Masters of MEDDICC - High-Performance Sales Leadership with Marina Ayton - Episode #16

Speaker A: In order to be successful, particularly in this environment, you have to have the like, tenacity, the grit, the like determination. Everything that you have to do in these organizations is to focus on your team. How to create high performance environments, how to coach people to play better on the pitch, how to find development areas where you're seeing things that people haven't seen. How can you change their diet? Like all of these things that professional athletes do all the time. And if you focus on the team and their performance on the pitch, then the fans sort themselves out.

Speaker B: Welcome to Masters of Medic. I'm here today with Marina Ayton, Vice president of Strategic Accounts for the UK at, uh, zscad. How are you doing, Marina? It's good to see you.

Speaker A: Hello. Yeah, it's so nice to. So nice to be here in such a professional setup.

Speaker B: That's great, isn't it?

Speaker A: I feel like I'm like being interviewed on the BBC. It's very exciting.

Speaker B: But better. But better.

Speaker A: But better. Exactly.

Speaker B: How are you doing? You well?

Speaker A: I'm really good. Yeah.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: Busy, but good. Lots of, lots of things going on. But that's, that's the game, isn't it?

Speaker B: That is the game for our audience who don't know you. Why don't you let them know a little bit about yourself and how you got into this wonderful world of sales?

Speaker A: Okay, sure. Um, so, yeah, I'm Marina Ayton. I run our strategic business at Zscaler, where I've been for the last four and a half years. How time flies. Um, I don't think, I think like many people, I don't have the most conventional way of how I actually got into sales. Let me take you back to a little bit about my family because I think that will give you a little insight into perhaps where my, like, drive and ambition came from. Um, I came from a family, amazing family. I've got four brothers and sisters. Um, my dad also has four brothers and sisters. My mum was an only child. Um, and the two of them had literally, uh, you know, started from absolutely nothing. My mum was a fishmonger. When her mum died, died, she took over her, like, small fishmonging business. And my dad's dad had gone bankrupt when he was very young. Um, and he trained as a, a lawyer and he got some dodgy builders in one day and they'd knocked down the wrong wall in his house and the whole house had collapsed. And so he found himself in, you know, some other country, uh, just to be able to pay his mortgage. Right. Um, and while we were growing up, um, they had decided that they didn't want to work for anyone else, but they wanted to work for themselves. And they tried loads of different businesses, right, and put their absolute all into growing something and building something together. That was incredible. Um, and I lived through all of that, right? And as a kid, I think when you see two people with the work ethic like that, um, it instills in you, firstly, a level of belief, secondly, like, a level of, like, inspiration around, like, what it takes to truly be successful. And I think I was very fortunate because I was the oldest of four children. Like, like, I was at the age where I could see the sacrifices that they'd made in order to send us all to amazing schools, in order to support us, in order to, you know, provide for us this incredible life that we had. Um, and I think, you know, when I went through my, like, early stages of my career, all of that sat with me and still sits with me today. It's like, why I literally bounce out of bed and I want to, like, go and get the next thing and like, you know, um, strive for something, uh, more, um, and that all comes from them. So, uh, that's quite a long winded way of starting your question. But, um, when I was going through university, I'd been kind of, like, really inspired by this, like, build and learn and develop kind of mentality that we always had at home. You know, every Sunday lunch was like an episode of Dragon's Den. Who's got an idea? What are we going to do? How are we going to execute it? Um, and it was so fun. I think that a common denominator between, like, salespeople that I speak to is like, the. Their store story that they tell, whether it's their parents or whether it's an environment they've been in or whatever it is, it hasn't always been easy. And that's the thing. Like, you know, we went through like, the, you know, the 80s 90s of this, like, booming economy and like, everything was easy. The world was peaceful. We had this. We had the Cold War. And it was like, you know, it was, it was, it was fine in comparison to what we have now, right? We, we are in a environment where nothing is on our side. Yeah, we've got a massively, uh, down market. You know, the tec boom is kind of over. People are focused on, you know, everyone talks about shareholder return and, you know, uh, we're seeing layoffs across the board in tech companies. And like, it's. It's hard. It's really hard. So like in order to be successful particularly in this environment, you have to have the like tenacity, the grit, the like determination to be able to see through all of the noise and, and rubbish situations. Right. And the things are going to hit you in order to believe that you're going to be okay.

Speaker B: And belief like that uh, uh, you know it's, it's all of those things you talked about, determination, tenacity, grit. I feel like they get a lot of air time for. Rightly so. Don't get me wrong rightly so. But for me the thing that always is paramount to those things having a logical like surface of like where you're trying to get to is that kind of belief. But belief in line with that aspiration. Because it's like people that are driven, they're driven because in my opinion they can see their potential and they know where they can get to. They know what they're capable of. And so all of those great attributes, traits are pushing the person towards their potential. And this is where I think it's really interesting where it ties in with things like imposter syndrome where I have this like very like firm belief that or like definition if you like of imposter syndrome which is you don't get imposter syndrome unless you are, you have two ingredients. The first are ah, that you are self aware and the second is that you're growing. And it's almost like if it's like a uh, if it's like a chart you have like one access is your self awareness and the other access is your growth. And the imposter syndrome happens in the top right where there's a lot of self awareness and a lot of growth. Because if you're growing but you're not self aware then you don't have imposter syndrome because you're not questioning yourself. You're the not saying this is new, I shouldn't be in this room, I've not been in this room before, that kind of thing. So the self awareness is what makes you realize you've got it. But if you have high self awareness, if you're not growing, there's nothing new.

