Stephen Stewart, Chief Operating Officer, Levira

Speaker A: Hello, I'm Kerry Wootton, the host of the Media Careers podcast. This is a place where you can hear from people working across the film, TV and broadcast sectors and, and the stories of how they got into the industry. Please do press the subscribe button so you can always hear when a new episode is released. A, uh, huge thanks as always to our partners. Interfilm, supported by the BFI awarding National Lottery funding. If there, uh, ever was a space for a legend slot on this podcast, then this is it. The brilliant Stephen Stewart has mentored and supported so many people across the sector, uh, and worked across all of the main channels that I don't think there is anything he doesn't know about broadcast or anyone that he doesn't know in this sector. But when you hear his story, it's no surprise that he takes such care supporting others and why he is brilliant at his job. I learn about all of the changes in playout systems, why radio was an important stepping stone for him and how so many sliding doors moments could have taken his career in such a different direction. Stephen is simply brilliant and I absolutely love talking to him on this podcast. Stephen, welcome to the Media Careers podcast.

Speaker B: Hi Carrie, thanks for having me on.

Speaker A: Hello. Now, we know each other quite well. We've known each other a really long time, but I know let's not count the years, but we. I don't think I know your story of how you got into the industry, why you got into the industry. I know you've had an amazing career, but I'm looking forward to hearing some of your backstory too today. So, uh, let's start at the beginning then. Tell us, what were you, what were you like as a child and a young person?

Speaker B: It's always difficult to describe because you, you think that's all you know. So you think I was quite normal really?

Speaker A: Um, yeah, that's true.

Speaker B: I sort of, uh, I was born in Edinburgh, which always comes as a surprise to people because I, you can tell by the strong Scottish accent that I have not. Um. But yeah, I was born in Edinburgh and moved around a bit because my dad worked for British Railways, as they were then. It's full circle now coming back. Um, so. But at about two and a half we moved down to Reading and ah, then another two and a half years later moved to Cardiff. So my first school experience is, was a big, a big primary school in Cardiff, like four stories high and about a thousand people. So.

Speaker A: Oh, wow, that is a big primary school.

Speaker B: That's what I expected primary schools to be. And then, uh, about three years after that, we moved sort of back into England, into Oxfordshire. And I went to the local village school which had 28 pupils in total.

Speaker A: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. That's gonna be more different.

Speaker B: Two classes and all the ages were mixed together. So you had a sort of buddying scheme where the, the older, um, kids looked after one of the younger kids sort of. And it wasn't, ah, it was so different to Cardiff. Um, there were no formal lessons, whereas at Cardiff we learned all about the money and the counties. And it was at a time in wa, all the county's names were changing.

Speaker A: Right, okay.

Speaker B: And the money was changing. Yeah, I'm that old. The money was changing. It was into decimalization. So I lost a bit of faith in teachers at that point because I went, uh, home one summer and had learned all about the Welsh counties and what money was, came back the following year after the summer holidays with a different teacher. And it has all changed. And they, they didn't make it clear that it actually changed. So in my little six, um, year old, seven year old brain, I thought the previous teacher had got it all wrong.

Speaker A: Oh, wow. A lot to deal with actually, isn't it? Just to understand the whole system's change and they're not that explained and. Yeah, that is a bit of a head. Yeah.

Speaker B: And to have to learn Welsh at the same time.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. That's huge.

Speaker B: So I ended up in, back in England, in Oxfordshire. And yes, that was a lovely little school. And we did sort of things like we cooked dinner once or cooked lunch once a week. We sort of groups of us took it in turns. So we ended up having to go and help cook the school lunch. So that's where I probably first got my interest in cooking.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: That was cooking for a reason rather than just, um, making scones and bread rolls. In home, uh, economics.

Speaker A: Yeah, you actually had to feed people, actually. They were relying on you to eat that to either.

Speaker B: So that, that was sort of school. And then I went to a comprehensive, um, up the road from there, which was again pretty standard, I think standard comprehensive is all I knew.

Speaker A: Um, were you academics even did like.

Speaker B: I don't know. I, I'm, I don't think so. I wasn't, I was in that halfway house. I was sort of artistic. I was really interested in photography.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, well, I was interested in bird watching and photography. And I think the photography came after the bird watching to try and take pictures of the birds seen around living in the countryside. But when I went to school I was also, my parents were also giving me things like chemistry sets and those, um, electronic sets with the little springs that you join the dots and you make a radio or whatever. So I was, I was interested in science. Um, and back then they split all the sciences into chemistry, biology, physics, electronics and it was just sort of the start of computers as well. So there was a, this magic room with one big whirring computer that everyone sort of had to sign in for 10 minutes and use it if they wanted to play with a computer.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, uh, I'm not sure if I was academic, but I was halfway between that and artistic. And photography is a good example of that and that goes through my sort of history. So photography is quite an artistic thing. But then when you come to develop the films and print the films, that's

Speaker A: quite a scientific science. Yeah, it's really true. Yeah. The real combination of both, isn't it?

Speaker B: The two matched and the, the really weird thing is that nowadays everyone. I know there's a big thing about kids taking mobile phones to school, but obviously back then, um, and we're talking late 70s at this point, there were no, no such things as mobile phones or there was no cctv, there was nothing like that. The most you had once a year was a, uh, school photographer come in with a big camera and you ended up with a six foot long photo of everyone in the school. Yeah, but because I was interested in photography and I was by this point 11 or 12, I would take my little 35 millimeter proper camera into school with me and I, I would take photos of all the classrooms and uh, everything like that. Nowadays you'd have to fill in 20 forms, safeguarding forms, and get parents permission and all that. But I was, I was one of the kids, so. And it turns out the school didn't have any, any records of all that. So even just a few years ago I, I digitized them all and gave them to the school and it, it looks like a proper archive. It makes me feel really old because it's all black and white.

Speaker A: Ah, that's so amazing that you still had all of that footage though, that you, all of those photos from that time that you'd kept it all.

Speaker B: Well, uh, my rule has always been never chuck anything photography wise. Never chuck anything away.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, because you, when you take a photo like those photos in the woodwork room at school, um, they're just photos of 10 mates making shavings, sort of stuff that could easily be chucked away.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But you never know if friend number Six suddenly becomes the Prime Minister.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Later in life.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or when I did photography of a, uh, newspaper, I'd always, I would always keep everything because you just never know when something's going to become of interest. And negatives are such a small thing to keep as well. And then digitizing them, they just sit, sit on a hard disk somewhere. So. Yeah.

Speaker A: Amazing. Your exams. Did that all kind of come fairly naturally to kind of passing exams and moving on? And did you have any idea of the media industry at that point as well? Were you kind of.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: What kind of career were you thinking about when you were at school?

