Most Leaders Get This Wrong About Motivation | Dr. Lance Secretan

Narrator: I see you.

Narrator: Fire and Ash is now streaming on Disney. It's the film um, critics are calling the best avatar yet. A true epic and completely jaw dropping.

Narrator: This is the only pure thing in this world.

Narrator: Return to Pandora on Disney.

Dr. Lance Secretan: It will be an adventure for the

Narrator: whole fam and watch the Oscar winning phenomenon at home.

Dr. Lance Secretan: This is sick.

Narrator: Fire and Ash now streaming on Disney. Rated PG13 this episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new.

Dr. Lance Secretan: It can help you with practically anything

Narrator: on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses Setup required. Compatibility and availability varies. 18 Whatever your thing, it could be anything. Canva, uh, helps you make that thing a thing. Canva is a simple online tool thing. It's a way to design with our magic AI tool things you can social media your thing, generate images or videos of your thing, make decks or presentations to show your thing whatever needs to be done for your thing. Canva can make it an even better and bigger thing. Canva, uh, the thing that makes anything a thing.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Study and play come together on a

Narrator: Windows 11 PC and for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Get the unreal college deal everything you

Narrator: need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game. Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more@windows.com studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka mscollegepc when

Narrator: you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. That's Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed. Sponsored Jobs.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Inspiration doesn't come from the outside. And by the way, motivation has dark side too, which is fear. So fear drives motivation. We are afraid of not hitting the, uh, targets. We're afraid of not making our quotas, we're afraid of not hitting our budgets, et cetera, et cetera. In inspiration. We're not concerned with Those things, it's like the essential self I was measuring earlier with inspiration. This is filled by love. We are inspired by whatever we love, and we're motivated by whatever we fear.

Ademola Odewade: We are live. Ladies and gentlemen, you once again, welcome to the Kingdoms podcast and Diary of a cfo. And today I've got with me a very, very, very important guest, fighting out of Ontario, Canada, McWocum, Dr. Lance Sakrutan. How are you today, Dr. Lance? Thank you.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Thank you, Ellena. Good to be with you. Thank you for inviting me.

Ademola Odewade: Okay, thank you very much. And of course, like I always say, anytime a person shares their time with you, they're sharing their life with you, because the SI unit for measuring life is time. And, uh, before we hit the crux of the matter for today, we were just discussing before we hit the record button, today happens to be my brother's birthday, and of course, he's also in Canada with you. So I'm going to seize this opportunity to wish Adiraju, uh, Adewade a very, very happy birthday. And of course, Dr. Lance as well, is also wishing you a very happy birthday.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Yeah, that's an excellent thing. We want to make sure he has a wonderful day today.

Ademola Odewade: Yeah, uh, yes, amazing stuff, amazing stuff. So, uh, please sit back while I read the carefully curated, uh, introduction that I prepared for you. So, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another powerful episode of the Kingdom's Podcast and Diary of a cfo. Today we are joined by a man whose work has shaped leaders, organizations, and cultures across the globe. Dr. Lance Secretan is widely recognized as one of the world's foremost authorities on inspirational leadership. He is a former Fortune 100 CEO, leadership advisor, best selling author of more than 20 books, award winning speaker, and founder of the Secretary center, ranked among the world's leading leadership consulting organizations. His work has influenced hundreds of thousands of leaders and helped transform organizations into some of the most admired workplaces in the world. His accolades include being named among the world's most influential executive coaches and leadership experts. He is also the recipient of the International Kering Award, joining a distinguished group of recipients that includes global humanitarian leaders. Dr. Secretary, it is an honor and privilege to welcome you to the podcast.

Speaker E: Oh.

Ademola Odewade: So thank you. You have, uh, you're welcome. Always welcome, sir. You've actually had an extraordinary journey from academia to executive leadership, to becoming one of the world's leading voices on inspirational leadership. When you look back, what experiences most shaped your philosophy of leadership?

Dr. Lance Secretan: You know, one of the things I've looked at at Imola is the things that we do wrong, uh, not just in business, but everywhere. And it seems to me the very simple solution is to do the opposite thing. So if something is not working, for example, if you're mean to people, then, and that's not working, then why don't you try being nice to people? This is very simple stuff. Right?

Speaker F: So I got the.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Your listeners in England will remember or in the UK will know about Manpower. I was the founder of Manpower and built that business to the big organization it is today, along with all my colleagues. But I got that job as CEO when I was 27, and I didn't know anything about being a CEO. So what I remembered, though, is the boss I had before, who was the boss from hell. And so whenever I was faced with a decision, I would ask myself, what would my boss do? My former boss, I'm going to do the opposite. And we build some business with a hundred thousand employees.

Ademola Odewade: Wow, that, that is amazing. You know, when you were leading these large organizations, what leadership myths did you discover were completely wrong?

Dr. Lance Secretan: So many. So many. And I've written about this, in fact, one book, the Bellwether Effect, is just about all the things we do that really upset people. You understand? Perhaps if I mention it this way, whenever I make a speech, I ask the audience, what proportion of the population do you think would give up their day jobs if we had a free choice? And the audience usually said 50%, somebody will say 60%, somebody will say 70%, somebody will say 80%. And that's where it stops. Always. I've done this hundreds of times. Always 80%. Now, remember, we spend $170 billion a year on leadership development. We have thousands of universities teaching leadership. We've, uh, got consulting companies everywhere and keynote speakers and what have you, all promoting leadership. And eight out of 10 people would leave if they could. What does that tell us? Tells us things are broken really badly. And so, you know, there are people who call themselves refugees from the corporate world and former addicts of corporate America and so on. And it's true, it's like a disease for most people. So it's like the freedom that we're all looking for, which doesn't exist. So I've learned a lot about, uh, what we have got wrong about modern business. But if I give you just a couple of examples, the performance appraisal is the worst idea we ever came up with. Nobody ever feels good about it, not the person who has the performance appraisal, nor the person who does it. And there's no results and do you know 80% of people who've just had a performance appraisal suffer decline in performance immediately afterwards? Why would you do that? That's so stupid. Why would you even start. And anyway, it doesn't achieve anything. Now let's talk about engagement surveys, mission statements, compensation plans, your levels of compensation, which we see in large organizations. Dehumanizing, uninspiring and creative, broken culture. These are just some of the things we do in modern business, which, not to mention holding the eruption, irrelevant meetings, PowerPoint presentations that go nowhere, and so on.

Ademola Odewade: Wow. I think from what you said.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Okay, I'm just going to mention one thing. One of the rules I've learned is that I look to a domestic situation first and say, would this work there? For example, would I do a performance appraisal with my wife? Hi, honey. This is our annual group and we will talk about budget and we'll talk about 360s and a little feedback and talk about, uh, some surveys we're doing

Speaker F: about how people think about you and so on.

Dr. Lance Secretan: I mean, you would get divorced.

Narrator: Why?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Because it's demoralizing, it's, it's insidious, it's negative, it's judgmental, critical. It's horrible. Why would, we wouldn't do that at home? Why would you do it at work? So this is my, this is my kind of touchstone. Would I do this at home? If I don't want to do it at home, then I shouldn't do it at work either.

Ademola Odewade: Uh, amazing stuff. Amazing stuff. And I think I totally agree with you as well. And uh, something that really, what I say tickled my fancy with what you said is the engagement surveys. I always think engagement surveys are uh, like the fakest things in a corporate world. Right. Docares, what do you expect the employees to say? Right. And uh, in terms of the performance appraisal, I believe it should be ongoing feedback. Real time feedback. Real time feedback is very much more effective. But, uh, I'll leave it to the expert because you are the pro and I am the Joe. So I'd like for you to shed more light on it.

Dr. Lance Secretan: You're right. Yeah. And I mean, you wouldn't wait six months to find out how your wife is doing, so that's just ridiculous.

Ademola Odewade: So, so many people actually pursue success, but few pursue significance and relevance. At what point did you realize that leadership was ultimately about seven something that, that is bigger than yourself?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, I, uh, there are lots of sources of that, but you know, I describe this as the essential self and the social self. And I'll explain what, what I mean. So the social self measures success. That's the way it calibrates. And it calibrates externally all the time. Will people like me, Will I be successful? Do I look nice? Do you like my hat? Do I have a nice house? Nice car? Am I making a lot of money when I get promoted? You're all external measures of success. That's the social self. The essential self doesn't look outside, looks inside. Does this conform to my values? Does this bring joy? Is this the right thing to do? Is it virtuous? Is it morally sound? Will it make the world better? Is it a gift to other people? And so on, uh, those kinds of questions that I call the essential self. So now the question becomes, who is speaking? And one of the questions we can ask ourselves is, who is? What are you teaching when you're not speaking? The metaphor for that is, supposing I was in a room with you, Elamola, and in walks the Dalai Lama. He sits in the corner in a chair, doesn't say anything for 15 minutes, gets up and walks out. We will have been inspired. He didn't say anything. We're inspired by who he is. This is how we inspire people. Not by what we know or what we say or how smart we are, but by who we are, the kind of person we are.

