Leadership in Action with Adrian Goddard

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Leadership at the Edge. I'm your host, Rebecca Martin. Every month we explore fresh ideas, real world stories from leaders making a difference in every sector, uh, everywhere. We'd love for you to join the conversation too. Connect with us on LinkedIn using the hashtag leadershipattheedge. And if you haven't already, hit subscribe on Spotify so you never miss an episode on. I'm really pleased to be joined by our exceptional leader, Adrian Goddard. Adrian is commercial director at, ah, the Chartered Institute of Payroll Professionals, cipp, leading strategic growth and fostering key partnerships across the payroll and wider workforce sector. With 20 years of commercial experience and 11 years leading high performing teams across the globe, Adrienne's known for her strategic leadership coaching mindset and passion for developing others outside ah, of work. Adrian's a certified mental health first aider, an executive coach, a proud family man, fitness enthusiast, musician, and someone who's deeply committed to his faith. My goodness, Adrian, you put me to shame there. Adrian, welcome to the show. It's fantastic to have you here, uh, and join us for this special collaboration.

Speaker B: Thank you, Becky. It's great to be here.

Speaker A: Adrian, as a start, I'd really like to go back to the beginning when you really started your, um, leadership career. How did you go from those early days to becoming the established leader you are today?

Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. Ah, we'll, we'll dive into that. So initially my intention wasn't actually to get into leadership. So initially what my intention was was that when I was, so I was working in commercial roles while I was in, um, education. Right. Um, and I got to the, in college, I got to a bit of a crossroad. And the crossroad was that I wanted to go to university and pursue, um, an English degree because I was quite passionate about English. I wanted to be an English teacher.

Speaker A: And that's quite different. The commercial mindset that you'd already started.

Speaker B: Oh, yes, very different. But I just had that passion for learning. Right. Um, but at the same time I was in a relationship.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, so I was a bit of a crossroads because if I went to uni, I'd have to leave the city. And I thought the relationship would likely break down.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: If I stayed, I could pursue, do it, but then I just have to, you know, be fully dedicated to just climbing up or whatever I did in the working world. So I decided to stay. It was a good decision in that, uh, it's now my wife and my wife, uh, this year is 17 years.

Speaker A: Wow. Congratulations, Adrian. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you. Um, I don't know, uh, why she's still held on to me, but you know what? I'll take it. It's fine. Um, but. But with that, when I was developing and growing and going on that journey within commercial roles, I still had that passion and that desire to invest in other people and to be able to educate and develop people, which was what the passion I had, uh, with teaching. So I was kind of racking my brain. And, um, my message was like, look, you can still go to uni. You can still go down that route if you wanted to. But I was really good at the, you know, the commercial and sales tax roles that I was in. I was like, well, how do I marry the two? I came to the conclusion that leadership was the way how to marry too, because I can use my commercial expertise while at the same time be able to develop and invest in other people. So, you know, and that's grown from not just teaching, but, you know, coaching, mentoring, all that kind of stuff. But it was really birthed out of that, that, uh, the catalyst to do that. And I think what also sits behind that is when. When I was growing up, I had this kind of cloud over my head of, um, this word. Potential. Yeah, right. I remember many times at, ah, like parents evenings, um, the teachers will say, you know, Adrian is. He's really good at this and. But he's not quite getting, you know, the grades that he could get. He's got so much potential.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: I would hear it for years. Right. And it was a continual frustration. And I think only when I got to college, I started to realize, according to the makeup of who I am and kind of how I'm configured as a person, let's say, how to start to tap into that and make sense of how I can see more of that and that reflected in my studies and how well I did. But I think that carrying that growing up, I think has fed into the passion as to why I want to invest and deposit into other people. Because I want to see them fulfill their potential. I want to see myself fulfill my potential. And really for people to be their best.

Speaker A: Really interesting. And it's interesting you haven't had probably the standard journey into leadership, like many of us, that we think we're going to take. Um, it's quite inspiring. There's lots of different routes to becoming a manager and leader, and I was interested. You're clearly very passionate about supporting, training and coaching others. Um, whether it was looking at teaching or now the role you're in at the moment. Where does that passion come from?

Speaker B: I think m it, the passion comes from, to be honest. Um, I think it comes from again, I think it comes from my household and my upbringing, to be honest. Like I remember just growing up and like my mum especially playing games with us and my mother wasn't the type whereby she would like, let us win. Yeah, yeah, I'd lose a lot, but I'd want to win. Do you know what I mean? And, and I think just that desire to, to win and to do better and be better and I think she's as much as I didn't have the, the most privileged upbringing, you know, I grew up in like a council estate, single parent home. Um, didn't have a lot growing up, I would say. But what my mum m always strived to do was to give us better and to, to push us to do better. And I think me and my, my siblings, I think we've all, you know, um, maintained that and it's been ingrained into us.

