Burn Bright, Not Out: James Oliver Jr. on Founder Mental Wellness

Speaker A: Today on the giveburst podcast, we're going to be diving into a topic that I think will hit home for almost everybody listening. It's that thin, blurry line between being a high achiever and being highly exhausted. We've all been there, you know, waking up on a Monday morning feeling like it's already Friday afternoon and staring at a to do list that feels like a mountain, not a plan. And we're told to grind it out and hustle. Um, you know, be the first one in, be the last one out. But what happens when the light at the end of the tunnel is actually just us burning out? My guest today is James Oliver Jr. He says there's a better way. He's become a good friend. He's a fantastic entrepreneur. Father, author of the transformative book Burn Bright, not out, which, uh, looks to destigmatize founder, Mental Wellness Mental Health. He spent years decoding how we can maintain peak performance without sacrificing our mental health or our joy. And he's here to teach us how to move from treading water to making waves. That's coming up next on the Give first podcast.

Speaker B: Hi, everyone, this is David Cohen, and I'm here with my amazing co host, Brad Feld. Hey, Brad. Uh, and this is the Give first podcast. In the startup world, Give first means simply trying to help anyone, especially entrepreneurs, without any expectation of getting anything back. So we'll be talking to mentors and founders about what Give first looks like in action and how it makes great entrepreneurship possible. We polled everyone and they said consistently that their favorite part of the show was the legal mumbo jumbo. So here it is. The following discussion is an expression of personal opinion and does not represent the opinion of techstars or any company. We discuss our conversations for informational purposes only, including any mention of securities or funds. This is not legal business, investment or tax advice and is not intended for use by any Investor. Certain of TXStars funds own or may own in the future, securities and some of the companies discussed in this podcast. Got it.

Speaker A: All right. Welcome back, James, to the Give first podcast.

Speaker B: Great to see you. How are you?

Speaker C: I'm doing amazing. Good to see you, my friend.

Speaker A: You do such awesome work. I can't wait to talk about it. And, uh, we don't get to do this enough. You know, we text a lot and use that old voxer thing, you know, the OG tools, and talk about your startup and all that. And, yeah, once in a while we get to hang out and chat. So I'm really excited to do that. Um, there's a lot to talk about. You've got, ah, several things going on. You've got an awesome new book, uh, that's out, Burn Bright, not out, which I want to talk about. You've got all your work around founders and mental health. Parentpreneur foundation, uh, Kabila. There's just so much stuff going on in your world. So where should we start? Tell us a little bit about you and how you got to where you are today and what you care about. Let's start there.

Speaker C: Yeah, and I appreciate that. You know, I like to introduce myself as, um, you know, co founder of the World's Cutest Twins, um, husband to an amazing wife, um, you know, also now the founder of the Kabila Founder Mental Health Fund, uh, which pays for mental therapy for founders who want it but, you know, may not have the resources to afford it for whatever reason. And also kind of simmering similar in the background is, you know, um, the launching of Kabila Ventures. But, um, anyway, we can talk more about that to whatever extent you want to, ah, later.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, I want to. I want to get to all these things. You're also a techstars alum.

Speaker C: Um, yes, I am.

Speaker A: I've known you even longer than that. So go way back.

Speaker C: Absolutely. No, absolutely. Um, I, um. So, you know, so back when I was working on the ParentPreneur foundation stuff, and, you know, you and Brad were super influential with that, you know, after George Floyd was murdered, we spend that up to help black founders who are parents, um, just be better parents and better entrepreneurs. And one of the things that I did there that was really impactful was we pay for about 400 mental therapy sessions for the folks in that community. And if anybody knows anything about black folks, black folks historically don't go to the therapist. There's this really interesting relationship, um, between the black community and mental therapy community. And just in general, we just don't, um, it's, you know, stigmatized. They typically will go to the pastor, go see a pastor at church. Um, but in that community, when I would drop a type form every so often, say, hey, we got five slots, first come, first serve, they will fill up like that. And then they would come back and tell me about how it was so helpful. And at that time, we were working with BetterHelp to do that. Um, we were paying for the sessions. Um, so I was like, okay, this is great. Um, so once I started the Kabila, um, Founder Mental Health Fund, I'm like, it's time to double and triple down on this. And so I went through VC lab raising Kabila Ventures and I was having some progress, I was making pretty good progress with that. And the political landscape changed and it was just getting harder and harder and harder and you know, because I myself you know, have a therapist and you know my wife is, you know she has the best mental health hygiene on anybody I know. Um, um, so you know, just by virtue of being married to her, it's been great because you know, more self aware and just having more meaningful conversations with her about around mental health and wellness. But I realized that you know, raising for the fund was really negatively impacted my mental health. And I went back to, there was a slide in my fun deck. Um, it said um, you know, founder value add. And I, you know, I jokingly say like when have VCs added a lot of value to founders?

