545. LinkedIn Outreach That Doesn't Suck with Jason Osborn

Speaker A: It's just one of those things. Sometimes you just have to take it day by day and just learn through that. And I think that's a really important thing. And you know, if you say tie back to some sort of marketing lesson is oftentimes in business and what we're doing marketing, we can't always see the outcome of it. We don't always know exactly how it's going to play out. The key thing is the consistency in which we do it. And if we just stay consistent with it. And yes, we may have to evolve, we may have to do many, many, many iterations of it. And the way that we're marketing right now may not be the thing that takes us to the next level, but it will to that next level.

Speaker B: Welcome to Marketing Speak, a series of interviews and monologues featuring thought leaders and industry practitioners in search engine optimization, e commerce, and online marketing. Here's your host, Stefan Spencer, SEO expert, author, speaker, consultant, and Internet entrepreneur. Cold outreach on LinkedIn has become a numbers game. Automated connection requests, templated pitches, and AI generated messages flood inboxes every day. And the fact is, most of them are getting ignored. My guest on today's show is Jason Osborne, a LinkedIn lead generation expert who spent years helping companies generate business on the platform. But the most memorable story he shares has nothing to do with LinkedIn. It's the story of surviving a plane crash and the unexpected lesson it taught him about consistency and relationships and making the most out of the time we're given. That perspective shows up in the way Jason approaches business development. Rather than chasing prospects with heartless pitches, he developed what he calls the LinkedIn reverse podcast method. The idea is surprisingly simple. Interview your ideal prospects instead of trying to pitch them. In our conversation, Jason explains why traditional LinkedIn outreach falls flat. He shares how a brief conversation can create more trust than months of messaging. Back and forth, we explore where automation helps and where it gets in the way. His view is that technology should make relationship building easier, not replace it. If you're tired of sending messages that disappear into the void, this episode offers a refreshingly human alternative.

Speaker C: Hello and welcome to Marketing Speak. Um, I'm your host, Stefan Spencer. It is my pleasure to have Jason Osborne back on the show. He was on episode 302 five years ago talking about LinkedIn. And now in this episode, we're going to talk about the intersection of LinkedIn marketing with podcasting as a one, two punch and how also to integrate AI into what you're doing so that you can fill your pipeline. Your sales Pipeline with valuable leads. Jason, it's so great to have you back on the show.

Speaker A: Thanks, Stefan. Really appreciate it, man. You said five years. I was like, man, I can't believe it's been that long. It's crazy.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, you've been known as an, as

Speaker C: a LinkedIn expert, and now you're a podcaster as well. You have a, uh, show that you're using as this strategy to generate leads that we're going to actually be walking through. How did you come across, or how did this kind of, uh, flash of insight come to you to integrate, uh, those two strategies together?

Speaker A: Yeah. So, um, I have been doing online marketing for almost 20 years now, and over the last eight years, I've been specializing in LinkedIn work with companies all over the world, um, around that, uh, helping them to generate leads. One of the things that I started noticing, for anyone that's listening, uh, if you're on LinkedIn, you will have noticed this as well. But there is so much spam on LinkedIn, and that has become just absolutely everywhere. Um, lots of reasons for, um, really got bad around, uh, when all the lockdowns were happening. People couldn't go out and meet as normal. And so they started to use LinkedIn as a platform to start to network. Along that time, people realized, oh, it actually takes a little bit of time to build relationships. So everyone started using automation tools, which can actually be really damaging on LinkedIn. I see a lot of people getting their account shut down using those. And so what ends up happening is they, they just use these tools or they hire an agency that, um, doesn't really know what they're doing and they're just being spammed left, left, right and centered. So the way I came across this kind of hybrid thing that we call the LinkedIn reverse podcast method is I started seeing, well, how, how do we actually build business, how in the real, like quote, unquote, real world, offline, not online marketing. And it dawned on me that one of the best ways to do this, and you'll constantly hear this from everyone and like, some of their best business deals or clients have come through some sort of networking of some sort. They've gone out to have a coffee, they've gone to a networking event, they've gone to something. And as that, when they go out and build the relationship, the business comes after. And so it's like, well, how do we take that and apply that to online marketing, specifically LinkedIn? So we started, I started looking at, um, how do we do this? And we kind of fell in this by accident. There was a client of ours that was kind of doing this and they wanted us to help out with their outreach and all of that and help them kind of build it up. And I saw how amazing it was working and so we started doing more of it and testing more of it. So what we do is we take the platform of a podcast, but we flip it, we reverse it. So where most people have thought leadership podcasts, what we do is we have podcasts that are geared on interviewing our ideal prospects. Not to sell to them on the podcast, not to pitch or anything like that, but it is there to, uh, build the relationship. And so that's kind of how we came across. Of course I can go into a lot more detail of it, but that's how it came to fruition is how do we actually start building relationships instead of spamming people on LinkedIn. But we look at it from a relationship led perspective.

Speaker C: Yeah, now you said it came about kind of by accident. You know, I don't believe in accidents. I don't believe in random chance. So, uh, is something come to mind when I ask you, like, was there some sort of synchronicity or, um, you know, beyond a chance, um, kind of occurrence that brought this about? Because this is a big pivot for you guys to really focus. This is a big focus for your agency now. And um, you know, I feel like there is, there's more to it than just an accident.

