The Power Of Kindness - Episode 181

Speaker A: This season of Open Space Radio is brought to you by BCI Burke. Park and recreation professionals create spaces where communities connect, move, and thrive. BCI Burke is proud to support that work by designing outdoor play environments that inspire movement, exploration, and belonging for people of all ages and abilities. If you're attending the 2026 NRPA annual conference in Philadelphia, visit the Burke team at booth 625 in the exhibit hall to connect with the team and discover new ideas for your community. Learn more@bciburk.com.

Speaker B: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Open Space Radio, the official podcast of the National Recreation and Park Association. I'm your host, Court Jones, and I'm joined today by my co host, Christina.

Speaker A: Hi.

Speaker B: Hey, Christina.

Speaker C: Hey, Cort. So glad to be back.

Speaker B: Yeah, really glad to be back. And so excited about today's episode because one, it means we are getting closer to being in Philadelphia for the 2026 NRPA annual conference. And two, we're talking about kindness today, which seems to be a theme for some of the conversations we've been having recently on the podcast. And that makes me really happy. And we have a very special guest today, so let's just jump right into it.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker D: Would that be me? Wait, what?

Speaker C: Yes, that's you. We're so grateful to be joined by this year's conference keynote speaker, Shola Richards. Shola is leading a worldwide movement to change the world based on how we treat each other at work. He is the CEO and founder of Go Together Global, a bestselling author, and the host of the Kindness Extremist podcast.

Speaker B: Yeah. And something I found so interesting, in September 2021, uh, Shola was invited to testify in front of, uh, the United States House of Representatives on how to bring more civility to Congress, which is not an easy task by any means. Shola, do you think they can schedule you for, like, yesterday? Um, because that might be helpful as well. Um, but thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited for this conversation.

Speaker E: Oh, of Christina, thank you so much. It's so funny that you mentioned Congress, because clearly that went so well. They love the message. They're following it to the T. You know, it's interesting because I think this work is needed on so many levels. And we talked before we started recording, and Christina mentioned the importance of this message is being shared over and over and over again. So we don't get it the first time. We don't stop. We just keep doing it until it finally kind of seeps into the consciousness collectively. And that's what I'M hoping to do.

Speaker C: Mhm. Yeah, I love that. To start us off, for folks who might not be familiar with you and your work, can we get a little bit more background on you and maybe what has brought you into this point of your life where the power of kindness is, is so prevalent and strong and, and core to your belief system?

Speaker E: Yeah, gosh, I'll do my best to kind of keep it tight. So, yeah, I'm Shola, uh, as already mentioned, and I am a deep believer in kindness. So ever since I was young, I've been what's called a highly sensitive person. So HSP for short. We're talking about this before Christina and I, off camera. I feel things very deeply. So what this means to me and to.

Speaker D: And this about affects maybe like 15

Speaker E: to 20% of the human population where when I see things like unkindness in the world or just people just being mean spirited, whether it could be something small like someone being short or rude to the, uh, grocery store clerk, or someone being mean or cutting in front of someone in line, these things stick with me way longer than it probably sticks with the average person. So as a kid, I was bullied a lot. And I was bullied because I jacked up teeth that wouldn't stay straight. Thank God for braces, because they're straight now.

Speaker D: And I just kept asking this question

Speaker E: over and over again, like, why aren't people kinder to each other? In fact, I didn't really notice the difference between nice and kind. Maybe we'll get to that later. I was like, why aren't people nicer to each other? Why aren't people nicer to each other? And after God, 20 plus years of asking that question, I found myself in a really toxic work environment and I just had reached my capacity for receiving unkindness. I was like, I'm done, I'm done. And it was a dark moment, y'.

Speaker C: All.

Speaker E: And uh, to make a long story really short, I did something pretty awful during this time. I'll keep you in suspense until the keynote. Um, but it wasn't good when I reached the point of receiving my capacity for unkindness. But after this really dark moment, I decided that I was going to change everything. I was like, man, I've got to do something. I don't know what. But I got to figure out a way to bring kindness into the mainstream. And if you've noticed on social media, if you were to type like kindness in the search bar, what you'll see is a lot of social media accounts

Speaker D: like kindness Is free. Sprinkle it everywhere. It's, uh, like, great. But, like, how do we do this?

Speaker E: When you're dealing with community funding challenges that maybe parks are dealing with, or maybe in your personal life, you're dealing with a child that is dealing with mental health challenges, or you just found a really, uh, horrible health diagnosis or, God forbid, something else. We need practical tools on how.

Speaker D: Sprinkle it everywhere sounds lovely on a

Speaker E: poster, but how do we do it? And I'm obsessed with the how. And that's what I really want to bring to Philly coming up in September. I can't wait for that.

Speaker C: Yeah. And that was one of the things that I really enjoyed about listening to your podcast. It was very actionable.

Speaker E: Oh, uh, thanks.

Speaker C: Yeah, it was, like, definitely taking little nuggets and could tell that you wanted this to be passed along and not something that was just, like, in our passive mind. And that's a beautiful thing.

Speaker E: Thank you, Christina. I mean, I think, like, if we don't make it practical, then it just becomes theoretical, and theory doesn't change anything. It's like, I need to know how. So I'm a very practical guy. Like, how do I do this? Okay, cool. Like, I look sometimes at Ikea instructions. I, like, see, like, the pictures.

Speaker D: I'm like, I need someone to tell me what I'm supposed to do. I'm so confused. When I look at this, I see this weird cartoon person. I'm like, what am I supposed to do?

Speaker E: So I just need how. I need how. I need how more than anything. And that's what I'm big on. So with a podcast, and quite frankly, with the keynote coming up, I really want to make sure that I leave these powerful folks with techniques on how to bring real kindness to their communities, to their parks, and to themselves.