Speaker A: Come on now.

Speaker C: Some do, some do, some do. I'm joking but, but you know, all jokes aside, like for me at the time it felt like kind of a throwaway slide because um, everybody's going to say, you know, they're going to connect, you know, the founders turned investors and you know, all this stuff. But I was like one of the things I was, I put in that slide was I'm going to connect founders to mental wellness resources. And because you know doing that was actually really negatively affecting my mental health, I said, you know, I'm going to put a pin in this for now, I'm going to come back to it later. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to go and start a nonprofit to provide free mental therapy for founders who want it but can't afford it. And at least this lets me um, be valuable to the founders in my ecosystem and connect with some really interesting people who may want to participate in what I'm doing on the fun side of things. Maybe that's a longer term strategy to fund thing but at least it still keeps me on the path of uh, that and oh by the way, at the end of the day my mental health is now still intact along the way and that was the most important thing for me because I have 13 year old boy girl twins and it's super important to me to be able to show up and be a great dad. Um, it's super important to me to show up and be a great husband to my wife and I can't do that if my brains are scrambled. You know what I mean? So, so I did that and you know, I reached out to Brad. And Brad was like, okay, cool. You know, he supported me in so many different ways in the past. He's like, yeah, I'll put in 25,000 from Anchor Point, his foundation. And then, uh, and you came along. You're like, hey, I'll put in, you know, 32,000 from Techstars Foundation. And, you know, we've been providing free mental therapy for some techstars founders. Um, and we'll continue to do more of that. And I was really surprised that you did that because I didn't know that you guys were still, you know, still had funds over there. But I was delighted when you did it. So great. And then you also, you know, we just had a Tech Tuesdays event and we were raising money for the nonprofit and you came on and we had a great conversation about why, you know, venture industry should be more supportive of founder mental wellness and health and wellness. And you personally, you know, Dana donated a couple thousand dollars. So I'm just very thankful to you and to Brad and, um, just excited about the work we're doing.

Speaker A: Well, you know, it's just, um, I view this as just one of the things you're doing as an entrepreneur, right? You care about this. You know, entrepreneurs solve problems that they've experienced in the past, and you've been through some of that and you want to share, you know, that opportunity with others. And, you know, it's the ultimate give first to me, which is why I love to promote all the good work that you do. And, you know, you're out there adding value in a totally different way. Right? That's a really important way. And, you know, in that transition, I saw you too, get, get focused on, you know, creating this book. Right. And burn bright, not out. Super, super awesome work. Uh, I'm about halfway through it. It's in my pile, you know, when I get a chance to read. And yeah, I got the gist. I mean, I'm loving the, you know, the sort of help that you're giving people there and maybe start. Tell us a little bit about why you decided to put it in the form of book. Because you've been doing a lot online and having a lot of conversations and maybe jump into some of the concepts like the, you know, the burn bright spectrum and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker C: Yeah, of course. So first of all, you know, thank you for writing the forward to the book. I mean, I think you wrote a really compelling forward to the book. Um, I think it's a pretty well known stat that 72% of founders are having some kind of mental health challenge that I think. Was that from startup snapshot? Is that where that came from? I think, um, sounds right to me. I think Yel, I think is a woman's name who's over there. Um, but I think that's the stats from some research they did a few years ago. And you know, most of the founders are dealing with whatever mental health issues that they're having in silence, quietly, you know. And, you know, I started jokingly say, like 100 of the fountains that I talk to are struggling. You know, they're just like going through.