Speaker B: That's a good question. I was, I think I initially wanted to be. I think when I was 10 or something, I wanted to be a vet.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Or something like that. Although my dad worked as a sort of manager in the railways. Uh, I never wanted to do all the traditional old school things like be an engine driver or police officer or fireman or whatever. Um, and I think because we went everywhere by train, because my dad worked, as I say, worked for British Rail. So you got free first class train travel anywhere in Europe.

Speaker A: Oh my God, Amazing holidays.

Speaker B: I felt deprived because all my mates were getting on planes and flying off to Spain and going to some of these exotic places. Uh, we always went on a train to Italy and Germany, which at the time I thought, oh, this is the poor man's way of going on holiday. Of course, that's gone full circle now. Train is the way to do it. So exams wise and career wise, I hadn't, uh, you sort of had to do. I think I remember you sort of were forced to do eight subjects and it was like all the standard things like maths, English, uh, history, re chemistry, geography, physics and something else I can't remember. You didn't really get too much of a choice until later on. Then you could choose whether to do languages or not. And the way the choices worked, it was somewhat bizarre. I, uh, can't quite remember. It was either you did French or pe and so obviously I chose French as, uh, the least bad option. Um, um. But yeah, so some of the exams I found reasonably straightforward. And I think looking back on it, it's what everyone says now, if you're doing something you enjoy, it's much easier. So some of the exams, I thought, I thought some of them were trick questions. I thought surely that two plus two, surely it must be four, can't be that easy. Um, whereas French, languages, um, and things like that I found just challenging.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And I found some Old report cards the other day and one, one teacher had said that um, my inquisitive nature was what was going to define uh, me in the future or something like that. That was one of the science teachers. And then the French teacher said, I wish he wasn't so inquisitive, asking always why? Because in French or any of the language, that's why I'm not very good at languages. It's, they'll tell you that this, this, this and this is the way it is. And I, at that point I'd say, well, why is a table mal, uh a glass feminine? What's it got to do with gender? All that sort of, I just didn't understand.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I asked the why question. No one could ever answer it. So it was always a little bit strange.

Speaker A: Yeah, amazing. So what did you, what did you, what were your first steps when you left school then? What were you kind of looking to uh, move into?

Speaker B: Well, funny, one of the careers is again it was back in the day when there was a careers officer whose full time job was a careers officer. Whereas these days I think a lot of schools, it's sort of a bit of a side hustle for the teachers unfortunately. Um, ah, one thing one of the teachers said by then, I think because I'd done lots of school play, lighting and sound, um, I knew that I was interested in the behind the scenes of stuff because I didn't want to be on stage. So the only way of getting out of that was doing the sound or the lighting. And um, I think I said to the careers officer maybe I get a job in uh, TV or something, sound and lighting. And I remember now he said oh, but your parents don't work in the media, do they? I said no, not at all. And it was almost, well that's going to be a problem.

Speaker A: Oh, that's so interesting, isn't it?

Speaker B: And then I went to sixth form college after comprehensive school and the careers officer there was slightly more positive or more helpful but still the same uh, angle. Because when you said about, I said about going into the media, he was, oh, that's interesting. We do have a couple of BBC parents who might be able to help. So because I, I had no link to the media at all, I had no family friends, I wasn't um, whatever.

Speaker A: And I think it was very much about who you knew at that point as well. Like it has, it has, luckily it has changed now. You, there are lots of different reason, but it definitely was at that point, wasn't it? Just, just very Much based on who you knew.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, it really was. Um, and my way in, to go back to your question, my way into the media was sort of unplanned because I'd been interested in photography, as I said before, and the chemistry teacher in the comprehensive school knew that and so did the physics teacher, because I made things like pinhole cameras to demonstrate some of the principles. So I was quite practical in that sense. So the chemistry teacher said, well, we don't do O level photography here, but there is an O level photography exam that you can take and as long as your parents pay for the entry fee, which was like £10, I'm happy to promote you and help you do the thing.

Speaker A: Amazing.

Speaker B: So I did photography O level, which was unheard of. Um, and then, long story short, I applied for a job at the local newspaper after I'd finished sixth form as a photographer and got the job.

Speaker A: Well, as a photographer.

Speaker B: As a photographer, as a press photographer. Um, and at the same time I'd been offered a place at, uh, what was then called the London College of Printing in the Elephant and Castle, which I think is now part of.

Speaker A: It's mc. Uh, you.

Speaker B: Ah, maybe. Anyway, yeah, it's still sort of there.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're right. OCC is part of ua. Anyway. Yes, go on, Perry.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I got offered a place there at the same time. Um, but that's one of those sliding doors moments, I thought, because having never earned money and then thought of having three years of not earning money and having to travel to London. Um, so I took the job at the newspaper because what they had said is they would pay me, obviously, and they would also train me, um, ironically, uh, send me back to Cardiff to do a NCTJ journalism course. So I thought, oh, that's pretty. I get paid and I get trained. Um, anyway, long story short, I got quite quickly bored with it because I, I became on first name terms with the head of every WI in all the local villages and there were only so many different ways. You could take a picture of a pot of jam or a gardener with an onion as big as head or all these local.

Speaker A: Because it was a local newspaper.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was a local newspaper. So I literally, um, I was starting to get bored with it. But one of the things I had to do at the local newspaper is because there was a radio station in Reading that was quite close to London, quite close to Heathrow. So quite a lot of the time when sort of celebrity pop stars would come to the UK to promote whatever, um, they Would go to all the big stations in London, like Capital and the others. Um, but they would often come to the radio station in Reading. So I'd be dispatched to the radio station to take a picture of whoever it was, um, in Reading, because whoever knew that you'd get Kate Bush in Reading or Bruce Springsteen or any of these people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so I got to know the radio station people quite well. Um, and that was my sort of bolt hole on a Saturday if I was on shift taking photographs around Reading. And it felt a whole lot more fun there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, bumped into the chief engineer one day and was talking about it and he said, why don't you come and work here? I'll give you a job as a tech op. Um, because I talked about, um, having done sound and lighting at school. And he said, oh, if you can do. If you can do theater sound. I remember him saying, if you do theater sound, that's chaotic here. It's dead easy. We've wired it all up properly. Just have to push some faders up. Um, so I left the photography job and joined the radio station as a technical operator. And it was a local radio station and 50 years old, uh, in a month or two. And because everyone does everything in those radio stations. So I ended up obviously doing technical operations or studio managing, as they. They call it, the BBC. Which, um, meant driving the desk for news bulletins. So that was fun. So some good times. And, uh, when it's horrible news, it makes it more interesting. So I was on shift the day the Brighton bomb happened. Conservative conference way back when. And it was all the news just coming in and there was no computers. Everything was manual, Everything was tape splicing and razor blades and sticky tape and all of that.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And then ended up making quite a

Speaker A: lot of pressure, isn't it, like just, I think when you are cut, when you are cutting that way rather than digitally, you are doing the tapes and using the razor blades and just making sure. Particularly when it is a massive news story as well, when it is the pressure and the adrenaline to keep your hands like, still when you're using the razor blades.