Speaker B: Well, and, I mean, I'll double down on what Christina said, too. And I think, like, people may not necessarily know that they need the how until they realize they need the how. That was something that I appreciated so much about listening to your podcast, too, is, like, you're like, here are three practical tips that you can implement. And that was just like. I was like, oh, that makes it so much more, like, accessible and, like, real than, like, be kind. And it's like, we all like to think we know how to be kind, but we kind of all don't like me. M. And so I think, like, giving the how, I think that's so key. And I really appreciate that that's how you are approaching this work, because people don't know how to do the thing until they get those, like, really practical, tangible steps. And so I just love your approach to that.

Speaker E: Thank you. I, uh, love that people are kind of digging it. And to your point, Cord, I mean,

Speaker D: I think I don't know how many

Speaker E: people maybe I could be wrong, would admit to being. I'm unkind.

Speaker D: Flat out, I am really, like, that's the hill you're going to die on. So most people don't know.

Speaker E: I think there's a lack of self awareness that's there that they don't actually know that they're being unkind. And my hope is that I can kind of give a little way of kind of helping them with it. And by the way, I didn't talk to you about this before, but since we're getting recorded, might as well say now. I have a free resource that I can give to the listeners. Self, uh, assessment to see how well they're doing with this kind of stuff.

Speaker D: Totally free of charge. Just take it. You get a score at the end

Speaker E: and you can see how you're doing. And I think it's a great way to kind of build some self awareness. So if you want me to send the link in the show notes, as a podcaster, sorry, can't help it. Um, happy to share it if you're interested.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that would be wonderful. We love free things and also free things that are making us better humans, I think, are the best. So I love that. Um, I want to dive into something that I think often gets. And you, you named it Shola. Uh, but the difference between being nice and being kind. And so I think those two things get so often grouped together and people are like, oh, well, I'm nice, you know, and so in your words and experience, I would love to hear that, like, distinction from you.

Speaker E: Yeah, the distinction is huge. So when you think about the difference between nice and kind, you could argue it's a matter of depth. And that's kind of the simplest way to put it. But nice by definition just means being polite and agreeable.

Speaker D: And as we can all agree on

Speaker E: this podcast interview, that is a super low bar.

Speaker D: It really is. I mean, think about, like, the worst

Speaker E: human being, you know, which probably shouldn't take us very long. I can guess it's true.

Speaker D: Sadly, even if when you're thinking about

Speaker E: that person, I guarantee you that you can probably imagine this person saying a please or a thank you.

Speaker D: So having superficial pleasantries tumble out of

Speaker E: your mouth is really the bar, and

Speaker D: that's on the floor, it's as low as it can get, it's as easy

Speaker E: as you can do.

Speaker D: And if you think about it, even the most niceness is the birthplace for passive aggressiveness. We've seen it all the time where people are like, oh my gosh, like, wow, it's nice to see that you actually kept your park clean for a change. So much different than the last time I was here. Like, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's just the basic stuff.

Speaker E: Kindness by definition is demonstrating through your actions that you genuinely care about another person. And it's so much harder. It's showing up when it's hard inconvenience, uh, inconvenient for you, and when it costs you something.

Speaker D: So when I think about the easiest way to put this. Nice is something that you do.

Speaker E: Kind is something that you are.

Speaker D: I mean, if you think about this, when you think about when you go

Speaker E: to a park, for instance, what real kindness is, it's kind of this reminder consistently that the kid that's showing up

Speaker D: to that park, you might be the only adult who has been kind to that kid in the past week. Or like a senior's coming to the rec center, for example, you might be having the first real in depth conversation with that person of the day, of a month, of a year. Who knows? Like that is what it means to

Speaker E: be locked into this moment of kindness.

Speaker D: It's deeper than just saying please and thank you.

Speaker E: It's being present, it's looking at someone, it's understanding maybe that they could be struggling and you're standing up for something that is timeless. The willingness for humans to be seen in a world that doesn't often see them. And I don't take that lightly. And I don't think the people in the park should either.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. You never know how close someone is to their, their final negative interaction or, you know, if they're a first time participant in a program or um, first time park goer. And it's incredibly nerve wracking and anxious for them to go out into a new space and to experience something that's unknown, that's terrifying for everyone. And to uh, you know, to be faced with negative words is, you know, just like the perfect thing to deter them from returning. Yeah, really love that.

Speaker E: And to that point, Christina, I mean, when you think about parks, at least the way that I think about them, I think parks are like the last true public, free everyone, welcome space in our country. I mean really, you think how divided

Speaker D: we are off racial, uh, Lines, political

Speaker E: lines, income lines, whatever. This is like the one place where a four year old of one background, he'd be playing with another four year old of another background. And it's not like, whoa, hold on a second, are you a Republican or a Democrat? Have you chosen Jesus as, uh, your Lord and savior?

Speaker D: Like, no, they're not doing these questions. It's just like, hey, let's play together. And it's a beautiful thing because it's one of those rare moments of complete,

Speaker E: untethered equality that everyone can enjoy. And that's a space where kindness can proliferate in a way that maybe you couldn't in a classroom or in a workplace or in a community, like inside of a business or apartment or something like that. That's the beauty of parks. And I just want to make sure that the people who are running the parks that give so much kindness to everyone else of their communities that they take a minute to redirect some of that kindness back to themselves so they

Speaker D: have the capacity to continue giving this kindness to others. It's like everyone else can get the kindness. We're going to build events so everyone have joy. It's so wild. They're doing this, giving people joy and rest. So, um, on those park goers days off, they can enjoy the park, but their days off are not the people working the parks days off, they're working. And so we're not constantly finding a way to make sure that we're renewing

Speaker E: the people who are enabling the space to exist as a peaceful place in the first place. And that's really what I'm going to be pouring into folks in Philly.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that you said that. I feel that that's such a huge piece of this work. And yeah, especially in parks and recreation and yeah, generally to treat yourself with kindness first. And it is so easy to not do that. And so I love that that's going to be the focus point.

