How Employee-Owned Companies Thrive featuring Bob Whalen

Bob Whalen: I think you've gotta care about other people. We all run into the, the folks that you know, they just care about themselves and they see a world in a lens where it's finite and they're trying to get their piece of the pie. If you want to be a leader, you really gotta be focused on the other guy. That doesn't mean that I don't want my incentives aligned, but I think it starts with caring about, you know, making other people's lives better.

Kate Volman: I am so excited about this episode because I am joined by Bob Whalen, president and CEO of HB Global, one of the largest employee-owned mechanical contracting companies in the nation. Bob is passionate about creating cultures where people feel valued. He's made it his mission to advocate for employee ownership as a powerful way to transform both businesses and lives. Kate Volman: We're talking leadership lessons, the benefit of employee ownership, and how it changes the way people show up to work.

If you are curious about what it takes to build a thriving organization where people feel connected, engaged, and inspired, you are in the right place. Bob, thank you so much for joining us today. Bob Whalen: Kate, thanks for having me, and thanks for doing this because one of the biggest things with employee ownership is it's just not well known by the public, and so the more we can get the word out on the value of employee ownership and what employee owned companies are doing, you know, I think the better off we are as a society.

Bob Whalen: So thank you for doing this. Kate Volman: I'm so excited because I've learned a lot about employee ownership since working at Floyd because. We have quite a few companies that are ESOPs, that are member, that are, that have implemented The Dream Manager or that we work with. And so it's been really fascinating and cool to watch organizations, some who came to us and they were already in ESOP and some we got to go, we got to watch, go through the process of becoming one.

Kate Volman: So I think it's really interesting and I really appreciate leaders who. Obviously we work with people who are valuing their people, and you're so passionate about that. So why, why is it so important for you to, to spread the word, to let more leaders know about this being a, a really great option to help grow your business? Bob Whalen: Well, I, I think like so many other folks, when, when I started my career, it was a lot about me.

You know, there was things I wanted to accomplish. I had goals and all of that. And I think as I just got further and further in my career. You know, I think I started to appreciate helping others get to where they wanted to be.

Bob Whalen: And even our ESOP journey did not start out with really being focused on our employee owners. You know, it happened in 2008 when we were in recession and didn't know it, and I was trying to, you know, complete an ownership transition. And it did align with the culture that I was trying to create at HB McClure, but it really started with solving that problem. Bob Whalen: And over time of being an ESOP, you just could see more and more of the impact to where, you know, it's evolved into being my professional mission.

It's what I do. I, you know, once a year we get the new values for all of our employee owners and it's like my Christmas. I literally cannot wait for that day. Bob Whalen: I get this spreadsheet and I see the value we've created for everybody, you know, over the last year.

And it's just so exciting. And ironically enough, we just closed out our 15th year yesterday, so we're starting our 16th year being an ESOP today. And so we'll start the process of valuing our company for September 30th, and I get, you know, a day closer each day to my Christmas, which is seeing, you know, the new employee owners that are millionaires, which is really what we kind of established, which is our goal for our businesses. Bob Whalen: You know, for the employees that spend a career with us, we want to create millionaires.

And it sounds like a big deal. And it's not a small thing, but if we do the right things day in and day out and year in and year out for a career, we'll do that. And oh, by the way, a million dollars only really produces about 40 to $50,000 a year in in retirement resources. Bob Whalen: And so we have to do it if we wanna accomplish our goals of our employees being able to keep their same standard of living and retirement as they have while they were working.

So it's just a lot of fun and I get a lot of joy. You know, out of what I do and it just, I think he gives me something outside of myself to work for and, and I think those of us that find that, you know, really realize that's where true fulfillment comes from. Kate Volman: Aw, I love that. What do you feel when you're talking to some leaders who are either resistant to it or they question actually doing this in their company?

What are some of the hesitations? What are some of the things that, what are the, what does those conversations look like? Bob Whalen: Well, I think people are just bombarded by our society of, you know, what you're really shooting for. Bob Whalen: And I think business owners are bombarded with getting liquidity for themselves, you know, exits, you know, and making great sums of money.

