The Leadership Lesson Hidden in America's Story

Speaker A: Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Ronald Reagan Every generation has been asked the same question. What will you do with the freedom that you've inherited? That's what leadership really is. So as we get ready to celebrate America's 250th birthday, I ask you to reflect on what makes America America. Is it our Constitution, Our freedoms, our military, our economy, our, our diversity as we celebrate 250 years of independence this 4th of July. I've been thinking about that question and I don't think the answer is that we are some perfect utopia of a society and we certainly aren't on some sure path to continued success, but rather that we are an anti fragile collection of values, people and ideals that struggle through test after test. Our history is filled with setbacks. We've lost battles. We've endured civil war. We lived through economic collapse, terrorist attacks, natural disasters, and moments where the future looked uncertain. Through it all, one thing has remained. We get back up. In today's interview, I sat down with Army Colonel Steve Messenger. During our conversation, Steve reminded me that the story of America is the story of getting punched in the face and choosing to come back stronger. I couldn't think of a better leadership lesson to celebrate 250 years and of this incredible experiment we call the United States of America. Whether you're leading a company, a project, a family, or simply trying to become a better version of yourself, adversity isn't the exception, it's the assignment. Question isn't whether life will knock you down. The question is whether you'll get back up. Uh, we are America. We do hard things. Happy Independence Day. I'm BJ Kramer and these are Leadership Blueprints. Welcome back to Leadership Blueprints everybody. I'm your host, BJ Kramer. We are in the midst of graduation season and as a West Point grad that's also commissioning season today, my guest is actually an intro. He's a local ish, uh, gent. He was the professor of military science at Drexel University. For one of my employees who was a young lieutenant that, uh, transitioned off active duty a couple years ago and joined mcfa. Joey Groton. Shout out to Joey. Steve messenger, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Hey, thanks. I appreciate being here.

Speaker A: Great having you and uh, excited to dig in. A lot of our guests, you know, we, we have a lot of interviews with folks that have had long careers. They're senior senior leaders, maybe in public agencies, maybe in private corporations. But a lot of the show is about developing other leaders and I don't think of any place better to develop leaders than inside of and ROTC program. So I know we'll get to your bio as we discuss, but I hear that you just recently did a, uh, commissioning speech.

Speaker B: Yeah, I was out at Valley Forge for The commissioning of 10 Drexel University ROTC students from a number of different campuses in Philly. Just a great area, great opportunity, um, to mentor young cadets into lieutenants and see that and celebrate with their family. And the message I had to them, I like to say it. Whenever you're given a speech, you want to have, like, three words to take away. We did a, uh, army war college graduation last year, and the general said three things to all new colonels. He said, colonels play offense. Like that stuck in my head. Three words. If you can come out with three

Speaker A: words, I already learned something.

Speaker B: You got it. So maybe I'll ask you this. At your commissioning at West Point, do you remember the speaker and the takeaway from it?

Speaker A: Yes. Donald Rumsfeld was our speaker.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: And the thing I took away was, to whom much is given, much is required.

Speaker B: Yeah, like eight, ten words right there. Right. That's the theme that you had. So I wanted to give a theme to the cadets.

Speaker A: He didn't prep me for that either, but it did stick with me.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good speaker when you can take that message. So I told the cadets three words I want you to remember. Do your best. Period. Now, notice I didn't say be the best or do the best, but do your best. And this stems from a stoic story. I'll say. I heard it from Ryan Holiday. It was actually from Jim. Jimmy Carter's book, why not the Best? But Jimmy Carter, when he graduated as an ensign from the Naval Academy, he goes and does an interview with the. The Godfather of the Nuclear Navy or Admiral Hyman Rickover. This guy served 63 years in the Navy. So he goes to this interview, and the Admiral asks him all these questions like, hey, let you guide the conversation. And Jimmy Carter talked about sailing and whatever his passions were, right. And. And the admiral, like, challenged him on everything, and he realized how little he knew in these subjects he thought he was smart on. So the very end, the Admiral says, hey, what number did you graduate in your class? And, uh, what can I ask you? What number did you graduate? Do you remember?

