Who's Running Your Company: Achieving High Employee Engagement Part 2

Rania: And we're back, everybody, for part two on employee engagement. Who's running your company? Let's jump back into those questions. I spoke with a senior HR consultant who says she hears from her clients all the time. We have disengaged check that employees. And she says the conversation inevitably rolls out like this. She says to them, she asks, what were they like when they started the job? And the client says, well, they were great, they were keen, they were energetic, they had ideas. And she says, well, what got them from, you know, point A to point B? Uh, like, what did you do to these employees that like, took the, took the oomph out of them? Right? So this question of how do we, how do eager, motivated, capable, resourceful people end up checked out, burnt out, you know, not engaged? It's interesting. So I wanted to share, um, this, uh, JDR model, the job demands resource model of engagement. And the idea here is that the more resourced up an employee is, the more engaged they are. And if they have the resources to unblock themselves, uh, the support at their fingertips, it doesn't matter then how much stress or how busy are the time commitments with their big to do list because they know their resource up to tackle it. Right? And we see people feel burnout and disengaged and lean out when they just feel like it's not doable, they're not resourced up. Like, do you have any thoughts on this? Do you think this is true?

Randall Craig: Yeah, I think the model is a good one. I really do. And so the question is, is. Is still what you had asked. How is it that they go from, from keen new hires to yuck, right? Or somewhat disengaged or very disengaged. And the answer is, is, is very simple. HR professionals have always focused on what are the systemic processes and, uh, um, systems and processes that we could put in place. Right. And they've examined, you know, the recruiting process, the job descriptions, even the onboarding. Here's the framework for how we as an organization do onboarding. And then the people are placed into, uh, uh, into their job. And now the manager. Right, but how much training, uh, and I've seen so little of this. How much training is there, for example, for managers on how to properly integrate, uh, new employees into the team? The best, of course, have got great experience doing so. Right. But how often do managers actually integrate new members into their team? It doesn't happen so often because we like to think we keep people. Right. Uh, so, so that's one part. The whole question of what kind of management training have your managers had. Right. Are they aware of different ways, um, at one of our, um, um, with one of our clients, we spent a big chunk of time talking about what a coaching leader does as opposed to a more directive leadership, uh, style, management style. Right. And it was a big eye opener for a lot of them because they hadn't actually thought of using a coaching style, um, you know, in, in, in their management practices. Right. And so if you, if you don't know what you don't know, you're going to do what you're comfortable doing. Right. So eventually the people get hammered down the question of, okay, you know what, uh, they don't have the resources along the way. Absolutely. The demands, like all the JDR framework is exactly true. But I, I come back to say let's make sure that we actually resource up. Okay. The managers to be equipped to doing some of these more today kind of management. I think there's another angle here too, which I think is fascinating. You know, the way you manage, say somebody who's in their 50s or, or even in their 60s is very different than you manage somebody in their late 30s, early 40s, which is very different than somebody who's in their 20s. Right. It's very, very different. And the intergenerational dynamics a little bit different as well. Right. I, I, I think that, that sometimes we're not as sensitive. There's not a question of saying we need to understand the differences between the generations. I think it's a question of saying as a leader and as a people manager, we need to build a diversity of management style so we're able to give each of our team members what they need so that they're fully engaged. Right. And some of it is, yeah, the job and setting the expectations and some of it is making sure the work is fulfilling to make sure they're not frustrated. Right. Um, uh, to make sure they've got the right resources. Right. Um, but here, in a certain sense, aren't we, you know, starting to use now the language of servant leadership as opposed to almost authoritarian leadership, using the language of a coaching leader as opposed to a directive leader. Right. I, I think to, for us to say these terms and for us as leaders to say how do we put them into practice? You know, uh, there's a gap there which is kind of where training and retreats and all that kind of stuff fill. Right. And I think that philosophically, you know, no one likes to say I'm an authoritarian and I am good. Right. Um, but I think sometimes People, um, fall back on what they know and what might have worked for them in the past. And uh, past performance is not a guarantor of future success. Right. It's got to be this dynamism.