Speaker A: So you're now doing the next generation of doing better and giving back.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's what I drive my kids to do now. I got three kids. Mine are um, 15, 13 and 10. Um, I'm a bit more balanced in that I let them win sometimes but, but I still challenge them and I still like, you know, you've got to dig deep and you've got to fight and you've got to want to do better and be better.

Speaker A: Yeah. And especially in the commercial environment, it's interesting to have that edge and that competitive edge. I think it's really important.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. You've got to have that drive there.

Speaker A: M Moving on to your current role at cipp. You're really at the heart of a thriving professional community. Reflecting on the leaders within your community, what leadership qualities do you believe are ah, most important in that space today?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's such an important question this. I think so. I've been in the payroll industry since 2012. Um, and, and in entering into that payroll community, I've worked with payrollers and supported payrollers in different, uh, means and forms, namely through um, things like managed services, payroll platforms and things like that. To the nitty gritty of even helping, you know, payrollers process their payroll and, and such things. It's kind of helped as well that my wife's uh, an accountant by training.

Speaker A: Okay. So you get kind of the inside scoop.

Speaker B: Well, she took great pleasure in teaching me how to process payroll manually. So uh, which is not by choice, but I'm glad. I'm glad she did it because it helped. But I think it's just helped to give me an insight over the years as to, you know, some of the real challenges within payroll. And I think, even if I think of our advisory team within the cipp, which I'd say is one of our crown jewels in the support we give to the payroll community. And an example, in a situation such as we had one whereby, um, an individual, a lady, had given birth.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Right. She had twins. But one of them. One of them passed away before the other.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, which is. Which is awful, really. And. But the advisory team was asked if one has passed away and been delivered, but the other's still alive. When does the neonatal care kick in and when does the bereavement leave kick in? And how do you manage that, you know, from a communication point of view? So it's a case of you as a payroller, you really need a lot of compassion.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, you really need a lot of, like, empathy. You need. It's not just as simple as pushing

Speaker A: a button, because we think of the technical skills when we think of payroll, it's those soft skills. It's so critical for leaders in. That's community.

Speaker B: It's so much more than just a technical aspect. Right. You're dealing with people and the implications on their lives. And money. It's something that's so sensitive to all of us, especially in this country.

Speaker A: Like, we.

Speaker B: We don't like talking about money, uh, because it's so sensitive. And as a payroller, you're managing the. One of the most sensitive things in a person's life.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I think some of the other characteristics that you really need as a leader within or just within the payroll community is. Is I say forgiveness.

Speaker A: Oh, okay. That's interesting.

Speaker B: I say forgiveness because you process payroll.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The expectation is that it's accurate and that it's on time. M. People get paid. All right. My challenge would be, I wonder how many people even listen to this or how many people in organizations take a moment to stop and thank the payroller. Yeah, I know.

Speaker A: That's very true.

Speaker B: You know, who's actually worked tooth and nail many times outside of working hours to get it right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it. It can be quite a thankless task at times. Um, but at the same time, you've got to have a lot of patience and be quite centered, because if it does go wrong, you've then got panicking staff members, you know, and you've got to, like, manage your own emotions and Be quite centered and really be focused on the task of I've got to get it right.

Speaker A: Yeah, now that's a really interesting insight and it certainly opened my eyes to not just the technical elements but all those soft skills needed in the sector which are really critical to get it right. Brilliant. And the Institute of Leadership, we have a global community. Um, and I know you've worked on a global scale as well, Adrian. I'd be really interested to hear kind of your insights or your knowledge that you've learned on leadership across the globe. Because I know you've worked roi the US and apac. What differences have you noticed in leadership styles? Um, yeah, no, love to hear from you.

Speaker B: I think the type of leadership style that I've ah, mainly tapped into when it comes to dealing with international operations has more so been uh, coaching leadership style. And the reason why is because, you know, um, Republic of Ireland, apac, us Though I've visited such places, the fact is I don't understand the cultures as such. I don't understand the business practices and everything like that. Not anywhere near to the extent of the individuals that are located, you know, in those regions. So it was almost a gift from a coaching point of view in that it forces you into the place where you are not the specialist or the expert or you're not the person mentoring individuals and showing them the path. If anything you have to be more of a listener and an observer and you have to ask the right questions.

