68 - Season 5 Finale. Samuel Monnie & Chris Lawson. Across The Pond Marketing Transformed Playlist

Speaker A: Welcome to across the Pond. This is Chris Lawson and I'm joined across the pond by Sam. Say hello, Sam.

Speaker B: Hey, Chris. This is, um, end of an era, right? This is, uh, the last of the season.

Speaker A: It is indeed. Yeah. It comes around quick, doesn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Time flies when you're having fun.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. And season five was called the Marketing Transform playlist. And, and the reason why we set it out like that was that hopefully you agree with us. We were joined by the greatest minds both sides of the pond. So definitely some change makers there impacting the culture of marketing and leaders who have ripped up the rule book and executed new rules focused on routine disruption.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, and just to be clear, the greatest minds wasn't just the two of us. Right? We weren't. This is not so self. Self indulgent. We had guests this season. So if you're listening to this out of order, please, or if you're reflecting, we were really proud of bringing together this, what we call the Marketing Transform playlist. Because you actually get, um, you got an interview episode with a special guest and then you had what we call what we coined an aftercast episode. And I'm sure that phrase is now permeating the audio first.

Speaker A: See it already, mate. See it already.

Speaker B: Aftercast is a thing now that we've invented and we're going to be the, the proprietors of that concept where you actually get a recap, a, uh, reflection, and you got our extended remix of the topics that we felt deserved more attention. So it wasn't just nothing wrong with an interview, but I mean, just nothing wrong with us chatting about things. But we wanted to actually take those topics and themes and really get into them, add some more perspectives and new perspective and then reflect on what we learned from our guests. Because what we loved about that stage this season is it's made us think, it's pushed us harder and we've learned, we've, you know, we had to relearn and unlearn things. And so if, whether you're an entrepreneur, uh, or you're rising star cmo, uh, looking for new ideas, we really feel that we've brought you that this season and we appreciate your support.

Speaker A: I don't think we could have anticipated that some of the themes that would have come out and given us some real points of interest and challenge and I think help define how marketing is going forward, really. When we set out to do the podcast, we wanted this to demonstrate that marketing was transforming, but thankfully not in an elitist, exclusive way. In a way where the founding principles of marketing are accessible to all and continue to be. And that's the whole point about making it accessible, whether you're an entrepreneur, rising star, as well as a uh, CMO with a, uh, large scale budget. And those principles are about know your audience, treat them with respect, have a two way conversation and tell them a great story as well as do something that will surprise them and challenge them. And I think that equally applies to performance marketing as it does to content marketing for instance. So, so what I think we were really, really pleased with was that uh, we tried to work on those same principles and it was so reassuring to see some of those common threads come through all of our guests as well. And trying to create that playlist of diverse voices, find that commonality, which was, which was really reassuring I think. Sam?

Speaker B: Yeah, and what we sort of felt, and I definitely reflecting back, is that there's this sense of Gen Zs or Millennials against boomers in the world of work. And we see a lot, all the guests we had is really these unicorn leaders, how they actually could see how Gen Zs and certainly m Millennials again, uh, using those horrible phrases to cluster a group of people. So we're not saying, oh, millennials are Gen Zs, but it's the fact that these leaders that we had on could really get it. They really had empathy, they had a lot of compassion, they had a lot of perspective. And Ajay talked about mentoring people and we felt there are a great cluster of people to inspire the next generation and uh, our leaders that ultimately we don't want to work for and the generations and the people coming through the industry would also want to work for. And uh, I'm saying all that, I'm going on a bit about that because there's a lot, there's a lot of data, more evidence showing that half of millennials and 75% of Gen Zs have left jobs for mental health and reasons such as anxiety, depression and stress. And in, recently, this year, in 2021, we've seen Naomi Osaka withdraw from the French Tennis Open. And there was a lot of backlash for her withdrawing because she said that these, these mental health reasons. And you know, I think there's just a lot more empathy and compassion that was needed into responding to her in her act of self care. And as we think about the guests we've had on, we just felt, well, look, these are the people who'd actually get it and you'd be able to approach them with some of the challenges. And as one of the guests talked about Minta Dial. He talked about leadership sucks. We have 70% of employees who are unengaged. And so we felt that the work that we brought through this season has really helped address and find just be inspiration and provide some passion, some inspiration and some ways that people can thrive in the modern world of work as well.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. And some of the highlights for me that came out time and time again and where I really felt that we learned was that need to ask tough questions and start with those tough demanding questions of yourself. First of all, um, RJ talked about that as to why the digital market had to be a certain way. He asked himself that question at the advent of the millennium. M and Nick also asked that question of himself in terms of there must be another way in terms of following your own career. And then Yin, uh, also that really comes to my mind when we were talking to Yin about her change of tact into looking after the whole of the milk industry in the US and she asked, well, why not? And I was really struck by the story that Amanda and Adrian told as well about the interviewees who were asking tough questions of their prospective employers about their track record in diversity. So that for me was a big thing coming out. Sam around tough questions. I also thought that one of the things that we brought up in our deep dives, uh, our aftercast, was that you can't plan everything. Sometimes you just have to follow your own path. But at the heart of it is sticking true to your principles. And of course that's what successful marketing does. It transforms. But, uh, at his heart is clear and true with a solid purpose. And I thought a lot of our guests brought that parallel to life. Really?

