Office Hours with David Meltzer · 2026-06-17 · 36 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
27 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Episode 899 features two distinct conversations addressing the pressures of modern work and economics. Dimitri Maxim, author of "Marpol: Return of Measure," discusses his 17-year investigation into financial systems following the 2008 crisis, emphasizing that business owners must read their financial dashboards rather than rely on intuition - comparing entrepreneurship to driving a vehicle where ignoring warning lights leads to failure. He argues that central bank digital currencies represent the next evolution of financial architecture, potentially arriving by 2030, and that knowledge has become commoditized by AI and technology. Stephen DeGroote, president of Rivvia Consulting and author of "Getting to Better," shifts focus to human capability, asserting that systems work as designed but people running them are failing due to disengagement and burnout. He introduces the "three great states" - feeling safe, significant, and situated - as the foundation for unlocking human potential across all contexts from F-35 pilots to surgeons to gang members. Both speakers challenge conventional wisdom: Maxim questions whether money truly provides freedom, while DeGroote argues that much of modern self-help thinking may be fundamentally misguided. This episode serves business leaders navigating AI disruption, economic uncertainty, and generational workforce challenges.
Maxim wrote the book after losing money in the 2008 financial crisis and spending 17 years investigating what went wrong. The core concept is that most people set endless goals (first $1 million, then $5 million, then $10 million) without achieving lasting fulfillment, and that we are governed by words and definitions - like how money is commonly understood to mean freedom, when it actually creates more responsibility and less freedom.
Most entrepreneurs rely on feelings rather than reading their business dashboard - the actual financial metrics and data. Maxim compares this to driving a car and ignoring the fuel gauge; if you don't monitor your readings, you end up in a ditch regardless of how you feel about the journey.
The three great states are feeling safe (clear expectations and predictability), significant (feeling like your contributions matter), and situated (knowing your role and what's expected). When these conditions exist, people reveal their full potential and demonstrate the four pillars of optimal performance: positive high energy, sharp focus, deep commitment, and abundant effort.
Systems work exactly as they were designed to work, so calling them broken is inaccurate. The actual problem is human capability - high disengagement, burnout, and lack of clear leadership conditions that create psychological safety and significance, which prevents people from showing up fully.
DeGroote argues that modern self-help and performance coaching operate from the insidious premise that there's something wrong with you - perpetuating imposter syndrome and anxiety even among top performers. He believes much of current thinking about human behavior and performance needs fundamental reconsideration rather than incremental adjustment.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode is overwhelmingly padded with travel-schedule announcements, name-dropping, and platitudes. The only substantive idea presented is Stephen DeGroote's 'three great states' framework (safe, significant, situated), but even that is given only a surface-level treatment with no mechanism or data behind it. The other two guests contribute vague philosophical claims and generic startup advice.
I'm gonna tell you this right now. What you do from today on, um, what you do from today on will determine our success. And he came back from COVID 12 and oh, and won the national championship
remember, most importantly, be more interested than interesting. Be kind to your future self and do good deeds
DeGroote's 'three great states' framework re-labels well-established psychological safety and self-determination theory concepts without crediting or advancing them. Dimitri's 'measure' thesis is too vague to evaluate as original. Noah's startup lessons ('build digitally, hire people you trust') are completely standard founder lore, and the host's takeaways are recycled motivational content.
Safe, significant and situated. Where I'm clear on what I'm expected, it's predictable
what's worse than being totally wrong about something? The answer is, uh, is, uh, being wrong a little bit about everything
The three guests have genuinely interesting backgrounds - a financial analyst turned author, a consultant who works with F35 pilots and surgeons, and a third-time founder in AI testing - but none are proven operators at major scale and none demonstrate the kind of battle-tested, at-scale practitioner knowledge the dimension rewards. The most notable name mentioned (Nick Saban) never appears on the podcast.
