Emma-Louise Parkes on Why Creative Introverts Struggle to Niche Down

Speaker A: Emma, officially welcome to the show. I'm very happy for you to be here.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. I'm happy that you invited me.

Speaker A: I know we had a good time on your podcast and, uh, we're going to talk a little bit about how you came to serve ambitious introverts, how you arrived at that niche. Uh, some of the decision making process, the challenges, the psychological stuff, the fears, the uncertainty, and even some of the fun stuff, the immediate, uh, positive feedback and reinforcement you got when you kind of put that out there to your list and to your audience. I think a lot of, of, um, I mean, I was telling somebody this the other day. Like, I ran into like a, I guess a higher level person and they were talking about how they're going through the same thing. You know, hey, I really like this brand over here, but it's not really taking off the way I want. And this thing over here I'm really passionate about, but it's not specific. And like, everybody's having these kinds of conversations where we're always wondering, okay, are we in the right niche? Is my brand right? And is my brand attracting the right people, even in the niche that I'm in? And do I need to, like, change and shift and tighten things up? And you were going through this, uh, in 2020. So let's set the scene a little bit first. So give me the basics. Who you are, where you are, what you do, before we dive into the background story.

Speaker B: So I am the founder and CEO of the ambitious introvert brand, and I'm a certified business consultant, mindset coach, and energy practitioner. And I work exclusively with introverts, empaths, m and highly sensitive entrepreneurs who are looking to start, grow or scale an online business.

Speaker A: And I would put myself into that highly sensitive category. I wouldn't have known before I ran across you that I would have put myself in that category. We talked about that on your show a little bit. So, yeah, people should go check out your podcast because I did your show and I think my episode, uh, will be coming up, uh, live, if it's not already by the time people are hearing this episode. So go check that out. Um, and, uh, so you gave a little bit about who is the right person. Is there any particular industries that you really like or commonalities in the clients that come to you where they get a ton of value out of working with you because they're in a specific space or they have specific projects?

Speaker B: I think just because of the niche, I get a lot of creatives, so a lot of Interior designers, brand designers, um, a lot of copywriters, a lot of people in that very creative space. I've got coaches, consultants as well. But I just think there's something about the sensitive introvert that kind of lends itself to the more artistic type.

Speaker A: That makes sense, yes. In a previous life, I've been the brooding artist, musician type. So I can relate to that. Um, okay, so that's what you're doing now. So take us back a little bit. So it's 2020. Uh, the world has lost its collective mind. You know, it's insanely stressful. People are trying to figure out if their businesses are even going to stay afloat. Uh, you're having a little bit of, um, a reexamination of your business. We won't go into kind of what you were doing at the time. Just tell us a little bit about what got you thinking that you needed to shift your brand or kind of shift how you were putting yourself out there into the market.

Speaker B: So I had kind of refused to niche for about 18 months at that point. Since I brought the business online, I'd been coaching. Well, I'd been certified coach since 2006. I'd been coaching in my old job for about 10 years. So I had all this experience of coaching, none of marketing, none of business building. And I didn't want a niche because when you're a trained coach, they tell you, hey, you can coach anyone with anything. So I was like, I want to coach anyone with anything.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Then 2020 happened. And, um, 2020 for me was particularly galling because I just left said job of 17 years in January 2020 to take the business full time. I'd secured a couple of really big months coming up, doing in person coaching, which is what I was focusing on. And then of course I couldn't because everything in person got cancelled. I left my job. It was very much a. Okay, I really need to get serious about this and I need to make it work. And I realized by that point I need to niche.

