CTRL+ALT+LEAD: Navigating Tech, Teamwork & Turmoil with Dr. John Morgan

Speaker A: So this is what it feels like to talk first. I like it. So Today, our guest, Dr. John Morgan, is really interesting for. For one thing that stuck out to me is he moved between districts during COVID So he opened up two schools back up from COVID and, uh, you know, we all kind of scrambled as tech directors during COVID to figure out how best to support teachers and students and families. And he did it twice. And one, he kind of inherited it in the process and had to refine it, and the other, he came up with his own way. So I'm looking forward to hearing where that. Where those two forces collided.

Speaker B: Yeah, well. And, um, I mean, Covid provided so many challenges, um, but also some interesting opportunities. I'm fascinated to see how those, uh, were similar or different across the two districts and kind of how he was able to grow. Right. So this will be good. I'm looking forward to this. Um, welcome to, um, another episode. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Learning through technology at K12 podcast. We have a very special guest today. We have Dr. John Morgan, the director of technology at, uh, Mide School District. Uh, John, welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker C: Hey, how's it going? So, um, my name is John Morgan. I was a, uh, chemistry teacher for about 10 years in Capistrana Unified, and then, uh, through a series of fortunate events, got to become a Director of Ed Tech and then a CTO in that district and then transitioned over to Menifee, uh, uh, during, uh, during COVID So I've been here for about four years as the Director of Technology, so. Well, thank you.

Speaker B: You changed districts during COVID Is that what you're going to say, Baba?

Speaker A: No, no, I was going to say that he found that the events were fortunate that led to him being Director of Technology and not unfortunate. So we got the right guy. He's happy to be where he's at, so we know we're ahead already. This guy thinks this is a good thing to be Director of Technology.

Speaker C: I bet not Always got to have a positive spin.

Speaker B: All right, so. So you've had the chance to lead two different districts at a time of, like, tremendous, absurd change. Right. Share an experience that you are excited about or something that has gone really well for your teams. Because a whole bunch could have gone wrong.

Speaker C: Well, I think the best part is that a whole bunch did go wrong.

Speaker B: Um, the best part, he's happy to be a tech director. And the best part is a whole bunch did go wrong.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're going to fit a whole Bunch, you're going to fit right in.

Speaker C: I. I know, right? No, a lot of stuff went wrong, but the, you know, the, the team didn't break. It was. Yeah, I think the team came out stronger on the other side. It was, we gotta see skills used that weren't always used. Um, you know, especially in this area, I mean, Southern California. We were providing tech support in English and in Spanish, um, not only to our employees, but to our families. We got to reopen schools. I got to do that twice. That was a lot of fun. Um, but it was a really interesting time. We got to, uh. You got to see the creativity of a technology department, which are two things that a lot of people for a long time didn't understand are, are really mixed. A lot of times people dissociate technology and creativity. And when you bring those things together, you truly get a lot of magic. And I think Covid brought out a lot of the, the creativity with technology.

Speaker A: So, you know, that's, uh, interesting to put it, because I think most people would think technology and creativity are opposite ends of the spectrum. And, uh, I might reflect that. Uh, but. So I'd like to know a couple of the creative things you did and, uh, maybe if they, ah, took root, um, and have led to like that, that sort of, um, the hottest fires. Right, so what did you do that was creative and worked well for you?

Speaker C: Well, it. So starting in Capistrano, Unified. So we were supporting. So that's a district of 50,000 students and we had 16 technicians. So right there, if you're looking, if you're a math person, you know that, uh, that math doesn't match. Um, so when you have a hundred thousand people that could possibly call for support, we had to come up with, we came up with a, you know, a different style of ticket that we called, you know, we have in tech, in technology, you got the level one ticket, the level two ticket and things per. We came up with what's a level zero ticket? And we had to come up with that to, uh, okay, who can handle a level zero ticket? And a lot of that was, hey, how do you get to Google Classroom? Well, do you have to call a technician to figure out who can get to Google Classroom? So we, we did a lot of, how do you distribute the tech support out to the school sites? How do you multiply what it is that you can do? So we were training site secretaries, we were training, um, anybody who was coming in to answer phones out at the school site so that we could multiply our efforts and Then some of those higher level tickets that were actually required of technicians, that those could go, that those would actually make it to the technicians so that we weren't clogging up the phone lines because we had 16 phone lines and like I said, a hundred thousand possible parents that could be calling in. Um, we just had to be creative with how we were doing things. So again, just slightly different ways of doing things. Getting to Menifee was, it was a little bit different, um, just different problems, different solutions. But yeah, that was, I think those were some of the things that we had to do is just think differently about what actually is considered tech support, is everybody had to level up their tech game just a little bit.