Speaker A: Well, I say an accident. It was. It's something that I had been looking at doing in terms of how do we change the whole thing on LinkedIn so that it is more relationship. I mean, we've always been very much relationship led in the way we teach things. And we had launched a, uh, what we call our outreach done for you strategy. But the challenge with that is there was, um, oftentimes clients don't actually do follow ups with prospects and leads, which blows my mind. I don't understand why people don't do that. Um, so I was looking for a way, well, how do we just take all of that off our client? They don't have to do the follow up. They don't have to. We literally do. Everything all of our, all of our guests do is you show up on the podcast. At the time, I didn't know that's what we were going to end up doing, but I was looking for something where it's just the easiest thing for our clients. They don't have to do anything other than just talk to their guests. And the the, the, the synchronicity, I guess, is that whilst I was looking for this, we started working client with a client that was looking for the same thing that was testing this podcast side of it. And we just kind of came together with it. And I was like, oh, this is actually really powerful. Um, and the way, the way I look at it now is we build the coffee house, the environment in which people can meet, and we bring in their ideal prospects to them to sit down and have that coffee. All they do is they just, we just say, sit down, this is the time and place you need to show up at the coffee house and we're going to send people to you just to sit down with you every 30 minutes. And, um, and so it's exactly what I was looking for. I just didn't know I was looking for that. And it kind of came together, which is quite cool.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And, and, uh, the goal isn't to sell the prospect during the interview. That would be awkward. What is the goal? To get, uh, the, the guest, your ideal prospect who's, um, being interviewed. To do what?

Speaker A: Yeah, to build the relationship. So the best analogy, again, that I can give on this is the coffee house scenario, right. In the real world, offline, when we meet up with someone to have a cup of coffee, we're not necessarily going in thinking, okay, I'm going to sell them on this meeting, right? What we go into that coffee house situation, that coffee meeting is, let me go in, have a conversation with them, get to know them, they'll get to know me. Let's just chat, let's get to know each other, let's find out a little bit more about what they're doing. Sometimes that could lead to in depth conversation about business. Other times you just end up talking and having a great time. And then at the end of that, you're like, you know what, that was really good. Why don't we talk further? You know? And, uh, they're like, yeah, actually, I'd love to. We didn't even talk about business. Why do I sit down and, and have a zoom meeting or let's meet up for another coffee and let's really dive deep into the conversation because I really like it. I think we could do business together.

Speaker C: Right, so you're not trying to get them to stay on the call after the recording stops for, you know, another half hour or something. Your goal is to get them to agree or to suggest a second conversation.

Speaker A: Exactly. So in the real world it makes sense. We're like, yeah, of course that's what you do on a coffee meeting. But online, all of a sudden it's like people's, um, brains, they short circuit, thinking, well, how do you do that? What do you mean? Like, how do you sell? It's like you do the exact same thing in a coffee meeting. We just use the platform of a podcast to build that relationship with people and then move them into a secondary call afterwards. So. Absolutely, you're correct on that.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. One thing that bothers me about these coffee meetings that people try to have with me is they try to pick my brain. And they even use that terminology, and it just drives me bonkers, Makes me cringe when I hear that expression. Can I pick your brain for a minute? Can I buy you a coffee and pick your brain? No, no, thank you. I do not want that. Yeah, so. So I think there's oftentimes an ulterior motive or a, uh, less than giving, um, motive for the people who are trying to get a coffee meeting, whether it's in person or virtual. And how do you overcome that, that, that skepticism?

Speaker A: It's, it's a great question. And this is why we, I vehemently tell people, do not ask people for coffee meetings online. There's an immediate resistance that goes up. There's skepticism, like, and you'll get that, hey, do you want to have an online coffee or a virtual coffee? It's like, why, what are you, what's the purpose? What are you trying to sell me? That there's an automatic, like, what's the catch to it? You know where. With a podcast. And yes, if in person meeting up, uh, for a coffee, sometimes, you know, if you just reach out cold to someone, say, hey, would you like to meet up and go to Starbucks or wherever, you know, whatever coffee house you like, um, people might go, oh, you know, what's the catch? Why do you want to meet up with me? But in a networking environment, if you just kind of meet someone, hey, would you like to go and have a coffee? Oftentimes people will be happy to do that. Well, it's the same thing online is, yes, it is cold from the perspective you don't know them, but you're creating a pure, value driven, uh, element to the guest. Because when you're reaching out to people and saying, hey, would you like to come onto my podcast one, a lot of people, it's an ego stroke. They're like, yeah, gosh, I'd love to be on a podcast. Of course, I'd love to do that to you. A lot of Times it just makes logical sense, particularly if they're like business owners or they're uh, somehow in a position where they're trying to market the business. They see that as an asset. So it's a pure value LED portion where they go, yeah, cool, I can see I'm going to be interviewed. I can use that in my marketing. I can cut it up into shorts, I can put it on social media, I can email it to my email list, whatever the case may be.

Speaker C: Right. Put it on their press page or their media page.

Speaker B: Yes, ah, anything.

