Ep.237: Leadership in a Micro Company and Challenging Conventional Wisdom on Business Growth, with Joel Miller | Leadership Podcasts

Speaker A: It has that foundational assumption about how things, ah, work. And it's like, well, that's not, uh, I don't know. I also immediately think of, of having kids and it's like, there's some things I'm going to tell my kids and already do not to do. Like, I don't, you shouldn't use crystal meth. It changes your, your brain density. Um, but the point is, right, like there's certain things we know that experience is a great teacher, but is not the only one. Uh, and so we have to be a lifelong learner. Read a lot and filter what you get back too. But there's a lot of lessons to be learned.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to Leading With Integrity. And if you're in the UK or Europe, I hope you survived last week's heat wave. I'm sure you did. Uh, but, uh, yeah, it was getting a bit unpleasant, wasn't it? And when I say that I'm recording this last week, so I'm in it right now, hence the rather glowing nature of my face. If you're a viewer, not a listener. Anyway, it's often struck me and others, and I'm sure we've talked about it before, how certain phrases, concepts, ideas, approaches, mindsets even become embedded in the culture of business, in entrepreneurs, in leaders, and just become an accepted truth and then are never really tested again. One of those would be the whole, uh, almost cliche at this point of fail fast, fail often. And there's plenty others. We'll be talking about some of those today. My guest is Joel Miller. He has some unconventional, some contrarian views about leadership and about how to best run a business. So, so we'll be digging into those a little bit, testing some of the assumptions and talking about how best to actually lead, whether leadership is relevant to a micro business or a solopreneur. Because Joel has been running his own marketing agency with his identical twin brother. So we'll obviously talk about identical twins as well, because I couldn't really resist that, especially when I found out their birthday as well. Joel and his brother Alan have been running this business for 17 years. They've never hired a single employee. And that's an intentional choice in Joel's words. It's not a gap in the resume, it's the whole point. So we'll talk about that. He'll talk a little bit about his experiences in the marketing world, where people go wrong, value based pricing and marketing as well. And why some of the conventional advice for growing or scaling a small business isn't quite right in his opinion anyway. And of course, this all leads into leadership and some of the concepts I've already mentioned. It's a fun conversation. We cover some new ground for the podcast as well as revisit some old concepts in perhaps a different perspective. So there's plenty to learn from today's discussion. And if you would like to learn more about Joel, do check those show notes below or listen to the end to hear about his website. Also, don't forget, if you are a new leader in a technical field and you're struggling with things like confidence, imposter syndrome, clarity, or just not really knowing where to start as a manager, then do visit leadingwithintegrity.co.uk you can join my Integrity Leaders community. It is there for people just like you. Because when you are promoted from doing the work to leading those who do the work, the expectations that are placed upon you change overnight. And yet the support from your higher management, usually from your company, from your employer, rarely shows up to help you cover that shift. Leading with Integrity is here, as is the Integrity Leaders Community to provide you with the resources, the knowledge, the support that emerging technical leaders, just like you need. The community provides a group of peers, proven leadership frameworks and knowledge, and grounded mentorship as well, to help you lead effectively from day one or from day whichever it is on your journey so far. So if you'd like to learn more, that website is in the show notes and it's on the screen right now if you're watching the video too. Right? That's enough from me. I feel like I'm, uh, starting to sweat through my shirt. Uh, you didn't need to know that, did you? Oh, well, um, yeah. Enough about me. Let's get Joel on the show.

Speaker A: Welcome to the Leading With Integrity podcast leadership talk for the modern manager with your host, David Hatch.

Speaker B: Joel, welcome aboard. So, Leading with Integrity, it's lovely to have you here today.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: Yeah, great. Thanks for being here. So I'm going to push you in at the deep end, I'm afraid.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Please introduce yourself, tell us a bit about your business, your career so far, what you do, why you do it, all of that sort of stuff.

Speaker A: Yes. So, uh, my name is Joel Miller and I'm a co owner of the Sky Floor. We're a digital marketing agency that really focuses around solving people's problems and helping them achieve their goals and outcomes. Now that sounds really like. What does that mean? Uh, and the truth is, I can't tell you because I don't know what your problem or goal or outcome is. And so we have those conversations and we work towards that solution in the digital space usually revolves around websites, usually ads, organic strategies, all those kinds of things. And it's my identical twin Leap day born brother and I who run it. And we've stayed intentionally small. It's just the two of us. After 17 years, we've been able to grow in 10 to 15% per year we've been in business. Uh, and we do that a lot of different ways, but we keep it just us because that's what we want out of this.

Speaker B: Okay, cool. I have to say that, uh, made me chuckle the. I don't know the answer. Very good. Very good.

Speaker A: Yes. Isn't that. I mean, I know you're supposed to, like, niche down right at ah, every turn. That's like everyone says, like they want us to be. You should be the digital marketing firm or the website company for lawyers, and you make the landing page for them and you sell only to them. Just hasn't panned out in our business that way. And I love that. Actually, if I only worked with lawyers, I'd probably just fall asleep on every call. I want to learn about new problems and help solve them, and that's the part I love about it.

Speaker B: Yeah, lawyers are boring. Gotcha. Yeah.

Speaker A: Boring but useful sometimes.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, okay. Um, no, I know what you mean. And that's something I really struggle with in leadership work as well. Because in my brain I'm convinced and always have been that leadership is a universal skill. It's useful for anyone in any context. We're probably going to get to that a bit later anyway, in this conversation. But from a marketing perspective, being told I need to niche down or whatever.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I really struggle with that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Bad at it and I don't want to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, uh, you know, we've actually tried that because so we end up working with a lot of nonprofits. We've worked with a lot of, like, there's been some categories that pop up more. And so I've made landing pages that are only for those businesses. And it just doesn't. It actually, like, does the opposite of what people are saying. It makes me feel more fractured and like I'm chasing this thing down and the leads aren't coming. Meanwhile, the people are still reaching out in every other industry. Like a random grab bag that they're just tossing on our laps. And you go, why am I spending time trying to focus somewhere? And the people I'm focusing on, they could care as much as anyone else, but they, they aren't caring. And so this is a waste of time. Like I should be focusing on the people who are coming to us and understand our value proposition.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Fractured is a great word there. I, I definitely get that. It's more things to remember, isn't it? Like.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is, it is. And there's already enough to remember in our lives, I think.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Uh, absolutely. Yeah. And so the identical twin thing as well, that's, that is interesting. And born on a leap year. Yes, leap day, even. So does that mean you're only like 10 years old or something?