Speaker A: Which is sometimes one of the hardest skills to do, isn't it?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Because you can almost feel a little bit powerless. But it's more about let me study and almost dissect and get under the skin of what's going on within those regions and what the right approach should be. Because whatever our practices are in the uk, it, it doesn't always fit or uh, probably doesn't normally fit to take how we operate and then to do the same thing within a different area of the world. But there will be some elements that we can take away and apply that would be effective in different areas. So just been a case of engaging with those, the workforce and also you know, leaders and individuals within those regions get an understanding, understand the approach, where's the cross pollination and what our effective practices for them.

Speaker A: Yeah, and it's quite hard to be in that position as a leader to not know all the answers and not understand the market. Do you think that, do you think leaders can be lead in a market that they don't know?

Speaker B: 100 if you, if you practice the right type of leadership. Yes.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I guess you've got to have. I mean, I've had to do it, whereby. And I've been grateful to lead people where I don't have the expertise that they have.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But just to have that humility, to be like, look, you're the expert. Yeah, I can trust you. But actually, let's go on that journey together because there will be things that I'll be able to support them with. But again, it's a case of listening and understanding and knowing, well, what are the right decisions to make so that we can move forward and progress.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's really interesting. I think I'm picking up your listening skills and coaching as really critical, and they're really sign of your leadership skills. And within your role, you've done a lot of commercial functions which comes with really high pressure. Uh, not only you and for your team across the business. How do you manage that, Adrian?

Speaker B: Um, yes, yes, there is a lot of pressure. And the reason why there's a lot of pressure within commercial roles is because, in essence, you almost live or die by your number if you do not achieve what. Whatever that budget or target or forecast or whatever it may be. If you don't achieve it, it's very apparent that your performance.

Speaker A: There's nowhere to hide. Is that in commercial environment?

Speaker B: Absolutely. There's nowhere. And I think it crosses over quite nicely with payroll as well, in the sense that you've got a definitive time scale to perform and operate in a certain way. Um, and you have to get it right. Getting it right is almost like hitting that target. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Whereas if you get it wrong and you, in essence, underperform continually.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Really, you put your job at risk.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you. Whereas there are other areas of business whereby it isn't necessarily as black and white as that and it's not as easy to identify. So, yes, it's high pressure. I think it's a case of really tapping into the motivations of the workforce, um, equipping them and enabling them to be able to do a good job.

Speaker A: And it's that. Do you do that as an individual because everyone's motivation is quite different, or do you think there's kind of one motivation that works for everybody?

Speaker B: No, I think you've. You've. You've definitely got to take an individual approach.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, no one's the same.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Even if you categorize people by different, you know, various personality profiles, even within those same profiles, everybody's different. And there are different things going on in different people's lives at different times. So you've just got to take the time. And that's a problem because in leadership you don't always have the time, but you've got to. I choose to make the time and prioritize the time so that I can understand what those things are, uh, to best cater for the people I'm responsible for.

Speaker A: Okay, so it sounds like from your leadership style, coaching so important to you.

Speaker B: Oh, hugely.

Speaker A: Tell me more. Why is coaching so important to every leader?

Speaker B: I think because it feeds into empowerment and it feeds into bringing the best out of people. So I think when I first became a Leader Back in 2014, I was, um, I was well into coaching. But to be honest, I didn't really understand what coaching was. Right. Because I hadn't, I hadn't really studied it. I just knew that I wanted to empower the people I was responsible for wanting to bring the best out and all that kind of stuff, but not really the kind of intricate detail or the kind, um, of practices that sit behind that. So when I initially became a leader, though, I took that stance and I tried to take quite a hands off approach and be like, look, go, you know, you're free, you'll be amazing, all that kind of stuff and I'll give you what you need. Um, it was a bit of a frustration because I found that people, some people who weren't like me, they weren't performing as well.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I was like, why don't you just do what I did?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I see it a lot. I see that a lot with, especially with newer leaders, frustrated because the people they're responsible for are not operating like them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or not doing things how they think it would be effective to do. And it frustrated me a lot. And I had to learn. It's not about replicating yourself.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: See, it's about seeing people for who they are and trying to produce the best in them and what that looks like for them.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Now that might not look like the same output as you as a leader. It might be lower, it might be higher.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But it's. What is that level for them and how do we reach that?

Speaker A: No, that's really interesting. And I kind of think, moving on from that conversation on coaching, delegation as a leader can be really challenging. Um, and having that trust in your team, how do you manage delegation across your business?

