Ep 452: Building Trust Through Value

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to Marketproof Marketing, the podcast from the industry leaders at do you convert? Where we talk about the current and future state of marketing and online sales for builders and developers across the globe. We're not here to sell you, we're here to help you and to try and elevate the conversation. Welcome to another episode of Marketproof Marketing. Today I'm joined by Ryan Hilgartner, the director of sales and marketing for Tim O' Brien Home. And he's right about to reach his 10 year mark in the home building industry. Congratulations.

Speaker C: That's awesome. Yeah. Crazy. Uh huh.

Speaker B: It is crazy. You're too, you look too young.

Speaker C: I'm 41, so I'm just a little bit younger than you. But you know, we, we probably both feel younger than we are.

Speaker B: Uh, Ryan, give everyone a quick synopsis of Tim o'. Brien. If you're in kind of the region of the world that the company's located in, I'm sure you've heard of them or if you're into high performance performance construction, you probably are aware, but just give everyone a quick overview of the organization and how it functions.

Speaker C: Yeah. Tim O' Brien Homes. Next year we will be celebrating our 20th year. So I've kind of basically been with the company for half of those years. Tim started the company, you know, due to wanting to kind of fill a niche which really was that high performance homes, there was nobody in our market doing that. We're building in Madison and Milwaukee areas of Wisconsin. We like to do the industry specific term of saying that we're semi custom. We're streamlining to kind of lean a little bit more towards production, operating as production. But in the consumer's mind we're still going to be semi custom. Yeah. We're an innovative company that's always taking risks, doing cool things, which is why I love being here. I'll never work for another builder. I can confidently say that I'm um, Tim o' Brien Homes, as long as Tim will have me and yeah, do about 225 homes a year. We're probably going to push 250 this year though, so. But typically we've done about 225.

Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome. We're going to dig into kind of the progression and what I was just before we hit record, I told Ryan that it's, it's almost like the numbers in some cases have become in a good way, like boringly consistent. I mean everyone, if you're listening and you for any reason thought that sounded like a negative, go talk to your executive team and ask if they would be fine with consistency right now, month to month even. It's pretty remarkable some of the data that I was just looking at. So but let's take us back to you got in the business in 2017. What was your job when you were hired then and kind of how has it transitioned to what you're responsible for now?

Speaker C: Yeah, sure. I've been in traditionally been in marketing my whole career since college. Before that I was with a local, let's call it a local REI type store and was looking to move and I heard about Tim o' Brien Homes. Didn't know anything about the industry or anything, but heard it was a great place to work. And so when I saw a job posting for a marketing coordinator, even though I was already a marketing manager, I said, you know what, to work for a company that is known for great culture, I was like, I gotta just take it. So got to move into a, uh, marketing coordinator pretty quickly moved to director of marketing. I'd done that for quite a while and then started this year. We made a change with some of our structure of our company. So took on director of sales and marketing now. So working more closely with the sales managers. It's been a great ride so far, so love it.

Speaker B: That is a pattern that I'll come at it this way. Uh, people are often asking us, uh, well where should the online sales team live? Are they a, uh, marketing function or a sales function? Of course you're asking the M marketing guy. I'm like, are you serious? This is a customer service role and a sales role. But if we don't start with the service side, the experience doesn't really work. And there's also some anyway similar thing. People often ask the question, should I have a director of sales and marketing or a vice president of sales and marketing? And I mean uh, anything can work I think is first thing I would say. However, if you're going to combine those roles, it tends to work best when it comes with someone who's thinking as a marketer first. As long as the sales part of that title isn't a marketer thinking that sales is a super clean, straightforward sport. Like an understanding of there's things that I can, I can influence and control and manage. But I'm not going to try to pretend like I'm the best sales rep ever. And now, uh, you know, even though you've, you've come up from the marketing side, is that, does that track at all? What do you think about that?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, totally. For me, my role has just been to. We have two really incredible sales managers and my role is to help them not say, oh, you know what, this is how you had been doing it. Now this is how we're going to do it. Now. I'm not here to reinvent the wheel. We've, we've had, you know, consistent success for quite a while, so we're doing some things that are working well. So why wouldn't I kind of come in and try to mess with that again?

Speaker B: That's just not my experience of watching so many people be promoted over the last 11 years especially is oftentimes people think, okay, now I've been given permission to take control. And I think that's where if you get deep enough in marketing, you realize again, there's things you can control, things you can't, and things you manage. And that's just not a typical thought process of now. I'm just going to keep helping them versus I've been given permission to like, change everything the way I think it should be done.