I do a lot of private work with some very smart people, Nobel prize winners, Order, uh, of Canada holders
This is definitely the largest venture that I've built so far
Concrete numbers are almost entirely absent. Dimitri's biggest specific claim is that his book is 444 pages and took 17 years of research - neither of which is evidence for his thesis. Noah provides a vague '80 person shops to tens of thousands' client range. No metrics, case outcomes, revenue figures, or named company examples appear anywhere.
it took me 444 pages to explain what is measure
we represent, you know, everything from a small kind of 80 person shops all the way up to several uh, thousand person companies
The host opens with a lengthy self-promotional travel itinerary and repeatedly interrupts guests with irrelevant anecdotes about Nick Saban, Mike Tyson, and his Harvard brother. Questions are predominantly soft setups ('give me an idea what Happy Path is doing to help people be happy'). Rob Gill asks the sharpest question of the episode about timing and downside risk, but there is zero follow-up or pushback across any segment.
give, uh, me an idea what Happy Path is doing to help people be happy
Why is your timing different? And what's the catch if you're early or wrong?
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Dmitri Maxim is a Canadian Certified Management Accountant with more than three decades of experience in accounting, financial analysis, and corporate finance. In 2008, he began a 17-year forensic investigation into the global financial system, applying professional auditing methods such as reconciliation, variance analysis, and pattern recognition to uncover structural risks within modern financial and digital systems. His research culminated in MARPOLE: Return of Measure, a 444-page audit that examines the growing vulnerabilities of the global economy and argues that many of the forces driving financial instability remain largely unseen by the public. Through his platform, Marpole.ai, Dmitri aims to provide entrepreneurs, creators, and business leaders with greater clarity about systemic risks so they can build stronger, more resilient futures. Stephen de Groot is a leadership expert, speaker, author, and co-founder of Brivia who has spent his career helping individuals and organizations unlock higher levels of performance and human potential.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Welcome to Office Hours episode 899 or more. And what a great way to celebrate episode 899 with two of my favorite people on earth, the incredible Poonam Bukar and the amazing Rob Gill. Thank you both for taking the time to share with our community.
Speaker B: Good morning.
Speaker C: I'm honored to be here. As always, David, thank you for the opportunity. Nice to meet you again.
Speaker D: Likewise, Rob.
Speaker A: Control to Major Rob. Um, nice looking like an astronaut there, my friend. Well, real quickly, uh, before we bring our first friend on, Dimitri's waiting patiently in the green room. I just want to review a quick schedule because nothing frustrates me more than people like, I wish I would have known that you are going to be in Louisville with Nick Saban today. Well, I am. I'm there with Bobby Hurley's, uh, compadre on the football side. That's Nick, uh, Saban here in Louisville, Kentucky. Uh, then I'm driving now because Chicago has a, uh, category four tornado warnings and have canceled all flights. So we are driving, uh, because we are the Wamers to Kalamazoo, Michigan to speak there tomorrow, then fly into San Diego. So if you're going to be in Louisville, Kalamazoo or San Diego, please come and join us. Then Monday and Tuesday, my friends will be with us and Las Vegas at the Wind in the lobby of the wind season 11 of Office Hours, uh, in the lobby of the win. Back to Chicago, back to Newport beach with Tim Story and Jay Abraham and of course Marie diamond and Poonam. Everybody's going to be in Newport Beach. Come and join us. Back to Vegas all star game Rob in Philly, just south of you. Uh, so then we'll be at the Fanatics Fest in New York City, back to Sofi Stadium now that they'll be giving us back our suite in podcast studio. And then a really special messy event with the FC Miami in Miami finishing off in London with uh, uh, many other investors, a private member, high net wealth mastermind in London.
Speaker E: Wow.
Speaker A: Um, that's how you get to 200 cities a year, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, but we are blessed to share if you want to come to a meetup, a holding court, an interview, a speech, VIP dinner for charity. All you got to do is join our text community to stay informed and invited. Area code 949, as you heard in the jingle. 298-290-594-92982905. All right, enough about me, that's all about you. Remember, there's an I in Wynn, though, uh, Nick Saban told me that today there's no me in team, but, uh, I in Wynn. Uh, Dimitri Maxim is in the house. Uh, author and founder at Marco AI. Welcome, Dimitri, to Office Hours 899.
Speaker E: Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker A: We're glad to have you here. And we want to talk about your new book, Marpol Return of Measure. Um, and, uh, understanding the new financial system that we have, uh, and breaking into it, uh, early is very important. Well, give me an idea of the measurement architecture, uh, then that we can utilize rather than the circumstances of politics, religions, and other things that weigh the financial.