Speaker B: Yeah. I'll go back to the point you made. It's the wrestling. Don't be so certain that you're actually planning what you're doing. Realize that luck is also a huge driver in what you do. And I think when you have guests, um, sometimes you call them experts or we call ourselves experts and also remember that, hey, are we actually really in charge or is stuff happening to us that we can, we can take advantage of or we happen to be in the right place at the right time. I told the story of me joining a seven year old startup and that happened because my seat buddy on a flight guy, um, called John Gerasi, um, of CI Squared, um, which we teach communication through storytelling, just happened to sit next to him. So yes, there was some design in me fly back of the plane, but not necessarily someone I was going to be Um, a co founder with and in my career. I can think of times when I followed my curiosity and I ended up working in Switzerland and then in Germany. It's not that I had this grand plan. It was being open m. To be mobile. And. And then my boss says, okay, there's a job for you in Switzerland. So wait, wait, wait. I said I was mobile, as in London, other parts of England, not actually leaving the country, but being open to that opportunity and seeing that positively. And so I'll be candid. I think one of the last roles I, I had, I was in leading the capability work at Campbell Soup, um, out that the guy before me, who, the guy who accepted the job, um, actually backed out and so I was their second choice. But hey, I'm not taking that personally. I just think that was a wonderful opportunity to. Which came back to me and I had a great time and met some great leaders, including Yin Ranney, who was an interview guest. And that was kind of more, more luck than design. I think the other thing that, that stood out to me is, again you've mentioned Chris, is the storytelling part and the idea of really wrestling with what storytelling is. It's as much as what stories are you telling yourself and are they true, what's true about yourself and then what's the story you're telling the world as well, and how you bring that to life. And so be mindful of being articulate in doing that and communicating that, but also being flexible and actually really just being authentic in doing that. Uh, and then I think the other thing for me was learning how to listen to and all of these leaders. I can think of Yunrani, I can think of Ajo who's talking, you know, sharing conversations with his daughter and Minter about leadership. It's learning how to listen. And you'll be surprised how critical that is to leading effectively. And it's made me think of, um, a recent example, one of the, I think brands that I know that Chris, you've shared a few times as a, as a role model for us to look at called Brewdog. And um, James Watt, the CEO, who's really had to respond to this culture of fear that's come out and a toxic attitude that's been within the organization and this open letter and what's, what's positive from my side is that he's actually shown an openness to listen and learn to be responsive to, uh, the criticism in a humility, humble way. And he's actually seeking to communicate in an empathetic way. So you Made a stumble and a mistake, but you're actually not defensive. You're open to listen and be, you know, be responsive to it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean look, you know, it's such a powerful brand and it's, it's been a poster child for the beer industry I would say over the last sort of few years and they really have ripped up the rule book and done things differently. And then of course you're, you're confounded with these, these really uh, strong critics about the culture. And of course there's two things you can do there. You can, you can hide and deny or you can face it front on. And we talked about that a lot, I think in the episodes, uh, that we had about. Actually you can't get everything right all of the time, but what you have to be able to do is listen and learn and react responsibly and do that. So, so far so good, I think. But obviously he's going to be on the watch list now of many people and has a lot to do.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think again for us what's great is that we had different voices throughout the season who brought us different perspectives. But there was this common rally theme about the new modern world of work and leaders and uh, practitioners, entrepreneurs who are bringing what I believe is the best of us to the world of work and the world of marketing and the world of leadership.