Speaker A: Yeah, but I think going back to your like previous. Well what you said earlier is you know, about believing in yourself that you can do better that I think taking it back to like from uh, a leadership standpoint, great leaders are the people that see potential in people that they can't see themselves. And that's like when you meet a leader that like changes your life and changes your career. It's the people that push you to do the things that you do not think that you're capable of.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And like, I personally think, you know, imposter syndrome is something that's, like, thrown around all the time, particularly in women. They always talk about it. Um, but, like, if you're not scared to be in a room or you're scared to do something, you're not growing. That's your. That's your point, right? It's like. Yeah, it's like if you're. If you're not putting yourself in a situation where you feel uncomfortable, the growth isn't there. And for me, like, God, it would be boring if we weren't growing every day. And like, you know, I encourage my teams and myself. I mean, I. I'm like, super lucky because I've been, um, very fortunate in the environments that I've been able to grow up in during. Well, at home, but also, especially in my career. Right. Where, you know, as long as you're coming from the right place and you have all the right intentions and you care enormously about what you're doing, there is no problem with, like, getting it wrong sometimes, you know, if you have the best intentions and you get it wrong, or we mess a meeting up or, you know, the outcome that we've driven for doesn't happen, that's okay because you tried.

Speaker B: Yeah, right, agreed. And I love what you said about leaders there, helping you realize your potential. And that goes back to what I mentioned a second ago about how your parents were kind of leaders in that same context still are. They help you see your potential. They help you see, you know, where you've got area to grow and help you drive towards that sort of aspiration you have of yourself. And so that idea of, like, imposter syndrome, where I think it really comes in and is like, you have that, like, gray area of growth when you're. When you're in that gray area, it's like, it's not binary. It's not black and white. You're in this kind of gray area where you're growing. And I always say to people, when, you know, when people mention that, they sort of open up about feeling that way, is I bet you, if you remember the. If remember something, you had imposter syndrome about a year ago and you've been, you know, you've grown a year since then. If you look back, how ridiculous does it feel that you felt.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Inadequate in that position all the time.

Speaker A: I get it, like, in months Right. Like, it's like, oh my God, I was so terrified to do that. And then a month later I'm like doing that every single day. Right. Yeah, um, yeah, I completely agree.

Speaker B: And then the unpopular perhaps opinion here, but you mentioned that imposter, um syndrome gets used a lot. Uh, predominantly, I would say, uh, women saying they have imposter syndrome. Well, going back to my chart, my, my perhaps unpopular opinion would be that women are more self aware.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: That's why that maybe everybody's growing the same amount. But if you have more self awareness, you're going to be more aware that, that you're growing and therefore you have that feeling.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And I also think the self awareness from a women, uh, standpoint comes from, um, a, I believe, maybe contentious, um, from a more innate curiosity that we have so constantly interested in, like how I can get better, requesting feedback, wanting to know all of this stuff, um, and that perspective from other people and asking for it allows me to become more self aware and therefore know where my gaps are, figure out what I need to learn, figure out where I need development. Um, and not just ask for it in like a quarterly review or whatever it is, but make it consistent so it's not like a, you know, a thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And like anyone listening to this right now, whatever your passion is by nature of listening to this podcast, you'll have a passion that is kind of performance driven just because that's our audience.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And whoever they reflect on, whether it's a colleague, whether it's a peer, whether it's mentor, whether it's someone they look up to as a sports person or something like that. You. Every person listening will be able to think of someone that they look up to who has what you describe there as coachability, who is like always looking for that next gain.

Speaker A: Yeah. But what you talk about in Passion is really interesting. This, this notion of like, you know, working hard, uh, working hard without a purpose is just stress. Right. Or like working hard for something that you don't really care about. It's just stress.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So like, when, when I talk about like, who, uh, I want to hire and what needs to be in my team, it's working hard for something that I really care about is passion.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like, sorry, it's not.

Speaker B: I like that you said passion and then hit the mic. That was spot on.

Speaker A: I'm done.

Speaker B: Don't drop that.

Speaker A: Um, no, but that's true. Right. And it's like if you like in, in or whatever, you're Selling. Right. If you, if you don't have like a true passion for the customer or the outcome or the development that you're getting in that organization or the open mindset of like learning new things and becoming a different kind of person, ye then yeah, it's freaking hard work. Imagine just like traipsing through sales processes trying to learn medic for like no reason.

Speaker B: I uh, know and I always say this, it's like a lot of like a lot of what we give as like like as, as leaders give us good sales advice. Good sales coaching only works if you genuinely believe. Not necessarily. It doesn't have to be that your product is the best product in the world. As in like the one that like ticks every box.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But you have to believe, you believe that your solution is the best solution for the customer you're selling to.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so if it doesn't do everything 10 out of 10 you think that perhaps a third of those things the customer doesn't need. So therefore it's unnecessary complexity or cost, you know, so it doesn't have to always be the best solution. When I say that it's just the best solution that fits that customer's needs.

Speaker A: The best smart way to get decision criteria.

Speaker B: It is a really, really smart way to get to decision criteria.

Speaker A: No but, but you're so right. Like decision criteria in like an RFP isn't all about like the technical specification of what that product solves in a specific environment. Right. It's about is my business and is the, is the fix for the problem that the customer has the right one. Based on our ability to execute, based on the team that I've got, based on the operational um, operational resilience that we've built and put in place. Like we are a mission critical service that is going to hold up this company. Are we best placed to serve that customer? Yes. So all of those things, things like going back to medic are around uh, educating the customer on why other areas of their criteria need to be taken into, into consideration in order to make the best decision for their business. And this is like you know, this is where sales is or, or uh, like you know, playbook companies are uh, misinterpreted sometimes. Right. Because actually all the sales process is and all medic is as like a qualification tool is making, creating a science behind en us to get the right outcome for the customer.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And it's like it's a very different thing when you're selling a point product that is, that solves one problem that you know, the deal size, I don't know, I want to say 100k, but maybe 20k in some situations. You know, people. That's not complex, right. People can make decisions like that overnight and be like, yeah, we'll take that solution that's not transformational, that's not selling something that's truly going to impact the champions that you've been working with for however long. Right? So, yes, interesting.

