"Empowering Women in Finance: A CFO's Journey to Leadership and Entrepreneurship with Sue Rosen"

Speaker A: Welcome to Lady Leadership, the podcast that celebrates and empowers women in leadership roles. I'm your host, Sam McIntyre. In each episode, we'll dive deep into the experiences, challenges and triumphs of extraordinary women who are making their mark in various industries. My mission is to amplify the voices of women leaders to share their stories, insights and wisdom. By doing so, we can break down, um, barriers, challenge stereotypes and pave the way for more inclusive and diverse future.

Speaker B: Hi everyone and welcome to the Lady Leadership Podcast. My name is Sam McIntyre and today I have the wonderful Sue Rosen who empowers CFOs to cultivate their executive presence and build leadership impact on the show. Sue is, uh, cfo, she's a non executive director and uh, welcome Sue.

Speaker C: Thank you, Sam. Lovely to be here.

Speaker B: Now, so tell me then a little bit about your personal journey and some of the pivotal moments that you, that led you to where you are today in your career and also in your business.

Speaker C: Yeah, fantastic. Thanks Sam. I started out my career, um, training as a chartered accountant in, in London a long time ago. Came out of unique, not really knowing what I wanted to do, uh, but imagining that I wanted to do something in the corporate world, something business oriented. And I had an accounting major so, you know, accounting felt like something I fell into really. I definitely was not. I didn't put myself out there thinking, this is what I want to do. And I went into chartered accounting and thought, well, this is, I didn't love it, but I went, this is a really great grounding in business M and what I want to be. You know, what I could see myself doing was using that as a basis to go into some wider, broader business role. You know, that's what I thought when I, when I first left chartered accounting, I got trained in London and then I came on a working holiday visa to Australia and thought, you know, this is a pivot moment. I thought, yeah. And looking back, it was in some ways. So I moved out of, you know, working in professional services in an accounting practice, but I did. Oh, but I don't know what to do and I'm qualified in this and I don't know how I get into something, you know, else.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: I did, I loved, I've always loved the arts and so, you know, I worked for a while in finance roles in arts organizations and because I went, oh, you know, maybe this is the, this is the path for me. And then I moved into more of a, I moved into a recruitment company and headed up their finance team. So I was at least working on the other side of kind of, this is my opportunity to see broader business.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Rather than just the accounting and finance side. And I mean that was, I was with them a long time and there was some exciting moments in my career because we went through an ipo, we listed on the stock exchange. So we grew from being a very small boutique organization into. We were never large, but we grew up probably in terms of staff numbers, you know, at least 10 times, um, in terms of size starting very boutique and growing and going through that listing. So there were an enormous, there was an enormous amount to learn, you know, on that, on that journey and heading up that finance team. Not for all of that, but for some of that. Uh, but I, I still always had this thing that I would like one day to do something quite different away from the accounting and finance stuff. And I, but I never knew what it was. And then you, you also, I think many of your listeners will have experienced this. You feel sometimes trapped by where you are. In the sense that I was at a certain level. I had a good, um, you know, I had a good level of pay. I then had children. I then had children. And you know, it's easier to take the maternity leave, which wasn't paid back then, mind you, but it was easier to take the maternity leave and then come back part time within an organization where I was known and had credibility and all of those things. So at that period of my life that, you know, my 30s, I felt very trapped by that. Oh, you know, nobody else will ever employ a senior finance person. Um, part time. You know, these are the, these are the assumptions and the beliefs we have that kept me there a long time, longer than I should have stayed. Right past the point where I was no longer learning and growing past the point where I was enjoying it. So. But I had these, you know, assumptions and beliefs. I was working with that. No, and, and of course when you're in that kind of situation, it can eat away at your confidence as well. Um, and that's really what I found is that my confidence was falling as well because I wasn't, I was part time. I was, had two young children. I felt like I wasn't doing anything well. Yeah, you know, and, and that was eating. I wasn't getting on really great projects and when I did, I didn't always feel I could give every, you know, my all to them, but I was working hard on those part time days. But I didn't, I have to say, when I look back, I go, I realized I didn't really Know what I wanted?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, going through the motions and feeling somewhat trapped, like I didn't have a choice. What were my choices? So it took me a lot, a long time to move on from that. And when I did, of course, when I did actually raise the question of, oh, yeah, I would like a part time finance, um, leader role. And I found one.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: With better pay, better conditions, nicer people, uh, and went, oh, that was, you know, why didn't I do this years ago?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: It's interesting how we, you know, we get trapped in these, in this, in this thinking. But there was still. So that was great. For a couple years I went into a small financial services, private equity funds manager. And that was great because I was learning something new. It was a new industry. I was working with different people, but really there was still something niggling away at me on the inside about doing something completely different. I've always been a people person. I always want to do something that was more around working really directly with people. Um, but as I say, it was hard to figure that out. And actually I ended up having some career coaching myself and I was looking at full time CFO roles and do I move industries or what is it about the role that I would like to. And I just, I couldn't get very enthused about things.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: What I was really enjoying was these conversations that I was having with my coach and thinking there's, this is really powerful. You know, I was really shifting my perception of myself and where I was in my career and I went, oh, maybe this is something I could do. So that's how I came to start training in coaching.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I was still working in a part time CFO role and I thought, well, I can dip my toe in the water, I can try some training in this. And um, if it goes nowhere in terms of a career or a business, for me it is at least a very useful, valuable skill, no matter the next role I take.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So, yeah. And once, once I started training, uh, in coaching, I loved it. You know, I just went, okay, this is what I want to do. Yeah, this, this is what I really want to spend my time doing is working with other people to help them realize that it is so liberating when you realize you have a choice. You know, even when we think we're not making a choice, we're making a choice to stay with the status quo.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, that's true. That's very. Yeah.