Speaker B: I think trust is such a key word with that. Trust is incredibly important. And when you lose trust as a leader in the people that you're responsible for, it makes Delegation, so incredibly hard. Um, it's a challenging one, to be honest, Becky. I think, you know, when I joined the Institute, I remember one of the first meetings that I had with my leaders. I'm responsible for six leaders within the institute. Right. One of the first conversations that I had with them. One, um, of them, One of them's here. So attest to that as well.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I said to them, guys, I give you my trust.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah. That's a gift. I'm giving you my trust. You've not earned it. Right. It's not because of anything you've done.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm giving, giving you my trust.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Okay. And I'm going to treat you in a way that I fully trust you.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Please do not breach it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because that's when how we operate together in delegation and things like that becomes a lot more difficult. Um, and, and there are very trustworthy people, thankfully, so that's, that's a good thing. But I think there's another layer to that because you can delegate and you can trust people and empower them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you hand it to them and you walk away. So for example, I've got, um, I've had a leader before whereby they've, you know, very independent.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They've even run their own business before. Um, really and truly, delegation is a bit of a given. You know, they'll. You can give them something, they'll own it. But what, what we found was that when we were going on a journey and we're having one to ones and conversations, we found that as much as they were happy to take things on and be quite independent in how they're operating and taking on that whole delegation piece, they wanted me to have regular check ins with them.

Speaker A: Um, okay.

Speaker B: Because they wanted to maintain accountability.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because as much as they know they can own it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It would help them to have those healthy boundaries. So we, we ended up having weekly one to ones.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Now, I was probably one of the most independent leaders that I had, but they just needed to have that conversation and have those check ins. Right. And, and again, it's, it's just understanding, well, what is the makeup of the individual that you're responsible for and how they operate.

Speaker A: Yeah. That kind of bring us back to the coaching and we talked about the individual motivations. Yeah. No, really interesting, Adrian. Um, and kind of bring it on. I know I mentioned at the very beginning you're a mental health first aider.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So tell us how you bring that into your workplace and into your current role to support your team.

Speaker B: I think this is so important. And to be honest, I became, um, a mental health first aider, uh, because I'd, um, I'd lost my sister a number of years.

Speaker A: Sorry to hear that.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. I lost her. And, um, it took me on a journey of counseling. Right. And just, and then just the whole exploration of myself. Um, and that was back in 2018.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and. And what it caused me to realize within leadership is that I think for, for a good period of time, I was operating a bit like a busy fool and just, you know, doing all manner things, you know, uh, endless things in my diary and overworking. And I got two points of burnout and I was, and I was operating as an unhealthy leader.

Speaker A: Okay. And that's quite common in the commercial environment.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I would say so. I would. I think it's probably quite common in general, to be honest, within leadership. But going on that counseling journey and becoming a mental health first aider, uh, helped me to understand what a healthy me looked like.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And I came to the realization after a number of years of operating like that, that if I'm an unhealthy leader, it actually spills out into the people I'm responsible for. Whereas if I take care of myself and actually if I'm centered, then I can be constant or more constant and stable for the leaders and the individuals that I'm responsible for.

Speaker A: No, that's really interesting. And I think you're always visible, aren't you, to everybody as a leader?

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, and some people, you know, I think it is true, right, to be quite open and transparent. I like that open door policy and all that kind of stuff and kind of being real with the people you're responsible for. But you've also got to have a healthy balance of that. Because in essence, if you show signs of weakness, so to speak, or if you show, you know, if you expose yourself, some people will use that and, um, weaponize it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So I think it's, it's also a case of knowing what is the right and healthy balance in showing the humanity of who you are as a leader for those that you work with, but also being centered enough that you can keep them in the healthiest space possible and for them to maintain a level of confidence in you as a leader as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I've certainly noticed it, um, on the younger leaders coming up, mental health is such a priority. Is that something that you've noticed in your workplace?

Speaker B: Definitely. The younger generations yeah, definitely for younger generations. I think Covid definitely accelerated that in that I think people in general are just less tolerant for if things are not right within the workplace or if they've got that one healthy work life balance or you know, if the workplace is demanding too much but not providing enough support.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They're more willing to walk away. You can see that just from the ten years of uh, you know, of, of people that you see a lot of CVs that I've seen, especially over like the last five years or so, it's more like 12 month, 10 years or less. Because people aren't willing to be a part of organizations that are not going to serve them in the right way.

Speaker A: And kind of bringing it back to your community of payroll professionals, is mental health something that's viewed as important? Is it. Do you see it in all sorts of different workplaces?