Speaker A: And even if they're not the owner, like we've got clients who uh, like we have a client that's worked with, um, he's a financial advisor and he works with tech professionals. Not the owners, just people in tech. And he gets people, I say we get people booked onto his podcast all the time. They're not the owners, you know. Well, why would just normal employee want to come onto a podcast? Well, first of all, they never get asked to speak on podcasts.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Number two, they never get asked to speak about their experience and expertise. Right. And so all of a sudden like, oh. And so it gives them a platform to be able to share experience where most of the time they don't. No one really cares around hearing that. And so again, it builds your relationship and that's the key thing. It's all relationship led. Um, and at the end of that podcast, sometimes people are happy to move on, to have a conversation. Sometimes they're not immediately, sometimes you can follow up with them and they're ready down the road to have a conversation. But you would treat it like uh, any other sort of relationship led prospecting method. And that's the key thing is, look, everyone knows in business you gotta sell. There's gotta be some sort of transaction to stay in business. We get that. But you don't have to do it in a way where people feel that they're being taken advantage of because if they can come onto a podcast and they feel valued, they feel appreciated, they feel heard, they, you're asking them questions about their expertise, they feel valued in it, they can see it as a marketing asset to them, all of a sudden you are giving way more to them than, than you're getting from them at the moment. Right. And then if it turns into business, fantastic. And so that's the beauty of it. So it's how many coffee meetings do we actually want? Well, how many podcasts can we get? You know, we, we, we book up to 20, sometimes 30 or more podcasts per month for clients. So this isn't just one a week or one a month. You know, imagine having two to five of these, these relationship led conversations every week. And that's the power of it. It's really, really cool.

Speaker C: Yeah. So how, how do you introduce your product or service in a way that seems natural? And uh, then they have an inclination or curiosity that's been piqued that you can then say, hey, do you want, do you want to talk about this in further detail? Uh, without it being pitchy?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So it's the, the key thing around this is how you're running the whole entire conversation. Um, um, we recommend that you actually do your intro and outro in every podcast. Where most podcasts, they have a pre recorded intro and outro that they edit in afterwards. Well, with this, you do it while you're on the call with them so they hear what you're saying. And the intro, you sponsor the show by your own thing.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Which sometimes people feel like, oh, how could I do that? Well, it's like, well, if, if someone paid you to sponsor their thing on your podcast, you wouldn't have any issues with that. But all of a sudden when you go, oh, this show is sponsored by the LinkedIn reverse podcast method where we do this, this and this. We, you know, we provide an, uh, uh, for established business. We brought reliable acquisition channel conversations with their ideal prospect that doesn't rely on any of the spammy traditional marketing, uh, methods. All of a sudden they hear that and the penny drops, just like if you were to sponsor somebody else. But all of a sudden when we sponsor ourselves, we're like, well, we can't do that. Which is so weird. You know, it's like, why not? It's your business, so you're sponsoring the show by your own thing. People are fine with that. They hear that it drops that seed into their Right.

Speaker C: And you do it at the end as well in the outro.

Speaker A: And the outro as well, because obviously you've been talking, you're asking them questions about their expertise and all that. And so when, uh, you say it in the outro, it drops that seed again. And they're like, oh. And oftentimes when you get done with the actual podcast side of it, and they'll say, oh, by the way, what's that thing? They never remember the actual name. Right? They just remember the feeling of, I need to, I need to ask them about that. And so you'll get people that ask that. Or just in the, I mean, gosh, Stephan, you've done so many podcasts. You know that at the end of the podcast you just talk. You just chat back and forth. And oftentimes again, like in a normal coffee meeting, it just opens up an opportunity to say, well, look, I'd love to help you just as a thanks for being on the podcast. Like, would you be open to diving deeper on that, uh, on another call? Sure, absolutely. You're correct with what you said earlier. You're not sitting there for another half hour trying to pitch them or anything like that. You're not doing that. All you're doing is if you go into saying, how can I build relationship, how can I build the acquisition channel conversations? Because if I know that I have more and more conversation with my prospects and build a relationship, the business will come.