Speaker E: Uh. Thank you very much. Um, like, it all started in 2008, uh, when I lost my money during financial crisis. And then I started kind of like, wondering, uh, what did I do wrong? Because I was doing right. I was financial analyst, and I'm still financial analyst. I'm certified management accountant. And I start kind of doing my investigation. And my investigation led me to 17 years. And at the end, I wrote the book, uh, Marpol Return of Measure. So, basically, um, in a very short format, uh, measure is like, um, how to say it's very simple because it took me 444 pages to explain what is measure. So, uh, you know, in order to make it, like, in a few sentences, I would put it this way. So we. You probably remember that we were given like, um, matter, energy, space in time, this philosophical treatment, right? So we kind of like, all rely on this one. Uh, but, uh, in my. In my book, I broke it down and I said, this is wrong because matter, uh, out of four, only one matter is important. The rest is just like ephemera numbers. But. And I can. And. And I have, like, explanation about this in the book. But what I really wanted to say that, like, say we all try to achieve something, right? And when we achieve something like the goal, our relief is very short. Like, last maybe one day. And then you kind of set a new goal for you. For example, like maybe 10 years ago, you're thinking, oh, when I. When I make my first million dollars, I will be. It will be okay and would be enough for me. You reach this point, then the next point is $5 million. Then it's $10 million. It's never ending. And you are the one who is setting this measure. So. And the most important part of this, we run, uh, by words. So, um, words basically said for us, like, for example, if we take money, like, everybody is thinking about what is money, but in reality, money like, uh, most people say freedom, but the difference between what is money like, the picture like, and what's the actual money, there is a very big gap. Like, for example, money, it's digital, kind of like it could be a fiat or it can be digital, something like a matter image freedom. But in reality, does it really give you a freedom? Because the more you have money, the more, the less freedom you have. Ultimately you have more responsibility.
Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that, Dimitri, because there's, uh, my friend Andrew, uh, talks about him and Mike Tyson, and when he said that most people think money means freedom, Mike Tyson did not believe it. He started laughing. He's like, come on, who the hell thinks that money gives freedom? Uh, because he had experience. What you're talking about, Poonam? Uh, what are you curious about,
Speaker D: Dimitri? I'm curious as to. In your 17 years of research, what is the one thing critical thing that you found that you think business owners need to know? And entrepreneurs.
Speaker E: The entrepreneurs, yeah, they most of the time, they drive. First of all, uh, any business, you can compare it to driving a vehicle. So you kind of like have same surrounding, you have same structure and stuff like that. But the most important part, a lot of people, a lot of people do the business, but they don't believe the dashboard or they are not using the dashboard in the business. They rely on their feelings. And when the feelings kind of like fool them around, they end up, uh, in a ditch. So in order for you to be successful, you need to read the readings and the readings. Sometimes it's very difficult to read because emotionally you wanted to feel there, to be there, and you kind of ignore all this. Like if you're driving somewhere and you see that on the dashboard, you don't have enough gas, where do you go?
Speaker D: I keep going.
Speaker E: I do, I do. You ran out of the gas. And I have a Tesla.
Speaker A: Don't let it fly.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker A: Rob. Rob Gill, I'm gonna mute you for your background. What do you got for us?
Speaker C: Yeah, for Dimitri. Thank you so much. Um, your, your work has been incredible. A specific question I have is, you know, there's a lot of people out there that always say the system is broken. That argument has always been around, and it's been at least for decades now, while the markets continue to compound. Why is your timing different? And what's the catch if you're early or wrong?
Speaker E: Okay, so that's a very good question. I'm glad you asked because really, uh, this is a very good timing for, uh, um, making Changes in the system. The old system was running on um, the fact that the information was kind of like hold uh, with uh, elites and a lot of people, they didn't have access to the information and the information was slow. Like say a cart with a horse was running like for maybe thousand years. Then there was like technology going faster and faster and faster and faster. And right now the technology is so fast you cannot really say whether it's true or not true. So and as uh, this gave us an opportunity to change the system because people who hold the power of knowledge, who has all this power to control, they're confused. They don't know what to do and they are trying to change how to say uh, the way how uh the, the society is run. And probably you have heard about uh, central bank digital currencies. That's uh, the ultimately the solution that they most likely to incline. I have a specific uh, chapter about uh, this uh, in my book because it tells exactly what options do we have and what chances are we have. As a financial analyst I always rely on numbers. There is nothing good or bad. There is always a degree and you can scale it from 1 to 10 for example. It's obviously subjective but still there should be some kind of numbers.