Speaker A: Is that, uh, yeah, we would be. That's right. Ten and a half as of February.

Speaker B: So that was a good guess.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's good. 42 to, to do the math, every four years we get a birthday. Yeah, it is cool.

Speaker B: It's.

Speaker A: We really enjoy it.

Speaker B: So do you really only celebrate every four years or do you just do it on the 28th and the off years?

Speaker A: The age old question. I mean, we do celebrate, uh, in the off years. People are always like, March 1st though, right? Or is it February? And I'm like, it's a February birthday. It is not the day after the last day of February. It just doesn't actually exist. You can't, you can't make it, uh, make it real because it's the summation of our extra time on the planet.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there is that. The other way to look at it is if you don't do March 1st, you're giving up a day every year. So it could be going extra days of. Well, that's true, you know, like 41 or whatever before you turn 42. So there's an appeal there, isn't there?

Speaker A: Well, that's true. That's. The other option is like we could do a birthday on the 28th and on the 1st, like just have both days. Or maybe it's fractions of a second at the end of every day.

Speaker B: Oh, you're just getting greedy now.

Speaker A: No, you're right, you're right. Because if we take that, then we have to forfeit the actual day when it accumulates, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, that would be reasonable, wouldn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, we want to be reasonable about this.

Speaker B: Definitely, Definitely. So a business of two. Yes, I'm a business of one, so I totally get the appeal of this. But it feels like for a lot of people when we talk about business growth and all that sort of thing, that one of the main ways to grow is headcount Isn't it?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And that's how a lot of people measure the success of a business. But you're obviously refusing to do that. I'm with you. No spoilers, but I'm with you on that. But, uh, I mean, why do you now see that as more of a competitive advantage rather than a limiting factor?

Speaker A: Right. I mean, it can be limiting if you're not the kind of client who wants a small team. But I would argue that up until, well, we've even worked with a Fortune 500 company before. So it's not necessarily, uh, limiting in any. But I think it's a benefit for our clients. I think it's. You talk with me, the business owner, during the sales process. I make the proposal. I talk to you throughout the project. I own every piece of that. I do the work too. So I'm responsible for. On the call with you to the work I said I would do and how it's going. I just hate seeing our friends who run agencies and they have all these employees. They have the project manager, the salesperson. Uh, they're usually only involved at the very beginning and when something's going wrong. And the rest of it is this really messy game of telephone like the kids play around a table. It always becomes a potty word by the end, uh, that reveals that I have an 8 and 11 year old. And, um, and so, and then the owner gets on there and there's a problem and they have to throw their team under the bus basically to make it work. And I want to own our work, our mistakes. I want to be in partnerships with people. And I just don't see how that works very well when I've got ten, uh, people underneath me.

Speaker B: Yeah. I have to agree, not just because I'm biased, but, um, so it's come up for me a couple of times over the years as well, people, once they find out, uh, you're, uh, a business of one, I guess a micro business is the term, isn't m it? Yeah, right. And that immediate objection comes up of, well, you know, what, what if you, what if you get ill or you get hit by a bus? And then who are we supposed to get to do the job for us? Okay, well, firstly, thanks for caring about my personal well being.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: But secondly. Yeah, okay, you're right. I mean, I hope that's not likely to happen. But also. Exactly as you've just said, you're getting that personal touch. You have one person that you need to call if something goes wrong. There's no Dodging it. I can't blame someone else. Um, unless the Internet collapses or something, then I can guess I blame the Internet. So for me that feels like a more meaningful relationship for confidence in getting the work done right. And most clients see it that way too. I've only had a couple who've been like, nah.

Speaker A: Right, yeah. And I think it is like self sorting. Like, I actually enjoy that if we talk with someone and they're like wanting that, like for whatever reason they didn't read our website or something. I guess they're, they're like, yeah, exactly. They're like, uh, oh, wait, so who. It's only you and your brother. That same question, what happens? And I'm like one, I don't think you're as stable as you think you are with those big agencies because every. I've seen plenty of turnover because all the employees are disgruntled. So they start quitting and if Sally quits, I'll quit. They all do on the team and all of a sudden you're without all your team and then again the owner's in and they're going, don't worry about it. You know, we're, we've been in business this long, we'll hire more people. And they do. But guess what? Those people don't know anything about your company. And they're not getting it from the person you rage quit. So, um, you're going to be onboarded again. I don't know that it's that different actually. It's just, it's a false sense of security a lot of times.

Speaker B: I think so. I think so. Especially when you're working with small business anyway. Like they're inherently unstable. Um, and I think, yeah, I don't know. I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter because of those jobs I lost because of this. But I do think even without the staff turnover aspect, the way a lot of these big sort of, whether it's a marketing agency or a project consultancy or whatever it might be, the way they tend to operate is pretty rare. Like, they'll tell you you have a single point of contact, but you won't. I've been on the other side of that. I know. Like, and on every call you waste the first half of the call explaining all the stuff that you did last time and getting them on board with a job and oh, it's just, it's such a waste of time and uh, therefore money. So, yeah, yeah. Anyway.

Speaker A: And I don't know, have you ever white labeled for anyone? Because that's also funny because it's like we've had that happen over the years kind of, you know, maybe it makes more sense in our world, but. And you know, for a season, like, which I think is just the most outrageous circus show ever of like. All right, we're going to give you our email. We know you don't work for us, but, you know, we want you to operate as someone on the team, to the client. And I'm always like, well, one, they can just Google me, like, I'm everywhere. Like, they're not going to find out that I work for you. I'm not on your website, so why are we even doing this charade? That's weird. But two, I've seen that enough to know, like, a lot of times when these clients who object to and go to a bigger agency, they object to the small one. They're getting that they're getting a bunch of 1099 contractors anyway, who have the ability to leave anytime they want. Typically, like, there's nothing holding them there. And so again, it isn't as stable as it might appear.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, in theory there are laws in the uk, one specific law about contracts or relationships. Um, and because it was being used as a tax dodge, people were saying they were a contractor when they were really working full time and therefore they could manage their tax differently. But yeah, I think quite a lot of it still goes on, to be honest.