Speaker A: Yeah, I was, I was thinking, um, it occurred to me, just the creative part that you mentioned, I think that's part of what we have a hard time with. Niching down in general, or niching down that's always so irritating that we have two different pronunciations for that. But anyway, uh, so creativity, I think that's one of the toughest parts because in business a lot of times boring works and being really, really, really specific and clear and putting yourself into a box that's easy for other people to understand. Is the best thing to do from a marketing and sales perspective. On the other end, you've got us, uh, creative person who's running a lot of times a business that's all based around us and our preferences. And we want to dabble. You know, like, we want the creative challenge. You want to work with brand designers, interior designers, this type of person, that creative. Uh, and yeah, there's. It seems like there's always a tension between the creative projects that we want to undertake and trying to make ourselves really easy for people to understand and figure out what kind of box we can put ourselves in that other people would like to unwrap. Um, so I don't know if you can encounter that with your clients too, but it's interesting. I mean, to me, that's. That's one of the reasons why we have such a hard time niching down. Does that resonate with you? Do you feel that pull to kind of work with all kinds of different people because of the creative challenge?

Speaker B: 100%. And I love people. Even though I'm an introvert, I love. I find people fascinating. I love having conversations with people. And, uh, up to that point, I had coached people on so many various things. You know, I loved my coach, and because it was so different. But then, as you say in the online space, from a marketing, business growth point of view, it doesn't make sense to say, hey, come on, everyone, I'll help you with anything. So I did definitely feel that resistance. Like, am I closing the door here? You know, um, am I closing the door to all of this great stuff? And actually, it's just not true. I think it closed the door, but it allowed the right people through. But the depth and the breadth of what I helped them with behind the scenes is still there. I'm still completely, completely creatively fulfilled in that way.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that, because that's so true. Because once you get somebody in the door, they may come in for the. For the. The tip of your iceberg, essentially, and then you end up having the ability to get your creative fulfillment by helping them with all this other stuff. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. Okay, so when you were thinking through your niche and you're going, okay, I don't think I'm niche down enough. So what were. What were some of the possibilities that sprang to mind when you were kind of in that phase before you selected ambitious introvert as the niche?

Speaker B: So I signed up for a beta group with a brand strategist, um, that I'd happened just to hear about on a podcast. I was like, that's probably what I need right now, some brand strategy to get clear on who I help. So two weeks into that, I was kind of turning up to all the calls, doing all of the homework, and I was kind of getting closer, and I was like, it's gotta be people that have done some kind of personal development, or they've gotta be a little bit intellectual or they've gotta be, like, a bit outside the mold. And I was coming up with all these concepts. None quite made sense other than they were all like me. And then, um, I literally. It was like the biggest download moment. It. Everything dropped in and made sense, and I just went, it's introverts. Of course it is that. That's why I had struggled with marketing online. You know, the whole, like, we talked about on my podcast, the whole social media thing, the whole, you know, like, hamster wheel of content creation. And, uh, none of that was down to my ability or a bad mindset. It was down to my energy. So literally just dropped in and I got on this next call with the strategist. It was a group call, and I said, it's introverts, empaths, and highly sensitives. And about two thirds of the people on the call were like, that's me. And if you wrote that down, if I saw your profile, I would be following you. And, um, that was it. It was born. And I started the podcast a few months later.

Speaker A: Oh, wow. Okay. So that was like a bolt, a bolt of. Of lightning. Like this flash of insight. Yeah, I would. I think. What did I. What did I call those one time? Like, a clarity breakthrough or something like that. Like, there's. There's a whole bunch of different, uh, names for it, but that really what it is, what it is. Like, clarity is cyclical. And all of a sudden you hit this point and bam, you break through into this new cycle of clarity, and you got some positive reinforcement right off the bat. We talked about some other things that happened once the brand came out, but I didn't know you got that kind of reinforcement during the brainstorming process. That's hugely, hugely helpful. Um, let me ask. So I don't know. I don't know if you thought about this at all, but when you think about branding, uh, and, like, how you put yourself out there, you could have not called out introverts, and you could have just put yourself out there in a style and in a way that attracted that kind of person without limiting yourself to introverts. So did you, did that even cross your mind or did you just get such immediate feedback on introverts that you just went all in on that right off the bat?

