The $160B Digital Ad Fraud Problem

Mark Evans: Hi, it's Mark Evans and you're listening to Marketing Spark. My guest today is Rich Khan, the co-founder and CEO of Nura, a company that helps businesses detect invalid traffic, ad fraud, bots, and the growing amount of fake digital activity influencing modern marketing performance. At first glance, this sounds like a tactical marketing issue tied to waste and ad spend or low quality leads, but the reality is much bigger. companies increasingly rely on data to guide decisions around customer acquisition, attribution, forecasting, product marketing, and growth investment. When the underlying signals are inaccurate, manipulated, or fraudulent, companies can end up optimizing it on the wrong information without realizing it. Riches spend years operating in an environment where trust, verification, and accuracy are fundamentals of the product, while fraudsters continue to become more sophisticated in how they imitate real human behavior online. this conversation, we explore what fraudulent signals reveal about modern marketing, how companies should think about data quality and decision-making, and what CEOs need to understand as automation and AI continue to reshape the digital landscape. Rich, welcome to Marketing Spark. Thanks for having me. Why don't we start with a softball question, get your story and an overview of Indura, what it does. I've been a developer for As long as I can remember, wrote my first game when I was nine years old. I got published in a magazine when I was 12. I've been developing code on and off, depending on the situation, but I started my first digital marketing company in 93. So I've been doing this pretty long and I started an ad network back in 2003. I think of Google, but a lot smaller. Okay. We launched it. Everybody was really happy. And then over a short window of time, people started complaining that traffic quality was starting to slide. So I did some research, looked at the analytics and realized it was fraud. I've seen fraud before and I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to license a fraud solution out in the marketplace because I don't want to be the guy having to solve fraud. And I went and did some research, couldn't find any company. In fact, the first commercially available fraud solution may come out to 2008, 2009 era. So back in 2004 and five, I figured, let me just write it myself. So I wrote it myself, solved the problem for my clients. Obviously had to continue iterating it because of the fact that fraud keeps evolving. And ⁓ after about 10 years or so, people started asking, if not begging with me to use the platform outside of our network. So we decided to test one client and see how this would work as just a test to see how it worked. The funny thing was he only had organic traffic and we found 30 % fraud in his organic traffic. We thought this made sense. So we did some testing up against some of the fraud solutions that exist in the market at that time. Realized we had a much more accurate solution. We were finding more fraud than they were. And we're actually improving ROAS for the campaigns that we were testing. We decided to roll out as a standalone solution and 2017, Inora was born. So fraud is a very big problem. There are lots of different types of fraud. I think it would be helpful if you could break down fraudulent activity. So sometimes it's bots, sometimes it's bad actors like How do you define fraud and what are some of the biggest examples of fraud out there right now? When we talk about fraud, there's a lot of different terms for it. I had a client call it non-consumers. had the industry standard for fraud is called IVT, invalid traffic. Just to understand IVT, there's two different kinds of IVT. There's GIVT, that's your general invalid traffic at your data centers, your known spots. This is usually done through an IP address lookup, maybe IP address user agent. Generally your GIBT filter. We generally work with our car. do that, but we also consider some clients, it's all they can use. And that's the only thing they have time for. So we can do that. But really what we try to focus on 70 % of our traffic comes from what's called an S IVT filter, sophisticated invalid traffic filter. So when we talk about fraud, we're talking about bots. It could be AI bots, malware or human fraud forms. So humans actually just the results. So they can get around captures. and bot detection because they're real people. When I talk about fraud, I'm always generally talking about bots, whether they're AI assisted or not, just bots, malware, human fraud, those are the three main vehicles that fraudsters commit fraud. So give you an example. A basic bot could be something that has access to a Google search feed, right? Google doesn't get all it's when you buy traffic from Google, you're buying all your traffic from Google. fact, last I checked, it was like 90 % of the traffic when you buy on Google ads. is actually coming off of Google.com's domain. So it's their partners and affiliate networks that drive traffic in. So it's possible for somebody to have access to that feed and a bot can simply query that feed for say car insurance. It gets back a list of ads, clicks on one of those ads, goes to the page and then disconnects. And that's a very basic, easy to detect bot. But that's a bot. Back in the day, it was very difficult to detect. Nobody knew they were