Ep.96 Rhys Calcott - “The career is in your hands; every choice you make has an impact.”

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Leaders with Ambition podcast series. The podcast that delves deep into the careers of some of the most successful leaders working in professional services firms across the uk, US and internationally. We aim to discover the secrets behind their success, the challenges they have overcome, and to find out what traits make a successful leader. Hello and welcome to the latest in the Leaders with Ambition podcast series. And today I'm absolutely delighted to welcome my guest, Rhys Calcott Rees is Associate Director for BD and Marketing Amir at Scaddens. And it's going to be such an interesting podcast today which sees Rhys developing a career in business development and marketing in law after a real chance exposure to a law firm in Australia which Riis will talk about. But one of the things I love about Rhys is this real intentional career moves m that he's made. So he's really focused on how he wanted to develop his career. He sought out opportunities early on about building relationships, but also to focus on his personal and professional development, which is something that we'll touch on um, throughout the podcast today. He's a great believer in the power of networking and again, I think that's one of Reece's skills skills. And we'll talk about really when one should start networking in one's career and how impactful that can be in one's journey. He'll talk about his resilience and how important he thinks it is to have resilience in oneself, particularly in a marketing and BD career in law firms because these are real high pressure environments and also how that self reflection piece is so something that he's brought in and he does encourage his teams to live and breathe. Rhys is also incredibly passionate about paying it forward and he's done this throughout his career and I think most recently there's been this really amazing apprenticeship scheme at Scadden which I know that Rhys has been instrumental in helping to set up and being involved in. So I'm really looking forward to us talking about that and ah, we will touch on the challenges facing Rhys and his peers in marketing and beauty in law firms as well. Well, and also end on some words of wisdom. So looking forward to today and without further ado, I'm going to hand over to Rhys to bring his career history to life for us. So Rhys, over to you.

Speaker B: Thanks Nicky and thanks for having me on what is clearly now a very prestigious podcast that you've built and very honored. So thank you. I guess I fell into law like many do and haven't perhaps followed the traditional path that many do to get into the legal world but mine sort of goes all the way back to choices I made post education and what I wanted to do at the time. So back when, when I was studying A levels weren't mandatory at the time but I thought I did them um, but never really had ambitions to go to university at the time wanted to get into the world of work, wanted to start earning money, wanted to start a career in some way but really I wasn't thinking about the long term back then when I was sort of A level time I was I uh, studied things like business studies and English etc. But and did okay but could have done better I felt but I got offered an opportunity to work via a family friend in the engineering world bizarrely had no real credentials for that but just wanted to work and earn and at the time was earning very good money at the age of 18 and thought it was fantastic and could buy lots of things that never. I've never thought I'd be able to buy at that age but after about a year and a year and a half doing that I realized that wasn't for me in the long term it was a short term fix, short term gain and lots of people in that space advised me to go and use the education that I'd had at that point and what they felt of me in terms of my potential to do something a little bit different. So I was a late comer to the university world because uh, I took a two year gap basically through that period and went back to university probably at the age of 20 I guess at the time not a mature student by any account but a bit later than others.

Speaker A: Still immature.

Speaker B: I was still immature yeah exactly. But I really wanted to go back and sort of correct the wrongs of my A level result which I felt could have been better. I did well at GCSE but not so well A level I got into sort of what my 16, 17 at the time learning to drive, learning to go out your friends and not do dedicated enough to education and I wanted to correct that so I went back to university. I picked a topic which I thought was super hot and relevant at the time in marketing and something I'd enjoyed doing at ah, uh, A level in the business studies course and at uh that time digital marketing was becoming a real thing social marketing in terms of influences et cetera was becoming a thing and the course just interested me more than anything and I wanted options at the end of the day university and I felt that that gave me it so I did that three year course worked really really hard at university, was committed, didn't stay away, didn't get caught up in the, the nightlife aspect of uni. Probably missed out on that part but benefited from the, from the educational aspect of it. I felt I did well first at university and then I had options available to me which weren't available prior. I could have gone into work at the time but didn't I. I still had an itch in me that I wanted to go traveling and did for probably circle 18 months in total which was always pre planned and uh, did the sort of classic route around the world, Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand, America etc and loved it. Fantastic time of my life and something which has served me well to this point in terms of understanding culture and just making me more grounded as a, as a human as well as it was obviously a lot of fun as well. You sort of fast forward through those many years then of education, couple of years out. I was sort of further behind than others in terms of figuring out what my career should be. But I had the fallback of, of my degree to, to help me. It so happens that when I was in Australia and in Sydney for a period where I was caused out traveling for a bit and needed to work, I found this random opportunity working for a law firm. Not doing anything really which is related to what I do now but sort of administrative I guess. But it just gave me an insight into the world of law firms which I had no idea or concept of. They also had a very small marketing department which amazed me because I had no idea what marketing in a law firm really meant at the time. And I was just, I just loved the environment. I loved the sort of, the professional nature of it. The people were fantastic, they were very smart, they were very welcoming and it just gave me an exposure into that world. Fast forward me returning to London to sort of grow up and get a career. I had no idea again what I wanted to do do at that point. And I just so happened to get in touch with the agency that got me this very short term gig in, in Sydney and asked them like what might I be able to do in London. And the only role they had at the time and the only one I ever went for was to go for this interview at uh, Dentons. And it was a marketing assistant role of which I knew very little about. I obviously had a marketing degree and knew what marketing was, but I had no idea what marketing and law firm meant. I went along, not too many hopes or, or expectations really and met A fantastic manager at the time who saw something in me. I had no experience at all except I guess, potential. And she gave me a chance and it was a six month contract. I started as an assistant. I think they promoted me after those six months and made me permanent. And I was a BD exec basically at Benson's and at the time had gone through, I don't know, ex merger maybe number seven or something and was the seventh largest law firm in the world and it was a thrilling time to be there. I did about a year and a half, two years at Denton's and felt it's probably time now to try something new and wanted to go probably to a US firm at the time. A lot of hype around them in London at that period.