Speaker A: They're not founders. Right.

Speaker C: You know, they're just going through it. You know, life is always life in, you know, doing all the things that life likes to do and throw at you. And on top of the founder pressure. Um, so. So yeah, man. I wrote this book with, um, a really interesting guy, Django Degree, who has a startup called Focus on Words, and it's an AI book generating platform. So he will talk to people, interview them, and then take those words and send it. Send his AI agents out to go write chapters in a book. So that's what we did. Um, and we reached out to several folks in our network, um, made some new friends in the process. And I think there are 10 chapters in the book. And the book is not intended to be prescriptive. We're not telling folks what to do. Maybe the next book is with some people who can talk from a neuroscience standpoint about what exactly you need to do to improve your mental health. It's not that, it's how do we shatter the silence around mental health and tech startups because so many people are suffering in silence. There's still a lot of stigma around mental health and getting help. A lot of founders think that they're doing this by themselves. I mean, I think you talked about this in the forward and so many other people talked about this. Brad contributed an amazing chapter. He talked about it like, if you're a founder and you're just having mental health challenges, you're just having bad days, like you, you're not alone, you know, and so that was a recurring theme in the book. And it's okay to ask for help. You know, asking for help is actually a strength, not a weakness. Because some founders feel like, you know, if they show up in certain ways around mental health and wellness to investors, they will be frowned upon. And honestly, like, I look at some stuff I see on social media and I think that is true to some extent. But, you know, if you're aligned, you know, values aligned with some of the investors in your port, uh, in your startup. You know, those folks will not see it that way. I think in Brad's chapter he said something a lot about, you know, the good investors won't see it as weakness. They'll see it. Investors won't see it as a weakness, they'll see it as a strength. He said the good ones anyway. So you gotta find investors who your values aligned with. But we want you to know, like, you're not alone. Um, the stories in the book are just so inspiring, David. We have founders, we have investors. Um, the first chapter is with Jeff. You read the first chapter, Jeff Johnson, that. I mean, what was your reaction to that first chapter, if any?

Speaker A: This is powerful. Like the story and what he's actually dealing with, right?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, my mouth was, I mean I already knew his story because he's a friend now. Uh, but my mouth was on the floor when I read his story. And you know, Will Allen, who's an investor, he's a VC and Will used to play cornerback for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, wanted Super bowl ring there and was a longtime defensive back for the Pittsburgh Steelers. So it's interesting to hear him talk about mental health and wellness from an investor standpoint and from a football. He saw some great stories about football in there. Um, you know, some good founders and just other investors and like, you know, uh, Nick, Nick marriage, you know, he talked about, I think that's how you pronounce his last name. He sold his business to Link Tree. He started to Link Tree and then after that he was burnt out and it's like, wait, what? You just had a successful exit? It's totally counterintuitive. So that was interesting. And I look at Shaler Hauser, who, his business was prepared to IPO on the nasdaq, the NASDAQ crash, and then he ended up having to sell it. They walked away with nothing, just that whole story. And just Mike Ma, who's a VCO over at Sidecut Ventures, uh, his story was so compelling. Um, just so many good stories. And Lauren Goodell, who talks about transitioning from corporate to the startup world. So I think there's something in there for everybody. Everybody's going to walk away inspired, um, and really to shatter the silence around, um, mental health and tech startups. And 90% of the net profits from the book go back to the Gabila founded Mental Health Fund, which pays for mental therapy. So to me, um, this is why you probably see me saying, I think this is the most important book written to date about founding mental health. And it's not just because of those stories I mentioned, but it's because the money goes back to the nonprofit which actually addresses the problem.

Speaker A: Yeah, amazing virtuous cycle there. And you know, I, what I love about it is there's stories that are really compelling and will inspire people, but there's also these sort of lessons that, that are, weave through it, um, sort of consistently like uh, you know, the sort of micro winds. Right. The power of progress. And it doesn't have to be some giant, you know, goal, but if you feel like you're, you're moving forward and making progress, that, that can change everything. So I, I don't know if you have thoughts on that, but that, that was one thing I noticed in some of the stories.

