The Paraplanner to Adviser Pipeline: How to Bridge the Gap | Georgia Thomas & Andrianna Rawlings

You don't tend to find mediocre women doing this job. If they're doing it, they're doing it incredibly well. Today I'm very kindly joined by Georgia and Annie, who are regulars to the Hoxton Life podcast scene. I don't think it's a challenge being a woman in finance.

I think it's a challenge finding the right firm for you as a woman. You can go to pretty much anyone and ask for help. I know I've worked in environments before where it's you versus me. There have been times where me and Kaz are learning things together.

And then you've got to learn new terms. Obviously, we're all UK-based, or we've started our careers there, like in US, what they would call clients or what they would call stocks, and all of that is very different. Having that teamwork is really, really important so that they can also have a life. They also should be able to go on a holiday and go to a watch their kids do a play at school and know that they can do that and things are not going to fall apart.

The depth of the relationship that you have with your advisor has been built up over time. You can have the client conversations. You can be exposed to that stuff. You are trusted, you know, as as you know, junior advisers, essentially, we call it paraplanners, but that's what it is.

Welcome to another episode of Hoxton Life. And today I'm very kindly joined by Georgia and Annie, who are regulars uh to the Hoxton Life podcast scene. Um, their roles are paraplanners uh within our business, both training and have got lots of exams and moving towards becoming planners in their own rights, which is absolutely fantastic. Um, and I believe G has been with us for four years.

Yeah. And Annie has been with us for nearly five years now, um, which is great. And they've both been working with their advisors, which we'll come on to for a while. So welcome.

Um, we're not gonna do the typical career journey today. What we are gonna cover is international versus UK paraplanning and how you guys have found that and then you know and the transitions. We're gonna talk more about your exams, we're gonna talk more about women in international finance and how that's been and your experiences so far, and obviously more about your career goals going forward and what you guys want to achieve as well, which would be fantastic. So I'm excited.

So let's kick off with planning, um, paraplanning UK versus international. Now I know that you guys have mainly focused on the international side, um, but you have still got a bit of a taste of the UK side because I know you guys have been doing some overtime, some weekend work, etc., to assist with other things, which we're obviously thankful for as always. But how do you feel that the roles kind of differ between the international space and the UK space?

I personally find internationally you have more access to clients, you speak more to clients, you are definitely exposed more to client life. Whereas in the UK, you are very much in the background, working on reports, a lot more analytical and less client-facing. Yeah. Um, you work alongside a wealth manager in the UK very closely, but they wouldn't expose you to sitting in front of a client.

It would be more of a stepping stone to become the wealth manager, but you would be getting your exam there and then, and then you would be moving up. Um, whereas I find internationally, especially working here in Hoxton, I have a lot of exposure to clients. Yeah. Do a lot of the fact finds, review risk, have the conversations um with future planning, retirement planning, what more they want from it alongside my advisor as well, which is is a lot nicer because it's nicer to have the exposure.

Especially when you're writing reports, I find when I've sat and done the fact find, my report is a lot better than when you just sit and speak to your advisor and they give you the information. It's it's different, it's not the same, it's secondhand information. Yeah. Um, whereas getting that feel from the client initially.

Yeah. Being able to draw the information that you know that you need and then being able to kind of move it along. Yeah. Why why do you think I mean, obviously, you both work with fantastic planners?

George obviously you work with a senior partner, you work with a senior financial planner, Michaela, um, who has been with well, I've known Michaela for 15 years nearly now. So we've we've we've uh we've known each other for a long time, but obviously she's she's amazing. How you know how have you found that dynamic? Um You can't say anything bad about Cassie.

I hate him. He's a nightmare. I think it's it's really different, and it's it's a real privilege to get to work alongside people who have been doing it for a long time and who probably more so from an international perspective than a UK perspective have seen the industry change so much. So there have been times where me and Kaz are learning things together, we're learning a new process, we're learning how to do something, there's new products, new he might have been qualified somewhere that he wasn't before.

So you kind of get to do all of your education of how to be a good advisor, how to speak to clients, all of these background things, but sometimes you get to do it with them and you get to build that I've had the chance to build how I best speak to clients, learning from him, but not necessarily having to sort of mimic what he does because there's no there's no stringent steps on what you have to do, which I think maybe is a bit different, sort of like a UK perspective, where there's kind of a right and wrong thing to do when you you have to do things in a certain way.

Obviously, you still have to follow all the right rules in every jurisdiction, but there's different ways of planning dependent on where people are going to retire or where they're based now and what their goals are. Everyone's different, right? So learning different ways to speak to clients and build that rapport and stuff with them has been really good. I I've been really, really lucky to be able to work alongside Caz for so long and get to just see how he works every single day based on what he's learning.

It's been a real, really, really great thing to be a part of. I completely agree. I think it's working more as a team. Yeah, it's definitely more team than being individuals.