Speaker A: That's all what the book is about. Marpol Return of Measure uh, check it out if you're interested in our modern financial and digital systems and the new architecture that could be as early as 2030 in place and uh, learning the seven stages of management. Our friend Dimitri Maxim. Thank you so much for joining us on episode 899. We'll have you back. Congratulations on your book.
Speaker E: Thank you very much.
Speaker D: Thank you.
Speaker A: Awesome. All right, we are rocking and rolling and Stephen DeGroote is in the house. Two Canadians in a row. President and co founder at Rivia Consulting and Steven's new book Getting Better. That sounds good to me. Getting to better dot com. Stephen, welcome to episode 899 of Office Hours.
Speaker B: All right, 899 special episode. Thanks for having me. I'm, I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker A: Well I'm looking forward to your book coming out in January. A little bit past my birthday by the way. Uh, anyway, getting.
Speaker B: Well it's out. It came out in January so it's been almost January. This going bad. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A: Going to better A new model for elevating human potential at work in life. You know I was with Nick Saban and we were talking about capability gap.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Uh, in my career I've always talked about Skills and knowledge being your basement delta created by desire, knowledge is now a commodity. Uh, as we were discussing with Dimitri before, you know, you used to be special. With people like, uh, punin and my that are over. Educated people would think we had all this unbelievable knowledge. Now you have an app, and it's way smarter than us and faster than us, and knowledge is a commodity. Uh, how has knowledge changed this capability gap and understanding what capability we do need to getting to better?
Speaker B: Well, you know, it's, it's interesting because you've got, you've got your, you know, key capabilities, I think, which is your systems and functions. You got your core capabilities, which are your people. All right? And uh, you know, in both realms, I think we have too much information. Some of the smartest people are some of the dumbest people I know. Right. Because not only do they not catch up.
Speaker A: Are you talking about my brother that way? The one that went to Harvard and graduated summa cum laude? That guy you met? My brother, obviously.
Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, I work with a lot of recovering. I'm a recovering academic myself. And uh, you know, I believe, you know, a lot of the. You're talking about systems and whether systems work or not and you know, whether they're broken. I mean, systems are, worked perfectly. You know, they're built to work the way that they were designed. So systems aren't really broken. They're working as well as they were developed. It's the people running those systems that are broken nowadays.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And I deal in human capabilities. So if you look at my background, uh, I do a lot of private work with some very smart people, Nobel prize winners, Order, uh, of Canada holders. Um, and one of the things that we're trying to do is change what we think we know about humans because, you know, you can, you can get the systems and the processes perfect, but if you don't have people that are high, uh, energy, they're not focused, they're not commitment, they're not putting in their best effort, our assessment of their capability is inaccurate. Right. And if you look around the world today, human capability is probably suffering more than ever, uh, with the high rates of disengagement, burnout and all of those kinds of things.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: So out of the gate, I'm, ah, I'm a prominent, I'm a prominent person who encourages everybody to reconsider what they think they know.
Speaker A: I know I don't know what I don't know. I know that the longer I go, the less I know. Poonam.
Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I start with the assumption that I don't know. So Stephen, um, you talk about, um, how leadership is not about solving problems, but providing value. And I think that goes across the board with even anything in the service industry.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker D: How does that tie in with leaders that are older and uh, leading Gen Alpha, um, or Gen Z. Gen Alpha's not at work yet, but Gen Z, how does that tie in when the motivations are different and how do they, how do you find, Think that gap is bridged?
Speaker B: Yeah, no, thank you. And um, it's interesting because I have an alternative approach on most things.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And whether it's, uh, baby boomers, Gen Z, Gen Y. Gen Y, not.
