Robert Lennon on Listening to Experts: How Curiosity Builds Better Business Decisions | Paper Napkin Wisdom Episode

I ended up having a vision of my own of what this could be. Understanding that it was unknown in North America, but looked at that as a major opportunity as that, hey, we're on the ground floor. We're not coming in at this as a saturated market. We're coming in at this as as something that is unknown. there's work to be done, there's a lot of groundwork to be done, but then if you have an opportunity to become the the pioneers, and that's got weight to it, and then people start to listen to you and people start to understand that you could you could become you know the the the go-to people. Hi, I'm Govindh Jayaraman and this is Paper Napkin Wisdom, episode number 373. And my guest today is Bob Lennon, president and CEO of Thermal Wood Canada. Bob's napkin says, My guiding principle has always been to surround myself with the expertise needed to succeed, then truly listen to the insights those experts provide. And as you hear those words, you might begin to notice something because most leaders say they listen. Most entrepreneurs say they value expertise and get lots of advice. Most people who have built something real know they can't do it alone. But there's a difference between hearing the advice and truly listening. There's a difference between collecting experts and allowing their insight to shape the next decision. And there's a difference between being surrounded by intelligence and being willing to be changed by it. Bob learned that over 33 years in mining. Where every role, every problem, and every unexpected assignment became part of his education. Then he carried that lesson into a completely different world. Thermally modified wood, a new technology in an old, old industry, a premium product launched to the market in 2008, just as the building economy, especially the economy, was moving in the other direction. And yet, instead of pushing harder, Bob listened. Closer. He listened to architects, he listened to builders, he listened to guitar makers, he listened to people in his own region who were carrying stories, relationships, and keys that could open doors that he had not even seen yet. And as you listen to this conversation, you might find yourself thinking about the experts already around you, people that you trust, people you hired, people you have access to. People whose insight you may have heard before, but maybe not fully received. Because sometimes the next opening is not found by doing more. Sometimes it's found by listening differently. The conversation with Bob Lennon is about curiosity, humility, trust, and the quiet discipline of letting other people's expertise matter. And like every great napkin, it is simple enough to carry with you. Surround yourself with the expertise needed to succeed, then truly listen. Let's dive into my conversation with Bob Lennon. Bob Lennon, welcome to Paper Napkin Wisdom. I'm excited to have you here with me today. Well thank you very much Govin Govin. I'm I'm I'm looking forward to the discussion we're gonna have. Yeah, me too. Um, so uh you sent a a really interesting well, your team sent an interesting pitch, and you've got this really interesting company, and I'm sure we're gonna talk about all of this stuff. and and let's start with your with your napkin. You said my guiding principle has always been to surround myself with the expertise needed to succeed, then truly listen to the insights those experts provide. Why did you share that with me? Well, you know, we can't know everything. And I kind of looked at it all through my my life, my working life, was really be able to try to value everybody's uh insight, everybody's expertise and bring it to light and and because I can't know everything is that you know, surrounding yourself with all the right people and building that network, and that's probably a better way of of putting it, is that building that network around you will allow you to succeed. And so got a vision of where you want to go and you know what has to be done in between. You realize the things that you don't know and make sure that you've got somebody that can fill that void and pay attention to what they're doing. Don't discount anything that they bring to the table because they might have something that You never really considered or thought about, and if you can figure out a way and how to make that work and how to make it link, then you've got a winning team. So uh yeah, you y you they said a lot there and you can't know everything and you can't know everything especially when you take your you know, a career in the mining industry. So th you you start off in the mining industry, Bob, and then you know, mining is obviously a tumultuous industry, down and up and down and up based on commodity pricing and other things and technology. But then you step away and you go to thermal wood, right? So this this thermally modified wood. And and you and and you know, people who think about lumber, they think about it in the modern in the context of 2026 where you know ev uh it's it's been surging for a little bit since co since COVID. But you launched the company in 2008, where there was another thing happening in the industry. The the market was going a Totally different direction. So you're getting into the wood industry, premium wood industry, a modified wood industry, at a time when the market's going the other way. Yeah. And a new technology in an old mature market and like you said, the market's going another way. So two things where the current's going against ya. You know, one It's an old mature market and it's an old boys club and it's not easy to get into. All right? That's the first thing. And the second thing is is that, you know, four months after we started uh you know, everything went down the sewer and so it was like oops. uh the word pivot became a household word in our house in two thousand and eight. We didn't wait for twenty twenty twenty for that word to appear on the on the horizon. It was it was with us well early in the in the game. so that was an interesting part. But you know the I spent thirty three years in the mining business. And so, you know, you're you're thinking about the links and everything else that happens in between. And the mining industry for me was my university. Uh You know, I graduated with an engineering degree but I didn't know anything after graduation. So, you know, I worked in public paper industry for for a couple of years and then pivoted and and moved into the mining industry. But the mining industry was really my school. That's where I learned and that's where I I got to know that, you know, paying attention to what, you know, people got to say, it had in many cases had nothing to do with what their education was. It had to do with