Speaker A: I don't remember. I. I will say below the mid.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: I think I was top. Top 5%, maybe even top 20. Physically, you get it. You get a physical. A military and an academic. So thanks to physical and military. My academic got closer to the, to the middle.

Speaker B: But well, Jimmy Carter graduated 50 something. I think it was 57 out of 7, 20. He was top 8%. He's uh, really proud of that. He's like, I was 50 something. And the admiral kind of thought about it and it was real silent, awkward pause. And he said, did you do your best? And Jimmy Carter, he thought about it and he thought about all the times he could have been studying more, he could have tried harder, he could have not slacked off. And he answered honestly and he said, you know what, sir, I didn't do my best. I could have done better. And as the story goes in his book, the admiral turns his chair around and says, why not? And uh, the interview was over, just silence. And he walked out of the room and he thought about that the rest of his career. Why didn't I do my best? And it haunted him to the point of trying so hard in all these different areas. President peanut farmer. Uh, you know, he just did so much after the presidency.

Speaker A: Author. He's an extraordinary after post presidency.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And like a very commoner. Right. I don't know enough about him, but I remember seeing something he was helping build like homeless housing in Habitat for Humanity and.

Speaker B: Oh, did he? Yeah. And he's out in uh, brokering peace deals. Right. In all these different countries after his presidency. Yeah. Uh, amazing. So he always thought about that. Did I do my best? And that was the message I wanted to give the cadets, commissionees. My daughter just graduated college last week. What's the message to all these new leaders going out there? Just do your best and let everything else wash out.

Speaker A: Just do your best and let everything. When you get into the honest of that, it's like I think this is something that every leader is going to have to juggle. Is doing your best in your career while trying to do your best in your family, while trying to do your best. When you start having trade offs in life, how do you make the decision of what is enough versus what is your best?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think Jimmy Carter in the Naval Academy or you at West Point, you're very focused, right. On graduating. Survive, don't die. Right. Survive in commission. That's your job. But you're right, as we get older, we have split priorities. So I was a captain at Fort Dix, New Jersey. I was newly, uh, not promoted, but put in a position, an operations officer, a major position as a captain. And I'm running a million miles an hour simultaneously. I have a pregnant wife at Home with our third child. I committed to running a marathon, the Philly Marathon, with my dad in 2005. And then I'm doing a master's degree program from Central Michigan University. So I am waking up at 5am running M. You know, miles, I'm working late to like 7, 8 at night. I come home and I'm working on the, the master's program. And meanwhile I have a pregnant wife like walking around my house. And you're right, you cannot focus on all four things. I was roying myself burning the candle at all ends. So you have to be your best in the moment. Right. So when you're home with your spouse, you have to be your best with her or him. Uh, when you're at work, you have to be the best and focused on that job. When you're running your miles in the be efficient, don't run more than you have to. Right. And it's just about showing up in the moment and being your best there.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that gets into, you know, an age of distraction and the ability to be present. I think that is one of the best gifts to be where you are and be all in where you are, set you up for success. And I understand you still teach leadership, but you were responsible for developing four different years of cadets. I think that whether it's rotc, West Point, the commissioning process, there's so much focus. Our job is to be a leader. Our job is not to be the technical expert. Our job is not to be the smartest person in the room. Our job is to be a leader. And therefore I think that we get more leadership development, more leadership academic training, and I think because of it more leadership awareness than probably any other portion of the population. So we come from a military organization and the army in particular. Hierarchical command. There's developmental assignments along the way. You have to, you know, you have to check these blocks to even be able to move up. But constantly being groomed to be a leader at the next higher level. Most other organizations like, ah, uh, you did pretty good at that. So we're going to make you the leader. What is it that we in the army get right? Specifically at that phase, 18 to 22 year olds, that widen the aperture to what leadership is and how to think about being a leader.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think we force people into uncomfortable situations where they have to grow. And I teach a class, it's called Failing with the Stoics. It's a stoic class, but it focuses on how does failure help us succeed in life. And I talk about the bio. So I've read your bio, right? You have a very impressive bio you're teaching. You graduated West Point army officer, running a company, uh, running this incredible podcast. Right. 200 plus episodes. Amazing, incredible bio. But when I read your bio, I don't see all the fails behind it. All the times that we've challenged you. The we, the world, the army put you in positions of increasing responsibility to force you to fail. So I had a, uh, four star general I work for at Transcom, and he had a theory of organizational management, uh, called the Cube. And he divided people into four categories, general categories. He would say you talked about performance and potential. So if you have high performance but no potential, he would call you a solid citizen. A solid citizen comes into work every day. They're going to make, they're assigned to make 100 widgets. They're going to make 100 widgets that day. They're going to kill it. And they're going to come in at nine, leave at five. Right. So that's their hours. They're going to show up at nine and they're going to leave that.