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Speaker B: we think that, you know, the thing that I'm discovering is as a, um, as a behavior enthusiast, a human behavior enthusiast, is that the formula is the same for all generations, right? So one of the things about humans, leadership. Leadership is one of the most powerful variables for, for, you know, activating human potential. All you have to do for your own research is think about a great leader versus a not so great leader. How are you performing? How are you functioning? You know, it's, we've, we've kind of over complicated things. Humans are complex, but we're not complicated. When we have leaders that create what I call the three great states. Safe, significant and situated. Where I'm clear on what I'm expected, it's predictable. The environment's predictable. When I feel like I matter, when I feel like my contributions are significant and I feel relatively safe, I show up. I allow myself to demonstrate what I'm capable of fully, uh, and when I don't have that leadership condition that forms the three great states, what we all do is we hide and we hold back. We slow down a bit, we shut down. Have you ever been in a meeting where you're running the clock, where you're looking at the clock going, okay, 17 minutes left. Continue to be interested, continue to like, right. So. So leadership capacity, um, is in both of my books. It is like the number one variable that creates the conditions for humans to show up fully. There's no other variable has a bigger impact on performance. And this is, I work with F35 pilots, uh, surgeons, people in mining, uh, you know, where safety is a big issue. And when quality leadership is there, people are safer. They're performing at high levels and even probably exceeding what they thought they were capable of.
Speaker A: Rob, my friend,
Speaker C: I was waiting on m. Mute. Um, first of all, your certainty, voice tonality and, uh, verbal cadence is on point. And I could I just feel your energy. My question, because you just touched on it about the F35 pilots, but you've also coached gang members, right? So, yeah, here's my question. What's the one thing about motivation and change that turned out to be identical across the entire range?
Speaker G: Yeah.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. Thanks, Rob. The biggest thing I learned from gang members, um, is that when they weren't cooperative and they're often quite violent, you're in danger, in danger. When they didn't feel the three great states, so they didn't feel like they mattered. Right? They didn't feel like they mattered at all. They were a number. They were a, ah, file. Uh, they weren't situated. Like some of them didn't know what social worker was coming, what, uh, who their lawyer was going to be like. So they lived in a constant state where those were compromised. So they're always holding back. But once you created those, and the same is true for F35 pilots. And what's interesting is they reveal something. Once you feel the three great states, this is my model, is, is once you feel the three great states, you reveal what I call your core four. Your needs, your values, your goals and your strengths. Now your strengths, you demonstrate what you're capable of. Right. Like a lot of people I heard over and over, I can't believe he did that. I can't believe he said that. I can't believe he showed up. I can't believe he cooperated.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Like they lived. Like their current performance was not their potential. Now when you go into high potential Performers. Well, they, um, you know, F35 pilots and surgeons, high level surgeons are very similar. Uh, you know, they're. They're often dialed in because they are feeling very situated. They are clear.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Uh, Dimitri talked about the dashboard. You know, uh, F35 pilots have a very clear dashboard. They each have wing wingmen or wing women, and they also have G suits that when things do get a little bit, uh, you know, off balance, they get oxygen, you know, shot into their nose, and they get blood pushed up to their calves into their, you know, into their system. Right. So they're very situated, they're very significant. They all know their role, and they feel safe.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And so when you have those things locked in you, four things happen. Rob and I call them the. The pillars of optimal performance. And they happen in a surgical team, and they happen in a, uh, squadron that works together. First one is energy is positive and high. When you feel the three great states and you're connected to your core four, energy is high and positive. Your focus is sharp and dialed in. You're not distracted. There's nothing else bothering you on your mind. You're not wondering why you're going on this mission. Did I leave the oven on? Uh, you know, and the third thing is their level of commitment. Like, even though they've got lots to do and lots going on, what they're doing now matters most. And they're dialed in on it. Which leads to the fourth pillar, which is their level of effort is beyond abundant.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And that is. We've called it lots of things. Engagement, performance, you name it. Uh, inspiration. But basically, you get outcomes that you couldn't, you know, you would not have imagined prior to this moment.
Speaker A: Yeah, it's amazing. The common denominator of all those people is a desire that they must be what they can be. And providing the core four with the three great states allow for cor. Communication in the power of belief. And remember.
Speaker E: Oh, yeah.
