Masters of MEDDICC - Authenticy & Trust with Richard Dufty - Episode #18

Speaker A: The whole premise of Flywheel is there is no one silver bullet. And I think when we all acknowledge that and stop thinking that by just doing the latest, greatest thing that it's going to work. It's just good old fashioned doing the right things, doing them properly and doing them together and having them aligned. And that's the concept of the flywheel. Where we do this well, it will lead to that. We do that well, it's going to automatically lead to that. It's that authenticity and trust. And I think as a sales profession, when we start and live and end there and truly in your heart to invest in that relationship, understand their problems, deliver for them in the past, make them realize that I'm here, I understand you, I get you. And I'm, I'm here to solve problems. I'm not here to sell you something. I'm here to solve your problems. M think a great analogy to think about. It doesn't matter who. If you have a player with record high points, they can go home and feel good about themselves. But I wouldn't, I'd be uh, like, no, we lost as a team.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, and if we are not winning as a team, we're not winning.

Speaker B: Welcome to Masters of Medic M Got a very special episode today. It is our first ever repeat guest episode with Mr. Richard Dufty who has recently been appointed as Chief Revenue Officer at Team Cymru. Hey Richard, how are you doing?

Speaker A: Andy, in person? I'm doing amazing, mate. Yeah.

Speaker B: I think like we've met before in London, but this is when we, where we've worked together before, uh, on podcasts and Medicon, it was always remote. So it's actually great to do this in person.

Speaker A: It is, it is. And to be here in London. And uh, it's fantastic.

Speaker B: Yeah. You look very fresh considering how traveled you are. And I know you've had a very, very busy few days of great meetings and events and stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah, very busy. Um, I'd like to think you sometimes get used to it, but I'm not going to lie. The uh, the great flat whites and coffee here in London, uh, have, have, have been assisting.

Speaker B: Well, as an Australian, that's quite the compliment because Australia is of course known as being at the top tier when it comes to coffee.

Speaker A: Coming to London is like, um, a little taste of home, you know, as much as the banter between the Brits and the Aussies. It's kind of like when we're together, you know, we have some fun with it. But uh, no, the coffee's Been fantastic.

Speaker B: Just a bit more chilly. Yes.

Speaker A: A little bit more chilly than Southern California.

Speaker B: Yes. Or. Yeah. Or Sydney. Yeah, indeed. So great. So you've got this awesome new role. I've been, I mean very. You know, we were talking when you sort of knew that you were going there and you were very excited and it seems like you've really landed at a great place.

Speaker A: Yeah, look, I think, you know, we've been chatting how, I mean the markets over the last couple of years have been very strange. Um, and I took a long time to really look into various opportunities out there and was just really excited about Tim Cymru and what they were doing and really interesting organization. One of those organizations, that 15, 16 year old organization with some of the biggest brands on earth, government, you know, some of the biggest Fortune 500 companies from Walmart and Microsoft and Apple, et cetera, um, that people hadn't heard of and you know, bootstrapped from day one. Profitable M. Phenomenal leadership, original leadership, stable. Um, a lot of the things we all, we all look for. Uh, and I think in this particular market especially, um, an organization that has a must have solution versus a nice to have. So yeah.

Speaker B: How are you finding that responsibility, um, of profitability, uh, as compared to being in funded organizations?

Speaker A: You know, it's really interesting. Um, I'm not gonna say I'm probably the only. I'm probably part of a smaller group of CROs, I think over the last five years where um, I, I think, I think for five years I've been saying we're, the markets are growing too, too much, that we're expecting too much. And um, you end up maybe getting there. And we did with many of the companies I've been at, that you're familiar with. Um, but at what cost? And I think we're only now seeing the unraveling and the impact of that cost and the inability to continue doing that and the roller coaster impact that has on team members, on hiring, on unfortunately layoffs, on just that lack of predictability. Um, one of the things I love about Tim Cymru, uh, and our board and we're supported by phenomenal PE firm out of Boston called Audax is just the, the sensibility, you know, the. Let's go build this company, let's go continue to build and scale and build something great, but let's build it with a sense of reality. You know, let's stretch, you know, let's, let's achieve what we can achieve, but let's be sensible about it and let's make the right spending decisions, hiring decisions. And you know, I don't know if frugal is the right word, but, but it's, it's common sense and it's sensible and it's, it's remembering that a dollar here could be spent over here. And let's just be more thoughtful about what we, you know, how we're running the business.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I totally relate with that. I feel like one of the things I have this kind of thing that I probably shouldn't say publicly on a podcast because it will get some people upset with me, but I often liken, um, the world of startups and raising money and VCs to a bit like playing a computer game where you're playing with the cheat mode enabled for money, you know, And I don't know if you've ever played those computer games, like those simulation games like SimCity or something like that, where you can have as much money as you want, but you behave very, very differently, very irresponsibly most of the time to, Compared to when you're actually really kind of playing those games, knowing that, you know, you've got to bring in more than you spend. Um, which, the fact that we're even kind of talking about it like that as being like a thing that's kind of the alternative of kind of having a focus on profitability for a business is kind of always made me sort of amused me, to say the least.

Speaker A: Well, and I think unfortunately there are a, uh, lot of folk out there that have only grown up in this world, right? So if you're someone that entered the tech market in the last decade or so, that's the world you've grown up in and that's your, your normal. Right. Whereas you know, for those of us that, you know, pre, you know, I guess kind of call it pre 2012ish when might not have been free money, but it was definitely still grow at all cost mentality. Um, and in the early days I think that it actually was okay because there are less companies and they were truly growing at all costs, but they were actually growing. And so, you know, you look at even now, some of those companies that have been around that long, right? The Octas, the Hubspots, you know, they have been in a position where they're able to move a lever and bring it back. A lot of other companies aren't in that position. I am very worried about a lot of companies and the people at those companies because I, I think the writing's on the wall. I don't think we've actually seen the worst of it to come yet. I don't think, I don't think we've seen the worst of the impact. So I think we're starting to see some improvements in buyer conditions and economic conditions to a degree. Um, I don't think interest rates and all those things are in great shape and I don't think they're going to be for the rest of this year. But I don't, I think what we haven't seen the, unfortunately the worst impact of is the companies that need to go raise again. And it's not even just raising anymore at down rounds. The money is just not going to be available and you're going to go from growing at all cost to not being able to invest in just even the minimum viable things for the business.