And then you hear the stories about, you know, they achieved all that and it was relatively hollow. I just think I was lucky enough to realize. That you could get great joy by focusing your career on doing great things for the people you know that are working. Bob Whalen: When we share what we create, you know, we do it both through the ESOP plan as well as, you know, when we're financially successful in a year, we bonus everybody that participated in that success.

And so, you know, I think you see that, you get great joy from that, and I've kind of learned over my lifetime, people will either be open to these ideas, you know, or they. Bob Whalen: And, and so the idea resonates greatly for the people that you know, that these things are important to them. For others it's not. And you know, I wish 'em the best of luck and you know, it's not the only way.

I never purport that employee ownership is the only way to run a company. It's just the way we're gonna run our company and we're gonna focus on our mission being what you know, we want to accomplish. Bob Whalen: And that's centered around our employees. And we think that makes for better families, better communities, you know, really a better society when we all share and what we create and everybody's valued.

You know, it's a big part. You know, this, this also sounds a lot like it's all financial, you know, but one of the things I think employee ownership does is it's a concrete way for us to show that we respect every single person's role. Bob Whalen: I don't care what your role is in our company, you wouldn't be here if we didn't need you to do it. And it's a way for us to show that your value.

And you know, that's what we try to do and we try to align all of our actions to that. And we align everything we do with our mission, vision, and core values. Bob Whalen: And I think that gives people a language when they think something isn't going in line with that. It gives 'em a language to talk to us about it.

And we want them to, you know, we want to have a dialogue with our employee owners. About what's going right and what's not going right and what could we do better. Bob Whalen: And you know, I view it as my job to explain the why behind why we do things. You, in the end, may not agree with us about why we do certain things that we do in our business, but I absolutely believe it's part of my job.

To explain to our employee owners why we do it. And so then they can make for a choice for themselves of whether this is something that they want to be part of or not. Bob Whalen: They're not indentured servants. You know, there's plenty of data out there in the world now that you can make a good choice about who you wanna work for, and I wanna align every single thing that we do to be in line with what we say we're gonna do.

So when people make a choice. To work for us. They want to be here and they wanna be part of what we're trying to do. Kate Volman: What does that look like with your team members and for attracting people?

I assume, you know, some people it's very attractive to work for an employee owned company. So what does that look like as far as the people that are there currently and then bringing people on board that you really wanna see in the organization? Bob Whalen: Well, the one thing I would say, and I say to our executive team all the time. If you're gonna be marketing a message that's built around caring about your people and doing what's right by your people, you damn well better align your actions with that.

Because, you know, they, a lot of people don't start out really having a highly trusting relationship with their employer. Bob Whalen: And I hear this from sellers all the time. People that have sold their business to us, you know, like, you know, I hear what you're saying, but private equity says that too. And it's like, it is so important that we align every action that we take with what we say we're gonna do and, and we try really hard.

Bob Whalen: Are we? A hundred percent? Of course we aren't. You know, we're not perfect.

You know, we make mistakes too. But I just think it's so important for our efforts. To be aligned with what we say we are. And we work really hard, uh, to do that.

And then, you know, we truly care about all of our people and we try to show that through a bunch of ways. Bob Whalen: I talked about respect, you know, is the one thing that I think is just incredibly important, but we. Do things to try to create trusting relationships with all of our employee owners and, and all the people we work with, frankly. Kate Volman: Are there certain industries or types of businesses that lend itself better to, for employee ownership?

Bob Whalen: Well, I, I would say without a doubt, there's industries that have been attracted to making transition to employee ownership, and so I think a business that's high labor makes a ton of sense. So if you're a consulting business or you're a financial service business, you know, accounting firms, a lot of these industries, you'll see a dichotomy that will go on. Bob Whalen: You know, for example, the accounting industry is being rolled up by private equity. But at the same time, you have all these accounting firms that are going employee owned at the same time, and so they're really trying to compete to say, what do you really want?

And. You know, I think as employee owned businesses, you know, we always feel that we can do it better than some other business model because we align our employee owners, you know, with what we're trying to accomplish. Bob Whalen: So I think that that's a big part of it. Unfortunately, ESOPs don't lend themselves well to really small businesses.

They're relatively costly, you know, from a fixed cost overhead to run them standpoint. So you have to make a certain amount of profit. The big advantage of an employee owned company is we don't pay any taxes on the portion that we're employee owned. Bob Whalen: So if we're 100% employee owned, we pay no federal income tax as a business, not zero.