Speaker B: So, so I want to dive into something that was a little more tangential to something that you were saying at the beginning. And, and so, uh, it seemed like there was some pride in the growth that happened with your team associated with some of the creativity that was demanded of your team. Tell me a little bit about. Uh, I, because I don't think everybody sort of saw Covid as a growth opportunity. They saw it as something that they had to respond to. Right, but, but I, but I heard you kind of tap into that. Uh, first off, am I right? Did you see it as a growth opportunity? And if so, how did you leverage that challenge to grow your two respective teams?

Speaker C: Well, and I kind of want to focus this more on my Menifee team because, um, I will tell you, it's hard to see growth when you're in the middle of it. At that point, you just kind of see the pain of working through in the day to day. But on the Menifee side of things, I got to go in at the middle of it and then I've got to see how the team has grown since then. But here there's a team of, you know, inside the office there's a team of, um, about five people, uh, supporting 12,000 students. And so there's five people. None of us have the answer, which is really nice to go into. And I think that's another power of, of, of a tech team. You walk into an area and I think people in technology tend to understand that we don't have all the answers. Because as soon as you have all the answers, they change again. Yeah, our profession is, our profession is learning the answers or finding the answers. And so we're really good at, I heard the term scrumming and you know, things like that as far as project management. But we come together, we throw ideas out there. But in Coming together and throwing ideas out there and then valuing the answers that are coming from. You know, regardless of where you are in the org chart, if you value an answer that has some merit and build off of it, you can see somebody on your team light up. You can see them more willing to throw out an answer, but then you can see how that person changes and grows as they see how that answer can change or how, when that's enacted, how they can go from being somebody who throws out the crazy idea to being somebody who can lead a project. So we have our, uh, our level two people went from, hey, we, you know, here's how we can get Chromebooks into every classroom to, hey, here's how I can lead a team of eight to 10 people in transitioning the technology around the district, because I can send them out to the school site and say, hey, I need you to manage this team at the school site of getting the technology in there. They said, well, how do you want me to do it? I don't know. Here's an idea, but do it. Uh, you know, that idea may not make sense. You won't know until you get there. And so they come back and they go, hey, you told me to do it this way. Yeah, that wasn't working. So this is the way that we did it. And I'm like, sounds like it was a great idea because it worked, you know, and so you just see the confidence build and things like that. And so I think it was, um. Comfort with discomfort is one of the things that really grew through Covid, but also the growth in confidence and the ability to go from I threw an idea on the table to I threw an idea on the table, and it turned into something. So everything kind of leveled up a little bit, which I know isn't a huge thing, but at the same time, it's a huge thing.

Speaker B: You know, any way you look at it, it's a huge thing. Right? Because if you can't, uh. I love the phrase that you said comfort with discomfort, right? Because the world of technology is by its very nature always changing. So if you don't have. And I don't think it's human nature to be comfortable with discomfort, and I don't think it's human nature to be in a position of always sort of seeking that growth. So, you know, when. When you say it's not a big thing, it's really a pretty spectacular thing. That learning and growing isn't a big thing in your team.

Speaker C: Yeah, I. I get that. I think it's you know, I know we talked kind of before this about the idea of, like, the doctorate. One of the things I learned with that was you have to be okay with what they termed as disequilibrium, because every time you learn something new, um, you know, you're. In order to learn something new, your preconception has to be challenged. You know, it's almost like you have to be proven that what you currently know is incorrect. And a lot of people don't like that. I. I, um, personally really like that idea. I like questioning what I currently know. And I think this group, like, they know. It's hilarious. Every time I. Every time we talk, I'm like, look, if all we do. I was like, I. They call them Willy Wonka ideas, so they call all my ideas Willy Wonka ideas. And every time they'll look at each other, be like, willy Wonka's back. But they know that if they agree with Willy Wonka that we will go in a direction. What they also know is Willy Wonka does not always point in the right direction. So they're allowed to argue with me, they're allowed to disagree with me to make sure that we go in the right direction. So, yeah, if all they're going to do is agree with me, we will not go in the right direction. And so it's been very, um. I think that's the other thing is everybody's open to disagreeing, which I think is a very important part of the idea of throwing an idea on the table. And, uh, it's another piece of the growth thing is you kind of have to be open to that, but it's a vulnerable, you know, from a leadership standpoint, there's vulnerability in that because your ideas are not always good, and you have to be okay with that. Especially, you know, as you pointed out, I am a tech director who is a chemistry teacher. And, you know, so I have. I have people who work for me who know way more about technology. I.