Speaker A: Yeah, because it's. I don't know if it's the same there, but in the States we have that same kind of thing. I don't. But like all, uh, it just has to be that there's no guarantee of ongoing work. Right. Like that. Like there's. It's kind of a loosey goosey definition, but it's like it's a project. You're getting hired for the project, not to just invoice constantly or be on a salary. And so that's what makes it even less stable. It's like, yes, by law the contractor has the ability to leave whenever they want. Uh, or they're an employee.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. The other test to hear here as well is, um, ease of replaceability, I guess is the word. I don't know what the actual legal phrase is. But so again, it's that exact same problem. Like the contractor, in order to be legal, they have to be able to be replaced easily and immediately.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, exactly. So, uh, if you're looking for an agency out there and you're listening to this, uh, you might be getting that and you don't know it, but you can always contact guys like David and I. And you know what you're getting.

Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. For good or bad. Awesome. So, I mean, that whole, uh, the size of the business thing, that's fair to say. That's one of your more contrarian leadership lessons. Can you share some of your other ones? So one in particular that jumped out at me when I read your profile was this firm now flexible later methodology, or mindset I guess you'd call it.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. I mean, when I say that from now, uh, flexible later, I think it's like the best partnerships we have in our business have lasted five or 10 years, but they start with being very early on usually, but holding the line on something. So I think there's uh, very much a time to draw some boundaries and say, no, this is the scope of the project. No, I can't do that for, uh, without getting m more money for that or changing something else in the scope or just like even something practical, personally, like the late night text and it's not a real emergency and you're like, I'm not. I'll do it tomorrow morning. But if you, when you do some of those things, you set some of those firm boundaries, all of a sudden it opens the gate to kind of be generous with your time to be flexible later on. And that builds like an insane layer of trust because they know you're not. You don't get walked all over, and yet you're offering this to them. So I think there's really something to be said about like forging a relationship and partnership to have some of those boundaries, and then because you made them, you can break them intelligently to offer some value.

Speaker B: Yeah, I really like that. And I guess I'm kind of the same, but I've never really thought about it. But like, the longer I've worked with someone, the more flexibility they will get. Like, the more extra bits I might do without charging, for example, the more forgiving I'll be of the last minute request or whatever it might be. Yeah, right.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it kind of works that way in all of our relationships. Like you, we earn and I recommend, don't keep track of this if you have a partner or spouse or don't, uh, keep your list of things. But there is relational capital. Right. And trust is earned and built and respect is earned and built. And so I think it's just the same way in a lot of ways. We just need to apply healthy, uh, relational standards to our work relationships too.

Speaker B: Definitely, definitely. Um, And I quite often complain about work culture and how we need to bin this whole money for time dynamic and make it more about money for value. I think this is actually the flip side of that argument. The benefit of doing that is people would do a bit more as well. Like, it's not just. You're going to get less.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And it's so hard to, like, pitch that in a sales call or a client. Like, I promise you. And I almost don't want to too. I promise you. Uh, it gets so much more flexible the longer we know each other. And if you're paying like this value price that I'm pitching, that's what you're getting over time. It's like, what does that mean? Well, never mind. I'm not spelling it out for you. There has to be some layer of trust even at the beginning. Yeah.

Speaker B: You just have to wait and see.

Speaker A: Yeah. That there's benefits to this kind of relationship. But I'm with you, you know, I'm totally with you. I'm sure, like, hourly billing is crazy. It doesn't define anything about the actual value of what someone's getting. And time is not money. I'm sorry to say out there now, your time is valuable, but that's not the same thing.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And. And yeah, so we gotta. People have to. That's the number one thing. Like a solo operator or even. Honestly, these agencies, they run basically, uh, uh, it's kind of just like a weird employment agency or something at sometimes because they're just hiring people under them, hoping they book enough hours at the right margin to the client. It's like you're not really a marketing agency. You're just, uh, an employment agency under a different banner. Uh, so a lot of it's hourly billing and time and cost. And it's like, no, get out of that mindset. Because everyone's actually suffering. You have your value defined to the client and they don't know how they're profiting probably either.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's why things like timesheets and tracking hours and just billable hours and all that is because it's easy. You don't have to think too much about that. But I think in terms of like. So if you think of like a consumer good or something like a physical product, if they applied that logic to those, they'd make like, pennies, wouldn't m they? Because.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: Because the markup they get on that according to time spent to produce it and cost materials is ridiculous, isn't it? It's hundreds of percent, probably.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's, like, it's, uh, one of my favorite things to attack when people are questioning, why don't you do hourly? Or can I see your hourly rate? And I'm like, you cannot. And this is the reason we already know. You innately know that time has nothing to do with the value of something. And the value. There's a lot of factors in value, but one of my favorite ones is, uh, I can get you a Timex watch that tells time, and I can get you a Rolex that tells time. They both do it. You don't walk into the. Buy the Rolex and say, I'm just here. I want to make sure that it took you. What's your hourly rate? Even if it's a thousand dollars an hour. Like, you're not going to be like, I just want to make sure it took 50 hours to make the $50,000 watch. Uh, because, uh, it's gotta be a lot more time than the Timex or it doesn't make sense to me. No, that's not what you're buying. And so, same thing with cars. You buy the Lexus, you're not like, I want to make sure it took more time to make the Lexus than the Toyota. You know, framed counterpart chassis. No, it's not how we think about it. You buy these things for other reasons. And so as a business owner, you have to. We need to pull those levers, figure out how to communicate our value beyond the time it took to produce what we're going to. What we're going to do.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the car one is interesting as well, because obviously they're built by robots, so it's not costing anyone's time right after.

Speaker A: Right, Yeah. I want to make sure that we divide out the R and D to build the robots.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: No, like, I guess the cost of

Speaker B: those machines is pretty high as well. But, yeah, let's make that back on, like, three cars, though.

Speaker A: I would, uh. Yeah, I would imagine, certainly. Uh, I watched, uh, how it's made on Rolls Royce the other day with the kids.

Speaker B: Okay. Well, they're different, though, aren't they? Because they have a lot of, like,

Speaker A: handcrafted stuff that it is insane if you can find. I mean, look at it for the video. You're just like, I don't want one of these, I don't think. But, uh, but wow, they really go for it.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I think that's the only reason they've lasted as long as they have Given how expensive all their cars are. It's because of that sort of. That again, it's the personal touch, isn't it?