Speaker C: Right? And so how do you augment this with AI? So, or, um, do you, do you augment it with AI? Like, I'll just give you an example of what I'm playing with to take, uh, uh, my podcast to a whole other level. I don't see any other podcasters doing this yet, but, um, I have on my other show, Get Yourself Optimized, uh, several prototype episodes where I've done this. Uh, one is with Mary Resinbeck on homeschooling. Another is Philip, ah, Samorovan Helsingberg. Um, okay, let me restate that. Uh, another is with Philip, uh, okay, he's got four names. Get it right here. Um, okay. And the other one is with Philip Samore Von Heltzendorf Felling, where it's on Quantum Energy and Quantum Healing. And with both of those episodes, they're so informational value packed, I thought, well, why not restructure them, um, into an online course? So the course is written by AI. The video script, the outline was created by AI and the narration is in the guest's voice, which, with their permission, using 11 labs. So it sounds like them. It doesn't sound like a robot voice, it sounds like them. And it is, um, filled with video of like B roll footage and the captions and everything so you can follow along with the training. And it's about 20 minutes of training per module. And uh, yeah, it's amazing. Uh, it's got quizzes, it's got a workbook all written by AI. And uh, yeah, I'll include a link in the show notes to each of those courses so we could roll that out across all the episodes and, uh, you know, get another, you know, just rapport building, outreach, uh, communication going with that previous guest. Even if they were on the show 10 years ago and say, hey, we're using AI to do this with these episodes. Here's a sample. Would you like us to do this with your episode? Can we get your permission to use your voice to um, narrate it? Uh, it'll be AI generated, but it'll sound like you. But we need your permission to do that. Um, and you know, do. Is this something that you would like to reuse yourself on your own website? Because we can send you the, the video files and the quizzes and all that sort of stuff. I think it's a great way to reactivate somebody who was a guest nine, ten years ago or even a year ago because you know they're, you're no longer top of mind anymore. That episode was uh, you know, it came and went, you know, so I thought that was a pretty cool strategy. But what are you doing to leverage AI to make these more uh, impactful, These uh, conversations and the outreach and the efficacy, uh, the efficacy of these, um, outreach, uh, is actually getting the desired outcome.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, really interesting that you're doing all that. It's quite cool. I always love hearing how people are using AI to do different things. Um, in terms of what we do, like the, the, the episodes that we do with our clients, where our clients do with their guests is that it's, they're very short, they're only 15 minutes in terms of the podcast. So potentially there could be something with AI that we do around that. But because they're such bite sized chunks, there's nothing as much information in it to be able to create like a course from it or anything. Um, what our main purpose is is not necessarily to try to get the podcast to number one, have as you know, a ton of downloads. That's more of a traditional thought based, um, podcast platform that people are looking to do. So if that happens, that's awesome. It's. But it's more of a secondary thing. What we're looking at is how many people can we, how many new guests can we speak with to build that relationship? So from an AI perspective, like it's definitely not anything as um, detailed, uh, or intricate of what you're doing, which although it does sound very cool, my mind is spinning with some ideas. But uh, you know, our main focus is getting people in front of their ideal client, um, two to five times per week. Now we still use AI a bit to help with the creation of the um, the podcast title and descriptions and things like that. Um, because it, gosh, it just Saves so much time. I mean, I remember back in the day, and I know you've been having a podcast forever, but it was so time consuming to create those, um, those things where you'd have to hire someone where they'd listen to it and create some sort of description, um, around it, or you could get the transcript, but it wouldn't necessarily, uh, create the description and things like the way they do now. So there's a lot of things you can do to speed things up. Um, but I do recommend that even anyone using AI, you still have a look over it, um, and just don't trust everything AI puts out because it's not always 100 accurate, but it will do, you know, 90 to 95% of the heavy lifting. So, um, but yeah, we don't, we don't use it anywhere as detailed or, uh, in what you're doing with it. That's very cool. I love that idea.

Speaker C: Yeah. And of course, as AI improves exponentially, it will go from 95% on the mark to 99.995% on the mark. And you'll hardly have to spot check anything that's coming within months, I'm sure. So, um, I'm curious, how do you get the, uh, outreach to be so successful in terms of the hit rate? What, what, what is your angle? What's your kind of persuasion techniques? You know, um, Dr. Robert Cialdini, who was a guest on this podcast, uh, wrote an amazing seminal book on, on the topic of persuasion and influence call. It's called Influence. And the principle of Unity is just one example of the principles that he has. That principle is a great opener. Like, hey, uh, just, uh, reaching out to invite you on my podcast. By the way, I also went to University of Michigan. Go Blue. Right. So that unity principle, like, oh, here's another, uh, Wolverines fan. Okay, cool. So that kind of greases the wheels a little bit. Like, what are you doing to increase the hit rate for your outreach campaigns?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's something actually very similar. We don't necessarily say, oh, by the way, I've also done this, or I've gone to the university, or I like this sports team, um, because you're not always able to do that. But the what, what we found is this, that just by asking, hey, do you want to be on my podcast? There's an automatic, oh, they're adding value to me. They're not trying to pitch me, they're trying to sell me, which you automatically stand out from other messages that being sent, which, you know, I'd say, let's go, let's go. 98% instead of 99%. 98% of messages they're having on LinkedIn are probably just very similar in nature. Hey, I, uh, want to add you to my network. Hey, we've got this thing. Hey, would you like to jump on a call? Hey, we, we're doing this, this and this. They can, you can feel it's a pitch of some sort. So by adding value straight away, then, oh, this is different. And they can see the value by being on the podcast, similar to what we mentioned earlier. The other thing is that, not so much the Unity piece you mentioned there, but it's the um, recognizing uh, their value in what they bring. So if you're, we'll talk about uh, that, uh, our client again that does, um, interviews tech. Starting a tech. Yeah, tech, uh, um, um, professionals. He'll say, I've got a podcast where I interview successful tech professionals like yourself to share the lessons you've learned. What you do differently, uh, in your journey of being a tech professional, where you see the tech industry going, it's those sorts of things. Because now they're like, oh, they're actually wanting to hear from me and share my experience and what I, where I think tech, you know, the tech profession is going, it creates this. Oh, I'd love to share my information. And the really interesting thing about most human beings is that we're very happy to share information if we feel like it's going to be value added. As opposed to what you said earlier, where people reach out, hey, can we pick your brain? And it's like, okay, now you're actually wanting information from me for free. You're trying to, you know, you're trying to, to take advantage of my information. Where when you bring someone on a podcast, you still may ask those same questions, but you're doing it in a way where it's positioning them as the, as the authority, the, the person that knows the information. And so that we see really, really good acceptance rates on LinkedIn doing that, um, people coming onto the podcast, uh, it's really amazing what it's able to do. So it's similar nature to the Unity principle. It's just, I'm, um, sure there's probably another name for it, um, but it's that acknowledging their experience and their expertise and wanting to learn from them, um, in a value driven way.

Speaker C: Right, right. And are you doing this outreach, your agency? Are you doing it as the agency or are you doing it as the person who's going to be interviewing, like, do you get their LinkedIn login details and then you're doing the outreach as them, or are you saying, hey, we're, uh, the, I don't know, the publicist, or we're the, whatever, you know, podcast manager for such and such, um, client. And, and they'd love to have you on the podcast. Sure.