Rania: Um, I'll go back to my studies that I find, but I really try not to find obscure ones. I try to find many that sort of confirm the same thing. So all studies show that our time outside of work, when we are not working at our desks, impacts our ability to engage at work just as much as that time in the office. Okay. And it interestingly really impacts it equally. We have a session on work life balance and how, you know, your enjoyment in one feeds and fuels the other. Right. So this is astounding. If it does, in fact, uh, impact it equally, this means that if we as organizational leaders, as managers can make the personal lives of our employees better there, they will perform better at work. So it's interesting because there's so many times at work when you can't change circumstances at work. You can't change, you know, the boss, the colleague, the client. There are yucky situations at work. But this means we can really turn our attention towards their personal life and, you know, our effort points in that area. So I spoke with a colleague recently. She said that her, she works for a very successful global organization. They have hundreds of employees. She says they have two retreats annually, with one is their corporate retreat, business strategy, you know, finance, all that kind of stuff. And there's another retreat where the boss pays for a vacation for the employee and their couple and then all of them go to a resort or wherever together and it's just fun time, social time, the networking time, that team building time. But it really, if it improves their marriage and improves their relaxation and all the rest. He ends up with better employees. He's like crack code.

Randall Craig: Yeah, that's, it's a very, very interesting. I, I love the idea, uh, okay, I, I, I love the idea for its creativity, but I don't love the idea for other reasons. Okay. And, and my, my belief is that if you can find ways for people to work to. Well, actually, let me take a step back. I think that it's very tough for you as a manager to say, I'm going to reach into somebody's personal life and I'm going to do stuff there. I think it's very tough because some people might say, listen, none of your business, okay? Uh, none of your business. You know, maybe, maybe somebody, for example, is, is, is, is got a different type of lifestyle that is there that they don't want anybody to know about. Uh, okay, maybe somebody's um, got particular challenges that, that they're embarrassed about. Right. Uh, or, or that are very overwhelming that they do not want and they feel that if the work knew about it, it would be, you know, it'd be challenging. Right. So, so if, if those things are all addressed then, then yeah, you can offer things up. Right. The idea of, of uh, ah, come to an all expense paid retreat, you and your significant other and we're going to have some fun and there's team building and there's, or just time together where we're building that relationship. That part I absolutely love. Right. Um, but you just have to be careful about it. I, I think that uh, um, too often we forget that people are 100% people and they do have their personal lives and pressures and that, huh. You know, if a marriage is not going well, it leaks into the work. If a kid is sick or in the hospital, it has an impact on your day job. And likewise if you have a terrible day and you go home and you speak to your significant other, your family, your friends, you're complaining about what an awful day you had. You know, once again you're taking work, uh, work home. I, I think it's uh, I, I think it's a very, very interesting dynamic. Um, Rania, can I, can I share a, A, a brain trust story about what both of our families did, uh, two weeks ago?

Rania: Share whatever you'd like to share, Randall.

Randall Craig: So, so you know, Ronya's, uh, uh, Ronnie is in, involved with her family as I am with mine. And one of the things we, one with one of the things we said, one of the things we decided to do is we decided as, as an organization, let's send Rania and her family away for a week, uh, at a resort, okay. At our expense and just to spend time with her family. And you know what? Um, I didn't hear all the details but uh, other than, you know, thank you, thank you. But, but you know what? Um, a uh, Happy Rania was uh, was part of the result of that. Right. And so the idea of saying, saying oh my God, this is something completely different. I'm able to give one of my um, key people something that perhaps she might not have done by herself is something because it was novel or unique, made a real difference because it was ah, the specific thing for a specific key employee. Right. As opposed to some systemic thing saying everybody gets one week that we're going to send you to Miscellaneous places, because that's our program. Right. And, and I think that when we start to think of our key people, particularly as, as individuals, uh, okay. It can make a very significant difference in terms of how you recognize, how you reward, how you, how you make them more engaged, if you will not. Because making them more engaged is the number one goal. But, uh, but, uh, um, it wires everybody together in a closer way. And I think that there's, there's something that's very, very positive about that.

Rania: Randall, I'm happy you shared this example for lots of reasons, including that you, uh. The proof is in the pudding, Randall. You live by what you, what you. What you preach, hearing, trying to engage your key employees. But I want to tie what you said to it. And yeah, I want to share. To answer Kristen's point here, she wrote lol for a, uh, not for profit, spending members money. So actually speak to this. Okay. And I want to refer you. I don't know if you were there. We did another Q and A session about non for profits, non juice revenue money, how nonprofits are run. We were very, very candid and I really recommend you listen to that one. But if you want to run, uh, a nonprofit association like a business, with the metrics which include employee retention, employee engagement, the cost of onboarding people, the cost of disengaged employees, and you know, of the levers you have to engage employees. Yes. Randall has a list of 100 of them. He can share with you if you ask nicely, as Randall likes to say. Um, but. But, uh, in a small organization, there are much less levers to pull. So here Randall and I were small. We're three, four people on the team here. And you know, if I want a promotion, I'm not going to get Randall's job. Right. There's only so far for me to go. So non for profit. Usually it's quite small. The team and what levers do you. And I think that when ambitious, smart, capable people who have a career goal for themselves, they do want to move up. And if they can't move up, they need to put the energy somewhere. So Randall and I work in this business because we know that giving people, uh, education, training skills, upskilling your team, giving them leadership training, really scratches that itch a lot. And so for small teams where maybe there. I think there is a very big argument to what levers do you have to make your members engaged and satisfied and well, and offering that training budget and that budget for personal stuff. I think there's a very big business case for that thoughts, Randall?