Ademola Odewade: I think, uh, that is actually very deep. But speaking of the essential self, was there, uh, a personal adversity or defining moment that changed how you view people, purpose and leadership?

Narrator: Trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade, bringing you an expanding library of education with even more ways to sharpen your trading skills. Access new online courses, insightful webcasts, articles, engaging videos, and more, all curated just for traders. Plus guided learning paths with content designed to fit your unique interests. No sifting to find exactly what you need so you can spend your time learning to trade brilliantly. Learn more@schwab.com Trading this episode is brought

Narrator: to you by State Farm. You know, those friends who support your preference for podcasts over music on road trips? That's the energy State Farm brings to insurance. With over 19,000 local agents, they help you find the coverage that fits your needs so you can spend less time worrying about insurance and more time enjoying the ride. Download the State Farm app or go online@statefarm.com like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now@palmolive.com tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Onobotulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.

Narrator: Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

Narrator: Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.

Dr. Lance Secretan: No, I'm asked that question a lot. Uh, it's like, uh, what was the Eureka moment that transformed everything? No, it wasn't that at all. It's the kind of thing that I mentioned before where I thought to myself, I'm faced with a decision. Now I have to make the decision about acquisition or about firing someone or hiring someone or building a new location or something. What would my previous boss do? So as I mentioned earlier, I just sort of stumbled on things that did not work. And then, you know, when I first arrived in the UK, so I came to, uh, the UK to run manpower, as I said at 27. But I found people with telephones in their drawers that they didn't use and I'm thinking, who's running this place? Why would these people do that? So one of the first things we did was say, well, that's not working. Let's tape all the phones out. And we don't have to pay for phones sitting in drawers. That's silly. So these are the kinds of things that, you know, there's no Eureka moment. It's a constant, incremental Kaizen moment, really, where improvements are happening day by day, minute by minute, as you see things unfold, and hopefully you kick it on in and get better and better and better.

Ademola Odewade: Well, I love the Japanese concept of kaizen. You know, that concept of getting 1% better every day. And it's something that I, on a personal basis, try, try to do. So given context. For example, I started this podcast, uh, November 2023, and it's currently ranked in the global top 2%, right? And people ask me, well, how did you get to the global top 2%? The answer is Kaizen. Basically, people do not see the lead to improvements on a daily basis. But then, you know, when you just take a snapshot in time, they just get to see, oh, you move from 0.0 to.1000. But Kaizen is very, very important. And of course, I would love to encourage our, our listeners to, to practice, uh, the concept of Kaizen. But, uh, in terms of inspiration, you, you, you, you speak often about inspirational leadership, and I understand that a lot of people tend to confuse inspiration with motivation. So how is inspiration fundamentally different from motivation?

Dr. Lance Secretan: I, uh, will answer that in a second. Let me just go back to Kaizen for a minute. One of the other mistakes we've made in business is to think about business as a freestanding, independent, different business. It's kind of like a different part of our lives. So, you know, I wake up in the morning with my family, and they love me, and I love them. I go to work and I can't talk about love anymore. I can't even say I love someone at work. It's not allowed. I get into trouble, I get harassment. HR doctor will get after me, and so on. How did we invent two separate worlds at the same world? So Kaizen, for example, works just as well at home as it does in the family. One of the things we need to learn, I think, is that we need to treat people at work the same way we treat them anywhere. They aren't functions, they aren't different, they're just the same people, but they're in different places. That's all. And so Kaizen, the More. I use this in my own life. Kaizen. I asked my wife, how can I love you better if I can love my wife 1% better every single day? Wouldn't that be amazing?

Ademola Odewade: Amazing.

Dr. Lance Secretan: We would not. Yeah, we wouldn't have 55% marriages failing every year. We wouldn't. And so on. So now to your other question about inspiration and motivation. So motivation again is external. I'm motivated by money, by prestige, by success, by promotions, by trinkets, you know, like awards, trips to lovely places and so on. All these kinds of things. They're all motivational. So when you see a sales department, for example, the sales manager will motivate the salespeople with incentives and bonuses and trips and uh, and so on. Inspiration doesn't come from the outside. And by the way, motivation has dark side too, which is fear. So fear drives motivation. We are afraid of not hitting the targets, we're afraid of not making our quotas, we're afraid of not, um, hitting our budgets, et cetera, et cetera. In inspiration, we're not concerned with those things. It's like the essential self I was measuring earlier with inspiration. This is fueled by love. We are inspired by whatever we love and we're motivated by whatever we fear. Therefore, they're almost opposite, if you want. And by the way, and this is part of our dilemma today in modern business, we built everything on a platform of motivation. Our entire human resources philosophy and procedures is based on motivation. Do this, you get a promotion. Do this and you'll get fired, basically. I mean, that's a crude statement, but it's various levels of that. And in the case of inspiration, you know, people start up, uh, in computer businesses or technology businesses in their garage. They're not paid, they don't make any money, they're not getting anything. They're inspired. They have a dream about what they can achieve. If we could bring that back to the modern organization and understand the difference, stop motivating people and start inspiring them. We change the world.

Ademola Odewade: Amazing stuff. And you know, it's such a great way to segue to the next question that I have for you. It is about fear based leadership. Why do so many organizations still rely on fear based leadership despite, you know, the massive amount of data and evidence that shows that it is a very limited approach?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, one of the reasons I think, and I'm not sure I know the full answer to this, because it's a mystery to me too, but humans copy. We're very good copiers. That's how we learn. That's how we practice whatever it is we do think about anything. If it's music or art or carpentry or plumbing or electrician or writing or whatever, we look to masters and we copy them. We learn from them and copy them. So most of the things that don't work in modern business came from the military. Performance appraisals, for example. Performance appraisals came from the Air Force because in the Second World War particularly, we needed pilots. Pilots were like young men of 20, 21, 22, somewhere around there, and very, very youthful. And of course, they were getting killed. So we have to find new pilots to replace them. So we help invent something called performance appraisal, which was great for training pilots, but doesn't work in the modern organization. Mission statements, the same that came from the military as well. So we've imported a lot of ideas from the military, even use language like battle and war zones and all the rest of it targets and battle plans and mission statements. And all of us, that's all military. The second thing is that we copy big companies. So the very large companies, you know, Fortune, shall we say, top 50 fortune companies, and, uh, the largest companies in the world, we copy them. They're successful, they make a lot of money and so on. But there's a problem because they're public companies, and Most of those CEOs are working towards a quarterly deadline of reporting statistics. And so they do what they need to do for that to make sure the share price goes up, not what they need to do to make people happy or to protect the environment or to inspire. These things could cost money. Imagine, for example, switching out of fossil fuels to alternative energy in your company, and the fact that that would hit the bottom line and the shareholders will go crazy. So you don't do the right thing. You do whatever it takes. So all the small companies copy these big companies. And here we are.

Ademola Odewade: Uh, interesting, interesting take on this. I strongly believe that culture is a, uh, very, very important part of leadership. And if you were to be advising a CEO today whose company's culture is deteriorating right now, what would be the first set of things or the first three actions you would advise them to take, or what would be the things you would advise them to examine in their organization?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Adam or I have an app on, um, phone which you can download. It's called Spirit at Work. Spirit. Little round a work car. It is 77 different cars. And I just want to tell you this little story. So, uh, an organization, what we do is we, we on zoom. We have groups of people who show up with me. And for 13 weeks, we just shake the phone. Because when you shake the phone, it shuffles the cards and the card is picked, and we talk about that card. So this company hires me to work with their leadership team in group coaching, and all we do is shake the cards. Now, in the first week, they're having the worst year in their history. Week 13, they're having the best year they'd ever had. We never talked about one business thing like goals, targets, strategy, none of that. The only thing we talked about were the cards. And the cards produce words like intimacy, courage, authenticity, truthfulness, love, and so on. Now, if you spend 13 weeks, one hour a week, if you and I did this, for example, and I ask you, so, Ademola, what does intimacy mean to you? Are there any examples of intimacy in your life that you'd like to share? What about your colleagues? Do you ever have a sense of intimacy with them at all? And so on 13 weeks of this, we get to know each other really well. And that is the key to culture. Because what actually happens in most organizations, we don't know each other. We know superficial stuff like where you live and whether you have children or not and what gender you are and where you were at school, maybe a few other things where you live. That's about it. We don't know what you hurt, what you dream about, where your pain is, and so on.