Speaker B: Uh, and it's a little bit like it's not just that you are running on a high amount of fuel, if money is a fuel, um, and you're running out of fuel. It's like that the engine you have for the vehicle being your company is very, is burning a lot of fuel. And I know this is probably a silly example but I think it's very representative of what you're talking about and the, the world as it used to be which was I had a colleague in my last role, last place I worked, um, who was a solution architect. So he, you know, he certainly didn't have any budget, he certainly didn't have any sort of say in any technical decision, uh, software decisions for the company. But the company in question that creates some you know like a document types productivity tool, um, sent him some AirPods with his name embroidered on the case um, because he took a demo and he only had to spend 50 minutes on the demo with a person. And I know that's like a very sort of small snapshot of something but if that is, and I still see it on, you know I can't open Instagram without someone trying to um, sell, give uh, me a yeti, you know, flask through to a container um, to take a demo. And it's like well if, if you'll spend, if your cost is say $50 just to get someone to buy at a demo, it's not looking good. Not to mention this is really where I really get a be in my bonnet about this. Anybody whose time is worth a yeti FL is not the person you want to be having a conversation with about buying your enterprise software.

Speaker A: And that's where it really gets me. And that's where I've always had the debates internally when people want to do that and I won't mention tools that do that, but I sit there and I say, um, what's your asp? Oh, it's $120,000. Okay, so this yeti mug or a $10 Starbucks card. Um, look, I'm sure, again, I'm sure there's a place for all of that and I think it depends on your ASP and your sales motion. Um, if you're targeting a small business, maybe, but yeah, and I think that's part of that. Look, you know, we said before we started recording, uh, I think this is the hardest selling environment in history. Um, and history in my own history at least. Right. But you know, I started in, uh, 2001 was my first outside sales role. Um, and you know, excuse me, you know, it was at the end of obviously the dot com bust and stuff, so I just missed that. So, you know, preface that. Um, but jfc, a whole bunch of other things. Um, and I think a lot of the reason is there's just so much noise out there. And so when you hear these, you know, you know, I just started the new, this new role 2ish months ago. You can imagine how many LinkedIn messages I've got, how many emails I've got, oh, congratulations on your new role as CRO la la la. And just all the, all these things that I'm being offered to join a call. It's, um, Sales is hard, marketing is hard and I think we need to acknowledge that more. And instead of just trying to keep throwing things at it and which then becomes internally you start having a little bit of conflict because everyone's like, well, why aren't they doing that and why. This is really hard, but let's not keep doing things the same way. Right? Definition of insanity. And I think go to market's been broken for a decade. Um, and I say this over and over and over again. And you know me, I'm an optimist. I'm a pretty, I'd like to think positive, high energy guy, but we've got to acknowledge and then be positive about it. You know, acknowledge the problem and then talk about as an industry, how we fix it. Because I keep seeing things every, everywhere I turn. You know, for the last 912 months I was doing a lot of advising and I was working with a lot of VCs, um, you know, founders, CEOs at, uh, companies across the US and Australia. It was just pattern recognition. I mean, everyone was doing the exact same thing. Weren't not identifying their ICP or I'd start using the IPP is, as you. As you say, um, you know, not really understand the buyer Persona, not hiring the right people because they didn't know the right people to hire. And. But when you keep making these same mistakes, we don't expect anything different. And then people go out and get the wrong customers. And then we wonder why a year later we have a. Not we, but people have a 25% churn rate or things like this. And then it's just this, this, you know, vicious kind of doom loop, if you will.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's great. I always think with this. I do concur with you about the Go to Market being in a state where it's not working as it should. You know, we talk about Go to market being some sort of group of. Sort of heads of departments coming together and sort of pulling in the same direction. I very, very rarely see that is the norm. That's normally the exception when you have a team pulling together. And for me, it all comes down to kind of what you said in pattern recognition, that everybody's in their own lane, their own sil. Looking at their own things the way they've always done them. And some of that comes from expectation. Because if you think about Go to Market being the sort of positioning that, you know, invites the customer into engaging with you through to, you know, how you book that into a meeting, through to how you then start selling, closing, delivering, then, you know, selling more value in the upsells and renewals, everything that come thereafter. Everybody's kind of zoomed in on their lane. And what you have is a scenario where people aren't actually looking at the one thing they should be looking at, which is the customer themselves. And working backwards from what does our best customer look like? How can we find more of our best customers? The ones that get the most value from us, the ones that love us the most, the ones that are the fastest to see our point of view and therefore buy our technology solution the fastest, they're the happiest in doing so, all that kind of stuff. And it's. It's not that hard. It really isn't that hard to do it like that. But if you, if you start over here, which is like, okay, well, how can we get the customer's attention? How we've always done it, Rather than like, what is our. What is our, uh, what really works and what do our customers really look for? And I think the difference is, is it really comes down to quantity versus Quality. If you're looking over here, everyone's like, we need more MQLs. More MQLs. And that's where it starts. And it's like the top of the funnel is the M MQL and then you go from there. Rather than we need more quality customers. And if we work backwards from that, then we're going to, I think it's going to cascade down and all of a sudden everybody's going to be more in step, more focus on the same goal, which is that, uh, great, great customer. But it's hard. It's hard. I don't make it sound easy.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, well, I think, well, I mean, I actually agree what you said a second ago. I actually don't think it's hard. I think it's, it's harder to do and we don't do it. But that doesn't mean it's, it's hard. It's like dieting isn't hard. Going to the gym isn't hard. It's. But it's that separation between intent, motivation and execution. Right? But I, I even wonder if in a lot of organizations there is the aligned intent and motivation. And I think the best organizations we see is when the leadership team comes together and is driven by the same incentives that have the same goals, where it drives all the way down to compensation across different roles. And are, uh, people rowing in separate boats or the same boat? You know, I love the boys in boys in the boat analogy, right? It's no that there isn't, you know, eight people in a boat. There's a boat, it's the boy in the boat, right? And, and I think having that mentality of we are all in this together and I've always agreed with the mentality of marketing can't hit their numbers and sales fail or vice versa. Sales shouldn't be able to hit their number, but marketing didn't hit theirs, right? It's, we should only all be excited when we all hit the number. It's not okay if an individual sales rep hits their number and he's like, oh, look at me, look at me. Especially when you're in a small size organization or a team is only hitting their number. We are Team Cymru. You know, I always use the sporting shirt analogy, right? It's your name's on the back, the logos on the front, the emblems on the front, the team's on the front. You play for the team. And if we are not winning as a team, we're not winning. You know, no one cares if, you know, I'm a Lakers fan. No one cares if LeBron scored 42 points last night, but Lakers just got knocked out. Yeah. So who cares? No one's going to remember how many points LeBron got in the last game. When we lost three of the four games to Denver we lost. Everyone's going home unhappy. And that's, you know, as I speak out loud, I think a great analogy to think about. It doesn't matter who. If you have a player with record high points, they can go home and feel good about themselves. But I, I wouldn't. I'd be like, no, we lost as a team.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That's why we're trying to popularize what we call the $1 behind rule. Have I told you about this?