Speaker C: And that really unlocked something for me is that. And if you don't do it now I look back, so I'm in my 50s, but I look back in my 30s and go, in my 30s I thought I'd invested so much time, energy, money, etc. In becoming qualified and building up a status and a, you know, reputation in my role that I couldn't possibly chuck that in and do something else. M m. Whereas in my 40s I started to go, oh, but I could be working for a long time yet. And, and if I'm still doing the same thing in 15 or 20 years, yeah. Oh, that would be awful. So I started to look at things differently and go, actually all that experience, that's not wasted, you know, I had to really reframe it. The experience I had in corporate, in finance roles, in leading teams and doing the analytical work, that's not wasted. It's all part of who I am and that's all part of, you know, how I bring that, integrate that into who I am and who I become as a coach or a facilitator or a speaker, which are all the things that I love to do now.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, yeah. So for a number of years I managed both. I did, you know, as training in coaching and then building my practice in coaching, uh, whilst working part time in a CFO role. And then about, uh, so I started that journey nearly nine years ago actually. And for the last three and a half or four years, um, I've been focused on this. This is my business now.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: As opposed to juggling the two, which was, which was tricky, but it did. And a lot of times I wanted to throw in the towel with the CFO stuff and think, no, I'm ready for the next thing. But what I, you know, I also still had the private school fees and the mortgage and all of those things and went, you can do this, you just got to do it. You know, I'm quite, um, quite conservative financially and risk averse, as many people in finance are. Ah. And when you can do this, you can, you don't just have to take the leap without anything to go to. You have to prove that this is a financially viable option.

Speaker B: You know, I think there's some really important themes in there. So a couple of things that I liked was the number one of, you know, when you're out of uni, you're like, you're 20 years of age, you're making, uh, the decision you're making then doesn't need to be for the rest of your life and that you can try stuff out and you can work in a potential career. But then you've got the opportunity to change it. I think also you can continue to work whilst you've got young children and potentially that's working part time and that might look a little bit different. But then the assumptions and beliefs that you put in your head at the time and so you had. Because we do have this assumption, but it's hard to find roles, senior roles, part time, and, and it can be. But then you were like, no, actually I'm one of. I've decided I've been here too long and I want to find something else. And you made that happen. And then I also really like that you're transitioning from one. One career really, to a different career using the experience that you've got. But you've done that as well. And then, like you said, made sure that that's viable and, uh, can continue to, you know, support yourself because. And I think that is the struggle as well that you, when you do get into senior roles, they are well paid. Maybe you're not enjoying yourself as much as you thought you would or you. You originally thought. Because I remember, you know, I was like, right, I want to be as, um, I've worked in technology, I want to be a CIO by a certain time frame. I made that happen. And um. And then, you know, you do that for a while and you're like it. I want to evolve and grow and continue and I want to do something different. And then the opportunity to do that. And it is so rewarding that when you do then do. Because I also do coaching. It's so rewarding being able to use your experience and what you've learned in your career to then help others. And so that it. Because I know looking back, there's some women that were really instrumental in my career and, um, you know, to be able to do that for others as well is in how you give back and how you help as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely, that. And there's some. It is very rewarding to know, to see yourself as being of service to other people. You know, that's. That's incredibly rewarding.