Speaker C: Yeah, 100%. And you know, we pride ourselves in our culture here too. So, I mean, it's a good fit. There's nothing there, so it's. It's just a great time.

Speaker B: Yeah. The other thing that is coming to mind too is the, uh, again, that rather boring word I use, consistency. I do think that is the thing that generally sales organizations can benefit from the most. It's. And so that's it all like kind of lines up together as we're just talking this through. It's like, okay, they're. I'm there to support, I'm there to guide. But, but a lot of that comes from like, helping them stay organized, focused on the goal, removing barriers, but also consistency. And I wonder, let's see, you've been, you've been in charge of sales and marketing since beginning of this year. Is there a sense that, like, you're just trying to improve that consistency of performance?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think the way that we've been approaching it is you can get in the weeds very easily as a sales manager role. There's, there's always the. It's the toughest role in any organization as a sales manager. So really it's about listening and trying to come up with solutions that'll help. Our whole organization has sort of been what. What we've been focusing on thus far.

Speaker B: Yeah. So good. Okay. Tim o' Brien is also, I believe, one of the first, if not the first builder to kind of go all in on some different technological fronts too. We're going to come back to the sales and marketing consistency and performance. But I just want to take a quick segue to, uh, what you were talking about before. If you're not familiar with the organization, always kind of consistently pushing forward, I'm sure sometimes other builders in your cohorts are kind of like, why are you going that far? Like, aren't you happy with the progress that you've made in lots of different areas? But what was it about Hierarch when you first saw it that. That you were like, oh, this has potential and. Or is worth the risk to go down this road?

Speaker C: Sure. We started speaking with them pretty early. Like, early enough where they were not doing any basements and they were not thinking too much about how this could work for a semi custom builder. Tim himself is pretty well connected with Scott Sadam. Connor Sadam works with Hierarch, and when he asked his father, like, who should I talk to, like, what he said, the first people. Tim o' Brien homes. Because I know that they are innovative and they'll take a look and, and look at it with you guys. So we, and we talked with them for probably a year before we finally signed on the dotted line to work with them. And it's been a few years now. I mean, really for me.

Speaker B: M. And before. Before you keep going too, too quick, Ken, because the marketers in the audience may not be as familiar. Give a quick synopsis of Scott Saddam, the legend, uh, what he does and kind of what his role is, and then what Hyar does as well, before we go too much further.

Speaker C: Sure. Scott has worked with us on a few Lean Blitzes, so he is sort of like, you know, the godfather of, like, Lean building, efficient building, trying to look at your plans and come up with solutions to be more efficient so that the home is easier to build for the trades, cheaper for you. Ultimately, that ends up passing on savings to the consumer. So we'd worked with him for quite a while, um, on doing all those type of things. And so that's sort of where that connection was. I know I kind of slightly name dropped there, but, you know. Yeah.

Speaker B: If you've been around in the industry, I mean, he's godfather's a good term. Like, he's just one of the names that you would know, especially if you've been around as long as. As long as I have since 03. All right, and then what is Hierarch doing for Tim and Brad? What does the product look like? People are not familiar with it.

Speaker C: Yeah. And so Hierarch Basically is like an all in one drafting, sales, marketing solution. There's also estimating involved. We were against so early in on it that they didn't even have that portion built out. So we've not totally built that portion out. But what got me when we were initially having those conversations with them was everybody wants to see their home. Everybody wants to do all the cool visualization stuff. You know, we talk about how, uh, everybody's used to watching HGTV and like, look at what this designer can do for you. We're going to knock down these walls and this is what it's going to look like. And buyers have that in their brain that like, I'm going to build this home that's over half a million dollars and you're telling me I can't even see it before you build it. And prior to that there were, there's a lot of solutions. I mean really good other companies that do visualization. But to me, the part that gets it is that it's all connected. So if we make a major change, I can give this quick example. Two, uh, story foyer was in one of our plans. We realized that that was pretty expensive for not that much of a wow factor. So took that out of the plan. If I had done this with, you know, Druid and Revit and we worked with a third party to do any sort of visualization for that, I'd have to go back to them, export all these files. They'd charge me $10,000, $15,000, whatever it is, uh, to redo this entire sort of sales and marketing tool. Whereas we do it in Hyark, we make the change, push it goes out. I've got Showroom Intro is the product that hirec has that's sort of on our website as like the consumer facing. And that's already updated now just. We updated it with a click. Now that's updated. So really streamlines a lot of things. So again, an all in one platform of drafting through marketing and sales.