Ademola Odewade: Hi there. Are you a professional or business owner? Teaching investors or sharing big ideas about your presentations just are not keeping up with your vision? That's exactly why I use Gamma App. Our, uh, proud partners. Gamma is an AI powered platform that helps you build beautiful decks, documents, and web pages in just minutes. No complicated formatting, no design headaches. Just clean, modern presentations that communicate your ideas clearly and professionally. If you want to present like a pro, sign up today using the tool stack. Link in the description below and start creating smarter Gamma App. Okay, so. So speak. Still speaking about organizational culture, I strongly believe that there are hidden costs of toxic leadership. So what would you say are, uh, the hidden costs of toxic leadership that most executives fail to recognize?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, remember we were talking earlier about engagement surveys and how useless they are? You probably know that Gallup's annual survey of employee engagement is the lowest it's been in 50 years. We've been doing employment engagement surveys, employee engagement surveys, for 40 years. Look where we are. It doesn't get any better. It gets worse. And we keep measuring it. What's the point? So one of the things I think we need to Understand about all this is that we just need, as I said earlier, to treat people the same way we treat them everywhere else. So what should we do in modern organizations? We should understand these are human beings and that they are there, um, their pleasure, not yours, and they will stay as long as they can. Just imagine this. Imagine if a company is doing really well right now, and I ask my clients this all the time. How would you do to think if every employee in the organization was inspired, what difference would that make? And you know the story I was telling you earlier about these people that got together for 13 weeks with me and then had the best year in their history. What happened was they got to know each other and they got to collaborate and work together and respect each other and actually love each other. That's an important word in business, which we're not allowed to use. But we need to because we're humans and humans, we need to love each other. And so these people really bonded together, and as a consequence, they're calling each other. How can I help you, Ademola? I don't know what you're working on this week, but do you need any help from me? And so on. That never happened before. They didn't even know each other. Most of them are working virtually, so they don't even see each other. So we've got a world where it's very upside down right now. And these are the things that help. So what would I do with culture to change the culture? I would make sure that people feel seen, heard, respected, and, uh, elevate them as much as I possibly can. And in particular, make sure that work is inspiring. Because I want them to get up in the morning and say, the most inspiring part of my life is my work. That's where I'm going now, not where I have to go to work.

Ademola Odewade: Interesting. So, wow. Uh, it's interesting how it feels like toxic leadership is like self sabotage. I've had Dr. Bruno Signako.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Yeah.

Ademola Odewade: The author of. The author of the Art of Compassionate Business, on the podcast previously. And he. In his book. Yeah. Shout out to Dr. Bruno because he did send me a copy, a signed copy of his book, the Art of Compassionate, uh, business. He provided empirical evidence of how companies that practice compassionate business outperform. Ah, Companies that, you know, practice toxic leadership. But why do the organizations that achieve extraordinary performance while maintaining a deeply human culture, why is it that they achieve such kind of performance and, uh, their bottom line improves?

Dr. Lance Secretan: So why do they. They hold on to their old ideas?

Ademola Odewade: Do you mean, like, what. What are the reasons why the organizations that practice compassionate business. Right. Why is that they tend to outperform the organizations that still hold on to toxic leadership?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, these are leaders that have a heart, and their vision goes beyond the metrics and also beyond themselves. I remember talking to a CEO, and I said to him, you know, I think this, this would be a good idea if you introduce the concept of inspiration and so on. Then he said, you know what, Lance? I'm only going to be CEO for five years. It doesn't matter after I'm gone, uh, it's irrelevant. So I'm. I'm only concerned about the next five years. You know, this is the mentality of so many people in large organizations. This was a very big company, and it's about how many millions of money can I make? And that's all dependent on the share price and the bottom line. And I don't want to dismiss that. That's important, too. I'm not saying this is bad. I'm just saying it's not the only thing. There are human beings here. We actually need to inspire them. Wow.

Ademola Odewade: Interesting. So I'm actually a millennial, right? And I feel like I'm sandwiched between the generational wars, right? So currently we have five generations. We have the baby boomers, the generation X, my generation, which is a generation Y. We have the generation Z and the generation Alpha. Right? And for the very first time, I stand to be corrected. For the very first time in humanity, we are experiencing a rate of technological evolution that is advancing even faster than the rate of human adaptation. So what would you say true leadership looks like in today's AI driven world experience?

Narrator: A membership that backs what you're building with American Express Business Platinum. Get 2 times Membership Rewards points per dollar on eligible purchases in key business categories, as well as on each eligible purchase of $5,000 or more on up to $2 million in eligible purchases per calendar year. American Express American Express Business Platinum there's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn more@american express.com Business Platinum

Ademola Odewade: this episode

Narrator: is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month, with three days free. Build your own multiview. Choose up to three streams and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights and instant replays. The FIFA World cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. Do you hear that? Sounds like breakfast is ready. Because Quaker's coming in hot with morning nutrition, 100% whole grain oats and a good source of fiber to fuel the rhythm of your morning and kickstart your day. And that sounds, um, absolutely delicious. Fuel to start. Whatever's next. Quaker. Official sponsor of FIFA World Cup 26. Let's go. The Colonels cooked up a new $10

Dr. Lance Secretan: bucket of the day just for you. Monday, 24 nuggets for $10.

Narrator: Tuesday, eight piece fried chicken for $10.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Wednesday, 10 wings for $10. Thursday, eight tenders for $10. Friday, 24 nuggets for.

Narrator: Ooh, you guessed it, didn't you?

Dr. Lance Secretan: $10 finger licking machine. The $10 bucket of the day deal.

Narrator: Every weekday only at KFC.

Dr. Lance Secretan: It's finger licking.

Narrator: Good prices and participation. Variable supplies last.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Not available on third party ordering platforms.

Speaker E: Tax extra.

Narrator: I wrote a little song to remind you. Choice hotels get you more of the experiences you value. The Cambria Hotel's got it all. A rooftop bar. Have a ball, bring a date, your

Narrator: squad or even your mom.

Narrator: Book direct@ChoiceHotels.com.

Dr. Lance Secretan: well, you've got two subjects going there. AI and generational, uh, groups. Personally, I'm not a fan of generational identification because I think it's about attitude, not chronological age. Doesn't matter how old you are. You know, I come from something called the silent generation. I'm 87 years old, but I don't feel 87. I don't identify with that genre, the Silent Generation. That's the genre that was born before the last, the Second World War. So this is kind of silly, you know, don't put me in that box. I'm much more like a millennial in my thinking activity. The things I do, the interests I have, my friends and so on. And so stop doing that. That's pigeonholing me and sticking in boxes that I don't belong to. So I think that's an issue there now with AI yes, there are some issues. We know what they could be. I mean, we put, uh, AI on a bomb and it's highly dangerous. There are lots of we've got to be careful about with AI but aside from that, it's just no different than, for example, you may not remember this because you're too young, but there was a time when the calculator was introduced and everybody said, oh, nobody will be able to count anymore, we won't be able to do math anymore, and everybody will be cheating on their exams and so on. This is a calculator now. We have them on our phones and on our computers everywhere. There's nothing. AI is the same. AI is a tool, and it will help us, and already has and has helped me enormously. I'm sure it does for you. I'm more productive than I've ever been because AI, uh, is helpful, and I use it that way. And that's the benefit, uh, the same way that I use a shoehorn to put my shoes on and I use an ignition key to start my car and so on. These are tools. There's nothing wrong with them. They're helpful. And that's the way I see AI. I think we're just getting overexcited about this. We should focus on the dangerous side. That's a problem. And I don't know what that looks like or how we deal with it. Maybe we can't, I don't know. But the positive side is fabulous.