Speaker A: No, you haven't, mate.

Speaker B: No. You'll like this. So this actually organically came in a, uh, job interview for an ae, myself, head of sales, and, uh, our, uh, head of the SCR team were interviewing final stage, this candidate. And the candidate said, you know, any question? We said, any questions? Said, yeah, what's the culture like here at this company? And my, um, colleague, Dan Taylor, um, answered. And he said, you know, it's like any kind of sales culture. Everyone, it's competitive. Everybody wants to win. But he said, the thing that I think is different here is Whoever is number one wants whoever is number two to just be $1 behind them. And I think that's exactly kind of the thing you're talking about there. Because you want to win. You want winners in your team, but you want whoever is winning. They want whoever's just behind them to be just behind them. They get the glory. But as a team, you're winning. It means you're number one. But your colleagues, your peers, they're winning just as much as you. Just as much. They're not losing to competition. So the money's coming back in. The success is there. You get the momentum that comes. And that's why we, yeah, we love the $1 behind rule.

Speaker A: For that, I'm going to use that. Yeah. Look, and when people really understand and think about it, you know, again, if you really are just this number one and. But the rest of your team is so far behind, that's going to catch up as a company, because it probably means that your teammates are losing deals to competition, which means the next time you go into a deal, your competition saying, well, we beat them. They're not saying they beat you, they beat the company. So the more we can all be winning together. Right. Ships High tides. Like, let's all. Let's all go together, right? And it's funny, you know, I was just thinking about, you know, what we're talking about a second ago. Um, we have a new chief marketing officer, Cynthia. And she's fantastic. And I loved the first meeting. It was. There were all these things she was saying. And for the first time, you know, in a meeting with a cmo, I shut up. Because she was saying things like, well, but. But who's the champion in that? I'm like, okay. Little note. I'm m. Like, okay, well, okay, that's okay. Then five seconds later, someone said something about the number of leads that we had in inverted commas. She stopped, she looked up at the board and she said that they're not leads. They're like, that's just a bunch of activity. And I'm sitting there. I was like, uh, am I being pranked? I mean, this is. I was pinching myself. It was fantastic. But there's an example where when you. That's the only way it's ever going to work. Otherwise, uh, everything will always look like it will work for a quarter or two and eventually it will unravel. But again, I think that comes with, uh, it all has to happen at the top. I mean, it has to. Leadership has to come together and be aligned on that and create one team. And then that team, it has to be able to roll up and down, you know, across the organization.

Speaker B: And that takes you back to that point I was making about the idea of working back from the customer. Because if you're looking, you're saying, not just what does a successful customer of ours look like? What does a good customer of ours look like? But what is the path to getting that good customer? And we work backwards from there. That is, you know, that is for another lens. That's medic. Right? That's how medic was created. From looking at, you know, why do we win, why do we lose, and why do you slip? So it's like it's reverse engineering success to a degree. And to your conversation, your point there with Cynthia, uh, your cmo, um, if you work backwards without medic, you're going to have a lot of like, oh, well, we had that person, remember John, he was, you know, John. John was the cfo. And John really put like, you know, the brakes on it. So what we should do in future is we should maybe have some sort of strategy for John. Yeah, but is it a strategy for CFOs, or is it. Is it because he was a CFO? Or is this because that was like how they said, you see where I'm going with this, right? All of a sudden it's more complicated and it's very, very hard for you to repeat that with, um, with a go to market sort of strategy. Whereas if you say, well, who was the economic buyer? And they say, well, this time it was John. And they say, well, what about the other times? Well, actually, yeah, the other one we're looking at was Sally, and then it was Jessica. And all of a sudden you've gone, okay, what do they all have in common? Other. All CFOs. Okay, so we can say that we have a, uh, common scenario where the CFO is going to be economic buyer. So let's, you know, you and Cynthia then can work and strategize. How do you make sure that you're not just engaging with those CFOs and those economic buyers? You're doing it early. But then you might also notice that not all economic buyers are CFOs. You might have a CISO or someone like that, and all of a sudden you're kind of profiling people much more. Uh, you're able to put a label on what kind of Persona they are and then build a strategy off the back of it.

Speaker A: No? Agreed. And you know, I think our old friend that, that I've mentioned before, Nick at Snapchat, right? Nick river, um, you know, one of his favorite sayings that I love is the go slow to go fast. One of the other things I think every company needs to do is stop what they're doing right now and pause and go back and start again. And so, you know, Cynthia joined only a couple of weeks after me, so we've been there a couple of months together. We are pausing and spending all of our time right now on understanding, you know, going back, looking at the, the wins, the losses, understanding talking to the team, who are the buyers, and we're rewriting it from the ground up. What's the problem we're solving, right? Understanding, you know, what the, the market differentiate differentiation looks like, right? The old three questions everyone asks, right? Why for us, why. Why threat intelligence? Why now? Why Tim Cymru? And you know, you hear all different iterations of that. But, but there essentially ends up coming to what problem are we solving, right?

Speaker B: Who.

Speaker A: Who are we solving it for? And how can we also help demonstrate why we solve it better than anyone else? And what was great was, uh, we had our chief product officer waseem turn around and say, this is everything I'VE been trying to do as well. And he's like, I love using Medic M all the way back to product, he said, because if I'm not building a product that truly solves a pain that you guys can go and implicate, then it doesn't matter what product we build. And this is where I think everyone has to just pause and stop. And it might be paused for a day. Pause for a. And just do a check on that. Uh, have we got that? Or are we. Have we all just been running so fast for the last X years that we haven't stopped and really understand, understood. Who are ICPs, who are IPPS? Who's the buyer Persona? And I think I'm encouraged by it. But I think over the last couple of years, a lot of this has turned into buzzwords, though. I'm getting a little bit nervous where I hear people starting, uh, excited that people are using the right words. How much, how deep they can really go and do they really understand the intent? I'm not quite sure, but at least we're going in the right direction. But I think everyone's got to really just sit down. I also think we overcomplicate things. I really do. Even we were sitting in a room, I was lucky enough, the team came down and spent some time with me in Southern California. Last week, we got to a point where we stopped and we said, are we over complicating this? What's the problem we solve? What do we do better than anyone else? Because we had a bunch up that we all stopped and we looked at, it went, you could put any security company's name on this, and it looks the same right now. And it was something that I had said back at Arkos as well, where we, at one point we were just like, this is what we do. You know, we do this better than anyone else. Let's just call it what it is. And then that fed over to the demo deck and the pitch deck and it's, let's stop talking about all this other stuff. Let's bang hit them in the eyes right up front. This is what we do. This is what we do better than anyone else. And this is why it's going to benefit you. Is this something that you'd be interested in?