their experience was, what they were good at and how they got around to make things uh go and one of the the things that I seemed to have a natural knack to was to be able to build relationships with people. And so that was at an early onset. because even in in the mining industry which prepared me for this one, it prepared me for for you know, two thousand and eight when th when the market crashed. It prepared me for figuring out what to do because I was thrown into the deep end on a regular basis in the mining world. You know, it was thirty three years, but I ended up in thirteen different roles during that period of time. And each role that I took on was completely different from the previous one and it just learning new skills as you're going through and kept on building the network. But it prepared me for this business. You know, at one point in time, I was uh twenty six years old. I was running a department with a hundred and thirty people and I had a a two point eight million dollar uh maintenance budget. And so when you're playing around with that kind of money at that age with that much responsibility, it teaches you a lot of stuff. It makes or breaks you. Like, you know, I I didn't go to school for this, I went to the school of hard knocks for for to get all this experience. But it was the the stepping stone for the wood business. So then stepping into the to the wood business and like I mentioned a while ago, new technology in an old mature market, I could make a whole bunch of links and tie things together and relate to to experiences that I had. And because I had been in a number of different roles and m my career in the mining industry ended when I was one of the senior directors at uh in the in the mining operation that we had. So So it allows me to to you know, we say sometimes there's no difference between being at the bottom of the ladder and being top of the ladder, but there is. And so you need to be able to talk that language and be able to navigate that that route and the mining industry was all allowed me to be able to do that. That's amazing. So was it was it the industry that allowed you to do it? Was it your perspective and your and you talked about this earlier on, building that network, right? You said valuing other people's expertise and building that network was really important. Was that something you learned or was that something you were you observed and and got mentored in trying to bring into your own life? Well, I guess that, you know, I I learnt and was mentored in my early career in the in the mining industry and and got to know see the mining industry and the and the wood industry are compl they're both re natural resources, but the culture within both of those industries are are day and night. Uh the mining industry, because the way that it's set up and All the minerals that any of the mines bring out, no matter what it is, whether it's gold or silver or whether it's it's lead or zinc and that was the the world I was in, there was no competition because everything is sold into the London metal exchange and so nobody's competing on trying to get a better price because no matter where we are in the world, that's the price you get. But everybody was was trying to figure out how you become the lowest producer, lower cost producer. So we're always trying to learn from each other and trying to figure out, all right, how do you do this and how do you do that? And between mining companies, that information was shared back and forth. Now, in the wood industry, that information doesn't share as easily. It's it's a lot more difficult to uh to to get that information out of people but if you're able to build a relationship where people feel comfortable with you when they trust you uh then all of a sudden that information flows a little bit better and then you learn. And so I've been learning since day one when I stepped into to this world and again I really had to apply the same uh philosophy that I put down on the napkin is pay attention and listen to what the people that have been in the industry know and not walking in and say, I know it all. I think that's I think it's really important. So let's let's talk about this. I mean and and you learnt it in mining and then you applied it in wood. You're coming in to a brand new industry and y and Bob, you're no longer a spring chicken, but let's but you called it an old boys network when you joined in, right? So you were you were not part of that network. They probably were looking at you as competition. uh And and you're bringing a technology that really wasn't popular in North America. So you're doing things a new way. You're the new guy on the block. How did you how did you start building that network? Well again i again it's going in and and you know, not being the the one that knows everything, but going in and a in a bit of a different approach and saying, Listen, we're we're starting out in here. This is the product that we have and explaining exactly what we had as a as a product and looking to I guess that that we came at it from a problem solving approach. Because thermally modified wood has a a number of different characteristics that have uh been able to resolve problems for for some. Example, you know, uh in today's day and age, a uh there's a growing momentum to look for green products, you know, products that don't use chemical additives. And so when we came to the table with a process that only used heat and steam to make wood resistant to rot, then all of a sudden, you know, you see a little glimmer in somebody that they want to be able to listen to you. And so then you you you talk about that a little bit and then you ask them, so how does this fit in yours? And what are some of the issues and could this be something that that you would you would use. Uh stability of the wood is very important because the wood becomes hydrophobic. We have changed the wood at a molecular level that makes it hydrophobic. So it doesn't take any moisture from the air, so you don't have the uh the swelling and contraction that you would normally have in regular wood, which has been problematic in many, many, many different applications. And then you just go around and say, you know, asking the questions, well What kind of problems do you have? And can that be resolved in in a piece of wood that's more stable? Or can it be resolved in a in a piece of wood that is is rot resistant? And oh guess what? The wood becomes darker in color and looks more exotic, and you're not really crazy about getting uh species of wood that comes from the rainforest, and let's not tear that down because we care about the panel. And so You just kind of align things with what is their story, what's their problem, and how can you work together to be able to resolve and solve that issue. That's great. So, you know, I I I I