Speaker B: That's awesome. M. That's awesome. So that's just again one example of the different ways that you've pushed forward. Okay, I'm gonna hop back to the efficiency part of things. Cause the other thing that Ryan is. If you don't know Ryan, like his emotional intensity is not often super high. I'm saying that again admirably. Cause people say the same thing about me. They're like, Kevin, are you like get excited. I'm like, I am excited. I'm excited that we're getting results. But I'm not. I'm not going to do a jig either. Is there why it doesn't seem like. I mean, we've worked with you for many years. I don't think I've ever heard you raise the banner or cry like we need to forex our traffic or attention as a core strategy. I don't know that I've ever even talked to you about it. Why? Because it's never come up and. But your website traffic, I mean, over the past several years has been relatively again, stable. Like the level is what the level is. Where does that come from? Why don't you look for more and more and more attention as a solution like you mentioned?

Speaker C: I mean, I feel like it has been really good. We've had the opportunity to work with you and do you convert for probably six or seven years, probably, I'd say. And it's just been steady. Eddie, we work with you guys on, you know, during our monthly marketing and coaching calls of like, okay, do we need to shift some ad dollars because we're struggling over here. I am traditionally not a numbers Google Analytics data person. I love that for our organization. But that's not how m my brain works. I'm more of the creative, the visual, the outside the box person. So it's, it's been incredible that we can rely on you guys for some of that. But as long as we're kind of achieving our ultimate like sales goal numbers, as long as we're hitting sales goal we're exceeding, then there's never been a reason to all of a sudden panic and say, oh, we gotta just blow up everything. And you know, but there's been times where we say, man, we're really sucking wind in this neighborhood. Like, we gotta just try something and then we'll do something creative and we'll work with you, uh, guys.

Speaker B: Okay, I figured it out then from what you were just saying. First of all, shout out to Jackie and Keonte who meet with you in the team monthly. They're awesome. What you just said though, is very, again, it might not feel different because you're in your own place all the time. So many leaders, uh, especially at a VP of sales and marketing level or higher, are thinking holistically it is, how do I fix my company, how do I fix this sub market? And what you just kind of at the end got to was community by community analysis or thinking about a, uh, community on its own. Yes, the company name and brand and holistic systemic approaches to things do need to be considered. But what you're Saying is we're trying to solve. And this, there's this underlying understanding of if I fix each individual community, the company is fixed.

Speaker C: Correct. That's how we've always treated things. I think maybe earlier on in my career and maybe before we were working with you guys when there were Maybe I think 2017, 2018, there were some tricky years and there was like let's do promotions and let's do all this. And it was a little bit more of a knee uh, jerk reaction. But if you're able to sort of build the trust with other leaders in the organization and it's like as long as you're delivering the results, the trust is there. And that's where it's like let me handle, I'm gonna, you know, whether it's, I gotta talk with do you convert on our monthly coaching call or we need to strategize internally and then communicate it to you guys and bring up new creative ideas. We do that whenever we need to but we're always just looking at where are we looking at? Like when we're looking at sales data internally we're normally more, a little bit more focused on where are we year to date in sales by community and that's showing where we need to kind of spend more of our time and energy.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. And I just went back through improves the site again to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I mean I'm just going to act like a buyer. What, what is your current incentive, Ryan? I don't, I don't see, I don't see any 3.99. Now's the last chance. There's no pop ups like screaming at me that I'm uh, what is. Something's wrong here. You, you must not be selling enough homes.

Speaker C: Yes, thank goodness. And trust me, over the years there has been times when it's, you know, we're not, we're um, we're not sitting here saying like, well we're crushing it 24 7. Everything's always amazing. So there will be times where everybody's kind of like we're a little bit behind on sales. Like do we need to do an incentive? I stand firm again, you gotta gain the trust in the first place. But no, we don't do incentives. We don't try to chase what the other builders around us are doing. I think our sales team, I can tell you this, appreciate it. Because we're not changing the incentive. We're not confusing buyers prospects. It's we're offering you a great value. Come Talk to us if you need that incentive, whatever. At the very end, they can give them $10,000 if they need to, but we're not.

Speaker B: The team has a little bit of back pocket ability to do what they

Speaker C: need to do just for you for the, let's get this over the line. But like the value is there.