Speaker B: It is interesting. And the thing around um, RFPs, we, we get asked a lot from our customers where they will sort of talk about the deal will come up. You know, we're in this rfp, but you know, it's not, it's not suiting towards our strengths. What should we do? And it's like that you're not in the right rfp then like there's no point following somebody else's decision criteria if you genuinely believe that it's either not best for you to win or not best for the customer solution they need.

Speaker A: I think we, I think we're going through like a, an interesting phase in people's, um, people's approach to uh, how they pick technology. Right. And RFPs, we see them, we see them lots. But my view on it is if you're shocked by an rfp, the you haven't done your job right in the first place, right? Because none of us should be unaware of an rfp, particularly in my business, right, where I, I should know every single one of my customers, what they're doing, who they are, what their names are, all the, um, because you know, in, in the current role I have, I look after you say the like, top 60 customers, largest customers, um, across the UK and Ireland or global customers, you know, like HSBC, Barclays, whatever it is, um, we should know everything going on in their organizations because my teams have, you know, between two and four accounts to look after each and with that comes a requirement to almost know people's businesses better than they know their own. Um, but the RFP thing is, is interesting, right? I, I really believe. And where we've. I'll tell you a story actually.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I can't say the customer's name but, um, you know, we had been um, just classic pipeline generation for a long time and speaking to a lot of people in the organization, the team had done an amazing job. We had um, we always knew that they were going to have to go out to market to do an RFP because they are a regulated, uh, regulated industry and they need to make sure, you know, all the books are clean. Whatever.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Um, they. What the team did amazingly well was based on, you know, not enforcing our playbook, not enforcing Medic, but acting as a consultant for that company. They said, you know, when we work with large financial services customers like X and um, Y, typically they find the RFP process the most effective when they do these three interesting things. Right. So what that allowed us to do, and before then, obviously we'd done a huge amount of discovery sessions. Um, the team had done a great job and setting the decision criteria that was, you know, in a. In a way that, um, differentiated. Differentiated us not just from a product set like we were talking about earlier, but also from a company and perspective and you know, um, experience standpoint, but it also, um, allowed them to then be fully in control of that RFP process. So it worked. Worked as, you know, firstly, the RFP responses. We were able to answer everything. Secondly, um, you, um, all of our differentiated capabilities were all, uh, mandated. Right. They were things that were business critical to that organization. We knew who our competition would be because, like, the best sales people know their competition better than the competition know themselves. Right. Um, and then, you know, we were able to. What often happens in an RFP situation is you get locked out the account. Right. Um, and we all know that deals don't happen without champions, and champions don't get built without driving activity. And therefore, you know, what we were able to do is continue driving the momentum because we had already pre. Pre told them how many meetings they were going to need a week, how many workshops they were going to need, that they were going to need a bva. Because at some point someone was going to say, why are you going to spend $10 million on this product? Like, are you going to need a defensible business case? Well, of course we are. So, like, all of this stuff, um, and positioning the sales process so early before knowing that they were going to go out to an RFP allows you to control that narrative in a really smart way.

Speaker B: Absolutely right. And here's the thing. I say this a lot and I think people get upset at me when I say it, but I think because it's true more so than they disagree with it, no customer, no champion, no one in the customer's business ever gets out of bed in the morning and thinks, what have I got today? Oh, I'm meeting vendor X and goes, can't wait, can't wait. More buying and more technology. Just can't wait to get stuck into it. And so what they're looking for is the most efficient engagement they Want it to be as efficient as possible. They don't want to have to spend 10 meetings if it can be done in five. But they also have to make sure it's diligent, right? They want to make sure they're not buying the wrong solution. Because, as you said, particularly, the more complex it gets, the more transformative it is, the more businesses literally go offline and fail if they get these things wrong. So it's massively important. So what you describe there, yes, there's a fair argument to say you're setting yourself up as a vendor for success, but the reason why you're doing that is because you're setting the customer up for success to have the best engagement they can from you.

Speaker A: Exactly. But that's the art of the sales process. Medic. Right. It's like, I. You know, the worst thing is, like, you know, when you. Everyone always talks about, oh, it's so difficult to get to an economic buyer. It's like, yeah, of course it's bloody difficult.

Speaker B: Yeah. I don't want it to be easy. Of course it's difficult because then everyone will be doing it.

Speaker A: But like, like, if you say, um, you know, this is a stupid thing, but, you know, you say to someone, um, before we start the pov, I'm going to need to meet your boss. Because, uh, my company says, uh, in our sales process, we can't start POV unless we've met the EB first. Right.

Speaker B: Awful.

Speaker A: But, you know, the positioning, the sales process and elements of. You're not positioning. Medic. Right. I'm not saying that, but it's at least. It's like the compass for how you might react in the next bit of your deal. But, like, if you talk in a way that makes a customer think. So I'll give you. I'll give you the other side of that. Right? You say, um, Andy, we've been working together now for two weeks. I'm really not too. Probably, you know, two months, six months, whatever it is. I'm really excited. I feel like we've got, like, a really clear understanding of the problems that you want to solve and how we're going to go and solve them. Um, obviously the next bit is to make sure that it works in your environment and we can test it adequately. Um, is there anyone else that needs to be involved to make this decision? Because where I've done this with large customers before, we, you know, we've been caught out at the end because we've missed a certain thing that's really important to a cio, for example, do you think it would be valuable for us to just, you know, meet him for 15 minutes next week and see and, and see that we've captured everything that he'd be interested in?

Speaker B: Yeah, love it.

