Lead With Trust For Construction Leaders · 2023-12-12 · 20 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
40 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Sue Dyer, founder of the International Partnering Institute and veteran of over 40 years in construction, delivers a reflective solo episode closing out the year's series on women in construction. She recounts her early career as executive director of what is now the United Contractors Association, where she was often the only woman in the room during collective bargaining negotiations. Dyer discusses how her presence naturally shifted negotiation dynamics - when union representatives began swearing and pounding tables, her male colleagues became embarrassed, allowing her to reset the rules of engagement. Her key insight: having someone new and different in the room breaks old patterns and allows you to establish fresh norms. Beyond gender, Dyer emphasizes that construction attracts pragmatic problem-solvers who care primarily about results, not demographics. She shares strategic lessons from decades of contract negotiations: bringing a written agenda controls outcomes, the person taking notes shapes what "happened," and adopting a 20-year strategic view drives better long-term decisions for all stakeholders - employers, workers, unions, and the industry. These principles informed how she built her consulting company with succession planning from inception, eventually handing it to Rob Ray after 36 years to ensure continuity beyond her tenure. The episode anchors construction's surprising cultural acceptance of diversity within professional competence and work ethic.
Union leaders who typically pounded tables and swore during negotiations became embarrassed and subdued in her presence, which disrupted their usual adversarial approach and allowed Dyer to reset the rules toward her non-adversarial partnering method.
She earned it because she could accomplish agreements that other negotiators thought were impossible; the nickname became positive when people noted that snakes can eat 10 - 100 times their own weight, framing her deal-making as a strength.
Work ethic, pace, willingness to do what it takes, and ability to work in teams matter far more than gender, background, or other demographics - construction culture values results and pragmatism.
A long-term perspective helped her negotiate contracts that addressed not just immediate market issues but how to keep the industry competitive, improve worker quality, and benefit all stakeholders - employers, workers, and unions - over decades.
She designed the business with succession in mind from the start and, after 36 years as president, sold it to Rob Ray to lead for the next 35 years, creating a chain of stewardship intended to extend the company 100+ years or longer.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
There are a handful of genuinely non-obvious observations - using outsider status to reset room norms, the negotiation 'dance' dynamic, and agenda-control tactics - but they are diluted by lengthy personal narrative, year-end reflection filler, and two promotional plugs for the host's free resource and IPI community.
the person with the agenda controls the meeting. Also, the person who writes the notes determines what happened at the meeting.
if you didn't have enough dance, then they didn't feel like they fought hard enough to get what they wanted. So they would never come to an agreement.
The framing of outsider status as rule-setting leverage and the negotiation-dance concept are genuine first-person observations rather than recycled frameworks, but most surrounding commentary defaults to generic leadership advice (kindness, long-term thinking, salt-of-the-earth culture) that circulates widely.
by being the only woman in the room, I could set the rules of engagement because having me in a room meant that the old rules didn't work anymore
construction people are, I think of them as the salt of the earth, the best people, pragmatic, concrete thinkers, they make things happen
This is a solo monologue episode; the host has real practitioner credentials - executive director of a contractors association, 40 years in the industry, IPI founder - but there is no external guest, and the depth of insight shared does not fully leverage her apparent seniority.
My Trusted Leader journey has led me to work on over 4,000 construction projects worth over $180 billion.
after 36 years at the helm, I sold the business to Rob Ray, who's now the president, for him to take the lead for the next 35 years.
The episode has a moderate number of specific anchors - named organizations, years, dollar figures, and a named successor - but the business outcomes from negotiations and partnering work are left entirely vague; there are no cited agreement terms, productivity numbers, or measurable results from any project.
when I got married in 1970, I couldn't get a credit card in my name without my husband signing off that it was okay with him
In a matter of approximately 90 days, We saw many states change their work rules so that now the norm was non-union workers and non-union companies.