Speaker B: I think it's definitely viewed as important, I think. But I'll be honest with you, I think the payroll community in that sense is probably on. Under, uh. Underserved. Yeah, in that sense. And I think I contrast payroll with, with commercial roles.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a stress pressurized role.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And, but there's a, there's a key difference. Right. So again, if they're both, they're both in essence targeted, they both have definitive time scales for how they're to supposed, of course, operating work. Right. Within a commercial function, if they achieve what they needed to achieve, you know, on time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Then they're celebrated.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And people praise them and you know, and all uh, that kind of stuff, congratulate them. Within a payroll setting, if you deliver what you need to deliver on time and it's. Right.

Speaker A: It's a standard, isn't it?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's not so recognized. So then if you think about, if you're in a situation whereby you're not recognized and you're not praised and you're not kind of elevated and that kind of, that kind of thing. But at the same time, if things go wrong, you're criticized then you're targeted and whatnot, that then puts you, potentially can put you in quite a negative space.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because it's very one sided.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think because it's not so much highlighted, it probably does go underserved.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. That's a really interesting insight that I haven't thought about before. Um, it's certainly something I will look at going forward. And for you as a person, mental health is really important. How do you. Obviously you've Got this really busy home life. Tell us how you balance your home and work and keep your mental health in check.

Speaker B: It's really understanding myself and it's really, um, both counseling and, um, completing my level 5 HND and professional coaching taught me the importance of reflection.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And you know, as much as you live in your own body, you're in your own mind. It doesn't necessarily mean you really understand yourself and you understand your triggers and your response and you're thinking, why am I in this headspace? Or why, uh, did I just respond like that? Or, you know, to just stop and take a moment to think. Think about your own behaviors. I think it's. Reflective practices have put me in a space whereby I'm having to. I'm, um, continually evaluating myself even in moments. So, like, the difference between, like, inaction reflection and on action reflection. Right. Even a lot of inaction reflection of I'm in a situation, am I presenting myself in the right way for the outcome that I'm seeking to have, for whatever this engagement is with a person or whatever it may well be, and if it's not going in the right direction to stop and to think, how do I change the trajectory of this and how do I ensure there's a healthy outcome as a leader, uh, for what I'm trying to achieve?

Speaker A: Yeah. I think that reflection piece is so important. It's something that the last couple of years I've really made sure it's important in my life. And it can be something, um, as simple as I find the time driving. Really good reflection piece. Um, and I really think about the day. Also dog walk. I've got a dog and I actually love that to get out. And I really think about. And I can come back into the office and think about things completely differently. Uh, and I think I've learned as well not to make decisions too quickly because sometimes you take that reflection piece and you might think about it completely differently to how he was thinking about it earlier. No, it's really important.

Speaker B: I'm the same. I'm the same. You know, um, dog walks, even. Sometimes I try to be quite, um, strict with my lunchtime. I actually put my lunch time in my dinner.

Speaker A: That's something I need to start doing. That's a habit I need to learn. Um, yeah, but even that reflection piece to get off your laptop or computer at lunchtime, again, is so healthy. And you can look at things completely differently.

Speaker B: Exactly. It's like just getting outside, really. I really try as much as possible as much time to get, Get Outside, get some fresh air.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Process everything that's happened in the morning, prepare my mind for the afternoon for what's to come. Um, and again it just shifts that decision making and gives you that moment in time to. And actually that is the key thing with reflection. It has 100% changed how I make decisions.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.

Speaker B: And it's also stopped me from being so busy.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. I really hear you on that one. And ah, look in the head at kind of your leadership career. What's kind of going to be your focus on leadership over the next five years?

Speaker B: For me it's, it's. So I'm quite keen to continue to expand um, my leadership capability and expertise. Like I mentioned to you before, I completed my level five. Um, in leadership. Sorry, in coaching. Coaching and leadership. I'm seeking to complete my level 7. May as well go down.

Speaker A: That love of learning carries on.

Speaker B: Oh definitely. Even in December. I just completed, um, I just graduated from a non exec director um, course. So that was like a 13 month course.

Speaker A: Well done, Adrian.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. But that's preparing me for board positions and what good governance looks like within

Speaker A: a board setting and what keeps you motivated to work, have the busy home, like have your children and carry on learning. How do you fit it all in and kind of what motivates you to carry on learning?

Speaker B: Um, I don't know how I feel but again, it's just sometimes you have to. I don't believe that there really is a work life balance, to be honest. I think sometimes you just have to dial up things and dial down certain things and I think it's understanding when is the right time to invest in certain areas of your life and when is the time to not. Um, I think what's been key for me is because I've been quite clear on the vision that I want for my life and what I'm inspired to do. It's equipped me to understand what to say yes to and what to say no to.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And therefore because it's provided those kind of boundaries, it's almost helped to protect my time and m. What I invest in.