Randall Craig: Um, yeah, I, I totally agree. And, and by the way, you know, both Ronnie and I over the, you know, many, many years have served a whole bunch of not for profits. Most of them are. Except almost all of them are exceptionally careful with every nickel that's spent for good reason. It's not their money. Right. Um, but on the other hand, um, you know, that they've, they've all found ways of motivating their team to do. Because there's, like I said earlier, there's no hiding in the reeds. Everybody's. Everybody's got to do. Everyone's got a job to do, right? And if somebody's not doing the job, everything sort of slow. Slows down. Um, here's the thing, okay? Um. Um, if, for example, uh, you're having a conference in another city and you're bringing everybody there as well, um, you know, I'm, I'm, uh. Uh, I've been inducted in the hall of Fame first for speakers, the Canadian Speaking hall of Fame. And, and you know, I'm engaged to. To go to a conference and to. To do the opening keynote or, or some. Some other thing. Right. Um, but you've got all your team there, okay? How much more would it cost, okay? Since people are going to probably be there a day earlier, a stay day later to run an employee development session with somebody who's. You've already paid to get them there, right? They've already done the research on the organization. It does not cost that much more. And to stay, uh, uh, you know, an extra day for professional development in an area where they already are. There is, is. Is one way of, of doing things that don't cost a total arm and a leg. Right? Um. I. I think, um. You know, sometimes, sometimes you have to find other ways. You know, most people for. Not for profit. And more specifically for charitable organizations, there's a huge alignment to the mission itself. Right. Um. Sometimes, for example, the, uh, the way to, uh, motivate people in, in an association, a professional association, is sometimes to see if you could arrange for a second or a swap with one of your members, somebody on their team who wants to work in the association for three months and, and your person works at the, at the member's office for, for three months. Right. You know, like, like there's, there's other ways to provide experiences that build engagement that don't necessarily need to cost anything. Uh. Right. And I'm happy to share more if interested. So, um, sir, I'll just say one other thing. Interestingly there's been a bunch of, uh, elected school trustees or school board management teams who've gone on, um, wonderful investigative missions to Italy, to Eastern Europe, on discovery, on stuff that just seemed like an incredible, um, abrogation of their duty. Uh, and. And it's. It's. It's very sad, it's very dispiriting, uh, to everybody when you see people going on these, uh, wonderful, um. Um, I don't know, trips, if you will. Um, but what we're talking about here is, is employee engagement and sending them away to. To, uh, eat fancy meals and. And drink expensive wine is. Is, you know, there's. That's just. So it's not the way to do it. Right. It's not the way to do it.

Rania: Randall, let's talk more. What can an organization do to allow their employees the space to recommit and move that flywheel of engagement and their relationship with the organization? Like you've. You've, uh. Not in this session. We've talked before about stay interviews, team meetings. We had a client, Randall. We did a board development, uh, board education day a couple weeks back or a month back. And the executive director said she meets with her team every Thursday, three weeks, not even monthly, every three weeks to do a temperature check on the culture. What happened, what didn't happen, what would feel better moving forward? I was. I'd never heard of anything so frequent, ever. I was really pleased with that. Uh, meanwhile, I spoke with another organizational leader. They have about, uh, I don't know, 15 people on their team. And they said. When. He said, whenever I organize a team meeting, it becomes a, you know, a gripe fest, a bunch of negativity which. Which, you know, pollutes the. The waters. So obviously someone's doing something right, something wrong. But any thoughts on this? Like, how do you have that open conversation? Is it one on one? Is it with team?