Speaker B: I'm an all in kind of girl and I went all in. And I think with everything, like I said, that was going on in the world, all of the transition and everything, and I felt, you know, and I think this is an introvert thing. I felt it very strongly physically. You know, I had that gut, uh, reaction that I was, I was like, yes. And I think probably up, uh, to that point I did put myself out into the world in a way that did attract those people. But I think it gave me more confidence in what I did to call it out. And it definitely got like, you know, a great immediate response, as you heard.

Speaker A: Um, okay, so then let's talk about the fears of alienating the audience in the list that you already had. So walk me through what happened when you come out with the ambitious introvert brand. What was the response, uh, versus what you expected?

Speaker B: So for some, just a little backstory. I just signed a new client about a month before who did her Myers Briggs type indicator test when we started working together and was 91% extroverted. So my latest client was 91% extroverted. And I'm about to go. I work with introverts. So that was like the forefront of my mind going, okay, like maybe she wouldn't have signed up. And she was great and I love working with her. Uh, fun fact, I still work with her two years later because she's actually an empath and highly sensitive. So, okay, you know, we geld and it made sense. But so that was in my mind, I didn't have a huge audience, so I wasn't so scared of losing people. But it was more like, will people get this? Do you, do these people even know that they're introverts? Are they that self aware? It was, it was whether it was going to land with the right people that I knew I could help. Um, but yet the instant response was people dming me saying, that's me, I'm an ambitious introvert. Or dming me to say, oh, have you always done this? Like, I love this. And some of these people reaching out were actually brand experts. And I was like, okay, this is definitely good because if they love it, I must be onto something.

Speaker A: That is true. As I say, not only is that your ideal client, but it's the people that should know good brand, good positioning when they see it. That's by the way, that's highly theoretical and not at all actually what's happening in real life with brand strategists, sadly. But anyway, um, so you get this immediate feedback. You had a list that wasn't insanely large enough to the point where you're like, okay, this is going to crash my business if half these people walk away. And I think you mentioned that you weren't afraid to necessarily lose them because they were small. What I think that's an illustration of is you saw what was right in front of you. Yes. But you're looking at the bigger pool of the people that aren't in your world yet, of who you could pull in and attract if you get the branding and the positioning right. And I'm sure you notice this with clients. That's one of the biggest struggles is to get them to focus on the people that aren't in their world yet, uh, as opposed to the people that are in their list. Because the people in the list have names and faces. And you feel like, okay, those people could turn around and write me a check tomorrow. It's really hard to turn those away and go find the people that you don't know yet, who don't have names and faces and aren't in your list yet. Uh, people just have a hard time with that. And I don't know what was different about you and why you were able to make that, that transition a lot easier, but I'm sure you've noticed that people have really, really struggled with that.

Speaker B: Well, I had ghosted this list as well while I was in my transition stage, so I think that kind of made it easier. I didn't feel so much of a connection. So much of a connection.

Speaker A: So the practical advice is ghost your list for a while.