Speaker A: That five.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean like 445. Right. But they're going to make their 100 widgets. We love them and what we do to them. We thank those people. Thank you for doing your job. Not everybody's going to be an allstar. We appreciate that. Right. And then you have people that you're talking about, I call them the low performance but high potential. And it's not their low performance because they're incompetent or they're lazy or it's because we're putting them in new positions that challenge them. Right. We commission you and as a second lieutenant, you, me, I commissioned all these cadets that we're talking about and we're

Speaker A: like, hey, there's a saying. First, what's, what do they call the first person in the class? Second lieutenant, they call the last person in the class.

Speaker B: And congratulations, you have zero experience. You're in charge of these 50 people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You're like, what are you talking about? Every single person in the organization has more experience than I do. And you are, you're going to fail.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like your job is to keep an open mind. Listen to your senior enlisted sergeant. All right? Uh, and your job is to learn and grow and develop. And we kind of say that in the military like that end at second lieutenant or first lieutenant or cap, but it doesn't because then you become a captain and you were a company commander. Right? We're like, hey, congratulations, you're a company commander day one. I not really sure what I'm doing. Yeah, and you have to learn and grow and fail. And the failures are what says in your bio, I was a successful engineer. Company commander. Yes, but it doesn't say all the problems, uh, you had in the past.

Speaker A: I agree with you 100%. From a strategic ecosystem and from a pathway. I mean, I think we all can agree that our careers are built on taking on more responsibility than we're capable of and figuring it out. And when you're figuring stuff out, uh, sometimes you, you have to do it 99 times to find the hundredth way to actually solve the problem. So there's all those, those micro mistakes. I think that the army does it better than anybody. And despite, like, there's always the, the, uh, don't call me sir. I work for a living. Officer, nco officer, enlisted jabbing. It works. The Sergeant First Class Schmeling. Daniel Schmeling, my platoon sergeant over in Iraq, the first Sergeant, Glenn Collier. They take pride in the fact that they are the advisor and the developer of somebody who is in charge is the leader, is the commander. How do we create that in private sector?