Randall Craig: I. I think, listen, um, everyone's an individual, right? And I think the one on one meetings with. With your individual teammates to sort of surface any of these issues. Is it a. A quick check in, uh, every two weeks or three weeks or every month, uh, one on one, saying, you know, how. How's everything going? Um, is there anything that's blocking you from. From achieving your. Your particular goals? Is there any feedback that you might be able to give me? Can I. Do you have any suggestions into how I could support you better? Is there anything that you've seen in the team that you think, uh, um, I should be, uh, aware of or that maybe, um, you know, I could take into account as I'm working with, with uh, the team as a whole, etc. So I think that that's one way to start the conversation. If the conversation hasn't been. It is so hard, okay. Believe me, I know it. Okay. It is so hard to get those meetings on the calendar. Okay. It is painful, um, I'm m talking about as me, it's so painful, uh, to actually put them on the calendar. But once they're on the calendar and those conversations take place, oh my God. Uh, I feel that as a manager I learned so much. So I think that one on one is a place to stay. Number two, I think the question is to define, um, what actually happens in the team meetings. Right. What's the agenda? Right? What, what are you reinforcing in terms of the standards? I think as a manager, what are you modeling in terms of your own behavior, your own words? I think that that goes, uh, a far away. Okay. Is there, you know, are you a sarcastic manager using sarcasm all a lot? That's not very helpful, right? Is that what you want your, your, your team to be doing? You know, it's, it's not good, right. So I think that the team sort of level in terms of the regular team meetings and making sure the agenda includes things that are reinforced. Um, the whole world of management consulting has changed dramatically over the decades. You know, at one point it was, gee, if we have a problem, we can't, we got to bring in the expert. We're going to bring the management consultant in and everybody's going to focus, focus, focus on the problem and they're going to come up with, here's the solution, here you go, here's the solution. And magically everything goes well. Then the management consultant leaves or they try and sell you another engagement. One way or the other, they leave. Right. And, and, and what a surprise. That one little point, problem solved. But everything else, all of a sudden there's all these other problems that magically come up. Why? Because everyone's attention's focused on the problem. Okay. That's the old style of management consulting. Um, uh, the new sort of paradigm is flips this around completely and ask the question, what are we doing better than anyone else? What do we do? Exceptionally well. Because if we are able to get everybody to recognize all the good that's actually happening, then we can squeeze out the bad if we're doing more of the good. So when we talk about what's the agenda for that team meeting, is there a reason why we can't have some of that that's actually happening. Right. And as soon as people start to feel proud of the kind of things that everyone's accomplishing, okay. Um, that's kind of where that team dynamic starts to fit in the positive team dynamic. I'll give you one other thing as well. Um, you know, not everybody is a leader. There's always the laggards, right. And then there's that big, big soft middle. Right. So if we're focusing things. I've spoken about this before in other, uh, segments, uh, like this. If we focus always on the laggards, the people who are disengaged, in other words, okay, what's going to happen to the other groups? Right? They're going to be ignored. Right. If we want to implement some sort of change, if we focus on the people that are more willing to take that chance to actually do that change. Right. Guess what, you're gonna have some interesting case studies. Oh, they could do it. I could do it. Right. And that big middle group, they're going to come along the way. They're going to say, well, it doesn't seem so hard. It's looking pretty good. Okay. And then all of a sudden, the laggards, the, the disengaged, uh, some of them are going to say, oh, I better hurry up and sort of do what everyone else is doing because I seem to be the only person standing on this island. I got to get off the island. And the ones who are sort of, I don't care, uh, whatever, etcetera, uh, they'll be even more obvious by their, uh, by their disengagement, let's just say, and use a manager. Need to do something about that. Right. So I, I think that all those kind of go to answer the question.

Rania: Christine, how's it going over there managing your not for profit?

Randall Craig: I run the national professional society for medical lab scientists in Canada. Um, so I was laughing when you

Rania: said you could do job swap. I'm like, no, you can't work at a regulated job.