Speaker A: If.

Speaker C: If I were to configure a switch, uh, our department, our district would be in severe trouble.

Speaker A: Well, Jeff, John, as you talk, I'm going to pull an Alex here and I'm going to talk for a little longer than I normally do. Not. Well, not an Alex. I'm going to pull off a mini Alex, which is kind of redundant because Alex is kind of a mini me. Right. Little Alex there. So the one you and I come from, the same thing there. Uh, have a. I have a good bit of chemistry in my background myself, so we could talk about organic chemistry. Whenever you're ready to talk about carbons and hydrogens and, and oxygens. Um, but I'm really interested in this question, as I had in my mind, like Alex asked you, like, what's going. Right. What's, you know, what's happening there that you like. And it sounds like you, you gave us, uh, all the things that have gone wrong and how you've made them good. So my question is, what are the challenges? What's, what do you struggle with? But I'm interested to hear how you put it, because it sounds like the stuff you struggled with you turned into wins. So what are you struggling with today that's going to be a win tomorrow?

Speaker C: I, I, Yeah, that's a, it's a tough one, I think, you know, none of us know. But at the same time, I also think that scope creep is, is huge. You know, it. We used to joke that anything with a button becomes technologies.

Speaker A: So we, we joked if it plugged into a wall, it was technology. Yeah, that was, that's, that's technology there.

Speaker B: Like, electrolytes will start old envelopes.

Speaker A: How is that my problem?

Speaker C: Right. But, uh, and, and then I also think there's the uncertainty of, you know, and there's scope creep that comes from two sides. One side is scope creep that comes from the other side. The other departments in the district, um, you know, you have, there's more need for data, there's more need for other things. Um, and then, uh, other wishes, other wills of other departments. And then there's the scope creep that comes from. There are threats that come from the outside. There's more threats to our data. Um, our data is very valuable. We have students that have untapped resources. Their Social Security numbers are yet to be tainted. So, you know, there's, there are state agencies that are after those pieces of data. Um, and they know the type of funding that we receive, so they know that there's a vulnerability there. Um, and then, you know, there is some uncertainty in the funding. Um, so I think those are some of the challenges that there are right now. And I think that's the piece that we're, you know, there, there is that uncertainty. That is a challenge. It's, there's a lot of things that we look at in, in ed tech and in cyber security, or I, uh, will say in ed tech, and we look at me, okay, what's the, what is the, you know, we look at what's compliance and what's innovation, and when you hit bad times, I hate to say it but sometimes you say, okay, I have to give up some of the innovation just to get to go with compliance.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: In, in reality, sometimes you find that's when you find the truly innovative things to do because you find a way to innovate with the free tools. Well, how does that work with the cyber security?

Speaker B: I mean? Um, so uncertainty, I think, like sort of drives all of those, right. It's technology is impacting every facet of life, right. So the, the job of the technology department is, is constantly growing, right. And techno and whether it be new things or technology taking over existing things. Right. Like, for example, facilities oftentimes used to manage phone systems. Right. And then they became technological, more technological systems, uh, you know, IP driven. And then once they became IP driven, well then suddenly they became the, the responsibility of the tech department. Right. So you never really know what's going to be thrown on you from year to year. The other thing that you mentioned is budget. And I think budget uncertainty has probably never been worse than it is right now. There's just a lot of things going on and, and people don't know, you know, gosh, even if something was budgeted, you might not actually get that revenue. Right. And so, so there's, there's challenges there. And then cybersecurity and a threat that is growing substantially and a lot of the funding kind of isn't there, um, you know, to, to do with that. I think those are, I think a lot of schools are dealing with those same kinds of challenges.