Speaker B: Yeah, well. And the mere fact that you're not leading with it means that the sales team can do that. At the end of the day, it is wild to me. I mean it's not because again, I've lived it and I know it's right, but I just know 90% of uh, the audience listening, like 350 people, Ryan, are like, wait, did he just say his salespeople like not having incentives? And they like the fact that it doesn't change all the time because their sales team is constantly saying like, can you change up the incentives? So I have a closing strategy for the month or, and I'm not going to get into specifics, but your team consistently is closing 20% of appointments held without broadcasting giant incentives, mortgage buy downs etc and at times as high as 30%. Again, people who don't live it think that you're making stuff up. They would be like, Kevin, is that they're like manipulating the numbers. That's just to make them look good or like keep someone off their case. It can't, it can't be right.

Speaker C: Yeah. And again, it's not like we weren't there before we were and oh, so

Speaker B: you did in like years prior do incentives, you're saying when I first started,

Speaker C: maybe the first two or three years we did, and by the time we wrestled and wrangled to what is this great incentive going to be by the time we got it and then maybe could even broadcast it to anybody, the expiration date was already hitting. So then we didn't even give it time to. It just, it creates uncertainty, I think with prospects and it all it does is like, well, you gave me this up, uh, front. Everybody feels like they need to get a deal anyway. So it's like you gave me this now. Well, this is still more expensive than I thought it was going to be. So can you do one more thing? I mean you did that one thing, that's fine. But like what else are you going to do? Because that's for everybody. What are you going to do for me? Yeah, whereas they don't have that conversation. And I've got, I've got people, even though we just said they've got the back pocket thing there's probably half the sales team just says, I don't even want to ever bring that up. Like, I never bring that up.

Speaker B: What it's kind of like, I mean, this is a terrible analogy, but that's what I do. You know, if you're really tired and you're like, I could take a caffeine pill. I mean, maybe in college I did. I don't know. But like, yeah, that's a slippery slope. You use that thing once and then every time you're just a little bit tired, you're like, I need that. And, and then you become addicted in some sense. And I think that's. There's this mental mountain that your team at some point crossed in the transition to say, wait a minute, this whole idea of selling from strength is a real thing. It's not just a thing that my managers are telling me, oh no, trust me, you're going to like it. But they've, they somehow it became super real to them that having supreme confidence in the value of your product. Uh, not even a good word choice in my. The value of your homes and your communities and the home sites that you're building on. Like, the value is right. And that's the thing that you might have fantastic sales training and sales processes. Uh, and I'm sure you do and reinforce that. But when I see a company consistently closing 20% or more of their appointments, there is a part of that that just says the value stack is aligned. Like every time that customer takes one step forward, I mean, to have 70ish percent of your leads go to an appointment means that when you're getting a lead, there's already value alignment of. I'm pretty certain this is a potential SOL solution for me. And then kind of all the way around.

Speaker C: Totally. And it does align with, with the sales training that we do. The sales training that we do is much more psychological. And getting the buyers to be confident in making their decision, that's all you're there for. You're not there to sell them on the countertops or that we have ERVs, which people are like, what is an ERV? But that's, you know, part of our high performance homes. That's not why people are going to buy. At the end of the day they're going to buy because you're giving them confidence in their decision to take a risk and buy a new home. That's going to cost them in our markets at least $650,000.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's in comparison, like, what is the average resale how much of a premium is Tim o' Brien typically asking in comparison to similar square footage from Builder X or resale Home X?

Speaker C: Yeah, a lot of times if we're in the same neighborhood or a neighboring community, we might be, uh, you know, for more of the production people that we go up against, you know, we might be 50 to $100,000 more than them. Um, so that was a lot of chatter when sales were struggling, which again, probably last time sales were probably struggling was probably 2018. That was. The chatter was like, well, look at, they're this price. And it's like, well, yeah, our home's way nicer though. So I don't know, throw this in there. You know, Pete Lang, who I work with, and he now is our onboarding sales trainer, he just onboards our sales team and gets them confident through, you know, graduating to be a sales pro at our company and supports them.

Speaker B: That's awesome.

