Inside Executive Coaching with Nathan Tanner

Narrator: For Today's essential Heretics 101 feature, executive coach Nathan Tanner shares transparent revenue numbers, client acquisition strategies, and why operator experience trumps weekend certifications.

Host: All right, hey, everybody. Welcome back to HR Heretics. Today we have Nathan Tanner joining us as a guest. Nathan was at LinkedIn before joining DoorDash as an HR leader. He was then the head of people at Neighbor and is now one of the best leadership coaches that I know. So, Nathan, thanks so much for joining us. Nathan, actually, where I want to get into is with coaching. And why did you want to become a coach?

Nathan Tanner: Yeah, so I had actually, when I moved into hr, I met a couple of coaches. It was actually first at LinkedIn, I was responsible for vetting coaches for this high development, high potential leadership program that we had. And I just thought, like, that would be the coolest job ever. The coolest job. But it wasn't until I had this experience at DoorDash that I really started moving in that direction. Um, like, DoorDash was an incredibly rewarding place to work. It was a very challenging, uh, time period and challenging role for me. And I just had this moment a couple of years in where I just felt completely stretched and I couldn't stretch anymore. Like, work responsibilities, personal responsibilities. We had three kids at the time, we have four now, uh, church responsibilities. Just, like, everything came crashing down. And I literally found myself one Sunday morning, like, on the floor, like, crying uncontrollably. And it hit me so hard of like, I can't do this anymore. Like, I got to get my stuff together. Like, if I'm going to show up for other people, I need to better take care of myself. And so I actually went out and hired a coach. I worked on a lot of different things, and the experience I had working with a coach, plus all the HR experience that I had put me on that path to then ultimately becoming a coach and helping people who are in situations like that where they're struggling with work and all the responsibilities to, uh, uh, make real progress.

Host: So help the audience understand, like, what does a good coach actually do?

Nathan Tanner: Yeah, so, so high level. Any coach you're going to work with is going to help you accomplish your goals. But what I have found is a lot of people who are like, completely in over their heads and in the biggest job they've ever had before, whether they're a startup CEO, head of people, whatever it may be, and they're like, something needs to change. But if you work for the company and you're like the HRBP leader to an Executive or even the head of people you're working with, the CEO. It is a very different relationship than someone who has been hired from outside of the company to come in and work with them. And so the level of vulnerability I get with the clients that I work with is 10x what any leader at uh, DoorDash neighbor, LinkedIn we was, was going to give me. Like I'm going to push on the leader to an extent. But ultimately like my, my job's kind of on the line where right now I'm a coach, I'm working with 13 different clients. You think I'm an idiot, I push you too far, you fire me. Okay, cool. But like you are paying me specifically to do this job and so like I can push you and I can say things to you that someone who is in an HR leadership role may not be able to get away with.

Host: Nathan M. Tell us about in your mind what makes a great coach and how should a potential client assess for those traits?

Nathan Tanner: Yeah, um, I think the first, the first thing that makes for a great coach is experience. Like you don't need to be a coach for 10, 15 years but like you have to have been in the arena doing interesting things. Um, like I think being an HR leader is a great place to go. Any sort of operator where you're like at board meetings in the conversation when like really meaningful uh, topics are being discussed, like that level of experience where you felt that weight and, and you feel like you might be like breaking down or really challenged. That I think is really important. And a lot of coaches don't have that, which we can come back to in a second. So like that's it. The second piece I would say is training. Can you ask powerful questions? Can you build trust with the person that you're working with? I think empathy and intuition are also very important. There's a level of accountability as well. I'm like. A successful coach requires three jobs. The first is to find clients. Like you have to be able to find people and persuade them to work with you. The second is you actually have to coach them, which is where most of the people spend time on. Then the third is like you are running a business assuming you're a self employed individual, which I think most coaches are. Like you have to send invoices, you have to figure out your taxes, you have to, you have to run the business around it. And like if you are just good at one or two of those things, um, like it's not, it's not going to work out.

Host: Yep, this is a debated topic. You know, one of the issues that I have with the proliferation of coaching is that you have a bunch of people who have no experience in the arena.

Speaker D: Hm.