Speaker A: It is. Right, right.

Speaker B: That thing where they, like, sign whoever assembled it. They sign under the.

Speaker A: I think so. And they like, you know, so the one guy does the. The paint stripes, and he'll fly around the world to touch up people's cars. You can get a color from them that they will. They. Will they patent it if it's a specific color. That can be. So no one else can use your car color on a vehicle. I'm sure it's categorical, but. But like, stuff like that, you know, you're like, again, you're not paying $400,000 for that car just because, I mean, it is handcrafted. And that's part of the story. That's part of the value. But it's not the only reason. It's $400,000. There's their status. There's, uh, the uniqueness of it, the how it represents you as the buyer. Those are things that you. You can't actually very much put a price tag on. But it has so. So divorced from this idea of time cost.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It is ironic, isn't it, when it serves the purpose of probably the same group of people. Uh, right.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker B: The double standard there, isn't there?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, a little bit. But at the end of the day, it's a car. Right. It still drives you from point A to point B. A Yaris does the same thing. So why is the Rolls Royce that much more money? I mean, there's a lot of reasons, but really it has so little to do with this construct that a lot of people obsess about.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. That's a good direction to come at it from, actually, because as much as I complain about value and that uh, whole sort of thing in the workplace, actually, I've not really thought about it from that other perspective either. Uh, so it does go both ways. Um, right. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. All right. So a micro business, business of two. I mean, that's particularly as your brothers. That's kind of like being a solopreneur anyway, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah. Especially with identical twins, literally.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so the question I ask, so other solopreneurs, and don't let knowing my probable answer to this bias your response at all, but do you think leadership is a useful skill for the solopreneur because they're not leading anyone in their business?

Speaker A: Certainly. Yeah. I Mean, that's a good question. Yeah, no, because you, uh, you're right, we don't have any direct reports that I need to lead. And yet I think if I'm doing a good job at my work and I really, I think this involves anyone in what they do. I'm, I often, I joke sometimes I get off of calls and I'm like, well, that was another episode of Joel Miller, Business Coach. But that's exactly the point, right? Like, I have a lot of experience in a lot of domains and even businesses that have been in business longer than we have need some of that expertise. Well, that means I have to bring those people along with me. I have to tell a story, I have to get buy in. And there's innate leadership in all of that. And then there's also just like how I interface with people. I mean, I think leadership as a concept has so much to do with relationship that, that if you're not honing those skills so that you can lead other people, well, uh, you're gonna, your business is gonna suffer. So it isn't just I get up at the standing meeting and tell you what to do. That's not leadership. It's, it's a lot bigger than that.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I, uh, mean, I already gave a spoiler at the beginning, didn't I, about my view on this answer. But I think there's. So when people ask me this question, and it's the same reason why, I hope, at least I'm still relatively confident that AI ah is not going to replace leadership either.

Speaker A: Right, right. No, I think you're right.

Speaker B: My answer to the question is, well, it depends. As a solopreneur, do you have to deal with any people?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I don't think anyone can honestly answer no to that question unless they're doing really badly in business. Like if you haven't got any customers. Um, yeah, yeah, you know, fair enough. Been there. Yeah, I can empathize. But

Speaker A: no, that's a great response. Yes.

Speaker B: But yeah, being honest, people are going to answer yes. So if you have to interact with people, then, yeah, leadership skills are going to be useful. Right. Because leadership is all about people.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Pivoting on from that question. It's not really pivoting, is it? Following on from that question, you do have, as you said, you've got customers, you've got suppliers, there are other people in your sphere of influence, if you like, in business. So what are your top tips for leadership for other micro business owners?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, treat every Relationship like it's going to outlast the current deal because often it will. The deal is temporary.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like there's relationships. I've been married for 17 years, going on almost 18. We've been in business about that long too. So kind uh, of coincides. Well, guess what? The, the crazy uh, 80 hour work week and issues that kept me up at night from 15 years ago. I can't remember actually. I don't even know. And certainly the client doesn't probably. But I still have my marriage. Well, I think the same thing is true with the relationships in our client base too. You're going to probably know the people, hopefully beyond whatever the current issue is. So I think again it's a people first thing kind of echoing what you're saying. Um, and then I would say make it easy to say no to you. So uh, I think like you. And there's kind of a catch 22 here, obviously like be intelligent but like I think you need to be able to give your clients sometimes an E, a graceful way to exit. Uh, and that also builds that trust again and maybe a long term partnership because they're not staying because they uh, are being manipulated into it. Right. Like it's a, it's also a good relational philosophy. Um, um, and then I, I have a third one which is lead with what's right for them, not just what's profitable for you. So it's kind of all based around people. Right. Like we, I mean I, I've had times where I've recommended competitors and every single time that's come back to us with a referral or a returning client and uh, more often than not bigger deals. So like it's I just zero sum game thinking. I just don't, I can't get behind.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm with you there as well. Definitely. I think, I mean make it easy to say no. I love that. I mean we can take that from a different angle for larger organizations too. Like make it easy for your people to say no to you when you're a leader. Because if you're not doing that, if you're creating that environment where they're afraid to. What's the phrase? Push back. I'm not found that phrase. But yeah, to like raise questions even or problems. Then. Yeah, things go wrong pretty fast, don't they?

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's true, it's true. You're not going to do your best work. No, if there's that environment. I often talk about like this idea because I've seen so many toxic agency Relationships like we'll come in and basically save a client and we have to work with the old agency for a minute or we hear the stories and it's like, yeah, you want to have this environment where there's actual honesty. People aren't like tallying all the wrong things everyone did and coming up with gotchas. Like again, in our relationships, personally, we all hate when that happens. Why do we do it with our work relationships? And uh, those are some of the times if that persists and you can't get out of it, like that might be someone, a client to walk away from because it's probably going to crash and burn anyway at some point.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean it echoes your first one as well, doesn't it? I mean that kind of the longevity of the relationship.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And um, Yeah, I don't know. I mean it's just a nicer way to behave. But I do think as well it's more profitable in the long run anyway.

Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, yeah. And I think like, I totally agree. You have to do like be genuine and authentic with it. Like if it's a strategy for profit, it probably won't actually work because. Because there's gonna. Something will feel a little bit fake about it. But you're right, there's this added benefit that.