Speaker A: Um, so you have a laser focus of what's important to you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. I would say so.

Speaker A: Yeah. I kind of relate to that. I think in my life I juggle home, family and work and sometimes one area needs more support than the other. And it's that juggle all the time, isn't it? And getting it right. And sometimes I don't get it right. And sometimes it all falls over.

Speaker B: But even not just with ourselves.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But also with the people that were responsible for as well. And, you know, sometimes. Sometimes it might be worth making decisions that might not.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Align with policy, so to speak. Right. For the sake of what's right. From my staff member now.

Speaker A: I agree with that completely.

Speaker B: What's gonna. Because. Because I remember someone. Someone said this to me. I remember who to reference you. But they said people might not remember what you did, and they might not remember what you said.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But they'll remember how you made them feel.

Speaker A: Yeah. So true.

Speaker B: That's so important. And, you know, at, uh, moments of need, especially, people will remember how you made them feel. And it's important to make the right decisions and use your own kind of, like, common sense and really reading the room and hearing what is this person going through.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that you can make the best decision. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I mentioned my three juggling balls. I'm always juggling. And everybody has those. And everyone has different things going on all the time. Don't. That. It's really trying to understand and, um, to be that empathic leader. Um, really. To get them more out of them. Yeah.

Speaker B: 100%. Because if you invest in people in the right way, you know, they'll be more inclined to give back, you know, and do better and perform better. Um, if you don't make the right decisions. Yeah. That doesn't usually play out well.

Speaker A: Throughout all your leadership experiences, what's the one principle that's really stayed true to you, Adrian?

Speaker B: Um, I'd say this one comes from my wife. Right. And, um, I think it's the whole concept of how you show up at home is how you're going to show up in the rest of the world.

Speaker A: Oh, that's. We. I've never heard that before. That's really interesting.

Speaker B: Yes. It's the whole concept of how do you operate and manage, so to speak, or lead. Or, you know, just. Just general. How do you take care of your home? How do you take care of, you know, whether it's your relationship, your children, you know, just simple things like, um, seeing a piece of rubbish on the floor. And do you walk past it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or do you pick it up and put it in? You know, getting up. Do you. Do you make your bed or do you leave it? You know, the dishes at night. Do you wash them before you go to bed? Or do you know what I mean? And just certain disciplines and behaviors, you know, even communication, you know, how you communicate with your partner or with your children. And things like that, even things like coaching. I've, um. My kids, they're. They're well into tennis. Right. And, um, one thing that I've done with my kids is that every time we finish a training session or they have a lesson because they're. They're a part of an academy at the minute. I say to them, all right, all right, boys, what are your reflections? And they talk to me about they have to give me something that was positive that we're really happy about, and something that they. Not negative, but something that they want to work on for the next session.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, it's just. Just the realest you is you at home.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, that's the you that, you know, there's no facade. There's no, you know, putting on. Putting on a show.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So actually, if you can refine who you are and how you operate in the. In the most sensitive place, in the hidden place where nobody else sees, then actually you'll naturally operate different in the real world with everybody else.

Speaker A: That's a really lovely insight on behaviors. Um, at the Institute of Leadership, we have values that we follow. One of them to be a successful leader is authenticity. And that's kind of a great demonstration of. Actually, we want authentic leaders. We want to know the real you. Because you buy into that, don't you?

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, yeah. You can only put on a show for so long. What if it's really you that's showing up, that will be maintained.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, really interesting. And, Adrian, in your career, you've undoubtedly dealt with many different stakeholders. How do you manage upwards, sideways and downwards all at the same time?

Speaker B: Well, it's a great balancing act, I think. And the great juggle, you know, I think that they're all distinctly quite different or equally important, I would say. So I think I've spoken quite a bit already about understanding your people, you know, and. And you know, how to. To manage those that you're responsible for. So I lean more into those you're responsible with in regards to your peer group and, you know, those you're responsible to in regards to who you, you know, you're reporting to. So I think managing up, as we normally define it. Right. Is incredibly important as a leader, because. And this is why. And I've seen this throughout my career as well, and I've seen this happen to me in that, uh, you can be focused on being the most effective leader. Uh, you know, you want great performance, all that kind of stuff. Right. And you can have a great team that you create In a cultivated. But that doesn't necessarily mean that your leader sees that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Now your leader, whether it's a CEO, director, you know, whatever level it may well be, they will only receive what you communicate to them and what others may be communicating about you.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So I found that it's. I know what I've also seen is that some leaders are very good at, let's say, talking up a good game, but not actually delivering very well. Um, I try to be the opposite where I want to focus on delivering, but where I'd say I've fallen down in times past. And what I had to learn from was that I had to also learn how to attain, articulate what I'm doing and the impact that, um, I'm having so that the one who, whoever I'm responsible to, they can have a good level of confidence that I'm leading in an effective way.