Speaker B: I love that. Yeah. And as we've talked about, we've been working on this program to basically extend Medic to be a value framework. And that's been over three years in the making. I've been thinking about that as, like, taking up a lot of my thoughts for a long time and I definitely had a realization of where I'm looking at how other providers kind of build frameworks and how they have these products that they help organizations to come up with value propositions and value messaging and all that kind of good stuff. I'm looking at going, okay, well that's how they do it. So ours has to be sort of, if we're going to do this and win, uh, where they're trying to compete with us, then we have to be at the same level. The thing that I quickly came to realize is that one of the things that a lot of those organizations are doing, it's their business model is making you reliant on them and so that you, it has to have a certain, uh, layer of complexity because that's their business model is they survive by you having to rely on flying them in to help you in those meetings you had. Whereas our business model is completely different. Our business model is we want to give the great go to market teams, leaders, all the CMOs, CROs, through to the enablement teams and all their great talented people want to give them the tools to be able to use their expertise. No one knows their business better than them. And so actually to your point, simplicity over complicating. It's something that I saw was happening and to the point where for me, and there's, obviously there's, there's depth behind this, but when I'm thinking about aligning go to market teams to go to market together, it's really about this. It's like to your point, it's where have we done this before in a manner that we can show to this prospective customer that is going to be relevant to them. So we are straight away getting into, we're not having to do, you know, interrogation, discovery. We're able to just say, hey, does this, does this like, I think this is, I think this is relevant to you. Does this resonate? This is a great story of an organization we think similar to you. Does that resonate? Great. Stage two is let's see what this would look like for you. Let's put together how we could, if we were to deliver the same value as we have for that organization that you just confirmed was really relevant, let's do it for you. And then if we, if that looks good enough, if that looks, if that excites you, then let's make those our targets for when we work together. Let's make those the KPIs. So you go, here's where we've done it before. Here's what it will look like if we did it for you, and if we work together, here's what we'll both be aiming towards as our targets. And then the beauty then of course is once you win the customer and you deliver that value, it comes the story for the next customer. And it's a triangle and it just goes around. The more you do it, the faster it spins, the more relevant stories you're going to have, the more success stories you're going to have. And the beauty of that is, uh, those three points of the triangle help every single go to market department. So positioning, marketing, messaging, they can talk about how they've done it relevantly before through to the SDRs, grabbing the meeting through to the channel, talking to the partners, having a really succinct story through to obviously sales. But then of course it genuinely hands over to the post sales team, which is not something we've seen before. What we've seen before is you have these little silos and typically they don't talk to each other. So marketing does features and benefits. The, uh, SDRs use Bant. The sales team might use Medic. And then there's kind of like insert other, you know, command of the message, value, selling, gap selling, etc. All very, very like proficient like that. It's hard to fault them in that silo. But then the customer comes along, buys, and then there's this big gap. And then we look at QBRs and NPS scores. There's no like passing, uh, like at, uh, best there's like a translation. It's like. Well, in Medic, when we talk about pain, we're talking about negative consequences now or whatever the new thing is. Whereas like Medic just goes all the way through. It's beautiful.

Speaker A: Well, so a couple of comments. Um, one I loved you just spent a couple of minutes talking about Medic without even using any of the words. Yeah, and, and the reason I love that, Andy, is I, I think people, and I get it by the way, I, I think people are intimidated by Medic. I think people are intimidated by new frameworks and a couple like, there's always a couple of big messages I try to get across to new teams when I, you know, walk in. First of all, Medic isn't this big scary framework. It's just common sense. I remind people the best sellers have been doing it all their life without realizing they're doing it. It's just now, you know, that's my favorite feedback pocketing. Yeah, I'm always like, oh, wait on. Yeah, a good rep will go. Oh, I've actually been doing this, uh, for 20 years. That's right. So now let's just all put it under the right, you know, terminology and common language and things like that second that you just said. Um, and as you know, what I'm excited about here at Team Cymru is we are rolling out medic med pick across from start to finish. Um, and it was funny where we're about to implement, um, gainsight on the customer success side.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So I was on with Nick Meadow the other day, having a great chat with him. We worked together back in the day at Symantec. Um, one of the most gregarious, phenomenal leaders I've, I think I've ever seen and met. He, you know, watching, watching his LinkedIn. Um, yeah. Biggest Swifty fan I think in the world. Nick. Nick Meta. Um, if you didn't know that. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I think he knows every word to every song. It's, it's, it is, it's in, it's very special. Um, but one of the things we were talking about and it was interesting, I was asking his feedback on something that I'm about to do or in fact I just did and he said he's seeing it become more common, which is I'm combining our pre sales technical organization and our post sales technical organization. And I'm putting it under, I've just put under one leader and it's someone that's been with our business. Scott, great guy who's been with our business for some time. And, and the concept there is when you start thinking about leveraging medic as a kind of underlying architecture or framework across the customer life cycle. And you've heard me talk about my flywheel concept and everything is now what you have and gain sites that the platform will use for it. But now what you're doing is you've got the team that's responsible for helping understand and build the technical champion relationship. That's responsible. I think ses, architects, whatever you know, you call them, one of the most critical roles in the organization. Right. For any enterprise salesperson, you ask them, you know, phone a friend who's the most important person in your life. It's my, my se, my architect type thing. Right. But think about it. Now we've got an organization, this pre sales post sales Org that is responsive, responsible for capturing and delivering, building the poc, the pov, building that out. And now it's the same organization. And it was funny last night here in London I was on, had dinner with, with one of our great post sales, um, team members, client success team members, um, Philippe. And now you've got the same group that there is no surprises, you know, and every organization, you know, he shared with me last night. But every organization I've been at, you get the poor team that gets thrown the ball, but no one told them the rules or where we're going or what we're doing or what was, what's the value here? What were we meant to deliver? So I think as we start just thinking about things a little differently as we start implementing medpick across the customer journey, which is a circle, it's not this flat line anymore, right? It's not, it's not start here on, on the, you know, horizontal play all the way down to here. It's, it's a circle. And so when you think about putting medic around the circle, you start thinking about different roles that you could start leveraging with that as well. And I, I think it starts getting exciting.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. And it really, it really fills a lot of those gaps that exist that create the problems we talked about with the go to market before. You know, you can look anywhere. But like one of my, one of my favorite use cases, um, would be again for your head of product, which is this idea of now, as you correctly put, if it's, if it's a loop and it is like a customer cycle loop and it's, you know, it's those three points of the triangle again. Is that all? Now for the first time ever, without some sort of additional framework that no one really is invested in because it's not their core responsibility because they're not product people in sales, marketing, you know, uh, post sales for the first time now, we have a way of measuring, uh, monitoring what parts of the product are being carried through. So if we're now saying up front at the top of the triangle, this is, hey, this is an example of a story that we think is going to be relevant to you, Mr. And Mrs. Prospect. Uh, because here's the pain. You know, we love the term, um, uh, without and with a lot of other, um, frameworks, um, and things they talk about before and after and things like that, which is okay. But it does sort of suggest that, you know, it's a bit like it's once and done. But I love the idea of making that prospective customer think about this is what life is like without us and this is what life's like with us. And for what you were saying, uh, earlier about what is it that we do? And you know, you've got that sort of all those Venn diagrams of different providers that overlap with each other. What is the one thing that without us would be the state you're in and what's the one, you know, what's the state with us you'd have? So you can start to then say from a product perspective is what are the, what are the things when we, when we talk to a customer about it, uh, and we say without us and with us you get, you know, you're from here to what are the things that they always go, yeah, that's exactly like, let's take the next meeting. What are the things that we stick on the wall and they never get the next meeting. And we, you know, as you know, we class these as M1s and M2s. So what are the M1s, which are the customer stories that just never make it to an M M2 and what are the M M2s that if we, you know, the customer's never interested in making them into an M3, which is the goals they're going for? What are those things? And um, vi opposite of course. What's the thing? If ever we get in front of a customer and we talk about this customer story, this use case, it always goes through. It always goes through. And then we can start to, as a product team, start to measure, you know, why are we winning in decision criteria? What's the thing that when we have it in the decision criteria, always win or like when we lost that opportunity, why did we lose? What was missing from either our technical decision criteria, which is where we most closely look. But often as we know, so many, so many products are uh, not commoditized, but there's so much crossover now that you can do the technical with lots of your rivals. The thing that often makes a difference is going to be the relationship or economic decision criteria. But if we're not really calling those things out, we really can't learn from our mistakes.