Ademola Odewade: Interesting take. I want to talk about your book, the Bellwether Effect. It challenges conventional business thinking. What really inspired you to write that book, the Bellwether Effect?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, it's really the last book I wrote, uh, two more books since then. It's the last book I wrote about business. Everything I've written, I've written 24 books. And everything I've written up until that point, including that book, was really about how to be a more inspiring leader. And so this book was really a piece of research. I've done research like this in the past, which is unconventional because it works this way. I want to find out, as I mentioned earlier in this podcast, what doesn't work, and then I'll do the opposite. So think about compensation plans. You know, we pay leaders. First of all, the disparity between CEOs and the average pay is, like, now 390 times. Follow me. So the average CEO earns 390 times more than the average median salary. This is gross. It doesn't make any sense at all. So our, uh, compensation plans are completely messed up. And not only that, but in large organizations you get salary levels and so on, and it kind of feels like working for the government, there's a structure, it's kind of suffocating and so on. Compare that with the entrepreneurial world. You know, I've been, for example, working for myself for a long time, uh, as a consultant, and I don't pay myself a salary. I see what's left over at the end of the year, and if I got any money left, I spend it. You know, it's about a matter of having a salary level depending on how large my organization gets, and just stupid Thinking. So one of the things we've, we've, we need to look at is how do we pay people in terms of their skill and contribution. And I would change it altogether. In fact, when I was running Manpower, we, we built something which I've written about in the Bell weather effect called values based compensation. So what I did was I said, okay, so here's the salary that you're making based on market conditions. That's the base. But you have a variable income depending on how well, uh, we do. And you have two ways to, to contribute. One, you can save money, cut costs, that increases margins, and I will share the margins with you, or you can increase revenues and, or margins that increases profits as well. So you've got to either way reduce costs or increase revenues. And what we did at the end of the year was we isolated the change in the gross margin and shared that with all of the employees. So they had a stake, an entrepreneurial stake in the growth of the business. We didn't have a salary compensation plan like big companies. We had a profit sharing plan and we shared that. And I went on the road with uh, all our offices and all the cities we had offices in and did a, uh, presentation showing them how their money was earned, how we did the calculation, where it came from, how we could do better next time in the next quarter, and so on. So we had an ongoing conversation where everybody in the company was involved with ideas, suggestions and so on. And so anybody who came up with an idea that saved us money was a contributor which we needed to recognize. Anybody who came up with a big sale or improved the margin on a contract, again, we need to celebrate those people. So we don't need a salary level. We need an individually tailored plan where people share in the overall success of the business and by the way, the pain if that should happen. So when a recession comes, we all tighten our belts and we all realize we're not going to get much out of this for a little while, until this just gets better.

Ademola Odewade: I very much love the idea of celebrating, you know, people who contribute value to, to the bottom line of the business. But from your experience, what, what would you say are, uh, the m most dangerous leadership trends that are currently being celebrated in business today?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, I think we've talked about some of them. Uh, I think the bureaucratic stuff that goes on in organizations drives people crazy. So if that's true, why don't we stop it? I think regulation is another issue and I think many governments are trying to tackle that. But the procedural gaps of time that it takes to get, for instance, a new building permit or, uh, you know, an opportunity to get a major share issue or bank transaction. It takes months and months. That's silly. We should, we need to move faster than an age about AI. This is ridiculous. We need to catch up. So some of those things I think are mistakes that we make and that slow us down. When I was at Manpower, we built this business from scratch to a hundred thousand employees. And at that point, Adamola M. I wondered what's next. In fact, when we started, I swore we would never have the corporate trappings of big companies, like no, uh, function, no legal department, no risk or insurance departments, et cetera. And 14 years later, we had them all. You know, the inert, the impetus within organizations, sort of natural energy that goes on in bureaucracies just automatically builds these things. And, and you have to have a very strong leader who says, stop it, you don't need this. Because in my opinion, if I were to run a company again, it's not going to happen. But if I were, I would change the titles of every employee to coach, marketing, coach it, coach people, coach and so on. Uh, because every leader is actually a coach. That's the job. We're here to coach other people and help them grow and do better.

Ademola Odewade: I love the, I love the concept of, uh, you know, coaching. And I think that that leads me to the next question for you, which is that the concept of the bellwether effect. I would appreciate for you to briefly explain the concept of the bellwether effect and why it matters now more than ever.

Speaker F: Right.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, the bellwether effect refers to a phenomenon where people see something happening and then they copy it and therefore contribute to the growth of that movement. Uh, the bellwether effect is true, for example, with somebody, say, like Taylor Swift, where you and I might have never heard of Taylor Swift, but we know a lot of people who have and we know that she's enormously successful. So we get on the bandwagon, you know, have a look what's going on there and so on. That's the bellwether effect. It's kind of a flywheel, you know, it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And for the reasons I mentioned earlier, like, uh, the military history of how we run organizations, metrics that were all chained to as public companies, these things cause us to all copy each other and do the same thing that everybody does. And in the end you've got a homogeneous series of corporations that all look the same basically, and they all run the same way they run even today on the same computer systems. And the same. Like Salesforce, for example. Just about every large company uses Salesforce or Oracle or whatever. There's only three or four choices. And so, you know, we're, we're in a place where we're beginning to all just look the same with each other and copy each other. That's the bellwether effect. And the bellwether effect has led us to a place where we consistently, repeatedly do things that upset and piss off people.

Ademola Odewade: I think that's actually very, very relatable. Highly, highly relatable. And you know, when you look at organizations today, they're more concerned with compliance than transformation. What leadership behaviors would you say create transformation rather than compliance?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Because they're motivated. Remember I said motivation is fear based. They're afraid of upsetting the shareholders, of turning in a poor result. This is. Fear is a major issue for any, anybody in most, not just the leaders, but just about everybody in the corporation. So they don't change because they're frightened. Now, if they were inspired and passionate and compassionate, in other words, if they loved the people they worked with and loved what they were doing, then it would be an inspiring environment. And they would say, if you think about a company like Patagonia, Patagonia would say to shareholders, back off. I'm not going to produce a good number this quarter because we're going to do something for the environment this quarter. And those shareholders supported him because this was a company with values. It was a company that aspired to something higher than just the quarterly report and so on. So when we work for organizations like that, Anita Roddick in the UK used to be like that in the Body Shop. And that's. She's passed away, of course, and Body Shop's now part of a big corporation, so it's not the same anymore. And that happens.

Ademola Odewade: Interesting. You know, a large population of the listeners of this podcast are actually entrepreneurs. So basically the audience is primarily comprised of entrepreneurs and career professionals. Right. So I like for you to speak to the entrepreneurs right now. What lessons can they learn from organizations that consistently outperform, uh, their competitors over decades?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, it sounds trite to say this, and it's sort of a cliche, but we don't really respect people in organizations. You've probably seen what's been happening, especially in technology. We're refiring 8, 10, 20,000 people at a time and just laying them off. And we don't even do it by sitting down with them. You send them emails and actually we say, go home, we're going to send you an email tomorrow. And they know what's going to happen. They know what the email says. It's brutal, absolutely brutal. Can you imagine doing that at home? So we just don't respect people. So if we were to respect people in a book called One I wrote a story about a man, uh, who I got to know in Alaska. He had a group of lodges that people went to stay in camp in the wilderness in Alaska. And when 911 happened, his business disappeared basically. And so he sat down with everybody and this is the important part here. He didn't say, okay, I have to lay off all my staff because I don't have anybody coming to the lodges anymore. He called everybody together and he said, we have a problem. We, not I or you, we have a problem. Let's talk about what we do about this problem. What are your suggestions? One person said, I will take a job somewhere else until this blows over, then I'll come back. The person said, I'll work three days a week. Another person said, you can give me a pay cut. Another person said, I won't take any vacations and so on. Another person said, well, I'll uh, take a part time job to support my income here and I'll take a cut and so on. All of these suggestions went up. The recession passed and 911 became history and they all started to recover and people started returning and so on. And then one day after all this and some people of course had left, Many, many had left because they, and they said, you know, it'll help you if I leave and go and work for another company and get paid by them so you don't have my salary. So one day he gets a phone call saying one of his lodges is on fire and it's way back in the, in the back bush. Nobody can get to it and access, you can only get there with water, by water and so on. So he calls his own team and says, I need help, uh, we need to go out to this lodge and put out a fire because the fire department is overwhelmed with other fires and they can't get there. And then he calls all of the ex employees that left during a time when he was considerate during the 911 crisis. And they all came and they put the fire out. This is what happens when you're compassionate and you care about other people because they will pay you back. And that contribution, that kind of energy, that level of inspiration is, is what makes the difference.

Speaker E: Before we dive back into today's conversation. I want to share something important. This episode includes a paid partnership with BetterHelp, a platform designed to make starting therapy easier. I know from my own journey as a leader and entrepreneur that life can sometimes feel overwhelming. There are seasons where stress, uncertainty and pressure build up and you need a safe space to process it all. That's where therapy comes in. Therapy isn't only for people facing clinical challenges. It's a, uh, space to reflect, grow, and find better ways to manage stress, relationships, and personal goals. It takes courage to seek help, but it's also one of the smartest investments you can make in your mental and emotional wellbeing. That's why I'm proud to highlight BetterHelp. With BetterHelp, simply fill out a short questionnaire and get matched with a credentialed therapist in just a couple of days. If the first match doesn't feel like the right fit, you can easily switch therapists at no extra cost until you find someone who truly connects with you inside the platform. You'll also find tools like journaling and group sessions on different topics that can support your growth. And with over 7,000 reviews and a, uh, 4.5 Trustpilot RatingHelp is a platform you can rely on. So if you feel like you'd benefit from talking to a therapist, visit betterhelp.com forward/KingDames that's betterhelp.comKingDames to get 10% off your first month of therapy. Once again, this is a paid partnership with BetterHelp and I encourage you to take that first step. If you've been thinking about it, sometimes the best investment you can make is in yourself.