Speaker A: But again, that's really intentional, isn't it? You're really thinking about your career and I love the fact that even when you talk about your history there and you wanted to earn money so you left after A levels, then you decided you wanted to do a degree and you'd already planned to travel, you know, you're very intentional in these career choices and I know you hadn't necessarily thought I'm going to be marketing a VD law firm, uh, for my career. But you do think carefully about how that's going to impact you and, and your development, don't you?

Speaker B: Ah, I think you have to because it's the career's in your hands and I think every choice you make has an impact. If you make the wrong one, then you might be stuck in a firm that doesn't quite work for you and then you're setting yourself back. But equally I had a, having only worked at Denzens for a short period, knew where I wanted to get to and felt I needed a next jump. So I made that intentional choice there and then I made it again when I left Sherman after a couple of years. Ended up managing my own practice for a while. I wanted to get more of a client side type role and this amazing opportunity came up at Slaughter in May, a firm which I was always super keen to go and work for. For whatever reason, it just had a mystique about it and one that everyone talked very positively about in terms of quality.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And this role came up to manage their client program and it was perfect at the time. Little experience in that side of things, but exposure to how saultramai manage their clients was the real selling point. And it was an amazing experience to get in the room with those partners to learn and hear how they Go about managing client relationships. Incredible at the time how much impact I really impart on them. As a junior manager, probably little except project management and taking things over. But over time I got to learn the business and was able to influence in terms of idea generation and how we can sort of expand those relationships. And it was, it was a fascinating firm to work for for me, what, nine years, I think in the end.

Speaker A: Wow. Um, and did you find, when you were, you were at Slaughters, did you then think, this is where I want to be, this is my career choice now I want to be, uh, accelerate my career in, in law firms, in BD and marketing. Was it, was it all coming together for you then?

Speaker B: I think it was. I mean you have to love this world, right? And you have to get up every day and find it super interesting. And for whatever reason, um, from the moment I joined law firms and that professional environment and the partnership set up, I just, I just loved it and felt that I could be me in those places and could do really well. And I've always had feedback to that effect which has sort of encouraged me along, along the way as well as the feedback that you get. You, you just know if you're, if you're doing well or not. And I got the sense I'm doing okay, so I'm just going to continue to go at it. And there is a very good career path in media marketing which many of us benefit from. So I felt that there is longevity to it and I could only see 15, 20 years into the future of, of those opportunities. It's not like I could see it stagnating at any point and providing I'm enjoying it and felt I'm doing a decent job, then there is no reason to change industry for me. And I'm still in that same position actually with 15, 20 years ahead of me. I can still see that.

Speaker A: So good, isn't it? And is it at that period of time then the moment you're managing teams, as you say, you starting to really own uh, your career? Is that when you transitioned into leadership over management? Can you actually remember when that happened or is it, was it a gradual process?