Speaker A: So we do use their LinkedIn profile because it's. It needs to be them. You know, people need to know that that's the person that they're going to be being interviewed by. Um, and. And so, yes, we do get access, uh, to their LinkedIn profile, which is, uh, just for anyone listening. You want to make sure that if you do this with you have anyone manage your LinkedIn profile, uh, it has to be done right. LinkedIn's really finicky on how they give access, uh, with IP addresses and all this sort of stuff. So we do it in a very secure way in terms of how we communicate with them on that person's profile. Um, it kind of depends on the client if they are happy for us to. Because any of the messaging that we send now, it's all approved by them anyway, and so they know the messaging that's going out, and we, um, get to know their tone and all that. And so oftentimes, if people have questions, there's a process that we go through. So it's all. It feels very much done by them. But there are some clients who are like, oh, no, I don't really feel comfortable like that. Can you just say, hey, you know, um, um, you're my assistant and you're reaching out to have them on the podcast. And if they want us to do that, we can do that as well. So it's what the client feels more comfortable with. Um, but the cool thing around that is this. When you talked about AI earlier, I think there's a lot of skepticism in the marketplace right now around, is this a real person or is this AI? And when you're asking someone to be on a podcast, whether we message someone as them or whether we're saying, hey, we're so and so's assistant, they'd like to have you on the podcast, whatever the case may be, what people automatically feel is, oh, this is real. Because at some point, just like me and you, we're on a podcast, I'm gonna get to speak to you like, you're not an AI person. Now, again, down the road.

Speaker C: Yeah, change, you know, give it a few months.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. That it may hold, may change completely, but the people like knowing, oh, I'm actually gonna be talking to a real person. And they like that human interaction, they like that. And you know, over the next several months, years, maybe people will feel a lot more comfortable speaking to AI. Maybe it'll just be a part of normal thing. It's like, oh yeah, I speak to the AI, like they're my best friend. Or who knows what might have robots like iRobot with uh, will Smith in it, you know, where all of a sudden they're just, there's a part of your normal day life, you talk to them, they're in your house, I mean, who knows? But right now people like knowing, oh, this is an actual person as opposed to just another message that they don't know. Is this real? Is it spam? Am I dealing with some sort of bot? They just don't know. And so, um, whether however we message them, at the end of the day, they know they're going to be talking to a real human being on the podcast. And people love that.

Speaker C: Mhm. Yeah. What if you don't feel comfortable podcasting?

Speaker A: Oh, so good question. Um, the big difference between what we do and traditional thought, uh, thought leadership podcast is that a thought leadership podcast typically is you're having to come up with some big massive 30 minute or one hour talking, ah, points. You're talking to yourself basically. You know, you're just talking to camera. Or you might bring on a guest like what you've done here, but you've been doing this for so long, you're really seasoned with it. But someone coming into them like, oh my God, I've got to do all this research, I'm going to do this, I've got to do that. Or they'll look at these big massive podcasts, you know, like Diary of a CEO and all that take off. I've got to have some big studio and all that. You don't. So what I always say to people is this, do you do zoom calls? Which of course the answer is yes. It's like you're qualified. Yeah, that's it. You're literally just having a conversation. You know what kind of makes people nervous is they go, oh my God, I'm on camera doing a podcast. Well, you're on camera doing a zoom call as well. And so, um, you know, we, we. I still coach and I consult my clients on how to run it and

Speaker B: way to do it.

Speaker A: But it's if you can do a zoom call, you can do a podcast because it's, you're literally just talking to somebody asking them the questions about their experience and expertise and knowledge around a particular topic. And it's, it's so simple. So, so simple.