And, and so. It that savings I is really a big benefit to being an ESOP. And if you're not big enough that those savings offset the fixed costs, it's kind of a costly, you know, way to go about it. And there's probably better ways, you know, to tie your employee owners into your success than through the equity of the business.

Kate Volman: You said there's not a lot of resources out there helping businesses. Think through this, figure out if it's right for them. And then obviously to go through the process. Do you have recommendations on where people can go to learn more, to really know what questions to ask, to see if this is something they should even be considering?

Bob Whalen: Yeah, so there is a lot of advisors that businesses really count on for their advice that don't even, are not even really all that familiar with ESOPs, and it's really the ESOPs community shop. To bring them up to speed and do 'em. So we have a lot of work to do as a community on bringing all your accounting firms up to speed on the ESOPs. Bob Whalen: It's unusual for them not to even know about them, but it, it is not unusual for them not to know the benefits that come out of being an employee owned company.

And there is a lot of work around it and a lot of complexity. And so a lot of advisors are just like, well. This is just too much. You know, this is just too much to worry about.

Bob Whalen: You know, why not? If you're gonna sell your business, just sell your business, fit your check, and move on. So a big onus on the advocates of employee ownership to really make sure all the advisors know. And that's accountants, you know, that's lawyers and all of those folks that are advising small to mid-size businesses that the ESOP is a solution.

Bob Whalen: And I think also. Is to talk about the issues that you may encounter as a former owner if you haven't thought through it and go down the wrong path for you. And I think one of those big things is the legacy of your business. You know, what do you want that to look like?

You know, you may be one of these people that you grow a business for 20 years and you sell it just like you do a house and you never look back. Bob Whalen: You know, and if you're one of those people, that's fine. You know, we, that's the great thing you know about living this life. You can kind of go about it, you know, within the law, you know, however you like to.

But then there's all kinds of people that just haven't really thought about, you know, how sad they're gonna be if they watch a business that they grew over 20 years. Bob Whalen: Just get guide. You know, and your people not be treated the way you treated your people and all of that stuff. And an ESOP is a real way to reward all those employees that helped get you where you got over the last 20 years.

And so that's a big focus of what we talk about, you know, in consideration of this, you know, is the legacy of the business. Bob Whalen: And then this, you know, and I already mentioned it, you know, taking care of those people to help you get, none of us do this by ourselves. You know, your business, you don't accomplish everything you've accomplished by yourself. You have a whole team that makes this whole thing, you know, go around.

And I think it's important to share what you create, you know, with the folks that help you get there, you know? Bob Whalen: And an ESOP is a way to do that in advance too. You're committed to. You know, you're gonna share what's created in the future with your employee base.

And so that's one of the reasons why I'm a big believer, you know? And then the last one, you know, is a little bit unusual one, but one that I've watched in business leaders a lot. Bob Whalen: You know, we think all business leaders are motivated by money, and a lot are, but a lot are motivated by just the actual scoreboard. They want to be successful, they want to win.

I can't believe how many times. You know, I have like divisions that are more focused on their p and l for the p and l state than they are the impact that that has on their bonus. Bob Whalen: You know, everybody tells you it's all about aligning financial incentives with what you're trying to do, and I don't think that that's unimportant, but I am constantly surprised about how often that's not a big deal to people. But the scoreboard is really a big deal.

And the nice thing about an ESOP is every year we get valued by an independent evaluator and we get a stock price, just like the stock market. Bob Whalen: So for all of us private companies that didn't have the benefit of knowing, you know, how we're doing relative to the competition, we get a scoreboard of how we're doing. And you think I'm not proud as a business leader of what our business has done and, you know, growing our stock at 33% a year for 15 years. Bob Whalen: You know, I'm incredibly proud of our team.

I'm incredibly proud, you know, of, of what we've done and that's right out there that we can watch that share price, you know, tick up over time. And it's, it's a big part, you know, whatever ESOP brings you, because you have to do it every year, it's part of the regulation. Kate Volman: It's so cool hearing you talk so passionately about this because obviously we, at Floyd, we get to work with leaders like you who care about their people, which I know is not the experience that everyone has and the the motivation side is interesting.