Speaker B: Yeah. But it's funny, whenever I, um, sometimes still people say, how do you do editing on quarter inch tape? Or whatever. The principles, bizarrely are exactly the same. And in a way, doing it on tape was easier because if you cut out like a. You'd always cut out a breath before somebody starts speaking. Um, you just have that bit of tape. Um, I'm waving my hands around, but you can't See me, Can you. You have that sort of foot long bit of tape, but you can just put it to one side.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know what it is?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, and I find if I'm editing on a computer and you've, you've cut a bit out, you can control Z. Um, but I know there are ways of doing it, but it's not, it doesn't seem so easy, but. And then I ended up my last job at the radio station because I realized the only part of the radio station where you could spend money to make content was commercial production.

Speaker A: Right. Okay.

Speaker B: So that's where I got first introduced to working with clients. And I had a bit of a, almost a competition with the program controller because obviously the program controller is the big boss of the radio station, but making the commercials, uh, it was only when the managing director once said in a big staff meeting to the program controller, he was sort of getting out of his, his box a little bit too much. He said, yeah, but remember Stephen's team, they make quarter of all the output anyway because there's 12 minutes of commercials in every hour. So, uh, which got me thinking. So I ended up loving doing this.

Speaker A: Right, yeah, it's true. Still the same now.

Speaker B: Yeah. And we had to, as a radio station, had to spend so much money with the musicians union on recording music, which the program controller couldn't quite spend enough. And we also could only do 12 minutes of advertising. But we were so near London, quite a lot of the advertisers wanted to spend more money than we had airtime.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So I ended up with the sales director working out that if I get somebody to pay £5,000 to record a jingle, um, then that's £5,000. That doesn't eat up the air time, but it also makes them more likely to come back and spend more money next month because they've invested £5,000 in a fancy jingle.

Speaker A: Right, okay.

Speaker B: That's where I started getting into strategy. Yeah. Um, and then bizarrely, um, I got into TV almost directly from that. Um, and back in the day, there were. When you were applying for jobs, there were two general ways you would find what jobs were being advertised. There was a magazine that was a physical magazine called Broadcast, which is still around online.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then there was the Guardian. The media Guardian.

Speaker A: Yeah, I need to have that back. I know, I remember doing that as well. Just circling, uh, job adverts and trying to find the jobs of the day.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was.

Speaker A: Which it still exists as well, digitally, doesn't it, the Guardian jobs?

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so we used to get them m delivered newspapers delivered in through our front door. And then Friday morning was just looking through for jobs. And in broadcast there was one, uh, for Channel four, which was relatively new and it was, it started in 82 and I think I was looking in 87. So it wasn't brand new, but it was relatively new. Um, and there was a job advertised there that said something like, it was presentation Editor. Um, can you write scripts, can you work with voiceovers? Can you operate technical equipment, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker A: Oh, all the things that you'd got from the radio. Yeah, it looked perfect.

Speaker B: And it was called Presentation Editor. So that's one thing I do, I do lots of editing. Um, so I, I wrote it back in the day when you, you wrote a physical letter, you put it in a physical envelope and stuck it in a physical post box and hoped for the best. Um, didn't hear any more for probably a couple of months and was moaning to one of my friends at the radio station and she said, why do you just ring them and get annoyed with them? Ring them and ask them what's going on? So I ended up ringing them and I was expecting to be sort of annoyed of reading, but I rang and said who I was, got through to HR and they said, oh, thank goodness you've rung. We put you on the list for interview, but we lost all your paperwork. So I didn't know my phone number on my address, so they said, can you come in for an interview?

Speaker A: Whoa, that's crazy, Stephen. Ah, that's crazy. It was.

Speaker B: If I hadn't, if I hadn't had that conversation with my friend. Yeah, he hadn't been a bit grumpy on my behalf and I hadn't rung up. Who know again, another sliding doors.

Speaker A: Yeah, another sliding doors.

Speaker B: Um, anyway, went for an interview And I was 20, 21 at this stage, I think something like that. 22 maybe. And it became quite apparent quite quickly that this presentation editor job wasn't the one for me because it was second in command to the whole of the output of the television station.

Speaker A: Ah, okay.

Speaker B: So a spotty 22 year old, it's probably not right. And because it was. There are two types. There still are the two types of editor in the industry. There's editors who cut pictures and sound together, videotape, um, or picture editors physically doing that. And then the other type of editor is more like a, a news editor or executive producer where they're deciding the running order of the news or deciding what goes on air. And They've got a whole team doing it. So those two terms, because I wasn't really in media, didn't understand the difference. However, we all decided within about 10 minutes of this interview that it probably wasn't the job for me.

Speaker A: Right. Okay.

Speaker B: So at that point I, I obviously relaxed because I thought I don't have to try hard now because it's not my job. So we carried on chatting and the end result was they said this job isn't for you but maybe you want to become a network director. And I was like oh wow, yeah, what's that? And they said well it's sort of operating the equipment, doing the faders up and down, uh, making the promos, uh, working with the voice, all the sort of what you'd call these days transmission controllers, TCs play out directors. That was the word. But they called it network director. So as a 22 year old, the term network director, I was gonna say

Speaker A: that sounds fancy, right? Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think I said yes straight away. And again it was like I said yes and they said well the salary's this. And I said that sounds fine. And they said when can you start? I mean that would never happen. I don't think these days there'd be like 17 layers of interviews. Um, so that's how I got to Channel four.

Speaker A: Amazing. I love that. And it's always funny isn't it? The dots that then happen to get you to where you are and the conversations that lead to. Yeah, um, amazing. And how long were you at Channel 4 for? Because as you said that it was a new station back in the day when actually we only had four stations. Uh, there must have been an air of kind of innovation happening in, in the organization still kind of fighting for its place and viewers, viewers minds in terms of schedule and what it's going to stand for.