Randall Craig: Just, you know, hey, can I join your bench for the next couple of weeks? I'd like to learn a little bit more about micro. So, yeah, it's heavily regulated industry. Yeah. We do some work for regulators and everything. Uh, we're just finishing an assignment for one. Right. Right now. I totally get it sometimes, though, in sort of staff kind of functions, um, you know, that are, uh, you know, like something in communications, for example, um, that's, uh, sometimes you can sort of do that kind of swap. Yeah. So it Might not be outside, you know, but, but it becomes a way for people to suddenly get excited about doing the work. Etc. Um, uh, the, the other thing that we didn't actually talk about, but I, but I should have, uh, said that, you know, the whole question of, um, people who become disengaged, sometimes it's because they figure there's nowhere else to go. And, and, and the whole question of saying, well, the career path for some people it's up and up and up and then eventually out. But for other people, a career path is, is, is, uh, how do we become a deeper and deeper expert? In my particular field of expertise, financial analysts, for example, Right. You know, stocks. Right. Uh, scientists, for example, uh, you know, all these different things. Their career paths get deeper and deeper. And so for, for people who are in business. Okay. Uh, which I include not for profits. Um, the question of, uh, what is the career path? Um, I think if organizations were a little bit clearer with their team about what the paths might be, that is, um, our goal is to have people spend time in each of the various areas of our business as a way to grow and enrich their careers and everything. Every time they switch to something else, um, they bring the knowledge from another area into whatever that new place is. Um, to, to say for each person, okay, what's their next job here going to be and what's the next job after that going to be? Right. And, and so on and so forth. Right. Because then you can then have the conversations with each individual saying, let's just talk about really the next two to four years here and what you're interested in and they'll tell you. And then it's an easy conversation. Say, I was kind of thinking about such and such. You know, do you think this is something that we might play with? Right. And, and it's suddenly a very different. I'll say, oh, I matter. Oh, uh, you know, the, you know, the boss is thinking of me not just in terms of my output per, you know, per day, etc, but in terms of the longer, these, this kind of longer story arc to, uh, people's job, I. E. What's going on with their career is something that's very powerful. Uh, because no one likes to feel that the work they're doing doesn't matter. Right. And, and this is a way to say actually what you're doing does matter.

Rania: Should I ask a last question before I give you the final word, Randall?

Randall Craig: Sure, why not? Okay.

Rania: This is not a word that I love, but it comes up all the time with Clients surveys, okay? This is a tool that is overused, underused. Okay? It's a tool we have. It's a tool that is used to talk to me.

Randall Craig: So back in my days when I was doing market research at KPMG years and years and years ago, uh, one of my mentors said to me, um, never ask a question on a survey unless the answer will cause you to do something differently. And so the challenge with uh, employee surveys, employee engagement surveys is I don't think that the survey creators have fully um, uh, explained that to the leaders who supposedly are going to use the survey results. So for example, if the engagement surveys say abc, well what the heck do those are we going to do based on the specific answers, right? And if you're not willing to do anything, don't bother with the surveys because all you're doing is you're telling your staff, you know what we're going to ask you and just not pay attention to whatever comes out of your mouth, which is not very helpful. Right? It's a terrible, terrible way to, to, to uh, uh, treat somebody. Right. Um, so what I would say is, is it's better to know than not know. For the largest organization, surveys are really important. Not just downwards but 360 degree surveys where you know, people are evaluating peers and managers. Right. Not just how they feel about their general engagement level. Right. Because that way it's news you can use. Um, so long as people are, uh, there's the management will to do something about it, right? It, does it impact their bonuses? Okay. Is it part of the scorecard, if you will, or the OKRs, the objectives? For example, is it something that they're willing to publish to everybody in the organization and then maybe put some programs or, or processes around doing better? Is it something they're willing to commit to doing, um, you know, every year, every second year to, to, to see whether there's change. Excuse me. So I, I, I, I, I love them when they're actually used for smaller organizations, it's a lot tougher to do surveys. They're not very good because it, it's, it's hard. Surveys are very surfacy. So when you got lots of people, you uh, can you know, quantitatively, you know, get some insights for smaller groups. Um, this is, this is where uh, facilitated conversation comes in, right? This is where um, uh, whether it's in pairs or that it's the entire team with an external person, um, it becomes an awful lot easier to get insights uh, because people will open up to some of the outside Usually. And our uh, experience is being people say the darndest things. And it's amazing because once you start to see several themes and you go back to the leader and say, you know something, I think that uh, maybe we should change, uh, the agenda of that team meeting to be this and this and this. Because I think that'll probably tick off a couple of your boxes. Right. And so, um, surveys are not the only way to go. Right. Uh, I think that the interview approach coupled with uh, with some strategic training, uh, or some segments within a team retreat. Um, I have to tell you one other, one other way. A, ah, number of years ago there was a problem with some senior leaders. They didn't, they. And they thought the problem was with all the employees. And uh, you know, we didn't uh, enough interviews to determine that it was very clearly not the employees and it was very hard. How do you tell the boss, you know, as. Certainly as an outsider. Um, but the person who's a head of HR said, you know, listen, we, we have to do such and such. We got to solve the problem. And I can't just have the conversation because of a whole bunch of reasons. So I said why don't we do this? Why don't we. And um, and I was engaged to deliver a keynote at the, at the conference. Why don't I do a keynote on such and such a topic and then afterwards we'll get the uh, CEO to talk about it as well, very briefly in their closing remarks. Because that way the training target wasn't just everyone in the audience. It really was the leadership team and they had to walk the talk because that's kind of what was going on. And so uh, made a difference, but that was a backdoor way of, of sort of solving the problem. It's pretty funny. So a good question.