Speaker C: Yeah, I, I, I did, I noticed that. Um, and you know, look, everybody's journey is different, but so similar. Seem like um, you know, the ups and downs, the wins and losses, you know, don't get too high in the highs and don't get too low in the lows. And I think Lauren talked about this in her chap. Just got to keep, you know, plugging away and you know, until, you know, you get a quote unquote lucky break or you, you know, you hit pay dirt. But it's the small wins. It's showing up consistently every single day to make progress. And I think, um, you know, I mean I, I can be really hard on myself sometimes and I suspect, you know, most type A, higher achiever type people are that way. But you know, you got to give yourself some grace and be kind to yourself and you know, appreciate the small wins and celebrate those small wins. And to me that contributes to a more positive mindset which is at the end of the day, we're trying to help people have a more positive mental well being and mindset. So I think that's great too.

Speaker A: I think you also talked in there, um, about rest and the importance of uh, having some sort of balance or at least harmony, uh, in life to achieve any kind of excellence or progress. Um, and I have talked about that in other books. I worked with Brad on his Brad and Amy, wrote the Startup Life book. And I talked about always having something with your family that, you know, is a break coming up. Um, that's the way that I've always managed it, even during all the craziest times of my career. Maybe, maybe, uh, what can you share about the importance of that balance or that rest in your career?

Speaker C: Well, you know, I Think in my chapter, because, you know, I just kind of speak very plainly sometimes. I think I said in my chat, the hustle culture is trash. I mean, it is. Um, Although it's just so fascinating, depending on who you're reading and following on social media, I'm seeing some of the, you know, some of the top investors, like, really just, like, really promoting Hustle culture. I saw this incredibly concerning article the other day. I think it was a Business Insider about how stress is so great for you. And it wasn't until I actually dove into the article that I understood the point that they were trying to make. But it was nuanced. But the way it came across was like, oh, yeah, more stress is awesome. Yeah. No, it's not, Right? So I think hustle culture is trash. I think, um, it's like in the book I talked about Nicola, Ah, Corzine, who runs the NASDAQ Entrepreneurial Center. Nicola's a friend, and she said years ago, I never forget this, and I repeat every chance I get. She said, you know, sometimes you have to slow down to speed up, and, you know, sometimes doing nothing. This is me talking here. Sometimes doing nothing is doing everything. Like, sometimes you gotta, like, go for a walk, clear your head. Like, I like to go ride my bike. Um, just clear my head. And I find in those spaces, in those moments, I get open for inspiration. And then when I get that inspiration and I go do the inspired thing, you know, I get the good results. So, you know, constantly hustling and throwing spaghetti against the wall and the shotgun approach to thing, I. I just don't think it's necessarily good for one's mental health and wellness.

Speaker A: All right. Hustle culture is trash. I'm gonna put that on my wall.

Speaker C: Uh, it is. Do you disagree or not?

Speaker A: No, I get. I hear you. I think, you know, obviously, hustle can be a good thing, but I think when it's like, all that's celebrated and all that matters, that's. That's where the problems come in.

Speaker C: Well, a thousand percent. So I think Mitch Wehner. So Mitch wrote a chapter. Wrote a chapter in the book. And Mitch is a techstars alum. He went through Boulder, I believe. Right? Yeah.

Speaker B: Digital Ocean.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, he was co founder and CMO of DigitalOcean, which IPO'd. And so Mitch wrote a really great chapter in the book, and he just talked about how he was sprinting all the time. He ended up having a really serious health issue that he thought was way more serious, but it forced him to reevaluate his priorities and how he was approaching work. So, uh, you know, it's like, yeah, of course you got to sprint, but you can't be sprinting all the time. And I like to say, you know, having a startup is a marathon of sprints, but you gotta rest in between the sprints. So, yeah, you got to take time for yourself. Do whatever makes you feel good. Sleep is so important. I hear Brad talk about this all the time. He's, like, getting his sleep all the time. Um, you gotta rest, man. You have to rest.