Speaker C: He always says, you know, at the end of the day, do people want to say, I got the cheap one or did I get the nice one? And that's, that's we, we really push that into our team. Like, you want, you want to go have, you know, have people over to your house for Thanksgiving, say, yeah, I got the, I got the cheap one. I got the cheapest one over here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Or did you get the nicest one? Because I think that our value is there to be considered the nicest one. There's other. Every builder is building a similar ish product, but I think, I think our, the way that we kind of holistically approach it, I think we have the best value. Somebody's going to build a fancier, nicer home.

Speaker B: Yeah, I just better finishes. I mean, again, Ryan's very calm at this, but I want you all to just hear that, uh, I mean, everyone close your eyes. If you're not driving, imagine that you work in a model home in Happy Acres, and across the street, your competitor is, for the same square footage, 50 to $100,000 more expensive than you are. And how do you feel as a salesperson? I know I'd be like, oh, yeah, this is awesome. I mean, my value should be way easier to observe because it's there in black and white. It's way less expensive. And so I think most salespeople, most marketers even, would be like, I would rather have the less expensive option. But now, in your make believe scenario here, knowing that if 10 people walk in the door at, uh, your competitor, two to three of them are buying and when they come through Your door somewhere around 1 out of every 10 are buying. Like it's almost this weird like inception style. It has to drive some of your competition just absolutely nutty. Especially other semi custom builders or like folks who haven't blended the semi custom production methodology the way you're describing. I just, I can definitely picture certain competitors being like, these folks are doing some kind of witchcraft.

Speaker C: Yeah. And again, I think that that also goes to. I mentioned sales training earlier. I think that's why we spend so much time and energy on sales training. Is that to me, if you're just the price point builder, your sales team can just be like an order taker. Like I'm just going to take your order because it's here and it's the cheapest one. So if they want to do it, this is their option.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Where I think we win is our sales team is, is really good and we train on this to ask the best questions, to do the best discovery. And we've been working, I mentioned you guys, we've been working with you guys for probably seven years. Our sales trainer is, uh, Chad San with Cannonball and he is really on fire right now with that type of training. And our team is just eating it up. It's good if we can ask the best questions. When they go to our competitors, they'd be like, well, they didn't ask like any of this. They must not know what they're doing and then they'll come back. Yeah.

Speaker B: Or, or they don't even care. Like people who care ask questions.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: It's like, oh, that's the one you want. Okay. Not like, why do you want it? What, like what, what problem are you trying to improve? Like there's just lack of curiosity means lack of care in many ways. And that translates to as well. Okay. So we, we've talked about sales and marketing. We've talked about building science, which, you know, Tim kind of, if anything now I feel like you hear Tim the man, not Tim the company. Uh, you think building science. And he's probably giving a talk or doing some type of presentation on, on building science and is super passionate about that. What's kind of the next area you are focused on making better.

Speaker C: So this is a good one. And I could talk about this for a really long time about a year and a half ago. And this was not our original creative idea, but I still think it's somewhat original and creative in our industry because we're always behind other industries and a lot of different things. With tech, we were inspired by Some of our builder partners and some of our networking groups that had gotten a data and analytics team within their company. And so we uh, we hired for that position, soon, realized the value right away, and then uh, hired a second person. So we currently have a team of two. That's what it looks like it'll be for a while. Two people in our data and analytics. So they're kind of building data lakes with all of our data for all the major systems. So like our ERP for our CRM, we use HubSpot and then uh, Hiarc is a lot of our drafting, sales and marketing, whether we're talking about our Avid ratings stuff, all of that stuff into the data lake and then being able to take that data, put it through Power Bi, make dashboards. So a lot of time and energy on getting rid of old manual reports. It's instantly there. And then working really hard on having all of the systems talk to each other. So we've worked really hard the past year, year and a half on doing integrations. We have a really cool integration that we worked on to get Hierarch data pushing to and from HubSpot. So if a lead is in HubSpot, we have even like custom cards on our HubSpot where it can show the last three home plans that that uh, customer or prospect has done in Hierarch. So they go in for their first meeting, they can see that they all, they were interested in these three home plans. They're saved right here. They're right there for you. So working on streamlining, we're having a little bit of trouble still with the ERP and that's its own issue, but that's fine. But that's sort of what's been next is how do we stay ahead on just kind of having all of our data, you know, integrated all throughout so that we're not having this sheet here, sales team, enter them here, here, here and here, please. We're working on. And we've kind of been about halfway there, but it's a long process. But I think that if people are not thinking about doing any of these things like that, we're going to have problems.