Speaker A: And that's a different conversation, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And that's a soundbite, by the way. But also, um, what you did there, which I think is a very underused, um. I wouldn't call it a tactic because I guess it is a kind of tactic, but sort of strategy, if you like, um, is you're not confronting, in this case, your champion. It should be. And saying, I need to do this for me. Or you're saying, like, um, if this doesn't happen, these bad things will happen. Which is kind of what you are saying. But the way in which you're saying is where I've seen this happen before and where it's gone wrong. And so you're kind of. It's like this really nice thing where you're taking. Taking confrontation out of the way. You're not saying this will happen, you're saying, typically, this might happen. We see this happen all the time. You don't want that to happen. I don't want that to happen, so let's avoid it. You're not kind of putting yourself up against.

Speaker A: It's like, you've put so much work into this. Yeah, it's, it's. And this is like. And this is genuinely what now I, I really focus on when I'm hiring. When we talk about the team, it's. They have to be obsessed with the customer. Like, it's, it's about the customer. And you have to have genuine care about the champions that you're building. And you have to personally care about them. And if that's insincere, it's incredibly clear to that customer. Right. And, you know, I think, like, even more so now. You know, when I was first starting, we were so lucky because we didn't have Covid hadn't happen. Everyone was in the office. It was really normal to be on site with your customers all the time. You get water cooler chats, you go to the pub after your meetings. You. You know, it's just like even that,

Speaker B: like, walk from reception to the meeting room and back. It's like briefing and debriefing, like the. The richest minutes of the whole meeting.

Speaker A: 100%, you know, like, that reminds me, um, I. You know, when you're in the lift with someone, you're talking about their family, where they're Going on holiday. You know, I, I always think that you should get their contact page up on your phone and there's a section in there that you can. And you put what their kids called, you put where they're going on holiday, what's their wife called, and then three weeks later when you meet them, it's like, how's. Yeah, Sophie.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, what's.

Speaker B: How was Gran Canary?

Speaker A: Yeah, how was the Gran Canary Islands? Like, what did you guys do?

Speaker B: I think it's a really interesting topic. The whole optimizing for the new world we sell in of like remote selling. And I know from a conversation you and I have had before that you as a leader and uh, like operating at what I would class the very, very sharpest end of sales execution. You folks are thinking about, you know, how do you present yourself best in a, in a zoom meeting or a teams meeting or whatever.

Speaker A: Oh, massive. Like, I think like people underestimate this. Like, how do you show up to things? Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And like on a, on a zoom meeting, your tone, you know, I'm not for anyone who knows me very well, I am not a good texter. Uh, and I am not a great emailer, right. Because I'm very direct and my directness can be really misinterpreted through texting. And you've probably been on the other side of that as well. Um, like, it's, uh, it's. It's not. I'm working on it. I'm, I really am. Yeah, I'm self aware about it. But like, I'm also like, I'm. I. That's just me, right? I am very direct. Um, but the way that you, if you're on a zoom meeting, be present in the zoom meeting, have your camera on and show up, do not have your phone, do not have slack on, do not have anything else on, show up and be in the room with that person. You know, the other thing, just like basic 101 stuff and that I speak to my team about, it's like, have a screen in front of you. Do not be side looking or looking at two screens like this. It's incredibly distracting. It looks like you, you are uh, being kind of disrespectful. And the other thing is like when you talk to people on zoom, match them, right? It's like, it's a, it's a psychology thing. But like in, in person, right? You don't, if someone says something really quietly, you don't shout back at them, for example, right? It's just like, it's Just like being a normal human being, but on a zoom call. Like, the importance of building a rapport at the beginning of the zoom call, like, how are you? I mean, as English people, we always talk about the weather, but maybe just like, try and get away from that a little bit. I still do it. Um, you know, build a bit of rapport. Gather what the tone of that person is, how they're feeling that day, how they approach things. And match yourself. Right. Be calm, collected, look into the bloody camera, things like that.

Speaker B: I have this, like, be in my bonnet about this because it's like in the days when we used to meet in person, we would, you know, rightfully so. People would spend good money on what they'd wear to work suits, you know, all those different types of things that people are wearing to turn up and look not necessarily out and out smart, but just well presented.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Um, and then we get, we get into this work from home environment and people are turning up to call sort of their hats on backwards. And you can see the bed in the background that's unmade.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm not into that.

Speaker B: Yeah. And point about having, like, the different screen thing is just crazy. The one that, the one that always gets me is the, um, the person, particularly people. If you're listening to this and you don't, you haven't sussed this out, but if you wear glasses, the people that are on Zoom review can see exactly what you're looking at. They can see what's on your screen. So if you do bring up Slack, if you do bring up your emails, they can see that they're not on the screen in the reflection in their glasses. Ah. Uh, so that's the thing. And also, even if you don't wear glasses, like, Zoom has a dark ui, as do most the platforms, uh, that you use. And if you switch to a light ui, your face lights up so you can literally see you've opened website. So it's like, yeah, yeah. You know, to your customer, they're gonna subconsciously or consciously know that you're not paying attention to them. And it's just, it's just a really bad, bad place to be.

Speaker A: Yeah. Zoom etiquette.

Speaker B: I mean, I'll go. I go as far as saying, like, you shouldn't, like, you should practice your flow if you're gonna be demoing, sharing a screen. Like, no one, like, there's no more cliche, frustrating thing of, uh, can you see my screen? Is that working? It's like, you know, get beyond that. Like, you should should work now. You should have sustained this three years. Yeah, yeah, we're there now. Hopefully we should be there. So yeah, we're talking about being doing things for three years. I haven't uh. You've been at ah, Zscaler, Zscaler four and a half years. You have more zeros I think probably in your, your target than companies that are going for IPO have in their annual revenue as a team. Right.