You are growing together when Michaela's learning, I'm learning. When I'm learning, Michaela's learning. She's not taking full credit and speed for everything that she's gone and done. It it's a team effort together, like she wants me to grow, as Kaz wants you to grow.

And no one's a perfect at what they do, so it's nice that they want us to grow and learn from their mistakes as well, which is also good. And we're learning we deal with so many different licenses and jurisdictions. So you do have to learn lots of different aspects of that, don't you? Yeah.

And not we're only human, we can't remember everything. Whereas so working alongside like our advisors, both of them, are very good at helping us remember things as well. Like they don't say you you're meant to know all of this. Yeah, they'll work with us to make sure that we're all learning and remembering the steps and implementing them into our business.

I think it works vice versa as well, where obviously with Michaela, for example, like where she started a family and stuff this year, she's obviously not been working as much, so you've taken on more responsibility in that regard, and you not necessarily have to teach her things, but things do change in this course of nine months. Things are completely different than they might have been a year ago. So having that relationship where it's not a case of, oh, well, you didn't know this, so we didn't do it.

It's well, okay, this is what's happened, this is what we should do. Should we speak to these clients about this, or how do we use this new bit of information to make things better for certain people? Like having that teamwork is really, really important so that they can also have a life. Like they've spent a decade or however long building a book of business.

They also should be able to go on a holiday and go to a watch their kids do a play at school and know that they can do that and things are not going to fall apart just because they take a week off work, for example. Yeah. Oh I I feel that you know, a lot of what you guys are saying is about the depth of the relationship, and that's that's not a given. Like the depth of the relationship that you have with your advisor has been built up over time, and the fact that you guys have been doing this for a long period of time now means that you can have the client conversations, you can be exposed to that stuff.

You are trusted, you know, as as you know, junior advisors, essentially, we call it paraplanners, but that's what it is. It's you know, it's working alongside working alongside the the financial planner. But that doesn't that that's that's not just a you're in the business for six months, here you go. You know, what what you guys have done is have given it time to get to where you need to go.

And I think that that's where a lot of people fall short as well, is that they don't give things enough time. You'll never like they want everything now, they want everything within the first six months. They want to be, you know, like there's no way that that would ever happen. You can't like expose clients to someone who has been advising for two seconds.

It's just not it takes time to build up. Um, and that's what I've noticed about you know paraplanners coming through previously, is they were so eager to you know to do it, which is fantastic, you know, don't want to c curb that, but at the same time, four years, five years, that's a long time. But you both didn't start off as power planners, so obviously you both started off in in the business development side of the business and quickly found that that wasn't for you. I mean, we bring most of the new people into our business through business development, and that's not saying that you should try and join and hope you get put somewhere else.

Um, but it was very apparent that that wasn't right for you guys. Um, and again, you know, I'd like to talk a bit about at no point was it oh sorry poor me, you know, I'm like you know, it was a this isn't working. What else can I do and how can I make this work? So talk talk to me a little bit about that.

Um, I mean, from my perspective, I feel like it was I gave it a good go. I think I gave it a good like nine, nine months or so. Yep, yeah. Um, and I think where it was able to move from that to a new role, there was a like a loss of so many different factors, right?

Like I came out here straight from uni. This was working as a business development, that was my first ever real job. So I didn't know a single thing when I started doing it. I'm sure there were times where I was doing things that people were like, what on earth is she doing?

Like, this is not this is not what you're supposed to do in a job, but I had no idea, right? So I I gave it a good go. I would be in the office early, sit there late, even if I wasn't managing to get the thing, I was at least trying, right? I was trying to learn, I would sit on all the training sessions and all the information about what I needed to know was going in, and I knew it.

Just the execution for me wasn't there, and I think that was part of where Kaz said, okay, well, you're clearly understanding what it is you're supposed to be doing. It's just for some reason it's just not quite adding up. So let's see what we can do. It it was partly good, great timing.

There happened to be a role that he thought would suit me within his team, but that was only there because I'd spent the last sort of four or five months working with him. So he had seen that I was really, really trying and I really wanted to do well. It was just a case of finding where my specific skills were gonna work best, and then we kind of dove straight in to be fair. Once he once we'd come to a conclusion together that the the BD thing, like I could give it another six months, but was it really gonna work?

Yeah, I was putting 110% in as I as it was. There was no nothing more that I could have done. It was okay, well, then let's just dive straight into this role. I feel like you're gonna be good for it.

A lot of it was directed by him, I have to say, and that's part of again, I know it's not a given, but building that relationship, he felt confident enough that he was willing to risk having someone do this job that might not be good at it, and then we've just never really looked back since. To be honest, it was a matchmade in heaven. Well, yeah, at times. And what about yourself, Annie?

Um, I definitely wasn't strong enough to do that role. Like, I am more a relationship person. You think that's unfair? You're not not strong enough, it just wasn't suited to your personality.