I was just talking to a friend of mine this morning because we were talking about how. Kate Volman: There's so much talk about growth and becoming this huge company, and it's all money related, but I've met so many entrepreneurs who they love that they employ people. They love that they are giving somebody an opportunity to come in to use their skills to build something, and then they can go home and fulfill their dreams and their family. Kate Volman: And so it's just as important to them that they're able to create an environment in which they get to have a team.

That gets to use their skillset. And I still remember like years ago, a friend of mine was building a business and, and it was doing very well and he was kind of growing and he had this dream of like wanting to have this 10, 20, $50 million company. Kate Volman: And then all of a sudden he thought, you know, I actually don't want that. I am so happy with my, I think he was, uh, around like 3 million and he had a team that he loved and everyone was, you know, not a lot of stress.

And they were, they were doing good things and, and he felt really content there. And obviously as you continue to grow, not saying it's good or bad, but I think it is really important for entrepreneurs and people in general to know what it is you're working towards. Kate Volman: What is it that you really do want, and the fact that your dream. Can change over time.

What you dreamed about 10 years ago or five years ago might look a little bit different. And you're able to shift that and you probably see that in, you have a big team over there, so the dreams of some of the people on your team, I'm sure have changed and you've been able to watch that as well. Kate Volman: And being an ESOP, I'm sure supports a lot of that growth. Bob Whalen: I couldn't agree more, you know?

So it is our dream to grow the business, and one of the reasons it's our dream to grow the business is because we've seen how much opportunity it creates for people by growing and creating opportunities for, you know, you and I before the call, we're talking about Adam Smith. Bob Whalen: Who is responsible for our mechanical business, but it's the growth of that business that's really created these opportunities. If I had stated HB McClure, Adam Smith would've never had an opportunity to be the division president at HB McClure.

And so, you know, the bigger we get, the more opportunities we create for people to take stretch assignments and to really grow and thrive. Bob Whalen: And I can tell you at this point in my career, and this has changed. But the thing I'm most proud of right now, and I just said it to a few people over the last couple of weeks, is the amazing things that I see happen within our company that I don't have anything to do with. Like, it never even crossed my mind.

Bob Whalen: And I am so proud that we have a team that is autonomous enough that we just execute on making great things happen. And so the more of those things I see, ironically, it's not that I, you know, feel badly because I'm not involved in all these things. I feel better every day that this business has scaled in a way that things are happening that I have nothing to do with, I don't even know about them. Bob Whalen: And they're happening and they're great things.

And I think employee ownership also allows for a much smaller company. You mentioned 3 million in revenue. Maybe they have, you know. 25, 30, 50 employees.

But you can be at ESOP and you can be a cash flowing business that just stays 3 million with 50 employees and you just keep on doing it and you create tremendous amount of wealth. Bob Whalen: We were just in discussions to acquire a company recently that has grown, uh, an incredible amount of equity, and they've been in ESOP for 18 years. And they have created an incredible amount of equity. They have 40 employees today, 40 employees, and they have, on a per employee basis, they, they've grown more equity than we have now.

Bob Whalen: We've grown, you know, way more overall and are doing it for a lot more people, but they concentrated their effort, did their one little thing, and they're so proud of their business and they should be. And that just shows the breadth. Of an ESOP structure. It can be good for that business and it be, can be, we want to be a multi-billion dollar business on VAC and you know, it allows for that as well.

Bob Whalen: And there are multi, you know, billion dollar, uh, businesses that are employee owned. And it's just the breadth of opportunity out there for what you wanna accomplish, I think is one of the great things you know about an ESOP. Kate Volman: Well, you are, you're. You're putting in the work, you are the leader to make it happen.

Kate Volman: You and I had an opportunity to meet when I was at HB McClure and, and doing some Dream Manager coaching with some of your team. And that was obviously so much fun and just getting to know your team, getting to know your people. And then over the past couple of weeks, I've been seeing a lot of thought leadership pieces come out of you on LinkedIn. Kate Volman: I was like, oh, look at Bob.