see this curiosity of approach, right? And and you talked about that as it relates to entering the market. And maybe it'd be useful to take a few steps back. So thirteen roles in thirty three years in the mining industry, which probably took some curiosity, right? You got curious about different roles in the company, in the industry and moved around. So you brought that curious mindset and then, you know Let's evolve a little bit further and then you get to to the ending of your mining career and the opening the door, let's say, to the the thermal wood chapter of your life. How did you come upon thermally modified wood? I mean, 'cause it wasn't popular in North America in the in the two thousands. And I'll even say it wasn't really a thing until, you know, maybe maybe even ten years ago, people started to hear about it, I think. no, no, you're absolutely right. You know, nobody knew about this stuff, so you know, we had to we had to educate. But how how I came about this is that the mine that I was working at was in my hometown and uh it was close in Bathurst, New Brunswick. So east coast of Canada, uh one of the ten biggest underground uh zinc mines in the world. So no one around the world. And I was very, very fortunate that I was able to do my whole career here working at the mines. And then we also had a lead smelter in Belduin, which was just uh, you know, in the opposite direction from my home, but but the same directions, same mileage, but in two different directions. And so I spent some time at at one operation and came back and at the mines to finish my career. But the mines was closing. We were closing because we were running out of resources. And because I was one of the senior directors, had been there for thirty-three years. They had invested a lot of time and money in me and uh the decisions were that I was going to be transferred to another facility till I decided to to retire. But all the other facilities that they planned on sending me to because I was also a problem solver and got things done were on another continent somewhere. And my uh my wife and my my two kids weren't really crazy about moving and I do remember having a conversation once and saying, Sweetheart, we're not gonna stop you uh with your ambition and your career. but maybe you might wanna think about getting another postal code because we're keeping this one. And so that became whoa, okay. Nobody's following me on this move, so you know, I better start thinking about what I might want to do. And just about the same time, my brother in law, who was already in the wood business, but what he was doing, he was more in the harvesting side. So he had all the equipment to go out in the forest and cut down the trees and take off the branches and get it prepared for a sawmill somewhere. And he was getting he had been in that business for about twenty five years. Uh and he was really fed up of it. He was, you know, twenty, thirty below zero and ten feet of snow, changing hydraulic hoses was was uh starting to be a little bit long on the tooth. So he was always looking for something else. And so he was out actually on a on a fact finding mission to look at a new piece of equipment because they always had to be able to be an upgrading to be more efficient to have more measurement tools and so on and so forth on the equipment. And he's the one that across this technology. And when he came across the technology, he just looked at it and he had a vision of seeing this as the uh you know, the story of the future and where things were gonna go. So he shows up at my house and drops a whole armful of samples on my dining room table and he said, Here, this is the future, help me put a business plan together. So my original taste of this was the research to be able to put a business plan together. But as I dug deeper and deeper in this and seen what was there, I ended up having a vision of my own of what this could be. Understanding that it was unknown in North America, but looked at that as a major opportunity as that, hey, we're on the ground floor. We're not coming in at this as a saturated market. We're coming in at this as as something that is unknown. Yes, there's work to be done, there's a lot of groundwork to be done, but then if you have an opportunity to become the the pioneers, and that's got weight to it, and then people start to listen to you and people start to understand that you could you could become you know the the the go-to people. So, you know, we had a a goal set out that we wanted to be the uh the people that knew the most in thermal modification of hardwoods. And And especially hardwoods that were never a species that were allowed to play in markets for exterior applications. You know, maple and birch and ash and oak were always species that were bound to be uh flooring or furniture or countertops, but never to be decking or siding or outdoor furniture and that kind of stuff. And so I could see this as being an opportunity to open up those doors and to be able to grow a market that hadn't seen this kind of stuff before and be you know, be new, be different. And then it all came back to how we could transform and have Thermalwood Canada and differentiate in ourselves from the operators that were in Europe because this was big in Europe, you know, the European market knew it. So as you mentioned, two thousand and eight, you know, market crash, trying to start off One of the things that we recognize is ex exactly what you said a minute ago, Golan, is that nobody knew about this, right? It was new and and it had to had to break through. And we recognize that. So it put us into uh a role that we had to educate people. And so get a get in front of as many architects that you could to deliver a one hour presentation to explain what it was. But then when when covet hit And Our original business model was to offer the service of thermal modification. So you bring us your wood, we treat it, we give it back to you, you develop your own products. But when you're in a recession, developing your own products is an expensive proposition. Nobody wants to do it. And so when the recession really hit, and we lost all our customers within a a very short period of time, and we had to figure out how to pivot, what we ended up doing is is looking and said, okay. We can't hit the North American market, but it needs to be educated. So we need to continue on an educational process for that specific geographic or market area. But there are areas in the world that that know the technology, understand the technology, do not need the educational process. But here we because most of the operators in Europe were most I I can almost say about ninety five percent of them were doing softwoods. And here you've got a a group of guys that don't know what they're up to that are starting off in Canada but they want to