Speaker B: Let me tell you my overarching leadership theory, uh, and I call it the brag theory. Uh, and it's the four characteristics of leadership, right? And it's not about bragging about yourself, it's about bragging about your team. It's a servant leadership model. I'm a big servant leadership guy, and I say the first thing you need to be a great servant leader is be competent. Nobody wants to follow an incompetent person. So if you're in charge of somebody, the first thing you need is competence, right? So your job to be a servant leader is to put on the four characteristics of what a soldier wears into battle based on the acronym Bragg. So the first is the boots. The B and the boots stand for be present with your people, put boots on the ground, walk the terrain. Right? That's important. The R stands for the regimentals. It's a fancy word for the uniform.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: And on your uniform you have your name tag on Your right, the U.S. army on the left. And I say with the regimentals, place service over self. The right hand side, my name, my last name on my uniform is interesting. The left hand side, US army is compelling. It's about the team, it's about the unit. And place service over anything you want to do individually. The A is for the armor that you put on, and that's to be resilient to life's attacks, because life is going to attack you. They're going to come at you, and you have to be able to withstand any issues or problems that you have. And then the G is for the gun. Now, everyone in the military knows we call it a rifle, but if I use that, the acronym would be brow. And like, get your own acronym. It doesn't work right? So brag works, but the gun stands for close and destroy the enemy, right? Close with. You have to get close, you have to take action. You got to be successful in your mission. And then I add a plus one. It's actually Bragg plus one. And that's the belt of leadership. That's to keep your pants up. Because a leader cannot have a hint, a sniff, or a whiff of impropriety about them. And if you can do those five things at any level you're at, whether you're a second lieutenant coming in, whether you're a general officer, whether you are a enlisted person, whether you're in the private sector running hard hat electrical in some building or working in an office, if you can put boots on the ground, if you can play service over self, if you can be resilient to all the bad stuff that's going to happen in life, and if you can complete your mission while having not a hint, sniff, or whiff of impropriety about you, you're going to be incredibly successful in both your eyes and feel good about yourself and in the eyes of the people that work for you and they want to follow someone like that.

Speaker A: That's awesome. I like that. Uh, I might have to steal it. You have led in combat. You have taught a lot. You've been in logistics, reserves, and active duty. What is your greatest leadership lesson learned along the way?

Speaker B: To me, it just comes back to be okay with failure. Nobody else cares that you're failing out there but you. So let me tell a story I tell in my Stoics class. It's about, uh, this ancient philosopher crates, and he has a student named Zeno. And Zeno is like, I'm going to kind of paraphrase the story a lot, right? But Zeno doesn't really want to fail in public. So Kratos, like, hey, here's what I want you to do. Carry this big bowl of lentil soup through the marketplace. So he's walking around and he's embarrassed and he's kind of sneaking around the shadows like, why am I doing this? I look like an idiot. And he Comes back, how'd it go? I'm embarrassed. Right, great. I want you to do it again tomorrow. Does the same thing, comes back embarrassed. Day three. Now do it again. So he's out in the marketplace and Kraties jumps out from behind a wall and spills soup, like, all over himself, right? And he's sitting there and he's embarrassed and he's like, man, everybody's staring at me like, why did you do that? And the philosopher teacher says, look around in the busy marketplace. No one cares. No one is looking at you. No one cares that you're a disaster. They all care about the soup that's on their. The metaphor soup that they spilled. Right. You're thinking about their problems. So if you can go out and be a guy who like, spills soup on themselves and be like, it's cool, man. Like, I'm going to do better next time. I'm going to do better next time. Oh, I failed a decision. I screwed up this physical event. I didn't earn my expert soldier badge or whatever badge you're going for, or I messed something up in building something. Right. Engineering. That's okay, as long as it's not a catastrophic failure.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, you have to know when to fail. Go out and be better next time.

Speaker A: All right, now let's talk to the leaders that are allowing people to fail and know that you have to spill some soup. How, how does the military, or how do you teach this in academia? The awareness that you have to give people just enough room to fail, make mistakes without the catastrophic failure.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it's knowing when. I love this article by Command Sergeant Major Michael Burke. He's. He might be retired now, but he was a brigade command sergeant major in Washington state.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And he wrote an article on from the Green Notebook called More Leaders need to get Punched in the Face. So he shows up at the Friday night fights in his battalion and he challenges the biggest, baddest dude in the battalion to a, uh, combative fight. And some 25 year old, like, MMA fighter specialist shows up like, y' all challenge, right? And like, oh, my goodness, this was a mistake. And he gets in the ring and they're grappling, and within a minute or two, he just gets slammed in the face like punched, blood, everything. And the medics are attending to him. Um, they're like, sergeant Major, like, you should be done. He's like, no, I'm going back in right now. They cheer him on. So he gets back in the fight, he loses the fight, and at the end, they hold up the specialist hand and the whole crowd, his 800 soldiers, that he's the leader, senior enlisted leader in this organization are like cheering for him. Who lost because he got in the ring. It's the Teddy Roosevelt man in the arena speech.