Speaker B: I actually think it's sort of gradual in some way. But also there was an overnight element to it for me because I remember being a senior manager at Slaughter Remain, I was running a very small team in corporate at the time and there was an opportunity to expand that, uh, and lead. I was co leading actually. I got an opportunity to co lead the BD team at large, which was I don't know how many more people that added to that, to that roster, but it was significant. It transitioned overnight from me having to manage a few people and a function which were doing the same thing, in effect selling the same thing to multi practice, multi jurisdiction and needed to turn into a leader. And uh, all of the skills to that point have to sort of come through. But you also have a blank piece of paper, think, wow, I need to, I need to figure this out. And it was an overnight moment, really in reality, but a fun one and a, uh, great time to do it. And I had an opportunity to sort of map out with my, my colleague what, what we felt we needed from the team, where we thought we could take it and what kind of leadership we wanted to impart.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the thing that has served me well there and at, uh, my current role is actually, I put it all back to sort of, I guess I'd call it vision slash strategy. What do we want to be as a team? What are the expectations for this team? And being pretty prescriptive about that. Huh. And intentional and then having to communicate that. And for me, the core components of that vision always. I don't think this really changes in whatever role I might do is I think we have to be focused on outcomes. As a BD operation, it can be very easy to get caught up in outputs.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Doing stuff and keeping busy and thinking that we're doing a good job. But it's all about the outcomes we achieve in terms of driving success, driving growth, demonstrating the results that we get. So that's key. The other for me is just always how we are adding value as an individual and as an, as an operation, we have to demonstrate what value we bring to the table as strategic advisors. Sometimes that value is brought by just the execution and the very good execution of that. But equally, what more can we add on top of that that sets us apart and takes it to the next level, expands the opportunity and demonstrates that we are bringing something more to the table and we're spotting opportunities. And as I say, we're demonstrating why we are the strategic people in the room. Uh, I don't want to be a resource unit. I feel like our job is to challenge and bring ideas and push things forward. And it's key to always test what value we are providing at each stage.

Speaker A: And how do you then impart that into your team? Because I know that you, as you've said, there's part of your focus on leadership and growing members in your team. And you and I have Talked about this, haven't we, uh, around the communication element is so important and that transparency. But how do you enable your, your team to learn, grow and develop?

Speaker B: When I joined Scadden, what just over a year ago now, I had the opportunity to, to start again and to uh, set out what my expectations were in consultation with the team. And I did that as a big set piece. I think that always lands quite well and line it up as a big set piece. Like we're going to get together in three weeks and I'm going to talk to you about what I think the vision is for our team and we're going to have a conversation about that. And I did that and I set it out as that vision with how I believe we should be operating and what we need to be able to achieve and how we're going to demonstrate that achievement and how we'll measure it. And I did that as the big set piece. And then I think from there everyone is set goals based on their performance, how they're appraised and how they're rewarded and how you are evaluated, I guess has to feed back into the overall vision. And if everyone has their goals and they know what their objectives are and they are pointing towards that vision, then they know how they'll be rewarded towards the end of the year. So I think that that's a component. The other aspect of it I think is just the hard work attached to that, which is continued coaching and reinforcement and investing time in people and that, that doesn't come easy. But just, just standing up and saying this is what we need to achieve and then hoping that people do it just never works. It's, it's impossible, right? Some, some might just jump all over that and, and run as natural, but lots of people in fairness need extra support on that. And I think that's where me personally and others around me have a responsibility to coach people through that and so sort of quality control and make suggestions and sort of give ideas and that, that takes quite a lot of day to day investment and an important component of what we do as leaders for sure.

Speaker A: And I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it? You know, people in leadership roles, you're only as successful as the people that you're bringing through. And it's so insane, essential and important to give. I think you and I have talked about this, giving people opportunities and these stretch goals and you know, really giving them exposure to elements of the role that they wouldn't normally have. Whether it's seeing either going on A partner meeting with you or you know, doing that. That coaching element is essential, isn't it?

Speaker B: Massively. And I've always had great opportunities as I was a junior coming through great managers and leaders who gave me those opportunities. And I was probably a bit of an annoying person that kept asking for them and pushing them through. But I think that's important too. And that sort of coaching element, the shadowing element is critical to learn from others and see how they operate and then try and tailor it to yourself. I think that's absolutely key and I'm really passionate about giving others those opportunities and I don't need my own profile to be raised as a result of that. It comes naturally from a world and high performing team anyway as the sort of the figurehead of that. So I don't care about my own profile. I'd rather have my team out there doing really great stuff that I've empowered them to do and I'll support them along the way to do that. Sometimes that'll be with me by their side. Others it's sort of give them the opportunity and they go and run with it. But I think it's really key to give people the freedom to do that. Otherwise people don't find enough pleasure and joy from the day to day role if they're just executing and you're not, they're not meeting their objectives and their goals. I was given those opportunities and I think it's key that I give others the same.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And you touched on the uh, you know, the coaching you've had mentoring and I know you mentor as well outside of your team situation and also sponsorship. So how important is it to have all of those? Because they're very different things, aren't they? Mentoring, coaching and sponsorship and you know, and how do people find those people to do that to them outside of their direct leaders?