focus in on hardwoods. Well, let's look at this and and you know, I remember one of my clients in in Austria, I proposed maple to him and he couldn't even pronounce maple. It was maple to him, and but he had never seen it before. You know, they knew oak, but they didn't know anything else. And so that gave us a a big competitive advantage, so we moved our thought process to Europe, but the other part was is that we could not turn around and ask the Europeans to send us their wood so we would treat. It had to be our wood to differentiate ourselves. So then we had to get into the manufacturing side. and develop products. So then the product development became part of our pivotal point. And so we kept on educating, we pivoted to manufacturing and we focused on another geographical area to keep us alive. It's amazing. So wha what's really interesting, uh you know, I curiosity is really at the heart of all of this for you. I feel I feel like what happens is, you know, your brother in law shows up with a pile of wood, dumps it on your kitchen table, and says, Help me build a business plan, you're all of a sudden building this business business plan and vision. You have this vision for hardwood applications of of of this thermally processed wood, which it which you get pretty excited about. Now, I wanna uh I wanna pull people back a little bit because the the idea w when you're doing something new in an established market, it's almost like I remember so I I I spent some time in renewable fuel and we were talking about biodiesel. And every single time I would say biodiesel, people would say ethanol or say something else, right? They they'd hear my words, which doesn't sound anything like ethanol, and they'd say, Don't you mean ethanol? And it's like, No, no, I mean biodiesel. And then I'd have to tell them The whole story. And it sounds like you you almost would have had that same kind of challenge, right? You're talking about, you know, thermally processed wood or thermally treated wood. And I I bet you a lot of people would say, You mean pressure treated? And right? I mean, they'd almost say, No, no, no. You're you don't know your product. You're you're saying the wrong words. I understand this thing. Don't you mean that thing? And then you'd have to do an alignment. And this education process is pretty significant, right? It's it's and then And then it what what typically happens is that somewhere along the way, you meet some somebody, one person that helps you do that translation. Right? Where, cause I think that the challenge for most of us as leaders is not to shout in our own language, but to whisper in the language of our clients. And we have to learn how to whisper in their language. So what was that moment like for you when when you finally discovered the way to express this? Do you remember that moment? Is that vivid to you? Where where all of a sudden you started to be able to express what you were doing in a way that landed more universally? Yeah. I wouldn't say that it it's one particular moment or one pivotal moment. I think it's a combination of them together because depending on on who you're talking to and what country and where you're at and what market that they're in, is that a you know, whether they're in furniture or or decking and and everything else, they all have a different language. Like today we sell products in in five completely different markets. Like we have the residential commercial market where we do siding, decking, flooring, countertops, laminated panels for walls, as you can see behind me. those are the type of products that that go into buildings and dwellings where there's people that are walking around and and looking at things. But then we also we we cut components and we treat wood for the door industry. So the door industry, yes, they're into that residential market, but they've got specific a specific specific language again too for you know the styles and the cross members and the panels that you use. And so we're into that market with them and we do quite a bit in in there and I have a a couple of door manufacturers that I work with. And then we get into the outdoor furniture. And so the park benches, the mall benches, the garbage cans, the the the planters, all those things are are in a again bringing a different language to the uh to the table. And then one of them that spins off completely in another direction that has got you all spinning because it's got nothing to do with decking and stuff. It's the music industry. So we got involved in the music industry very early where we offered thermally modified wood to guitar builders. And now we deal with all the big guys. We deal with Fender, we deal with Gibson, we deal with Martin, we deal with with uh Ernie Ball. And all of those because what we found out as we were going, it wasn't just the color they were looking at, the stability was a problem. Remember I talked About a while ago is that problem. What solutions do you have? So the common link between each one of the markets that we're going at was always one of the characteristics that we're able to bring to the table as a solution to the problem that they were having. And so back to the music industry for a second, is that One is stability, but also what we found out through some research, there had been some research done in Germany where they identified that thermal modification was the same as thirty-five years of natural air drying of wood. And musicians or guitar players on an acoustic guitar specifically are always looking for that vintage sound. But an old vintage acoustic guitar in good shape isn't easy to find. And so with its process, now the big manufacturers like Martin and and Boucher guitars and these guys that that are building these these types of guitars, they can buy thermally modified wood, now giving that vintage sound to guitars that everybody was looking for in the first place, so now we can go into mass production. And but it's coming back to Each one of those different markets would All had different problems, but they were all different problems that the characteristics of thermal modification could could respond. So it's uh whenever you're having a discussion with anybody, it's learning some more keywords and language, and then being able to link it to what what you're already doing, and then bringing it back to them and saying, All right, you're talking about pressure-treated lumber here. So, what is it that you really like about pressure-treated lumber here? And let's see how I can take this. to a different a different place for you. And so that's how it happened and how it worked. And and again, I like your your words about curiosity because I'll dive into a conversation with anybody and then start asking those questions. really? Okay. Tell me a little bit more about this. And then it just