Speaker E: Oh, uh, cannot wait. I'm fired up right now. I just want to, I was sharing before, just like, give me everything for me to like start flipping tables over here in my house and scaring my dog.

Speaker D: Like, what's his problem?

Speaker E: Uh, why is he so excited? Because he loves the park. I could tell you that that's his favorite spot. So I just, I just find this work to be so inspiring to me and to be able to speak at this conference is one of the most exciting parts of my 2026. I really, sincerely cannot wait.

Speaker B: Well, we are just, I mean, we're so Stoked. And I also love that that's going to be something that you're going to be focusing on, because we. I mean, we find that that, like, the compassion fatigue, the service fatigue, like, that all of that stuff is very real. And, oh, yeah, when people are so focused on community, it's often more challenging to step back and focus on themselves. And so one thing that I did want to ask you about, you know, when. Especially when things like resources are thin, demands are high on the folks working in these spaces, kindness kind of can often fall to the wayside. Um, I was listening to your episode on the radical act of rest, and I love that one. Spoke to me so much because I was like, oh, yeah, I'll say I'm resting, but I'm literally, like, doom scrolling or, like, binging something on Netflix. That's not rest. And how would you say that, like, leaders and frontline staff who are, like, creating these spaces can continue to emphasize why park and recreation professionals should prioritize rest and in turn, kindness, even during some of the most challenging times, whether it's budgets or the politics of it all or their communities facing a very specific challenge.

Speaker E: I am so glad, Cort, that you mentioned that, because I get so fired up about this. We often have this weird idea that rest is for the weak. You know, you hear a lot of hustle, culture silliness around.

Speaker D: They're like, oh, you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead. Let's go. Man up. I'm like, oh, uh, gross, y'. All, Come on.

Speaker E: Look, if we're really serious about bringing our best to our families, to our work, we have to do one of the most important things ever, which is unplug.

Speaker D: A lot of people think resilience is,

Speaker E: like, just finding a way to keep going so we don't break. But the reality is, real resilience is having the wisdom to stop before we break and understanding what real rest is like. Significant rest. You already kind of touched on a court. It is restorative rest. So we're using this idea of, like, oh, my gosh, I finally have a day off. Let m me just go ahead and just, like, spend, like, three hours doom, um, scrolling on Instagram. Like, that's not. That's not the answer. I mean, uh, who in the world has ever said, you know what? Golly, man, I just need a real restorative rest. I need to find a place where I can go to renew my faith in the goodness of humanity. Let me go to my social media feed real quick.

Speaker D: Like, What? No one is saying that yeah, we do this, but scientifically, getting back to

Speaker E: the whole rest thing and what this matters for kindness and for the people who are in the parks, if we do not rest and we don't refuel, what ends up happening, unfortunately for every

Speaker D: single person, is that we're not able

Speaker E: to give our best to others. I'm a huge sports guy, I played college basketball. And I can tell you that the

Speaker D: most injuries that happen aren't from big

Speaker E: folks bumping into other big folks. What ends up happening is the injuries come from overuse and the same thing happens from work. If we're constantly burning ourselves out at the ends of our day, we have nothing left to give. Then that one interaction with someone who

Speaker D: may need you comes a little sharper, a little shorter. We have a, let's say you have

Speaker E: a 19 year old seasonal employee who's

Speaker D: at your park and you treat her like trash because she's not deserving of

Speaker E: the respect of a full time employee.

Speaker D: Because we're so depleted, we can't give that energy to this person. That's where this whole thing falls apart. And then that cascades to the park goer who that 19 year old has to deal with because she was treated poorly.

Speaker E: And on and on it goes. So the rest thing starts is not some indulgence that's going to allow us to be able to put our feet up during a workday, but what it means is doing intentional work to rest and renew so we can actually come back better. Not just for our parks, not just for our communities, but for ourselves.

Speaker D: God knows how stressed out you are. You already mentioned at court, there's funding challenges, there's community challenges, there's staffing challenges. And one thing that's always, I would assume, is concerning, like y' all don't even know what happens in your parks at night. That's going to be a concern, I would guess. So all these things are growing within us.

Speaker E: If we don't take the time to rest consistently, we're going to be ill prepared to deal with those challenges when they show up. And that's why rest is so important, specifically when it comes to the work of kindness.

Speaker C: Yeah. Being intentional about it, I feel like it's such a key component. It's, it's too easy to, you know, doom scroll, to binge and watch TV and those things. And to have a minute to be able to recognize that you need to go outside or you need to spend time with your dog or your family or stare at a tree for Goodness sake.

Speaker D: Yes. For a good touch grass.

Speaker E: Christina, can I add on to that?

Speaker D: Because, you know, it's like, this is

Speaker E: the most gangster move ever. And I hope someone listening to this will take me up on it. And Corey, if you listen to the episode, you already probably know where I'm going with this.

Speaker D: When you do choose to rest, I

Speaker E: think it is so important to tell others that you're resting and to do it without shame.

Speaker D: Like, hey, what are you doing this weekend, Shola?

Speaker E: I'm, um, resting.

Speaker B: Wait, what?

Speaker D: Yeah, just gonna rest. Not gonna do anything, just gonna chill. Do you know anyone who does that?

Speaker E: I don't.

Speaker D: So, like, it's such a hard thing

Speaker E: for real high level professionals to be

Speaker D: like, I'm just gon rest because what this does, this gives permission if you have children. I do. For my girls to know, like, oh, resting is okay. It's not something we have to feel ashamed of or have to like, kind of rush around and feel constantly busy resting because. Not because you deserved it or you earned it, you're resting because you're a human being who needs to rest so

Speaker E: you can go back to doing the work that matters. So I'm challenging anyone who listens to this to literally say out loud, I am resting. It's okay. Don't explain it. It's just okay. I'm, um, resting because that's what I'm going to do this weekend. And I think the more we can normalize rest, the better it'll be for us and for our capacity to build a kindness that's going to actually change the world and our parks too.