Speaker A: I, I like that both of you had, uh, like it's come to. Usually Alex doesn't have to think like, he just, he's ready to talk. And John, the bit that we met before we started recording and since we've been like, it's obvious that you've been through a lot, so you have a lot of answers, like right there at the front of your mind. But that this question had you both, like, you both rubbed your foreheads. You both were like, how do I put this? So I, I want, I want to, um. We covered a lot right there, so I want to pick just one of those and we'll move through those perhaps a little bit. And I, um. The scope creep is a big one for me and I think there that it's related to like, Alex and you were talking about cyber security because it's both ways. When I started as a director of technology in 2004, um, I was 11 then. Just in case anybody asks, hack dead. Um, you know, like Alex said the phone system was maintenance, security uh, cameras weren't on the network and now we've got security cameras on the network, we've got access control. You can't get into a building without a network. You can't. And we have thousands of devices where we didn't have to. We didn't even have wireless back then when I was 11 years old. Hard to believe. Um, that has all fallen onto the technology department leaders plate. And how. So there's a challenge there and I guess I want your affirmation or how you're handling that or if it's still a struggle, there's a challenge in bringing skill set to that. Right. Suddenly you have to. How do you, how do you set up call trees on phone systems? That's not something you ever had to do before. How do you manage the apps on personal phones now that you have a cloud based phone solution? Or, or what are you doing about the privacy of those video cameras now they're in the cloud. Um, just some of the things you can do. Uh, how do you build those skill sets? And then on the other side, as you said externally and when you said state agency, I assume you mean like state sponsored attacks, not that the uh, the franchise board is looking for student information from you sort of thing. But then how do you get those skill sets? You know, somebody's repairing a Chromebook, isn't defending your, you know, your, what they call your, your attack, um, surface. Uh, so what are you doing? Or what do you think you can do?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it's, I think it's interesting you automate where you can. I mean, and I know that's been kind of, uh, the mantra of tech departments for a while. Let's automate what we can do. We don't want somebody manually doing uploads every night, which seems unrelated. That's been one side of the house. But now I've got a network engineer who's got, who gets, you know, more automated reports, more autumn, you know, we get more emails coming in. You know, we moved over to, you know, can you get more of like a, uh, like a sock. Can you get somebody else to, to manage a lot of looking at those threats for you so that, you know, you see the threats that are there, but you're not having to dig through a whole lot of data. Another approach that we've done, and this is, seems unrelated but at the same time it's kind of like, how do you get some of that, um, I don't want to call it like, you know, fresh meat, but more of that like different skill sets in, um, we've taken a different approach to hiring and it's, you know, got. I get complaints about, you know, why can't we keep a technician for very long? And it's actually a planned saying. We actually don't keep technicians for very long. And it's because we hire technicians, we offer a robust training methodology. We try to get all of our people certified in network security, plus, uh, SQL plus. We get them every, every certification we can possibly get. Let them know, hey, let us know when you're applying. We'll even do mock interviews for you. Let's get you out there, get a letter of recommendation. Work your tush off while you're here and get out there, get your experience. And the only thing that we ask is when you leave, leave on good terms M and tell one of your friends. And what we've had is as we've lost amazing talent, we've got amazing talent that's coming in and everybody brings in a slightly different set of skills. So I mean, we know we're public education, we know that we're paying here and we know that when people leave, they're making here.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Fantastic. But they're not getting this job without, you know, without experience. So they come in with the education here, they leave with, you know, the experience and they're getting paid here. I'm okay with that, you know, uh, because if I, if I'm hiring people that want to work hard and get certifications, shoot, I'm ahead of the game. Yeah, it, that's. But I mean, it does kind of drain us every time. But we do bring in fresh, fresh ideas all the time.