There is no interview or conversation; the episode is an uninterrupted solo monologue, making host questioning, follow-up, and productive challenge structurally impossible. The narrative itself is coherent but unchallenged and self-referential.
Okay, Construction Nation, I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Lead with Trust.
Will you do me a favor? If you think this episode can help anyone on your team or business, please forward it to them.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Today marks the final episode of the Lead with Trust podcast in 2023. In this episode, Sue reflects on a year dedicated to empowering women in construction. With over forty years of experience in the field, she shares her unique journey as a woman in a traditionally male-dominated industry, beginning in the early 1980s, a time when career opportunities for women were limited and societal norms were markedly different. Sue recounts the challenges she faced, including the struggle to gain respect and acceptance in construction. Her experiences, from being the only woman in the room to confronting gender biases, reveal some of the significant cultural shifts that have occurred over the decades. Sue delves into her role in negotiating with unions, highlighting key strategies that helped her succeed in a tough environment. She emphasizes the power of setting the agenda and controlling the narrative, which earned her the nickname "the Snake Lady" for achieving what seemed impossible. By taking a long-term view and focusing on the industry's collective needs, she was able to negotiate agreements beneficial to all parties involved.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
As I started off in my career as executive director, I did want to change some norms. I really wanted to do it because I had two small children that I needed to feed and house. But I always moved forward with kindness, always looking to do what was the right thing for everyone involved. And if people didn't understand my role, then I would try to help them understand.
And that did happen because they weren't accustomed to working with a woman. Hey, Construction Nation. Welcome to Lead with Trust. I'm Sue Dyer, and I've been on a three-decade journey to figure out how to make sure our construction projects succeed and produce some extraordinary results.
My Trusted Leader journey has led me to work on over 4,000 construction projects worth over $180 billion. In this podcast, I'm here to teach you everything I've learned. One thing I know is that it starts with the leaders of the businesses and organizations that come together to build a project. If that's you, let's get going.
Hi, Construction Nation. As 2023 concludes, it seems like a good time for reflection. This year, we did a series on bringing women into construction. We learned a great deal from the women that we interviewed.
I especially love that they found construction a career that they love and that there are so many ways and different areas within construction to work that really there's always some place that can fit for really anyone. I've loved construction for over four decades. So today, as we close out this year, I'm going to share some of the lessons I've learned over the past 40 years, being a woman working in construction. But first, before I share that, I want to share some other news.
I wanted to let you know that the Lead with Trust podcast has become a production of the International Partnering Institute or IPI. I founded IPI as a 501c3 nonprofit way back in 2007 as a place where construction leaders can go to find out how to make partnering work on their projects. We've learned so much about what works and what doesn't work. And this is a place to come to really learn so that you can level up your leadership, your projects, and your programs, and maybe even your organization, because it applies across all the board.
They all affect our projects. So I hope you'll continue to listen to Lead With Trust and share the episodes with your team and colleagues. I hope you will join and become a part of the IPI community. You won't find better people anywhere in the industry.
Now, for my 40 years of lessons learned from working in construction. I've never really talked about this, my experience of being a woman in construction. It just was sort of something that was, and so I never really reflected on it until this year. As I've mentioned, I really do love construction.
I love the people. I love how we create things. And I love seeing something that was just a thought in someone's mind be created in reality. And it comes to life.
And really, it brings society to life. We build society. But, you know, it wasn't always easy being a woman working in construction, especially back in the early 1980s when I started. And that was when women were just starting to come into the workplace.
Really not that many were. What was open to women was regular female type of jobs where it would be as a teacher or a nurse, a clerk, you know, something like that was typical if a woman worked at all. But things were really different back then. So for example, when I got married in 1970, I couldn't get a credit card in my name without my husband signing off that it was okay with him The same went for a bank account I couldn get one of those without his permission And so you know it was very different The policies were different the practices were different, and the laws were different.
So when I became the executive director for what is now the United Contractors Association, even my own father said to my mother that no woman is worth the kind of money that they were paying me. It just was not the norm. And he didn't say this to hurt me. He said it because it was his experience.