Speaker B: However, I've had a client that has just gone through this as, uh, she's rough find her niche again, and she has felt very much like. But some of these people signed up 10 years ago for something completely different. And you know what is going to happen when I announce that this is what I'm doing now. And I just think it's down to that trust. So I remember sending them an email to say, like, hey, you signed up for, I don't know, money. Mindset. Journal prompts, I think was the opt in at the time, but I'm actually now going to be focusing on business and mindset for introverts, empaths and highly sensitive entrepreneurs. And, you know, it's quite different. I was like, you know, thank you for being here, but feel free to unsubscribe if you're not interested. No one unsubscribed. And, uh, I think, I think two people, definitely one. I think it's two messaged me to say, oh, this is great because I'm an introvert or I'm looking forward to seeing your content.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's just that when I think about, you know, the people that are in our space that are big names, um, especially big name authors and speakers. So look at, you know, someone like a Robert Kiyosaki. So he writes rich dad, poor dad, the money space is huge. He ends up being like the guy to speak on monies. Right. So if you're running a conference and you want somebody to come in and speak on money, it's like, okay, well, it's Kiyosaki and then it's everybody else. But it's so rare to come right out of the gate and write a book or get your brand right to the point where you never, ever have to pivot. You never have to change niches, you never have to refine anything. Everything that Kiyosaki has ever done and ever will do will be around money. And it all fits within that thing that started with rich dad, poor dad. And I think that's what people, I don't know if they maybe set the expectation that that should be everyone. And then if you're not like that, something's wrong with you. I, uh, like, I just, I don't think that's true. Especially in an era where now, I don't know if you feel this way, but it feels like the time horizon for building, like, profitable businesses online seems to be shrinking to the point where you can come up with a business model. It's like, okay, that works. You've got maybe five years to max out that business model. And something's got to change, like ad costs, the way you get clients, the way people consume content. Like, something is going to change in five years. It's going to cause you to seriously have to shift some, somehow, some way. Uh, because it just, it's not like it was when you could build a business in the 80s and that business would just keep rolling virtually the same way for 10, 15 years. Everything seems to be shrinking. And so I think we all need to get more comfortable with, you know, pivoting, changing niches, refining things like that without, I guess, without the self judgment. That's what I notice a lot. And I'm sure you notice that with clients is just there's a lot of self judgment because if we, if we're not like a Kiyosaki or a Tony Robbins who came out with one book, one brand and bam, we can do that for the next 40 years of our lives. We seem to think there's something wrong with us.

Speaker B: And I attract a lot of perfectionist clients and I think it's down to that introvert integrity as well. Like we don't want to put something out into the world unless it's perfect and it has to be this. But you know, people that are in the earlier days of their business, that is something that I have to do a lot of support around to say get, get it out. Like make it 80% right and get it out. Because we need to test it, we need to see what the feedback is and you can tweak and you can refine it. So if we're doing some kind of competitor analysis or working out where they sit in the market, it's okay if we do it again in three months and it's different or we do it again in six months. Like don't feel like you've got to set this in stone. And I think with niche in particularly that's where people worry because they feel like they're kind of getting married to it and it's this huge commitment and uh, once they've said it, it can never change. But even within, well, almost two years now of this niche, I would say my messaging has shifted even in that. Because what I focused on early days was more about, you know, clarity and visibility because those have been my struggles. But obviously I've grown, I've, you know, learned a lot more, I've taken more certifications. So now I'm supporting entrepreneurs at a higher level. So I'm talking about different things and talking maybe about self sabotage or consistency. So it's still within that, that niche. But to know that, that fluidity, you know, you're going to grow with your business, your business is going to grow along with you.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's both a good and bad thing. Um, I've noticed that a lot of people, you know, as they get further along their kind of self realization journey, they want to start helping people with higher level things and sometimes that starts to shrink your pool of ideal clients. Mhm. And you have to know that going in. So either you're okay with that or you're not okay with that and you have to stay down at the, below the level that you're currently at. You know, there's, there's a, there's a real estate Coach who is in his 80s. He's like the OG of coaching in that, in that space. He's, hey, like, he zeroed in on a message that worked really, really well for beginners in the 70s, and he never strayed. He still literally is packing it up and speaking to new agents in offices, you know, and traveling and stuff like that. His message has never changed. And he is, I would say, probably the wealthiest coach in the space, right? Because he looked at the space, he's like, look, 80% of the entire business turns over every three years. There's way, way, way more beginners than there will ever be higher level people. So even though I would like to talk about higher level stuff like health and things like that, he's like, when I would talk about those things, I would notice that the room would not be as full when people would be hanging out in the hallways. Like when I talk about prospecting and Legion, bam, the room is full and they're in the front seat. I was like, okay. So he looked at that, he looked at those dynamics and said, yeah, I could, as I grow and mature, I could go hang out only with people that are at that level or right behind me and I could only coach them, or I could stay in this and I can always help beginners and I can make a lot of money doing that. He made his choice, but the point is it was an intelligent, intentional, strategic choice. I think a lot of people get themselves into situations where they're experiencing that, but they're not making that choice intentionally. And they go, hey, now I want to talk about this super high level thing while. And they end up leaving their audience, uh, behind. So I think those, those are choices that, like, if people work with someone like you, they can start to make those choices a lot more intentionally. And then it explains what's happening in their business and the response that they're getting from people without all the confusion, I guess, and lack of clarity. So I'm, uh, curious, when you look at helping someone work, work their way through this process and they're, they're in the early days of figuring out what their niche is. You mentioned feedback you're having like this two way conversation. What kinds of feedback are you looking for? Different for each client? Um, are you looking for a sense of, like, momentum, or are you just looking for encouragement and feedback from their current audience? What are some indicators that lets you know a client is on the right track when they're picking out their niche?