Speaker B: What challenges did you face then, do you think, as being a woman in finance, did you face? So I sometimes kind of feel like finance, you know, it's a distinct skill set. Um, it really does run the business. And so. So seems as though, uh. So. So there is quite a lot of women that work in finance. Yeah. Just talk to me then about perhaps any challenges that you face.

Speaker C: Yeah, so. So this is an interesting one because there are a lot of Women who work in finance. And even I would say when I first moved into, you know, came out of uni and went into that chartered accounting practice and I was with one of the big four. So they took on a lot of graduates. Even back then there were a lot of young women going into those roles, but there were hardly any role models at the senior level.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: You know, they were few and far between to find senior managers or partners that were women. So there were very few role models. Uh, even though there were a good number, a high proportion of the new graduates were women. I don't remember if I have this feeling that it might have been roughly equal even back then, but maybe not. But nowadays there are more young women that go into accounting, um, and finance than there are young men brought. But we still at the senior levels, you know, all those years.

Speaker B: I know what you're going to say. Yeah.

Speaker C: You know what I'm going to say at senior levels.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: We are still severely underrepresented. Um, and it. And we can't say it's because there's no pipeline. Yeah, you know, we can't say we haven't had, uh, girls graduating. I mean, you know, because this is. And I have done some work with some women in the tech space myself as well in the past. And I think this is still probably challenging. The tech space or the engineering space more so because the number of female graduates is lower. Accounting has had huge numbers of female graduates. So it's kind of like this is a fur fee that we don't have the pipeline. The women are dropping out too, uh, early or moving into different sectors or not moving up or different things are happening. And that's what we, you know, so we need to be looking at the systemic issues. This is not about. It's not about the women's, you know, not having the skills, the qualifications, the credibility. It really is about, well, how are we promoting people? What are the things we're expecting of people? You know, and I think things are shifting around flexibility and parental leave, but we've still got a long way to go.

Speaker B: I just want to go back to your point about the tech pipeline. So we've still got a really good pipeline in tech and, um, uh, I think it's exactly what you're talking about. And it's the system. So it's how we hire, promote, support women. And it's very interesting for me to hear that it's the same in finance. I also always sort of thought maybe it was a little bit easier in finance and so that's telling me no. And so just kind of reinforcing my thought because I'd worked with women around coaching them and I got to the point of we can tell women to stand up and put your hand up and promote yourself and speak up and all the rest of it, but unless we change the system of how we're hiring, promoting, supporting, etc. We're just going to be in the same position. And also knowing myself, being in leadership positions myself, I've been able to increase the numbers of women in my tech teams substantially by 12% in a short period of time to nearly a 40, 40, 20. Right. And you know, just short 37%. And that's because I hired women who hadn't worked in technology. I hired women who were part time in senior roles. I hired, I, uh, promoted women that didn't maybe think that they were necessary and then focus on it. And I focused on like, how are we hiring women? And we just, we're just not doing that in organizations across the board and we're saying, oh, we've got a problem, but we're not, we're not actually sorting it out.