Speaker B: I was going to ask about that because like earlier in the episode, you were talking about the clear importance you put on the growth of your team. Well, it's not like tech departments get a whole lot larger. So upward M mobility is a real challenge in the whole K12 ed tech space. Right. And so oftentimes the only way to move up is to move out. Right. And, and, and turnover is always a challenge. But if you're designing for turnover and then you're designing for the growth so that people can continue to grow, you really become a pretty remarkable place to. To be. One of the things that excites me so much about Bob's company, edutech, is that they're growing so fast. They've had people who came in as basically like help desk people and they've moved up in the company pretty substantially and it's really exciting to see. But School districts generally, unless you're living in one of those super rapidly growing districts, which there are a few in the country, but for the most part they're either stable or they're getting smaller and, and that creates uh, a different kind of, of tension. One other thing that you mentioned too is you talked about kind of using like secretaries and on building sites and using non tech staff to support with some of those tech needs and, and driving down to like that notion of tech level zero because like as new things are coming out where you always get that scope creepy. But the reality is certain things that were crazy hard and confusing to people in some cases have become everyday activities. Right. And so you know, being able to start to identify some of those everyday activities that used to require support and moving them from level one perhaps down to level zero as a way to kind of create space, just sort of drawing like am I, am I over stating some of the things that you've already said and how you tackle previous challenges?

Speaker C: No, because uh, what you're doing, I mean so what I do when I go talk to our superintendent or our leadership is I say okay, if you're not going to grow my team, this box right here, this is what we have the capacity to do. So if you want me to start doing things up here, I can't do this. What I can do is I can do this. And so in order to move up, something's gotta fall out the bottom. So what falls out the bottom and what's gotta fall out the bottom are level zeros. But we've done, and so we've done a lot of work on, you know, hey, let's make sure our self password reset is ironclad. Everybody should come in and do that. And that's you know, so nobody should be calling up and saying hey, I need to, you know, need to reset my password. That's a 10 minute phone call. I mean and in August when everybody comes back, If I get 500 teachers that have a 10 minute phone call, that's 5,000 minutes on the phone and I've got two phone lines out here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So that's 2,500 minutes where nobody. Let's, let's say that there's a broken computer. Let's say somebody's reporting that the network's down at a school site, right? Yeah, I don't know. So we've got to like, it's kind of like you're saying or uh, what I was saying was really automating what we can automate putting the things in the hands of the people that can do it, getting those tickets to level zero. Really, how do we get those things to kind of fall out the bottom into those we. Like I said, we call them level zero tickets. So we did an entire year where our technicians would tag tickets in our system as ID zero tickets. And then we did some data analysis on our ID0 tickets and said, okay, how much time would we actually save if we could get all of these tickets down to ID 0? And then, hey, what kind of cool things could we do if we got rid of all of the ID0 tickets? And then we tried to spend a summer on let's automate this stuff? And then, you know, how could we be more efficient? How could we do our jobs better? How could we be better for our students?

Speaker B: So nice, John.

Speaker A: Um, we have a crack team of researchers here, uh, led, led by our. Our. Our producer, uh, Sophia, who. Nobody gets to see her here. But, um, she has informed us that, you know, we. We start. We ask, you know, John has a. Has a doctorate, Dr. John Morgan. We asked, do you want to be referred to as Dr. John? Dr. Morgan? And it turns out Dr. John Morgan is Lord John Morgan. Lord Morgan. Lord Morgan. Right, right, like, right out of Monty Python or like, right from the royal family. John, how does this. Do tell. Do tell me we've embarrassed him. If you're only listening.

Speaker C: No, it is, um, well, there is a. It's from my heritage from the House of Boozal Group.

Speaker A: This may be my favorite moment in two years of podcasting.

Speaker C: Yes, uh, yes, it goes back, uh, in the great line of my heritage to two years ago. I bought a Groupon for my wife, and then she returned the favor a year later, where I received a groupon for the same. For the same Lordship. And actually this last year, um, because, um, my sons collect. I have two older sons, they collect samurai swords. I was able to purchase them

Speaker A: the

Speaker C: title of samurai as well. So it is. It's become a family tradition that we will all be a part of a house of something. So everybody has a certificate and, um, business cards.

Speaker B: It's probably the most, uh, American thing ever. Like, we purchased lordships and samurai status. It's like, with a grip on royalty.

Speaker C: Fusion royalty. Yeah, Fusion royalty followed by real estate on Mars.

