Cutting Admin by 60%: How Greg Waechter Scaled Culture Through Simplicity

Speaker A: Employees want three things. They want to be compensated fairly for the work that they're doing. They want an opportunity to grow and progress in their career. And they want to be recognized for doing good work.

Speaker B: Welcome to Voice Activated, the podcast dedicated to unlocking the power of employee feedback. I'm, um, Sean Fitzpatrick, founder of Telemap and your host. In each episode, we'll dive into real world examples and best practices, as well as some lessons learned from employee surveys, pulse checks, focus groups, 360s and more. If people are at the heart of your business, you're in the right place. Expect open conversations, practical advice, inspiring stories from companies that are getting it right, and some reflections from those who've hit a few bumps along the way. Tune in, listen up, and let's activate the voice of your employees. So when we talk about hr, the conversation often gets tangled in tools, platforms, programs. You know, often the assumption is better systems means bigger systems, and the only real way to scale culture is just to keep adding them. But what if the opposite were true? What if the real magic in employee engagement and culture lies not in growing complexity, but in greater clarity? Today's guest has built a career on that belief. Greg Waxter is a managing partner at, uh, Super Simple HR we where he helps high growth startups and companies build people operations that are lean, human and effective. He's led HR inside organizations that grew from 50 to 500 plus employees and helped reduce mid burden administrative burden by 60%, all while raising employee engagement by 40%. Greg just doesn't simplify HR. He really helps restore its purpose, helping people do their best work. In this episode, we'll unpack what scalable human centered HR looks like in practice and why less complexity might be your key to unlock success. Greg, welcome to Voice Activated.

Speaker A: Thanks Sean. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

Speaker B: Greg, you've worked with dozens of growing companies and you've gone through, it looks like three IPOs, uh, four exits. Sounds like pretty interesting, uh, exciting, if not probably challenging work at times. Um, but you decided to leave the business side of the corporate side and really start out on your own in a consulting role in super simple hr. Why'd you make that jump or why'd you make that choice?

Speaker A: Great question and I think it's really a couple of reasons, right? Um, one is I'm a builder at heart. I love kind of jumping in and starting things from scratch or even fixing things that maybe have been broken. Um, and I found working in some of those companies that were growing quickly when they kind of leveled off on the growth, I started getting bored and I was looking for things to break so I could build again. Um, and then beyond that, uh, I've got two young sons that are, you know, three. Three and one right now. And as I'm looking forward in what I want to do, I want to kind of engineer my life in a way that work fits into it and provides me the flexibility to set the hours that I work, who I work with, what I'm working on, those types of things. I've spent 20 years in the world of HR and it's a very broad spectrum of things that I've covered and done. And just like any other job, there's stuff I love and there's stuff I don't really like to do. Um, like the payroll compliance, those types of things, they're great, they're Needham, they're table stakes, but it doesn't get me out of bed in the morning. And so engineering the work that I'm doing in a way that I'm fired up every day, I'm ready to help my clients in the best way possible, um, get the best results for them. And so it's just a new way of thinking for me over the last three years of what do I want in my life and how do I make work fit into it rather than how do I fit my life into my work schedule.

Speaker B: Yeah. And yeah, it sounds like you're given the background experience you've had, especially going through so many changing organizations, you probably have a unique skill set that you can bring to these other ones that are going through similar processes.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's not a ton of people that I know that have got a background like mine which spans Fortune 500 to executive recruiting, to the aforementioned three IPOs and four exits at fast growing companies. So I've got a unique skill set that kind of allows me to see around corners in terms of I know what things break when. Right. And so it's like, how are you able to avoid some of that stuff? Um, because typically when let's say you're a series, uh, a company, you might have 60, 70 employees and hey, I just got this round of funding, we need to double in size. Well, your budgets tend to be limited and so you might be getting kind of a first time hr, ah, director in the role that hasn't done this stuff before. And so they're kind of figuring it out on the fly. And it's like, well, you're going to have to figure it out on the fly in at 100 people at 150 people at 300 people. Because the nature of what needs are there for the people, operations for HR change. And so that's where I kind of come in on the fractional side, which is, yeah, you're going to pay a premium for me to work, quote unquote, part time or whatever those hours look like. But I'm able to do things a lot faster. I'm able to put things in that work and that scale. So you're not putting in a performance management, uh, process at 50 people and then having to redo the whole thing and retrain people at 100 or 150 people.

Speaker B: Because you hit sort of ceilings, I guess, eh, like uh, from 0 to maybe 50 it looks pretty similar. But then from 50 to 100, once you get to a hundred, okay, now you gotta rethink all of the processes of the systems because they'll break again as you grow and grow. Sort of, uh, those ceilings that you run into. Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think, you know, when you think about a 50 person, 50% company, you can still kind of get everybody in the same room.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: Decisions can still be very centralized with the founders. Um, and it's, it tends to be a very kind of, hey, we're running on vibes, everybody's bought in, let's go. Um, once you start getting to that 75, 80 Ah, person kind of size, that stuff starts to break down. Your founder doesn't have direct communication with every employee in the company.