Speaker C: Yeah. And, and you've, you've absolutely nailed it on the head there because it's about how do we take action and by doing things differently and, and stop this idea. And you're right. You and I can both work with women and I do work with women who have a lot of self doubt and I can, I can work with them through that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I think, you know, but part of the whole impostor syndrome or the self doubt comes from spending so much time surrounded. You know, I work with a lot of female, um, CFOs who spend so much time as, you know, the only woman on the leadership table or one of very few. And we know that different ideas don't get brought to the table. If you're tokenistic in the sense, oh, we've got a woman, you know, um, you need a critical mass of diverse voices to really shift thinking and shift ideas. So there is a whole piece here about what can we do with the system. And you're right, that talks to how do we recruit differently, how do we look at. Rather than just saying, you know, women can't, women aren't progressing because they're taking time off to have babies. Well, let's look at what our system is. So, so they can do that and they can come back and be supported. Let's also look at our system around, you know, encouraging men to take parental leave so that we start to break down the stigma of taking time out. You know, the flexibility piece of leaving the office at a certain time because you're going to, um, pick up the kids or go to sports day or whatever. And I used to look at it and say, you know, it's interesting. There have always been some men who have done some of those things almost by stealth because if you were senior enough in an organization, you just walked out of the office when you lucked anyway. Whereas a woman who was putting her hand up to say, I need to leave,

Speaker B: they put their keys in their pocket or they haven't even taken their keys and wallet out of their pocket and they just wander off. Whereas it's a real. I mean, I've heard plenty of women say that they. And I've actually done this myself as well. I've gone and put my handbag in the car at lunchtime and then I've then just exited the building as well. Um, because it's a lot more obvious when women leave. And I also, I consciously, in my career stopped asking for permission to do those sorts of things and just started doing them. And then also I, I didn't tell people necessarily either. Right. And so. Or I didn't make excuses. So I didn't say, oh, I'm late because. Or I'm. I'm just, I'm late.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and give reasons because I think sometimes we just overshare and it's men. M. Never. You never. You never hear men, really.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker C: Or I have to, you know, I have to leave at 4:30 because I have a commitment.

Speaker B: Yeah. I have a commitment. Whatever. You know, and if you're.

Speaker C: It doesn't really matter. And it's because it's not just about being a parent either, is it? It's about, you want to play golf

Speaker B: at 4 o' clock on a Tuesday. Happy days. If you can get your job done.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: In the rest.

Speaker C: And you know that I do. I do feel most organizations, you know, we're at least moving in the right direction now in terms of that increased flexibility.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And that understanding the flexibility. And maybe, you know, this was something coming out of COVID as well. The pandemic made people question that flexibility isn't just about parents. I'm sorry. About parenting children. It might also be about caring for elderly parents. It might also be about pursuing, uh, another interest. It might also be about community involvement or studying part time. You know, this. There's all these reasons that are brilliant and they're actually helping people be more hold in there. You know, take it over. More holistic approach. Yep.

Speaker B: Love it. What advice do you have for women then, who aspire to succeed, you know, in the finance field or, uh, also, you know, starting their own business as well?

Speaker C: I think, actually it's interesting because it's coming off partly off the back of a conversation I had earlier today with a group of women. I think being conscious that we need to continually be building relationships and building our networks or communities around us. I. And I know this was true of myself as well. When we get very busy in a role and I see it with. I see it with men and women, because I do. I work with men as well. Um, so I see it with men and women. We get. We get focused on the doing of the job and we take our eye off the ball in terms of relationship building.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I think I've often felt that this is something maybe that we're more prone to when we come from this very technical, analytical background. You know, that this is my. These are where my strengths lie in. In analysis and numbers and. And so I feel like a lot of finance people do that they're very focused on.

Speaker B: You're making me laugh now because I'm thinking of all the finance people that I've worked with, and I think you're really right there because it's not necessarily their strong suite around building relationships.

Speaker C: And it's. It's also. So there's the analysis side and also this, you know, task delivery. They're working a lot to type deadlines. Uh, how do I end a month, or reporting deadlines, or, you know, they're in the listed space. What's, you know, a lot of deadlines, a lot of compliance and that. That promotes and they.

Speaker B: It's the same with technology. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm thinking it's the same in that field.