And it was what the norm was in the world that he lived in and had been for generations. And so, as I started off in my career as the executive director, I did want to change some norms. I really wanted to do it because I had two small children that I needed to feed and house. But I always moved forward with kindness, always looking to do what was the right thing for everyone involved.
And if people didn't understand my role, then I would try to help them understand. And that did happen because they weren't accustomed to working with a woman. It was a new role. And so we had to work out how that would work for each individual person to some extent, but really more of the new norm.
So for the first two decades of working in construction, there was never a time when I was not the only woman in every room. And sometimes there would be a group of people and I would come up to talk to them and I was ignored or even brushed off as having nothing of value to add. But a lot of times it was because they were just uncomfortable themselves. They didn't know how to react to a woman in this setting.
I quickly learned, though, that by being the only woman in the room, I could set the rules of engagement because having me in a room meant that the old rules didn't work anymore. And this first came to light one day when I was at the bargaining table with a union conducting negotiations. Our association team was seated on one side of the table and the unions team was seated on the opposite side. When they started the negotiations, it started with a lot of pounding on the table and loud accusations.
Swear words were prevalent and punctuated in every sentence. Then a very interesting thing happened. my team was very quiet and this was not usual for them at all, but they were embarrassed on how the union leaders were swearing and yelling in front of a woman. That was when I realized that I get to set the rules here.
And so I did. Using my non-adversarial partnering approach, my team worked to listen to really understand what the union needed. In turn, they listened to us partly because they really didn't know what else to do. The old rules didn't work anymore.
Together though, we were able to create trust and agreements that took care of the employees who were their members and also address the market conditions because the employees have no work if you don't address what's going on in the market. And so many unions at this time weren't looking at market. They didn't care. They just wanted to get as much as they could for their members.
And that really undermined many, many, many different crafts in this period of time. hope you're enjoying this show every time you and your team step foot onto a construction project you bring your business culture with you for any construction project to succeed there must be a high trust culture it doesn't matter if you're in planning design construction or startup phases The more trust you bring and build, the better your results. I've created a free resource for you, the Trusted Leader Profile, so you can know exactly the level of trust you bring to your business and projects and what you can do to boost trust You can grab that at pseudico slash profile That S dot com slash profile P-R-O-F-I-L-E.
And I hope that you'll remember that always high trust equals high performance, and it really depends on you. Now back to the show. So, as I mentioned, at this time was also kind of an interesting time because it was a snowball that started to happen across the United States where there were a lot of open shop or non-union contractors that were making enormous strides. And in a matter of approximately 90 days, We saw many states change their work rules so that now the norm was non-union workers and non-union companies.
It happened very quickly. It just was like a wave, a storm that came and just happened. And to many, they thought that was a great thing. To others, they thought it wasn't a great thing.
to our members who are all signatory, it meant, and they can't really get out of it because there's unfunded liability and other things. It meant that they had more challenges to face out in the bidding world. So that was one of the things I definitely learned is that being the only woman or being someone new and different, and the old rules don't work allows you to set new rules. But here's another thing I learned at the bargaining table was that the person with the agenda controls the meeting.
Also, the person who writes the notes determines what happened at the meeting. So traditionally, in the collective bargaining process with the construction trades, neither side brought an agenda to the table. They didn't outline what they wanted. They just sort of talked.
and I wouldn't even say they talked. They kind of yelled at each other. They talked at each other. And rather than really work through with an agenda and what we wanted and talk about it, the bargaining went on for weeks and months.
And very slowly, both sides began to reveal to each other what it is they wanted. It was sort of a dance. And I learned quickly that if you didn't have enough dance, then they didn't feel like they fought hard enough to get what they wanted. So they would never come to an agreement.
So there always had to be a dance. But I always brought an agenda and a very clear objective overall, but also for each meeting. And so that I knew exactly what it is we were trying to accomplish. We're very transparent, open and honest and transparent.