everything just links. And when I have a chance to be able to to throw something in and then I do. And that's how I've been able to link it. So it's not really one particular place or time, it's a series of them that have happened that kind of blurs the timeline of when all this stuff happened, but it has it has grown substantially. Yeah. Uh so I I wanna talk about all those different industries because they're so different. Especially, you know, um you talked about the residential you know, residential applications, you talked about door industries, furniture, and the music industry, which is so different. You know what what brought you into music? Like w was it was it that you heard something around around the aged wood? Was it W what brought you there? What brought us there is that originally there's there's a local company here that's about twenty four twenty, thirty minutes away from us and and he became an an investor with us when we first started. And um he focused in on birdseye maple and curly maple and he had a business that he had uh supplied these types of woods for guitar necks and guitar bodies to some of these companies. And he had been working with a broker for for a number of years. And so at the time I was looking for investors, you know, and how did we start this? Because you know, this was uh a four point five million dollar startup and and I needed some people that had some cash in the area so you know I banged on every door and everybody I knew. Um and so He had a problem. And his problem was is that he had all this beautiful wood, but the music industry wanted white. Like as clear white wood as you can. And they didn't want any mineral stains, they didn't want any spots, they didn't want this, didn't want that. And, you know, the first question that got asked me is that well, what happens when you thermally modify it? I said, Well, when you thermally modify it everything goes brown. I said, Well, what about these spots? And I said, I haven't done a whole pile bile of stuff yet, but I would assume that uh that these uh spots or mineral stains or streaks disappear because you know you get a little bit darker and stuff like that. Okay, well here's some wood, go test it. And so we did. And guess what? those mineral stains and those those lines disappeared. So now all of a sudden we were able to take the waste that he was creating of beautiful wood, but it was considered waste because of the specifications that we were, and we were able to change that. So we changed it and then through his network, he went in and uh and brought that to the table. And uh with Fender was the first ones that it got brought to. So he If you're gonna do a a uh a test run with somebody, yeah, pick somebody big. And Fender is is probably one of the biggest ones. Yeah. in the other room, so Yeah. So, you know, now all of a sudden, you know, this is who you're playing with. And so, you know, coming back to my napkin, right, I'm paying attention. I'm paying attention to what they're saying. And so we were the first ones through the door. you know, when we started, we were probably selling, I don't know, twenty to thirty guitar necks every quarter, okay? And now I treat fifteen thousand a month. Wow. You know, so things have have uh have have definitely changed and to the point that and the reason why we got to those numbers is that Fender turned around because Fender took all the the the charactered wood if I can call it that one. It's the you birdseye and the curly had different grades. But they also had another uh level of guitars that they were putting out that only had regular map it in it with no character whatsoever. And they had a a huge supplier that would supply them. They turned around to their supplier they said, We want our wood thermally modified that we get from you. And the only guys will allow to thermally modify it is Thermalwood Canada and Bathurst and Brunswick. So that kicked off a a a growing and and in much bigger steps, right? We weren't going from forty to sixty to seventy to eighty. We were going from a thousand to two thousand to six thousand to seven thousand to ten thousand, and things were growing in in in those leaps and and bounds. And then that company, they started uh finding other clients that were interested and started supplying them so the numbers got bigger. And then they got into looking at uh at pool cues. So I think last year we might have treated a little bit over two hundred thousand pool cues. And the reason why pool cues is 'cause it's very stable. What's the first thing that you do when you go play pool? You put down your your your your pool cue on the table and you roll it. And if it wobbles, you throw it in the corner. Yeah. Well, the uh our wood is very stable so that it brings it resolves another problem. And so those are the kind of things that that we grow. So I guess the other important element of that is that using other people's networks to be able to to grow market and working with them because then that allows you to uh to open things up. You know, the Fender were the first ones and then I started listening to everybody that that was in the music world that were having an issue with getting ebony. So ebony used for fingerboards on guitars. And so You know, it's on the extinct species list, it's getting harder to go get, it's getting more expensive. The administration work that was uh behind all of the uh importing of an ebony were getting to the point that people and and companies the size of Fender had people uh on staff that all they were doing was uh was filling out paperwork to be able to move the product from point A to point B and then to point C. they asked me the question, it's well Can you thermally f modify to the point that the wood is black? Well, the answer is no. It's gonna get too brittle, it's gonna be charcoal and fall apart. But again, you know, my DNA is well, all right, well there's a a problem. How can we resolve this? And we ended up of uh creating a product that we call obsidian ebony, which is a real wood alternative for ebony, but using maple, which is sustainable in our part of the world. And so we thermally modify maple and then we put it into a pressure vessel and we infuse resins under pressure through the wood with dyes and then we cure them in place. And that three step process gives us a product that's black. And looks like ebony and it's a real wood alternative. So now that's a new market that we're we're starting to grow and and again we're using our experience that we had with growing thermal wood and taking this to a a different space. Yeah, you know, one of the things that I think is really amazing so for people who are listening, I just I know where Bathurst is, I've been to Bathurst, but how many people are in Bathurst? Fourteen thousand. Yep. I I I need this to be in context for for