Speaker A: What we think becomes our perceptions, our perceptions become our behaviors, and our behaviors create our outcomes. And it's people like Stephen A. Groot who's empowering the full spectrum of human potential. Uh, as we all know, and Nick Saban said this, uh, as well, to me, said, you know, human nature never changes, Dave, but what it took to be successful 100 years ago is exactly what it takes to be successful today.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, you mentioned. Yeah, yeah, David, you mentioned something so powerful, right? Like, we talk about what we know and what we believe, Right. And in the book, I mean, I lay out a lot of stuff it's like, it's basically, it's the architecture of human resilience is what this book. Because it's like, there's a lot, there's a lot in it and sometimes it's interesting what, what you know. And that's why I call myself a recovering academic, because a lot of us will say, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And everybody around the room, around the table, you're having to go, you know, there's this little bit of nervousness.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: But what if we don't know what we think we know? Right? Because I, I say, I say all the time, like one of the things I discovered on my journey of human behavior, and I talk with all the folks that you see on stages and all the people that we bought their books and stuff like that, and some of them are a little bit disconcerted with what I'm saying. Right? It's, it's because there's something that drove this book. David and Robin Poonam, I'm glad you're here and thanks for having me. Is, is this idea that keeps me up at night, it's like, what's worse than being totally wrong about something? You know, and you think it's like, wow, that sounds pretty, pretty stark. The answer is, uh, is, uh, being wrong a little bit about everything?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And I think from a social psychology perspective, what we think we know about humans and performance, I'm not going to say it's all wrong, but it all needs a chiropractic adjustment. And some of it's working and some of it because a lot of people in the self help industry, they read book after book. Just one second. I just wanted to mute my cough. You didn't want to hear that. You're welcome. Um, is that there's this insidious idea that there's something wrong with you.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And that's where we start. We hear about imposter syndrome. Some of the highest performers on the planet are crippled by anxiety. Uh, right. So what? How can we know more about human behavior at any time in our history, yet we're doing worse by all measures? That's what I kind of call out. I'm like, I think we're cross, threaded, you know, and we got to kind of back it up a quarter turn and uh, have an honest look at the theories that may not necessarily be serving us.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Including mine. I say in the book, in the middle of the chapter, question this one too.
Speaker A: Like, question everything. Michael Singer, uh, Untethered Wisdom his latest, uh, articulates. We don't know. We don't even know what we think we know. Great premise to go with. Uh, the longer we go, the less we know. Getting to better is a journey for all elevated human peoples, uh, and potential, work and life. Uh, learn the core algorithm in a complex matter to betterment ourselves and others. Stephen, we look forward to doing more with you. Love, love the input that you had for our community. What a great impact your book will have and is having. Uh, thank you so much. We'll have you back.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker B: Thank you very much, everyone. Have a great day.
Speaker A: Great job.
Speaker D: Thank you.
Speaker A: Very good. All right, we're two for two. Uh, we'll take it from Canada back to the world champion New York Knicks co, uh, founder and COO at Happy Path. Nobody's happier than the people in New York right now. I think they're still partying. Uh, Happy Path is your path to intelligent testing. And Noah, uh, boards is with us today. Noah, welcome. Noah, can you hear me? Oh, we're having trouble. Gigi, do you check out his audio? Oh, interesting. Um, look, I'm gonna bring on back in Rob and you guys, while we
Speaker C: wait, I want to know where Noah's office is, because I want to watch out of his building for the parade on Thursday. If that's.
Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C: If he's down. If he's down in the canyon of here in that area.
Speaker A: Yeah, it was an incredible series, uh, obviously. Um, anyway, you know, as we're getting Noah back on here real quick, uh, I'm gonna keep the ball rolling by. Oh, there he is. Noah, you back?
Speaker G: Yeah, I am. I believe you should be able to hear me now. Are we doing okay?
Speaker A: We can see.
Speaker G: And Rob, Amazing. Rob, you're welcome whenever you want. Um, hopefully they don't, you know, we can actually even get to the office on Thursday. We'll see.
Speaker A: Yeah, well, Rob will show up. I guarantee it. Anyway, to be happy, give, uh, me an idea what Happy Path is doing to help people be happy.
Speaker G: Yeah, absolutely. Um, hopefully you are making people happy, and specifically in the consulting world. So what the idea of Happy Path really is that, um, today, um, and this is quite technical, but software testing is just a very manual process, uh, especially when you're implementing large, you know, large enterprise platforms for bigger businesses. And so we built this entire company to really make it more accessible to everyone, make it easier, the entire process, and kind of remove the manual nature of it. And so we build using AI. We essentially built, uh, one of the first and most complex um, AI agentic engines that can essentially execute through tests like a human one without you having to do all those clicks, uh, or create job aids manually. And essentially we covered the entire process from end to end. Um, so everything from I need to create tests all the way to I need to build a job aid on how do I do this process in a platform. So not as fun as the New York Knicks winning, I will be very clear about that. But um, still very interesting space and somewhere that was really dying for automation. And luckily with the advancements of LLMs we've been able to provide that.