happening. In fact, I had a company, I was 28 years old and I had a company back in the 2000 era that was in the advertising space. We were paying people to surf the internet. So what happened was we would have a little display of batteries that were rotating on their desktop. They would surf the web with this banner rotating and we would make money off of that. We'd split the revenues with them. And we had people making thousands of dollars a month using this application. But again, what was happening is there was a lot of people that realized, ⁓ I can use a bot to suck down those images, make it look like it's being viewed. just because I'm a bot, I can do thousands of them per second. And of course you run thousands of bots. can do a lot of damage. What really ended up happening back in 2000, all of a sudden in that first quarter, everybody started realizing, although companies that were spending money on digital marketing, like, a second, we're throwing money at digital marketing, but we're not getting a result. The hell's going on here? Everybody pulled back at the same time. And April 14th of 2000, the dotcom bubble reversed. So that's really what killed it, in my opinion. Fraud was what killed the market back then and back in 2000. So this is happening again. The fraudsters have gotten more sophisticated. They're getting around stuff all the time. And as you're getting around the traffic, they're making more and more money. Right now, the number that we're quoting is last year as a global society, we spent over $750 billion in digital marketing. 2024 was the first year digital marketing. people spent more on digital marketing than they did on traditional marketing. But added that 750 billion that was spent in 2025, we're estimating, conservatively, about 160 billion was stolen due to fraud. So it's no longer a question of if you have a fraud problem, if you're spending money on digital marketing, it's just a question of how much fraud you have. So from a brand perspective, and that's a big number, obviously that is a problem. So what do companies... do love that. They recognize the problem exists. Hopefully they recognize the problem exists and they understand the magnitude of the problem. When you're at companies that are dependent on yes and no, okay, why don't we, where we go on. So talk to you about that. Are they not educated? Do they not care? What's that landscape look like right now? think you just don't know. What happens is you don't wake up one day and say, ⁓ I got a fraud problem. Right. You wake up and say, my ROAS is dropping. Maybe the content's not right. Maybe the audience isn't right. I got to mix. So a traditional digital marketer is going to focus on the creatives, the style, the design, the keywords, the target markets that they're going after, the audiences that they're building. They're going after all this stuff and they don't realize it's a fraud problem. So we do a lot of trade shows. In fact, think this year we're doing 18 trade shows as a small company. That's a lot, especially when my CRO has got to be at every single one of them. So he's literally living in a suitcase. He's just constantly traveling. And I do last year, I did them all this year. I'm doing a little less. I'm trying to focus on different aspects of the business and we're coming into people like big brands and we're talking about the problem. They're like, wow, I didn't know a solution like you existed. Some saying, I don't even know that problem was that big a deal. A lot of these people, because what's happening is they're buying traffic from these entities. And when the term fraud comes up, in fact, we just had a conversation this week with somebody. And he's usually one of my competitors, one of the old school, when I say old school, one of the ones that came out in late 2000s, a fraud solution. And he says, according to, and I won't say the name, but according to this company, we have one and a half percent fraud. And we're like, they don't. I guarantee you have more than one and half percent. In fact, we've been watching fraud this year grow across our network. We generally say on average, we find 25 % fraud on when we bring on a new vendor. But last month it was over 37%. ⁓ Was the average that we're catching. But you've got marketers looking at ad copy design optimization. What are some of the red flags that suggest we may have a fraud problem? There may be something happening behind the scenes other than a spike in spending that they can't explain. Are there signals that they should be looking at once they discover that? What do they do? The problem is when you start buying from. a source, whether it's programmatic, affiliate based, search or social. When you start vying from these places, the frauds are already there. When you turn your campaign on, this is what the source of traffic is going to deliver. So you're almost kind of, this is what I'm going to get. This is what I expect to get. So you rarely see bumps in it, but I'll give you a story. We took on a large university that spends a lot of money on digital marketing and unbeknownst to us, they had a marketing agency that was doing all the marketing for them. And they turned us on because they, they felt something with their data wasn't right. They were spending a lot of money and the cost to bring in a new student was they thought higher than it should be for digital marketing. We turned on the system and