Speaker B: Again it's always when you look back on these things you can see ah, uh, I see what was happening but at the time when you're in it. And again I'd never worked in TV before. I'd uh, come from this little radius. It was almost like the two schools. It was almost like going from a tiny little primary school into a big school. So going from a radio station of maybe 30 people into 6 or 700 at the time. Um, so I didn't know any different but it was, it was fun. And looking back on it, it was really diverse for the time. Um, which again I didn't think anything different at the time. So I didn't know any different. But I would say 50% of the engineering team were male, 50% female, more or less. And I say engineering that includes sort of videotape operating but also heavy maintenance, like jobs that were traditionally, as I now know, traditionally male focused jobs. So, but that was just normal or about. It was gender equality. There was a range of different ethnic backgrounds. Um, but that was just normal. It's just what I expected. Um, but the one thing that was really interesting, um, was that as a network director you got to do a bit of everything these days, uh, in those sort of roles. The jobs are all very demarcated. So if you're a scheduler, you do scheduling. If you're a program executive, um, producer, you make the programs. Uh, if you're an editor, you make promos. If you're a playout director, you do the live stuff. But we, or Channel four ran a, like a four week cycle. So there were four, four teams. So the first time, week one, you got to see the schedules and you watched all the programs. Compliance was another thing you ended up doing. You watched all the programs, you decided where the commercial breaks were going to go. Uh, you made sure the clock hours for the commercials were correct. Um, you decided again, promo makers and um, audience people these days hate this thought. But you decided which programs you were going to make promos for. So you could. If I came back from holiday and hadn't been at work within about half an hour of putting Channel 4 on and watching it at home, I could tell which team was on. Because if all the gardening and history programs were being promoted heavily, then I knew it was Team two. If it was Bruce Willis movies and the sort of, um, stuff, then it was Team three because everyone had their own interest.

Speaker A: Yeah. Their own slide right there. That's really interesting.

Speaker B: Hideous when you think about it, because you're in this echo chamber making promos because you like the program rather than thinking about it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Rather than actually unorthodox thinking about the strategy of the channel and what you're trying to create overall and where your focus is. Yeah. Extraordinary.

Speaker B: It was funny. And you, you worked with the announcers, so you had to make sure the announcers weren't saying anything that they shouldn't say. Um, so it was a real grounding in everything from how to make a promo through to compliance through almost managing live programs, how to live program pas. And directors on the talkback, they would always think that their program was the most important. Um, and, oh, there's a really interesting news story coming up in an extra five minutes and it's like, well, sorry, you can't have an extra five minutes because the Super Bowl's starting and we can't delay the Super Bowl. Um, so you had that sort of negotiation skills to come to as well.

Speaker A: It sounds like the learning curve was quite steep, just like, in terms of, as you said, like, going from that radio station to this. But also all of those different elements that you've just mentioned. Just. And, um, I suppose what strikes me about that is just the amount of people that you're dealing with as well. And all you. Like the negotiations that you're having to deal with and which promos are going to get made and not get made and just like the. Yeah. The intricacies and the nuances of dealing with people and managing people and coordinating people, and that's full on. Right. Just let, like being able to manage all of that.

Speaker B: Well, yeah. And you're sort of managing it from a. Not, uh, from a position of authority in terms of hierarchy, because although the title was network director and when you were on shift you were sort of in charge, but then there were still lots of other people around you who were hierarchically far higher up the chain. Um, but the good thing at the time was the CEO always had our back as network directors because his view at the time was, you're the person in the seat. As long as you make a decision, I don't care if it's wrong. If you make the decision for the right reason at the right time, I'll always have your back. Um, because sometimes you don't know, no, something's going on. And I mean, the typical one, isn't it? You're on the live news and the screen goes black. So you leave it for five seconds thinking, oh, the ITN gallery are going to sort it out. They don't. Then another five seconds goes by, so you think something else has gone on. Then. Um, it's always just bad luck that after 11 seconds you cut to a slide and get the announcer to start talking at the very second comes back and then you're sort of committed to it. And then the news say, why did you take us off the air? So you never quite know. Uh, but it's. Yeah, that's quite the fun of it. Yeah. Um, and yeah, so it was. It was a steep learning curve, but they were. There were lots of good people there already. A lot of them had come from radio, strangely, and one of my mentors, they were into. They didn't really call it mentoring then, but they buddied you up Up. Um, so I had somebody who, if ever I wasn't very sure about something, I could always talk things through in advance about like three live programs back to back. Well, what would you do if this happens? What would you do if that happens? So you always war game it. So you sort of have um, uh, Plan abc. So you always hope that plan A works but you make sure you have plan B and plan C ready to go so that it's not a big surprise.

Speaker A: Yeah, amazing. And that importance of mentoring will come back. I'm sure. We'll talk about that in a little bit but. So how long did you stay at Channel 4 for?

Speaker B: I was there for eight years but there was a gap in the middle which was quite amusing, which. I'll talk about that. So I joined in 88 and history will show I left in 96 but I actually uh, left in 93 or 94, I can't remember. I left half some way through because one of the bosses from Channel 4 had left to go and set up this new arrival to uh, Sky. Sky at the time was quite a small channel. Um, so he'd gone to set up this new channel called uh, bsb. Um, which is the one where they had all the square eels and they built this fantastic new headquarters in Battersea etc. And he was recruiting like mad so he was just taking people and they were paying a lot more than Channel 4 were paying and it was a proper startup. So anyway, long story short, um, a bunch of us decided to go and ah, work for bsb and just so happened that my, by the time I'd made my mind up and I was on three months notice at Channel 4, I'd um, yeah, I'd served my notice and there was a. I was having my leaving due actually on the Friday night before the Monday when I was starting at bsb and my boss at the time did all the normal boss like things of saying thanks very much, you were great, if you ever want a job, you know where I am, blah blah blah. And then uh, just in the middle of that um, I got a call from one of the other people who'd gone and she was like, oh, have you heard what's happened? And it was um, sky had then just bought bsb. So on the Monday a bunch of us who were starting all turned up and uh, everyone was handed redundancy notices or they were put at risk as we now know it.

Speaker A: Oh my God.

Speaker B: This was my 3 months notice. Left joined BSB on the Monday and then um, we had this redundancy round. So obviously I rang my boss back and said, you know, on Friday, you ever needed a job. So, long story short, I spent two weeks at bsb. Um, and that was. I always remember that was when Margaret Thatcher resigned. So I was actually sitting in front of the desk, not having any experience of this new automation. It was all automated then. I didn't know what on earth I was doing. Um, and then newsroom rang. I said, oh, Margaret Thatcher's resigned. We need to put the news on air. So it was like a bit of a scramble for me to work out how to do that. But then I went back to channel four, um, and then stayed there till 96, um, when I got the. The bug to do some live programming. So I ended up. Because when I was at Channel four, you were allowed to do other things when you weren't on shift, as long as it wasn't competitive.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So some of the other things I did were parliamentary, um, broadcasting, like the House of Lords, Commons, Lords and Committees. As it was just down the road from. By this point, Channel 4 was in Westminster. And bizarrely, the same company that provided the staff for the parliamentary operations also provided staff for Formula one, which was about as different as you could get.

Speaker A: I was gonna say, what an extraordinary difference.

Speaker B: The House of Lords, you could come back 10 minutes later and, uh, the Lord, whoever was talking would still be talking. Um, so it'd be one camera every ten minutes. Formula, um, one. It'd be like ten caverns every 30 seconds.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So I did a bit of Formula one, two years of that as a director. And then, um, Channel 5 rang and said, we're launching a new channel. Do you want to come and, uh, be the launch director for it? So I went and was one of the team that started up the play outside of Channel 5.