Speaker C: And it's kind of fun to share with someone who might not rest themselves that you're resting. You see their brain short circuit a minute and they're like, what? This is possible? I can just kind of hang out and not, you know, churn out productivity and numbers and. Yeah, it's fun.

Speaker E: Oh, gosh, Christina. I think the whole part of kindness really, the work is like to interrupt old patterns. And that what you just described is exactly it. That person's like, wait, that's a thing?

Speaker D: You're gonna rest? What?

Speaker E: And that's what it is. And like you said, you can see the person's gear starts to turn. If you do that, you're giving that person a gift. You're showing them what's possible in a world that doesn't really glorify rest that much.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's, I mean, it's so. It speaks to my soul in my like, uh, anti establishment. All the things like this is so like. I mean, you hear rest is resistance. It is like in a culture that. And you said it earlier, Shola, like, seems to celebrate productivity and constantly doing something. Rest truly is resistance. And the only way. It's like, we talk about systems change. This is like systems change within yourself. And so I really love that. Um, and yeah, I'm trying to model rest being important for my two year old. He doesn't get it right now. He doesn't want to rest ever. Uh, so he will, though.

Speaker D: I got teenagers, Trust me, he'll come around. But, you know, it's countercultural, right, Court?

Speaker E: I mean, I think that's the whole idea. It's like, you know, rest is resistance. I think joy in this time is

Speaker D: a form of resistance. I think whenever we're being countercultural to

Speaker E: what's happening in the ethos and we're standing up like, no, no, what? I'm not gonna allow myself to become embittered. I'm not gonna allow myself to become helpless.

Speaker D: I'm not.

Speaker E: I recorded an episode, what to do when, like, the world's on fire and you feel like there's nothing. The world feels hopeless and bleak. That episode is one of my favorite episodes because I think it's easy to feel like, God, uh, there's nothing that we can do. If you're working in a park and you're hear community challenges and they're coming to you and they're screaming about what's

Speaker D: wrong with the park, what's wrong with you.

Speaker E: It's easy to feel hopeless and hopeless and helplessness. The twins of despair are really tough to beat, but the only way that we can beat them is through action, through showing up for each other and throwing up for ourselves. And that's what I want to make really practical during the talk and often the work that I do.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's great. And I just want to add that it's also, you know, breaking up this repetition. And the cycle is. It's a. It's a brave thing to do. It takes a lot of courage to do the rest. You know, everything is built into our jobs. If we don't have a job, we don't have insurance, we don't have health care, our children are at risk, all of these things. And to kind of interrupt that. Yeah, it takes a lot. And if you're trying it for the first time or you have, you know, fears, know that that's normal. And it's a scary thing.

Speaker E: Well, courage is part of kindness at Least the kindness that I advocate for. I mean, I think that if you're dealing with a community that maybe is angry or maybe unkind or whatever you're dealing with, it's a profound act of courage, in my humble estimation, to not mirror that unkindness and to stay rooted in who you are, irrespective of the energy that's coming at you. That's not easy to do. I don't know anyone who can do that. It's like, oh, that's natural for me. Oh, then teach me how to do it.

Speaker D: It's not easy.

Speaker E: That work requires a profound amount of courage and, dare I say, wisdom, too, to be able to lean in and not match the energy of what's coming at you and staying rooted in who you are. That's why when people, when I see these memes like, kindness is free sprinkled everywhere, it frustrates me because to your point, Christina, it really sadly neglects the hardest aspects of kindness that requires this work to go on. And courage, perseverance, the willingness to hold boundaries, the willingness to prioritize your mental health. Scored said earlier reading. The need to rest. All these things are countercultural. And countercultural acts require a great amount of courage.

Speaker B: 100%. And you said joy is resistance. And I mean, so true. And I would love to get your take on how kindness compounds joy. And I think because Parks and Recreation, like, it's the joy business, you know, like, we are, like, parks and recreation is providing opportunities for folks to experience joy. And I mean, I mean, you've kind of alluded to this already, but, like, the joy, when the kindness is like the basis, the joy can, like, it is unlimited. And so I would love to hear your take on the relationship between kindness and joy.

Speaker E: Oh, gosh, that's so fun. I think they're super interconnected. So

Speaker D: I'll just give you a pretty

Speaker E: common example, I think, in parks. So summertime's coming up, at least one that's being recorded anyway, it is. So summertime's here and camp season's coming up. And I think about camp can be a very fun time for kids, at least it often is for my girls when they were little.

Speaker D: Or kindness is understanding that this. You have an opportunity to make a

Speaker E: kid's day at a park, at a camp, just by sitting with them, being joyful, being silly with them, having fun, tossing a baseball, throwing a Frisbee, jumping

Speaker D: in the pool, whatever it is that,

Speaker E: like, we're able to do within our jobs to make this kid's moment special.

Speaker D: That's kindness. And that kindness amplifies their joy. Now think about it like this. Some kids have social anxiety, right?

Speaker E: So they have to go to camp because mom and dad have to work and no one's at home to watch the kid or whatever it may be. So they're going to camp. And maybe they go to a camp and they don't have any of their friends there. That was something that happened to one of my younger daughters, my youngest daughter, and she was really, really scared about it.

Speaker D: The camp counselor, who not even the camp counselor, it was a camp counselor

Speaker E: and the person who worked at the park. So it was the two of them

Speaker D: work together to make my daughter feel

Speaker E: so welcome and to feel seen.