Speaker B: So one of the things that I always do is ask them um, you know, if they are further along in business and they've already worked with clients, who are your three favorite clients that you worked with, and then we'll do a deep dive into what did you help them with, what were they struggling with when they came, what was the transformation at the end? And what do these people have in common? This is kind of similar to what got me to ambitious introverts, because when I did this kind of exercise myself, I saw that people that I loved working with were action takers. So, yeah, you could have a shy, anxious introvert that, uh, you know, doesn't want to show their face, but you can have an ambitious introvert. People like us, you know, still going to get out there, take action, do things. They just want to do it with a little bit more intention. So I think looking and knowing that is the key for a lot of clients because that gives them the confidence to say, oh yeah, I love working with those people. They worked with me and they got results. Actually, if I talk about that, I will attract more of that. That's one really great way of feedback. Another if they're earlier days is get outside of their comfort zone and just connect and talk to people. You know, connections, coffee calls, clarity calls, however they want to do it. Just, you know, I say just talk to people and just understand them because even a 20 minute conversation, even if that person's never going to be a client, you will, you will get so much information about whether that's the type of person that you want to be working with.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree 100%. Um, I would add to that, uh, being in the podcast space, one of the interesting newer ways to figure out if you've got a compelling message and something that like, gets people's attention, uh, and see if you've got a good niche that actually has, um, the ability to get traction is to start reaching out to podcasts and see if they want to interview you about that topic and just see what the response is. And if you get crickets, maybe, maybe it's not the greatest niche ever, uh, because you should get that response of like, oh my God, I didn't know you did that. I don't know anybody was talking about this. Yeah, absolutely, let's jump on a podcast and talk about that. So, yeah, it's always a two way conversation, right, with the market, with your audience, with the people that you hope to reach. But I love the idea of starting with your three ideal clients that I kind of stumbled on that, uh, a few years ago, which is how I arrived at who my agency is targeted at, and it was starting to be exactly that. I asked myself if somebody, like, flew into San Diego and just texted me out of the blue and said, hey, Matt, let's grab a drink. Let's grab a coffee, like, who do I want to get that. That call from? And that got me to, uh, ask myself that exact question, which is, okay, well, who are the two or three people that I actually want to hear from? Okay, here's what they're like. Here's how they come in. Here's what they believe. Uh, and that's. Yeah, that's part of what led to writing the book, is that I wanted more of those people. I wanted more of those people.

Speaker B: That's high praise as an introvert that you would, you know, look at your phone and go and meet anyone for a drink last minute. So they must be good people.

Speaker A: Yes. And what's funny about is I realized that those other people that would reach out were also introverts. Ambitious introvert, ambitious, driven introverts. Of course, they were like, we like to hang out with each other. Like, ambitious, driven introverts like to hang out with other introverts because the energy dynamic is nice. Uh, and we can have good conversations, and we don't walk away, uh, from it feeling drained sometimes, like we do when we're trying to keep up with a really bubbly outgoing extrovert. You know, that can be very energy draining. Um, let's finish with this. So, uh, first of all, what's the best way for people to connect? I mentioned your podcast, but I want to go beyond that. Um, and then we'll talk a little bit about, um, maybe a couple of other final questions and wrap things up. So what's the best way for people to connect?