Narrator: Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

Dr. Lance Secretan: I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium

Narrator: Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you

Dr. Lance Secretan: to Mint Mobile today.

Narrator: I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com

Narrator: switch upfront um, payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to 15 dol month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

Dr. Lance Secretan: See full terms@mintmobile.com the right window treatments change everything.

Narrator: Your sleep, your privacy, the way every

Dr. Lance Secretan: room looks and feels.

Narrator: @blinds.com We've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure right now. Get up to 50% off with minimum purchase. Plus get a free professional measure@blinds.com rules and restrictions apply. I'm Glenn Washington, host of Snap Judgment from kqed. Every week, snapdraps you inside someone's biggest decision, the kind of decision you can only make once. With everything on the line, what do you believe? What do you want? And what would you risk to get it? Find out. Tap to listen now to Snap Judgment from KQED on Spotify. Stitch Fix. Stop shopping. Get styled. Not today, sweatpants.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Somebody's wearing jeans that fit. Wow.

Narrator: No photos, please.

Dr. Lance Secretan: I'm just a regular dad who happens

Ademola Odewade: to have a stylist.

Dr. Lance Secretan: I really look my best when someone else makes the decisions.

Narrator: Hey, we can all see you.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Two way mirrors. Just share your size, style, and budget, and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door.

Narrator: Stitch Fix. Get started today@stitch fix.com.

Dr. Lance Secretan: i want to hug you. I'm going to hug you.

Speaker F: I'm coming. I'm coming in for a, uh, hug.

Narrator: The most memorable gifts aren't found. They're made. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product, a mug, a card, a tote, a phone case, and make it personal. A photo, a name, an inside joke. The kind of gift that actually fits the person. That's what 30 million customers have been coming back to Zazzle for over 20 years to find. Right now, save 25% on your first order@zazzle.com. that's zazzle.com. make it zamazing.

Ademola Odewade: Okay, there we go. So when I actually look at your body of work, something stands out for me, and it is the fact that you've actually helped organizations to become places that are admired to work in. So what would you say separates the average culture from an inspirational culture?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, I think a lot of things, so probably we'd need another conversation to list them all. But if you only think about the metrics and the numbers, then that's a culture that's going to be negative. And if you are a thinking primarily about people and also about numbers, in other words, priority one and priority two, you'll have a successful culture. It's pretty simple. I don't mean it's easy because it takes time and we make mistakes and we don't get it right. And we can't guess at everybody's personality profile and, uh, their reactions to things and so on. So it's kind of messy, but it works better than simply focusing on the metrics. And, uh, some of these places, like Amazon, for example, where workers have to pee in bottles because they're not allowed to take time off to go to the bathroom and so on, that kind of culture is efficient if you can just churn through people because they keep leaving and you have to recruit more people, it's efficient if you build that into your cost structure, but it doesn't inspire people. Amazon employees, for example, these are not happy people.

Ademola Odewade: Shots fired. So how can leaders create that kind of, You know, Amazon is, is a super giant, right? And of course it's, uh, a place that employs millions of employees. So this is serious shots been fired. But, but how can the leaders create belonging, you know, in increasingly fragmented workplaces?

Dr. Lance Secretan: I'm not sure you can. And maybe size is part of our problem. We have a company in Canada called Magna. Magna was started by an, um, Austrian immigrant in the 1950. What Magna does, it makes automotive after parts, so all kinds of parts for cars. And they have grown over the years. Now 50 years later, they make, they even make whole cars when they make the BMW Zs, Ezekiel Z4. Now I think they make windshields, running boards, dashboards, uh, the interiors, airbags, you know, seats, all kinds of things now. So this company is a multi, multi billion dollar business, one of the largest on the planet. And no unit in that business is bigger than 100 people. That's how he succeeded so well, because he believes you have to know the birthdays of every employee, you have to know the names of their spouses and children. You have to know what their hobbies are, where they live. You have to understand them individuals. And you can't do that with more than 100 people. So what he does is every time businesses grow to 100 or 120 or something, he says split it, split 60 off and start again, and we keep multiplying. He's got hundreds of businesses all over the world that are 100 people or more. Some just because of the scale of what's been made, are bigger now, 300 people and so on, because they're making whole cars. And you can't do that with just 100 people. So, uh, it's changing a little bit. But the business was built on the basis of keeping it entrepreneurial, small and human.

Ademola Odewade: I like that concept because, you know, the larger an organization becomes, the more difficult it becomes to, what I say, have control of that organization. But what would you say is a role of values, of Course, a, uh, lot of organizations just have what I say, values on papers. But what is the role of values that are, uh, internalized? What's, what role does it play in long term organizational success?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, I think if you mean real values, values we actually believe in and live every day is very important. If you mean the thing we hang up in the lobby and, uh, never look at again, but we promote on our websites and so on, no value at all, actually. It's hypocrisy because we don't actually live them. So let's talk about values for a minute. So remember I said earlier, one of the things I've learned is to look at things that don't work and then reverse them. So a piece of early research we did years ago was what do people not like about people? Not like. That's the opposite of almost all research most people would research. What do people like about people? Let's do that again. We were doing the opposite here. What did people not like about doom? Here's what they said, six things. They said, we don't like cowards, we don't like people who are phony, we don't like selfish people, we don't like liars, we don't like people who use fear. And we don't like idiots, incompetent people. So we said, okay, what's the opposite of that? The opposite of that is courage, authenticity, service, truthfulness, love and effectiveness. That spells an acronym of casa. This is called, therefore the Castle Principles. These are a set of values, and these values are used by millions of people, by thousands of companies all over the world today. These are the principal values that many, not just corporations, but families too, run on. Um, because here's the thing about all this, Adam on We love people. Notice my words here. We love people who are courageous. We love people who are authentic. We love people who serve others. We love people who tell the truth. We love people who are loving and we love people who are effective. In a little story about this, a very good friend of mine is Marianne Williamson, a, uh, very well known author, a lady who actually ran for president last year. She obviously didn't make it, but years ago I went to visit her in Detroit, where she lived at the time with my wife. And we were having dinner at our house one evening and I said, marianne, I'm really, really excited because I got this whole idea I'm working on is called the Castle Principles, and I'm going to write a book about it. I've just sort of figured this out and so On. And I said, let me tell you what it stands for. It's a Macron. And she said, stop, stop. Let me guess. C is for courage. A is for authenticity. S is for service. T is for truthfulness. L is for love. E is for energy. In Britain, they use the expression gobsmacked. I was gobsmacked. And I said, how did you do that? I hadn't told anybody about this. This is just my. In my laboratory at the moment. And she said, well, I cheat because I know you guns. So, you know, it's obvious you're talking about different things. But then she said this and this. Adama, this comment pretty well changed my life. She said, there's nothing new to learn. What we tend to do all the time is you say, uh, what's a new book I need to read? What's the new trendy thing that we're going to follow here? And her point was, we were born courageous. There's nothing to learn. We already know this. We're born authentic. Who's more authentic than a baby? We serve right from the get go. When we're born, we tell the truth. A baby doesn't know how to lie. They learn how to lie if they don't get born with it. A baby is all about love. They don't have any other idea. Fear comes later on. We learn fear, but we're born with love. And they're effective. They get hungry, they start yelling, that's effective. So what she was pointing out is there's nothing new to learn. What's happened here is we've forgotten our values. And, uh, even today, you know how it goes. We don't tell the truth in corporate organizations. The oil industry doesn't tell the truth. The tobacco industry doesn't tell the truth. The, uh, chemical industry, the pharmaceutical industry, we don't tell the truth. And we know this and we say it's okay. This is the way corporate life works. So therefore, we're prostitutes. When we come to work, we're whores. Because we live with this every day and we think it's okay. But people who live with the Castle principles don't do that because they do tell the truth. That's one of the values. So the values is a very, very important and very sensitive subject. And, uh, I, uh, invite your listeners to consider using the Castle principles as their values for their family, for their friends, and for their work. This is the centerpiece of my last book. It's called Reawakening the Human Spirit. Because what I've learned is that when we live the Castle principles, we inspire other people. And when we inspire other people, amazing things happen.

Ademola Odewade: I very much.