Speaker D: That act of kindness created something that was super anxious, anxiety producing for my kid into a moment of joy. So here it goes. This kindness turns anxiety into joy. This is the power of the work in understanding.

Speaker E: You don't know what moment is going to be the moment that people remember

Speaker D: for the rest of their lives. I guarantee there are people on this podcast, we're listening to it right now in their ear. It's like, you know what? There's a moment that you did for

Speaker E: someone that those kids are going to remember forever.

Speaker D: And here's the wild part. You may never even know about it. You may never get that circle back to you.

Speaker E: But I guarantee the person listening to this right now remember a moment, maybe in their park career or in their work career, where someone did something for them, they mentored them, they supported them, they did something through kindness that allowed you to feel joy.

Speaker D: They.

Speaker E: That's the work. And when we think about times right now, if you turn on the news, it's not super joyful out there if we're going to be real. This is why this act is so important now.

Speaker D: Because if we don't do it, who will? That's the responsibility that we have.

Speaker E: So I think kindness, that act of showing up for each other with support, being able to help someone, not just

Speaker D: helping, but being there with them and seeing them for the fullness of their

Speaker E: humanity, is a powerful act that allows them to feel joy and quite frankly, feel joyful about who they are as a human being. If you can do that for a little kid, they grow up in joyful adults who can then give that act of gift to someone else.

Speaker B: Yes, that right there. And I love that story because we hear so much, like when we ask park and recreation professionals, like, what was it that got you into this career? And like, there's so many different Avenues. But, like, there's always this common theme of, like, I had a really great experience as a kid, and I wanted to do that for my community. And so, like, this is a perfect example of, like, building the future that we want to see. And it's through kindness. And I just. I love that.

Speaker E: Well, you know, thematically, you're talking about, like, the power of, you know, as we go into this conference, that really is the power of what these moments are. It's like. And I'm so glad you said that, Cort, because, you know, I do a lot of work in healthcare as well, and most people who are in healthcare, you ask, like, why did you choose to become a nurse? Why did you choose to become a physician? Why did you choose to do this? Well, you know, that one moment where, you know, I was there and someone treated me really well after an injury or maybe I didn't receive the care that I wanted, and I said, I can do better, and I'm going to do better. Whatever the reason is, there's always an origin story.

Speaker D: And what's so cool is that your origin story.

Speaker E: If we remember and don't lose sight

Speaker D: of that person, that person who decided to do this work, remembering who that person is when we go into each interaction, you are building the next generation of park and rec professionals through our

Speaker E: work, giving our kindness to others and to our joy.

Speaker D: And we should not be taking that

Speaker E: lightly, because I think some people who don't receive kindness as often, it stands out more to them. Like I said earlier in the podcast episode, you may be the only adult who's giving a kid an act of kindness. That's sad to say, but unfortunately, that could be true.

Speaker C: Yeah, one, uh, hundred percent. And I want to circle back to the piece that you were saying about. We might not always see the kindness come through or that ripple effect happening. And I think that's such an important thing to drill down on that in this world where we're often seeing lots of kind of exchange happening, we expect something in return for our actions to do something just purely because, you know, it's the right thing to do and it's going to inevitably result in a positive outcome is. Is just so beautiful. And I think having that bit of observation around the world, seeing other people lead with kindness and how that has affected you and your life, and I love that that was part of the piece of your podcasts and how you want to turn people outward and have them reflect on how they've changed and how, you know, focus have impacted them. And we were talking about this earlier, but I have a dear friend who is just done some wonderful things for me and brought so much joy into my life. And observing that and reflecting on that while listening to your podcast has been just such a wonderful thing. So having that piece of, like, reflection and observation, I think is huge.

Speaker E: Oh, uh, Christina, first of all, that warms my heart. You know, I'm so glad you want to drill down on that part around

Speaker D: not always seeing the effect of kindness, because it's true.

Speaker E: Like, you do something and, you know, sometimes the movement moves on and the moment happens and it's over. Something that I want everyone to remember. When it comes to kindness, I'll just slightly nerd out on a little science. That's not my thing. But I'm just. I think it's important to kind of ground this in a little bit of science because I love good research. So dopamine and serotonin get confused.

Speaker D: Like, dopamine is kind of like, let's go. Yeah, someone liked my post. Yeah, let's go. I mean, nothing wrong with that. Obviously. It's cool.

Speaker E: Serotonin is more like this.

Speaker D: It's a little bit more chill than dopamine. Serotonin's like, you're okay, you're safe, you're

Speaker E: in a good space.

Speaker D: So here's where serotonin comes in. So when an act of kindness happens, three powerful things happen.

Speaker E: One, when I get a hit of serotonin, right? So when something I do, something kind for someone else, I start to feel good.

Speaker D: Like, oh, my gosh, look at that reaction. It's amazing. The recipient, of course, also feels a hit of serotonin. Like, oh, my gosh, that's so kind of you. That makes me feel so great. But here's the wild thing. Anyone who's observing that, who's still tethered to their humanity, will also get a hit of serotonin. So you may not get this amazing, like, circle back moment where you get

Speaker E: to see the power of your action that turned this person into a park and rec professional 20 years from now.

Speaker D: But what you are doing is you're

Speaker E: elevating the collective consciousness through your kind act.

Speaker D: That is something that is not a small thing and it's measurable and it's meaningful and it changes things. So when we do this, you just do. Not saying you're doing this because I

Speaker E: want to increase serotonin in the world.

Speaker D: No, you're doing it because it's the right thing to do. And when you do that and you

Speaker E: Lock in on the fact that's the right thing to do. You'll see it in a kid's face, you'll see it in a senior's face, you'll see it in your community's faces. And that should be enough, just enough to be like, man. In a world that is drowning in unkindness, we are the person who's going to make a little bit of change in this world despite doing this work.

Speaker D: And that's what I really want.