Speaker A: We're going to look at some of the killer themes that ah, came out in the episodes. Uh, obviously the first interview that we did this season was about the backstory of personal success. Uh, we focus on Arjo and uh, and he really took us through that journey from 1999. And I think the interesting thing there was that ah, what he really showed that he was anticipating where search was going to go and where digital marketing was going to go and clearly did that well. And good marketing is about judging the current mood and anticipating and leading the future. And that has to be founded on good principles and foundations. Which is where the conversation with Ajo really took us. That curious mind, um, a disruptive and challenging, in a good way, upbringing and outlook. And the fact that I love the fact that he put his hand up in assembly and said, I'm going to work for myself. I mean that's pretty challenging at that age to have that um, sort of up your sleeve in terms of what you want to do. And I love that he recognizes that, that there is a time to create space for new people coming into the environment and the arena as well. Moving aside to let people to Breathe. He talked really eloquently about turning down speaker engagements and asking whether there was a female or a younger sort of person that potentially could act as a spokesperson for the industry instead and that could take his place. And, and I think that shows uh, great humility really. And the next thing that struck me in the second episode where we were talking to Yin was this concept about a lifetime career as a student of marketing, um, and thinking, well, what is still left to learn and how do you reinvent yourselves? And I suppose in a way Sam, this is why we do what we do because we love to learn and we also love the fact that other people can learn from us. And it was a real eye opener to me. When you look at the route these career paths or life stories take, um, from each of our guests, in fact, actually I hate the word career. You know, there's so much pressure on it and who knows whether the next move is going to be a good one for you or not. Let's face it, quite often they don't necessarily work out. Ultimately all you can do is your best work and be open to learning new things about marketing and about yourself. And I thought out of all our guests that came out really, really strongly from the uh, conversation we had with Ian and also with Minta. And for instance in Moreno Marketing, I'm going right back to basics of a moment around search engine optimization as uh, so much has changed with the latest Google Update, really focusing on customer experience. I need to be able to understand that, reset that and rethink how that applies to a lot of the marketing principles that I adopt on a day to day basis. So still lots to learn, Sam.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And throughout the, throughout the episodes and the seasons we kind of wove in um, different themes and different, um, I don't know, different premises. One of the big ones was this idea of people powered marketing and the power of people clearly shone through with the episodes of Yin Yunrani and Adrian Walcott and Amanda Phone. They really hit home on those themes and talked a bit earlier in this episode about um, luck versus planning. But there's also, you know, how we got our first break, the helping hand to actually get into the industry and a lot of things about mentorship and um, advocating and championing diversity, but also providing those opportunities and helping people to um, succeed in the marketing and the comms and PR spaces and some of the challenges that people of color have, some of the challenges that um, um, um, other groups have in actually succeeding. And it was interesting to, for Amanda to be Sharing the stories of how she'd been really leading the way and championing all this years and years ago. Now people are sort of saying, hey, so do you. What do you do in terms of helping, um, with, you know, diverse candidates for recruiting when she. When these are. Well, actually, yeah, those. Those principles you're quoting were kind of mine. I wrote them in the first place. So it's kind of ironic that her work was. It was so. It was becoming so established people. She wasn't even getting recognized as being the advocate of it. And, you know, that's a kind of backhanded compliment, really. But it was great to see them partnering up and actually doing the work together and really thinking through what it really. What it really means. Adrian, in the episode with him, talked about culture and really defined it as all the policies, programs, procedures, um, bestowed on an organization that kind of drive all the behaviors. And that's really interesting to see how, especially in this world that we live in, you're listening to this. We're in the midst. We're still in the midst of. And the return to work, the world of office work and some companies mandating returns and others trying not to. And there's more and more data that if you. If you survey people, 90% of people actually don't want to go back to that regular office world. And so how do you incorporate all of that and still drive the right behaviors and drive the right, um, the right outcomes in marketing and just recognizing that marketers are at the forefront of culture change. So marketers have to step up to that, and they have to embrace that role within organizations as being the culture shapers and change agents to actually drive success in the future.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And that culture shapers, I think, is a really important point there. You've got to work on that over a number of years. This doesn't happen overnight. Uh, these are also characteristics of people that have stuck to their cause and don't take no for an answer. And, uh, that sort of comes up time and time again, doesn't it?