people listening. I I I firmly believe that there's somebody in all of our orbits that is literally walking around with the keys to unlock an opportunity for us. And it's up to us to truly listen to the insights of those people. And that's right on your neckbone. Truly listen. Not just superficially listen, but truly listen to the insights of those people. So that we can gain access to helping them solve the problem, which actually gets them to open the keys. Right. They they they share their keys openly with us when that happens. So how far away is this investor from you? This this this partner that opened this opportunity? So 25 minutes away from Bathurst, where there's a population of 14,000 people, there was somebody walking around with a pair of keys. That opened you up to a 15,000 a month unit opportunity with the largest guitar manufacturer in the world, which is a relationship that's grown and grown and grown. And I think that's the part that a lot of us miss. And I think that you've been really just very diligent, and I think you're really humble, Bob, about this nature that you have of truly listening to the insights and and attracting these people. Because let's also put it this way, it's a really important thing to consider. You you started off thermal wood in an economic model that you were effectively toll producing, which means that you're taking other people's stuff, moving them through your facility, and then sending it out, but you're charging them for the processing piece in the middle, but they hold the inventory. And that's what toll production does, right? What what your model had to change in an instant around. was that you were holding the inventory when you moved to production. And that would have changed the f the financial model dramatically, didn't it? Right? But you wouldn't have been able to achieve that again without truly listening to the insights of those experts around you and finding a way to do that too, right? Because there's a capital there's a capital model that went from four and a half million to something much bigger than that pretty fast. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And the the the other part, if if you allow me to tell you another little story about how I listen to people and how it's it's our marketing. I don't know if you were planning to talk to me about that or not, but I'm gonna bring it in because our marketing that we do is completely off the wall and it has nothing to do with the wood industry. So the wall, no pun intended. Yeah yeah off the wall off the wooden wall, no pun intended, yeah. But I do a podcast every week and I post on Friday, it's called the Northern Heat, and it all stemmed from my love of this community and when the mines closed Everybody considered that this area and was going to in the Schler region here where I live was going to turn into a ghost town. Mining companies in Ontario, northern Ontario, and you probably know about that, is that you know when the mines closed the the everything closed around this. It was the only industry, right? And so Bathurst was no different. You know, we had we had this world class mining operation that, you know, at closure there was still fifteen hundred people working there, but at one point in time there was three, four thousand people working there. And so it it brought livelihood to the region and people were totally concerned that when the mines closed that everything would fall apart. And so but I traveled a lot. You know, working at the mines, I had opportunities to go all over the world and and meet different people, learn different things, bring it back and stuff. And one of the things I realized Is that we have so much to offer in our region. It's scary. You know, all those keys are all here. You know, you're talking about keys. They're all here. It's just that we don't realize that they're there. And so using your your uh your point there about the keys, we started a podcast that was talking about discovering all those keys, discovering all those stories that hadn't been discovered yet. And so I started interviewing people about the stuff that we felt that they were turning on the heat. We're in northern New Brunswick. They're turning on the heat. They're doing something different. They're doing something that should be recognized, but isn't. And so how can we be the voice of all these these small voices that have something to say and they're sitting there going, Hey, pick me. I've got this key that can help you open up a different market or can help you resolve your your problem. So in 2018, I already knew him, but I I got to know him again. Uh gentleman called Gare Maxwell, and Gare was a brand specialist that kept talking to people about the way you build your brand is all about your story. And we care about the community and we care about the people here and we care about this region. And on top of that, we just want to be able to show people who we are. So he helped me start putting this podcast together. And since then, um you know, roll that ahead and the podcast is still is been going on for six years now. So roll that ahead to today. And in twenty twenty-five, the podcast reached four point three million people and that listened to it, that viewed it. Okay. And so those four point three so the analogy I'm using here is a baseball diamond. So create as much chatter as you can. Put people on first base. You don't need a home run. All you need is base hits. That's how you're going to make how you're going to score. So put a whole pile of people on first base. So we create chatter today: Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. I have a team now that helps me just put content out there. And so, but if I just use the content that we have for the podcast, so 4.3 million views are Sitting on first base. Out of that, there's a group of people that look at this and they say, Who's Bob Lennon? What's a Northern Heat? What's Thermalwood Canada? And they Google us. Well, the minute that they Google us, it gets into second base, but it does another phenomenon is that it has an impact on the Google algorithm and it pushes it up to the first page. So now I've got a group of people that are sitting on second base because they went through first and they were curious. And then I got a group of people coming in from Outfield somewhere into second base because they found us on uh on Google and they're sliding to third base because they're asking us for a quote. When they get to third base, that's where we get to talk to them. We built a a virtual trust between first and second base, and now they get to know us on a one-to-one basis because we're talking to them on the phone, we're sending them emails, we're sending we're having Zoom calls, team calls, we're having discussions with them. And our whole role, and my sales