Speaker A: We have an annual number, we have quarterly numbers and we have a responsibility for the uh, to the business to deliver those numbers. But the most is um, we run a long term business. Right. We are driving true transformational um uh transformational change for companies. And that takes time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So you go on a journey with people. Right. And so are like my priority uh now is about focusing on what the North Star is for every single customer that we engage with. And as part of that North Star naturally they're going to be a phased approach to how that company gets there. But like you need to have buy in for what the vision is to start with.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and I think where some people or companies get it wrong is like that vision is very you know uh, go to market focused. It's very like um, I want to do a million dollar deal with X customer. Right. Whereas what I'm saying is um, we need to take X customer to this Nevada state. How do we pull it back and get there? And yes that uh, that state is you know $10 million in arrival. But let's focus about the business outcomes for the customer because that's what drives the behavior of the, of the team. I think where I was going with this is in order to drive true change like that it takes a freaking army. Right. And, and my, and my, and uh, my team now the requirements for what it takes to be in a team like that have changed. Right. I need people who are experienced, I need people who are patient. I need people who are outcome focused that have different skills across the sales process and, and ah, and that combining with medic. Um uh I need people who um, have great executive presence in the room because when you think about the economic buyer they are changing. We, we're in rooms with CEOs and CFOs now. Um, and like the team that sits around that, whether that's technical account management, whether it's customer success, whether it's professional services, deployment teams, teams, architecture, like the ability to run service reviews, all of these things like they could be working. You know we, I, I mandated in my um, across my team and I would strongly advise anyone who doesn't do this to do it. That every single, um, account or customer that we have has a Slack channel. And on that Slack channel there is, um, there is, uh, every single person that touches that account and on a Friday, every single day, everyone who has regular touch points with that customer and in line with their mission, they provide an update on, um, what value we've driven to the customer, whether there are any challenges that that customer's facing where they need help. Because when you get into second line, it's all about help and moving barriers and like, what the plan is for next week. And like that is just like getting everyone, um, on the same page for the mission that is the customer.

Speaker B: So how many people are typically, you know, you mentioned some company names Typ one of those accounts. How many people are in a typical customer Slack channel?

Speaker A: 30.

Speaker B: 30. Yeah. Right.

Speaker A: So like, you know, these, these people are, you know, we, we talk about in, in tech sales and I think we were discussing it earlier, a lot of people have very inflated titles and they, you know, you go to a startup and you're a CRO of six people, whatever it is. Right. Like at the end of the day, like in a startup, my account directors would probably be classed as regional vice presidents, right. Because, because the business that they run is multimillion dollars. First of all, they are the quarterback of that customer account team. They then are responsible for their direct account team, which is, you know, four or five people. And then underneath that they've got all of these other resourcing capabilities that they also have to manage control, get everyone in the boat rowing in the same direction, set the vision, get everyone pumped. Um, so it's a different kind of thing. And that's why I, like, it's like, for me this is like, it's really fun, it's really new, it's bigger deals than I ever thought I would be doing and it truly, it truly changes people's businesses.

Speaker B: Yeah. There's two bits I want to dig into on this because I think there's two really exciting topics. One which we'll start with, which will be about your career journey. And you know, you mentioned about the, the kind of possible, different directions you could have gone in. The other one is like, how do you, you know, how do you communicate common language with those groups? So I'll start with, uh, the career direction stuff because I think we see this a lot and this seems to have accelerated where, um, I always describe it as you have, like, in your career you have ladders and um, different ladders have different like airs of seniority. And what I mean by that is, you said it yourself, you could, you could be a, you could be a CRO, no question asked in um, tons of ladders. And what I mean by that is like anything from like the, the literal just started out to the series A, series B, series C, you know, all the way up to probably like, you know, getting on series depending on stage of company, that's what series D, you know, um, whereas like somebody, if you rewind the clock back to your first role in leadership, you could have gone and been the CRO of the startup, you know what I mean? So it's like the titles are kind of, kind of, they run parallel with the ladders at uh, different, different rungs, if you see what I mean. And so what's really interesting from this fascinating insight you're giving about like how much excitement and new learning and all this great stuff you're getting from, you know, keeping on the Z scaler ladder, as it were, is really interesting because there are for sure, I mean I, you said it yourself, but even people that know that I know you contact me and say, hey, like, hey, is Marina, like, you know, Marina would be great for this role over here. And I'm like, you know, you need to speak to Marina. But like, you know what I mean? So I know it's happening because if it coming to me, then it's definitely happening at your doorstep. And so the, there's for people listening who, you know, are probably similar to you in like driven their career. Like it's great to have um, so much insight and positivity to talk uh, about staying on that, that ladder where you are and growing with the company and the opportunity.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think I, Well I really believe this. Right.

Speaker B: Change.

Speaker A: Change is inevitable in any company if they're growing fast. Right. That is just the nature of the. If there isn't constant change, then you should be worried about that. Right? And change by its very nature is uncomfortable. But for me, uh, like I would advise anyone to sit in that uncomfortableness because sitting in, being uncomfortable means that you are growing as a person. And if you're not uncomfortable every day and you're not showing up doing things that you're terrified to do or you're not, you know, you feel like you've done this a million times before, then like you're not developing yourself and you know, true. If, if people are truly interested in uh, developing themselves as a better human being, as a better professional, as A better salesperson then they gotta sit in these companies that, that give opportunity. And you know, you see a lot of people in the industry and I like, you know, um, and I think everyone has their own path. Right. That hot from startup to startup. You know, startups have gone from 50, uh, million to 100 or are whatever. And they go and they repeat that number of times again. Like the story is the same. They're building the same thing again and again because they know how to go and do that. Right. And they are excellent at it. They, they are brilliant at uh, that journey.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: If your purpose is that you want to genuinely change people's lives forever because, you know, the technology, like that's why I love this sector so much. You can genuinely. Two years in a company of someone selling as an RSM or an RD can genuinely their lives both in terms of opportunity that is created at home through money or whatever it is, but equally through like the development and the confidence that you're able to give people. If your purpose is around like really caring about people and changing their lives, then leadership is the thing for you. Like that, that for me is like if you uh. And, and it's freaking hard. Right? Sorry. It obviously didn't swear, but almost it is. It's so hard. Right? Yeah. You, you go from being an IC in that situation where it's like, look what I did, how amazing you, you, you are able to take accountability and responsibility. Everything that goes well. Right. As a leader. Nothing that goes well is on you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It is on everyone else in your team.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And everything that goes badly is all on you. And, and those, and those two things are, are, they're quite, they're quite hardcore. Right.