Speaker A: Well, and also how, um, what are the add on areas? You know? So for example, right now again we're seeing our CPO and Dan, we're deciding on the integrations, right? Because we're like, our product's phenomenal, it provides a lot of value. But how do we help our customers use it, digest it in a way that it's better and easier for them? And we don't want to live out on an island as phenomenal of value as we provide. Not everyone wants to have 54 different products open. So, for example. But what's great, again, is the way that we're making those decisions internally is empirical and talking to our customers. Right. What are the products that you use? We're launching a great new product next week at rsa, for example. And we, we made the decision on the. The first kind of products we're going to integrate based through the user testing. Not. Not us sitting in a room saying, oh, why don't we integrate into this? Or why do we need to integrate? You know, And I've been in organizations where you've had those conversations or you're just not having them at all. Whereas now it's. Well, it's not just implicating the pain and we're solving it, but how do we also make your life easier? And will it improve the decision criteria? By being able to demonstrate. And by the way, yes, you can just have this ingested into. Do you want splunk? Do you want tines? Like, what's valuable for you and listening and getting that feedback without realizing that's product Making a decision based around the Medic framework.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker A: Or at least and maybe both. Helping the team then differentiate with the Medic framework by doing that.

Speaker B: Yes, yes, indeed. And from, like, the perspective of. I'll give you an anecdote. Uh, the last company I worked at, we were a US Headquart unicorn. Like, you know, all that kind of classical stuff. Um, and the SaaS ran on AWS, but we didn't have EU localized servers. And that was a problem for Vodafone, who basically, without telling the whole story, basically said to us, if you had this, we would buy from you, but you don't have it, so we're going to buy from your competitors. Like, as black and white as that, uh, there was no sort of gray here. It was to the point of, like, can you not. They weren't arrogant. I don't want to give that impression. But they were kind of like saying, you know, we're Vodafone. We're kind of like one of the biggest telcos in the world. Um, probably a good logo for you. We're not trying to nickel and dime you. We're going to spend a lot of money. You're our vendor of choice. But we can't, because this will just never get through security. All our data protect, all that stuff. Right. Because the GDPR and all that nonsense, if, uh, the servers aren't here. And, um, what happened was we were obviously, I'm running Amir. I'm going to us and being like, you know, um, this is probably worth doing. We're gonna have to do this at some point. So this is. If you're looking for, like the one to make it worthwhile, this is it. And the response from, uh, I think it was the cto, or might be VP of Engineering, I think it was, was like, I don't need it. And I'm like, I think they do. Like, you know, um. But the point to this anecdote is that, um, we were anecdotally able to point to many other opportunities we had lost because we thought that that was a thing, but because we weren't using MEDPIC to the level that we aspire our customers to do it, where we're actually measuring what's the decision criteria for this customer. In this case, it's EU servers is a technical requirement. And there's also a relationship decision criteria element there of how invested are you in EU if you don't have servers here kind of thing. It's a poor signal in the world of. Of how we see our customers is you'll be able to go, not only have we lost seven deals this year because of that, but that equates to this much volume of revenue. Um, which. The untold part of that is, what would the value of the momentum of winning Vodafone have been to win other telcos and all that kind of stuff. So having that common language to be able to pick out just m. I've sort of zoomed in on decision criteria. But it's the same for marketing teams who are spending loads of money on advertising, uh, on keywords for things that they may generate leads, but they don't generate sales. Right. Your point about what Cynthia was looking at earlier. So it's a. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think that's a. That's tough for marketing departments, right? Is. Yeah. The last few years, everyone wants to be a thought leader. No. Well, yeah. And again, back to the words. Right. Like, uh, the intent is right. But what I've personally actually seen is you get a lot of companies being thought leaders, but it doesn't generate into sales.

Speaker B: Sales.

Speaker A: So, you know, the amount of, you know, companies, websites and products that I download because I think they're phenomenal content. But I've never taken a sales call or, uh, I'm not a buyer, I'm not a target buyer for them. But. And so it's. And again, back to. Every time I say everything, uh, something these days, I always preface with this is hard. This isn't an accusation. This Isn't a we're better than you or you're better than us. This is a can we all just recognize that? It feels like every couple of years we have different buzzwords, right? We go from thought leadership to ABM to intent data to PLG to this to that and back to the reason why I love the flywheel concept. And you know, I called my business Flywheel is, you know, back to Jim Collins, right? The whole premise of Flywheel is there is no one silver bullet. And I think when we all acknowledge that and stop thinking that by just doing the latest, greatest thing, that it's going to work. Work. It's just the good old fashioned doing the right things, doing them properly and doing them together and having them aligned. And that's the concept of the flywheel. Where we do this well, it will lead to that. We do that well, it's going to automatically lead to that. You know, I think a lot of people don't, don't realize the concept of the flywheel. It's not A, it's not a might in a true flywheel concept. It's automatic. It's a given that A will lead to B, will lead to C, will lead to D. But yeah, again, it's hard.