Speaker C: Yeah. One thing that I think helps with the credibility kind of um, positioning angle is to have a proper microphone. So if you're just on your internal microphone on your laptop that doesn't look so credible. Like podcasters have a fancy mic, you can't see it, uh, with my virtual background, but I have a Shure SM7B right here. Pretty fancy microphone plugged uh, into um, I forget what it's called, like a condenser type thing or whatever. It doesn't go straight into the USB. So you can get for $80 on Amazon a fifine, which is a weird, uh, brand from China, but it's super cheap and it comes with uh, the ARM and everything. So you've got the whole setup and it plugs right into your USB for 80 bucks. And you'll look, you'll look the part then. I think that's important because just having AirPods in your ear and using the internal mic on your laptop just doesn't make you look like you've been doing this for very long.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like I've got a yeti blue, um, you know, and I do recommend at least good audio quality. The cool thing a lot with the editing process is a lot of the times when you edit it, the editing software now does have a, like a, um, studio filter type thing that you can do so you can actually run it through. And it does sound quite decent. But you're right, you don't need to have, you're not spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars to try to get something done. Um, I always have an earpiece in here like this just because I never like to hear the sound directly from the laptop. Um, because sometimes I just like it having in here. But sometimes people have the, the earphones on. I see. You know, podcasters do that as well. It, it's, everyone's a little bit different and unique in the way doing, but audio quality I think is a big thing. Um, and even if your video quality on your laptop is really poor, you can get a decent webcam for 30, $40. Like it's not expensive so it doesn't cost a lot to get started, you know, and, and you can always upgrade down the road with stuff. But yeah, it, it doesn't, it's not a lot. It's not as much as what people think it is. It's pretty easy to get started.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So you mentioned at the beginning of this episode, how spam is just kind of taking over LinkedIn. Could you give some examples of the kind of spam that you're talking about? Like, and are these in direct messages, are these in posts, are these in comments? Um, all the above. Like, what does this look like? And how do you stand apart from all that noise? Because I'm sure our listener is active on LinkedIn more than just to outreach to get, uh, podcast bookings. So, you know, they're investing time or their team is to help them build up their profile and their, uh, reach their reputation with the algorithm and with their followers. Uh, slash, connections. I'm sure we've gone into some detail in the previous episode 302. Um, but things have changed and, uh, probably, uh, you have some additional new strategies as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, well, there's. When I say spamming, I'm primarily talking about connection requests and dms, um, posts. I don't see too much spam per se, on, on LinkedIn with that. However, posting on LinkedIn is usually very ineffective. Um, people don't go on to LinkedIn to sit there and scroll through content. Um, I always tell people, when's the last time you heard someone say, oh my God, when on LinkedIn. I just got lost scrolling for the last hour and a half. You just, you never hear that, right? TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. Yes. It's like, oh, my God, I went on, and next thing I know and a half later I'm watching some weird cat video. Right? You don't hear that on LinkedIn. That's not what people go there for. And so content on LinkedIn is more of a, um, it's a supporting mechanism when you have a proactive outreach strategy. So as you're reaching out and as you're building connections, as you're having that direct relationship approach, the content that can help support that, um, potentially. So everything on LinkedIn's backwards around it. Other platforms, it's content first, on LinkedIn, it's content second. And so what comes first on LinkedIn is the direct outreach strategy. But again, most people are doing it wrong and they're being spammy. So connection requests. Right. Um, I kind of mentioned this one earlier. People go, and I'd love to add you to my network. It's like, okay, great, so what's in it for me?