Dr. Lance Secretan: I'm at the airport one day and I'm at the airport one day and, uh, there's a big rainstorm and the plane is grounded, and so I miss my flight. So I'm, uh, trying to get a new flight. And, uh, the guy in front of me is frustrated and he's angry that he's not getting, um, an immediate seating and first class and all that stuff. And he stops and he says to the lady behind the counter with his hands on his hips, do you know who I am? And the lady comes out from behind the counter and dresses on people lined up and says, uh, ladies and gentlemen, this gentleman doesn't know who he is. Everybody's laughing. Does this guy think he's going to get a better seat because he's yelling and screaming at this person? Does he think that by intimidating and using fear, he's going to get a different thing to happen? So a few weeks later, I have the same problem. I'm in Boston now, and, uh, my plane is stopped. I'm on a 9 o' clock flight and it's canceled. The 12 o' clock's full. So now I'm on a 3 o', clock, and I've got an agenda. So now I'm late. So I said to the lady, charming lady behind the counter, boy, this is a rough day for you. Is there anything I can do for you? Because, you know, thanks to you, I've got all this time on my hands now. So can I get you a coffee or, uh, water or anything like that? And she says, no, no, no, thank you. This is just standard, uh, procedure we have to deal with. It's quite regularly, so no problem. But thank you very much for asking us for a kind of you. And then she says, I know what I can do for you. I can boot you up to first class. I said, thank you. This is the difference between motivation and inspiration.

Ademola Odewade: That is deep. And I love that. Just to instead of would I. Sorry. I wanted to reiterate the Castle principles. Right. So C is for courage. A is for authenticity. Right. Then the. The S is for service. The C is for the truth.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Yes.

Ademola Odewade: And the L is for. Let me see. I've, uh, forgotten the L, but. But then the E as well. The L and the E. I really want to ensure that we get this right. A, authenticity. S is service. T is truth. Then the L and the E is what I'm trying to remember.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Love and effectiveness. And what you've demonstrated is something that's very important in teaching, which is memorability. You've heard this once in your life and you already remember it. I often play a game with people. I say, okay, did you ever go to 7 Habits for highly Successful People with Stephen Covey? And yes, almost everybody has. One of the most successful programs ever. Okay, tell me what the seven are. Nobody can do it. They can usually remember one or two. It's not sticky. But you've just demonstrated CASTLE is very, very sticky. And I have talked to people who say, you know, uh, I heard you speak at a conference 20 years ago. And I say, really? What did I speak about? And they say, oh, you talked about the CASTLE principles. I go, interesting. Can you tell me what they are? Yeah. Courage, authenticity, service, truthfulness, love and effectiveness. Just like that. People never forget CASTLE principles.

Ademola Odewade: M because of the mnemonic, because of the, the acronym. It's very, very sticky. And I appreciate that. It's very, very much appreciated.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Yeah, exactly.

Ademola Odewade: Wow. Wow. It's amazing stuff. You know, many leaders actually talk to talk, but they don't walk to talk. And, you know, they talk about purpose, but I don't see any real purpose. But how can they ensure that purpose becomes operational rather than simply an aspirational thought?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Right, absolutely. And a lot of it is whitewashing.

Ademola Odewade: That's deep. So what are the practical steps that, you know, leaders can take immediately to improve, you know, culture and, of course, improve leadership in the organizations?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, here I will do a, uh, commercial, uh. Uh, so, uh, we run master classes where we teach people these principles that we're talking about and we certify them and they become teachers of this work around the world. So I invite your listeners to, uh, connect with me and, uh, I'll talk with anybody who wishes to talk about the possibilities and what that leads to and why. It's interesting, but one of the things, one of the first steps that we get involved with when we're teaching, but I think for any leader that needs to understand this, we ask a, uh, series of questions and go through a pretty rigorous exercise, asking people three questions. Why are you here? How are you going to be while you're here? What are you going to do? We call this the why. We do. And the why is, what is your destiny? Just supposing, for example, that, um, I'm not making a religious statement, just a metaphorical statement. Supposing you're in heaven and God calls you into the boardroom and says, hey, I got this job that I haven't finished, it's called Earth. It's kind of a mess right now. I need you to fix it up. I'm going to give you a hundred years and every all the help you need. Come back and see me. In a hundred years, you've got to have birth. You do 100 years. Come back. God calls you into the boardroom. How did you make out? What did you do? What's your answer to that question? Because that is your destiny. That's why you're here. You need to be able to say, I made the world a better place. And every employee in the company needs to know what that is. Why are you here? What is your contribution that you're making? How does this company help you achieve whatever it is you were born to do on this planet? And then the B part is the character. How do you want to be known? What character is important to you? Now we come to values. So in my case, I want to be known as a loving and inspiring person, and that's how I want to be. And then do. What is the do? What are you going to do with your life? You'd be amazed at Imola how many people are doing things they don't want to do just to get a paycheck. You ask most people, what would you really like to do? I want to be a concert pianist. I want to be an artist. I want to write poetry. I want to be a rock star. They don't want to be a clerk, but they do that their whole life until they're 65 and they think that's over. Then they do what they really want to do, if they've got the gifts. At that point, it's not too late. So we're in a situation where we need to understand all of this and be more alert to the needs of people and where they're going. So that part, uh, why we do is primitively. There's one other thing I want to mention that we also teach. And I'll share this idea with you. You talked about, uh, earlier you used the phrase there's a war between the generations.

Ademola Odewade: Yeah, the generational wars across the fight.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Yes. It isn't a war. Etowah. A war is a serious thing where we cope, people. And so one of the things that we need to do if we want to be inspiring is to remove the language of war and violence. And we use it all the time. We talk about being blown away, blowing my mind, blowing the doors off things. We talk about the war on terror. We Talk about being road warriors. I mean, there's just an endless number of phrases that we use in our language, which are violent phrases, and you can't inspire with violence. So what's happening at the subconscious level? You don't even know what's going on. But if I would say to you, ademola, I would kill for your hair, for example, this is not meant to be an insult, it's meant to be a compliment. But your subconscious mind connects kill with violence, and hormones start releasing in your body, which are, uh, like cortisol, adeniferin, fat stresses you out in your body and you don't even know it. You leave a meeting where a lot of this war talk happens, and you say, why don't I feel better? Well, there's a biochemical reason why you're not feeling better. All these chemicals go through your body, which are stress hormones, and they make can do ill. So if we want to inspire people, we use the language of love, not war. So a little tip for you and all of your listeners. Try removing the language of war from your vocabulary and watch how your relationships

Ademola Odewade: change Words, the words are actually very powerful. So from your bestselling books to global speaking stages, you've actually built authority over the decades through consistent value creation. And of course, you know, you recognize globally as a leadership authority. Was that recognition intentional or a, uh, byproduct of consistently creating value?

Dr. Lance Secretan: You know, I've never marketed any at all in my whole life. I'm on a. I don't promote or do mail campaigns or I don't have constant contact or anything like that. It's just word of mouth. And, uh, I've been doing amazing work with some incredible people, and it just incrementally grows. It's kind of like Kaizen, as we were talking about earlier. But, you know, I'm introduced to other companies from clients who have loved what we've done and enjoyed the work and the success that we've helped them to achieve. And I've had great clients where I've learned a lot. And my clients are Microsoft, Starbucks, ep, Mana, uh, and so on. So some, some wonderful companies with some brilliant leaders. And I've, uh, learned a lot from them and, and they in turn have learned from me. And they tell their friends. And so I end up working there. And so it goes. And I'm still doing it. Most people retired 20 years ago. Wow.

Ademola Odewade: Uh, interested, I hope. I'm always interested. They say word of mouth, advertise it is the most effective advertising. Do you agree?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Yeah, absolutely. And that word of mouth and caused by excellence. You have to be good at what you do.

Ademola Odewade: Amazing, amazing stuff. You know, for aspiring experts, you know, coaches, consultants, entrepreneurs, you know, founders. What would you say is the relationship between expertise and visibility in today's world?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Expertise and visibility, um, visibility, I don't know. In my world, there are a lot of people who are much more visible than I am. I think about people like Deepak Chopra, Marcus Buckingham, uh, and so on, but most of those people are what I refer to as horizontal. They have enormous market presence, but it's very, very shallow. They don't go deep into any organization. In my case, if I have a client, I go very deep in so humana, for example, 50,000 employees. And I would say every single one of them knows about me. And that's not true of many people, uh, who are consulting in the same field that I am.

Ademola Odewade: So there are so many talented people that remain invisible. Why would you say there are so many experts that hesitate to share their ideas publicly?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, I don't know. That's the same thing. Anemoa, uh, visibility doesn't equate with impact. Visibility. Like even Marianne Williamson, for example, who's very, very well known and she'd written dozens of books and she's been quoted by Nelson Mandela and so on. So, you know, she's got a huge reputation, but she's very, very shallow inside corporations.