Speaker B: The episode with Minta Dial was an interesting one as we move on to that, because he was wrestling with what leadership is and leadership is about. And, you know, this idea that leadership sucks, um, and that most people aren't engaged, and we know that to be true. We've seen the ramifications of COVID that people are quitting, people are changing careers, people are re evaluating what's important to them. And that wasn't that Govi just really, um, shone a light on the challenges and then the more digital world and depending on the career path. Right. Obviously, certain industries just, uh, became more remote based, digital based. And how do you show up to work? How are you authentic at work? How do you bring all of yourself to work? And really knowing that you're doing that may be perceived to be a risk, you may be taking a risk, but I think people now are just more comfortable being themselves. It's so hard putting on that mask or that facade of being this Persona in an office world and then trying to manage it at home and trying to manage it in other walks of life. I think people are just so tired, they're just going to be themselves. And so for me, it's just fascinating to see how that, how that works out. And as I say, it's true. And the data shows that the sales of sweat bottoms and baggy tracksuits and so people have been dressing more casually at home. Right. And so are we going to go back to doing what we think we should do in a world of work, or are we actually going to be authentic and real? Um, and with the modern way of leading and the modern way of being your authentic self? And throughout all of these different episodes, including the one with Minter, was this, this key role of storytelling? The stories you tell yourself, the stories you tell others, how you bring that to life and owning that in the world of work and being your, your true person. You know, M, for me often involves humor and, you know, something that is just bringing more of my personality. And in some cultures that was not necessarily seen as a positive. But hey, I think we are now that you've got to own your personal brand.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And, you know, you're still working on your humor after all these years of knowing you on this.

Speaker B: And so is there a tumbleweed sound effect? Is that the silent sound effect that we could put in there?