Speaker A: That's awesome. Hunam, what are you thinking?
Speaker D: So I'm loving this because the last two months I've been representing extraordinary ability software engineers in this space and I've been learning about all the LLM frameworks, the prompt engineering and AI reliability and how important it is. And you don't realize how much work goes beyond behind the scenes to put people in, to move to large enterprise businesses. So what, uh, talk a little bit about why AI reliability is so important for businesses and what scale of business do you represent?
Speaker G: Yeah, so you know, I'll kind of answer the latter first. We represent, you know, everything from a small kind of 80 person shops all the way up to several uh, thousand person companies, um, even tens of thousands of people. And really you know, the great aspect of AI is the scalability and the flexibility where we work just as well as we do for 80, as we do for 80,000 um, in terms of AI reliability. Ah. So within the actual space, um, it's just really important essentially to be able to check not only now, um, what people are doing by hand, but what are agents doing. And so that's a huge kind of area that AI reliability kind of focuses on. And so um, what we're really kind of focused around is ensuring that hey, is everything running stably? Um, are things essentially doing exactly what you're expected? When you kind of lose, when you take your hands off of the controls and you're handing it over to an agent, is it going to handle things effectively? So hobby path, it's kind of an area that we're focused um, in growing into. Um, right now we're kind of managing the whole transition because you know, today, um, everyone's doing things via humans, tomorrow it'll be a mix of the two and you know, next week so to speak it will be completely agents running the whole um, shinbig. And so that's really our focus and that's kind of um, what we're seeing the real struggles are around, hallucinations are around, ensuring that, um, you know, the results and intent are captured. And so a lot of that is what Happy Pass is built upon, is just to ensure that.
Speaker A: Awesome.
Speaker C: Yes. Uh, Noah, congratulations. Uh, and, uh, I guess my question is, I believe this is your third startup and there was two before this. What's the hardest lesson from the earlier ones that you actually internalized this time?
Speaker G: That's a great question.
Speaker C: With the speed of AI.
Speaker G: Yeah. So, um, the hardest lesson I learned from my prior ones was probably don't create physical products. Um, being able to scale digital products significantly easier. Uh, and I really pulled that from the first startup I ever created, which was actually an herbal cigarette company. Um, very quickly I was young enough to realize that, hey, um, uh, there's going to be a lot of barriers to entry with distribution and the idea of physical goods and manufacturing. Um, and that's something that's really great about just building technology in general is that it's very scalable. Um, what I would say also is build a team that you can have a lot of trust in. I think that when I was starting my first couple startups, um, I had this and I feel like this is common, just this concept of like, hey, I need to have all the answers and if I'm going to be the founder, I'm going to be the leader. I need to come at it in a strategy where I can provide confidence across every single domain, every single decision. And as we've gone down to the third and I've been, you know, much better about learning to build teams and choose people that are going to be part of teams. I would say that ensuring the people you choose, um, you trust and have subject matter, domain, basically, um, expertise. Now we're on to Happy Path. This is definitely the largest venture that I've built so far. And I would say that, um, taking those two principles, number one, build digitally, build something that's scalable, very easy to scale, and number two is hire people that also are easy to scale. Um, those two things have just, you know, really enabled us to have a lot more success.
Speaker A: People in process will get you to where you want to be or better. We look forward to seeing you in New York. We'll be there for Fanatics Fest and have a VIP dinner with Rob Gill. Hopefully Putin will be joining us and maybe Rob will swing by on Thursday, but we'd love to have you join us. Noah Bortz Check out the co founder and COO at HappyPath. HappyPath IO it'll change the way that you do things that are more efficient, effective and statistically successful outcomes. Thank you so much. We look forward to seeing you.
Speaker G: Thank you. Chat soon. Bye. Bye.
Speaker A: Um, thanks, Noah. All right, ladies and gentlemen, let's get to the takeaways of today. Ladies first. Poonam, what's your takeaway of the day?