sure enough, found fraud and one of their channels of fraud, is historically known for about 50 % fraud, because it was a programmatic space. They had 96, 93%, something north of 90 % fraud. They got us on the phone with their agency. They just, don't understand what's going on. I said, what's happened? is you're optimizing their campaign around some type of KPI, right? Some metric that you're looking at and fraudsters know the KPI you're looking for. So what are they doing? Is they're faking that KPI because you're looking at impressions that clicks. Are you looking at some easy metric for them to bit to spoof? And now you're optimizing, you're making good decisions based on bad data. Next thing you went from 50 % for the 90 % fraud and they didn't believe us and maybe it's your data's wrong. And I'm like, I've been doing this, I've been running this software for the last 20 something years. I guarantee my data is not wrong. In fact, we're the only solution in the marketplace that's got a 99.999 % accuracy guarantee when we identify fraud. So if we identify fraud, you can take it to the bank. We put our money where our mouth is on that. So what they did was I said, you know what? Prove me wrong. Shut off that one source, let the balance of the budget go to the other sources and let's see what happens. They shut the source off and the client said they saw a spike in ROAS. So it's not just real, it's real data. look at companies and they've got these dashboards that they rely on excessively. But in this case of the university, you were, it was a more of a case of a feel. We think something's going on. We're not exactly sure. And maybe that was a hunch or maybe someone in an educated guess. They were getting, they just didn't think was right. They didn't believe the data. And then that made them go, maybe we should question it. But sometimes it's fraud so sophisticated that It actually hides beneath the surface of many companies may have a big fraud problem, but they'll never know it exists because the dashboards and the data don't tell them that. Just about every company that's spending money on digital marketing has a fraud problem. It's just how much fraud are they getting? This is what I tell people. If you have less than 5 % fraud, it's really going to be hard to notice. You're probably like, that's a couple percentage points. I can live with it. It's the cost of doing business. It's really not. hurting you in any way, sir. Anyway, once you tip over 10%, now this gets into the meeting, meaningful amount. Something's going on. got to figure this out. Not right. By time you break 20 % fraud, sky's falling and they either try to figure out what the hell is going on. They start doing research and try to figure out. This is the problem I'm seeing where I'm spending a lot of money. My CAC is too high or my KPIs that I'm focusing on right. There's something's not right. I got to figure this. And that's when they start searching a solution like us out. The nice thing is what we tell these clients is look, don't get a gut feeling, get a data feeling. Cause we're a big believer in making decisions based on data. So we offer a free traffic quality audit. takes less than three minutes to deploy the code on your site. If you're running Google tag manager or WordPress or something like that, or if you've got easy access to deploying a little pixel on your site, it takes no time at all to deploy. And then we'll tell you exactly how much fraud you have. where it's coming from. And then of course, if it makes sense to work with us to, to put a game plan together to mitigate that and get rid of that. But usually, like I said, our goal for most companies is once we identify how much for they have, we come up with a game plan that within the first 90 days, depending on where they're buying their traffic, we want to cut that in half in the first 90 days, because I want that client to not only say, okay, it's a number on the dashboard that a door says is this, I don't know if they're right or wrong, but. If we take that number, let's say it's 25%, we cut it down to 12%, all of a sudden they start seeing the difference. Your CAC starts to drop, your KPI start to improve. Now they realize, okay, it's just not a, it's a real scale. The scale is telling me what's really going on. If I take their advice, I'm going to see results. They feel the difference. From the outside, looking in, in a simplistic way, it looks as though fraud is a media buying problem. But if you take a step back, in a sense, it's really a business intelligence problem. In fact, I would say 80 % of the time we're dealing with the head of marketing of a company like the CMO or the VP of marketing, because the other one's responsible for the ROAS and the campaign buys. And they're the person that generally we'll speak to, but we'll speak to CIOs, we'll speak to CTOs or sometimes speak to CEOs who are like, my jobs work on things that are broken and something's not right with our market. I'm spending more and more this year and I'm getting less and less returns, something going on. And we're watching the threat grow and that's becoming a bigger and bigger problem where people are starting to ask. When we go to these trade shows, we have a conversation with people and it piques their interest because they're like, oh, we just spoke to a Fortune 100 company. We're going through their procurement because you know that with the