He's like. I feel like you're kind of re-energized to share not just about ESOP, but just some leadership lessons, some things that you've learned, some ways that you lead people, and obviously I'm a cheerleader for all of that because you're really promoting caring about your people and putting your people first. Kate Volman: So let's talk a little bit about. Leadership and culture and what some leaders are kind of missing today.

You know, I feel like we find leaders that are like you and they really care about your people and they're feeding into them. And then there are some that it just feels like maybe they just don't have the right priorities. Kate Volman: So what are some of the leadership lessons that you really wanna instill in some of the leaders in your organization that maybe are just getting in leadership roles or some leaders out there that are really looking to step it up and, and really grow their business by?

Really helping their people grow? Bob Whalen: Well, I, I think that's really where it starts. I, I, I think you've gotta care about other people, you know, and we all run into 'em. We all run into the, the folks that they just care about themselves and they see a world in a lens where it's finite and they're trying to get their piece of the pie, and they're gonna do whatever they can, I believe.

Bob Whalen: If you want to be a leader, you really gotta be focused on the other guy. That doesn't mean that I don't want my incentives aligned, so I'm successful as our team successful, but I think it starts with caring about making other people's lives better, making the world a better place. You know, I think is is where it start. Bob Whalen: And I think you do that through a team, you know, so one of our core values is about teaming, and there are times.

You know, where I'm not the right solution and I gotta be a good enough teammate to realize that there's somebody else or some other way, you know, that we should be approaching this situation. Bob Whalen: You know, that's outside. You know, me. I mean, we, we joked about some of my foibles before we got on this call.

We all have them. And so if you're a great teammate, you want to get into a position where you can do the things that you do really well. And you wanna minimize the stuff that you don't do very well. Bob Whalen: Well, I can tell you there's some really important things that I don't do very well.

Uh, you know, so why would a a 1700, you know, person, team be, you know, of interest to me? Well, I get it that I have a lot of stuff I need to, you know, have other people take care of 'cause they're better at that. And so, you know, I think that that's a big important part. Bob Whalen: Of leadership.

I'll tell you something that, that we've embraced, that, particularly our field employees, line employees love is, you know, we believe in grit. This is not some kumbaya thing either. I mean, we got real stuff, you know, we gotta get after and get done. And our employees take so much pride in just really accomplishing what they set out to do.

Bob Whalen: So I think that's a really important part. You know of who we are, we're students of leadership. I didn't come up with this autonomy thing myself, you know, it appealed to me when I was young, and so I loved working places where they gave me a lot of autonomy to do things and make mistakes and grow. But it comes out of academic, you know, materials, Daniel Pink.

Bob Whalen: You know what drives employee motivation? You know, one of the keys is autonomy. You know, another's master, you want to be great at what you do. Most people you know, don't like to be put into situations where they feel, you know, they're not very good at it.

And so, you know, all of those things we're trying together to just get a little bit better each day. Bob Whalen: And I think that that's a big part, you know, of what we talk about here at HB Global. We wanna be a little better tomorrow than we were today. And it's sometimes it's just as simple as that.

Kate Volman: What do you feel. Are some of the biggest challenges that CEOs specifically are facing today? Bob Whalen: I'm not a big proponent of big differences in generations. Bob Whalen: You know, I, I think we all think we walk to school two miles uphill in the snow both ways.

And, you know, so I'm not as big on, you know, the degenerations are materially different, but I do think there are some subtle things. I think we're going through, uh, you know, where employees are a little more well-rounded, you know, today than, than what maybe, you know, they were years ago. Bob Whalen: And that has implications on the workforce. In a way.

I think we let you know something out of Pandora's box with the work from home during COVID, you know, because there's a trade off with that. And I'm incredibly empathetic. If you worked in the New York metroplex. And you were commuting an hour each way to work.

Bob Whalen: The thought of not having to make that commute every day would make your life so much better. The downside, and I think you know, even why some of the great companies in New York are pulling their people back into the office is the mentorship is difficult. You can't do the, the mentorship over Zoom or teams. Bob Whalen: Like you can face to face the water cooler conversations don't happen.

You know, all that stuff. So it's a real challenge, but it's really difficult when people got used to it to say, ah, I'm sorry, you gotta do that two hour commute every day, Chad. You know, and people are doing it. And we're kind of still in a thing where, you know, frankly, most of our 1700 people don't have a choice.