Speaker B: Yeah, I've seen all different ways work with. Actually when I was at Slaughter May the uh. There was a mentoring and coaching schemes that allowed you to tap into people outside of your department. And I think that can be really useful because you understand another world, you see a different perspective. The downside is they don't necessarily understand your world as much but I think they do bring something different. So I think that that really works. There's also opportunities to get mentored outside of, of your own law firm and it's not always as easy, especially for some of the smaller law firms to have mentoring opportunities within so you can tap into the outside world. And I think that's really important. And there are great organizations that offer that. Now the NMA is a great example in Europe that does that. There are others where you can go and meet people either from the same industry or another industry and get mentored by them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it just gives you a safe space and a place to run ideas by people and to tackle even sometimes not even law firm or BD related points. It can be wider, it can be stakeholder management, it can be how do I, uh, how do I work with my new boss for example? And I think those role models and those people that you can lean on. Absolutely. It's vital, I think, to find those. And if you don't already have them, you need to find who those people are.

Speaker A: You really have to find your tribe, don't you? I think at different stages in your career, your tribe may be a little bit different or you travel through your career development to get together and they become your trusted advisors as well, don't they, in your psychological safe group, which is so important.

Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. And I've always been a bit irritating, I guess, and I've always looked a few levels ahead of me in whatever stage of my career I was at and sought out those people to sort of buddy up with them. And either they were mentoring me informally or formally, but I felt that it was important for me to go and understand their world and to understand, uh, how they operate because it's where I want to get to eventually. And that I think has always been a, a tactic that's worked for me personally. And I've developed amazing relationships over that period with those people. And so that, that, that's a little thing that I sort of discovered quite early on that has played out quite nicely for me over the time.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's great, isn't it? And you know, uh, what stage should people build these networks? As you mentioned, they. Very early on in your career you were very focused on networking, on connecting with people. I'm looking at people maybe a couple of levels ahead to, to build these relationships with as we were talking about, which is, is, is intentional networking. But you know, when, when should people start networking?

Speaker B: I think it's straight away. I mean, there are more networking opportunities now than there ever were. And there's some amazing organizations out there, some which have been created by even very junior people in this world that have started their own networks and they're going great guns in the market. And I'm, um, I'm not amazed, but I'm, I'm super positive and I applaud the people that have done that because it's built up such traction. So I think you have to start super early. I started as a, an assistant or an exec and have always managed my network. And the network expands and grows and you LinkedIn numbers increase the whole way through. But you have to invest in it because it's only useful if you make the effort to go to the networking receptions or go to that roundtable or, or go to that event or engage in the WhatsApp group, which is the, which is the new one. It's not new, but it's only one that continues to expand. I mean, so many WhatsApp groups now, you forget who's in them, but you have to, you have to invest the time in all of them to make them work. And I get such reward out of all of them. I don't ever leave one of those networking discussions and not have not benchmarked what we're doing versus them or got a, a brainwave out of that. I think it's such an open and inclusive and relatively transparent environment where we're all quite happy to share within the competition framework, which allows us to share ideas amongst each other to, to better the industry. I think that's why everyone does it. It's because we all want the industry to increase and if we're all doing really well and we're all innovating, we're all going to benefit in the long run.

Speaker A: I think that's one of the things I, uh, do love about your industry is that people are very generous with their time with one another. And as you say, within some constraints, people want to share best practice and that to make the industry an even better place to work. And I think that's so powerful. And people genuinely want to see the industry develop, don't they?

Speaker B: They do. I've never, I've not met anyone in this industry that, that isn't open to having a conversation about what we're doing, what we're seeing, what can we improve. Obviously those topics change regularly and keeping abreast of them is key. And if you just take the topic of AI right now, that being able to benchmark what's going on in the market against others and try and tackle that new world together. You've got an army there rather than a solo brain trying to figure that out. And everyone I meet is super engaged in trying to tackle those topics.

Speaker A: I think that's the one topic that every single leader, uh, or roundtable or conference summer, uh, people are talking about. And no one's got the answer yet, have they? But at least people are talking as you're saying, which generates ideas and we need to keep talking about it, don't we?

Speaker B: We do. I think I'm a real glass half full person on AI. I'm super positive about it. I don't. There's going to be some challenges along the way. Of course there are, but I see that, I see it being is additive. It's going to revolutionize, I think how we operate just in the media marketing world here legal is a separate conversation and that faces the same types of questions. But as a media marketing operator I can see how it's already demonstrating its potential and its benefits and I can see in my mind where this is going and it's only going to get even better than where it is right now. Everything's improving at each stage. I think if we embrace it and if we set our teams up for the future to embrace that, then it's going to change the way we operate, but only for the better. I think we're going to have another engine and a supercharged one to help our brains make sense of what, what we would like to do next. And it's going to give us sort of an extra layer of resource and an extra team if you like. But it's going to be our disposal. It's just, it's going to be bumpy along the way for sure. It's not going to be easy, but it's going to be fun.