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: You, you want to add me to your network for what? Like, why there's no benefit or, you know, oh, um, we have a lot of common connections. It'd be great to connect okay, why, you know, or hey, I see that, um, you're in this industry, it'd be great to connect. Cool. I know I'm in the industry. Why do you want to connect it? It's, there's, there's these really generic messages that go out to people and then what happens is. And again, anyone that's been on LinkedIn, you kind of know exactly what's going to happen with this. If you were to accept a connection request, what are you almost guaranteed? Like, you're. I'd bet money on it and I would win. Like, I'd come out on top of this. What are you almost guaranteed to receive after you accept a connection request? Uh, a pitch. Yeah, you're either going to get that in the next five minutes because it's automated, or within the next day. And oftentimes it's still automated, but you know it's coming, right? You're just waiting for it. And so, and what happens is you do you get this, hey, we do this, we do that, blah, blah, blah. So the, the approach really is how do we begin to connect with people in a way where they feel the value is going to be added to this, them. And so this is why we do the reverse podcast side of it is because there's nothing in it that we're pitching. We're not trying to say, hey, we do this, we do that. It's all about, how would you like to come on to the podcast? And we position you as an, as an expert in authority. Yes, please. Uh, like there's, it's a completely left field approach, but it works because it's 100% value driven. One of the things I find really funny, Stefan, is that sometimes one of my clients I would like to, they'll say, can you review my messaging? We send it out to people. I was like, well, you're just pitching. You need to add value. It's like, no, we are adding value. It's like, how are you adding value? Because we're telling them in the message that we're going to be able to help them to do this and this, this if they have our product. I said, that's a pitch that's not adding value. And so people have a really hard time to flip that switch of going, well, how do I add value without pitching? Well, how do you add value in any other area of your life? You just start communication and conversation. And so that's the key thing around it. The challenge is then how do you, um, get away from what I call the awkward high School dance. And the awkward high school dance in LinkedIn is when you send a message. Hey, how's things going for you? Yeah, I'm fine, thanks.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: How's business going for you? Yeah, it's going well. Great. And what you been up to? Well, what, why, what are you, what are you messaging me on? It's like this weird kind of exchange. It's like, what are we doing here? I don't really know. It doesn't really feel comfortable. So we have to make sure we're not doing the awkward high school dance conversation. But we don't want to be just going in for a direct pitch as well. It's just how do we build relationship conversation? I think the biggest challenge people have, and a lot of people don't like hearing this, is they're just lazy, right? They want to be able to communicate with someone. And within the first two to three conversations someone goes, yes, I want to buy from me. And there's a lot of people that are pitching courses around that, uh, as well. Like how to get people to buy from your DMs within two. Within two DMs. It's like what, like if you're selling something for 20, $30 maybe because there's people can throw that money away. But if you're actually looking at selling something, people are going to buy from you within two DMS if they don't know you. So typically what happens is, yes, you might be able to, to sell someone within 1 to 2 dms, but what the course actually ends up showing you is you have to build all the relationship on the front end and then you message them and they might buy within 1 to 2 dms. And so, but people like that, let's just go in really quick, get a yes and move on. And they forget about the relationship side.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, uh, being transactional is really the, the root of the issue with not just the different, uh, spamming, uh, techniques that happen over uh, the, the dms, but also in even the posting and the commenting strategies. You can totally tell, for example, if somebody is commenting using AI to write the comment. You can tell if they wrote the post using AI. You can tell if they're using some kind of scammy approach, comment, such and such keyword, and uh, I'll send you the thing. Right, so they're baiting you, giving you all sorts of stuff about here's the thing and then here's how it works and whatever. And if you want the thing, uh, uh, you know, I'm not going to link to it. Uh, here, I'm, I'm going to make you a comment, a keyword and you know, get the engagement up in my post so it gets more views and visibility. And that feels kind of disingenuous.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting because I think sometimes those things, if people get to know like, and trust you, they're. Sometimes those things work really, really well. But it's one of those elements where you've got to look at, how are we. I'll give an example. I won't name the person's name. Um, but they actually do a really good job of this. They put out so much free content. It's so incredibly value. They'll do one to two hour lives where they'll go into incredible amounts of depth around what they do and how the strategy works. And they literally, they just talk about so much stuff and because of that they build up a lot of, uh, trust within their community. And then sometimes they'll do those drops where they say, hey, we've got this whole PDF or whatever, if you want it, DM me this. And because they've given 90% value over and over and over again, when they do that, people are like, oh yeah, cool. Like, I'd love to hear more about that. And so there, there are ways to do it. But do it right, do it where it doesn't feel transactional, where there's actual relationship and it, I think that's the key thing. It doesn't feel, as you said, Stefan, ah, transactional. People don't want that.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So I know we're getting close to time. I wanted to revisit a story that you shared. And episode 302 that was really powerful, really has nothing to do with marketing. I mean, maybe you can, um, bring a marketing lesson to it, but I just wanted to resurface it because it was, um, so memorable and so miraculous. And that is how you survived a plane crash? Yeah. Do you mind, do you mind, uh, sharing again a bit about that?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, sure I would. This was a long time ago now. Um, I was in my early 20s and was uh, on a twin engine prop Cessna plane. Um, and there was five of us on board and uh, we were flying and um, we uh, the engines stopped working. Um, the official ruling was there was a mismanagement of fuel and the engines got starved of fuel, um, and just stopped. Um, which if anyone's ever glided in the air, you know, it's very, very quiet after hearing prop engines, which are very, very loud. Um, and yes, we ended up, um, crashing into a neighborhood, into a house. And, um, it ripped the whole right side of the plane off. And, um, me and one other guy survived. And then the other three people, uh, that were on board, um, ended up passing away. But yeah, that was a really, it was a long time ago. It was a challenging time, uh, in life. Um, but I had some really good people around me and really helped me get through that time. And of course, you know, everyone, all the families that were involved, we were all real close anyway, um, but it was just a very interesting time in life, uh, to have gone through that and experienced that. Um, but yeah, it's. It's one of those things where, you know, I think we, we. We all, we all go through stuff. We all go through challenging times. And while it may not feel as an extreme, you know, it's very rare to talk someone to someone who survived a plane crash, but we all go through our version of what feels like plane crashes in our life. And, uh, you know, complete can be very, uh, um, confusing. I can feel like our life's been turned upside down, whether that's in business or personal life, relationships, health, whatever the case may be. And it's about just looking at how do we. How do I just get one step further than I did the day before? And that can be really challenging. And uh, but that's one of the things I did is, is for whatever reason, ah, whether it was the trauma or just, uh, loads of stuff, my mind was only able to see an hour ahead. And when I was on the plane, I was actually writing out a business plan for a business that I was wanting to start up. And obviously when you're writing that, you're thinking months and years ahead of what could we do, how it shaped. And I found it, uh, scary in a lot of ways because afterwards I can't explain it, but I could not see an hour ahead. The furthest I could see and plan ahead was an hour after that is like my whole brain went fuzzy. I couldn't see anything. It was like the future was this blur. And so I just, um. One day I just told myself, I was like, okay, I'm not going to try to see tomorrow. I'm not going to try to see next week or plan ahead. I'm just going to plan ahead a half hour into the half hour further. So if I could see an hour ahead of time, what I'm going to do 30 minutes after that, and then the next day is like, okay, let's do two hours and in three hours. And so over, um, the next several weeks it built up and over, obviously the next several months, it became a lot more normal. I could see, you know, into the future again, so to speak. But it's just one of those things. Sometimes you just have to take it day by day and just learn, um, through that. And I think that's a really important thing. And in, you know, if you say tie it back to some sort of marketing lesson is oftentimes in business and what we're doing marketing, we can't always see the outcome of it. We don't always know exactly how it's going to play out. Um, the key thing is the consistency in which we do it and if we just stay consistent with it. And yes, we may have to evolve, we may have to, uh, do many, many, many iterations of it. And um, the way that we're marketing right now may not be the thing that takes us to the next level, but it will lead us to that next thing that takes us to the next level. And so it's just in things, day by day.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think also too that uh, we have to trust that what we're doing is making an impact. You know, there's a ripple effect that we can't see, maybe even uh, our whole life. But when we have our life review after we uh, you know, go back to non physical. Oh, see how the, how the things that we did, the podcast episodes and the blog posts and all that that we wrote to help people and not just to sell our stuff actually made people's lives better, maybe even saved some lives, you know, so I've been doing this show and get yourself optimized for 10 years and uh, that's a lot of episodes. And uh, have I gotten an ROI in terms of like, uh, you know, m m more money out than I put in? No, it's been a cost center, not a profit center. That's, you, uh, know, it is what it is. And I, I, I don't feel like I wasted my time because I didn't make a profit on, on this podcast. But I, I, I, I know and trust that this has impacted people's lives.

Speaker A: So yeah, 100%. 100% agree with you on that, Stephen.