Speaker B: That's it. Yeah, yeah. It's the side effect, isn't it? It's not the why. Yeah, yes, absolutely. Which I think is true for a lot of like good leadership behaviors as well.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Particularly from business owner point of view. You do these things because they're the right thing, but they also happen to usually result in better bottom line too. Well, we're flying through these questions, which is good, I guess, given that we're also doing tangents in between.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: One of my hobbies lately, which has come up a lot in episodes, is finding well known cliches, finding the real truth in them in a situation or practical way. However, we're going to go a different direction with this question because there's one of these that, uh, again, I saw it in something you'd written and it triggered me in uh, a memory kind of way of. Oh man, I remember when that guy said that at work and we all cringed and it was awful. And that one is fail early and fail often.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Now I know where it comes from. I understand the logic and there's a whole agile mindset behind it. Uh, and yeah, but I feel like also, uh, it's been co opted by the entrepreneur bro. Culture. Rubbish.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: I Mean your controversial take on it, which I have to say I don't think is very controversial.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Is that it's terrible advice.

Speaker A: It's terrible advice.

Speaker B: So from your perspective, why. And why is it actually harmful as well? And what should we be saying or thinking instead?

Speaker A: Right. I mean, fail early, fail often at the very core. Uh, isn't setting you up for success probably, I mean, is that, that's just kind of common sense. But honestly, it's like if your child comes to you and they're like, I have, uh, I got the math problem wrong again, dad. You're like, you're not like, uh, well, you just haven't failed enough times yet in order to learn how to do it right? No, you actually say, okay, let's talk about what you did. Here's how you approach it. Let's work. Right. So I think the difference is coming up with this idea that it's a badge of honor to fail is just kind of, it's a negative thing overall that I have to like fail enough time to learn the thing. We completely skip by that you can learn so much without failure that you can, you know, it doesn't have to be the only mechanism for learning. And I also think like that we, uh, um, it's, it kind of makes it feel like it's the goal of trying versus the byproduct. Again, there's a byproduct of taking smart risks. So there's like a difference between I'm willing to have setbacks while pursuing something ambitious versus like, um, I'm just going to run experiments until it fails. Because that's growth.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it kind of merges and ruins a whole bunch of different concepts that on their own make a lot of sense. Like, so the scientific method, for example, like you experiment, you test your theories, you know, you find the failures, and then that leads you eventually to the right answers. I'm not sure in business though it necessarily applies. And then the other thing, like it grew out of the software space and that whole agile methodology, didn't it? Where in that very specific context it does make sense, right? To a point. Um, yeah, but yeah, I just, I don't know. I do see value in learning from mistakes. Of course, I don't think anyone seeks out mistakes necessarily or should. Maybe some people do, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think the other problematic thing with it as well, and the math problem there is a great example there. If your logic is internally that you won't succeed until you Failed all of the times and failed all of the other versions to get to the right answer. If there are infinite possible wrong answers and only one correct answer, you will never succeed, literally, by the nature of infinity. So,

Speaker A: no, I do think that's, uh. I do. I think you're right. And that's smart. I mean, what I'd like to say instead in my blog post about this, this is kind of where I landed. But, um, it's certainly not as pithy and short, but it gets more at the heart of what I think people are trying to say, which is like, seize your opportunities, learn from setbacks, and know when to move on. So it's. I just, it's just a little too, like. And it's not that much longer, honestly, but it's. You can't just say fail early, fail often. Uh, uh, but yeah, to your point, I mean, I think, like, it. There are lessons to be learned from our failures, and we absolutely should learn those and not let that experience go to waste. But walking into a startup situation, which I hear these stories, and it's like, it's more like they're like, well, we gotta fail rapidly so we can learn lessons. And you're like, uh,

Speaker B: yeah, I don't know. I mean, there is a sort of logic to it of if you have to fail, do it quickly so, you know, and then you can move.

Speaker A: Well, that is true.

Speaker B: Like, I get that part of it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I do also think it's become maybe misinterpreted or, uh, poorly defined. Uh, it's like any of these things, isn't it? It is to an extent, what you make of it and how you apply it. And I think there's too many businesses, and I've worked in one that did exactly this, where failure becomes the goal and the actual goal gets forgotten. Yes, right. Which is not helpful in any situation. Right? Yeah. Right.

Speaker A: And I'm all about experiments. I think experimenting is great. Right?

Speaker B: Like, absolutely.

Speaker A: And, and we should expect that our. Not all of our assumptions can be true. And so hopefully, if you're running an experiment of any kind in your business, you have a hypothesis and, and you're testing it, and a lot of times it will be wrong. So, like, yes, that will be a failure. Again, it's just, I think about mindset and attitude, and I think, I fear that, uh, people like you, and I understand what people mean when they say fail early, fail often, but that there's a whole host maybe of younger entrepreneurs who just might find it distracting because they're not Actually sure what it means.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, quite a lot of older ones who don't understand either. Um, I think. I mean, it sounds like semantics, what I'm about to say, but I think that the difference is important, and it's. Seeking out failure is not the same as not fearing failure. Like, the first of those is unhealthy and unhelpful. The second is actually quite a positive thing.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker B: And it's. And it's exactly as you said. Like, it speaks to culture and the way you operate, I think, as an organization.

Speaker A: Yeah. It has that foundational assumption about how things work. And it's like, well, that's not, uh. I don't know. I also immediately think of. Of having kids, and it's like, there's some things I'm going to tell my kids and already do not to do. Like, I don't. You shouldn't use crystal meth.

Speaker B: Yeah. Quite a major one to jump to is something you want to figure first in your list. But. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. When I tuck them in every night, I pull up the blankets. Just remember, don't use crystal meth. It changes your. Your brain density. Um, but does it really?

Speaker B: Didn't know that.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, but the point is, right, like, there's certain things we know that experience is a great teacher, but it's not the only one. Uh, and so we have to be a lifelong learner, read a lot and filter what you get back, too. But there's a lot of lessons to be learned where, uh, no failure is necessary as some kind of goal instead of a byproduct of an attempt.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think even when you haven't directly failed most times, I think especially these days, with the ease of access to information, you may succeed without failure, but actually you haven't because you've done that by learning from the failures other people have had before you and knowing enough to not repeat them. Um, which again, feels like an undersold truism.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Back to leadership then. I have some slightly more generic leadership questions for you now, which I think are always fun to see what the guest makes of them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, so the first of those is, what is the most important leadership lesson you've learned in your career so far?