Speaker B: Well, again, it's so fun, man. The number of organizations that probably do four times your revenue and don't have a single data analytics person on their team and you're too. It just reminds me when we were doing 400 and. But at the time originally it was 250 homes a year. We had one online salesperson. Then when we got to like 3, 25. We had 2 and then we got 3 and we were trying to get to 4. And everyone's like, why do you have so many people in online sales? I was like, because they, they interact with 90% of the people who end up buying a house. And I completely agree with you. The stitching together of different systems is one of the things that AI tools are helping to unlock tools more broadly. But like, it was one thing to, we've talked about data lakes, M and I know someone rather famous who used to always tease me. They're like, tell people about that lakehouse thing you're talking about. It's like, data Lake. He's like, yeah, data Lakehouse. That's what I want. Yeah, it's one thing to talk about it and it's another to make it more accessible and like usable. And I definitely am seeing a trend of people combining that data. And even when we say data and analytics, most people think we're talking about Google Analytics. And they're like, well, I have, I have analytics. We look at analytics all the time. We're talking about comprehensive data analytics. And actually, in my experience, when I worked in home building organizations, NVR's finance team really functioned like a, uh, data analytics team. Yes, they were looking at accounting, but you could show them any set of data and they'd be like, well, that seems off, or what's going on there? And it was just an incredible tool to have access to a team that was constantly looking at the data and analytics of the division of the business and not just thinking about accounting. So I, um, agree with you. I think it's going to be a big unlock for a lot of people and especially executive teams where you have teams of experts, which most organizations do. Like right now, it's pretty dangerous to let an executive who's not really familiar with marketing or has come up through marketing get into the granular details of how digital marketing works because they will have wrong assumptions, wrong thoughts. But if you can kind of protect that by having this more well rounded perspective of all the data and how it works, then I think we can start to become more fair game to have like, executives being able to ask kind of straightforward questions and have the system spit back out straightforward answers with context that they might not know inherently.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, that's really the main focus, I mean, of our, uh, company, besides, always wanted to make sure we're hitting our sales goals, always wanting to give our customers an extraordinary experience. We need to be on top of our data. And obviously, you know, everybody does get sick of talking about AI, but like, you need to stay on top of that. And so that's where our kind of mission critical things that we're looking at right now is at.

Speaker B: Yeah, it'll be interesting because we have one of the most notable experts on artificial intelligence and data science speaking at the summit and one of the internal conversations, her name is Brittany Mueller. People are gonna like, might be sick of hearing about AI, like, do we really wanna have someone come in as a world renowned expert on the subject and our people are just gonna be like, more of this. But the answer is no. Like we can still talk about it the right way. Not the it's an answer box. It's like it's a tool and you can get real work done. And so, yeah, we completely agree. You gotta keep your eye on it, gotta keep working at it. But there is also, like, you're saying this, um, fatigue that's setting in in a lot of organizations too.

Speaker C: I know, I almost don't like saying it because everybody is sick of it. I'm sick of hearing it. But like, I also know that we have to be on top of it. So I am going to still talk about it. I am still going to care about it. I am sad that I won't be able to be there for this. Um, I think the last six years, every single time there's either another summit that I already had a previous booking, or this year we have like our annual planning meeting and I'm like, uh, no, it's okay.

Speaker B: You know what, we don't record any of the sessions, Ryan, but I will record all of those key sessions for just you. Just you. I'll sit there with my phone, I'll get a feed into the audio board and I'll send you.

Speaker C: Perfect.

Speaker B: Well, Ryan, thanks so much for taking the time talking with us. I know you're mostly like to be kind of more behind the scenes person, but really appreciate you letting people know that like this stuff is real. I think that's it's super important for especially the next generation of marketers coming in to hear like, oh, not every company is like my company.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, I was really excited. I've listened to the podcast for a long time, so it's cool that, you know, um, I probably won't listen to myself because everybody loves the way that they sound. But yeah, it was really awesome catching up with you, Kevin. Thank you.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Thanks again.

Speaker A: Thanks for joining us for another episode episode of Market Proof Marketing. Can't wait for the next one or looking to connect with other new home marketers, become a member of our private community DYC All Access, which is 100 free and always will be. Get exclusive content not shared anywhere else, access to private events, and the ability to join a marketing impact group with other marketers like you around the country. Visit our link in the show notes or members.duconvert.com to join. All opinions expressed by Kevin Oakley, Beth Russell, Julie Jarnigan, Jackie Lipinski and their castmates are solely their own. Now get to work and make sure your company is market proof.