Speaker B: Well, it's funny you mentioned a term there, uh, which was just a sort of a throwaway descriptive term you use, but I'm going to zoom in on it a little bit because, um, it's something I've been thinking about a lot, which is you just mentioned old fashioned. So I've been buying.

Speaker A: I'm getting old maybe so.

Speaker B: No, no, no, it's a good thing. No, don't get me wrong. Um, I've bought every single book I could find that is over 100 years old about sex. And there's quite a few of them. I was surprised. I was surprised. Not. You shouldn't be because it's the oldest trade and all that sort of stuff. But I bought it because there's a couple of reasons. One is that I'm just a geek, so there's a part of me that loves the history of sales and that kind of stuff. But there's also this nonsense narrative that um, again, thought leaders in our industry, the LinkedIn gurus, like to peddle, which is that medic is old and therefore it's ineffective. And my point here is, is that I'm going to go through these books and I'm going to find all of the advice and find any of it that isn't like, applicable today. Because like so far, I've looked for a few of them. That it's all just rock solid advice. Of course, contextually, sometimes it's wrong, but it's the, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's super relevant advice, it's super good advice. And I just, I think the reason is. And it's not, it's not complicated at all. It's really obvious. It's is as much as people try to, for their own interests, try to state that people buy for different reasons or customers are different, they're really not. They're just looking for value. That's it. They're not looking for the cheapest price. They're not looking for the. They're looking for the most value for money, which might be the fastest to implement, the time to value. Everyone has their own reasons, but that's why it's so important to get to what value is for the customer. And selling, professional selling has always been about getting as close as you can to understanding how you can bring the most value to the customer. And that's it. And so when you're saying what you said there, I'm totally in agreement, but it's so sort of in line with just thinking about the customer, the customer first, and going back from there in

Speaker A: a really authentic way too. I think that's the difference. When I look back over my career, people that I've looked up to, salespeople that I look up to, the best ones are authentic as well. They're not looking for the latest gimmick, the latest trick. Look, like we said, I've not read the books you just mentioned, but my gut, just from having read some old books or I was listening to a podcast the other day that was talking about, um, uh, what was his name? Zig. And, you know, listening some of his old tapes. And so I watched a short YouTube and again, the style's different, the time's different, but the online message is still the same. It's how do I help someone get what they want to do done? Whether it's in their personal life, in their job, you know, and along the way, technology will change. A fax machine will come out, a thing called email will come out. We have ABM will have this. But if you rely on that, I think what we're all seeing over the last few years, if you rely on that, that will go away, but the underlying principles will never go away. You know, so everyone, everyone went to all the tools and tech, and that was great when no one was doing it because you stood out. But now no one opens emails anymore. No one does this, no one does that. And so cutting through that noise with the latest tricks, look, hey, I mean, technology, yes, it's great. AI, uh, will be, is the next one. But at the end of the day, you're just trying to get there faster or do something different. But you can't do any of that without the core principles, the fundamentals, truly understanding the pain. You know, I talk about enablement, for example, in three buckets in any organization I work with and you remember Julie and you know, we did a lot of this together. I've got a great new guy on the team called Cam and I think about Enable me in three buckets that people should be thinking about. One is the market enablement. And that part's the most important. That is, does everyone understand the problems that your prospects and customers are dealing with? Because if you can't live in their shoes, if you don't really understand what it looks like, you're never going to get there, right? Because you can do everything else right. But if you never really understood what they're trying to achieve in the first place, you can't actually solve the problem. Then the second in my mind is, is your value enablement. So again, now it's about, okay, well how do we really help solve that problem? But again, it's always through the lens of do I, did I really understand their problem in the first place? You know, we've all been sold to when it's clear someone's knocked on a door, they've sent us something. It's like, you have no idea what I'm dealing with or the problems that I have or what I'm trying to do with my. Why are you even reaching out to me? And, and then third is, is making you better. That's the third part of the enablement. You know, that's the medic, that's the I go down to eventually with my teams. You know, meditation, mental fitness, you know, physical fitness. You know, these are all the differentiators in my mind now. Not the latest, coolest tech stack. That that's not going to change the game at the end of the day.

Speaker B: No, absolutely not. And saying you said a second ago, I spent three minutes yesterday morning over a cup of coffee looking through some direct mail that I got, got. I got a brochure through from a company that provides, you know, uh, like, what do they call it? Device as a service. So they, they, if you're a startup, you get your laptops from them and they, they handle that sort of stuff. And I sat there thinking, I was trying to figure out how we could do it because it was so effective. I was thinking, you know how I think they've got an easiest uh, challenge than I have because they can just send it to the office. If you have an office, they send the office address. Whereas like if we're trying to capture your attention as a CRO, you pro, a lot of the time you're working from home, you're not, not prob office, you're traveling around a lot. So that was a challenge. But yeah, it caught my attention. And the thing you mentioned about all those buzzwords, it's always been the same for me. You know, the social selling, you know, I, I've had tremendous success. I would say. I, um, don't want to sound arrogant, but I'll put myself in the top cohorts of salespeople in terms of having success from what you would class a social selling. But I also happen to believe that social selling is a complete non nonsense because for me it's selling on social. You don't, we don't talk about phone selling, we don't talk about email selling. They're just different channels. Right. And so this idea of social selling for me it's like, it's, it's, I think it serves people that don't understand social media so they feel that it makes it easier for them to understand there's a, a thing they have to get into and it's the same of like product led growth. For me that's like the next big nonsense which is like, don't get me wrong, I understand the strategy of if your solution allows it, giving it to a prospective user, not customer, prospective user. So they can kind of get into using it and like they kind of demo themselves and that's great. If you've got a product that can do that, that's wonderful. But really it's not sales, it's marketing because all you're doing is you're moving that uh, if this is the sales process, you're moving that where the customer, where you engage with the customer, customer further along. Right. So it used to be the case that you wouldn't even be able to, you know, you wouldn't even be able to get any product information without engaging a salesperson. You'd have to, you know, before you'd get sent the brochure or the white paper or something, you'd have to like give your email address and have a call with a salesperson and Then it used to be the case that we used to make the salesperson have to be engaged to do the demo. Um, then we kind of had online demos, you know, videos that you could kind of sign up for, but you still, they were still paywalled and now we're actually giving the customer access to the product itself. They can use it themselves. Right. Obviously not for an, not for their team. And that's obviously where the angle that's the win. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. This is a good thing if you can do it. But let's not pretend this is part of a, uh, sales motion. This is a marketing motion. All of what makes a success in a PLG motion up to the point where sales engages is all to do with marketing tactics. It's about getting the person engaged, keeping them engaged, feeding them information so that they invite other users and all that kind of good stuff. Now what's really important is that along the way of that journey that we're helping that customer. If they are just evaluating, you know, because there's two scenarios, I guess there's like one that they're using it themselves and they're thinking, wouldn't this be great if my colleagues use this? Or they're going, let me just try this for a while and figure out if it's good for us. Either way, you want to be inspiring that user with this is what you need from a solution like this. So if and when the time comes and they have to take it to procurement, if you've, if you've perfected that motion and they're not even bringing in other vendors, they can say, well actually this is the only solution for us for these reasons, which is decision criteria by the way, technical decision criteria. And so you know, it's like that is just marketing. But that's not a bad thing. We shouldn't like, we're not not poo pooing it. No, but it's different.