Speaker A: I thought it was good. I thought it was good. And then moving us swiftly on is, uh, the next one. So Nick was up next, Nick Bradley. And we, uh, talked about one Burning the Boat. But what I found fascinating was that, uh, idea of no turning back. The idea that actually you commit yourself to a path and you go in with both feet and you go fully onto that. But it was also, and still is the actual, the moniker that of BAME 2020, uh, are actually using now to signal the fact that actually they've turned their commitment there and the only way is forward. And I think that's really, really powerful when you're, when you look at a few of our guests, and you sort of say whichever approach they take when they, when they seize on something, they really seize on it and they really take it forward. Uh, and if we explore it a little bit further in terms of the approach uh, that Nick was taking, you know, really did reinvent uh, both his sort of uh, Persona in his way and his skill set in terms of what he was looking at and built on that. And uh, he's done exceptionally well creating sort of a social media following and a proven sort of business model around it. Which is, which is shows what you can achieve, requiring that level of focus. And something we've talked long and hard about is not spreading yourself too thin, isn't it? But also with marketing, you got to know when you're going to commit, haven't you?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I'm just listening back to some of the stories you told about Nick and also Amanda and Adrian's, um, program, their ethos of this, no turning back, commitment to diversity. And all of the guests throughout the season, they weren't shy in retiring, but it wasn't in a, uh, but equally it wasn't as in a, hey, I'm dogmatic and I'm right, you're wrong. There was just a sense of passion, a sense of engagement, a sense of commitment. But also I just have to reflect on, uh, all of them were lifelong learners. All of them were open to reinventing themselves. And that's something that I can certainly recall from the conversations with Yin Rani about um, you know, being a lifetime learner. But also ajo very early on his ability to ask these questions which allowed him to unlock opportunities and reinvent um, industries and sell, you know, sell off his business and then come back and enter a new industry. That, that quest for knowledge, that quest for questioning, so you don't always have the answers. You actually asking the questions to propel you. Allen Adamson's interview and the subsequent aftercast we did, I loved those two episodes as well because he brought up the premise of balancing the theory of marketing with real world practices and what actually works in the real world. And this make, you know, turning marketing theory into routine disruption. And that's what marketing is all about. He helped us really think through what is a brand, I. E. What you want people to remember, you know, the story you want to remember. And brand and branding is how you get that story into people's head. And it's just such an eloquent way of thinking about brand and branding and the challenges involved in that. And brand is so much more effective when the Customer and the consumer is put first where the people it serves see themselves and feel themselves in the brand. And I just see so much bad marketing where it's all about how awesome the brand is, how awesome they are. They have the solution. Their brand is not the hero, the customer, the consumer, the shopper, the user. That's what the brands should focus more on. So it's amazing to see brands still making missteps. And he highlighted brands doing that well. But it's the idea of balancing this theory and practice and do all the theory you want, learn as much, read the books, read the latest principles, go back to understanding as long as you put it into, into practice. And that's the thing that both of us love to do. In terms of my marketing transformation work, where I'm actually consulting real companies in the tech industry or automotive industry, how to take their, their business challenges and how to build customer journeys, how to actually better connect with their customers and consumers. And this idea of transformation being routine disruption, it's the acceptance of this core fact. I'm going to repeat myself and it's not my quote from Tully Kuppenberg, but it's the idea of to learn, unlearn and relearn. And that for me is a great summation of all that we stand for in marketing Transformed. And throughout this season you'll hear and see and realize that essentially all of the guests and all of the aftercasts, we constantly wrestling with this idea of learning unlearning and having to relearn for what's right and fit for the future.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's the thing that comes up time and time again every single series. In a way it's almost the essence of what we're about. But also the reality is both of us setting up our own businesses. Um, Moreno Marketing, I think, think for me it's interesting when you look at something so long from a corporate perspective. When I look at it from like being a, a full time cmo and now I look at it from actually working for myself providing sort of virtual CMO services. Once, once you have a different angle on it, you do have to rethink everything and you have to make sure you're not taking a stereotypical look.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And again I think that's something that we're both strive to get across in our everyday work and it was great to have that reinforced by all of our guests. And uh, I just want to take this opportunity to thank all of them for giving their time. They were really quite something and we hope to have them back on.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I think the humbling thing is, as you just rightly say, that while we've worked at big companies, we're now working in more startup or entrepreneurial roles. And what it forces us to do is to, if you're working with a nonprofit versus a large automotive with, you know, they spend over a billion dollars on marketing and advertising, very, very different solve, very different approach to how you can support their needs versus the, say, the nonprofit. So absolutely right. That throughout this season and throughout our guests, and if you go back to the first four seasons, hopefully you'll see that we really laid the platform for the essentials of marketing. In season one, we went, went further in a deep dive in season two. Season three was all about the modern marketer in a post Covid world. And then season four was this agile marketing action plan which has brought you the cornerstones, the mindsets and behaviors. And then season five really plays that role of bringing to life what marked the marketing transformation playlist in such an eloquent and we hope, a really impactful way.

Speaker A: So look, let's bring this episode and series to a close. So what three things should we be looking out for?

Speaker B: Okay, well, shameless plug. The first one I'd say is, um. Hey audience. Hey listeners. We really, really do value your listening. We really do value your support and we love, love, love you. Please pause and leave us a review. Please, um, go on to Apple and then provide a review or onto other platforms. Please, please do that because we really do appreciate it and we also appreciate the support and it helps us succeed, but also helps us, helps inspire us to bring you the next season.

Speaker A: Sounds like a good place to start. What else do we need?

Speaker B: Well, if I'm going to ask for a review, I'd love feedback. So we thrive on, um, feedback, comments, and any direction you'd like to see in terms of where we can go with the next season. And from all the responses, some of the reviews, some of the comments, it really helped us shape the season five and obviously the guests that we brought. And so we'd love to continue that dialogue. So just do keep reaching out through Twitter or through LinkedIn or through email or through the website. We absolutely read every response and we'll get back to you. If we're a bit busy, we'll certainly follow up ASAP to get back to you.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and, um, thank you for your continued ears. Really, it's absolutely appreciated. Sometimes you can feel that you're talking into a black hole and to hear the responses coming back in terms of where it's been valuable and how you've seen it, being applied to your job or your career or your change of careers is absolutely great. So thank you. Thank you for your time, everyone, and we look forward to coming back soon.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Can only echo what Chris says. Thanks so much for your support, your diligence, your love and your passion. And as I always sign off, have a great week across the pond. So if you're an entrepreneur, uh, rising star or CMO looking for new ideas, find us at marketingtransformed. Com and on Spotify, Apple, Google, and all good podcast platforms.