Speaker A: Incredible. And that job came about because you'd built your network, I suppose, as well, and you would. I think this is the thing you, as you're telling your story, there's so many. You're connected to so many different people. Right. So that's when they. They do you. You do have people ring you up and go, actually, you'd be great for this job. So that. And that's been a key part of your. Your roles, I suppose, throughout your career, hasn't it, kind of building your network.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it is. And it's, uh, it's always about, try not to annoy people. Um, and I'm sure with the parliamentary stuff and other stuff I did, um, everyone would joke because I would always bring donuts in, um, for the crew. Um, and I would always think that's a good investment because I'm never going to be the best director as a freelancer going into Parliament. I'm not going to innately know where the, the MP for Solihull sits.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Whereas the full time directors, they just know they could close their eyes and put the right camera on. So I knew I was never going to be the, the best director in the world. But, uh, it was a great team and by taking donuts then I would

Speaker A: make it a happy team. Right.

Speaker B: Makes it a happy team. And it means that when somebody has a choice of bringing someone in as a freelancer who might be brilliant but grumpy, or not so brilliant but brings donuts and a bit of a laugh, um, yeah, they get you.

Speaker A: No, it doesn't. It sounds them, you. We want to create a good environment, right. Working good, happy, team centered environment is really important.

Speaker B: So you've got six people sitting in a broom cupboard doing telly. You sort of have to get on and you, you have to have a bit of a laugh or a bit of levity or something going on while being professional. So. So, yeah.

Speaker A: So tell us about the launch of Channel 5. How was that? Was it mad?

Speaker B: Well, it was, it was mad and it wasn't mad. It was one of those ones where we, uh, were again, this is a weird story. I'd met my wife at Channel 4, so we were both working at Channel 4. So we'd thought actually now and again, all this privatization of Channel 4 gets into the news. So we thought maybe it'd be good if we didn't both work for the same company. Just a bit of security of, um, finances. So we're both starting to gently apply for jobs. So Tracy had applied for a job at a company called Pearson Television, uh, which then ultimately became LPC and then became Ascent Media. So she'd applied for a job in the engineering team there at, uh, the same time as I got, um, approached by Channel 5. So we thought, oh, that's good, two separate things. Um, anyway, it turns out that by the time I was employed, Channel 5 had decided they were going to outsource their play out, um, and they outsourced their play out to Pearson Television. Um, and then Tracy got the job as one of the commercials engineers at Pearson Television. So not only were we working for the same company, we were working two doors along the same corridor. Um, but the, the Channel 5 launch, there was less pressure than you'd imagine for A playout provider, because we were ready to go, I think in November, December 96, something like that. But because the Channel 5 channel was new, there was a time where Channel 5 had to send people into almost every house in the UK and get people's TV sets and, um, video recorders retuned to receive it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And their license said, you can't go live until you've done that job. So.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: We were running, we were running Channel 5 for three months before we went live. Not going anywhere.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: So by the time we came to do the actual live go live, it was fine. It was, it was just more of the same. It was like there was a bit more, um, the programming had changed and by that point the Spice Girls had got involved and they were doing the launch. Um, but again, going back to my press photography days, I remember that obviously you can imagine Channel 5 goes live, all the press in the playout suite watching the channel go live. And because I'm sure it's no secret now, um, you don't want anything to go wrong. So we'd actually put the channel live about an hour beforehand, uh, from a tape in the next door playout suite just so that we had it running. So if anything went wrong, it was already there. Um, so the only thing that was wrong with that tape was that the creative people at Channel 5 hadn't quite decided how see through the Channel 5 logo on screen was going to be. So they only decided that last minute. So that wasn't on the tape. So when the press photographer said to me, oh, can you tell me what button you're going to press at 6 o' clock on Easter Sunday? This was, what button are you going to press to put Channel 5 on the air? I was thinking, well, I'm not going to press any button really, because it's already on the air an hour ago. But I didn't want to say that, that. Yeah, it's only when one of the engineers or the sort of assistant transmission controllers said, oh, well, the button you're going to Press at exactly 6:00, clock is that one. And it's. It was. And it was a, uh, it was a caption generation button. It was a thing called Logo gen. It was the button that was going to put the Channel 5 logo in the top left hand corner of the screen.

Speaker A: Amazing.

Speaker B: So that made the press happy. So.

Speaker A: And it wasn't. It was true. There was a book made Channel 5 go on the screen.

Speaker B: So it was, yeah, but it made. Made everyone laug laughing at me. Later because I think it went on the front page of the Times. My, my finger close up pressing that button with the text logo gen next to it and it, the headline was something like the button that, the button that shows the future of the UK broadcasting or something. So anyone who knew anything, they all got laughing out loud.

Speaker A: Then it was your finger uh, pressing a button for a logo.

Speaker B: Yeah, Channel five was, was good. It was um, it was one of the first multi play out centers because back in, before then generally all the broadcasters had done their own thing.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Mainly um, but then we'd built Stephen street and Channel 5 were there and we had Disney, Discovery, NBC Universal, Bollywood, all the UK um flex tech channels. So there were at one point there were 120 channels coming out of that building.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: So I was able to move around a little bit. So that's sort of when I got into management.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Uh, TV management.

Speaker A: That's extraordinary that then you're all in one place doing all of that together. That's incredible. So you, so you move from Channel 5 to some of those others, did you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I moved from a transmission controller in Channel five, uh, actually down to launch a channel called the Travel Channel. TV Travel shops which are like QVC for telly, um, or QVC for holidays, um, which was live. It was crazy. It was like nine till five every day live.

Speaker A: Oh wow.

Speaker B: Um, in a. Live two live studios, um, with live presenters all the time using playout automation equipment rather than gallery equipment. So that was crazy but good fun. Um, and then that was one of the suite of channels on the, on the first floor. And then my boss at the time, uh, David Klafkoski, um, who was my Boss in Channel 5 as well. One of the best bosses I've ever had.

Speaker A: Um, shout out to him.

Speaker B: Yeah, shout out to him. Um, and he was leaving Stephen, um, Street and because I shared an office with him and a couple of others and he had this grand idea at the time that post production needed to be revolutionized, um, which he went, went on to do and he was going to propose it to the company that we were working for and I could, I saw on his screen lots of um, numbers and designs for edit suites that by that point were sort of my, my area. And I was saying, oh, something you want to tell me? So he was talking about building a, an enormous modern post production um, setup within the building. Um, but long story short the, the bosses of the bill of the company decided that that wasn't the right idea. So he said well I'll go and do it somewhere else then. And went and set up the farm.

Speaker A: Yes, um, he did.