big companies, the procurement procedure could be six months, but they're like, if you can help us find 1 % or reduce 1 % of that loss based on the amount of money that they spend for their 100 plus brands, that is going to more than obviously way more than pay for itself to us. They're looking for incremental improvements across their campaigns. And we can just show a small percentage improvement. They're happy, but most of the time it's going to be significant because you're really going to feel the difference. Within the whole fraud world and within the digital spending world, trust is obviously the biggest thing. There's trust that the money you're spending is actually being deployed properly and there's no bad actors having an influence on how much money you're spending. The reality in you, the most firsthand is that fraud is becoming sophisticated. Think of it this way real quick. You go to buy traffic from film the blank, Google, Facebook, Twitter, you go to buy traffic from one of these vendors and you bring up the word fraud, they're going to tell you, no, my traffic's clean. So who are you going to trust? The person selling you the traffic or a third party audit? Do we always recommend get the third party audit so you can see what's going on so you can optimize your campaign better? Here's a big picture question is. If fraud is becoming increasingly sophisticated and we're in this war between the fraudsters and the good guys, are we approaching a point where distinguishing between real and artificial engagement becomes exponentially harder? Is it real or is it fake? How big of a problem, how big of a commendament is this going to become or is becoming? It used to be years ago, we'd have companies come to us and say, we're going to build something ourselves. And it's okay. Then it got to the point like. If you're going to actually build your own solution to identify it, you need a couple of people who know what they're doing. So you got some expenses there and this is not a like, oh, by the way, and it's at a CTO's job. This is something you need to look at full time because it's, that's how you have to look at this. It's constantly evolving. Then you need a data lake and you need access to database. I can you next to all this tools. And then again, you're still only looking at your data. Right. So. That became a situation where people would might be able to make a little bit of a dent in their fraud by doing it themselves, but they would be spending tens of thousands of dollars a month on doing it where we're a lot less expensive than that. So we always tell people it's obviously for us self-serving, but it's cheaper and more effective to hire somebody like us because not only do we have access to your data, we have access to hundreds of clients of data. And because of that, we see more patterns, we see more stuff and we've been doing this for the last 21 years. We know what we're doing, but to get to your point, AI last year in Q3 came out in a big way with fraud. And it got so bad, basically it got around every fraud solution in the market, including us. And we were at a trade show and this was a trade show overseas. And there was two different companies selling fraudulent traffic that gets around all fraud vendors. Again, overseas, that's what they do. They just openly say, hey, I'm going to give you fraudulent traffic. It's cheap. Gets around all the vendors and you'll get paid for it. So. Obviously there's a market for that, people looking to buy that traffic. So it took us a little time, but we were able to put a special update, got the update out, made a big press release about it, put the whole thing out there. And I think the last couple of people we tested, they're using some of our competitors, not catching this new AI fraud. And the new system we've developed for this type of fraud should protect us for years to come from everything we've done. fact, part of my team sits there and builds. uses AI to try to attack our system and get around it because they know everything we do to look for fraud. So they've got the best intelligence about trying to get around our system. And when they find a way around it, then the team gets together and they stop it. sound confident about AI, but the thing about AI is that it just becomes exponentially powerful and dangerous at the same time. How big of a threat is AI to, know, when it comes to digital fraud? Let's put it this way. If There's $750 billion a year being spent on digital marketing and a hundred percent of it was fraudulent. say was all the traffic flowing was fraudulent. Nobody would spend money on digital marketing because they weren't going to get any conversion or value at her. Today. I say we're around 20, 25 % fraud across the network. There is a number between 20 to 25 % and a hundred percent that kills the whole fight. I don't know what that number is, but If I keep seeing that number increase over time, that the fraud rate keeps growing, it's eventually going to hit a point where everyone says, a second, like 2000, let's pull back and stop spending. We're to have a burst, some type of dot-com bubble burst again. It's coming. If we don't, if enough clients don't start doing something serious about stopping fraud, it's going to hurt the industry as a whole. You do have a lot of companies, obviously some of them are clients, some of them are prospects, some of them are doing their own thing. When