Speaker C: For sure. Yeah. So if our listener, they want to work with you, they want to hire your agency to help them get these, uh, ideal client conversations happening in the podcast interview format. What do you charge? Huh? How does it work? You mentioned there's typically 20 to 25, uh, episodes booked per month for an average client, uh, walk us through kind of the pitch.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So, um, we do a three month upfront contract with that, um, which includes all, all your setup and um, just the setup for everything needed. Uh, and then three months of implementation. Um, it's somewhere between, depending on kind of what we're doing and clients we're working with, it's anywhere between um, uh, five to seven and a half thousand setup, uh, for those first three months included as well. Um, and then should people carry on with that and they're like, yeah, Jason, this is awesome, let's keep going then. It's just a normal running rolling monthly contract that we have for that, usually around 2,000amonth. Um, but we do literally everything. The only thing that our guests or clients have to do is just show up and do the fun bit on the podcast and have conversations. Um, and obviously there's ongoing consultation with me as much as needed and all those sorts of things to help them out. But it's very simple structure in what we do on that. Um, so that's, that's what we do. And if people, you know, want to get in touch and learn a little bit more and have a conversation, see if it's even a right fit for them, then just reach out to me on LinkedIn and um, we can have a chat there and take it to the next step of having a conversation.

Speaker C: Yep. And they should definitely mention me. They came through Marketing Speak podcast and Stefan Spencer. So, um, what would be like, uh, to wrap up this conversation? A wisdom nugget that you want to leave our listener with?

Speaker A: Oh, gosh, good question. So many things I've been thinking about recently. I think the biggest thing I'll kind of reference back to what I was saying, um, before, around the consistency piece, um, um, I read a post. It might even been this morning. If not, it was last night. And people may have heard this before, probably have. But the thing that helps you in context of business is which the post was, the thing that helps you actually make money is by doing the thing consistent over a long period of time. And it just feels monotonous. That's where actual success comes from. People don't like hearing that. They think there's there, there's a deeper, deeper secret that the, uh, you know, the successful aren't telling you. But that is the secret. It's the people that just do the thing over and over and over and over and over again for years. And it builds up and grows and grows and grows. The same principle applies for anything else. In our life. It makes a lot of sense when we think about health. If you just eat healthy, go to the gym, eat well, drink well, all of that stuff, you know, that over a period of time, you're going to look better, you're going to feel better. We get that naturally with our health, but for some reason we don't apply it to other areas of our life. And so that's the biggest piece of, I think, wisdom, particularly in business, is you just got to keep sticking with the thing. The people that usually end up failing are the people that keep jumping around trying to find the magic thing, when really the magic is the consistency over a long period of time.

Speaker C: You know, I think that boils down to something that is endemic and, ah, epidemic in this culture these days, and that is distraction and distractedness. I interviewed Nir Eyal, who wrote the, uh, book Indistractable. Great book. A great episode too. Um, I think in this world of dopamine addiction with scrolling social media reels and shorts and all that sort of stuff, that sucks, um, our attention away and we fritter it away, we squander it, and then we don't have the discipline left to do the thing that really matters. You know, there's, uh, a book by Brian Tracy called Eat that Frog.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker C: So you do it the first thing, the thing you don't want to do, the thing you're procrastinating, the uncomfortable thing, the thing that will actually move the needle for your business and your life. Do it first, you know, while you got the willpower. And don't fritter your, uh, precious attention away on stupid stuff. Uh, you know, the cat videos and all that. It doesn't feed your soul, it doesn't contribute to your soul mission, and it certainly doesn't move the needle in terms of your business either. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I think, I think it's about finding that balance. Nothing wrong with watching a cat video. Nothing wrong with having downtime. Nothing wrong with that. But I think what you said is absolutely correct. It's not allowing the attention to be sucked away by things that actually don't move the needle or move you forward. Have those times where you go, yeah, I'm just chilling right now, but it's structured in that. And then you go, here's my time, where it's pure focus, where I'm gonna build and do that, not just get distracted. Um, it's becoming increasingly more challenging with the amount of attention distractions that we are having now. It's crazy.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, Jason, it was a pleasure. Thanks for coming back on the show, listener. Go find a way to make a difference in people's lives. I'm sure something intuitively will come to you and we'll catch you in the next episode. I'm um, your host Stefan Spencer signing off.

Speaker B: If you like this interview with Jason, then check out my previous interview of him which is episode 302@marketingspeak.com 3 302. If you want to hear more conversations like this about building real relationships with your ideal prospects on LinkedIn, then I recommend episode 67 with Angela Lynn, episode 255 with Julie Mason, and episode 518 with Danny Inny. Also, I invite you to check out the show notes, transcript, action based checklist and all the URLs mentioned in this interview with Jason Osborne at marketingspeak.com 545. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share the episode and more importantly, the entire show Marketing speaker speak with a friend. It'll really help this podcast grow and reach an impact. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Marketing Speak podcast. This is your host, Stefan Spencer. I'm the founder of the SEO agency Net Concepts, co author of the Art of SEO, and author of Google Power Search. In addition to this podcast, I also host Get Yourself Optimized which is about up leveling your life, relationships, peer group, career, business and spirituality. If you want more traffic and you want to work with me and my team, visit www.netconcepts.com. the site also contains a wealth of resources that include online courses, screencasts, webinars, white papers, articles and more. To reach me directly, email Stefan Spencer.com or visit my personal website at www.stefanspencer.com. until next time.