Speaker A: It's different. And I back to, I do think, think we have a tendency in society today to throw a buzzword or a term and apply it to everything. And PLG is a great one. Whereas. So we have a PLG motion starting next week. Ah, at alpha. But we sat down as a leadership team and mapped out the entire journey and aligned on what this really means. And so I forget where we landed on what we're calling attorney, but it's kind of like product led sales growth and. But we're being very, um, just being very common sense about and I Think the benefit of it is it becomes a lot more efficient for the prospective buyer and for the organization. Because now it's putting this tool in someone's hand and letting them play with it, letting them get access to it. They don't have to talk to a salesperson. They can do it at 11 o' clock at night when a lot of people are probably wanting to demo and do something when they finally put the kids to bed. And so I think there's all these great benefits, but then we map down out what are the trigger points, you know, when, when do they do something that, that says to us, let's reach out and offer some help, you know, offer some white glove. I think it also depends on the market that, that you're in. You know, if you're selling canva or beautiful AI or some of these products and it's $12 a month, you can have PLG. That's PLG the whole way. You know, Monday.com now, you know, I was at, I was at SESTA last year and you know, Monday.com founder was there and he was even saying, yes, we're a plg, but we're not anymore. He said when we've moved into enterprise, which accounts for, I believe, uh, if I remember him correctly, which now accounts for more of their growth than any other part of the business. It's not PLG anymore. There are elements to it. But he said we have an enterprise sales team. Don't think that we don't have a sales team that he's selling Monday.com to the biggest companies M on earth for a million dollars a year or half a million dollars a year. Um, but I think it's phenomenal and I think instead of people kind of getting into a debate of does PLG work, does PLG not work? Again, it's, what are you trying to solve for? What's the market? Who's the target buyer? What are you looking for to give you in the motion? Um, and I believe in our case, for example, it will give us tremendous amount of new pipeline. But the other nice exciting thing is it'll be qualified pipeline. So back to your earlier, earlier comment, which I'm, I'm so big on is the quality of quantity. So now when we actually see people coming through, they've used the product, they've got value out of our product. They're, they're realizing, wow, you know, I can use this really easily, intuitively. And when we see that and we're going to be able to reach out to them, it's going to be reaching out to someone that has already got value and understands what we do. But they, they need some hand holding to get over the line. And to me, I mean, that's beautiful. That's a, uh, that's a phenomenal coming together of product marketing and sales.

Speaker B: Yes. And the thing with quality over quantity is it's so, it's, it's, it's flawless. There is is only one flaw with quality over quantity and that is it requires more investment of time. Pretty much only time is the thing. Um, and time is an important asset. It's the most important asset in our industry. Right. And so what we really need to do to make sure we're not wasting time is to make sure we're really qualifying well. Obviously back to medic. But the thing there is for me, all of these buzzwords we talked about, pog, um, social selling, even AI, it comes down to the quality over quantity thing because AI is an example. I think I actually um, been doing some research on this lately and there's some really funny stats out or really funny predictions out there. In 2015, Forrester predicted that 20% of US B2B C sales people would be made redundant. By 2020 they were predicting a million, uh, people in B2B sales would lose their jobs because of the digital evolution that customers no longer wanted to deal with salespeople. I think it's Gartner that said that 73% of people don't want to engage with salespeople. They want a demo less rep free, I think was the term experience. And that was in 20. That might have been 2019 or 2021, I can't remember, but not that long ago ago. Right. Um, and there's a HubSpot report, uh, that said that um, only 3% of people find sales people trustworthy. All of these things for me are issues with quality because in every single one of those instances you would not prefer a rep free or a digital experience without a rep if it was what we know. Yeah, if there's quality there.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: You wouldn't find, you know, the most, the best best. One of the traits of the best reps is how they're able to instantly. Well, not instantly, but they're uh, able to instantly build credibility that leads to trust. And so quality is the only way to do that. There is. And you know, one of my bugbears a little bit about why, of course, like anyone, I'm into AI. I see all of the advantages. I can see where we're Going, don't get me wrong, I'm not like a Luddite. But for me, one of the things that really stand out as a benefit for salespeople is putting the time into the research. So, of course, you may now, instead of reading the whole annual report, you may ask the AI to summarize it for you. And there's wins there. But I do also feel there's a line there. I'm not sure. It depends on each person. It depends on the scenario where you cross it. But some of my best work is done in the. Where I kind of go in my imagination. The kind of the daydreaming I do when I'm reading an annual report or I'm researching something, I think, I wonder if that is like, this person. And all of a sudden I've linked this customer's problems to the other organization who I've helped before. And all of a sudden I'm building this bigger picture that makes me have much more context, which is what really stands out in front of the customer as quality. It's not that I can reel off, like, bullet points that, you know, ChatGPT's told me about them. It's that I can bring that contextual relevance to the conversation that makes the customer feel like I truly know them, because I have actually put a bit of time in to get to that point.

Speaker A: You know, everything you're describing to me yells authenticity. And, and so when we hear those stats, like, of course I have a visceral reaction to them as, As a. As a sales, professional sales leader. But I, uh, I think it is because that's representative of the transactional sales culture out there. And I think, you know, like, I look at the team I inherited here at Tim Cymru. Thoughtful. Truly understand the problems, you know, have gone in deep. And when I've met with them, with. With our customers, it's very clear that there's a strong 100%, as I think about this, that you just watch the reaction and the relationship between the customer and my senior people. And it's. It's cordial, it's friendly, it's warm, it's trust, it's. It's all those right things that you expect and want from a B2B engagement. Um, you know, I was just in San Diego at a big conference, and Andrea and my team, we. We probably had four or five different meetings, and every single one of them, you could see that the customer wanted to be there. They were enjoying it.