Speaker A: It's a positive way to look at it. And you know, if you think about the people coming through now are digital natives, aren't they? So these are the people that are going to be able to embrace and innovate with AI quicker than some of the people that have been in the industry for longer. And so it's about again encouraging people coming through, isn't it, to uh, have ideas and share ideas and to think about different ways of working. And also I think working with the development in AI and the tech that we'll utilize, it also means that soft skills in people are going to become even more important. So that goes back into your mentoring, ensuring that the teams also are uh, developing these skill sets. I think there's lots uh, of opportunities out there with the development of AI.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And they are digital native. But actually the new generation coming through whatever age range you want to look at between 18 to 24 coming into legal now, this is the first generation really that has AI at their disposal from day one obviously was never available to my Generation, even the generation before that had little bits of things that they could play with. But this is really, I think the generation that comes in and has to demonstrate how this will work for the future. And they are the key component of that. They are the business case really how does the junior operate in the AI world? Because they need to demonstrate that role for the future. And I think they have to come in and work with their leaders to figure that out. And that's the fascinating thing with this. As I say, I'm super positive about it, but we do need to work that out quickly.

Speaker A: It's going to be interesting, isn't it? And you and I have talked a lot about high performing teams and I know that you're very focused on being part of a high performing team, creating high performing teams. And it seems to me like the culture at scale Scadden is very much focused around that. So how, what's the alignment around that? And talk to me about the cultural elements at Scadden as well.

Speaker B: So, uh, look, I think I'm very fortunate to have worked for elite firms throughout my career and each one is slightly different.

Speaker A: I challenge you on that. Is that fortunate or is that intentional? Because it seems to me that's quite intentional move.

Speaker B: Yeah, fair point. And it is intentional. I guess I did have that debate when I was considering my next move at Saul Treme very elite law firm. What do I do next? Do I go to another elite law firm where it makes most sense or do I do try something different?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so happens I. This opportunity came up and fascinated by the brand of Skadden and the opportunity that it, it happened that I'm going to go and work for another elite law firm. And that was, that was great. I mean it's slightly different in the sense that this is an elite US law firm. So uh, that, that was interesting to me and it was a phenomenal opportunity because we had the opportunity to build a BD function globally here for one of the top five law firm brands in the world. And they just didn't have that bd, uh, operation that many others have already invested in. So the ability to build something like that was a massive draw for me. But with working at these elite law firms there is high expectation and rightly so, because the quality of law that they provide, the quality of service, the policy of client, client care is at the very, very top. And they charge for that. Right. I mean these are expensive law firms. It's an expensive service. So everyone around that has to be at the very top of Their game in my view. And that means for my team or uh, teams over the years is we have to be the best team that is matching the brand that we are operating in. And I think that when you're in that environment, of which I'm again fortunate to have been in, it pushes everyone to do better, whether your team or not, because everyone's operating at a level and I find that a real motivator that drives me and makes me a better version of myself every day. Because you have to be on the top of your game in all, in all interactions, whether it's with a client or it's with a partner or whoever. The expectation is that you're going to have the answer and that you're going to be pushed on that and people are nice about it. Right. But that is just the expectation. So for me the team has to be operating at that, at that level always. We have to do the best type of execution that we possibly can. Things have to be slick and smooth and we have to go and deliver. But back to my point around adding value all the way along. We have to demonstrate why we are here and we are the strategic advisors and why we are hired to come up with ideas and to push the envelope further. And that, that's really important that we do have that team that's all operating at the level. It's, it's not easy getting that balance right and operating at that level always for sure, because it shouldn't be easy either. But uh, if you really like this environment and you are uh, motivated by this environment like I am, then as I say the people around you in those high performing environments really push you to do better on a regular basis. And I feed off of that energy mainly to, to drive me as well as what sort of sparked me internally. It's that, it's that it's like the people around you really drive you to do better.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you've got, I think you and I have talked about before this real curiosity around how can we improve, how can we innovate, how can it get better all the time? And that's quite built in you, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it is naturally built in. I suppose every day I try to think of ways to improve things or trying to come up with ideas. I guess that naturally I like to uh, create things or build things or solve problems or try and spot opportunities. So it is a natural curiosity, I guess that pushes down. I don't think that's something that you can create in people. Really they have it or they don't have that and it doesn't mean they can't be successful or influential or do very well in this industry. If they don't always have that, uh, there's sort of roles that, that allows them to still flourish. But I think for me it's important in my role because I should always be innovating and looking for opportunities. We're in a hugely competitive environment. There are so many competitors out there that we have to compete with on a regular basis. So if we're not innovating and finding new solutions, new ideas, then. And we're falling behind. So for me it's driven by, by the role, but also, so it comes naturally to me just to think of how we can, we can better ourselves and then trying to encourage that within the team and bring those great ideas that others have in the team through that, uh, have that already as well. So trying to give them the space to do that and push them to, to find the space because sometimes it's in people and they just haven't found the door to open yet or they haven't found the space to sort of push their ideas through. So trying to unlock that in people, I think is uh, a nice challenge.