Speaker B: Yeah. You've got to get this piece of work out. Uh, you've got to get this piece. It's a, like, it's a routine. It's a rhythm. It's a. Yeah, it's a really good

Speaker C: point to raise and that that means even the people. And I think this was true of myself, actually, because I've always considered myself a people person, but because over the years you're trained in this way and you are respected, uh, and rewarded for this kind of task delivery and this technical expertise that you forget that there's this whole other dimension to becoming a leader. And I think. I think this is one of the big challenges when people move from more the technical expert into the leadership role. And then, okay, so in the leadership role now we need to focus more on the people because it is through relationships that we get stuff done. Um, it is through the conversations that we become more influential. And I think that is true both within the organization you work with, where you need to be building strong relationships. And it's also true in how do you keep your connections alive outside? You know, one of the things I said to this group this morning, we would talk about how do you stay in contact with people? How do you, how do you find the time? And I said, one of the things I think is really critical is prioritizing the time for. And I know, I mean, I look back, you know, my children are growing up now, but when I look back and go, that's really hard when you've got a family to go to a networking event.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but how can you build some of these things into. Maybe it's your monthly routine. Maybe it's catching up with one person each month.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: From a former, from a former job or employer. So that you may. Because otherwise what you find is you, you get to the point where you want to find your next gig and

Speaker B: you've not done it with anyone and you have.

Speaker C: And so then you feel really awkward about going to these people and saying, oh, I haven't been in touch for three years because you want something at

Speaker B: that point, whereas you have now I'm

Speaker C: looking for something and I want something.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Whereas if I could actually just keep this relationship alive by checking in with these people, you know, having a coffee to see, to ask their advice on something or to offer them help. You know what, how can I help you? It's about how can you. And seeing some of this time, this really, this time we spend on networking or having catch ups with people. This is part of my role. I used to get like, oh, I couldn't go out and I can't go out and have a coffee. Work hours. And now, uh, especially to women working in leadership, I'm saying this is part of your role because it's looking after your own career development. But actually there is a really positive. When you are happy in your role and you still maintain this. That is actually a great, um, development for your organization. You know, this is also talking about your organization out to other people and promoting your, your employer, potentially as a great employer, a great place to work. Uh, what are they doing in the market, in the industry? You know, it's really. I see it as promoting yourself and promoting the business. You're in. When you're, when you're in the happy space. So that when you're not in the happy space and you do want to tap in, you've already got these people in your network that you can go

Speaker B: to and they're keeping you abreast of what's going on as well. And I think, like, you know, you said, you know, monthly routine even it's like, you know, Friday. Carve out two hours on a Friday to work on your career rather than in yours, rather work on, work on the, um, the networking, the relationship building, the. Where do I want to go? What's the vision?

Speaker C: The reflect. I mean, that's so important as well. The, the reflection time. Carving out time and space to reflect on what do I really want and what. And what do I bring? You know, what are my, what are my strengths? How do I want to spend my time? And I think, you know, most of us get too busy to stop and have those conversations or whether it's a conversation, whether it's journaling, whether it's, you know, but it is so critical because otherwise we end up on a hamster wheel.

Speaker B: But it's also like, why am I working, where I'm working and what is my purpose there? Uh, what am I going after there? And then what will I be happy when that's delivered or that's done? What am I then going to do next? And what's my longevity here? Can I see myself? So if I'm there as a woman and there's no women in the senior leadership team, is it going to happen, uh, here in this organization or do I need to go somewhere else? Because from what I can see. Or am I having those conversations as well around.

Speaker C: And I think that's it. Yeah. Having the, having some of those really, sometimes really challenging conversations around. What are the opportunities here for me?

Speaker B: Yeah. And what, what do they say for you as well? Right. Because if they don't see it, then there's no point. You need to go somewhere. Like, if you, if your aspirations are, uh, to move to the next level or move into a more senior role and your boss is not going to support you in that, or you can't see it happening in that organization, then you need to. Yeah. Don't spend another three years there because it's not going to happen. Like, you've, you've found out it's visible, you can see it.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Super important. Super important. Uh, tell me then, you know women, we always, we talked about it briefly at the start about imposter syndrome. Um, can you share some experiences where you've had to overcome self doubt or imposter syndrome and then what did you learn from it?

Speaker C: It's always like, where to start because there are so many.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Ah, there are so many. Um, so, so interesting. There's one I do feel like, I mean, I remember even actually I was moving out of 10 years with this recruitment company I referred to, uh, you know, and I'd definitely been there a couple of years longer than I should have been, but I'd been there a long time and looking for this next role. And I was interviewed for this role, part time CFO with this private equity funds manager. And excuse me, the feedback I even got at uh, interview was, I mean these are good guys. I, uh, think she's stronger than she realized. Like, you know.