Yeah, I just think I couldn't get through to clients like they because I couldn't put my personality across. Like, I much prefer to sit and have an in-depth conversation with somebody. Yeah, and that's just my strength. Like, I love having a conversation.

I think when obviously we want to go into the women thing, I think women are a lot more emotionally intelligent, and I think that really works in our role now, but didn't work in my other role, and you do have to be very resilient and very resilient. Obviously, we've both moved abroad. Yeah, it's just I like to have that more one-on-one, and that's where it didn't work for me, and I knew it didn't work for me. Like, I knew that I loved working more closely with clients, um, having more in-depth conversations, and then yeah, that's when I approached, I think, yourself and sat down and we looked into a different route that suited my skills.

Yeah, and not look back either. Definitely not, no, like I absolutely love working alongside Michaela, and Michaela does have the different skills to me. Like, yeah, yes, she's uh amazing at building rapport, amazing with clients. She's definitely got that emotional intelligence being a female, but she's such a strong saleswoman as well, and that is so important to have to be able to be able to have nice good conversations with clients, but in such a such a way that they can see they she's being heard by them, like they're being heard by her, and yeah, vice versa.

So yeah, we work well alongside each other. You definitely do. And the exams that you guys have sat as well is is another key factor of your success so far as well, is you know, obviously it's not a profession where you can just coast along and not you know not really do if you want to progress, not not do, you know, not do a lot of exams, especially as as a as a planner as an and as an advisor. So you've both gone different routes though, which has been very interesting.

So G, I know that you are currently very close to finishing your Australian exams. So maybe you can tell us a bit about them first, and you know, because this this is a slog, like these Australian exams, these are no joke, are they? Yeah, it's been a it's actually been a lot quicker than expected, to be fair. I think we're at what the 18 month mark there were thereabouts.

Um there's been a few, there's been a few sessions of doubling up and tripping up and just getting it done. But yeah, it's been a full, full eight module degree. Um Wow. Which has actually been really at first I kind of I was happy to do it.

Obviously, it it's a great opportunity, but at first I thought, oh god, this is gonna be horrendous. Like some of the stuff I'm not gonna need to know because what we do in Australia isn't necessarily covering off everything the degree covers off. You know, we work internationally, I can't be an an expert in every single product that's available in every place. So I kind of thought, is it gonna be a little bit of I'm just kind of doing things for the sake of doing them?

And then actually, I remember the first one I ever did. I remember coming into you and saying, Did you know this, this, and this? Yeah, yeah. We're not doing like we we could do this, or this is another opportunity that we could be doing.

And it's actually been really, really job. It's been amazing. I really enjoyed it. It's been a slog.

There have been months where I've literally it's because it's a lot of coursework. So I'm very much an exam person. I like to the memorising and understanding and then doing it, and then it's over. Walking out of there, not sort of thinking about it again until I know whether I've passed or failed.

The coursework has been a slog, it's long. There's a lot of things to remember, a lot of things to do. When you've been out of uni for a little while, referencing and all of that kind of stuff, like it completely you completely you think you're never gonna have to do it again, and then suddenly I'm right back in the thick of it. But it's been really, really good.

It's been long. Um, we have sped it up a little bit just to meet the deadline. So there's been a few summer periods where it's been Intense. It's been pretty intense.

I think I've been uh a little bit irritable and stuff at times trying to it's been days in the office where I'm like, don't talk to me. I've got course recording today and it's not finished yet. But it's been good. I've uh you can see on on the sort of result slip they give you, the even just how much more effort and time I've been putting into it since the first one.

The first one was very much slapdash, like get it done and see how I did. And then ever since then, it's just been getting better and better. The marks are it's been going really well. So I'm I'm excited to get it finished and be able to actually start fully giving advice on my own in Australia.

It's amazing, isn't it? Like, and you know, you've done that whilst working as well. Obviously, flexibility around being able to do it, you know, you've had periods where you need to revise and study and obviously fitted that in. But whilst an 18-month eight-course um, you know, uh period that's intense and working as well.

I mean, that's you know, hats off to you, and that takes dedication and discipline. Thank you. It's been good. I'm excited to have it done though.

I can't lie and get back to not having to think about course on the weekends. I'm super proud that you'll be the first person that has done those exams in our business. Yeah, it will be hopefully. You know, I'm sure some more people will start taking on after they've they've let me be the test run and see how hard it gets for them.

I'll suddenly be getting messages. Have you got your study notes? It'll be good. I'm I'm excited, it's uh sort of a new a new adventure for next year.

So 100% new opportunity, and I need you. Um so I'm UK qualified, so I've done all my CISI exams and European qualified as well. So done SISEC. How did you find them?

UK was really difficult. Um Okay. Um not really the first there was a couple of them that were fine. Financial planning, really enjoyed that, ethics and regulations, I really enjoyed that.