Speaker B: They.

Speaker A: I watched the dynamics between them. But why? Because she has taken the time to invest in that relationship, understand their problems, deliver for them in the past, make them realize that I'm here, I understand you, I get you. And I'm, I'm here to solve problems. I'm not here to sell you something, something. I'm here to solve your problems. It's like, you know, use, use cars or just car sales. People get a bad rap all the time. And I go, I don't want to go to a dealership and just jump in the cars by myself. I think we think we want that because of the poor experiences. But I've had a lady that I've bought my last four cars from and I mean I love it. I look at her, I was literally emailing her yesterday because my car's due, uh, to be released. And, and the value she provides me, you know, I ask her all the latest questions, well, what about this, what about that? And I don't walk in there thinking, oh man, um, I'm back at the dealership, I got to talk to someone. I'm genuinely excited. The once every three years where I go there and I chat with her and she helps me, she remembers me, she remembers, truly remembers, understands where I'm at, you know. Oh, Richard, I know you've got a couple of new little kids, so, um, not really sure if that's going to work for you anymore. It's that authenticity and trust. And I think as a sales profession, when we start and live and end there. And truly in your heart you are because I love the way you were just your mind started wandering off there when you're like, well, um, going into this POV with this big bank. Yeah, it's funny, we're solving all these other things and they had these, I wonder if they have those. And you really generally. And to me that's where sales is exciting as well. It's, that's where it's a, it's a game of chess. And that's where uh, you know, doing this for 20 plus years, I still get excited where you're solving people's problems for them. And you know that I can, I, I think I can help you with some things that you might not even know yourself yet because I've seen it 20, 30, 40 other times. But I'm going to do that in a respectful, authentic way.

Speaker B: Yes, you have to be curious and, and ah, uh, curious. If you, if you ask sales leaders, sales professional professionals, what's like the trait, there's words will come up, but uh, commonly curious will come up and to be curious, you have, you, you, you almost, you have to look beyond, like, the shortcuts. You can't take the shortcuts if you're really curious because you, you, you, you feel like you'll miss something. You'll feel like almost averse to it because you're like, I don't want to miss those little cues that, like those threads I can pull on and they take me somewhere else. So.

Speaker A: And it takes effort. It takes effort. It takes thoughtfulness. You know, I think if you even think about it, it's like catching up with a friend, right? If you and I catch up once a year and we sit down, we have a beer, and I'm like, oh, good night. How's things? You'll give me a pretty short answer. Yeah, everything's great. Because I haven't, I didn't really have. I'm not that curious about how things are. But if I literally stop and go now, Andy, how's this, how's this part of your life, you know?

Speaker B: Know?

Speaker A: Uh, that's right. Where, where, where's that? Because now I'm curious. Oh, really? So how did that end up working out? I know that you're talking about trying this. Did the value pyramid thing work? Did the whole rich. Let me tell you about that.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: Let's now go have a chat. And we're going to go in a direction that neither of us actually know where it's going to go, which will lead to just something special versus have you been. Andy?

Speaker B: Exactly right. And, and that comes back as well to your point about the buying the car and having the same sales plan person. If there's anything that's commoditized, it's cars, right? And so if you kind of look for a decision criteria lens on that, okay, Technical, that's kind of commoditized. Because even if you, even if, let's say you're going for the one car and model, you can go to other dealerships, right? So really what you're looking at is relationship and economic. And I'm sure, you know, economic is probably a bit commoditized as well, because you go to the other dealership, get same deal, but it's relationship. And that's what that salesperson is now. But that is the one that's very, very hard. Hard to do as a checkbox. You can't go, well, uh, yeah, we've got the sun visor, we've got, you know, this miles per gallon. It has to, it has to. You know, they have to put the Quality in for that. And so it makes a big, big difference.

Speaker A: The curiosity.

Speaker B: Curiosity.

Speaker A: She understands that I've now got two little kids this now. How are you using it? What are you going to do with it? Versus well, our car's better than this car. And it's like, that's not what I asked. It's like, you know, so there you go.

Speaker B: Well, this has been awesome. I mean, great. I feel like already, I'm already thinking, right, the next time you're in London, I, I'm going to grab you again and pull you back into the studio. So thank you so much for coming on. I know Team Camarie are hiring you guys on the up. So, like, why should people, uh, where should people reach out to you if they're interested in finding out more and connecting with you?

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely reach out on LinkedIn's probably the, you know, the best place to reach out. Um, but, you know, hopefully as people have listened along, um, we're really in a really special place at a special time. Um, I really love the culture. Um, I choose roles myself, myself as I would as a vc. You know, I look at the culture, the people, the direction. I look at the product market fit. I look at the opportunity, and not just the opportunity for yourself, but the opportunity to make impact and value. And we are looking for people that want to make an impact, that truly want to get outside of the buzzwords and truly have purpose and come be part of something really exciting, working with some of the biggest companies on Earth. And we have a really, really important mission. You know, we are looking at really helping save lives and making impacts on organizations by leveraging our technology, which is just super exciting.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Like, summarize that from what I've seen so far, best, best product in the field, best in the best, best product there is for what you do. Um, but also new stuff coming out as well. It's not like, you know, you're not resting on your laurels.

Speaker A: We're not resting on the laurels, no, no. We're broadening our tam. You know, we're. We, you know, we. The products that we have today are used by the biggest companies on Earth, but what we're doing is we're democratizing access to that. So to a degree, you know, if we would have sat on our laurels, only a couple hundred of the biggest companies in the world could benefit and get leverage from what we do. So our product and engineering teams have been hard at work in expanding and simplifying the usability and the accessibility leveraging AI leveraging other capabilities as well so that now, now nearly every enterprise on earth can, can get benefit from that and that's just created overnight a huge increase in our TAM and SAM and SOM and so we're looking for people that understand you know threat intelligence selling to SOCKS to be able to come on board and be part of this uh, this rocket ship.

Speaker B: Great products, expanding space, strong partner network, great leadership team by looks of it

Speaker A: you you know really great leader team, you know aligned leadership team and whether whether you come work here or whether you're looking at any other role I really implore people to really understand the dynamics and is the leadership team connected and are they aligned on where we need to go as a company? Because that's the only way you'll win. Love that.

Speaker B: Love that. Well thank you so much and uh

Speaker A: thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Look forward to the next one already.

Speaker A: Likewise.

Speaker B: It.