Speaker B: Oh, okay. Wow.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that actually we think she'd be great for our organization, but she's not really, you know, she's not really selling that. You know, she's not. But we can see on paper we think she's got all the attributes we need and she's lovely when we meet her, but she's not selling that. And so that, you know, that was like, oh, okay, I need to really start owning, you know, I need to step into. And I often, um, write and talk about, you know, executive presence and I think this is a piece about owning who you are and what you bring.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And really, you know, we sometimes women, more than men, feel uncomfortable about owning our own achievements. And how can I own my achievements? How can I articulate them? How can I ensure that I tell those stories when I'm looking for my new role?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it's not about glossing over the disasters because you can also frame the disasters into how. What did I learn?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: So, you know, I look back on the flip side. So that was, that was an interesting learning for me going through that process and having somebody actually act from the outside saying, you know, you're, you're presenting as not having the confidence that you can do this role and yet we actually think you can. So that was, you know, and so that was for me, challenging me to own it and reframe it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then on the flip side, something I had done earlier was I was running the finance team in this recruitment business and we decided there was a decision, you know, at the board level and I was the only, um, the only woman on a, you know, it's kind of a partnerships type of structure with five men. And we were progressed. We There was a decision taking that they wanted to move towards, uh, you know, a listing. Yeah, it was the thing at the time. So they were progressing towards that. And I knew I didn't have any experience in that, you know, in going through a listing or working in a listed environment. So we were building up towards this and I was doing a lot of the work with my team towards this, but I was also completely overworked, overwhelmed, stressed. You know, I knew I didn't have. Well, I believed I didn't have all the skills necessary and I didn't know how to go and get the support or the help to develop them.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yep.

Speaker C: And what I ended up doing, and I've framed this in, in many different ways over the years, was actually going to the, um, CEO or managing partner and saying, I can't, you know, I can't continue like this. We need a. And I'd always led the finance team. We need a CFO above me. So I was, I was called financial controller at the time, but I was the most senior finance person. I actually went and said, we need a CFO above me who has been through this before.

Speaker B: And can I just say, maybe you didn't though. Maybe you just needed that expertise from a consultant.

Speaker C: Absolutely, Sam. And that's how I look. So I, you know, first, uh, you

Speaker B: were like, I don't know this. And so I, Yeah. Bad about this rather than, where can I get this assistance.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: I think, like, I should know this.

Speaker C: Yes. I felt I should know this and I should just be able to handle it and take it all in my stride now, you know, who, who really.

Speaker B: Who does everything.

Speaker C: And, and I also, what I hadn't done and what I often counseled my clients on, uh, what I hadn't done was ensure that I had a strong enough team around me or just under me, you know, in terms of having to be. And I see it often, actually, I do too.

Speaker B: I know exactly what you're going to say.

Speaker C: Yeah. The finance, you know, the cfo, the C suite person, let's say, and the rest of the team down here and having too big a gap, rather than building people into what, What I could have done was bolster the team, have somebody running the day to day.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then worked really closely with advisors and consultants so that I could take the lead role.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: So I look back and I go, uh, that's one thing I could have done, but I let myself get in the hole too far.

Speaker B: Yeah, you've got a hand off.

Speaker C: You've got to yeah, you gotta hand. And I wasn't painting it. That's. Yeah, I was deal in too much the day to day detail. And you can't manage all the day to day. And actually thinking of it is even coming to mind now a client that I work with is working on a big transaction and trying to do too much of the regular day to day stuff herself. And those two things just are uh, too hot. You know, that's too much. And so you've got to choose which way you're going to go. And in the end I was too down in the day to day. So I asked and I can look back and go, actually on the one hand I felt like a failure because I'd asked and now looking back I can say, well, actually it was a really brave thing to do to get to that point, you know, to put my hand up and say, this is what we need.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: But of course then the third interpretation and I know if I went back and did it all again, I would have been handing the day to day over much earlier and finding ways to work with experts on this to really upskill me going back.