Speaker B: Very hard.

Speaker A: Like.

Speaker B: And most people, and it's got to be 90, if not percent of the time, if not more. If you're moving into sales leadership, you are, uh, you move into first line sales leadership first. That's kind of everyone.

Speaker A: That's the hardest.

Speaker B: It is the hardest. And the reason. But what I think people may not realize as they step into that role is it's hardest for all the reasons that are obvious. But it's also hardest because you really are the most lonely in that position because you're new to management and therefore you've got this new line that you have to adhere to, which is like I have to take the company line and sometimes the company line is not going to be popular with your team. And so you're kind of caught between this rock and a hard place where you have to Keep the company line because you have to maintain the integrity of the office that you sit in, which is leadership, which is the company's leadership. But you then have to be the voice of bad news or the voice of like discipline or whatever. Those things are also on the other side of that.

Speaker A: Uh, you know, you talk about like management leader. The only reason you got put in a leadership position in the first place by moving into first first line is because you were really, really good at the job that you did before.

Speaker B: Yes, right, sure. Yeah.

Speaker A: So then you, then you transition to. You are also still really good at the job you did before, but you are, your responsibility is then about making the person that sits beneath you really good at the job that you did before. Yeah, but when you, when you transition, it's very easy to become a micromanager because you know exactly how to do that job. And you've done that job many a, uh, times with your eyes closed before. Yes, but like you need to take the leadership line, which is teaching, allowing people to make mistakes. And that bit is so uncomfortable because you are, you know, you, it's difficult to explain. But you know, for me, I'm a complete perfectionist. Right. And I've had to learn through like multiple different leadership roles to relinquish control because the only way people are able to learn is to fail. And you're not going to let people fail catastrophic, Catastrophically. Right. Because like that, that's awful.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But um, but like if they don't feel like they can take risks and fail in your presence, then you, you can't build loyalty. And the whole thing with like, you know, leadership and, and I found it like le, I'm like pretty young to have the role that I have now.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And I, I've hired a lot of people who are significantly older than me. Um, and the only way that I've been able to create an environment of trust, trust, respect and all of the things that are really important in these like high performing teams is that I don't, I actually, all I care about is the people because I'm like, if the people are happy, um, then everything else will follow. Right. The customer outcomes will follow, the tools, the ingredients are being developed, all of this stuff.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah, I think so too. And I think you touched on it there, that, that, that relationship of having trust, that it's such a difficult balance where you're trying to not micromanage, you're not trying to, you know, wrap your arms too closely around the person to. So that you're kind of filling in all the gaps. And I think the, the thing that's very difficult to do as is yourself. You described it as being a perfectionist. I would describe it as having high standards.

Speaker A: Yes. Correct. Yeah.

Speaker B: And so it's uh, the, the balance you have to do and it's very hard to do for that frontline manager who has the consciousness and self awareness to know that they can't just own every deal. They can't just, just be subbing in, uh, for every, every time the deal goes off or stopping it. Where you think you could be doing a better job is you've got to keep them free to express their selves and do things the way they want to do without standards dropping.

Speaker A: Yeah, but that, and that is the art. Right. And that's the difference between high performance teams and not because the bar never moves. In fact the bar never moves down. The bar moves up. So my, my team now like what I am focused on is raising the bar every single day and then elevating all of the people that are in that team that are raising the bar. Like everyone. And this goes back to the importance of hiring great people is getting these people that are like full of energy, that are inspired every day to um, and putting them on a pedestal in front of everyone else to raise the bar to four people to be like, wow, I could do that. That looks hard but I'm going to try and do it and stuff like that. But the bar is. I, I haven't talked about it but like on every other conversation that we've ever had, I am like, you know, performance is super important because without holding everyone accountable for a certain level or quality of work.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You can't recruit the best people in the industry. It's impossible.

Speaker B: Right. And, and even if by some chance you by fluke you get a players in.

Speaker A: Oh, they're gone.

Speaker B: They are gone so fast. I mean I, I can, I can, you know, not just call myself an A player but I can put myself in this SC where I was in an organization that had a good product but I felt surrounded by people that I'm not going to talk about their ability, I'm going to talk about their approach, their, their appetite to, to, to, to raise the bar, to adhere to a standard. Right.

Speaker A: But uh, but I would say the A player thing comes back to have you got the right first line leaders in place? Because that's actually the crux of the whole problem. Like one poor first line leader can dismantle mental an entire team. And I've seen it. It's awful.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. So like, my advice would be now is like, make sure that you do not rush the process of getting first line leaders in. They are the most important thing to your business. They define what culture looks like. They just, they define excellence. And, you know, culture isn't something you talk about. It's something that we do.

Speaker B: Yeah. Where do you sit then on, um, hiring, um, first line leaders as sort of from, from individual contributors as stretched leaders versus hiring somebody in.

Speaker A: I am a huge fan of promoting people internally. I think it's like, it's the most important thing. They're a trusted resource. They know how to do it. They've worked with you before. They understand the mission. I would say that's always the preference. Right.