Speaker E: I want people to be able to feel that energy, that there's no such thing as a kind act. There are people who have been deeply mired in mental health challenges who had someone just reach out with a text, say, hey, fam, how are you? Just want to check and see how you're doing.

Speaker D: That takes three, five seconds and it

Speaker E: could change someone's life. So, yeah, I don't take this simply as like, you know what, it's a small thing. When we dig deeper, we may not get that circle back moment immediately of what our actions did. But just know every single time, every, not most every single time, it's making a difference in the world collectively.

Speaker B: Just the brain chemistry part of it all is just, it's so fascinating to me and I'm really glad that you brought that up as well because it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's often and especially in such a transactional culture these days, like not seeing the end result, I feel like causes people not to do the thing. And so just reiterating that like the result is happening regardless m of you seeing it potentially, you know, and so I just, I love that it's the

Speaker D: idea of like, if you're brushing your

Speaker E: teeth right, you know, you brush your teeth every day, twice a day.

Speaker D: Hopefully everyone listening, because it's not like, man, uh, you do it because you

Speaker E: know it's going to have an effect. It's the same thing as like working out.

Speaker D: It's like you always, I mean, listen,

Speaker E: I live in Los Angeles, so you see some people like do like one set of bicep curls and stand in front of the mirror like, oh, how's that looking?

Speaker D: Like, you know, it's like, but it takes time. You can't just like run on the treadmill and all of a sudden you have like beach ready abs. You're trusting the work is going to

Speaker E: have a cumulative effect if you keep showing up the same thing with kindness.

Speaker D: It's like, you don't brush your teeth. One's like, I'm good. No you're not. You got to keep brushing and you keep showing up. And that's the whole idea. It's the. It's the consistency of showing up that

Speaker E: is the hardest part of the kindness.

Speaker D: Because oftentimes people feel like they're just

Speaker E: throwing a Dixie cup of water on a forest fire that didn't do anything. What's the point?

Speaker D: That'd be like saying, what's the point in showering?

Speaker E: I'm only gonna get dirty again, right?

Speaker D: Of course you're gonna keep showering. Why would you stop? That's the work. We keep showing up because if we don't do it, the alternative is so scary and so dark. None of us want to deal with that.

Speaker E: Instead, why not bring the light and show that the future is something that's gonna be clean, positive, and most importantly, productive to all of us.

Speaker C: Mhm. Right? Yeah. I mean, anything that's good takes time and intentionality and care, and we have to return to it in their iterations and we grow with it. And it's a beautiful thing. For park and rec professionals who might be at capacity and they have so many things going on, they run so many programs and might have many parks dealing with. And if they're at capacity and kindness just doesn't seem like it's something that's natural or easy for them. What would you say to them and how can you encourage them to put that first?

Speaker E: There's so many ways to answer that, Christina. I'm trying to think of like, I have like five different answers, but I don't want to go too deep on like every single one. So I'll just give what's calling on my soul right now. Because I think that this is one of the things that a lot of people struggle with, especially professionals that I deal with and kind of my coaching practices and such. Oh, uh, this may hurt to say or hear, I should say, but I'm gonna say it anyway. The willingness to ask for help. I think one of the things that is so interesting that with a lot of people is they don't ask for help. I mean, it's like, I feel like I have to do all this on my own. And for me to ask for help is a sign of weakness. Like I'm doing something wrong, I'm not capable. Why do I need to ask for help? So when I think about it, if

Speaker D: we took a list of all the

Speaker E: things that we need help with, it

Speaker D: could be so many, so many different things. And not being afraid to ask, like, you just be like, hey, you know,

Speaker E: listen, you know, I need support with this or this is going to be something that I'm really struggling with and I would love it if we could sit down and just kind of help me through this. And it doesn't have to be something like a job related function. Sometimes it just helped me think this through, help me to kind of make sense of this. I'll also add another thing, and it's almost the opposite of what I just said. So one is the willingness to ask for help. Another one is the willingness to set and enforce boundaries. Because the people who don't always ask for help are the ones who have open boundaries, who just allow people just to dump on them consistently over and over and over again and they're overwhelmed by becomes kind of a self inflicted wound where it's like, gosh, if I just said I'm at capacity right now, or this is something that I'm not able to do at this moment, but I could do this instead, that allows us to start to reframe this act of like, I'm so overwhelmed into something that's a little bit more manageable. And I'm a huge proponent of this. So I'm just gonna say it. I think one of the most powerful things that we can do to help our overwhelm is to make sure that we are prioritizing our mental health. Man. Ugh, I'll say it again.

Speaker D: I just don't.

Speaker E: I mean, this is being recorded in June, which in addition to being Pride Month, is also, um, Men's Mental Health Awareness Month. And just keeping a buck on this podcast, dudes struggle with this and they really struggle for asking for help, which goes back to my first point. And also the willingness to take care of their mental health. Because when you are so overwhelmed talking to someone and offloading some of that overwhelm to a professional who can help you navigate and manage it can be

Speaker D: a life altering unlock.

Speaker E: I just can't say it enough.

Speaker D: I don't know.

Speaker E: I can't imagine going through the dumpster fire that this world is turning into without having something or someone that I

Speaker D: can turn to and think they're really, really hard. It's important for me, it's important for my mental health.

Speaker E: And I think all these things allow us to kind of look at overwhelm in a different way. Like asking for help, setting boundaries, prioritizing our mental health. I can keep going. There's other things, but those are three very simple ones. And ironically, each one of those three things that I named is a podcast episode that I've recorded. So, um, that was not intentional, I swear. Um, but it's just more around the things that I feel are the most powerful when it comes to this work.

Speaker D: And Court, you brought it up too.

Speaker E: Just the intentionality around rest and really figuring out how to make sure that,

Speaker D: wow, can you rest when you're overwhelmed? It's like, maybe that's the wrong question.