Speaker A: It's a skill in itself, isn't it? And so we talked about resilience earlier. How important is resilience in a career in BD and marketing, in a law firm? Uh, or.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. I mean, again, back to the high performing environment. These are tough places and you're, you're working with people that can be super stressed, super stretched and sometimes can react in that environment, which means that you might get a snappy email or a snappy response or no response, or things are not quite moving at the pace you want. This isn't an environment, is it?

Speaker A: It's not personal.

Speaker B: No, of course, I don't ever take those things personally. Actually what we don't have is a bunch of partners sitting there waiting to talk strategy every day on bd. Like the onus is on us because they're doing the law. Uh, yes, they're doing their BD as well. But it's actually our job to encourage that and make it easy for them and look for those opportunities for them. So it's not like you've got this captive audience waiting for you at every opportunity to give you their time. So you have to be resilient because that's not always available to you. So you might have people that are a bit more difficult and that comes with the Environment, you also got high pressured environment so you're going to have to know how to navigate that. Uh, and things don't work perfectly smooth all the time because things can be slower in a law firm or can stall or you've got to navigate multiple stakeholders and the politics. So you need resilience to be able to combat all of those things and you just naturally need to be resilient really. I think in this environment to be able to dust yourself off each time and go again every morning should be a fresh start. If yesterday was a bit rubbish and you didn't quite get what you wanted out of the day, then you just try again the next day. If you lull in that, then it's going to be a tough week and it's going to be a tough month and then you're not really going to start to enjoy the things that you're sort of here to do. And I think that becomes a downward spiral if you don't just embrace it and just accept that this is a tougher environment and you need to know how to, to operate and navigate through it.

Speaker A: Which is also why you need your tribe around you as well because you know, it could be that you're having a more challenging day and you can reach out and someone else is just like, yeah, this happened to me too. And it just again, it makes you feel okay, doesn't it? You can live to fight another day.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's the again back to sort of the WhatsApp groups that you in and the network that you have that the ability to talk to someone off record and have a safe space and realize that it's not just you, it's how happening everywhere it makes you sleep a bit easier at night and equally you get some great advice as well from, from those people. So if you've not you don't quite know how to navigate a certain situation, then others will have some suggestions for you and it pays back to have that network.

Speaker A: And I think, you know, again, this goes back into that. Always be learning. So it helps to be able to really reflect. I know you're a big self reflector, aren't you? On what's gone really well so you could do more of that. What's maybe not gone as well so that you can do things differently. But that's something that you've done throughout your career, isn't it? That self reflection piece?

Speaker B: Yeah, I try to give myself space to do that and be intentional about it but it also sort of needs to be natural as well. I guess you should always sort of evaluate at every stage you can why things are working the way they are or not or, or how we might improve things because we are in an environment where you need to constantly evolve and innovate and improve. So I think you have to reflect on, on those things. The challenge with that actually is to carve out the time with others to, to have the proper self. Well, not just self reflection, sort of team reflection at that reflection or project reflection where you want to go. Okay, let's talk about how this project went down and what we achieved and what we could do better. Candidly, I don't think we, we have enough time to be able to do that. As much as I quite like to. It'd be great, right? But it's tough when the next thing

Speaker A: comes up and these are busy roles, as we say.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So finding the space in the day, albeit we know that's a great idea, is difficult. So I think you just have to select the premium project perhaps to, to be able to do that properly and you'll always learn something from that and be able to sort of invest it into the next one. So I think that's key. And then the self reflection piece for me is just finding the time to do that. Whether that's the commute or a walk or, or even walking around the office sometimes does that. I always like to pause where I can and figure out what could we do better? What could I do better? Yeah, um, and try and do something about it. That's key. It's like find some self reflect. But what do you do? What do you do differently?

Speaker A: Differently, Yeah. I love that. And what about, you know, we talked about, obviously your teams have got a lot on you and your peers have got a lot on. How are you personally avoid avoiding the burnout stress. How are you looking after your well being? Is there such thing as a work life balance and how do you also help with your teams doing that as well?