Bob Whalen: But for those ones that did have a choice, we're trying to figure out. That balance. And, and so, you know, it's a, a real challenge and I think the biggest challenge for us as a business is there's just not enough of us. We're in the trades, there's just not enough and it's about to get way worse.

I mean, what's going on with AI, I think is no kidding around. Bob Whalen: And the data centers that are gonna have to be built to support where the economy is going in the future. And they talk about literally thousands of electricians and HVAC techs and plumbers that are gonna be needed over the next five years to build out these data centers that we don't have. So talk about a challenge.

Bob Whalen: And what that's gonna do to the supply chains. What, you know, what's that gonna do? Because what we see is when you got pays going up quickly, then you start to see this movement between companies because it's the easiest way for an employee to get the higher wage is to go, you know, to another company to do that as opposed to. Bob Whalen: You know, having the conversation with your employer and we talked to our managers about being proactive with those conversations.

'cause you know, I tell our people, and you know, I was honest with all of our employees in our annual meeting next year, I said a dec, a decade from now, in real terms, you're gonna make more money than you do now 'cause there's not enough of you. Bob Whalen: We're gonna do it. That's a challenge for us, and I think employee ownership helps us, you know, mitigate that. I think us sharing and bonuses, what we create each year helps us mitigate that, but it's still not easy for us.

I mean, it's not like we face a different problem than people willing to leave for a dollar an hour. Bob Whalen: Now a lot of those people will, will end up coming back when they see the grass is not greener. But still, that's a challenge for all of us to face. And if you're really objective about it as an executive, you can put yourself in their shoes.

They're trying to put shoes on their kids' feet. They're trying to pay for travel baseball. Bob Whalen: They're trying to have a little bit of fun. Every once in a while, you know, you can associate with the problem.

You know that they're going through and raising their families. And so I view it as a good thing. We are truly about our employees, so as market wages go up for what we do, that is a really good thing for me. Bob Whalen: But it doesn't make it easy to, you know, handle it as we're going through all this change as we saw, you know, like say between, you know, 21 and and 23 when we had inflation, and it created all kinds of havoc in the supply chain.

Kate Volman: Oh my gosh, there's so, there's so much there. I have so much. I have like three questions just based on what you said. Kate Volman: First being around AI, obviously it's a very big topic right now.

How are you engaging with it? How are you encouraging your team members to, or do you have a plan for that? Like what does that look like in atb? Bob Whalen: I give myself.

Maybe an F minus. I think we've been behind the curve. We haven't done the things that we showed a little late to the game. Bob Whalen: Maybe my personality is a little conservative and just didn't embrace it as fast as we could.

It's gonna have a huge impact. Luckily for me, the construction industry is slow. We're widely known. As being slow adopters of technology.

And so, you know, I guess I'm no different from that standpoint, but I think it's gonna have dramatic impacts. Bob Whalen: You know, it's gonna affect precon in a big way. A lot of things that we spent a lot of man hours to do in the past will just snap our fingers and will be done by AI and we are gonna have to adjust. The tools will will grow over time.

All of that stuff is gonna change, but the first change we're gonna see is this change in the data centers that have to be built. Bob Whalen: Whether we're even part of building those data centers. Think about the impact that that has on all the other work that has to get done when there's no people. I'll tell you, we really had adverse effects from the chip acts in Phoenix because they built the, the big chip factories out in Phoenix that sucked all of the labor in Phoenix to those chip factories.

Bob Whalen: 'cause they basically doubled wages overnight. And you're left trying to figure this out, you know, when, when you've had this, you know, mass exus, exodus of your labor to getting paid twice as much and, and so all of these things are big management challenges. And I think we are in a time of change, and we're gonna have to react quickly, you know? Bob Whalen: And the advice I give to my leaders is be proactive, be on top of it.

And agAIn, I don't give myself highs of our preparedness for AI and that we were on the cutting edge. I can even remember making fun of some of my peers about how they were gonna change the, you know, spending all this time to change the understanding. Bob Whalen: 10 years ahead of his time, you know, so I could make fun of him for a while, but I think he's gonna get the last laugh when it comes to this would be. So it's just, you know, really important that we're on our toes now and really understanding that the world's about ready to change in a pretty big way.