Rania: Uh, is there anything like, important that we didn't like, touch on today on our journey?

Randall Craig: Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll just talk about, I'll just talk about, uh, we, we spend a lot of time talking about the, the, the, the staff manager dynamic, the, the team dynamic and everything. We, and we touched on sort of the, the overall corporate, you, um, um, um, sort of thing, if you will. But what I wanted to say is that sometimes what ends up happening is, is that the, the systems processes stuff that you've got in place for good reasons can be very demotivating. Because on one hand we want to motivate our staff to actually not in a fake kind of way, but want to motivate our team to actually move up to that next level too, to become more engaged by intrinsically helping, et cetera. So here we are, we're pulling, yet we're pushing by having inane policies that demotivate our staff and that are not authentic. And I'll give you a couple examples. Um, um, if you've got a newsletter or some generic communication. And by the way, this isn't just for employees. This is also for members in membership organizations. Okay? Is it a fake or an authentic communication? Is everything corporate plastic speak, or is it real? Right? And so often there's this corporate ah, speak that, that is not personal, okay? It's not connective. It doesn't say, hey, this is important. It doesn't speak to any human emotion in, in any kind of way. It's just all plastic corporate mumbo jumbo. It's not active sense, it's passive. Right? And, and I think that the more authentic the communications that come from the top, uh, the, the better. So for example, if there's an all hands meeting or if there's an annual general meeting and the CEO or president, executive director comes up, okay, Are they reading from a, uh, from a prepared script that is, that is so wordsmith that people think, gee, that's not so and so, gee, I wonder who prepared that for them. You know, gee, I wonder. Like that just turns people off. So I think that's one. I'll give you another example. Um, um, expense reimbursement policies, okay? It's the job of the finance team to take a look at expenses and it's the job of the manager to approve them. And it's the job of the finance team to double check and make sure things are put in the right accounts and everything like that. But some people follow these things so stringently that even when things are followed up by the managers, uh, that there's just so much additional work and back and forth. It's very demotivating. Hey, listen, I use my own credit card to buy that particular thing because my manager said they needed it, they signed off on it. I wanted my money back. And meanwhile, it takes time and time and time and time. It's like, hey, employee, uh, we don't trust you. Right? This is not particularly motivating. Right? So, same thing with respect to promotions, okay? For larger organizations, sometimes there's criteria. I, uh, remember, I remember very early in my career, this is when I was working at kpmg. Um, uh, after a year of being a manager, my boss, uh, who's the national partner in charge of marketing said, this person needs to be promoted to senior manager. They're doing senior manager work. And so I was put up for senior manager. And big consulting firms, they happen at one time a year. That's it. Okay. And then I got a note from the, uh, from an HR person saying, you know what our policy is? People can only be promoted every two years or every three years, not after one year. And so it was very embarrassing for my manager, okay, the partner in charge. Okay. But it was also terribly demotivating for me if I was such a superstar that they felt that they needed to promote me because I was doing that senior management's job. Uh, why in the world would they have a policy that said, no, no, no, no. So sorry, you got to put another two years in before you're, before we promote you. You wonder why people are disengaged. Look at the policies, look at how you're implementing the policies and say, are these things things that build trust with your team, or is it things that reinforce the fact that, no, no, you just can't be trusted? No, no, we don't believe you. No, no, you're not valuable here. So, so I, I, I think that, that, that that's the, the, the answer to, to, to my question, you know, how do we make sure that we have engaged people? A, we've got to do the job of management and leadership. We've got to make sure people are tooled up. I'm talking about the managers. We've got to invest in the management training. We've got to also make sure that we remove, once we're able to do, will be aligned and things will, things will happen. Great.

Rania: I want to thank you, Randall, for the conversation. Thank you to everyone who joined and listened in Live. If any of the issues we talked about resonate with you, if you're considering a change and want our perspective. If you're planning leadership retreat, curious about coaching with Randall how to battle on your team, please reach out. We'd be happy to, uh, learn about your organization, share resources, and if you want invites to these live Q A sessions, straight to your inbox to email us@podcast randallpay.com and we look forward to connecting with you on LinkedIn and seeing you next time.