I actually found that the easiest coming from that NatWest. Yeah, okay. Obviously, you're just drummed into you from the beginning, isn't it? Regulation and everything.

Um, but investment risk and tax was definitely a new challenge for for me. But I learned so much from it, I'm now really confident when it comes to talking about those elements. So it's definitely grown my knowledge and helped, especially if you take in what you're reading. Um, you can really learn a lot from it.

And then SciSec was good. Um, it was a nice, not easy exam, but it was an It's a hundred multiple choice questions. Yeah, it was a it's a well-worded exam to be able to and and it links on nicely with with UK as well, especially where it talks a lot about regulations and looking after clients. So yeah, regulated there now as well.

And was Rebecca, did Rebecca help you with any of your your exams? Yeah, so she actually helped me with investment risk and tax for the CISI. Amazing. Um which really helped as well just to make sure I was focused on the right areas.

Um she's been brilliant. And she also's so handy to just be able to pop in and have a conversation with because she's so knowledgeable in taking exams. So it might not even be what the content, it's what you do when you go in there. Yeah.

How are you gonna sit down and go through the multiple choice that feels comfortable? And she actually gave me some really good tips when I go in and do them. Um so I'm not panicking because I definitely overthink um my exams, I worry about them. But she was helpful and she helped with my Europe as well, and she's now helping me go on to do series 65.

So the US license. Yeah. So that's so Rebecca, for those uh people that don't know who Rebecca is, because you probably wouldn't. So Rebecca's our in-house uh exams trainer and she comes in.

Is it twice a week or is it three times a week? I have every day I feel like she's in the office uh studying with a with a group. Yeah, she's so she's she's in a lot. I think even if like you couldn't do one day, she would make the time to come in and do an hour session with you if you needed.

She's uh she's amazing, and the people in the business will come in um and sit with her during during obviously work time uh and study towards their exams. She gives people practice questions and things like that to take away, which obviously helps is most of these exams is questions, questions, questions, questions. The more you do, the the easier it gets. But the series 65, I think that's 140 multiple choice questions, which is a tough one.

Um it's like the three UK exams put into one. You've got to remember in one sitting, yeah, and then you've got to learn new terms. Obviously, we're all UK-based or have started our careers there. So now to learn new um words and annotations, like in US, what they would call clients or what they would call stocks, and all of that is very different.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get it's the it's the terminology that throws you because with a lot of the terminology, it's counterintuitive to what you remember it as. So, like it'll mean one thing there, and then it'll mean a different thing in that jurisdiction as well. Are you gonna do any more exams after this, George?

Are you gonna give it a bit of a break? Because obviously you're uh recently engaged as well. Many congratulations. Thank you.

Um, no, I think I will. I I think the I'm on a bit of a roll of spending time doing it, so I as much as I would like to take a break, I'm sure I'll take a short break, but I kind of want to get everything I can out of the way, and then I can start working out. I want to get it all done before I'm a fully fledged advisor out on my own, so that I can decide I've got the the pick of my jurisdictions and I can work out what works best for me and where I like best. Then it's it's more so that no one advisor can really, in my opinion, only successfully be Australia, European, US, and UK all in one go.

You can have clients that are dotted around, but everyone will have a focus. 100%. It's more so about okay, if I've got a client in Europe, I might not focus on US work, but I'm qualified. If they've got US assets they need help with, I can also help with that.

Means that I can actually provide advice everywhere as opposed to doing it so that I can be advising everywhere. So I think I'll start getting through them. Probably UK, I started my UK before. For the degree, and then put that on the back burner whilst I get this done.

So I'll I'll get my UK done first and then we'll go from there through the rest of them. Nice. And you're obviously doing your 265 as well, which is which is great. I was actually we just I was speaking to Faye, um, so she's a chartered uh financial planner um within uh within our business, and she was saying the importance of getting the exams done now, because like later on in your career, you start having kids, you get married, like all of these things take hold and it then starts to become very difficult.

So the sooner you can get it done, the better. Because obviously that offers a lot of flexibility later as well. So let's talk about flexibility a bit as well, because I know you know both of you aren't in the office all day, every day. Um Annie, I know you you work from home uh a fair bit, and gee, I know that you were in most days, but then there's obviously the odd day probably when you when you don't need to be around the noise of the boys behind you.

Um, you know, how how do you find flexibility? How do you how do you manage your workload with the flexibility? I um personally love it. Like I find it helps me.

I work much better at home on my own, headphones on focusing because I do love to have chats and conversations, which I think is so important when you are in the office because you do need to build on stakeholder relationships and bits and pieces like that when you're there. But when I'm at home, I do focus, and where we do work with clients from all over the world, time zones is also important. 100%. So I do start when I'm at home, I will start at 5 a.

m. because it is easier to be able to do that sometimes, um, or I'll be able to work a little bit later. So it does help where we're international planners, it does help to have that flexibility because your day could be so early or so late, depending on where your clients are based. Yeah.