Speaker F: Uh, you talk to IBM, they wouldn't

Dr. Lance Secretan: have heard of her, they don't know her.

Speaker F: And yet she has a world famous reputation.

Dr. Lance Secretan: I'm the opposite. Lots of people have not heard of me. But the work I do is deep, personal and can go on for years. I've worked with some companies for decades because we're doing some really transformational work and it takes time. But I don't care that other people don't know me. I'm only concerned with this one company

Speaker F: and what I'm doing with them and

Dr. Lance Secretan: other companies that I work with as well. So visibility is not an issue. I'm sure it helps with marketing, but that's not an issue for me either. I'm trying to catch up with all the things that I'm right now being asked to do.

Ademola Odewade: So I feel there is, what I say, some sort of correlation between visibility and would I say, global credibility. So, for example, a person like yourself, your work is deep and you have written books, you, you have spoken at, you know, events, you know, being a keynote speaker, your thought leadership speaks for itself. Uh, and of course the, the media appearances that you've had. Have, uh, built credibility over the years. So what advice would you give the upcoming experts in terms of solidifying their body of work and ensuring that their body of work remains credible and visible over the years?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Well, do good work. That's the answer. Do good work. And the other thing I think we forget to do is to ask our clients for whom we do good work to tell their friends about our good work. Uh, the best opportunity, opportunity for new, uh, business comes from existing clients who love what we do and decide that they're going to share that with somebody else.

Ademola Odewade: Amazing stuff. And, you know, I, I tell people there's a difference between PR and marketing. Pr. Okay, here we go. So I, uh, I was saying that I often tell people that there's a difference between PR and marketing. PR generates interest. Marketing creates awareness. Right. So what would you say is the importance of PR and of course, the art of storytelling in establishing global credibility as an expert?

Speaker F: Honestly, I don't know the answer to that. I don't do any marketing, so I don't know the difference between PR and marketing. As I say, I prefer to rely on the good work that we do, and the ambassadors sit in work for me that also do great work and the, uh, clients who are happy and tell everybody else about our great work. I do a lot of this sort of thing that you and I are doing right now, so that could be considered marketing. And hopefully those who are listening to you and me today may be inspired by what we're discussing and could reach out to me and ask me questions about how this might work in their organization. So that's marketing. But it's very subtle and very quiet. And, you know, quite honestly, I wish people would stop marketing at me, for example, on the Internet. I, uh, can't. I'm getting so tired of people. When I have an app, there's an ad on it that comes up every five minutes. I can't watch a news item without being interrupted by advertisements and so on. It's getting very irritating. So in some ways, you know, I think it's negative, not positive.

Ademola Odewade: So in terms of the art of storytelling. Hustle culture. Hustle culture. I, I am not a proponent of hustle culture, but I am a very big proponent of the art of storytelling. A lot of people have expertise, but they're not doing what you're doing today, for example. Right. And that is the art of storytelling. I feel it's not in, would I say, expertise compounds when you're able to teach it. Take, for example, I've learned From you today. Something no one can ever take away from me. That is the castle principle, the castle of framework. And of course, uh, just to, when I say jog my memory, right, Reject my memory. The C stands for courage. Um, the A is for authenticity. S is for service. Uh, T is for the truth. L is for love, and E is for effectiveness. Is that correct?

Speaker F: Perfect. See how easy it is? And the reason is because you always knew this. You don't have to remember anything. You knew it already.

Ademola Odewade: But that is the art of storytelling. You have been able to, what I say, compound the principles into something that is highly relatable and highly memorable. Right? But a lot of experts, huh, do not possess this, would I say this skill of storytelling. So, so what would you say, the art of storytelling, like how important is it for experts, uh, that are upcoming?

Speaker F: It's very, yeah, very important. You know, I, I spent, after I left manpower, I spent a few years teaching at university. I was teaching an MBA course in entrepreneurship and ah, strategy and leadership. And I wrote, I, I, they had me read some books. I read 150 during the summer before I started teaching in the fall. And uh, I read these books and I thought this, they're awful, awful. These 150 books that they use for teaching are terrible because they're not describing anything. Like I have lived for the last 14 years as a CEO. So I wrote my own book, but I was in the university environment and so I looked around me. Remember we were talking about how we copy. I looked around me. What does a book look like when you're a professor at university? Well, it's got hundreds of footnotes, annotations, uh, references to research papers, blah blah, blah, all that. So I wrote a 465 page book loaded with annotations. It was called Managerial Moxie. It was the history of how we built manpower. It's the last book I ever wrote like that. It was my second book that I ever wrote, but it was the last one because I realized it's, it's not about all the data and the metrics and the annotations and the, and that, that it's impressive to an academic, but it's kind of useless to a day to day reader. And what we need for a day to day reader is a small book, a hundred pages, 100 page max, and as many stories as possible to help the, the concept stick. Because you're so right. Storytelling, we are storytellers, all of us. And that's true of humanity right back to the beginning. And uh, we've always been storytellers and that's how traditions get shared. That's how before books, before the Internet, before we wrote anything, we shared stories. That's how we handed our traditions from family to family and generation to generation and so on. We love stories and that's the way people learn. So I use stories a lot and I'm very conscious of being a storyteller in my keynotes. I always use stories in my books. I do too, in teaching also. So even today we've talked about several stories.

Ademola Odewade: Amazing, amazing, amazing. And you know, coming back to leadership, what would you say concerns you the most about the future of leadership? So, uh, I said, what would you say concerns you the most about the future of leadership? Even the current landscape today?

Speaker F: Some of the things we've talked about. Adamola. I think that our fixation on, um, the metrics at the expense of people, it's much the same as you could say exists with our focus on fossil fuels versus alternative energy sources. Why do we keep doing that? We know that that's a mistake. So what are the reasons? And you just basically have to follow the money. It's the short term gain that people enjoy and they're not prepared to exchange a short term pain for long term gain. Instead they prefer a short term gain for long term pain. Uh, that's where we are in leadership. You know, a friend of mine once said, you know, if you went to a supermarket and fired everybody, you would make more money than ever. You just wouldn't last very long.

Ademola Odewade: That's actually deep, but very, very true. But looking on the bright side, looking on the bright side, what would you say is the greatest hope that you see in leadership today for the next generation of leaders?

Speaker F: Young people. Young people are going to be our salvation. We need old people to just step out of the way because they're stuck. Most now, not all. Everybody, but many. It's an embedded system and it's not going to change easily until new people show up and say, this is stupid, I'm going to change this. And that's happening. It's happening.

Ademola Odewade: That's.

Speaker F: Technology is basically the invention of young people.

Ademola Odewade: But would you say it's a function of mindset because you could be 91, but you can be 19 in your mind, right? So I, I like I talked about the generational clashes, right? I've seen people that belong to the Generation X that are baby boomers, that are very enthusiastic about AI just as much as the Gen Z's. And I've also seen people who belong to Generation X and, you know, the baby boomer generation who are stalking their ways. Right. That would, I say detest. And they're almost anti AI. So I, uh, like for you to touch on that mindset about being young and being old.

Speaker F: Yeah, I think we, we talked about that earlier. I'm, as, you know, 87, and I don't feel 87 at all. I'm physically not feeling like 87. You know, I ski 100 days a year, I kayak 100 days a year, and I'm on the road a lot. So I'm very active physically. And this is why generational divides and labeling people as X or alpha or whatever puts them in a box and constrains them. You know, we're human beings. We're multi dimensional. We're not just one box name, one label. And so it's a mistake to use the generations, in my opinion, anyway, to define people. I'm not going to target millennials in a marketing campaign or alpha generation in a marketing campaign. I'm going to target people with a mindset, as you say. This is drawing on Carol Dweck's work. And I don't know if you've had her on your podcast, but if you haven't, I invite you to, to call her and bring her on. She's excellent. But she talks about a growth mindset

Dr. Lance Secretan: or a fixed mindset.

Speaker F: Yeah. And what we need is a growth mindset. If you've got a fixed mindset, you're not going to change.

Ademola Odewade: I don't think m. Amazing stuff. Amazing stuff. And I think you actually beat me to, uh, the gun. Right. Uh, I do have a tradition on the podcast where I ask the guest to invite somebody. They respect their body of work and they feel will be a great feat for the podcast. So is that the person you invited? Okay.

Speaker F: Yeah, I think, I think it would. Would be. That's one of the people I would invite. Certainly on a podcast. I'd probably invite the Dalai Lama, because the Dalai Lama is a good example of what we were talking about earlier. Have you seen any marketing from the Dalai Lama?

Ademola Odewade: No, no, no. And why would he the Dal yet?