Speaker B: I think there definitely is a work life balance and it's usually on the person to find what that is. It's easy for me to say that, but I understand that uh, people that are more junior in the team, it's not always, they don't always know what their work life balance should be and they feel certain pressure of working in this type of place. So I fully appreciate that. For me personally, I tend to work really hard during the week and then I'll work from home on a Friday. But which is a day that most people work from home, which Gives me sort of run up a week Monday to Thursday, longer days, uh, can have a really good go at having my focus on work. That doesn't mean that family life doesn't come into it. I try to be balanced where I can, but equally I know that Monday to Thursday is the hard run. Reality is there's certain things that I probably have missed outside of work. But equally I try to be there for all the things that are really important. The key moments. Young kids, so youngest start school in September, obviously we'll be there for, for that period or, or the sports day or the parents night. I tend not to miss any of those things and then try to do the important bits like home for bed. At least whoever been nice I can possibly do that. So I think finding that balance for you and what is important to you in your life is, is the important bit. Everyone has different priorities and they. Some have children attached to it, some have other things. And I think finding that balance is key. The thing that I always do is if it gets to a certain part of the day and I don't have a pressing deadline and there are not that many of them, in fairness, this is a tougher environment. But actually no one's pressuring me for stuff later than I, frankly. And they're not doing it really for the team most of the time. Right. But for me, if I get to the point where I feel like I've done enough for one day and I'm not going to be productive anymore, then I know it can park to the next day and most things can. Like in our world there are certain deadlines that we have, but lots of the time things can roll over and the partners here are super understanding. If it doesn't have like a client deadline attached to it, then they'll happily listen to what the next deadline should be and understand why as long as you communicate it. So I think you just need to know when your day is done or your week is done and that you'll be better if you just wait for the next day to be your productive self. And I think that if everyone lives by that rule, then you're not going to get to the point where you're just sitting there crunching the keyboard late into the night for no real benefit really. It's going to benefit no one at that point.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that it's around recognizing your own levels of where your stress ends and starts. And for some people it is being able to log on a Sunday for a couple of hours to get everything ready for next week and other people that would be the worst thing in possible for them to do. So it's finding your own, isn't it?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I don't think there's any, there's no right or wrong answer with that. Uh, um, try to encourage that people have their, their separation from work and the weekends should be that and sort of evening should be that. Sometimes it sort of interferes with that slightly but not that often really. But equally it should be the onus is on the person to do that some. I'll do the weekend thing occasionally where I just want to get ahead of things but sometimes I, I won't because I, I'd rather just have a clearer Sunday and just. And pick it up on Monday and that's fine. I'm not missing anything at that point.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. And we talked about the, you know that you really genuinely want to pay it forward in the industry as well and the future talent and pipelining future talent and, and diverse talent is important to you and so talk about the apprenticeship scheme that's just been set up at Scaddens because it sounds really exciting.

Speaker B: Uh, I'm really excited about this one. So I actually was involved in the Sorcerer Made Academy that was launched many years ago now and I thought that was a fantastic scheme. So it was a grad scheme at uh, a time where there were only a few of them actually in, in law firms I'd say where we looked for the next generation by taking them out of once they've obviously finished their degrees and running a workshop and finding the best talent that we could for the future to bring through as ah, at the junior end of the team and that's been hugely successful but the way really, really successful. Some of them are still there or they're in other parts of the, of the industry and they're, they're doing amazingly well. So really good speed. When I joined here I actually, I had an opportunity, sort of some gaps in the team at the junior end and. And for what? How do we want to recruit at that level? We could go and do the vanilla. Let's go and find two execs in the market already that maybe done a year which is obviously fine and it works for many but we had an opportunity to do something slightly different and I've always been passionate about pathways into law or pathways into professional services and felt that there are other options. It's just not always available to people and grad schemes and hiring people tends to rely on them having done a degree And I wanted to introduce something that didn't require that because not everyone wants to go to university or has the ability to, whether it be economics or otherwise, and felt that we're missing talent if we don't open up that talent pool. So we introduced an apprenticeship scheme for people that don't, they don't have to have gone to university. And we'll give them the training on the job for two years. They'll get an apprenticeship at the end of that, uh, a proper qualification, but they'll, they'll run through a program of developmental opportunities and have the opportunity to flourish in this environment. And we're only, we're at the very start of that. We've got two fantastic people that have joined us over the last couple of weeks. They went through quite a rigorous assessment day. I think we had 100 people apply to two. Oh my gosh, that's um, trying to narrow that down was, was difficult. Then we had 10 come to the assessment day and to the person, they were all phenomenal. They all stood up and did presentations to a room full of my team members with like 50 minutes notice. It was incredible how they, how they could do that. I don't think I could have done that at that age, frankly. But they did it. And we had the tough job of trying to pick two of them out and we picked two real standout winners from the day. And they've just joined us and they're brilliant because they've got the right attitudes. They have this fantastic opportunity now, uh, their age to, to get real skills and to get an apprenticeship at the end of it and to start their pathway on this career job journey that we're all in. And we'll give them the tools to do that. And for me it's not about them being a resource in the team. Like that's really important. They are because they're here and they need to get involved in these. But for me it's about their experience and their program and we give them the skills. And at the end of it we should be able to evaluate ourselves and say, did we give them that experience? Did they learn all of the things that we want them to learn to become a full, rounded BDL marketing exec at the end of it. And that means that we have to be super intentional about their experience. We have to make sure they've got, uh, training along the way, but also opportunities to do different things. Like they shouldn't be here just doing the same task over and over again because that's going to be super boring.