Speaker A: Uh, I think the leader who needs to be the smartest person in the room is the biggest threat to their own business and their employees, probably. And maybe anyone they come in contact with, I don't know. And we've all met these people, but a complete Lack of curiosity. Uh, I think that it's a superpower, uh, really to say I don't know and then ask a question, uh, or to say, I want to think about that before I respond. Right. There's a confidence there. That's not weakness. But I think sometimes it's kind of promoted that the leader is the person who gives the most authoritative or, uh, authoritarian commands to people.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Which is categorically not leadership.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly.

Speaker B: I mean, I guess it's a form of leadership if you're thinking like a hundred years ago and when autocratic leadership theory was the norm and that sort of thing. But.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, it's interesting, like particularly those trying to skirt around politics now, but those leaders who feel like they should be the smartest person in the room, but they definitely are not. They're the ones who are the real danger to everyone.

Speaker A: No, totally. It's. Yeah.

Speaker B: There's a lot of things, uh, to unpack in that kind of myth of leadership. It's probably. Well, it's routinely in my top three myths of leadership when I talk about those and that, that kind of expectation that leaders put on themselves. I think a lot of it is like the social pressure of it, the self imposed pressure as well. Like the. You kind of, you're projecting a little bit and you're looking out at those faces around, sort of looking up, waiting for you to give the answer. And m. You kind of in your own brain and it's so easily done. It's very human. And it's kind of a product as well of probably the leaders you have worked for yourself in the past too. Um, but it's. Oh man, it's so difficult to break out of it once you get stuck in that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's, it's harmful to yourself as well. Like not just the people you're leading because it's, it's unattainable. You're never going to do it. So you're just, you're opening the door to feel terrible about yourself all of the time.

Speaker A: Right. I mean, it's not about just being in charge. Right. Uh, it's like, it's about the conditions you create, I think with your team or the people around you or your clients that, that uh, can lead to people coming along in a productive way. In a willing way too.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I would just ask people who. Leaders who think that way. How does it actually make you feel day to day? Because I think I know the answer and it's not great, is it? And then you've got to also think about if that's the example you're setting to the future leaders in the room. You're also going to create people. You're putting others in that same situation in five or 10 years time. They're also going to feel pretty horrible about themselves. Is that what you want for them as well?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. There's a whole.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, just a little bit of self reflection. I think most people would be like actually. Yeah. Uh, this is stupid. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yes. The personality who wants to just be in like being in charge is their kind of modus operandi. Those are the people who have a little trouble sometimes with self reflection.

Speaker B: Yeah. This is a fair point. This is a fair point. Which is probably one of the big, um, answers to why are there so many bad managers in the world?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think, I mean. So the other final thing I would point I'll make on that one is, and I've said it many times before, everyone in the audience, if they've listened to more than one episode, have heard me say this. Almost certainly. But the other problem with being a leader who thinks your job is to have the answer because it's impossible to always have the answer. Uh, that uh, then practically speaking becomes I need to come up with an answer which often ends up being the wrong answer.

Speaker A: Right, right. No, exactly.

Speaker B: And I've been there and done that. Ah. And um, made that mistake many times. So it's a hard earned lesson, that one.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Lovely. Okay. Now this is probably my second favorite question.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because I've had some genuinely inspirational answers to this one. But no pressure.

Speaker A: Yeah. Seriously. Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So what is your best memory of being led. Ooh.

Speaker A: Okay. So I had to, I was thinking about this. What's my best. I, I feel like there's probably business like a more businessy answer than what I'm going to give you. But it's the one that just kept popping up so I had to articulate it. And uh, that was when we were young, uh, like high school aged. I made a mistake, a very public one that offended a friend in front of, let's just say, uh, the whole school.

Speaker B: Ouch.

Speaker A: Yeah. So as you might imagine, that did not go over well with this friend nor our entire friend group, uh, and led to a basic, an ostracizing that going, happening. Just like people being livid and a lot of frustration and anger and all these things. And one of our friends, uh, came up and was basically like one. Is this how you want this to end? Because that was our Senior year, this. End of senior year two. Is this also who you claim to be? Is this who you want to be and not what you did, but how it's going now? And so she asked those questions, which was like, oh, man, that's some cold water. No to. To both of those things. Um, and then she facilitated a reconciliation. So, um, just, like, the courage that she had to come out of the social norm that was happening in our world and go against what everyone else was, just like, that's it. It should be over. This is the worst thing that's happened. Very teenage drama at this point. But nonetheless, the lesson's the same. She went against the popular thing and thinking, put herself out on a limb, then challenged me to something higher and then gave a step for it to. To actually happen.

Speaker B: I mean, that is so impressive because of the age at the time as well. Like, uh, having that confidence and the wherewithal and. Yeah, just, I guess, the grit a little bit as well, to actually do something like that in that situation.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, Teenage years are not my strongest for leadership, if I'm honest, so all the more impressive. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, she really, like, saw through, I think, the whole thing, in a sense, and was just like, no, I'm not. I'm not gonna sit here while my community basically falls apart at this, like, critical time in our lives. Because no one, uh, will step forward and say, enough.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, impressive grasp of, like, values and priorities as well. Like, recognizing this isn't important. This is.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: This is what really matters. Yeah. That's very cool story. Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker A: And I think there's probably a million more. It's funny. How do you ever do this? Like, you get asked a question and then you kind of just, like. I wouldn't call it, like, going blank. It's kind of the opposite of that, but you're just sort of, like, letting the thoughts, the memories float by you. And if you, like, one keeps turning up, I'm like, well, I guess that's it. I gotta explore that because. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: I do have that quite a lot. Like, multiple answers and struggling to choose the right one. Yeah, right. It's because I haven't done any exams for so long, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker B: That's right. Since we're talking about school, um, something that always strikes me with that question. It's pretty rare that the answer is recent in the person's life, and I don't know what to glean from that. Yeah. And even my own answer to it as well is probably pretty early in my career.

Speaker A: Right. Is it because it takes us so long to have the event solidify itself into our core psyche? Or is it that when we're younger, some of those experiences have the chance

Speaker B: to be more formative maybe, or our memories get worse as we get older?