And that really helped us to fashion agreements that were really remarkable for the time. In fact, that's how I got my nickname of the snake lady is that apparently, I can accomplish what other people thought were impossible. And so, they started calling me the snake lady. But then pretty soon, everybody said, But wait a minute, a snake can eat 10 or 100 times its own weight.
So that's a good thing, right? So yeah, so that's how I became the snake lady. Another takeaway from this process of negotiating with the crafts was to always take a long view. Not just what's going on this year or what are the market issues right now, but what's the long view?
How do we stay competitive in the marketplace? How do we improve the quality of the workers, the quality of the projects? How do we improve what we're doing and how do we improve working together? So a very long point of view made a huge difference because I would always look at least 20 years out and where are we moving and what do we need to do?
So we negotiated every three or four years. That was the term of the contracts. But I would set a strategy that would help us move forward one step at a time. And I always, always wanted to do what was right for everyone involved.
So you have to take an industry perspective, an entire industry perspective. And if you're doing that, then you're going to do what's right for the individual employers, the contractors as well as the individual workers who are members of the union as well as for the union and everyone in between But this lesson learned on the long view was also something that stuck with me So you know, when I started my own company and I left United Contractors, I wanted to create a company that would last at least 100 years.
So, in everything that I worked on, I would always have that in mind. And then after 36 years at the helm, I sold the business to Rob Ray, who's now the president, for him to take the lead for the next 35 years. And then when he's ready to hand it off, he'll hand it off to someone else. So it's been designed that way because of this long-term view.
And I could see the business perhaps going on for way beyond 100 years now, could really go on for hundreds of years if the people that get it handed off to decide that that's what they want. Another lesson that I learned that is construction people are, I think of them as the salt of the earth, the best people, pragmatic, concrete thinkers, they make things happen. And they really don't care if you're a man or a woman, purple, green, or very different. If you can get the job done, construction has a very accepting culture for really anybody who wants to come into it.
And I know that isn't the reputation, but it's been my experience for 40 years. And I was very different and unusual. And some people would say, I still am. But that's a side.
But it really matters though, how hard you are willing to work, that you keep pace with the speed of when things are needed and that you're willing to do what it takes. Those things are much more important. In fact, those are the only things that are probably important. The rest of it, attitude probably has a big part of it too, because you have to be able to work in a team of teams.
And if you can't do that, then you're not going to be very successful either. So I did explore other industries for a year when I wrote my book, Lead with Trust, and kind of walked away from construction thinking, well, I sold the business and I need it to transfer to Rob, so I can't be in the middle of it. So I kind of walked away and began to dip my toe into some other industries. But honestly, it just wasn't home.
and it just didn't feel like where I wanted to be or where I'm meant to be. I love construction and I've dedicated my life to helping construction leaders deliver partnering that works on their projects and in their programs and to create their organizations consistent with that so that they can get the most return on investment for their efforts. And so this is what I will continue to do until the day I take my last breath. And I would love for you to join me in this journey through joining IPI and seeing all the great things that we're doing there, but also all the things we're going to be creating over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years.
So until next year, when we start a brand new series on how to deliver better projects on the International Partnering Institute's Lead with Trust podcast, I want to wish you all happy holidays and thank you all so much for listening. Okay, Construction Nation, I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Lead with Trust. Will you do me a favor? If you think this episode can help anyone on your team or business, please forward it to them.
Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And your honest review, hopefully five stars is much appreciated. Every leader who learns how to build their business and projects on a foundation of trust is going to reap the rewards of greater productivity, attracting the best of the best, enjoying your business more and doing things you thought were impossible. If you want to know where you are in your trusted leader journey, I have a free resource for you.
please just go to sudico.com slash profile, S-U-D-Y-C-O dot com slash profile. And you can grab it there and find out where you are on your trusted leader journey. And so that is a wrap for today.
Can't wait until I get a chance to hang out with you again next week. And until then, have a great day.
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