Speaker F: He's one of the most.

Dr. Lance Secretan: Wow.

Ademola Odewade: That's a keyboard that I very much look up to. Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly.

Speaker F: Yeah. He's one of the most famous people on the planet and he doesn't do any marketing. He doesn't need to, because what we love about him is what he stands for.

Ademola Odewade: Yes. Uh, I think I would absolutely, absolutely love that opportunity to speak with the Dalai Lama and yeah, we can do that invite together. Amazing stuff. Amazing stuff. Wow. Uh, I think in terms of legacy, when it's all said and done, what do you want your legacy to be?

Speaker F: Well, I hope that people will feel that their work environment is more inspiring than it would have been without my help. And that the performance of organizations was human, not just corporate, and that we actually moved the needle a little bit around taking care of people, being compassionate, creating organizations that are built on inspiring other people, not just employees, but customers. Why do people buy iPhones? Because Apple inspires them as a company. The phone is not better, actually, it's probably worse than a Samsung phone, but that doesn't matter. Apple has done a great job of inspiring users and you know people well. And BlackBerry did back in the day too, by the way. But so have a lot of other organizations. Ben and Jerry's, Patagonia, the Body Shop, you know, lots of the Container Store. There are lots of organizations that stand for something, run their organizations in a way that's inspiring, and as a consequence, other people want to do business with them.

Ademola Odewade: Reminds me of something I say a lot. People don't remember what you did to them. Uh, they remember how you make them feel. People don't remember what you say, but they always remember how you made them feel. Interesting. Thank you very much. And of course, I think we've hit the time where we get to the quick fire round. So I ask you five quick questions and you tell me the very first thing that comes to your mind. Are you ready to rumble?

Speaker F: Okay.

Ademola Odewade: Okay. So the number one question is, what is one leadership principle every CEO should adopt immediately?

Speaker F: Well, before manpower, I, as, I, as you know, I worked for a crazy man, but I learned a lot from him. And you, uh, know you can learn from negatives as well as positives. And so I learned a lot from him, probably more than almost anybody.

Dr. Lance Secretan: And.

Speaker F: But I was a very tough leader. I was difficult in some ways, but uncompromising. And I learned that that wasn't the best approach. And in manpower, as I became a New Leader At 27, I learned that different ways. And it was the beginning of my journey of looking after people more than the numbers, or at least looking after people first and the numbers second. And believing that if I took care of people, they'd take care of the numbers. I didn't have to worry about the numbers. And that worked out. So I transformed from being a kick ass, you know, John Wayne kind of leader to a more compassionate, caring leader.

Ademola Odewade: So what is one book you would say has had the greatest impact on your life.

Speaker F: I would say lots of books. But, uh, there's one more recent book that I, uh, like a lot. It's called the Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. And it basically invites us to let go of stress. And, uh, I have built quite a lot of thinking around this because we teach in our work that stress is a myth. Stress is not real. We invented. What we actually mean is. Stress is a definition of our reaction to an event. So something bad happens, we react. Like somebody cuts you off in, uh, traffic, so you yell and scream. Uh, this person who can't hear you, but you're still yelling and screaming, and your heart rate goes up and you start sweating, and all kinds of stress hormones are running through your body and you call this stress. But if you get caught, cut off in traffic, and you decide to just wave and say, have a nice day, then you don't have stress anymore. The situation was the same. The only difference was your reaction. Therefore, none of us need to be stressed because we simply need to react differently to the events that happen. And therefore, you can imagine that we waste a lot of energy in stress mode, which we could avoid if we changed our approach.

Ademola Odewade: What is one belief about leadership you have changed your mind about?

Speaker F: The numbers are the most important thing. Two people are the most important thing.

Ademola Odewade: Interesting. I love that.

Speaker F: And when I say people, I mean.

Ademola Odewade: And everybody.

Speaker F: Everybody. We think we mean employees, but I also mean regulators, unions, the media stakeholders. Yes, all the stakeholders. Shareholders, and of course, customers. But also vendors. If we don't want to cheat vendors and try and make them lose money by beating them down with their prices and so on, we need to partner with them and inspire them and cause them to say, I want to do business with that company because they're really good people to work with.

Ademola Odewade: Interesting. If you could have a dinner with any historical leader, who would it be and why?

Speaker F: If I could have what?

Ademola Odewade: If you could have, uh, a dinner date with any historical leader, who would it be and why?

Speaker F: Maybe Obama. Maybe the Dalai Lama.

Ademola Odewade: Wow. Barack Obama.

Speaker F: Yeah. Um, who else? Maybe Mick Jagger.

Ademola Odewade: Big Jagger. Wow. Amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing. Interesting, Interesting. Okay, uh, would you complete this sentence? The future belongs to leaders who do dash.

Speaker F: He's a pretty good leader.

Ademola Odewade: Interesting. And of course, you know, we have come to the end of the session, but I would love for you to leave what I say one last piece of advice to the upcoming generation of leaders, right. That want to build a life of impact, influence, and inspiration. What would your final message be to

Speaker F: that would be, I think, to understand the difference between motivation and inspiration. Understand that we use motivation almost exclusively because leadership theory is all built on motivation. And try to not necessarily leave that because it has its place. You know, motivation is good. If the building catches fire that we're in, I'm going to motivate you to get out of it. But start using inspiration much more and understand the power of your relationship with other people and whether or not it inspires. Robert Greenleaf had a great quote. He used to say, will what I'm about to say improve on the silence? Ask yourself that question all the time, Justin.

Ademola Odewade: Wow. From me to you. It's a, uh, very, very big thank you. I feel like words are inadequate to express the gratitude and the appreciation that

Speaker E: I have for you.

Ademola Odewade: And of course, I always say an attitude of gratitude is good attitude. And when a person shares a time with you, they share their life with you, because the SI unit we're measuring life is time. And of course, you know, uh, my biggest takeaway from this conversation, uh, has been the Castle framework, which is courage, authenticity, service, truth, love, and effectiveness. And of course, you know, when I look at your body of work. Thank you. But I look at your body of work, it screams three things to me. I is three eyes. That is impact, influence, and inspiration. You know, in terms of your impact, you build work that changes lives and communities around the world. Of course, in terms of influence, you actually earned trust and built authority through consistent, courageous value creation. And of course, in terms of inspiration, you have been a leader, uh, inside out, igniting the best in others, and, you know, by being the best version of yourself possible. So it's. It's love and massive respect for me to you.

Speaker F: Same way. Thank you.

Ademola Odewade: Thank you.

Speaker F: Yeah. Being great to be with you. Thank you very much for the time. And I hope your, uh, your listeners enjoy it too.

Ademola Odewade: Absolutely. And of course, to the listeners, guys, you know what to do, right? Share, like, drop your comment. And of course, yes, I think the links to. If they want to reach out to you, um, what are the resources or the links to go through?

Dr. Lance Secretan: Sec.

Ademola Odewade: Fourten.com okay, amazing. I'll have that in the description. And of course, guys, uh, if you actually enjoyed today's session, there's actually more where that came from. So, guys, you know, subscribe, and of course, go check out the other, uh, videos in this body of work. And of course, um, if you're on the audio platforms as well, go check out the other episodes in this body of work. Till I come your way. Again. Always remember, conceive, believe, strive to thrive and grow our team. It's goodbye from me and of course from Dr. Lan Secretan.

Narrator: It's uh, Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month trial at, uh, shopify.com specialoffer the grill is shot, the chairs are held together by optimism. And what happened to the rug? Sounds like your outdoor setup is not ready for patio season. Fix it all with Wayfair. Shop Wayfair for grills, rugs, furniture and more. With 20 million 5 star reviews, room of choice delivery and expert setup on qualifying orders, it's never been easier to do more for less. Get 10% off your first eligible purchase. Hurry to Wayfair.com or download the app now.

Narrator: Your team just added its 67th AI tool and also your 67th security blind spot. The good news? The Vanta agent works like a GRC engineer in the background, finding every app your team uses, scoring the risk and drafting fixes for you. Vanta is the platform used by over 16,000 fast moving companies like Ramp, Cursor and Harvey who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get started@vanta.com Are you one of those

Narrator: media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets?

Speaker F: Yes.

Ademola Odewade: Good.

Dr. Lance Secretan: This is for you because on uh, Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in, loyal, invested.

Ademola Odewade: They're called fans.

Narrator: Fans don't just listen to music, they feel seen by it, like it belongs to them.

Dr. Lance Secretan: So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me.

Narrator: Lizzo.

Dr. Lance Secretan: So are you ready to talk to fans?

Narrator: Spotify advertising.

Dr. Lance Secretan: You're among fans.

Ademola Odewade: Goodbye.