Speaker A: Four, four or five generations down the road. I can see the. The royalty sitting around the table talking about how they earned their titles through conquest and. And through, uh, acts of valor. And John's descendants will be like, here's a Groupon bought low, naturally. Okay. Okay. All right, well, we only have so much time for royalty here. Uh, we're. We're so this. Contrary to popular belief that I think this is the best part of our. Our, uh, interview, because it's the end and we all know how much I like to talk is where I get to ask a question that Alex never gets to ask. I always win on this bet, John. Just like the magicians say. Have we met before? Is this. We gone through this before? Have you listened to any of our podcasts in the past?

Speaker C: I've listened to the. Listened to podcast, but no, we've never met before.

Speaker A: Okay, so the question is, John. Um, it's real question. I make light because I win so much, but I make light. John, can you tell us a bit about a, uh, favorite teacher or educator. Ah. Who had an impact on you, who that was and why?

Speaker C: Wow. So I would. Wow, that's a really tough question. Yes.

Speaker B: I win. Okay, so orange.

Speaker A: John, you've let me down. Yeah. We should give. Thanks, though. I'll give you this one, Alex, but go ahead.

Speaker B: Go ahead, John, tell us.

Speaker C: Well, I was gonna say which one makes you win? If it's an easy answer.

Speaker B: No, if you struggle with the answer, uh, uh, I win. And if the teacher is immediately m at the top of your mind, then Bob wins.

Speaker C: Interesting. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm looking forward to your thoughtful, reflective answer, John.

Speaker C: No, there was a. There was a teacher at Saddleback College.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: That.

Speaker C: He was a chemistry teacher, and he was the. He was the teacher that would make everybody cry. Um, because he was. But he was very. Just direct. He would ask you the question, and he just expected a lot. And, um, after taking his class, I decided to change my major to chemistry because I appreciated the way that he taught, the way that he required people to think, and the. The way that. Yeah, it was. It was amazing. And I became a chemistry major after that.

Speaker B: That's awesome. That's great.

Speaker A: He means it's awesome because he won. It's okay, John. You're still my favorite guest today.

Speaker C: I appreciate that.

Speaker A: Well, Dad's like the. I. I don't know how many we've recorded of these, but this is like, the second time Alex has won. It's okay, John.

Speaker B: Otherwise it might be the third. It might be the third. There's one. There's one in question, but I'm pretty sure that I won, so. Um, John, this was great. Thanks so much for joining us today. I got a lot out of this. I really enjoyed the perspective on growth that you shared. Um, and Your team is very, very lucky to have you. So thanks so much for joining us today.

Speaker C: Thank you. This has been wonderful to be here.

Speaker A: Hey Alex. So, um, this is what we used to say, uh, when we played on the playground, right? Losers walk. So I gotta talk because Jock wouldn't have a winner for us, uh, for me this time. Uh, I see you taking great joy in that. That's okay. It's okay.

Speaker B: I don't get it very often, so. Love it when you get it.

Speaker A: A sign for the win for you in the end. Uh, what struck you about that conversation?

Speaker B: Well, um, I just need to bask in my win for just a little bit longer because I don't get that very often. So. No, the uh, the producers dub in some.

Speaker A: Oh music.

Speaker B: So I, I loved his notion of a level zero tech ticket for two reasons. One, um, I think that there's always a lot that we can do in terms of automation and online training to take the load off of our team. But just the notion of having a level zero kind of sets the question of like, okay, as we're bringing new things on now, what do we move down to? Level zero, right? Like it becomes your mechanism to more easily off board things with the constantly growing, uh, scope creep that he mentioned, you know, that everyone deals with. I thought that was a very clever, um, very clever concept.

Speaker A: I'm going to steal the term Level zero or we. It is something that we have tried at edutech. I shouldn't say try. We've done. We've just not, um, explained it as well as he did. There's multiple wins there, right? The closer you push the solution of the problem to the problem, the quicker it gets resolved. And that wins for everybody. It gets the teacher back in front of the class sooner. It gets a student back into instruction sooner. It gets the bus back on the road sooner. Whatever it is, it happens sooner with less interaction from a larger group of technology people. We've just never termed it that way, but that's really what it is. Is this something that somebody else can learn or is this something could be automated? Is this something that can be simplified so that you and me both on that one?

Speaker B: Well, the communication guy says there's magic in language, right? And the language of level zero is, uh, is, is powerful. Well, another great episode. Thanks Bob and, and John, thanks uh, you know, uh, for joining us. This was a good, this was a good one. Thanks so much.