team, which is myself and Jason, what we do is that we're more like consultants and we listen to what they have to say, so we're back to the napkin again, and we figure out what their problem is, we help them resolve their problem, and at the end of the day, if that resolution might or might not be thermally modified wood. But we've helped them out. They're gonna remember this and they're they're gonna come back to us somewhere along the line. We have ah Eleven thousand people that go visit our website every month. And then out of that, people reach out to us on a daily basis looking for quotes. We don't make any cold calls. And you know, we're not chasing people down. So that's a different business model than anybody is used to in the wood industry. Because everybody normally is chasing somebody down. So let's remember fourteen thousand people in Bathurst, eleven thousand people come to your website every single month. And you're doing this because you're reaching out and telling stories about your beautiful part of the province. It's it's it's just a beautiful part of the province. I mean the province is beautiful everywhere, but beautiful part of the province. But I think it's really amazing that you're you're you're energy around all of this is just really authentic, right? You you truly love where you are, you truly love what you're doing, and all of that combines to make it interesting enough for 4.3 million people over six years to be able to find you, listen to you, understand those stories, um, and get curious themselves, right? Your curiosity is spurring other people's curiosity, which curiosity has an odd way of multiplying, doesn't it? yeah, it's like the old V O five commercial. Remember that used to be on years ago? Is it so on and so on and so on and so on? But that's exactly what's what's happening in this case, which is interesting. It's really interesting. So what's what's what's next for you? I mean, you got pool cues, you got guitars, you got fender guitars walking around with thermal wood. What what's what's the next crazy thing that you're gonna do? If you never know. You got any ideas? Uh but that's you know, that's the way that we are. You know, we're we're we're going down this this road and and if you pay attention when you're going down this uh this this trip of life that you're on, there's there's gonna be opportunities that are gonna be popping up. And when those opportunities pop up, it's like, Whoa, check this out and You know, about uh four or five months ago the the the premier of the province put a round table together uh with wood manufacturers and you know, it was all about the tariffs and and stuff that were going on and everything that was happening with our neighbors next door and how that was having an impact on our business. And uh She started asking questions to to people and said, Well, how's your business going? And as you went around the room, it was like, Oh, V Fi, full fum, you know, this is a problem and you know, well, I'm gonna lose my business and this is happening and I can't do this and I can't do this. And there was a lot of negativity in in the room. And and then like, you know It's it's real reality. But you know, it's so she comes around the room and and I know the premier, so she says, Well Bob, how about you? And I went, Opportunities and she goes, What? Everybody's complaining here and you're saying opportunities. Yes, I say opportunities because there's a couple of things that just happened lately with because what's going on in the world with our neighbors next door, there are now people in Europe that are Do not want to deal with the United States, and they're looking for different business partners, and they go and they they they Google different businesses, and that's what happened in my case of getting into the mega yacht world of of supplying wood for decks on these massive uh luxury yachts. And uh the gentleman that was sourcing wood out from them came from Spain. He Googled, found us. Did some research on who we were, found we were reputable, started looking at some of the podcasts, started trusting us that way, gave us a call. But again It's you can look at the glass half empty, but I'm always trying to look at the glass half full and figuring out there's always an opportunity underneath that silver lining. So listen to everybody that comes through the door, no matter what they're talking about, and there might be somebody there that takes you to the next level. So I can't really answer your question and pinpoint on what it is, but there's gonna be something. yeah, yeah. the the other thing that I think I I don't want to lose because it's such a really interesting idea. First of all, I I loved your baseball analogy. I think a lot of people have a different approach. You know, you you talked about this and uh this this get as many people on first base as possible, four point three million people, get them onto for first base. And then And then second base is when they do something about being on first base. That's them. But you only get to talk to them when they get to third base. And a lot of us, a lot of people on on in business are forgetting that we're not the ones who move them from second to third. They do. And it's our job to show up consistently enough that you move the trust bridge, right? You build the congru congruence of who you are and that you speak that, you act that, you talk that consistently enough that moves them from first base to second base. And then their curiosity moves them from second base to third base, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's doing all the movement between first and third. We think we have to move 'em. You're you've got a different approach. Yeah, I'm waiting for them to to work their way through because I'm not they've already made a decision and you know, you're not wasting a whole pile of energy trying to convince They've convinced themselves as you as you go through. And it's like the other day somebody called and and talked to Jason and after they were looking to to build a deck in their house and they were thinking maybe some siding and stuff. And after it was all over and they talked about products and Jason asked them the question, he said, So how did you find us? And they went Well we're flipping through ah Facebook and looking at different things and Your owner or the president of the company was interviewing these two uh older ladies and uh they were talking about a quilting weekend and it got us curious, so we listened to the whole thing and went, yeah. And then we Googled Thermalwood Canada and Bob Lennon and we found you guys and went, we're thinking of doing this. This is interesting. We never heard about this product before. And so for them it was it was a a a discovery, right? And then they call us. up and talk to us because