Speaker A: Such a great quote.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it's the man who gets in the arena and fights and has blood and. Exactly. Michael Burke. Right. War and sweat and dust and who fails and gets up and tries again. That's what you need to show people is acceptable. But if you're not modeling it and you're like, I'm the perfect leader and everybody knows that's not true, but you perceive that you're not doing a service

Speaker A: to them, which goes back to the. No impropriety.

Speaker B: Yeah, right, yeah. Transparency, no impropriety. So let's relate that to like not all of us are in combatives. Right. We can all just jump into a combatives ring in the public sector. But what does that mean? So when I took Command of Fort McCoy Garrison, Fort McCoy, 2500 people. One of the things was when I started taking over, like the commander could be more visible. Like, okay, you know, challenge accepted. Right, Right. So I take command on a Thursday and on Friday morning 05, I'm on the gate, front gate, one gate shut down the other one, funnel all traffic through here. And I'm going to scan ID cards of people coming in and every single person is going to see me, the new commander coming in and be like, oh, I know that guy. I'm going to introduce myself to every single person. And like, I failed at this. I have a line now backing up onto the main road. And all the security underestimated the police. DoD police are like, hey, sir, you gotta get this going. And I'm like, oh, it's good, it's good. They're like, it's not good. Right. So we're trying to filter people through. And I like, it was a great idea and a little bit of failure and at the same time success came out of it.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: So leaders we're talking about, how do senior leaders or leaders at any echelon, Totally boots on the ground, be present, be approachable and just have interactions with them. Showing you you're. Hey, sir, you were, I saw you at the gate this morning, that was awesome. You know, you backed up traffic, you know you failed, right? You're like, yeah, I did. Like, thanks, I appreciate that. Uh, you know, it's a laugh.

Speaker A: It's obvious that you love leading and that you love the topic of leadership. What what draws you to lead?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I really love it because I was so bad at it growing up, especially as a young officer. I failed in the regimental piece. Service over self. I'm like, this is about me. And it's about the number of badges I can acquire or my rank or my, you know, prestige or my accomplishments or my accolades. And I didn't really get it until I was probably a major when I'm like, nothing. It has nothing to do with me. And maybe I figured it out a little more because I'll talk about my biggest failure real quick. So there's a cadence in the military. Uh, I want to be an Airborne Ranger, right? We all sing it as we're running. That's what I wanted to do. I want to be an airborne Ranger as a cadet. And I'm, I'm going to do it right. That's my goal in life. So I commission an infantry officer, I go to airborne school, I go to Ranger school. And I get hurt and I'm embarrassed and it's devastating. I tore my thigh muscle, right? And I'm in rehab for weeks. And then I get shipped to the 82nd Airborne Division.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I show up as an infantry lieutenant without a Ranger tab on my shoulder. And that is not the culture there, right? First thing, everyone's like, when are you going back to Ranger school? And I'm like, I know, uh, yes, please. So I train up more. By now I'm like six months of training into this school. And for those who don't know, Ranger school is a 63 day school. It's down in Georgia. And you get like four hours of sleep on average a night. You don't eat a lot. It's just really. It's terrible, right? But, uh, you learn so much. It's important to go. So I go back, I'm like, I'm m going to do it. I get hurt again, right? I fall off an obstacle. I wake up at a concussion. You drop from the course. And I go back in shame again, right? And what I realized through this whole process now we're like a year and a half of trying to get through Ranger school. And I've spent more time training for Ranger school and in it than, uh, like any other person at this point. What I realized is it's not the tab that you're wearing on your shoulder, not your position, it's not your rank, it's not your, it's not anything about you. It's how you treat other people. It's how you competent you are. And I learned so much in failing that I'm, uh, a incredibly exceptional lieutenant all of a sudden, and I didn't even know it. Like, I'm chasing a badge. Uh, and I should have been chasing being competent and leading people better. So that's where it clicked on me. And I'm like, I need to get better at this. I need to not chase things. I need to chase people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I need to serve.