Speaker B: And no one gets promoted unless they've performed well as well. No one's like, you know, yeah, you

Speaker A: have to be a credible entity. Right. You earn the right to get that role. And going back to imposter syndrome, like, you know, some people like, oh, you know, why am I in this role? So you earned it.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Like, it's great. The thing that I would say, um, uh, about like being promoted into, from rep into first line is that cut your teeth at something that has, um, that has lots of deals. Cut your teeth as, as a first line leader into an environment where you can. And there's a bit of a velocity play. Right.

Speaker B: Great advice.

Speaker A: So like, when I, I'm so grateful I did it this way. When I moved into firstline leadership, I, I, um, ran an enterprise team. Right. And the enterprise team was doing at the time, I think like the average deal size was like 40k. By the end of it, we'd like risen that to 240k in terms of like average deal size. And there were tons. Like, I hired, I was looking after 14 people.

Speaker B: People.

Speaker A: We hired so many people across Europe. Right. And the introduction into leadership in that team was unbelievable for me because I was managing, you know, 40 deals a quarter. Um, and with that you build muscle memory. You build like the ability to be like, I've seen this before. I know what to do. I, uh, you know, um, your common language is obviously medic. You're. You're able to, um, train your brain to ask the right questions to get to the outcome while teaching your rep something so that they can, you know, they can then answer the questions about their deals in a better, smarter, easier way. Um, so that, I mean, for me, that was like the best thing I ever did.

Speaker B: So going back to the big deals so we've got 30 people in this Slack Channel.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you're working on this, you know, transformational, you know, brilliant stuff like that is surely the, uh, second that Slack channel kicks into gear where there's like, okay, there's a sniff of an opportunity here, we're starting moving. That is a decision process and a half. Right. What is, what does that look like? How do you approach that?

Speaker A: Well, these deals, I don't know what we want to call them. Like mega deals.

Speaker B: Yeah, mega deals.

Speaker A: Mega deals. Right. These deals do not happen overnight. Right. They are a combination of really basically being extension of that customer or prospect. Right. You are spending every day as a employee of that bank or whatever it is. Right. You intrinsically understand what that customer want to achieve on a board level, on a IT level, on a security level. If it's us. Right. Um, what does the, what does the decision process or what does the sales play look like before you get to the decision process? Well, it's bloody complicated because, um, when you're selling a platform like Zscall, you know, you might have 26 different components that all have to have a three Y's that always all have to have a differentiated success criteria. Well, that takes time and a lot of organization and all of the rest of it. Um, and once you've built, you know, what the value proposition looks like, you've built the business value assessment, you understand like the ROI and the implications if a company does nothing. Right. Because a lot of what we're doing now in this down economy is fighting against doing nothing. Um, so like once you've done all of that, the decision process is, you know, the bit. Well, I think all of medic across, um, a deal like that has to be under constant scrutiny and constant review because information from here, information from there can change the criteria, it can change the decision process. You know, you might have a, um, you might be doing, um, a deal that sits across, across five different org charts, um, at a big global bank. Right. How on earth are we going to be able to, you know, tick a box at the end of a day and say, we've got decision process, we know what's happening. It's an evolution and it constantly needs to be reviewed. So like the skill set, when you move from like a bit more, uh, a bit more kind of tactical or smaller deals where you can really tick a box and say it's, you know, it gets signed off, my champion. It goes to the CIO and then the CFO signs it off and the paper process looks like this or whatever it is.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like we don't have that luxury anymore. Right. It's, it's constantly asking questions. It's the like 300 stakeholders that we might be engaged with, like asking every single one of them and looking for the bad news or, you know, um, saying, I've been told this, but I, I can't quite figure out, um, like, where I'm going wrong. It all seems so simple, like, you know, just like. Yeah. It's a constant process. Yes.

Speaker B: Right. You're the customer. If they, if, if you, if you focus in on yourself. What do we need? What do we want? What's, you know, so we always say is like, what people get wrong about qualification is they're trying to qualify. Is there a deal here for me? Rather than, can I bring this customer value? And if your orientation is always, how can I ensure that in every evaluation I enter into, we are understanding first and foremost, can we bring this customer value? And if we can bring this customer value, is it going to be enough value to be high enough on their priorities list for them to involve the, the right people?

Speaker A: So this, this is such a. I, I, uh, love this bit because I used to get like, one of our problems when we, I was working in an enterprise team was like conversion rates after MBMS and the ability to win the stage and get back on site and, you know, drive the activity levels. Right. And convert effectively to pipeline or visible opportunity, whatever you want to call it. And like, it's like, it's like just smart things that you can do at the end of like a new business meeting, for example, where you close out the course. Cool. And you say, uh, you know, you. Well, there is like a bad way to do it in a good way. But like, the bad way might be. Well, thanks, Mr. Customer, like, did you get out of the meeting, um, what you want? Um, duh. Do you like it? Like, oh, would be great if I could come back and see you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, this week to like, do a deeper dive and maybe give you a demo, whatever it is. Right. And they're like, oh, that's going to take two hours. It sounds like, you know, a lot of work. I'll let you know. Let's.

Speaker B: That.

Speaker A: I'll, ah, we'll discuss internally.

Speaker B: Yeah. We'll debrief. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: But like, imagine if you said, um, if you said at the end of a new business meeting. Thank you so much for spending the last hour with us. I feel like, um, we've learned a lot about your business, but there are Definitely some areas that we lack understanding to make sure that we can actually solve the problems that you're looking to solve.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so Mr. Cio, what I propose, if it's okay with you, and obviously you've let them speak, is um, in two weeks time, I spend two weeks time, I come back to you, we spend half an hour together. Um, and during that period of time I'll work with some of your team to ensure, um, and to understand a little bit more about your business so that when I meet you, I can play back an executive summary and we can both decide whether, you know, this is going to be valuable. Um, this is going to be valuable, us spending any more time together.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker A: And it's like that builds trust because you're being respectful of the CIO's time because you're only asking for half an hour. But it's also smart because what you're allowing yourself to do is drive the activity with the rest of the team that are in that room to understand do they actually have a problem that we're solving. And then on the rep side of things, all you're doing there is you're qualifying your time and not chasing an opportunity there isn't going to amount into anything.