Speaker A: I do, I feel that, um.

Speaker B: Um. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, what I fear, which I don't want to be, my conclusion is that leaders and managers are getting worse. And I don't want that to be true. But I think what it probably is, where I'm sitting at the moment, the fence I've chosen to plant myself next to or on, is that it's early career, early life, because we have less to compare it to. And so it sits as that example. And then everything that comes afterwards is what we compare to that first one or that early one. And uh, maybe it's that kind of rose tinted hindsight sort of scenario as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker B: That's my thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think you're right. Like that story I just told, like, I can identify that as a critical moment in like how I think about relationships and, and, and what should happen when. And like humbling myself enough because of how that moment hit me, like I've carried that forward. Right now I'm like, I want to be the first one to apologize and genuinely, like, not because it's a tool or a weapon to get the upper hand, but because, look, I realized that I made a mistake and I have something to say about that. And some of that stems from those experiences. And so like, maybe some it is like we don't have anything to compare it to, but by that very nature, like it has one of the biggest impacts on us.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. That is true. Um, and I mean, you've hinted at something else there that I find it gives me cause for optimism in like the world these days and the shifts in culture at the society level, but things like that, just the simple wanting to be first to apologize and not seeing as a weakness. And these, there's other concepts around this as well, so leadership, like vulnerability, for example, the way that, that sort of narrative that uh, most of us, well at least in our generation grew up with of, you know, weakness means never saying, you know, always apologizing. And strength is never say you're sorry and all that sort of horrible nonsense. Though these days we recognize for what it is, which is actually pretty toxic and not a very nice Way to live.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Time travel question.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: If you could go back in time and start your business over again, what would you change?

Speaker A: I think I would, uh, have focused on value pricing much sooner. I would have, by that same token, charged more sooner and been less afraid to lose deals because of it. Like, less fear around the pricing conversation, less nervousness to say when you send that email to be like, uh. Because once you do this for long enough, you realize, oh, there's nothing absolutely to be afraid of here. It's like, really, uh, I'm putting it in the other person's court and I'm valuable. I'm worth something.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think if I had to have an exception to our rule earlier about failing fast, getting to know quickly, I think probably sales scenarios are the one.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, like I don't want to be going back and forth for ages if they've already decided at the beginning.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, exactly. Yes. And it's. Yeah, it's not like, uh. Well, and I want to tie it in to, to like a people first approach too. Like, the sooner, if that's important to you, the sooner you, uh, like recognize your value and are able to pitch that. And probably by the very nature of that, earn more. Like that allows you to be more generous with your resources, with your money, with your time, probably. And so I don't know. I see just like there's a cascade, a domino of effects that if I could go back in time and be like, uh, here's. I'm going to implant the experience you're going to have in 17 years and the confidence in how you charge now, like there, there would be some ripple effects that would be good for me, but good for the people around me in the world too.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I see that, I see that. Uh, I think that whole knowing your value piece is like a constant theme through any kind of, well, career, professional, business setting, isn't it? I think as a solopreneur, I mean, that was something I still struggle with from time to time, but I definitely did in the early years. And I think naturally, because that impetus to just take any paying job you can get right now, the pressure's real and it's. Yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker A: Yeah. I still occasionally have that experience when I'm putting together an invoice, even for a job that's been agreed to, where I'm like, that's a big number. Like, when I get it, are they going to be like, was this really worth it? And Then I have to remind myself, like, no, of course they will.

Speaker B: They will.

Speaker A: They're all about it. They've already agreed. They've already bought in.

Speaker B: Do you have the other thing where you go to the opposite extreme? Like, there's a. There's a rude way of saying it in a polite way. I'll use the polite way where you have go away pricing.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: But you don't want the work, so it's tricky.

Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Because, uh, that's like one of my. I love the idea of, like, saying no when you, uh. Or saying yes, rather. This is the way I phrase it. Learning to say yes when you really mean no. And that's one of those ways. I mean, I think there's other ways to do it. Like in a conversation, if you're like, hey, can you, uh, you know, can you help me with something? My. My router isn't working at the office. It's like, well, that's not what we do. But I can say no by, like, being like, but I do know this person. Right. So, like, figuring out other pathways. So you're not just the one going like, nope, sorry. Uh, and I think pricing is a way to do that. Sometimes it's like the person comes along, has all the red flags in the world, but there's still something interesting about it. And you're like, well, I really don't want to work with that person, so I'm going to price it. Where if I do, it's worth the pain and the suffering that might come. But also there's a solid chance that they're going to just pass as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But at least then it's their decision.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Not yours. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Because that closes doors, that stops referrals. Like, we've had people where we've done that say, oh, I'm sorry, that's too much for us right now. But they tell other someone else about us. But if you're just like, uh, Even if you say it politely and you don't mention their red flags but you tell them no, it sets this, like, kind of underlying negativity. I think in the person's, uh, mind, they're a lot less likely to be like, hey, I heard you need this thing. Well, the sky floor does it. No, they're not going to do that.

Speaker B: Yeah, people don't like to be told they can't have what they want.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I think that's that dynamic, isn't it? What do you mean? You won't even give me a quote. How dare you Right, no, it's true. Yeah. Although if it were me, I'd be getting anxiety about the referral though. So if I've given them my extra high pricing and they've said no and then they sent me someone else, I'm like, oh no, now what do I do? Do I give them my normal pricing or the extra high? Oh yeah, I mean that is definitely over.

Speaker A: Uh, right. I mean we do a non profit rate for. You know, sometimes I think that same thing where I'm like, I mean we usually are upfront about it. Look, if you're a non profit, we believe in what you're doing, we'll probably, we're going to give you a better deal than the same business. But nonetheless you're like, who's talking to who? And where did that referral come from? And therefore what are they expecting? Yeah, yeah, but, but at the end of the day it's like, well it is whatever the price I say it is is right now. And so that's fair. Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, the time has come for the last question. This is my favorite one and I've had a lot of people struggling with it for one specific reason recently. So it's leadership heroes. Leadership heroes. And if you had to pick one person, but it can be anyone you could think of. So they could be alive or dead, past or present, real or fictitious, but someone who in your opinion, perfectly embodies leadership. Who is that for you and why?