Speaker B: So uh, I then took over from him running all those channels. Um, and uh, yeah, so that ended up with five or six TV channels, three audio suites, 12 edit suites and a bunch of clients on site right there with us and a library. Um, so yeah, so then I moved Back to Channel 5. As the manager of Channel 5, did you see.

Speaker A: Did you ever like have a plan of where your career might go? Or were you. Or have you always just kind of followed your nose where the opportunities are? Uh, have you ever kind of gone right, okay, I want to be over here, I want to do that. That's where I'm aiming for.

Speaker B: No, no, actually no, I just uh. You sort of. No, there was never a grand plan. Obviously I wanted to be a vet or something or a photographer. So that didn't, didn't happen.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then it's always, I always think I say to some of the, when I'm talking to people these days, I uh, will say always say yes if, if it's relevant and it's. Give it a go. It's like when I, somebody asked me to do the House of Lords stuff, I'd never done. I'd watched live telly, I'd never done produced it. I thought how hard can it be? It's only a few cameras. And then mainly. So why don't you come do Formula One? It's like I've never even watched Formula One. Um, so no, there was never a grand plan. No, um, uh, no. And normal. Most of the jobs latterly that I've got have been uh, by network sort of like networking and going to trade shows and having interviews at trade shows and things like that. So I don't, I always think everyone talks about imposter syndrome, but I, I don't have any qualifications. I don't have um, an A level in managing media clients or business. No level in video editing or. I have no qualifications um, that are relevant to anything I've done ever really.

Speaker A: It's really interesting isn't it? Just how you then built. But you, you've got such experience and depth of knowledge about the industry that you've built up, up over time. But you also spent some time at the BBC, right?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So how did you then navigate into the BBC?

Speaker B: Um, well that was. I kind of how that happened. I got a phone call from somebody at the BBC saying because. But I'd done the move of Channel 5, Channel 4 from Charlotte street to Horse Free Road. Then I'd done the launch of Channel 5. And then the Formula One thing was sort of a launch of digital. Um, so somehow I'd sort of been involved in quite a few launches. TV Travel Shop was another one. Yeah, um, then the BBC, the bit of the BBC that I got called by was called BBC Broadcast. So it was, um, it was still part of the BBC but it was part of their commercial, um, area. Uh, and they had decided at that point they wanted to modernize how they were doing the playout. Um, and rather than just doing play out for BBC channels, they'd seen the success of what um, Pearson Television, LPC Ascent had done at uh, Stephen street and thought we could do something similar. We could give the UK broadcast market, um, BBC qualities of service while we can make some money to subsidize the license fee in the same way that BBC Studios does to that. Um, so at that point they were decided they were going to build a big new broadcast center up the road from Television center in Wood Lane. And they wanted to bring someone in with some commercial experience. So somebody who understood playout, but somebody who'd worked for some of the commercial clients. Although BBC at the time they were running some of their, they had commercial channels, they had bb, the World Service Channel and they, I think they had UK Gold and some other ones. But, um, anyway, the job was to move to the broadcast center. Um, so after a bunch of interviews, the last one of which was at ibc, strangely in a hotel in IBC sounds very strange, but that's how it worked. Um, I got the job at BBC Broadcast. Um, and that, that was like you're talking about going to big school. That was like talking going to proper big school. And it was a moment, amusing moment because when I'd first got the job, it hadn't been announced and they were quite sensitive about how they were going to announce it. But I wanted to see the broadcast center which was basically just an empty building. It had just finished doing this concrete work, but there were no rooms in it. Um, so I got shown around by somebody who uh, I thought was an architect or maybe one of the project managers because, uh, he was talking about hard hats and hobnail boots and concrete pillars being nine meters apart. He seemed to know everything about everything. Um, so that was interesting. And he thought I was a journalist. Um, so anyway, fast forward three months when I start, I walk in, meet my team, and one of my team is this architect who showed me around. He was the person who was actually in charge at the time of uh, running the allocations team, the staff resourcing team. So um, that was Andy Steele. So uh, he, he was one of the good members of my team. But then when I joined and you sort of realized that as head of operations for the BBC Television Service you have all these channels um, and you owned the announcers, you employed the announcers. The announcers worked for BBC Broadcast. Um, and ah, Christmas Day it was quite scary. I once did a. Of all the channels we had when we had, we ended up getting a lot more channels in. At one point I think we had 95% audience share, took all the audience shares of the channels we had. So at ah, any point, uh, I used to do Christmas Day because we had the Queen speech as was, um, and all the big movies plus we had had by then Channel four and channel five so the numbers stacked up. It was quite, felt quite a responsibility.

Speaker A: Yeah, that is a responsibility.

Speaker B: You didn't want to think too much about it and you also didn't. I very quickly. I'd been subject to micromanagement in the past and because I knew what play out directing was, my natural instinct would be to get involved in the detail of, of how the channel playout worked. But I very quickly realized there's no point having this team of 50 people doing playout and then getting involved in telling them what to do because they're all great at what they do, need

Speaker A: to step back and let them do their job. Uh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Which is the most, uh, I said this to somebody just a couple of days ago who started a new job, her first job in management. Uh, and I said to her, your biggest challenge is going to be not getting your hands on because you've been used to doing everything and when you're sitting back just watching everyone else do it, you're going to feel lazy and you're going to be thinking that people are thinking what do they do all day? They sit in their office. And so it's a real adjustment. So um, that was quite an extreme example to do that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And of course the BBC has all other um, other responsibilities for continuity of broadcasting around the country. Um, so there were other things I ended up getting involved in. So it was all, all, it's all a bit scary.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Little old Spotty Stephen, 22 year old who got a job in telly by accident.

Speaker A: Well, and what an extraordinary career you had across all of those different channels. And I suppose all the technology that's evolved within that, as you said, things got then automated and Then yeah, being responsible for their 95, the share of the, the viewers will cross all of those channels. Extraordinary. And then you just. Stephen, I'd like to um, I'm gonna, I'm talk about what you're doing today but um, with Loveira, but I'd also just like to talk to you about mentoring. You were saying that you just were supporting someone and talking to them about their first management role. You have, and this is how we met. You have been an extraordinary mentor for so many people in the industry both through rise and the work that I do. You just, you are one of those natural born leaders who support and encourage and champion everybody in the sector and have made such a difference and an impact on people and, and I don't think it's recognized enough for the work that you do. But I'm thankful for everything that you do for me and for the company and for everybody in our network. But what has led you to kind of being such a mentor and what made you want to get involved in supporting people's careers in that way?