Speaker B: So in um, in the decision process, there's for, for these transformational opportunities you're working on. There is so much of, so much momentum you'll be building. But we talked a lot around, you know, business value and all of the work that goes into that. So much of that is not just, can't just be about proposing, hey, if you buy our solution, we're going to deliver this value. You, the, you're building true partnerships. Yeah. And so you must be looking beyond just, hey, like we think we're going to deliver this. There's your ROI.

Speaker A: Oh, 100%. Because in, in um, in these long term partnerships, right. Customers will stay with us. We are such a core compone of how any customer does business. Right. We sit in this very unique spot right in the middle, mission critical platform. And therefore our customers, we need to be able to go back to our customers and say, look how much value we're delivering for our business, uh, for your business. And one of the things that, you know, we've really started to try and um, do is these business um, value realization plays where, you know, you could do this in an executive quarterly, uh, business review where you get all of the people that are key decision makers in that account and the only way that you're ever going to be able to get all of those people in a room on a regular basis is to deliver value from a business standpoint. They are not going to sit in there and listen to you to say, I booked, I, I blocked a thousand threats this month and our sandbox picked up X. Right.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I don't even know what any of these things are. Agreed where if you can sit in a, uh, in a meeting like that and you can say Zscaler had a direct impact on your ESG score by X amount, um, by moving to off, you know, out of your data centers into your cloud environments, and by us being able to speed it up, we have, you know, saved X in terms of CO2 emissions.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That stuff that people find impossible to realize.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that, uh, all of these executives are actually compensated in their bonus on.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: That's the first thing then constantly being able to. Being an extension of someone's team and being able to say to them over during the deployment. In the first six months, we have been able to consolidate these eight tool, eight tools down to three tools. The total cost of ownership of these six tools that we've removed is X. And over the next six months, you can expect it to be Y as we consolidate down to one. Right. Then there's an efficiency play and, you know, the story goes on and all of this stuff. But what's really important is, is that before you go and run these business value assessments with these customers and you've managed to create a meeting environment that these people want to join and find value in. So, as you said earlier, it's very easy to cancel, you know, vendor meetings because they've got other businesses to run. Right. Um, it's so important to have agreement after you've landed the first deal on what success looks like for that customer, like Mr. M. Ciudad, thank you for your investment. It means a huge amount and we're really excited about the partnership. How are you going to measure what success looks like? And, um, can you help us, um, as a team, agree a set of criteria that we can measure ourselves against to ensure that we are delivering the value that we've promised you.

Speaker B: You've got this mega, exciting opportunity. I mean, I'm sat here kind of like feeling a bit like, oh, Mal, could I get back on the tools with Marina? Hire me. Because it is exciting. It's exact, you know, for me, it's like, you know, I always liken things to sport. And, you know, the way you're talking about what you're doing at the moment, the. Those you're at the front line of what you're doing at the moment is it's like, it's like at the top level of sales and if it was a sport, you know, you're in the biggest arena selling for the best team, you know, playing with the best people kind of thing, which is really cool.

Speaker A: Yeah. But like, to go on your sports analogy.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Is, um, like when, when people talk about, about. When people talk about our company, for example, and growing like shareholder value for Zscaler or whatever it is. Right. That's like saying, if I said to you and came in here, it's like, I just want to like grow the top line of my business and get to X revenue, um, which will be an X growth. Right. That for me is you're working for the fans, right. If you're, if you're running a sports team. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The shareholders are the fans.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, in the stadium. Right. And you're like, your, your, your mission is around driving for them.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: If you care about your hands, what happens to your teeth. Yeah. Right. So my, my view on that is, um, everything that you have to do in these organizations is to focus on your team, how to create high performance environments, how to coach people to play better on the pitch, how to find development areas where you're seeing things that people haven't seen. How can you change their diet? Like all of these things that professional athletes do all the time. Time. And if you focus on the team and their performance on the pitch, then the fans sort themselves out, right. They can, they get excited, their results come, they're all like, you know, all of that. I mean, maybe it's not the best analogy.

Speaker B: No, I think it's a good. I was gonna say I was, I was laying you up there to introduce the fact that you're looking for great people to join the team. And I feel like I was, I thought I was doing quite a good layup and I felt like you took it even better and made it even more compelling. So what should people do if they've heard this and they think, you know, this is exactly the sort of thing, you know, resonate. What I said, it's exactly. Yeah. The sort of role I want to do. They want to. How do they get. Well, maybe I shouldn't say how should they get your attention because you perhaps want to see organically what, what approach they should do, but.

Speaker A: Oh, look, I'm super open. I have LinkedIn. This is, this is a tool that we all use. Contact me. It probably has my mobile number or get in touch with our careers team. Um, but yes, open to any conversations and anyone who disagrees with anything that I say as well. Yeah, I'm like fully open for. Yeah, a conversation with anyone.

Speaker B: Coachability and self awareness. Yeah. Well, well, thank you so, so much, Marina. I feel like, you know, when I'm doing these, these, these sessions, I, I feel like I'm always learning and I feel like I just learn an absolute ton. And the other thing I felt was I was like, wow, that's a sound bite. That's a sound bite. That's a sou people that have maybe heard a sound bite and tuned in for the full episode. I think you'll be at this point very glad you did because I think we just learned and took in a whole ton of wealth of wisdom from you. So thank you so much for joining

Speaker A: me and for the opportunity.

Speaker B: Cool. Thank you very much.