Um, I'm also lucky that I get to go and work at Michaela's as well at her house, which is really nice to be able to do that with her. Um, where she's obviously just had a little go, it's much nicer for her to be able to have the flexibility of working where she needs to as well to suit her family. So I can also fit in as well. Nice, which is good.

Good. Yeah, I don't I personally quite enjoy going to the office. I quite like the noise and being around people, and I find that where Kaz really enjoys his flexibility, probably a lot more so than I do. So where he often won't be in the office, whether that's because he's doing a school run or whatever the reason might be, I feel like me being in the office is always a lot more helpful.

It means that I can talk to people if I need help on something, or if I'm having an admin issue, I can go and speak to the the admin team and say, What do I do with this? And I feel like people are always a lot more approachable in person than they are on Teams or on email, or it's more difficult to get hold of someone, you know, sort of waiting until they've got five minutes free. Whereas I can walk over and speak to someone in person. I prefer doing that, and I I'm someone who probably does ask quite a lot of questions to a lot of different people, especially where we do business literally everywhere.

I might not know the answer to a question, but Declan might know the answer to a US question or Avi, or you know, there's anyone in the office who I might be like, that person would be really great to ask on this. So I do find it really valuable being in the office, but the caveat to that is that where we do have tasks to do, like, you know, annual reviews or all of these kind of things, if I've got 10 annual reviews to do, I'd much rather sit at home in the silence and just knock them out and then go to work the next day.

So having the flexibility to sort of manage my week how I see best. If I'm gonna be in the office on a Monday, great. Those tasks are gonna be done on Tuesday or Wednesday, and I'll do X, Y, and Z tasks today because it's gonna be better for me to do it in the office. So I think that's more so for me having the flexibility to decide what I do and where I do it, as opposed to just sitting at my desk every day and having to get things done.

Because also we people flit in and out, you know, there's people that work remotely that maybe come in once a week and or once a month, and you don't see them very often, and they turn up to the office and you spend 20 minutes having a conversation and you think, God, if you'd had something really important to do that day, yeah, you you do you like, you know, we worked really closely together, some of us. So when you see someone you've not seen for ages, you do want to have a catch-up and have a coffee or whatever.

So I think it's important to also acknowledge that you probably have to sometimes take a little bit of time in a more quiet space and be able to focus. Yeah, 100%. I think but the other thing I think that's key as well is that both your flexibility has been earned through time in, like you develop those relationships that you talked about, you know, like when you first started, both of you were in first two years all day, every day, starting early, finishing late, and those stakeholder relationships that you were referring to, Annie, had been built, you know, during that period.

Now you are established senior people within the business. If you come in, you know, that those relationships are there. If you do need to team someone to get an answer, that they are there. But I I'm with you, uh G as well, is that I quite like the buzz of the office and I quite like being around that.

But I'm also very fortunate that I can go to my office and shut my door and then now I'm away from it. So I do get that kind of you know, that that kind of being on your own part as well, which um which obviously is important if you've got focused work or calls that you need to do, then it's nice not to have to hustle and bustle necessarily around you as much. Yeah, but at the same time, it's like it's knowing what your personality is and where that fits in, but also knowing that when you first start, that that is not a g it's not you're not gonna get it.

You have to earn it and it's a given. But you shouldn't also be given it, you need to learn. Being in the office every day is so important in the beginning of your journey and career because there is so much that you don't know. Yeah, even now I we don't know everything.

Like I'll go in on certain days because I know those days I'm gonna book meetings, I'm gonna sit with people and ask them questions. Um because I'm not I don't know everything, no one's ever gonna know everything. So you don't, every day's a school day, exactly, and that's why I do think it's important to go in every single day in the beginning to learn, to get to know people, to make yourself known as well, so that people are willing to help you. Um we are also smaller teams, like you're a smaller team with Kaz, and I'm a smaller team with Michaela, so Georgia doesn't need to help me because it's not her business, yeah, but she wants to help me because we've built a friendship and we've helped each other where we need to.

So I do think that's important. And also I'd like to feel as well that that's kind of like the general environment of the business as well. Like it's like you can go to pretty much anyone and ask for help. I know I've worked in environments before where it's you versus me.

So you know, so if you're winning, I'm not, and that's not a nice atmosphere to work in either. Like you all want to win and you all want to rise each other. Um which obviously, look, you know, some of the some of the things that we put on for the staff, like obviously France recently that we had, um obviously Georgia, you went to that. Annie, I know you were super, super close uh for that as well.

But you know, the whole point of them is to rise everyone up, you know, paraplanners, advisors, admin, people from the tech team, you know, it's it's like a it's like a collective effort to to bring everyone up. And I feel like having that competition and also, you know, those rewards in place help, you know, help help you go on as well. Massively. I think for us though, as well, where our roles are technically the same role, but so different that you couldn't even pit yourselves against someone if you wanted to, because there's so there's so we do such we can some days we can have the exact same day, yeah, and some days we can have days that are so completely different that I there's a million things that I don't know that Annie knows, like the back of and there's some things that Annie doesn't know that I know.