Host: I call them like the weekend warriors who now, you know, they went, uh, on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and now they're a certified life and executive coach and they're out there telling people who are actually building real shit how to operate. Like, for me, that feels like a complete. It's a miss, uh, and it just doesn't seem like relevant at all as

Nathan Tanner: I think about what you need, how you should go about assessing a coach. It's first and foremost, like, what have they actually done? Does this person understand the unique challenges that I am going through? And this is why I often work with startup CEOs, because, like, I have been there. Like, I know what it's like. You know, you need to be in the arena. Have you operated at that level? Do you know the environment?

Host: What you're saying there is, like, you have lived life as a startup operator such that now you are uniquely qualified to provide advice to people that are going through that journey themselves.

Nathan Tanner: Yeah, yeah.

Narrator: And this world, that matters a lot. I mean, it's everything. And no one's going to hire you for. Talk about theoretical models. They want you to help them get through the shit because you've done it before and you can help them see around the corners.

Nathan Tanner: And I am, I am a trained certified coach. Uh, I can walk through credentials. I don't think that is the end all be all. No one ever asks me, like, what, where did you get certified? What was that process? Like, how thorough was it? They do all of the time. Ask me, tell me about your experience at Doordash. Tell me about your experience at neighbor or coaching other people who are in similar situations to me. I lead from the perspective of a coach. And what I mean by that is I lead with questions. I challenge assumptions. I'll call BS if I see it like I am a trusted thought partner, but I will, like, take off the coaching hat and provide advice when people are ready for it and say, this is what I've seen the past companies. And that I think is a tricky balance because if you just lead from experience and advice, I don't think it's super valuable. But if you only lead with questions like, that's not going to work either. And so it is a tricky balance of like, when do I bring in the advice piece versus, like, keeping what I call the coaching hat on.

Host: Okay, so I've worked with three coaches now personally, and I find that in the nine to 12 month range, I have like extracted 80% of their brain. And I kind of know what they're going to tell me in the session is. My take is, is like, that's the time to like go and get a new coach and see if there's like, uh, other tools that I need to add to my tool belt. And so I've said um, in the past that I think you should fire your coach every nine to 12 months. What's your take on that?

Nathan Tanner: All of my engagements start with six month commitments. Generally we renew for another six months. Nolan. It's funny, I went back and looked at the data of the average tenure, if you will, of my clients and it is just over one year. And I hope that this is a relationship that ultimately you graduate from or move on from. And in your mind you're thinking, oh, I wish I had a session with Nathan right now. If I was going to ask him this question, what might he push me on? Or what advice might he give? And like, maybe I can shortcut this and figure it out myself. But the coaching relationship, uh, can at times like get a little bit stale. And so I love starting with new people and building that, building, building that relationship and figuring it out over time.

Narrator: Hey everyone.

Speaker D: We'll be right back in a moment

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Narrator: How do you, how do you find new people, Nathan? Like, how, how have they come to you? Um, what's your limit? Right.

Nathan Tanner: Balancing quality and quantity in terms of finding clients. Early on, when I was going through the certification process, I had to hit a hundred hours of coaching and it had to be paid. It built relationships. And so now those people have referred me to others and that continues to happen. So the number one source of new clients is current or past clients. Um, I'll get a decent amount of introductions from VCs, which has been really helpful. What hasn't worked? I joined this coaching marketplace and I won't share the name, but like, it was the most arduous process to like get selected and get picked. Um, and I was like, cool. Once I make it, I won't have to worry about business development. My clients are just going to be like referred left and right. And I have gotten zero clients from that. There are a lot of promises and opportunities around, like, you know, easy, easy business development or easy opportunities, or so it seems. But like, almost everything has just come from my network from people, from people that I know. And those are relationships that have been built over decades.

Host: You have to build your own book. Like, there is just no substitute for building your own book.

Nathan Tanner: So you guys put out, uh, an excellent episode. I'm going to plug you guys, if that's okay. An excellent episode on networking. And if you have not listened to that, go back and do it. We have under invested in networking and building relationships and staying in touch with people that we like. And like, that is really, really critical.

Narrator: It's. Yeah, it's so funny you said that, Nathan, because I was just thinking about that episode in my head, um, right before you said it. But I can't tell you again even now. I mean, I had someone last week say, hey, we worked together like eight years ago. I'm in this new role. Can you help me? Like once a month, something like that. Right. And all these folks are now leaders from 15 years ago and they remember you from these companies or you help someone just altruistically. It's, it's, it's probably one of my biggest passions in this industry.