Speaker A: Yeah, okay, so, and I don't know if this is a generic answer that other people give or not, but I could not get away from the idea of Jesus. And I'll tell you why, because, and it won't surprise you, given all the other things I've said, one, I think it's really interesting that he had this like circles mentality. So, right. He had the disciples, we all know that. But he had three core ones that were closer to him. Then there was the 12, then the broader followers and then the crowds. And I think there's a lot to be said for like one, how we recharge ourselves, uh, as leaders through that. So like I think we need a core group of people, uh, and that are close to us, but then like a little wider net. But also like when we're influencing people, it helps to have these kind of circles and rungs of influence. And I think there's like a cycle there of recharging and influence that I take from that. Uh, and then this one might be people's first reaction if they are using him. But like the Washing of the feet. I mean, just being. Showing a servant attitude towards the people you interact with, the people, very people he's supposed to be leading. I mean, if you not to get into, like, all the religious history, but like, the disciples called him Rabbi because he was their teacher. Right. And then someone in that position should never lower themselves to washing dirty feet. And he did it. Uh, so you see this example of a servant hood. And then this example of these kind of circles that expand out. And so I just think, like, even though he can be obviously divisive and, uh, there's some philosophically challenging things, I think for a lot of people. But, um, I just love that he led but did it in the trenches. He got on the floor. He did both things. And I find that inspiring.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it won't surprise you that he comes up a lot. I think probably, like, top one or two most frequent.

Speaker A: I, I, you know, it's so hard. Cause I look at, I mean, I thought of a lot of options. And, like, as I'm doing it, I'm like, there's. And I can see. I, I know some people would say they might find Jesus problematic. Right. I think that that could be a lot of people's experience. But, um, but everyone else I could think of, I was like, oh, man, there's some, like, really weird stuff. Like, I've written a lot about Walt Disney. Cause I think there's some interesting stuff about him, you know, and it's like. But there's some stuff that I just can't.

Speaker B: So that, that does intrigue me. Because I would have said Walt Disney's significantly more problematic than Jesus, but.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, no, he is more problematic than Jesus. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Significantly. Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. That's why I landed where I did. Because I can't. Because it's, like, a little bit hard. It's a little bit hard to, like, reconcile. I don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I think there is a. There is a. Depending on how extreme the bad parts of whatever person you choose are. Ah. I think there is something to be said for being able to take the lessons of the good parts.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And, um, not the bad parts.

Speaker A: No, totally. Right. Like, uh, I read the Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson. Super fascinating. I'm in the middle of the Elon Musk one. Speaking of divisive people. And, and like, it's super interesting. And they, like, both guys push the world forward in a lot of ways. Both guys, like, have so much stuff that you don't want to emulate. Right. Like, I don't. Anyway, speaking of leadership styles, like, it's just being, uh, bombastic and. And aggressive sometimes when it seems like it wasn't necessary.

Speaker B: Um, and just the way they treat people as well.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Terr.

Speaker A: So, like, I agree. Right. Like, you can read those books and be like, well, I don't have to love everything about this person in order to learn something from them, but.

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. You can pick and choose what you. What you choose to. What you decide to learn or apply from that. Right. Yeah, I think so. I mean, Jesus does come up quite a lot, but. Yeah, that's. And the servant leadership one, obviously, is a classic rationale for it. But I really love that circles point you made and. Yeah, the way of using those different kind of groups of people for recharging. That's. That's a really great point and not one we've heard before, even when others have spoken about him in this question, so. Oh, yeah, there you go.

Speaker A: There we go.

Speaker B: You managed to be different anyway.

Speaker A: Good. Well, I. I've loved that idea so much that, like, I. I don't think I'm gonna make it because I don't know that it has real legs. But, like, I've often wanted, like, a personal CRM, basically, that, like, is built around that idea of, like, all right, in this season of my life, like, who are the people in my, like, core group right close to me? What's that next tier? Like, actually ordering a little bit around that notion of, like, how. Where am I focusing? Who am I getting things from or giving things to in a way that, like, it isn't just haphazard and all over the place and potentially draining.

Speaker B: I mean, it feels like future potential teenage drama, doesn't it? If anyone else were ever to see it.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: What do you mean I'm not in the inner circle? Uh, that's right.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. The MySpace top 12 or whatever it was top 10 is nothing compared Tom. Yeah, I mean, Tom can only be the first one for so long.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Awesome. Well, Joel, thank you so much for being with us today. I've really enjoyed talking to you. Last small thing I will ask you is if anyone in the audience wants to learn more about you or your business, uh, where can they go? What are the links?

Speaker A: Yeah, they can head to theskyfloor.com. that's the name of our business, and we have blogs there. You can learn about my brother and I and our philosophy and subscribe if you want to reach out. If you want to have a conversation? I'd love to meet you.

Speaker B: Awesome. Well, I will put that link down there in the show notes so everyone can find that easily and that's what we've got time for. Thank you so much for being with us. Have a great rest of your day.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me,

Speaker B: Joel. Thank you again. I really enjoyed digging into some unconventional wisdom there on leadership, business and more. Listener, viewer, uh, if you would like to learn more about Joel and what he does do, check those show notes. His website is down there. You can click on that, learn more things and reach out to him as well. Perhaps if you like the cut of his jib and you'd like to work with him or you'd like his help on your business, company, employer and so on, I'm sure he'd love to hear from you. And as I mentioned at the top of the show, if you are a new or struggling technical leader working in a highly specialist company or environment and you are looking for some leadership Support, do visit leadingwithintegrity.co.uk It's a recently revamped website, so I'd love some feedback on it actually. But also you can take my Leadership Heroes quiz. You can click the link to come and join us at Integrity Leaders and be part of a community of leaders just like you. That's all we've got time for today. Hope you've enjoyed the show. Thank you for listening and do come back again next week when I'll be talking the perils, trials and pitfalls of everything from project management, it, tech, business, leadership, founding a company right the way through to sustainable fashion and building a technology company with my next guest, who has done all of those things and is currently doing several of those things. Her name is Lacy Kadu McLean. So it's an interesting conversation, that one. A bit off again, Bit off, uh, Our beaten path. We're going down a new avenue. It's an industry we've not really touched on before. So as you may know by now, I love doing that. It's always great to hear new and different perspectives. So it is a good conversation. Don't miss it. I'll see you then. And in the meantime, stay cool if you can, and be a leader, not a boss. Sam? Mhm.