There's just if you were going to be in competition with each other, you'd never be successful because definitely not. You'd struggle to find people to help you out when you you do come across cases that are new, or you know, it's important to build these relationships and want to help each other, and that's what I do love about Hoxton. Yeah, I must say that like moving abroad, I think, is a very difficult thing to do. Yeah.

But move moving abroad and then working for Hoxton, yes, of course, work is hard in the beginning. You're learning, you're building friendships, but Hoxton was a really safe space to go into, and I think you're agreeing with that. Like, we've built really good friendships and made some really good memories because people are so welcoming. I know that you've always had this value that you want good people to work for.

No ego, yeah, no ego. Um, and I must say, like, I do enjoy that about coming into the office. Like, there are some really lovely people, and then maybe some not so great people that haven't lasted because they haven't been able to build the relationships that they should have invested in. Yeah, um, and that's what I find easy about like coming into work and well, I don't mind coming to the office.

I obviously just prefer getting my work done at home. Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. I mean, and that's that's that's the thing, isn't it? I think that we've got a bit of a reputation as as a firm as being kind of like a pressure cooker, like you know, it's like pitting against people, and you know, like it's only the strong survive and all the rest of this stuff, and that that's just not true.

No, it's you know, it's factually incorrect. I I would like to think anyway. I think that people who are driven and ambitious, hopefully it's a place where you can thrive and you can do really well. Um, but at the same time, there's no one with a you know, there's no one with uh a uh a watch sat at the door going, What what you know what time is this, or what you know, calling you up the moment you're not in the office, where are you?

It just that's just not a thing. No, and that's important, I think, that you want to feel welcomed into work and yeah, but also you do need people to work, and we're humans, we in we work to be rewarded, whether it be by pay, whether it be for some form of incentive or something like that. We we work for a reward. Yeah, of course, and but being rewarded is fantastic, yeah.

You do need to work for it. Um, you definitely need to put the the effort in um to be able to seek those rewards. 100%. It's not a given, is it?

You don't like you can't just naturally wake and walk out of bed and be successful, and it's your God given right to get everything underneath the sun. Which again, like I I kind of keep bringing it back to that, but you two have demonstrated through time in that you know you you were there, you're putting in the hours, you get the rewards out of it, be that flexibility, be that you know, uh, you know, coming on trips, be that what you know, be that pay, whatever it is. But no, no business would not have that element.

No. So you're where wherever you are in finance, anywhere in whichever job, there's KPIs in place. So people still have goals. It's just that they could be different.

Different goals, yeah. Different goals, different different ways. Yeah, 100%. And how how do you guys find being um women in the international financial uh in the international financial world?

Because again, it is very, very male heavy. Um, there are a lot of men in our business and generally in the profession. So, how do you find it operating? Do you find it see as a challenge?

Do you see it as an opportunity? What does it actually mean for you? I think I said this when I was on the podcast before with Casda. I I personally haven't felt like it's been a barrier to anything for me.

Um from the the bigger picture, you obviously do look around the room and you think, God, there's a lot of men in here and not a lot of women. That's kind of part and parcel of it. I think sometimes the roles aren't necessarily attracting a lot of women to them in in general. It's not so much that they're not getting picked, they might just not be there.

We've also been very lucky where we've made relationships in the industry with other people. We've met some wonderful female financial planners that don't necessarily work for Hoxton but are very successful and are very good at what they do and are open to having conversations about how they do what they do. And I've seen them build teams around them that are very, very successful. So whilst there might not be loads of us, those of us that you do see, in my opinion, tend to be more successful, then you don't tend to find mediocre women doing this job.

If they're doing it, they're doing it incredibly well. So we might be less, but probably the quality is a lot better than some other people you might meet there. I mean, Michaela's a great example, Jess is a great example, Faye. We've got great, we've got a great group of women in the UK actually, which I think sometimes we probably forget because we don't see them on a day-to-day basis.

There's a lot of amazing women that work at Hox and that are often just based in the UK, so we don't get to interact with them. But the parapanners in the UK, a lot of them are female, they're brilliant at what they do, all the interactions I have with them are fantastic. I don't think it makes too much difference on how successful you can be if you're willing to put the work in. I think that maybe if you walk into the room, it can look a little bit scary.

But if you're willing to put in the same work as any man in the room, I don't think there's any detriment to you being a female at all. I I agree. I don't think it's ever been a hurdle for me being a woman. I've started working in a bank when I was 21 years old, and I had a fantastic female manager when I was there, and I absolutely loved like looking up to her, but we are few, we're few and far between, and it's sometimes difficult to be able to, maybe for young girls looking up, like what is the career for them?