Speaker A: That's really interesting. I've come from the events industry and we used to have a phrase under promise and over deliver, which is something I've always taken through in my career, because there's nothing worse than going in, promising the world and then falling down 100%.

Speaker B: 100%. But then you've also got your peer group as well. So your peer group is, is quite important because. And you've got to manage your peer group.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: At the same time as well, because your peer group will support the consensus of whatever it is that you're trying to achieve or whatever it is that you're trying, whether you're trying to push for transformation or what, you know, healthier cultural performance or whatever it may well be. So you've got to be collaborative.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But what that means is that you've got to understand your peer group and you've also got to subsequently tap into their motivations because as leaders, many times we can be quite siloed in our thinking and, um, be more so concerned with whatever our operation is. So how you breach that is that, uh, as a leader, if I understand what you're invested in and what's important to you, and I can make clear as to whatever initiative I want to push forward or however I want to work with you, and it also feeds into what you're trying to achieve, it then fosters that collaboration and enables that consensus whereby in essence, your peers are on board for whatever direction that you want to go. So it's important that you manage each of the layers and, uh, manage them in an effective way. Not to be, um, not for control, more so for influencing positive changes.

Speaker A: And that's really interesting. You talk about all those different people you're managing. Do you think you have to be liked as a leader for it to be successful?

Speaker B: Um, no. I did pursue being liked. Um, it was very frustrating because here's the thing, right? We've got different personality types, right? And, you know, you could try and be the nicest, the most likable person in the world. The fact is, everyone will not like you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, even if you were perfect, somebody would not like you because you're perfect. Right. So it's a, uh, it's a pointless task. What you want to do is you want to be collaborative, you want to be, you know, positive, you want to be driving the right change and the right work in practice. For those that like you and are on board, great. You know, let's take over the world. For those that are not, let's just find that common ground as to how we can work together so that we can have a healthy practice as an organization.

Speaker A: Adrian, before we head on to our Quick Fire round, I hear there's lots of exciting events coming up at the cipp. Tell us all about them.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So our next up and coming event on the 9th of July is payroll live. It's for really people who are, uh, um, earlier on in their payroll career or curious about payroll. It's a free event that we've got, uh, at the Etihad. And as a United fan, um, my team took great pleasure and joy in telling me it's at the Etihad. But no, it's a great event. Really good content and support for the payroll community. And then later on in the year, first and second of October, we've got our main event, the annual conference at the Celtic Manor, which is really for those who are, um, generally more tenured, more seasoned and leaders, you know, within the payroll community coming together, incredibly rich content. It's going to be the biggest, um, annual conference yet. So we're um, massively looking forward to that. Such a beautiful venue as well. It's a magical experience. Experience. Especially the awards, uh, the excellence awards as well, where we can recognize, you know, organizations and key figures within the payroll community. And again, that. Thank you. That I was talking about earlier, uh, really celebrating them and celebrating their contribution to payroll and the impact that it has.

Speaker A: That sounds a really great events coming up. I'll put the details of the events on the podcast bio. Where else agent can they hear about the events?

Speaker B: Yeah, they can, um, hear about more on our website and also our social Media platforms such as LinkedIn and Facebook.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Thanks, Adrian. So, Adrian, it's been really great to hear all that insight, um, from you in depth, and I want to move this forward to a rapid fire round to have a bit of fun, if that's okay with you.

Speaker B: That's fine.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Let's go for it.

Speaker A: Okay, so we've got five questions. Okay. Starting with number one. What's the best piece of leadership advice you've ever received?

Speaker B: Yeah. It's that you've got two ears and one mouth, so listen twice as much as you speak.

Speaker A: And a book or podcast that's a major influence on your leadership style.

Speaker B: I want to say two. I want to say, um, leadership by John C. Maxwell.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Really, really great book. Um, and also, um, coaching for Performance by Sir John Whitmore.

Speaker A: Okay. And we'll add those into the, uh, podcast bio for people to access. If you would sum up your leadership approach in just three words, what would they be?