Speaker A: Brad's got that down. He knows how to. He knows how to rest, he knows how to disconnect, and he's unbelievable with that. Um, we're recording this right after the Australian Open. I know he was there enjoying that tennis.

Speaker C: Excellent. Is he in Australia now?

Speaker A: Last I heard? Yeah, he gets right on that guy. M. So one more question on the book, Burn Bright, not out. Um, how do you define, say, burnout versus burn bright? What's the sort of way you would think about how a founder should sort of think about, am I burning out or am I burning bright?

Speaker C: So Django's chapter was really good. He talked about how he was burnt out. Um, I can't remember exactly what he said, but, you know, I've heard people describe it in different ways. But I know for me, if I'm burned out, um, the things that I love to do as it relates to my work is I always like my work. But if I'm loathe to do it, if I'm constantly procrastinating, if I'm not getting inspired, if I'm not excited about it, I don't want to do it. That's a really good sign to me that I'm burned out and I need to take a break because I love, like, my kids were talking to me the other day, dad, you like what you do? I'm like, yeah, I'm just. I don't. Doesn't feel like work. I'm just doing what I want to do, you know? Um, and in terms of Burning Bright, you know, we just want people to thrive, to be successful, to do inspired and brilliant work, um, and to not be struggling with their mental. Mental health and wellness. And, you know, so we do pay for the founder mental therapy. That's not the end all be all right. So, I mean, shout out to David Koh and, you know, his chief of staff, Bennett from Calm, who recently donated some premium Calm subscriptions for us to give away, the founders. And I like that because that lets us kind of go more upstream before there's a problem. Like how can we help people, you know, improve their mental health and wellness, um, before they have to go talk to a therapist. So what tools and resources can we make available for people in between mental therapy appointments? So we're going to be looking at a whole range of options and resources we want to make available for founders, um, not just, you know, mental therapy, that's just, that's just one thing. And oh, by the way, on the therapy side, we do, um, send them to betterhelp if they want that for virtual sessions. But we also will reimburse, so we pay for four mental therapy sessions. We also reimburse them up to $300 if they have their own therapist as well.

Speaker A: Right, right. Amazing. So I want to encourage people to grab the book. You know, there's so many, um, not so many. There's, there's several amazing people in my world. You're one of them, James, Brad, uh, Seth Levine. You know, people writing these books, they're not doing it to create wealth from writing a book.

Speaker B: Trust me.

Speaker A: James, you know, you're donating most of this back to the cause. It's really because you care and you want to share what you've learned on this and share stories, inspire people. And that I find, um, is really the ultimate form of give first. So I appreciate you having written the book and I appreciate all you do in this world, uh, to try to drive awareness, uh, and get rid of that stigma. Hopefully, um, people will buy the book and be inspired by the stories. Share it, ah, as a gift, share it with others, let people know it's there. Because, uh, this is an important topic that isn't talked about enough in the startup world. So I just want to say thanks for doing it.

Speaker C: Yeah, I appreciate you, your support, I appreciate Brad's support. Um, I would love to see every investor out there listening to this, like go buy some books and give them to your port co founders every time you write a new check. Give a book to a founder. Uh, we need to normalize these conversations. I would love to see that. And oh, by the way, like be a donor to the non profit. I mean donations tax deductible. You can go to kabilamentalhealth.com, make a donation. We're still raising, you know, another $80,000 so we could provide mental therapy for another 150 founders. So that, that would be super helpful as well.

Speaker A: Amazing. Well, again, thanks for all you do and thanks for letting us be a little part of the journey with you and. And hopefully add a little bit of love and help to it. Keep doing it. Uh, it matters. And I know there's a lot of people that appreciate you out there, so I'm. I'm psyched to be able to have you on the show and amplify it a bit.

Speaker C: I appreciate you, too, man. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: All right, Thanks a lot for listening to the show today. We'd love to hear your feedback, ideas, or who you'd like to hear next on Give First. And please leave a rating and review,

Speaker A: ideally a good one.

Speaker B: And reach out anytime to podcastsextechstars, uh.com or on Twitter. I'm Avid Cohen.

Speaker A: See you next time. Don't forget Give First.