So this is why it's nice for us to have these conversations so that I don't know, our younger nieces or younger daughters, they they can actually look up and say, Oh, there is a career, because you're kind of regimented when you go from school to college to university of what the career routes are. I didn't really learn about this career until a lot later on in my life and found that actually financial advising is just having amazing conversations with clients and learning about them and working out plans to make their lives and futures better.

Yeah. But it doesn't, it wasn't ever worded like that when I was younger. And I think that's where it's important. I think that's what I do love about Hoxton as well.

Like there is a lot of women, and you're willing to bring in that flexibility as females, but we may prefer more to some men. I know that Kaz enjoys it because he needs that be at school pickups and things like that, but you might not necessarily need as much flexibility as like we would need, for example, if you're focusing on building a business. So where you've developed new roles or grown our roles so that it we can fit in, I think that's important, like what Faye was talking about previously as well in her podcast.

She said that split day massively helps her to build on her career. Not many companies, um, firms offer that. Um, so I think that's where it's important. I don't think it's a challenge being a woman in finance, I think it's a challenge finding the right firm for you as a woman.

And I think if more financial advisory firms or banks or anything learned from that and built from that, a lot more women would come into the industry because there would be that flexibility, there would be that welcome. Like women are great to have in the business. 100%. Um, they bring something different as men, you need that, you need those different personalities, you need those different genders to be able to have different conversations.

Um hundred percent. I think it's it's it's kind of I it's it's not uh it is it is interesting because we have had so we're obviously running our new trainee wealth manager course at the moment where we you know bring people into the business and put them through the pathway programme. Out of the out of the 50 that have applied, how many do you think are women? It'll be single digits.

I'd say one or two. Five. Yeah. Which is great.

So it's not even a case of it's not like open, it's just that not even uh, you know, it's like women aren't even applying for the role. Um maybe it's because they feel that the role is not for them. Um I I don't know, but maybe you know, I think there's obviously key differentiators, but where we do see um a lot of women applying for the role is more in the service inside. So as we build out that side of the business, I'm hoping that we can I'm hoping that we can attract a lot more women into into that part of the business because it seems you know that kind of emotional intelligence empathy thing that you were talking about before is much more natural.

Probably feels more stable as well, yeah. You're probably right. Stability is a big thing. I know for me personally as a female, like I love stability, yeah.

Whereas my partner could he he could quit his job and not worry, whereas I couldn't ever do that. You there's a lot more um what would the word be? You need certainty, yeah. Yeah, I need certainty, I need to know what's coming every month, I need to know what my plan is, but that's just I don't know.

I suppose us as future, we plan five years ahead, don't we? We do those five-year plans, we've got our journals and things like that, whereas a man can be a maybe a little bit more spontaneous. Yeah. Um it's different, it's different people though, isn't it?

Different, different, different people react differently to different things. I also feel that hopefully it's kind of like as we grow as a business, it starts to prove that we are able to, you know, able to provide that supportive environment as well. So, you know, the not fear of losing your clients, the not fear of losing your book if you go on maternity, the ability for it to come back. Because now, hopefully, when that happens to you guys, that you've seen that happen if you want that.

Yeah. Um, you know, you've seen that Michaela, it wasn't kind of right, well, you can't be dealing with them all shift off. Um, you know, she it was available and the flexibility is there with someone like Faye, um, you know, who does you know different uh different hours to most people because she needs to be there to pick her kids up from school. Son's got special needs, you know, and needs to be there to support.

So hopefully it's like that stuff starts to become, you know, you can it's very easy to say, but it's a different thing to see, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think you have to, I mean, listen to us too um and and put the work in. Put the work in, want want the it to be something, want the career from it, because it can be you can be very successful.

Like Michaela, after 17 years, runs a brilliant book, like she worked, has worked really hard for that. So that now she can not slow down because she definitely doesn't, but she can take a step back and go on maternity and look after her daughter and go to those events with with her daughter and not have to worry because she's d put her work in. Um, I think that's the same in any family. I think it's the same as a man or a woman.

Like you have to put in the effort when you're young, especially like through your 20s, work hard, and then hopefully in 10-15 years, you get to a point where you can reap the rewards of your hard work. Exactly, and also build that support team around you as well. Like you can't do that if you don't have great people around you. So you need to build out your team, you need to have great people in the business, and then be in that supportive environment that enables that to happen as well.

You know, like it's it's important to choose that. Yeah, I think probably the main thing is it's about giving as much as you you want to get out of something. It's all well and good walking in somewhere and expecting that you want flexibility and you want all these things, but if you're not willing to give 110%, then why would anyone give you that back? You know, everyone's paid a salary to do a job, right?

That's the that's the baseline. If if you just want that and you don't want anything else, then that's absolutely fine. Show up for work, do your hours and go home. No one's gonna tell you you're doing something wrong for doing that, but you can't expect to reap the rewards if you're not willing to put the time and energy in, especially probably in this job more than anything else, where we work for someone's business, it's not just a case of I'm sitting at my desk until for an extra hour a day.