Speaker B: You would have said, I like to be the CFO and I need this to support me doing that. And because then you're fighting yourself.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, you know, so there, these are the, these are the things you learn sometimes. And one of the big, one of the big learn learnings from that was, you know, you don't have to do it all on your own and you don't have to, you don't have to make out that you've got everything under control.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: You need a, uh. And it's not necessarily, you know, you're not always going to share everything with your leadership peers, but you do need a space where you have a sounding board that somebody you can really trust to work through ideas and you need to be prepared to ask for help.

Speaker B: Yeah. And uh, you know, that can be both within an organization and also external to an organization.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. I agree.

Speaker B: You need those sounding boards at that, those senior levels to talk to people about, well, what would you do? Or what should I do? Or even just to acknowledge the situation that you've been. You're in and that you potentially put yourself in as well.

Speaker C: Yeah. Just even saying it out loud sometimes, you know, articulating it to somebody else starts a whole bunch of connections in your mind going, oh, okay, now I say it out loud.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: What does that mean? You know, how can I look at it differently or do something different?

Speaker B: Yeah. And then Understanding. Is this normal as well? Yeah. Is what I'm feeling normal or not normal?

Speaker C: Well, that does bring us back to the kind of imposter syndrome or the self doubts. It's really normal to have these moments and, you know, I think one of the best ways to get through them is to have support around you.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. You really need to build that network around you. Absolutely. So I could talk to you all day about this stuff. What do you think? What are your thoughts on the future of women in business and what steps do you believe are necessarily necessary to create more opportunities for women?

Speaker C: I think it goes back to what we said before, is that this is about addressing some of the systemic issues, um, in terms of. Really, it's a paradigm shift in the sense of. Rather than saying, well, this is how we do business in this very masculine dominated, you know, the, the corporations were formulated and, and formed and structured in a way that suited, you know, one major breadwinner winner and one partner at home doing, taking all the domestic responsibility. And um, I use the word partner because I have friends who, you know, have that flipped where the, the woman is the primary breadwinner and the husband is the primary carer. But how actually can we look at workplaces, uh, differently so that we have an opportunity to optimize all those different areas of our lives? There will be ages and stages where we do things differently and we choose to, but I think this is, you know, how we approach our systems and challenge. How could we do different? What could we do differently so that we support women and more flexibility in the workplace so that we really start to turn some of these ideas on their head? Um, I think that's, I think that's what we have to do because I think we need, in business, in politics, in life, we need more diverse voices.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: And I actually am. I actually always have been a big, um, supporter of targets and quotas as well, that if we don't take this stuff serious seriously, if we don't seriously hold leaders in organizations or political parties responsible and accountable for, uh, having more women in their teams at senior levels, then it won't change, you know.

Speaker B: So, yeah, I've always been a supporter of quotas as well, for that very reason that we need something to drive a change in behavior. And, um, and if we're not looking at the system holistically, then let's start with those and then let's evolve and move. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And when we would all hope that we get to a place where we don't need them. Anymore because it is such a, a natural given state of affairs that we have good rep, you know, that kind of 40, 40, 20 model, you know, that's, for me, that's where we want to get to. Absolutely. Uh, and, and in some areas we've made great progress, and in others there's still a huge amount to do.

Speaker B: Sue, thank you so much for being on the show. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Speaker C: Thank you, Sam. It's been great to be having this conversation with you. So I am, um, I'm easy to find on LinkedIn. That's, um, you know, and I'm very active on LinkedIn, sharing lots with people. Uh, or my website is suerosen.com beautiful.

Speaker B: Thank you. Such an important conversation. I think we're exactly on the same page. Um, and, uh, interesting to, for me to see it from the finance perspective versus tech. So, yeah, love the chat, I think.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks. Lots of similarities, I think, between finance and tech.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Hope you enjoyed the show.

Speaker A: Please leave a review and subscribe. And, um, that would really help out the show. Also, if you'd like to work with me, there's three ways that you can work with with me. You can sign up to my newsletter, weekly newsletter, where I send out, uh, actionable tips to help you in your career. You can sign up for some coaching. So I do coaching with women. And thirdly, I've got a new course which is coming out, which is called the Confidence Project. So the number one piece of, uh, feedback that I get from women is that there is in regards to their confidence and their ability, ability to be confident around their career. So, uh, check that out. Cheers.