Speaker B: The podcast is always the best way. I adore podcast. It is what I pump my heart and soul into every week. So definitely check me out there. And probably the next best place, I'm going to say, is my Facebook group, which is interesting because I'm not a huge Facebook user at all, but I've created a community called the Ambitious Introvert Network. And it is just a lovely group. It's promo friendly. There's people in there from all different industries, and it's a real safe space. People come in and, like, ask questions like, hey, I'm in this marketing program, and I think it's, like, geared extroverts, and they're asking me to do this. Like, what do you guys think? Um, and it's just really Nice to be able to um, I think share your views of the online space in a place like that. Tens of people make connections. They've um, collaborated together, signed clients in there. So, um, yeah, if you're more of a Facebook person, then come and join us in the ambitious introvert network.

Speaker A: I love it. Okay, so last question. What kind of changes have you made over the last couple of years just for yourself in your own business? Knowing that you're an introvert, knowing that your social time is limited, your energy for being social is limited. Um, any interesting schedule changes, boundaries maybe that you've kind of built up in your life that help you, support you and your, your energy boundaries have been

Speaker B: a big thing for me because especially coming out of a 23 year corporate role to working at home m during a pandemic, running my own business. So physical and energetic boundaries. So I have physical boundaries in place in the house about places that I do not work on the laptop. Like I will not work on the laptop on the sofa.

Speaker A: Oh, interesting. Oh, okay. Places where you have to work.

Speaker B: Yeah, because it doesn't.

Speaker A: The energy of business doesn't get into the energy of that, that physical location.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because I want to go and sit on the sofa in the evening and like kick back and watch Jeopardy. And that's my way of decompressing. So like, why would I want the laptop there with that? So that, that is. I love Jeopardy. That is, yeah. Physical boundaries in that way, but also energetic boundaries around time. So very much about making sure that I'm closing the laptop at a certain time, you know, that I don't get off, say this call and oh, I'll just check my email to be like, no, that's me finished for the day. Close the laptop. And something that I do that always makes people laugh is I delete any work related apps off my phone every evening and all weekend.

Speaker A: No way. Like, what are we talking about?

Speaker B: Uh, well, what have we got? I've got Instagram, so that goes every evening, every weekend. Voxer and Slack, so Wow. Yeah, I have my team and my clients on Slack and some clients use Voxer, so they just delete them. I just literally delete them every evening and they don't get reinstalled until I'm in the office the next morning.

Speaker A: I love it. I haven't done that. That's an interesting thing. I, I've deleted Facebook and Instagram off my phone. Uh, and for the most part kept them off because I'm not a big social media junkie anyway, so that's actually fairly easy for me. Um, and I don't have, like, my team doesn't actually vox for me that much. I don't have clients, box, ring or texting or things like that. So I have those apps. Don't. Like, if they were super disruptive, I could totally see myself doing that. But I haven't had to take that step, and I don't have slack, so that makes a lot of sense. I love that you go through the time and effort of deleting it and reinstalling it and signing back in every day and every weekend. That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

Speaker B: I know it sounds awful because I love my business and I love what I do, but. But I do think it's important to have that separation. And, you know, I don't have notifications on, obviously, but I still see the apps. If I open my screen and I talked about it on the podcast and someone emailed me, and she was like, I would never even have thought to do this. She's like, you give me so much permission.

Speaker A: I was like, so I have. I have all notifications silenced, turned off, eliminated, deleted, whatever. I, uh, don't even have my text. The link to get in my text messages is not anywhere on my home screen. It's in a folder, and it's buried on another page. I literally.

Speaker B: That is why we get along.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. All right, let's wrap it up there. Hopefully people can identify with it. I love that idea. Everyone that's listening that has, like, needy coaching clients is going, oh, I wonder if I can do that. Um, yes, you can do it. We give you permission.

Speaker B: Change your life. That's right.

Speaker A: All right, thanks so much, Emma. I appreciate your time.