It's that I'm putting an extra hour and a half into someone's business that they've built. They need to see that you're willing to put that that time and effort in. Yeah. And then, you know, on the back end, exactly.

On the back end, you know, when I want to step out on my own and be an advisor, I hope and and I expect at this point that that Kaz would support me doing that, because I've supported him for the last four years in making sure that he's successful. 100%. So that segues nicely into my kind of where are we going? You know, like what what does the, you know, what's the next rung up the ladder?

You you two are both extremely ambitious, very successful so far, working really hard to get to where you want to be. Obviously, it's not right, oh you know, kind of that's it now, you know, uh with where you're at. Where do you want to get to? What what what does that look like for you?

I think for me that looks like stepping out on my own, probably in the next in the next couple of years. We're not gonna put we're not gonna put a hard stop on it because it's uh things come up, you know. There's a million and one things that might happen, and you might suddenly decide that actually right now isn't the time to step solely into a new role, but we're moving towards that. I'm having a lot more solo conversations, and we're sort of starting to build the foundations for for when I can do that.

So I think once Australia's done, that's the first step in stone. I'll be able to start building my book there, and then we we work from there until what an area to build up in as well. What look fantastic, especially with the all the changes going on. That the number of planners over there is yeah, is quite small, and I I don't know many people in the international space that are taking on the the degree and it's not and the demand hasn't got less.

Exactly. If anything, it it seems to just doubled get more and more. We get more and more inquiries all the time. So it's a good place to start, I think, and then we go from there, see what the next the next few years are gonna be busy anyway.

So uh we won't get too excited on on jumping for the moon just yet, but yeah, that's what we're looking at. I mean that's a big step. It is it's the next natural progression, and it's you know, I'm sure you're gonna Do uh amazingly well at it. It's a bit scary as well.

It's one of those. You've got support. Yeah, you know you've got so much support around you who will help you that yeah, no, you it's one of those things you have to take the next step. It's just where you spend three and a half years getting comfortable in a job so that you can kind of do it with your eyes closed.

But then you're not, you wouldn't be happy. No, of course not. But it's we just get itchy feet. Yeah.

Leaving that safety net is it's a big step, right? It's feeling comfortable to do it takes a takes a long time. But I think with the support it that's already in place, it's it's kind of an easy step to take once you once you get through it in your own head and you're like, okay, it's ready to ready to go. Then cows won't push you to do it until you're ready either, which is nice.

There's no forcefulness of like you've got you've got to step up now. Yeah. There's no force for that, um, which is nice. It's a slow, yeah.

I mean, we have to find all the the right bits and pieces to fix it anyway. I need to find a replacement for myself and someone who's ready to take on the job that I've been doing before. Yeah, I can do that. So that's kind of where we're at at the moment.

Getting out of your comfort zone, yeah, for sure. Which obviously you're not in. I'm not saying that, but you know, ultimately it's like you're good, it's the next it's the next one. Yeah, it's about pushing yourself because there's only so far you can go in in one role, right?

You can't be like the super power panel for the there's only so much so much. You could if you really wanted to, but yeah, you know, you know, you I I get what you mean. I get it's like the neck, it's a natural progression. Yeah, but it's it's exciting.

I'm looking forward to it. It'll be nice when I can start putting my name on my own reports. Yeah, it will be. Exciting times.

And for yourself, Annie? Um I want to move more into client servicing. Yes. I love that side of our business.

Um, I love rapport building, I love making sure that we keep hold of our clients um and them feeling looked after. Yes. I came from relationship management, so I definitely think it's where I thrived the most. Um, and even where I looked after Michaela's book while she was away, that was definitely the element that I loved the most as well.

Yeah. Um, having those one-on-one conversations, finding out where they're going on holiday and things like that, and looking at what more we can do to build plans. Yeah, I think where I'm very analytical myself, it also is a nice way of we we know where we're at, but what more can we do? What more can I analyse and build on those relationships as well?

Awesome. I think you're gonna be amazing in that role. Thank you. Um, and I know that there's an area that you're particularly good at, and I know there's a lot of opportunity coming up in that area as well, so it's uh perfect timing.

And again, you guys are putting the hard work, you've gone and got your exams, you've gone and done all the bits that you needed to do. There should be no reason for us to, you know, as a business turn around and go, no, sorry, you know, like that's just not gonna happen, clearly. Um, you guys are put in the work, and that's one of the rewards that come out of it is the constant progression and that constant growth mindset. Um, well, that was amazing.

I appreciate you guys taking the time out of your busy days uh to come and sit with me for an hour and talk and hopefully help some other people who are looking to uh get into the professional, looking to work with us. Um so thank you very much, and I'm sure we'll do another one very, very soon. Uh so thank you very much for your time, and I hope all those that are listening enjoyed. Thank you, thank you very much.