Speaker A: And you're not learning, are you learning?

Speaker B: It's mildly useful for us, but not even really. I want them to have a checklist of client relationship management people, pitching directories, uh, events, referring, et cetera, et cetera. All of the things that we all do within our roles. I want them to have gone around all of them and have had the opportunity to experience them. And as I say, we have to make sure we're disciplined about that because it's very easy to let that slide. So we've got a good program, they've had a really good induction schedule. Early signs are fantastic and I think it's great to do something slightly different.

Speaker A: I love it. I think that's such a great example. Be interesting, as you say, to track it next year, the following year, and to, uh, follow people's careers through as well, and the impact it will make.

Speaker B: So interestingly, when I put the post out for those roles, I mean, I don't post that often on LinkedIn really. Not as much as I probably should. That got the most comments and traction I've ever had. People were genuinely interested and, and we're, we've, we're proud in there actually, as a, as something new, really. Yeah, it's certainly something that's not as unique. It's, it's more unique in this industry, I'd say. Yeah, lots of traction. So clearly people find that interested. I went out, I went out on the legal walk yesterday with both of the apprentices were there and one of them reminded me that she got offered this opportunity via, uh, a senior manager I used to work with at Soldier May who messaged me on LinkedIn, said, I saw your post, I know this candidate, look out for her. And I had so many at the time. I didn't join the dot and I was trying to be impartial, so I didn't, I wasn't influenced really by outside. But she reminded me yesterday that it came like that, so she would never have known about it actually until, uh, I posted. So the power of the network I get, I guess.

Speaker A: Network. That's so interesting, isn't it? You know, that's got you most traction. I like to think I put a lot of really great content out on LinkedIn and the, the most traction I ever got was the photo of me and Rod Stewart when I bumped into him and that went, that went viral.

Speaker B: I like the Piers Morgan one, though. I thought that was, that was a great one. I want, I need to hear the Madonna story, though. We haven't.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'LL talk about that later.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So what about future challenges then, for facing BD leaders? What are you, what are you. We talked about AI. There's obviously a huge challenge ahead with that. But what would you say are the biggest challenges that you and your peers are facing?

Speaker B: I think AI is the biggest challenge and opportunity. I think that the BDR marketing team of the future looks very different, perhaps because of AI. So you embrace it and, and you start to design things in that way, then you'll flourish, I think. But it also is a challenge because, as I said, it's going to be a bumpy ride to get there because it's the tools and the technology is so phenomenal now or going to be phenomenal that it's going to transform how we operate. So navigating that is going to be crazy crucial. The other ad old challenges I think still remain. Finding the right talent is always a challenge. Finding the right people to come in and work here and do well here is always going to be difficult and an opportunity as well. The competitive landscape is probably the greatest challenge. Alongside AI, there's more and more law firms opening up or expanding or investing than I've ever seen. I think it's fantastic for the industry. Clearly there's a market for it, but equally there's going to be more competition for, for mandates and being able to navigate, uh, that and to set ourselves apart and to demonstrate, uh, why we are better. Value is, is critical. Right. And that's, that's why we're here and we do our roles. So again, I would see that as an opportunity as well as a challenge. Trying to be thinking of it from a positive perspective because it pushes us to do better. So they're sort of obvious ones, all of them, but I think they're, they're the things that you sort of try to face every day.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's, you've hit the nail on the head there. And then what about words of wisdom then, to maybe Reese when he decided after A levels he was going to go work and earn some money to Reese that then has decided he's got his career and future in BD and marketing in law?

Speaker B: I think, I guess it depends on who I'm talking to here. But one that sort of catches all, I guess, is to sort of fully embrace yourself in this industry and in the work that you do. If you bring your best self to work, uh, if you challenge people, if you come up with ideas, if you find your voice, if you find your inner self, you can do really well, knowing how to sort of operate in this environment is half of the challenge. And knowing how to navigate the sort of politics and the relationships and the people is the real thing here. But I think you have to throw yourself into it. If you're not passionate about it and if you're just doing it because it's a job, not a career, then you're going to struggle. I think you have to be fully committed and wake up every day enjoying it. If you're not enjoying it, then there are lots of other things you can do.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. Well, I have to say, Reece, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so much. And definitely I'll take away. Bring your best self to work every day. I think everyone needs to do that in whatever they're doing. And as you say, if you're not happy every day, you're not always going to be happy every day. Uh, I would say the majority of the time, if you're not happy, then that's going to make it a lot harder to do what we all need to do in our jobs. Absolutely glorious. I think that's one of your mantras as well, which I love. Um, and also really think about what value are you adding in your role on a day to day basis. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity. Nikki, see you soon.

Speaker A: See you soon.