Speaker A: Serve.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That's great. What, did we not touch on that? You want to make sure we hit before I go into some rapid fire questions.

Speaker B: Uh, so let me tell a story about Jack Hughes, because he's one of my favorite guys right now. He's.

Speaker A: Tell me who he is.

Speaker B: New Jersey Devil Hockey. Ice hockey player. So if you remember back in the Winter Olympics, America was Canada in the gold medal round, right? And we haven't won since the Miracle on ice in 1980. So Jack Hughes, third period, tied 1 1, takes stick to the face and lose his teeth. He's spitting Chiclets out on the ground. You remember this?

Speaker A: I do.

Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. I couldn't believe it. So he gets up and he goes to the locker room. You're like, well, Jack's out, right? But lo and behold, minutes later, he comes skating out on the ice and scores the game, winning the golden goal to win the gold medal championship for the first time in 46 years. Amazing. And this is what I talk about when I think of failure, Right? Like, I just got hit in the face.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I could go to the locker room and just cry right now. Or I could come out and score the game winning goal.

Speaker A: Sergeant Major.

Speaker B: Yes. Get punched in the face. And as I reflected on this is what I tell my students, whether they're cadets or colonels, this is the story of America. America just gets punched in the face and then comes back. And that's what I love about leadership, Right? It's like you're going to get punched in the face, you're going to lose some teeth. Okay. A stoic would say, you can't control what happens to you. You can only control how you respond to it. I have soup all over myself, and I'm okay with that. And then you come back stronger. So our life is the story of Jack Hughes. I like to say end of America, end of leadership. When we get punched in the face, all we have to do is come back and be stronger.

Speaker A: You use the word resilient with the brag, but the, uh, Nassim Talib talks about antifragile which is when you. When you absorb something, you actually come back stronger. And he created this. I think he created the word, which I love, because fragile is you break easily. Resilient is you come back to the same. Antifragile is when you. When you take a hit, you actually come back stronger. And I love that sense. And I love that sense of America and of leadership.

Speaker B: So. So I think fragile is knowing you're going to break. Resilient is knowing you're going to take a hit and come back. So I'll tell a quick story. Muhammad Ali, right? He was drafted. He's like, I'm not going to war. He gets kicked out of boxing for a little while, and then he comes back and he's like, okay, I'm back. I'm four years older, and I'm going to fight George Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle, if you remember this story. So George Foreman, bigger, stronger, a little slower, right? But he's going to, like, punish Muhammad Ali, who's not in shape anymore. So he gets in the ring and he's like, well, the only way to win this thing. Thing is he not invents, but he. The rope a dope, right? And you need two things for the rope a dope. You need a rope, and you need a dope. So he decides Muhammad Ali is going to back up into the ropes. He's going to let George Foreman just pummel him in the ring and exhaust himself. And after a while, George Foreman is just tired from, like, pummeling him. That in the subsequent rounds, Muhammad Ali's just fresh, and he comes back and he wins the fight. But he won this because of the ropes, right? The ropes held him up. And, uh, I don't know if you Remember back in 2020, the army came up with the Golden Triangle. And they said the soldier is in the middle. And it needs three things to be successful. The person, and that's a boss who is competent and cares about him, exemplifies the Bragg theories. Peers that are supportive, and then a family and friend network that lifts them up. So your boss is supportive, you have peers that you can talk to, and then you go home and you have a safe support system. And I call those the three ropes of boxing. Your boss, your peers, your family and friends. And when you get pummeled by life, you have to bounce off those ropes and come back stronger and then be ready to go in the subsequent rounds. But you need all three of those ropes or else you're just going to, like, flip over the top.