you look at that landscape, what separates companies that treat fraud prevention, that treat fraud prevention strategically and those that see it as a tactical afterthought. The ones that are thinking ahead, that know it's a problem and the ones that only get help when the data says Are spendings out of whack? Something's terribly wrong. We better do something. What's that landscape look like? That's two different camps. One camp is basically thinking ahead and working on stuff and the clients that I work with, I know we're seeing them dropping their results, seeing improvement in their KPIs and everybody's happy. We get such praise and thanks from the clients because we've significantly improved their company and helped them grow. And so they're staying ahead of the curve. ⁓ And then you have the other camp, they run a traffic quality audit with us and you're like, That's 15 % fraud. can deal with it and I don't want to have another process and a little dashboard to go through and they leave us. And then many times later they come back and say, Hey, can we run another traffic quality audit? I think it's gotten worse. We can't just ignore it anymore. And then, and then there's people that are still out there just letting it happen. So those are the two different camps we see it. Some people think they can just deal with it or just put their head in the sand and not worry about it. I did speak to somebody out of trade show in Germany. And it was funny, he's like, he pulled me aside. He's I know you've been tracking me down. He goes, but be honest, we're never going to be able to run a traffic quality audit. go, why not? He goes, cause once I lift up the carpet, now I have a moral obligation to solve it. And I don't know if I can, I don't know. I don't want to know what that number is. And I was talking to another, uh, technology vendor and they said that the biggest obstacle with the CTO was that the CTO has a nice cushy job. They don't want to put many fires out. His biggest obstacle was that. His technology would expose fires and they didn't want to do that. So that is a challenge. You mentioned you go to a lot of conferences. I suspect that education is a big part of your marketing thrust. How do you market a product where the biggest problem is often invisible to the customer? Why do your prospects are ignorant of the problem they have? The problem is they don't know why they have a problem. I suspect there's a lot of education. should like, there's a lot of FOMO involved in that. Aside from conferences, what's working for you? Where do you get the most traction? We obviously do a lot of content marketing. LinkedIn is a great source for us to basically educate people. We do a lot of podcasts and then our team will slice and dice the podcast and post informational pieces out. My following has been growing greatly. So people are interested. I just spoke to somebody, they're like, you know what, I'm just in the informational phase. So I'm like, ⁓ go to our website. We've got 300 blogs. We've got probably a couple dozen eBooks. We've got the internet's only. Ultimate guide to add fraud ebook that's 80 pages long. It's a great start to give you a bunch of general information about all different channels of marketing and everything else. So we do a lot of educational marketing or content marketing on our website, which does attract quite a few people. And they download the books and they download the articles and they read them. And then eventually they come back and they're like, you know what? Let me, let's run a traffic quality audit. Let's find out exactly where we are. It's gotten to a point where it's one of their main concerns that they want to deal with it. One of the realities for companies that are selling security related products or things that are proprietary or run behind the scenes is they often don't want to talk about it publicly. Things like case studies or testimonials, they're happy giving you the money every month and they value the service, but it's not something that they want to the competitors know or the fraudsters know. Do you have that problem with your customers? How do you get around that to build trust and credibility? I don't know how many, I think we got a couple dozen case studies up there with video. Most of our clients are happy to tell people about it every once in a while. And it's rare. You'll get one customer or two that it's working really good for me. I don't want my competitors known. So I don't want to talk about it. We keep NDAs with all of our clients, right? Cause the one thing they don't want us doing is saying, wow, so-and-so has 77 % fraud. Don't buy from that. That would be just really bad business ethics. do NDAs with all of our clients. So when we ask them for case studies, they give us the permission to published a case study and we'll do a recording. We'll write everything up. We'll send it to them so they can prove every word that's being said. And then we posted it. We actually had a client write a case study on us. They were so impressed with the software, the improvement in their KPIs. They did one and we're like, this is it. So we just linked to it. was great. But most people have no problem talking about it, referring new business to us, telling their colleagues about it. They generally don't tell the competitors about us. We'll tell their colleagues. I'll tell their colleagues that, Hey, I found something that's