Kate Volman: You mentioned 2021 to 2023. Just a, a challenging time. There obviously was a lot, a lot going on. This is another topic among a lot of leaders.

How do you. Lead effectively through challenging times, right? Like, how do you communicate with your team? How do you get people to stay engaged and involved and keeping your eye on the mission when there's so much uncertainty?

Bob Whalen: I think the, the key word, you know, that you just brought up is communication. You know, I, I think you've gotta be willing to over communicate to your people about what's going on, what you're doing. Again, I mentioned it early, be proactive. You know, don't wait until somebody says, I got a $5 raise from somebody when, you know, we're not paying our employees.

Bob Whalen: Get out in front of it. Yes, it's a challenge for us. You know, it's a challenge when we, you know, wage increases that happen really quickly that, you know, remember, okay, we do contracts. That maybe we got two years ago and we, we priced our labor at a certain cost.

And you know, when wages go up in that interim, you're in a real pickle. Bob Whalen: Yeah. But you're in a bigger pickle if you lose the people you know, that are gonna deliver the work. And, and so you gotta wrestle with, with all of that.

But I think you gotta communicate with people, you gotta be proactive, you know, in making the changes that you've got to. And I think, you know, one of the things that's lost. Bob Whalen: Is we've gotta bring a positive energy to what's going on. If you want to be brought down, just turn on the TV.

Any night you can do that. You know, we need people you know that are gonna keep everybody's spirits up and the people that are gonna win are the people that are problem solvers. You accept the world as it is. Bob Whalen: You make the changes that you need to make.

Look at it as a challenge and get after it. And frankly, if you look at our track record, we've done pretty well with it. So, you know, let's accept that we're gonna continue to do well as long, you know, as we're willing to get after it and be proactive and make those changes. Kate Volman: All right.

You gave yourself a, a low, a low score with ai, but we're gonna redeem yourself. We're gonna redeem. Please gimme Bob Whalen: something. Kate Volman: I'm gonna ask you if, uh, how would you rate, on a scale of one to five, how would you rate your company culture?

Bob Whalen: My company culture, I would give very high ratings. You know, maybe would give us a four and a half. Bob Whalen: I don't, I don't think you can ever get to a perfect five 'cause that would mean 1700 people, you know, are culturally doing what you need them, you know, or were, uh, what you aspire to be. And, and so we don't have all 1700 running in the same direction.

But I'll tell you, we work really hard to do that. We spend an inordinate amount of energy, you know, really communicating what we aspire to be as a culture. Bob Whalen: And then one of the things I think we're getting better at is holding all of our team members to that standard. You know, I think we've now had time where we've clearly laid out what we're about and what we want to be.

And most importantly, if we feel like you don't have a potential to get to what we aspire to, we've gotta hold people accountable to that. Bob Whalen: And I think we're getting better and better at that. And you know, it's leading to great results for the company, but I think it leads to a great place to work. People can deal with a lot, but they, they want to know, they wanna understand.

You know what they're gonna deal with and if there's consistency there, I think people give you grace on a lot of other stuff. Bob Whalen: And you know, I give us quite high marks as it relates to our culture. Kate Volman: Well, I, I agree. I would give you guys high, high marks as well.

I've had the opportunity, I know you guys have three Dream Managers and you care about your people. You have a beautiful dream wall where people get to share their dreams, which is inspiring and, and really just helps people connect. Kate Volman: Uh, and so I think you're, you're doing great work and I love. That you're very intentional.

You're very intentional about this, and that is one thing that I see consistently among leaders that have companies with really great cultures. They are intentional about creating that great culture. It doesn't just happen. Kate Volman: This is something that you have to think about and that's exactly what you are doing.

And so I appreciate you sharing your insights through your, your, your posts now on LinkedIn and some of the other work that you are creating. You mentioned the scoreboard and I immediately thought of that question. I was like, well, I have to ask Bob, do you love to win or hate to lose? Bob Whalen: I love to win, and I actually think I'm a little unusual into, generally speaking, I can deal with a loss when I feel like I performed or my team has performed well.

So I was the weird athlete. That if I was facing superior competition and I felt like I performed well, that I could accept that performance. Bob Whalen: Now it's devastating to me. Devastating.