Speaker A: Yeah. I like it. All right, I'm going to move to some rapid fire questions. I can tell you're super well read, and I do love, um, Ryan Holiday. Any favorite books in your library or most gifted books in your library?

Speaker B: You know, I have, like, some very foundational books. Bible's number one. This is my copy of the Constitution, uh, that I'll share with you real quick. When I commissioned 19 cadets in 2019, I gave them a copy of the Constitution, this one. And I wrote a note in it and I signed it. And my daughter would say, dad, you're not a founding father. You can't sign the Constitution. Right? But I gave him this. And then I had them, the 19 students, sign my Constitution. And anyone I've commissioned or retired or promoted, or all the civilians back here that have taken the oath of office with me, raise your right hand and Repeat after me. 212 names in this book have signed mine, and we are inextricably linked. So this is like my prize possession. That's awesome that I have, um, and then Marcus Aurelius meditation. I love that. But the book I want to highlight that I just read is no Rules Rules by Reed Hastings. He's the Netflix CEO and he talks about the Netflix culture. Basically, talent density. I just wrote an article on the Maximum Standard about this that, uh, came out on Tuesday. And he says, look, you just have to hire the best people. And that's the bottom line. And Netflix is kind of crazy. Like, pay them an exorbitant spee. They're not doing well. Average performance gets you a generous severance package. Like, move on and find the best people, because the best person is going to outwork in creative spaces. Uh, an average person exponentially. Right? So he talks about that. He talks about removing rules. Like, no leave rule. You can take as much leave as you want. Just do your job. And he talks about giving feedback to people relentlessly. This won't work in most cultures, right? This is a very Netflix y thing. But you can take so much great stuff from, uh, just thinking about how to eliminate rules and pass authority down, how you can give feedback better in any organization, and how you can hire talent that is going to be very successful. So I highly recommend that book right now. All right, no rules. Rules. Any favorite quotes I mentioned? I have a leadership website called the Maximum Standard. So I talk about this concept, um, because it stems from. I know you said rapid fire. I'm kind of extending these.

Speaker A: You're good.

Speaker B: It extends to military PT tests. The last event is always a Run, maybe it's a mile and a half, maybe it's a three mile, depending on the service. And you can stand at the finish line of any one of these runs and you can see who's trying and who's not. Who knows what the minimum standard is? Like I'm just going to make the minimum. I'm going to be a solid citizen. I'm going to do 100 widgets today, right. And they cross the line. They're not even sweaty or panting. They're like, hey, I passed, I'm a minimum person. And then you see who achieved the maximum standard, like who exceeded their, their goals. So I talk about the maximum standard and that's just, you know, doing your best, but it's living up to your true full potential for you and the team that you lead and just elevating your game every single time.

Speaker A: I think most people want, maybe need somebody to see that in them. And to me that is the calling of leadership is to know that most people need somebody that sees it in them, believes in them and then pushes them, pulls them sometimes to find their potential and then to exceed it.

Speaker B: So that's why you need to know who your solid citizens are. Right. And what do you do with that group? You thank them profusely. Uh, the four star general, he would always say, I start every meeting and I end every meeting with a thank you. And I will always do that. And I wait for someone on these command climate surveys, when you rate your boss to say, oh, he thanks me too much, stop. And he said that never happened. Right. So you thank them. But the learners, the guys that gals that were putting in harder positions were challenging them. They're failing. That's what you do. You thank them and you challenge them. Yeah, I didn't talk about the high potential, high performance people. They're the top rate quadrant.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They're what we would call the stars. They're about 10% of your workforce. They, you don't need to thank them. Um, you don't need to challenge them. You just let them run. Right. They're off and running. And then you have the lower 10%, the low performance, low potential. And he would call them the deadwood. Right. You, there has to be some cuts in your organization because if you have a really terrible employee, the other 90% of the company is looking at it and being like, what, what are you going to do about that? Are you going to move them to a solid citizen or are you just going to accept this behavior and drag the rest of the Team down.