Nathan Tanner: So definitely.

Host: Amen.

Nathan Tanner: Definitely.

Host: All right, Nathan, let's continue with the, the economics of coaching. So talk to us about, like, you know, when you were a W2 employee, you know, you're making a good tech salary and then you go become a coach. Like what were your expectations and what is actual reality for you?

Nathan Tanner: This is a very uncomfortable thing to talk about. I'm happy to do it because I think that this is a black box for many people. Like we just, we just don't know what people make in various roles in various industries. And so for me, when I was at Doordash, uh, the salary I had around the time I left was 240k. That was cash comp. That excludes equity. And when I launched my coaching business my goal was like okay, I'm not trying to optimize for income, but there is a certain level I need to make to like take care of my needs. Um, and so very first client that I worked with, um, this is before I made the jump was a three month engagement for fifteen hundred, fifteen, um, hundred dollars, three months. Um, I made the kind of, which, which, which isn't, which isn't that much. And if you're building your business on engagements like that, it's not, it's not going to work. But that engagement led to lots of others. And so I think one of the things you, you didn't ask is like what should you be doing now if you ultimately want to launch a coaching business or consulting business? And that is to start doing it on the side and start getting comfortable and, and familiar with charging people money, even if it's not ultimately what you're going to. So um, January through July of 2022, while I was doing this kind of on the side, um, during that seven month period my business did 22k. Um, in August of 2022 I made the full time jump into coaching. And during the last five months of that year, uh, I did 120k. Um, so for the year I was around 142, um, 2023 was my first full calendar year being a coach. Um, and the business did 335k that year, which quite frankly I was really, really happy with. My goals were much lower because like the first year I'm like, I don't even know if I can do this. I'm going to set aside enough savings to figure it out. And like I want to do this. I hope we can do this. And let's, let's, let's go for it. Um, 2024 may be lower than 2023. Uh, Q1 was better than any quarter I've had in the past. Um, right now we've talked about the book A little bit. But like, I'm really focused on like making the book as successful as possible. So I've actually reduced the number of clients I had. 16 was my peak. Um, right now I'm at 11. Um, and that's, you know, that's somewhat intentional.

Narrator: That's, that's awesome. And you know, for those of us, myself included, you know, thinking about at some point going independent into consulting. Right. That 335k might seem like a shit ton of money. But remember, that's not your salary at doordash when your benefits are covered, everything else, so you're, you're having to fund a lot of stuff out of that. So it's not uncommon for even a 500k annual salary to kind of be just enough considering all the other things you have to do on your own.

Nathan Tanner: Yeah, and it's, it's a great point. And I found that it's really lumpy. So I often will charge clients, uh, the full amount, full kind of six month fee up front. Sometimes it's split across three different payments. And so I have months sometimes that are larger than the next three months.

Narrator: Interesting.

Nathan Tanner: And it's very different. Like you're in a salaried role and you get your paycheck and you can manage to that where me, like if all the money comes in and I go spend all that money, like I might bring in 2000 the next month and it's like, okay, well now, uh, I'm in a world of hurt.

Narrator: So I love this, I love how we're demystifying this because it, you're right, it has been a black box. Everyone's like, oh, these fancy exec coaches, they're making all this money. What are they doing? So it's actually very helpful. And how do you get these rates? I mean, is there a compensia or radford for executive coaching? How do you know?

Nathan Tanner: Yeah, it's, it's a really good question. So I, I heard, uh, in the research that I did, I saw this, I remember when I was making the jump that the average coach makes 50k in their first year and 30% of coaches don't make it past year one. Um, and so like it can be really hard. I know coaches who are all over the place, you know, 100k for a six month engagement or coaches who are like eight, a very, very, very small fraction of that. Um, and so I share this. Not to say this is good, this is bad. It's really a wild wild west. And so there isn't a compensia I've talked to coaches, and some of them, I've built a relationship and they've told me where they're at. Some are much, much higher than where I was at last year. Others are lower. Um, and I think it also really depends on, like, what are you optimizing for? Like, if you're trying to maximize individual compensation, this may not be the route for you. You may be better off going out and getting a, getting a corporate job.