Whenever I feel like I lost to an impotent that was in inferior skill. That is not good. You know, not something that, but I could face great competition and feel like they were just better than me, and I could give myself high marks on that. But you know, just, just like I said, you know, when you open those statements in March and you see those values, I mean, that's winning.

Bob Whalen: And, you know, I look forward to that all year. So I think I enjoy winning, you know, more than I worry about. And, and frankly, I don't spend a lot of time looking back on, on the losses. Once the loss is over, I'm gonna assess what I need to do better and I'm gonna move right on and not be thinking about it, you know?

Bob Whalen: So, um, you know, I, I, I enjoy the wins a lot. Kate Volman: Awesome. All right, well, last question. You, uh, people love to hear recommendations.

Is there a book, a podcast, something that you are really into, that you feel like is a really great resource for leaders right now? Bob Whalen: First of all, I was very inspired by The Dream Manager, you know, and, and a lot of your material. Bob Whalen: So, and we've sent three people through the program, you know, so we really believe in it. There's a lot of business stuff that I follow and, and really enjoy.

First, I'm a huge fan of Jim Collins, uh, and I would recommend Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0 because he consolidates all his theories into one book, you know, which is wonderful from that perspective. Bob Whalen: So that's a great one. We're fans of the EOS system and, and so.

Any of the stuff, Gino Wickman's stuff on the EOS system I think is, is great stuff. And, um, well those are, that's probably, no, Kate Volman: those are two great ones. Bob Whalen: I read a ton of books, so I, I'm really into it and I'm a podcast fan too. Kate Volman: What's your like, go-to favorite podcast?

Bob Whalen: My go-to favorite podcast is. From a purely business standpoint, I like invest like the best. Colossus is the name, and so I, all their podcasts, I kind of, you know, follow all of those. The joys of compounding is one of those couple Notre Dame professors, which I'm a Notre Dame fan, uh, you know, that run a podcast that, that I think is great, uh, you know, as well.

Bob Whalen: So those are the business swans. But then I follow, you know, a couple of others, you know. Kate Volman: All right. All right.

Cool. Bob, thank you so much for taking the time to chat and share all of these great insights. Again, you're such an inspiring leader. Uh, just.

More, more leaders out there need to care about their people as much as you care about your people. Kate Volman: And so it's always really great to hear what you, what you have going on over there. And, and we're so blessed to be able to work with you and your team and I know we're gonna be doing some, some new things in the future with you. So I'm excited about that.

And you have a dream that you are achieving. So I don't know if you wanna share, but we are gonna have you come back on the podcast to talk about that. Bob Whalen: Well, I personally went through The Dream Manager training and one of my dreams was to write a book. And so that book is actually complete.

So we're in the process of doing covers and you know, all the other fun stuff. And I think the book is, is gonna come out in the spring. And so, you know, more than likely I'll be doing the ESOP tour and, and you know, all of that stuff. Bob Whalen: 'cause the book is really focused on just creating awareness in owners that are selling their business, that this is an option.

And, and then we kind of throw in our experience, you know, at HB Global and, and you know, how we've gone about it and how you tie. Employee ownership in with the culture and, and so, you know, those are the things we're kind of passionate about here. Bob Whalen: And so, you know, excited to release the book in the spring, Kate Volman: so. Cool.

Well when you do, we're gonna have you come back on, we will talk all about it. It's gonna be great. Um, and until then, if you wanna connect with Bob, I definitely will add his LinkedIn to the show notes so that you can find him, because I know you're sharing a lot of great. Kate Volman: Really inspiring pieces over there.

You're talking about your family, you're talking about things that you've learned from your grandfather and father. So it's, and all the things. And so we're, uh, so people can connect with you over there as well. Um, uh, Bob, anything before we go that you wanna share?

I Bob Whalen: thank you so much for having me on. Kate Volman: You're awesome. Thank you. And thank you so much for listening.

We so appreciate all of you. We hope that something in this episode inspired you. Something that maybe, maybe got you thinking about turning your company into an ESOP, and so you're gonna have a really great book to read to learn all about that pretty soon. Kate Volman: So thank you again so much for being here and for listening.

We appreciate you and until next time, Lead With Culture.