Speaker B: That's a good question. Um, and it could go all the way back to primary school when um, I ended up in that tiny 28 year old's 28 people school where you ended up with a, ah, as a nine year old, you ended up having a five year old sort of mentor which was a bit of a pain at the time but I think even, and I may be reinventing history, I don't know but I sort of have a feeling then that I remember feeling quite good when little Johnny couldn't make a uh, scone and then suddenly by just showing him how it worked, then he makes a scone and he goes home happy and tells his parents he's made a scone. So just seeing somebody go from that, that sort of incompetence in the true sense of the word to, to being able to do something, it probably goes back to that. Um, but I think it, I don't know. There was another moment when I was at Steven street, um, and it, it's, it's not so much mentoring, it's more of the sort of people not being treated correctly. We were trying to buy a studio and I was the least technical person in the room with most of the studio manufacturers and one of the uh, engineers I work, one of the best engineers I've ever worked with, she was asking questions about the various cameras and the camera controls and uh, Karen would ask a question and uh, one of the companies, the guy who was the salesperson would Answer me. So Karen would ask the question, he would answer me. I would shrug my shoulders. I don't know what BNC connector is. Uh, she's the boss. And it got. Got crazy that it just became so obvious. Then the other place, the other manufacturer we went to, um, if I asked a question, they asked, answered me in a appropriate way for my level of technical knowledge. If Karen asked a question, they'd go into the deep depths with her. Um, and it wasn't actually the best of the two systems, but we ended up buying that one purely because I. I'd said to Karen, said, when we're live, if you ring up and you need some help because something's broken, yeah, I'd rather you had to ring this company because they're going to treat you seriously. So that was one part of it. And then just when I've been training people, um, and you see how people, uh, and most of the people I've formally mentored have been, uh, women. Because of the rise scheme that you set up originally, um, and the way that the pairing worked, uh, I don't know how it worked because some of the. If you put it on paper, um, one of the people I mentored was a. An ob, sort of music OB person. And I've. I've done obs, but I've never set them up. I didn't know anything about that, but it sort of worked because I come at it from a position. Naivety, I suppose I can say, well, why did that screen work? Why did this work? Why did that? So I think, to answer to your question, I think I just like to see people make the best of themselves and, uh, especially if they're not very sure of themselves. And that's sort of been a, A trait with all my mentees. I think they would say it when they first get involved. And that's probably why they fill in the form. It's quite a brave first step. Fill in the form. To become a mentee, yeah, they have to recognize something about themselves. And then quite a lot of the time, uh, either mentees or when I've had members of staff, I'd find myself a lot of the time when somebody would come to me and say, oh, what do you think I should do here? And I'd say, well, what do you think you should do? And they'd say, whatever. And I said, well, that's what I would do. And then once they've done that three times, I'd end up saying to them, I said, look, you can always come and ask Me anything. But if you think you know the answer, uh, just go get on with it. And if you, if you don't know the, or if you think you know the answer but you're not sure, then come to me and say, I'm going to do this. What do you think? Rather than what should I do, just slightly change the emphasis of the question. And then by the fifth time, unless there's something brand new, people would just be quite self sufficient.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's that supportive that I would say it's like having somebody supporting your back, just like lifting you up slightly, just encouraging you, just knowing that you're there to catch them if they like have a little wobble or a little fall. It's just. And you, and you do it brilliantly and you've had some amazing. I love your relationship with all of your mentees. And uh, Emily, who's been on this podcast before as well, Emily Bergen, like she's, her trajectory has been amazing. You've supported her so brilliantly and you do that with all of your mentees and it is really wonderful, wonderful to see. So I love. And I think maybe you're right, maybe it is back to that primary school where you were working with the uh, with the younger children. But also. So even just through this conversation it's come up just how you kind of, how you work with everybody and support them and be encouraging and it's. Yeah, you're a unique kind, Stephen, that is for sure.

Speaker B: I'm sure there are plenty of people like me around, but I think you're

Speaker A: one of a kind. So thank you for all of all of your work in mentoring and supporting the industry because it does, it makes a huge difference and all of your mentees would say the same. So, um, let's just. I'd like to just move on to lvira as well. So you are in play out now, working with lvira. Tell us about, about your current role, Stephen, with them.

Speaker B: Yeah. So again it's, it's sort of full circle, isn't it? Um, so l. They're a playout provider. Um, so I've been through history of various playout things from very manual through to automation. And like when I was at Red B, which was the.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, we've missed Red B as well. I've missed Red B in your correct

Speaker B: BBC broadcast became Red B. So in Red B for instance, it was amazing. Sort of gold standard for playout. And there six, 600 racks in the building, uh, lots of servers whirring and that, that um, so had BBC, all the BBC channels, all the channels coming from there, sort of rock solid etc. Um, but then technology moves on and not Every channel is BBC1 and not every channel can predict what it's going to be doing in three or five years time. Because if, if you say to anyone these days, what are you going to be doing business wise in five years Years, you're likely to get a shrug of the shoulders. It's like having a laugh. I don't know what I'm doing next year, let alone five years.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so what technology, broadcast technology and others has done is it allows us to apply cloud methodologies into the broadcast world. So you don't have to build um, 600 racks of expensive equipment that then you have to, to pay off over 5, 5 years you can use cloud based stuff. So that's um, that's where Levira came into it. So Levira as a company, 70 years old, same age, they started within a few months of itv, um, back in the, the old Eastern Bloc in uh, ussr. Now they're obviously independent country, um, they're one of the innovation centers of Europe in Estonia. So that's where Levira is headquartered and they have the equivalent of the BT Tower. So they're that sort of size company and they've just launched Dab plus there. They've got an OB company, they've got satellites, they've got playout, you name it. And they do a lot of play out for channels, um, who want to get into markets across Europe. So one of the things that um, their investors said was this model works really well. Why don't we bring that model to the UK and the center of gravity of media in the UK is moving north as we know. Um, so that's why Leeds was chosen. So uh, they chose Leeds, ah, to be the center for Livira, uh, Media Services, which is the holy owns part of Livira. Um, and we found space in a data center. So there was a, it's an amazing building and there's a SMPTE conference coming up in March, uh, 11th of March that we're hosting there. So anyone wants to come and sort of see the building then talk to smpte. Um, so it's in an old chapel so they had to be very careful about how they put the, the cloud, their private cloud and their data center in. So it meant there was some space on the ground floor where they couldn't put racks. But it was a very secure area. So we've um, we've taken that space and we're right beside all the cloud based technology. Plus this particular data center, um, is extremely well connected in terms of um, IP connectivity. So we have all the best of both worlds. And it means that all the software we use is. Everything is done with software. We don't have any tape machines, we don't have any of our own servers. Um, so if, I don't know if say Media Talent Manifesto, say you decided you want to launch a channel channel, um, uh, for three months, um, and you just want to do it as a trial, uh, you'd come to us and say launch this channel for three months, uh, 24 hours a day, blah, blah, blah. It um, would be a three month contract.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it would be three month contract. And then once it's finished, it's finished. Um, and it could probably be set up in a week or so. I mean most of the, most of the time when you're setting up a channel, the biggest challenge is actually getting all the schedules and all the content from the, the client.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because they need to get their ducks in a row. Um, so that's, that's where, where we're, we're at. And we're at the stage where we set up last year and then this year is where we're, we've got two, two of our first clients in, um. Sadly we're not allowed to talk about them.