Speaker E: I mean, maybe we have to figure out how to incorporate rest so we're not overwhelmed.

Speaker D: So it's just kind of flipping some

Speaker E: of these lifelong challenges on its head so we can do better work. So the thing that I just want to leave with that point on is that oftentimes people like, there's nothing I can do, uh, nothing I can do. We are only helpless if we are unconscious or dead. I believe this. There's always something we can do. And to just kind of throw our hands up and say, I can't do anything unfortunately allows the problems that we're trying to fix to persist. And if it's important enough to us, we can't allow that to continue.

Speaker C: Mhm. Yeah. We have the power and the control over the perspective that our day takes and how we're viewing things. And I love that you touched on asking for help. It's a key part of building community. That's what parks are all about. Asking for help creates this wonderful cycle of recipes, reciprocity. It's a beautiful thing and people should do it all the time. Yeah.

Speaker B: And the boundaries piece, I feel like that's so relevant. I mean, Christina and I are on the marketing team here. We have lots of conversations around, um, you know, the boundaries and, and so like it's, I mean that's, that's also a very, very hard thing to do, especially when you're a person that wants to help, wants to make sure that every, you know, it's, it's, it's so hard, but it's so key. And I mean, Shola, you're speaking my language when you're talking about, like, talking to, like being able to offload the things. And it can often feel like, I mean, first, I think literally every single person should have a therapist. Um, and it's just like, and it can feel like another thing that's like added to. And I know like sometimes I'll be like, I've got these due dates and things, like, I can't do therapy. And then I get out of it. I'm like, so glad I did do that. Like now my, you know, it's. And I think, like, everyone views needing something like that and like, whatever your flavor is, that's cool, but, like, it can often be viewed as, like, just another thing or like, I need to be going through a really hard time to be doing something like this. It's. And that couldn't be more untrue. Um, and so I just, I appreciate you sharing that. Uh, you posted something on LinkedIn not too long ago about it, and I was like, wow, this is speaking to me on, like, a deep level. And I mean, I just think it's just another layer of taking care of yourself so that you can be the best version of yourself to, you know, support community and be there for the people who need you, you know, to be there. And so, um, I just, I appreciate that a lot.

Speaker E: Well, I love what you said about that. It's kind of like working out.

Speaker D: I mean, I don't know. I'm not. I don't.

Speaker E: I don't personally enjoy working out. Maybe some people do. Awesome if you do. I don't. I just don't. It's not my jam. I don't like it. I do it because I want to stay alive, but it's not something I enjoy.

Speaker D: But every single time I'm done my

Speaker E: workout, I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I did that.

Speaker D: And there's times when I'm like, I

Speaker E: see the therapy appointment coming up. I'm like, oh, my gosh, there's so much going on, I don't know if I can squeeze it in.

Speaker D: I'm like, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that.

Speaker E: And every single time, Cord, as you said so wisely, you're like, thank God.

Speaker D: Uh, I did that.

Speaker E: I needed that so much. Because our brains are trying to trick us into this idea of like, like, we're fine.

Speaker D: It's extra.

Speaker E: It's another thing.

Speaker D: It is like the one thing that's

Speaker E: like the release valve on all the pressure that we're feeling. Why would we skip that?

Speaker D: We always make time for showers and baths and for brushing our teeth, as mentioned in sleep, ideally. So the idea is we should be doing the same for the thing that's

Speaker E: going to allow our brains to operate at the highest capacity to serve our parks, to serve our communities, to serve our families and serve ourselves.

Speaker C: Mhm. Mm. Yeah, I was just chatting with, With a friend the other day about this very similar thing of this, like, barrier we have. It's like a film over our eyes where it's like, It's a thin veil. And, you know, you just have to peel it back before working out or doing like an outdoor adventure. We were going white water rafting and gone in years and we were, you know, we had folks that were going to show us the ropes and uh, but we were both slightly nervous before and then afterwards we were like filled with life and we were like, we're so glad we did that. It was beautiful. And then we were like, yes, it's the same exact thing. You know, whenever we go for a run or you know, we go to the gym or anything along those lines or go to therapy, it's, you know, right before there's this veil over our eyes. And that veil isn't there when we're doom scrolling or when we're watching tv and you just have to like recognize that and take two seconds. But sometimes you don't have those two seconds. And that's the challenge.

Speaker E: It's incorporating that pause so we can have those two seconds. It's like just realizing that whatever we're investing in this time is going to compound so, so greatly over time. Those workouts that we do is going to allow us to be able to pick up our grandchildren when we're later, when we're uh, later in life, or be able to run around and do the things that we want to do and not feel pain when we're picking up our groceries.

Speaker D: All these things matter. And for our mental health, it's the ability to do. Because I don't think the world's going to get easier. The world's not going to get like,

Speaker E: it's not going to wake up like,

Speaker D: wow, everyone loves each other. This is amazing. There's no like racial strife or class differences or anything. Politically, everyone, Democrats and Republicans, are holding hands as they're skipping through the park. Like, listen, who knows, maybe we'll get there. But in case we don't, we probably

Speaker E: should be prepared in doing the work

Speaker D: that we can to ensure that we are in a place where we can

Speaker E: manage the challenges when they come so

Speaker D: we're not weaker going in. That's the whole point of therapy. So we're stronger for these challenges. We, we're not blindsided when they come. We see it like, oh, got it. I was expecting this. Oh, this is a difficult park goer. Here they come. I'm prepared for this. That's what mental strength means. We're prepared for the challenges and not surprised and thrown up. What? I can't believe this happened. Why are you shocked? Be prepared and you have the ability to strengthen yourself through therapy, through Exercise through sleep, through rest. All these things that allow real, meaningful, sustainable, earth changing kindness to happen. And we don't have any choice right now. My God, I think the ship has sailed for us. Aside, should I be kind? Should I not? What? We have to do this.