Speaker D: I think for me, I find it so fascinating. I can never get over how fast machinery AI businesses are moving. But I like, uh, we had great guests on. But I love what Stephen does because I wonder, as human beings, are we catching up as fast? And I wonder the impact emotionally, mentally, socially. And I think we need more people like Stephen to elevate human beings to the same level as machines and businesses are moving.
Speaker A: Very interesting. I love it. Mr. Gill.
Speaker C: Yeah, I was very, very impressed with Stephen. Um, I felt like he was, you know, in a short window, you have, he was, his, his heroic, unique identity was on point and he was able to really kind of paint a really good picture. Dimitri, you could tell, is just his glasses are so thick. He could see the future. He's a genius. Um, right. And understanding what he's, what he's talking about, uh, the way he looks at data and um, you know, obviously the, the last gentleman, Noah M. You know, I was super impressed with third startup. Um, you know, I always get a little like foggy when it comes to all this AI stuff because everyone is doing it and we should.
Speaker E: Right.
Speaker C: It's the new electricity, of course. So I, I never know. And important you talked about the frame. I don't know where to start and end. I have, I have my own little AI thing happening here. But to me it gets, I get glazed over pretty fast because I, I'm not an expert in that space. But his certainty was real and I felt like he was, he was powerful in what he was doing.
Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Um, you know, for me, with all three of these people tied into the technology of today, I still just resonate with the power of the human being. I'm not sure we need to catch up to technology because I think technology is always ahead of the perception of human beings. I think for me, the takeaway is let's figure out what we're doing to interfere with this potential that technology allows us. And so, um, in the aspect of AI, we know that acceleration is the biggest, uh, difficulty of AI. It's just such an amazing speed that you, we could start the show in something which talk about it during the show and at the end of the show it would already change. Um, and you know, our reality changes that quick. So, uh, more reliance, like Stephen said, on human nature, on human capability. Um, it's been just a blessing to be around Nick Saban, um, someone who for so many years knows how to bring the best out of people and understands, uh, success and behaviors and discipline and winning, uh, you know, and understanding the individuality and team, uh, that's necessary. One of my favorite lines that I'll end with is, you know, he said, uh, if you build champions, you don't have to worry about winning championships. Because when you have a team of champions, the championships take care of themselves. Uh, and one of the other cool things just, it will get, uh, going. But he said during COVID you know, on March 17, they send everybody home. They're out on the field for spring training. His football team, Alabama. And he brought everybody in. He said, look, you got to go home. Everyone's off campus. He said, but I'm going to tell you this right now. What you do from today on, um, what you do from today on will determine our success. And he came back from COVID 12 and oh, and won the national championship because not one guy missed a meeting, not one guy missed a self practice, not one guy on his team. Uh, and so I build champions, so I win championships. I don't worry about winning championships. And I love that in the aspect of human nature and the desire to be what you must be. I will tell you two of the champions that exist on my team. One is Poonam Bukar, the other is Rob Gill. If you're not following them, if you're not reaching out to them, you're missing out on doing business or having social time with two champions like Rob Gill and Punam Bukar. Thank you guys for joining me on episode 899 of Office Hours.
Speaker D: Thank you, David. Thank you, Rob.
Speaker A: Thank you guys. I'll, uh, see you soon.
Speaker C: Thank you guys.
Speaker A: Love you both. Thank you. All right, that's what we do. It's episode 899 or more. Uh, we are blessed. Just as a reminder, we are in Louisville, Kentucky today with Nick Saban and Matt Ebert. Kalamazoo, Michigan, San Diego, Vegas for season 11 if you're in Chicago, Newport beach with the biggest names. Las Vegas again, All Star game in Philly. Fanatics Fest in New York City. Sofi Stadium in the messy FC Miami night, uh, in London with the biggest private member investment group we have. All you got to do is join our text community to stay informed. It's not easy. We need to use our own text community to know where we're going. 949-298-2905 Enjoy the jingle before and after the show. 949-298-29 05 and email me David means beloved at D is my first initial. Meltzer means servant. Let me be your beloved servant. Email me david meltzer.com Remember, most importantly, be more interested than interesting. Be kind to your future self and do good deeds. Hit it Gigi.
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