Host: The other thing I've noticed, even with consulting, as we've seen it through continuum, is that every single one of these consultant markets are n of 1. Like, and so it is. Are you in demand? Is your specific skill in demand?

Nathan Tanner: Yeah.

Host: And so, like, the rates we've seen just. I mean, there, the delta is massive between the top end and the low end. And it's the number one question we get is like, well, what should I charge? And I always tell people is like, well, if you're asking that question, it should be lower than you think. And because if you don't know the answer to that question, you don't have enough reps and you don't have a line out the door waiting for you. And once you start building your book and you have a line out the door, that's the time to start increasing rates.

Nathan Tanner: One of the things I was optimizing for was, uh, the number of clients that I had. It wasn't revenue. I wanted to get to 10 clients as quickly as possible. I intentionally went after seed series a, Series B CEOs who were underserved and had never hired a coach before. Every time I talked to a startup CEO, their decision was, do I hire Nathan or do I do nothing? And so then I came in at a rate that, like, some of my coaching friends would laugh at. Uh, and I'm like, I don't care. That's not what I'm optimizing for. And so over time, I have been able to. I still work with startup CEOs a lot, but I've been able to work with larger companies where you can charge a higher rate.

Narrator: One last question on that. Like, do you need a bunch of fancy collateral? Right. Websites and this and that.

Nathan Tanner: I am on LinkedIn, obviously. I created a landing page. It's Nathan Tanner.net. you know, it's just my name. I think that is. I think it's good to have a landing page. Like, my writing's on there, but, like, it's not fancy. I mean, I might have invested $1,000, 1,500 into it like, you could spend 10, 15K, way more than that, and create a beautiful, beautiful website. Um, and I just don't think it's necessary. You get to larger companies and it often is very different. And you're working with an HR leader and they're like, we only hire coaches at this rate. Um, then I think a website might be a little more valuable. I have a three pager that I've put together that has my bio, my perspective on coaching, a few endorsements from clients, and I'll send that out to people. You should set a certain number of hours of, like, this is how much I'm investing in collateral and no more. You should be talking to people or coaching people or interacting with people. Like, that's where it's going to come from. The number of people who have just randomly reached out from my website. I might have gotten one client of all of the people that I've worked with.

Narrator: Yeah. Networking and word of mouth, just that's it.

Host: Yeah. Nathan, this has been incredibly helpful. Um, I really appreciate your transparency. I know it can be taboo to talk about these topics, but as, um, you know, my manager from Doordash, Andrew Munday, he told me how much money he made in the ipo and I'll never forget it. He said, I'm not telling you to brag. I'm telling you so you can learn what to do when you make this much money. And I think the same is true in this situation for all, um, coaches either out there right now or people that are thinking about coaching or even clients. Uh, this is super helpful information for people. Um, one last thing I just want to compliment you on as a friend. You and I have been having these discussions for probably like four or five years. And I remember going back to when, you know, you were really thinking about it and it was a tough time in the economy. And I remember giving you advice. I was like, dude, I don't know.

Nathan Tanner: You told me not to do it.

Narrator: Yeah, exactly.

Host: I was like, I don't know. Right now. Um, like, it's really bad out there. And what I love about what you did is that you burned the boats and you went all the way in. And I think if more people do that in life. When you. When you forge into the unknown and you don't know what's going to happen, you become more resilient.

Nathan Tanner: Yeah.

Host: Uh, and in your case, you have seen success, and obviously it is because you've burned the boats. But even if you don't see success burning the boats, I think teaches you a lot about yourself. And so it's been really fun as your friend to watch your journey.

Nathan Tanner: I appreciate that. Uh, I appreciate that. Yeah, I've tried to play the long game and I think this is, this is a space, probably any space, but especially this one. You have to play the long game. You can't be needy. Like, the client needs to need the coach more than the coach needs the client. That's the only way it's going to work. Um, but anyway, I really appreciate that.

Narrator: Well said. Well said. Thank you, Nathan. This is awesome.

Host: Appreciate the time, man.

Nathan Tanner: Okay. All right, so have a good one.

Host: HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine, the network behind Econ 102, Moment of Zen and Turpentine VC. Subscribe five stars. Share it on Apple, YouTube, Spotify, anywhere you get your podcasts. All the things.