Speaker E: And one last thing on this. What's often tough is that I see a lot of kind people who are

Speaker D: like, I don't know, should I speak up? Uh, should I do anything about this? Should I be a part of the change? What's so interesting is that unkind people are not burdened with those questions, right? They're just like, I want to say whatever I want. So, like, maybe we should be the

Speaker E: ones who are showing up in kindness, in support of togetherness, of seeing others and being really committed to this community that we want to build in these workplaces, in our parks, and quite frankly, everywhere where we happen to travel.

Speaker B: Wow. The way you said that just like unlocked something in my brain. I don't know. But yeah, it's like it should be a non negotiable. We should be unapologetically kind and.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wow.

Speaker B: I just, um, I know we're, we're getting to the end of this conversation, but I feel like we could just keep going for the rest of the day. I'm so, so, so excited, um, for you to join us in Philly. Um, and so I would love to, you know, as we wrap this up and without giving any spoilers, uh, what can folks who will be with us in Philly expect from your presentation? And what do you hope that, um, not only folks in attendance, but folks listening to this right now? What do you hope that they walk away, um, from the conversation?

Speaker E: Oh, gosh. Well, I think one thing, if I could just really summarize it, is hope. I really think that's one of the things that I want people to feel. I know it's really chuff out there. I mean, as mentioned, the staffing, budget challenges, and all the things that happen around parks. I do think that there is a need to reinforce hope. I think without hope, we don't have anything. So I want to make sure people feel good about the future. That's one thing. And I'll really supply reason to feel that way. But also, as Christine and I were talking about earlier with the podcast, real freakish, practical things that you can do

Speaker D: immediately, not just for you, but, but for the people on your teams who maybe might not be able to make

Speaker E: it to the conference and see the keynote. So ways to bring kindness and make it really practical and meaningful that you can apply in your life today. Like, as soon as they're done and I get off stage, like that moment, it's like, okay, I know what to do. I know how to put this into action and I can share this with others. And what's cool, it's not just a workplace thing.

Speaker D: It's not just a park thing. It's a family thing. It's an individual something you could share with your church or your community, whatever it may be.

Speaker E: That's the beauty of this keynote is

Speaker D: that you can put this into action

Speaker E: immediately and give you something that's going

Speaker D: to not just help you get hope, because Hope SMN is important, but strategies

Speaker E: that you can use. That's my guarantee.

Speaker C: That rocks. Yeah. And it's going to be such a unique keynote. All of the ones we have in the past have been incredible and brilliant and so inspiring. But to have action items is. That's special, I think.

Speaker D: It's something that I think.

Speaker E: And this is kind of just more of a speaking note than, uh, a real kindness note or even having to do a Parks and Recreation note.

Speaker D: I think that keynote speaking is changing.

Speaker E: I think maybe my big brother's keynote speaker is different than the keyNote speaker

Speaker D: of 2026, where folks are like, I'm so inspired. I don't remember what he said though, but I'm so inspired. That's not really the energy that I think really people need right now. It's like, that was inspiring.

Speaker E: And I'm going to try X, Y and Z that he said afterward, like, oh, my God, she was incredible. And I'm also going to remember this one saying that she said, I'm going to use this with my co worker tomorrow. Those are the type of things that really change behavior. Because if we're not changing behavior, then what's the point? I really want to create a kinder world. I really, really do. At the risk of sounding like a Miss America pageant contestant, as I'm doing my wave, I really, woo. Want to create a kind of world. I think the only way we do that is by helping people to know how to do that. And that's what I'm hoping to deliver in Philly.

Speaker B: Incredible. Well, I can't wait. I'm super excited. Um, we're going to have to, you know, we're going to catch you before your keynote and get a selfie or something. But, uh. Oh, please.

Speaker D: Anyone listening to this? I am a selfie lover. So anyone wants to take a selfie with me, Grab a brother. Grab me by my collar and be like, where? Taking a selfie right now. You said on the podcast Cord and Christina that I could do this.

Speaker E: Yes.

Speaker D: Grab me.

Speaker E: Let's do it. I'm here for it.

Speaker B: You are going to get bombarded. Then you're going to walk through the exhibit hall and you're not going to be able to make it through. You're going to be trying to get on a slide and you're just not going to be able to do it. That's my hope.

Speaker E: So from your mouth to God's ears, let's make that happen. I really would love that. I sincerely am a man of the people, so that would be a joy and an honor if that happened.

Speaker B: Amazing. Well, Shola, uh, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for, uh, joining us in Philly here in few months. We are so grateful to be able to have this conversation and then for you to share your message with thousands of our closest friends in Parks and Recreation. So, um, yeah, this has been wonderful and thank you so much for your time.

Speaker E: Thank you for having me. Listen, let's keep the good vibes rolling for the next few months until I see you in Philly. But thank you for the invite. This was so kind. And you both are. You already know this, but you're both fabulous interviewers and just made me feel so comfortable. So thank you. I really appreciate you.

Speaker C: Thank you, Shola. This has been a treat.

Speaker B: Thank you so much.

Speaker A: To learn more, find resources we discussed in this episode or listen to past episodes, visit openspaceradio.org and you can find even more stories and content on the Open Space Blog and by reading NRPA's flagship publication, Parks and Recreation Magazine. Check it all out@nrpa.org if you'd like to share feedback about the show or just say hi. Reach out to us@openspacenrpa.org or give us a follow on Instagram penspaceradio. And if you enjoyed this episode or learned something that might help you make a positive impact in your community, please consider making a donation to nrpa. You'll help us build a future where the full power of Parks and Recreation is widely recognized for creating a better life for everyone by building strong, healthy and resilient communities. This@nrpa.org Donate to give today. Thanks for listening.