the other thing we do very little distribution through organized uh distribution network everything comes directly from us and so they need to talk to us for for information but we're all wired the same way so that works out very very well That's incredible. So a a show, a podcast about quilting, got them onto thermal wood buying deck material. And that's but that but that's that's how it works, right? That's how that's the modern marketing frame framework that I think that you've really embraced. And it's really, I think it's really interesting that you know you've got this really old industry. pedigree. There's nothing older than mining and wood. You know, you've got this old industry pedigree, but you've got this new marketing philosophy and this genuine curiosity and love for the people in and around you that I think is infectious. And I think that that's what's helping draw people to you. Um Bob, we we end every episode with with the opportunity to shout out somebody, you know, give somebody some appreciation that has been important to your journey along the way. And it comes from a napkin that we received about uh twelve years ago from a great friend of the show. His name is John Rulin, and he suddenly passed away about a almost a year and a half ago now. And since that day, we've been paying forward his gift of gratitude by asking everybody else to appreciate somebody else. So Who would you like to shout out or appreciate today? Well I think I need to to to shut out the the the Schiller region, not just one person in particular, because our success has been from the people of our region and and and the people that we've been had an opportunity to tell their story. And if it wasn't for them, I wouldn't have a story to tell. And I wouldn't have one to pass on to what's to people all over the world. And it's just that we've been very, very fortunate to, you know have had Gare Maxwell come into our lives and and and show us a a different way of branding and then to have you know this beautiful canvas in front of us and and of the the Schalur region and all these different colors that we could paint the picture that we wanted to. So it's very difficult to kind of map out one particular person and you know having everybody there being able to make us and move us along and the fact of having this as a family run business. So, you know, my brother in law is here, my son's here, the dog's here, we're surprised I didn't hear her bark during the middle of the the conversation. My wife is here too, so you know, my family's here. This is my my home. Like I go home to sleep. I and but my life is spent here. And it doesn't it just flies by every single day and weeks just go by and and uh like uh I I like you mentioned a while ago, I'm no spring chicken. And but it's just the fact that that I can have all this support around me and the support is not just my family, the support is the community. And that just takes it to a another level. So I wasn't able to thank one particular person, but I'm thanking a region. I think I think that speaks a lot to your character. And for those of you who are not familiar with the Chalur region and what the word Chalur in French means warmth. And you know, thermal wood being based in the in the Chalur region, which is a warm region, around the Chalur Bay, is is it's a again a beautiful region. North American She, if people wanna look it up on a map, uh but absolutely beautiful part of the country and the province. Bob, thanks for joining me. Well thank you very much for having me on. It's been great to to talk to you and get your insight too at the same time. Very much appreciate it. That was Bob Lennon, president and CEO of Thermalwood Canada. And as that conversation settles in, there may be a question that stays with you: Who are the experts already around you? Not the experts that you need to go and find someday, but the ones who are already in your room, already on your team, already in your community, no matter how small that community is, the ones who are already carrying the insight, the relationship, the question, or the key. That might open the next door. Bob's napkin was simple. My guiding principle has always been to surround myself with the expertise needed to succeed, and then truly listen to the insights that those experts provide. And maybe that's the part that matters most. Not surround yourself, listen. Because many leaders gather smart people. Many founders hire experience and expertise. Entrepreneurs build teams, boards, networks, and communities. But the shift happens when listening becomes more than a leadership behavior. It becomes a way of seeing. Bob spent 33 years in mining, and that expertise does not always come from the title. He l carried the lessons into Thermalwood Canada, into a mature industry with new technology at a difficult economic time and kept asking better questions. What problem? Are you trying to solve? What language does the market speak? Does what does this person know that I don't? Where's the opportunity hidden inside what I'm hearing? And as you think about your own business, your own team, your own next chapter, you might begin to notice where certainty has been taking up way too much room. And you might begin to hear something differently. A comment from someone on your team, a question from a customer, a quiet signal from the market. That has been trying to reach you or teach you, an introduction from someone close by, a piece of wisdom from someone you already trust, because sometimes that next breakthrough does not arrive as a new strategy. Sometimes it arrives of something that has been staying and you've been saying for a little while. You're finally just ready to hear it. Bob also reminded us that trust can be built before the first sales conversation ever happens. Through story, through service, through the way a company carries its community with it, through the way curiosity multiplies when people feel seen. And that's one of the things that I will carry from our conversation. The expert you need may already be right here, right near us. The key already be, the key you need may already be in someone else's hand that you know, and the door may be closer than you think. So, if this conversation resonated with you, take a moment today and write down the names of three people whose expertise you have access to right now and ask yourself: have I truly listened to what they have been trying to tell me? And that is paper napkin wisdom. Small enough to fit in on a napkin and big enough to change your world. This has been episode number 373 with Bob Lennon. If this is your first time listening, I hope you give us a review and subscribe. If this Conversation. If you got all the way here to this part of the conversation, I hope you share it with somebody who matters to you. Make it a great day.