working really well for our company. At least go check these guys out. what keeps you at night when it comes to a Neura and what do you think keeps your customers awake at night? What keeps our customers awake at night is they're using our software to trust how they spend their millions of dollars in the digital marketing. Are we right? And especially the newer clients, right? They found this new piece of software. They're like, okay, I'm really sold on it. Let's run it. But they keep, in the very beginning, we find a lot of them test us. They don't. Exposes to all their traffic. like, oh, you try this traffic. What do you see? I'll give you an example. I had a client that was with us for a couple of years. Left us to go to another competitor because he was like, you know what? He did some testing and says, I can make 6 % more money using the other solution than using you guys. I'm like, that's because they're letting 6 % more fraud come through. And if you're okay selling fraud, that's a business decision, right? And he says, I'm not getting any client complaints, so I'm going to run with it. I said, okay. That was last year. Then that big. AI attack came out last year, late last year. And so I hit him up in January and sent them over the press release and said, ⁓ by the way, has your vendor been able to stop this new level of fraud? And I knew the answer was no. He goes, we got to talk. He runs another traffic quality audit. And the first question out of his mouth, once we get the data is why are you finding so much more fraud than the other guys? Turns out not only was he running this other vendor, but he was testing, I think two other vendors at the same time. And was trying to figure out because he was starting to get some complaints from his clients. So he comes back to me he goes, okay, what's going on with this software? It can't be right. You're catching fraud. Why is it so much fraud on this one? We pulled a report from our dashboard and our dashboard flat out told them 90 % of the tropics comes from Google proxy. Real people don't come from Google proxy. That's where bots come from. He goes, okay, that makes sense. Then he comes back to me a week later and he goes, not for nothing. But I have these two sources that I haven't gotten any complaints on. Your marketing was 20%, 25 % fraud and why? So we did some research and I had to actually go to our chief product officer, do a little research because there was nothing obvious in our dashboard. Came back and I said, all this traffic is coming from Android phones. And I went into the dashboard and showed him, it's all Android phones. But what's interesting is they're all being controlled by the same MacBook Pro. He goes, send me the paperwork. about your business in terms of growth, competitive threats, the evolving technology landscape, including AI. What keeps you at night when you look at your company's future? And obviously you want to grow, but what's top of mind for you in terms of making sure that you're staying relevant, that your technology continues to be innovative, that you continue to drive brand awareness, that you can outflank competitors. are things strategically that you're looking like as you try to grow this business? The software, I wrote the first version of the software back in 2005 was when I released the first version of the software. We've gotten a good game plan together and with this latest release that focused specifically on AI, they were really in a comfortable position with our software. don't sweat the software because I can see the numbers. if all of a sudden I started seeing the fraud rate on my dashboard across the entire company start to drop, then I would question what the hell's going on because it doesn't just do that. Right. So that would wake me up or that would keep me up at night, but I haven't seen that. But what keeps me up at night is how do I get to that next new client? How do I get in front of the people that have a problem that, and they don't know to look me up. It's not like they wake up in the morning and say, know what, I got a front problem. need a front solution. They don't do that, but they know they have a problem or they know they have an issue. Like how do I find that person? How do I get in front of that person to just, let me just do a traffic quality audit so you can peace of mind. You'll know exactly where you stand and then decide how you want to approach that. I'm not saying that you're a small company, but brand awareness and making people aware that you exist is the biggest challenge you've got from a marketing and sales perspective. Yeah. I'm just like, there's no lack of competition out there, even though it makes you sound like your technology is pretty good. When you think about how do I make people more aware that we exist? How big of a problem or how big of a challenge is that for you this year? It's always as a CEO of a company, it's no matter how well you're doing in the growth. And I got to say over the year of the last couple of years growth has been great. But I more. Because it's such a big problem now that we identified $2.5 billion in fraud, just from our client base. out of the 160 billion. I still got plenty of market share after. but we've identified $2.5 billion in fraud last year for our clients. So if they're taking our advice and then avoiding that and taking that marketing budget and moving it over to an audience that