Speaker A: Jack Welch talked about he had this, uh. I don't know if this is urban legend or true, but the bottom 10% would always get fired. And not fired from the organization, but fired from the job. Because if you're the bottom 10%, you're not in the right job. And I can either let you, um, survive there's. And 20 years from now or 10 years from now or three years from now when we have a downturn, you're the first to go. Or I can try to move you around the organization so you find where you're not a 10%, bottom 10%, living

Speaker B: in the sweet spot of life, where your talents and your passions intersect with opportunity. And if you can find that, maybe you're in a position where you're not talented or you're not passionate about it. How do we find you a place where you are and raise your level of performance and desire?

Speaker A: If you could have dinner with three people, dead or alive, who would they be?

Speaker B: Uh, I sit down with Jesus. I sit down with George Washington. And I would sit down with probably just, uh, a relative that has passed in the past. Me and my grandfather, who died, uh, in 1998, the day I jumped at it. My first planet ever in school.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, wow.

Speaker B: So, uh, yeah, I don't know. I would love to just talk to George GW about how he just failed in the American Revolution so many times, but literally got back on the horse and continued. And in my office, my, uh, home right now, I have the George Washington painting of him praying in front of his horse at Valley Forge.

Speaker A: My office.

Speaker B: Right. And you're like, where do you find the strength? And it's rooted in identity. And I see that, you know, in, uh, my grandfather. I see that. My point is, you're an engineer, right. You like math?

Speaker A: Maybe I can play one on tv.

Speaker B: I call this the identity lie. And it's a math problem. And it's. People think that my performance plus what other people think of me equal my identity. So what? My performance is variable.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It goes up and down every single day. What other people think of me is variable. Right. They're going to look at this podcast and be like, I hate that guy, or, I like that guy, just based on 10 seconds, right?

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Which means at the end of the day, my identity is variable. And, uh, it's all over the place.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I can't live like that. I have to have a constant identity. So that's a lie we tell ourselves. Oh, I feel good because I did good. And people like me. You can't live like that. You have to find something in your life that that grounds your identity. If you're not a religious person, what are you grounding yourself in? Your values, your family, your something.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And when you can do that, you no longer have this sine wave of identity, and you have a constant one in life. And you can go out and perform in any situation, good or bad.

Speaker A: What do you want your legacy to be?

Speaker B: I think if I do it right, this is a very stoic thing. Right. You don't have one. Like, it doesn't matter. No one's. Marcus really said, yeah, no one's going to remember you. That's true. He was the, uh, emperor king of Rome. He wrote meditations. They were all notes to himself. And you read it, and he's like, look at all these people that have gone before us. We don't even remember them. All these gravestones floating around. Nobody knows who they are. Ironically, everyone knows Marcus Aurelius, mainly because of the movie Gladiator in 2000. But if I'm doing it right, I am passing it on and making people better. And I see this as I reach the end of my career. I don't need a legacy. I need people behind me to be better. That's why I've been very blessed to teach cadets and commission them to teach colonels now and just encourage them to, you know, be their best. Yeah, but, you know, what's your legacy? It's go out and just be you. Be your best, do your best, and have success based on hard work.

Speaker A: Awesome. Steve messenger, thanks for, uh, joining us on the Leadership Blueprints podcast.

Speaker B: I appreciate it. Thanks.

Speaker A: Hey, everybody, do us a favor. If you're enjoying the show, if you liked our conversation, please share, uh, maybe with somebody in your life that just commissioned or just graduated or somebody that you think would just value the conversation. Till next time, have a great week and a great weekend.