Speaker A: No. Okay. Don't talk about them.

Speaker B: Which is annoying. It's great we've got clients because everyone loves revenue. You, um, but it'll be great to be able to talk about them because, um, when there's a new setup, despite the level of experience, because one of my colleagues who runs the lead center is Victoria. But um, and she's got years of experience in playout, the same way I have. But she's very, um, she's got a lot of ITV experience, whereas that's one of the places I haven't worked. So between us, one of the only

Speaker A: ones, Stephen, I think payment.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So, um, so but between us, we can talk to most clients about most things.

Speaker A: Got it covered.

Speaker B: Um, and we deliberately don't have any salespeople because no offense to any salespeople, but in our sort of bit of the industry, uh, clients don't really want to be sold to because they already know they want to launch a channel. They already know they want to do player. You don't have to sell them anything, you just, you become more of an advisor. Um, or as one of the clients we were talking to the other day, Said to Victoria, she said, I feel like I'm being mentored by you because obviously Victoria's got form with Rise as well. She was involved in Rise, so she was. Ended up mentoring one of the clients about the right way of dealing with some of the difficult situations internally to get what we needed. Um, so that's what we're doing. Yeah, so it's a new set of a new way of doing playout. Um, and there's so many amazing people in Leeds as well.

Speaker A: Changed enormously, hasn't it? Yeah, really changed engineers.

Speaker B: This is a real community. I know Salford is the one that gets the most of visibility, but in Leeds there's a real set of really interesting people, really good people. So, yeah, I'm pretty confident.

Speaker A: So, yeah, I love it. Oh, uh, Stephen, what an incredible career you've had. I've loved chatting with you today, but before we wrap up, could you. Could you just tell me what keeps you working in this industry? Why have you stayed in the media space?

Speaker B: I think it's the people. It really is the people. And, uh, then the other answer is when I, I did a. A role for a company was more of a transformation role a few years ago that ended up the company being sold. So once I'd finished that, I got made redundant, which I knew was going to happen. And I thought at that stage said, oh, that's. This would be a good, good place to draw a line under things. I've had a. I've had a great time. Takes early retirement and. And I mentioned that at one of the shows to one of my oldest or not oldest colleagues, longest colleagues, um, who I worked with at Red B. And I said, I'm just gonna fade away quietly. I've had a good time. And she was literally, no, you're not. Then literally within about 10 minutes, she said, come and meet these people. And that was the Levira, the CEO of Livira and the others. Um, so I tried, I did try to sort of step away gracefully, but I was bullied.

Speaker A: We're not letting you, Stephen, we're not letting you dis. Disappear quietly into the background. Absolutely.

Speaker B: People. That was the people side. And when I met the, um, the Levira people, um, I was, I was, I was just ready to say, yeah, thank. Not really nice to meet you, but not interested. But they were considering. It was the CEO and the. Another board member. Actually, they were just really quite compelling what they were talking about. And when they described, uh, what they wanted to build and why they wanted to build it in Leeds and what we were going off for the industry. It was like, oh, you got me, I'm in. Yeah, exactly. And I have to say I probably did the same with Victoria when I brought Victoria in. So I can't be completely, um, innocent in that way.

Speaker A: And what about Stephen? If anyone's listening to this and they want to get into the kind of the play outside of the industry specifically, because that's the area you've that we're talking about. What advice would you give to anybody that wants to kind of get into this part of the sector? Any top tips?

Speaker B: Any top tips? I'd say get involved in any industry initiatives. You can just, uh, you can uh, you can join smpte. Obviously it doesn't cost for. If you're a student it might be free or very cheap. Go to SMPTE events, go to. And SMPTE seems like a technical society from the outside. Yes, it's technical but it's where loads of people go. So just get yourself in front of loads of people. Um, the RTS, if you're under 33, you can join the RTS for £33 and they have lots of interesting events. You can go to those events, um, with not being a member but you have to pay like 15 pounds for some of them. So it's probably better to pay you 33. If you're a student, you get free membership. Um, there's media production show that happens every year in Olympia and you've got, got manufacturers and service providers there. So just look out for all those different industry shows and it's much easier to find them now because you can probably just type something, um, mundane into chat, GPT or Gemini or one of these things or Copilot, um, and find all the things that are happening. Um, the challenge with Playout in particular, and that side of it is if you want to get into program making, you can look at the end credits and you can, you can sort of pause it and you can see a camera operator or a sound mixer and then you can search them and say, oh, I watched the traitors that you did the sound directing on. It was great. But you never get in play out. You don't get any credits. You can't see who the Playout directors are.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Um, and put yourself on LinkedIn. I know it might sound a bit old fashioned, but get linked, get on LinkedIn. Um, start making connections there. So when you do go to a, one of the these events, um, you can have a little QR code on your phone. That's your LinkedIn profile. Once you've spoken to somebody, as long as it's relevant, just ask if they can link in with you. M. And then have an opinion as well on these, um, events. You go to an event, if somebody says something on stage or in a conversation, just make a post about it and say, oh, it's really interesting when I heard so and so say this about that. Um, so those are the, those are the tips. But say yes to everything. Say yes if you get an opportunity. And going way further back, um, if you're at school, do theater, lighting and sound, or get involved in things that might lead you in the right direction so that you've. You've always got an answer. When an interviewer says, tell me about a time when. M. When you're very early in your career and you've never had a time when in. It's quite difficult to answer that. But if you've, if you've done. I was talking to somebody the other day who was going for a job in sound and, uh, she'd done little bits, but not very much. So I said, well, go and, um, go and find someone who's doing some amateur dramatics and go and see how they do theater. And then when they talk to you in an interview, tell me about a time when you've had a challenging situation with sound. You can just turn around and say, oh, actually at the weekend we had 25, um, amateur actors and nobody knew how to wear the microphone packs and they wouldn't have their batteries changed, so I had to blah, blah, blah. Just gives you something to talk about.

Speaker A: Yeah, it really does. Really. Yeah. Um, excellent advice. Thank you. That were. I think all of those things make a big difference. And if you do all of them, then actually your chances of finding the right person with the right job then just starts to build from there, doesn't it? Um, Stephen, thank you so much for your time today. It has been a joy talking to you and good luck with Avera and all your work that you're doing with the team there. And ah, yeah, don't fade away. We don't want you doing that. We need you in the industry. And thank you for all of the work that you do supporting women in the sector and, and everybody in terms of changing the diversity and, um, supporting education and, um, just everything that you do. Stephen.

Speaker B: Sam.