converts, they're seeing lifts. It's gotten to the point where we had clients that have been small clients when they first started and then they're large clients today. My one client that I know is out there actually actively now buying companies as part of their growth strategy because they've gotten so big. I spoke to the ⁓ CEO of the company and we had a nice little chat and he goes, look, this growth is in part to what you guys have been doing for us because we had the issues before you came. We were using one of your competitors. They just weren't really getting the job done. And we took you guys on, you guys have pointed us in the right direction every time. And because of that, we're now able to continue focusing on the actual KPI and know that, if it's not working, it's not because it's for us, because it's The copy needs to be changed. The audience needs to be changed. The keywords needs to be They can now make good decisions with good data and they can grow faster. So during the big math, back of the envelope math, you've got about less than 2 % of the ad fraud market right now. got 2.5 billion versus a header of 75 billion dollars. That's a lot of runway. That's a lot of room for growth. How do you get there? Big opportunity in front of you. You know it. How do get there? What's your big growth pillars? It's a huge opportunity. Like a lot of entrepreneurs, you got to seize it. What are some of the strategic? levers that you're going to pull this year. We decided this last year with our marketing strategy and our marketing game plan for the year, we have to up the shows that we're doing. So we're going after bigger clients because they have bigger budgets, which means we can go after bigger market share. Right. So we're going after bigger clients as part of our overall attack. We're looking at what's been working for us and doing more of that. But yet it's getting in front of people. I guess that you go to a trade show and you bring a handful of people. It's only so many people can get in front of it. I'm not trying to do this in volume. I'm trying to do some quality. I'm looking for the good quality clients that have big spends that we can, big hits that we can win those. We still have some trades shows that we do where we have the smaller businesses and I say smaller, but they still spend good money where our product still makes a whole lot of sense for them. That's great for us too, because we want, but you want a mix of smaller to midsize companies and midsize to big size companies. You want that whole mix in your client. Cause again, you never want to have a concentration of one area. You never want to have a of one client. But we've been trying to focus on steady growth, stable growth, and it's been good. But there's always more out there. Final question. When you look at the fraud landscape for 2026, what are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest things that companies should be worried about? What's that looming cloud out there that companies should be worried about? Year or two ago, I would have told you it's human fraud farms because you can license it for nine bucks an hour and they'll get past all the captures and bot detection because they're not a bot and they're real people and they can pass the captures just like every one of us. Now it's going to be cheaper to deploy AI bots because they're bots, right? And heck, if you don't know how to write an AI bot, guess what? Fraud GPT will do it for you. There's an application called Fraud GPT that will write the bot. And then when you're done writing the bot. You say, okay, how do I deploy this? It will give you step-by-step directions on how to deploy it. In order to become a fraudster, you don't have to be that high-end developer that you used to have to be to do it. You now be somebody who's comfortable with technology and you can work in AI chat and you can do everything you need to do that will walk you step-by-step through everything. So that's what companies need to be with. Where can people learn more about you and Indira? So best place to get me is probably LinkedIn, to find K-A-H-N. easy to find, you can go to anura.io, a-n-u-r-a dot i-o, and we have tons of research material there. What I tell everybody to do is find it for our free traffic quality audit. It's free, it has no obligation. The whole idea is to figure out how much of a fraud problem you have and where is it coming from. So at least you have insight to it right away, whether you work with us or not, at least you have that data and you know exactly what's going on. Because if it's not a fraud problem, then it's something else that you can look at. But stop guessing. Let's get some data behind it and find out for sure what it is. Free traffic, quality, got to get it. Thanks, Rich. And thanks to everyone for listening to another episode of Marketing Spark. If you found this conversation valuable, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Marketing Spark is focused on the ideas, strategies, decisions, and stories shaping modern B2B and SaaS companies with conversations designed to go beyond simple marketing advice and explore what drives growth, positioning, leadership, and a competitive advantage. You can reach me at mark at mark Evans dot ca. Can I put me on LinkedIn or visit marketing spark dot code to learn more about my consulting work, podcast and newsletter. Thanks again and I'll talk to you next time.