Speaker B: It'd be the three Cs. So it would be coaching, culture and communication, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah. That kind of summarized what we've talked about today, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think. Yeah, it's quick fire, so I won't delve deeper into it, but it's very important.

Speaker A: Okay. And your morning must haves, coffee, workout or meditation.

Speaker B: Um, I'd say reflection in that in. Or just kind of processing what my day looks like.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Right. And just really mapping out how I need to approach, whether it's meetings or whatever, you know, uh, admin or whatever it is that I need to do. What is that going to look like for the day? And really preparing my mind for it.

Speaker A: Okay. And finally, if you could have dinner with any leader, past or present, who would it be?

Speaker B: Again, because of my faith. But, uh, it'll be Jesus. And the reason why is because he was able to lead different groups of people. He was able to tailor his leadership to really, in essence, bring the best out of them. And he was able to transform people to really impact the whole world, which is incredible. It's transformational leadership at his best.

Speaker A: Thank you, Adrian. And we're kind of moving on to the close of today's podcast. And you've really inspired me to certainly think about the payroll sector and kind of what they're experiencing, how important coaching is, um, and the power of reflection. And I'm going to make sure I put that time my diary for my lunch break. So before we wrap up today, we have a question that we share with every guest. If you could Give one piece of a career advice or leadership advice, your younger self, what would it be?

Speaker B: It would be shut up and listen.

Speaker A: Very good.

Speaker B: Literally, I think, you know, we now. And, um. And I know, um, I can ramble a little bit sometimes. Right. So I'm guilty that I hold my hands. All right. But I do try to listen again. When I went on that, um, actually, it wasn't the. Just the coaching qualification. A number of years ago, I went on a managing director mentorship program, and it was for. Basically in the organization that I was in, it was for a small pool of, um leaders that they saw a lot of potential potentially to. To lead their own business unit as mds. And we. It. It took us into the intricacies of different forms of listening.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And active listening, which in, you know, when you look at active listening, you think, oh, yeah, I'm an active listener. Yeah. I listen to people. Yeah. Actually, when you think about it and when you're having a. When you're having conversations with people and you fall into the trap of either switching off and your mind somewhere else, or you've already got a response that you want to say and you're just waiting for them to finish, you're not really actively listening. And I think just that. Just the actual practice of let me just stop and listen.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because if I listen effectively.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'll then be able to approach whatever the situation is in the best way. And I'll ask the key questions.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know from my team. I've learned that from my, um, team. And sometimes it's the quieter people in the team that we have team meetings and everyone's talking. Everyone's very excitable. And I have one member of the team who's quite quiet and reflective, and she won't say much to the team. And then towards the end, she says that killer question that actually summarizes what everybody else has been trying to get at. So it just showcases the importance of that. Active listening.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think even with that, that's such an important point. As a leader, uh, you'll always have people in your, you know, your group, uh, whether it's a group of leaders or just. Just general staff, where you have those who have a louder voice than others.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And as a leader, actually, uh, taking the time to facilitate everyone to have a voice.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Especially those who are not generally heard because like you said, many times they have nuggets because they've had the time to process and reflect and think and just give a different perspective, which can be all the more impactful. And last thing I want to say as well, because I didn't say it earlier. Probably my favorite word in the English vocabulary is the word why.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I think that is such an important question. Whenever we're operating in business, especially, and whenever we're. We're leading whatever decisions we're making to ask the question why. Right. And to challenge with why now it doesn't. That can be shaped in a different way. You could use, you know, synonymous words or whatever it may well be. But when you delve deeper enough into the why, you'll probably find at times it's a standard that was established from 1962 or whatever. Right. Or it was a good idea because of a specific context for what was going on. And we've just maintained it. We've always done that way, or whatever it is. Why enables you to really get under the skin of are we making the right decisions and are we operating in the right way? Uh, especially when it comes to the decisions we're making for people. And if that why is strong enough, that should give you the confidence that you're doing the right thing as a leader.

Speaker A: Yeah. And sometimes that why can open some difficult questions.

Speaker B: 100%. Um, yeah.

Speaker A: And it's having the courage to have those conversations to make the real difference and change.

Speaker B: It's a great myth buster.

Speaker A: Yeah. Brilliant. Well, you've really opened my eyes to, as I said, coaching now. Why? I'm going to be asking why to everything now. Um, the mental health insight was really important, and I think is so valid to the next generation of leaders coming through. And it's something I think every organization, um, needs to consider and the importance of coaching. Don't do coach. Um, and it's that investment into teams, employees that makes a real difference. So thank you, Adrian, for a really informative, really enjoyable podcast session.

Speaker B: My pleasure. It's been great.