Speaker B: You get another layer of managing in there, management in there.

Speaker A: So you have to be more strategic and more purposeful about how you're communicating, what you're communicating, what's important. And so those are just the things that's like, okay, well if we, how do we build some of these things? Simply so simple to understand, simple to use, simple to implement that scale with you. And I've, and that's kind of why I named my company super simple hr. Right. It's really focused on the foundational stuff, not the fads. Like, you know, I know we're going to talk about culture and those types of things, but early in my career

Speaker B: I thought like, what are some of the foundational pieces? When you're talking about foundational pieces for, you know, a 75 person organization or something like that.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think this is foundational whether you're 75 or 7,500. So if you want to be a truly employee, employee first company, it means what do employees want? In my experience, employees want three things. They want to be compensated fairly for the work that they're doing. They want an opportunity to grow and progress in their career and they want to be recognized for doing good work. Right. Whether that's a pat on the back, a raise, a bonus, whatever the case may be. Those are the three core tenants that I see in every organization that's successful is doing.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So from an HR perspective, it's what are the programs, processes, philosophies that support those three tenets? So it's typically going to be some sort of performance management system. And I don't mean annual reviews. I've been saying for 15 years that whole process is broken. I'm really talking about feedback mechanisms. Do people know what's expected of them? Do they know how to deliver it? Do they have the tools necessary and are they being, being provided feedback on what's working, what's not and how can they grow? Right. The other piece becomes, you know, compensation. So what's your compensation philosophy? Is it clear? Does everybody understand it or does it feel like somebody's sitting behind a curtain making the decisions?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. And where's the clarity? Right, yeah. Um, another big thing is just what I like to call job architecture. Job framework. Right. So you've got every level mapped from your entry level, you know, uh, assistant, all the way up to your C suite with clear ideas of the scope of the role, the decision making, priorities and kind of what are the lines of progression and what needs to happen. So those things in and of themselves are big undertakings, but yes they are if you can make them easy to understand, super transparent and easy to use. Now everybody knows you're basically handing an employee, here's uh, the map. Go choose your own adventure on what you want to do within this organization as long as you're performing.

Speaker B: It's surprising though, not only are going to, even large ones have all those core foundational pieces really nailed down, a lot of organizations struggle with them. You know, the accountability, the progression, all of those types of things, uh, not always sort of, uh, in place. So it's interesting how you're working with small to mid sized firms. Trying to get that in place early on is probably a good thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, ah, yeah, it's, it's way too hard to kind of clean that up after, you know, you've scaled from call it 50 to 250 because there becomes some learned behaviors and learned processes, whether they're documented or not, that become the new normal. And now you're, you know, some people like them, some people don't. And you're kind of fighting an uphill battle on, on getting everybody to fall

Speaker B: in line on the same page. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's then it's uh. Well, we never did it this way. Well yeah, because it may have worked then, but it's not going to work now.

Speaker B: It's not going to continue on. Yeah. It's not going to help you achieve what you want. Yeah. Uh, uh, yeah. Now. So in your consulting role now I assume you come in and things are probably pretty messy inside of organization. Depending on your client. Some might be overloaded with stuff, uh, a lot of maybe lack of clarity, maybe a point. What are some signals or signs that are sort of telltale signs that you can, you see fairly early on, you know that you know the HR functions either working really well in supporting the people or really not, not working well at all and just needs uh, a revamp. Are there any signals, signs or things that are sort of early indicators?

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's kind of a mixed bag. Right. So I'm either the first one in and they have nothing and they're just dying for like some sort of process. That one's kind of framework. Right. The other one is like hey, we're ready to kind of jump to that next level and we've got all of this hodgepodge of stuff, uh, but it's not really cohesive. And so I think one of the big signs is, are people using the tools, processes and programs that are in place. Um, is it making their life, is it making their life easier or is it a box checking exercise? In my experience, most of the time it's a box checking exercise because like let's use performance management as an example. Uh, some advisor or some employment attorney, employment law attorney said you need to do this so you can cover your butt. If you need to let anybody go. It's like well, okay, great. But is it valuable? Is it adding value to the organization? Because if it's a box checking exercise, nobody takes it seriously.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's like let's just get this over with and get it done.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And I um, think to at least there's also a bit of, and I know how, how HR as a profession is kind of viewed. Right. Like my, my brother in law still insists on calling me Toby Flenderson from the office. So it's uh, there, there is a bit of compliance that has to go on.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: But if, if you're over indexing on that and in any HR function or team or person is just looked at as like the hall monitor. That's not valuable either because you're taking up people's time with enforcing policies that may or not. May or not may or may not be even used. Right. So, uh, I stepped into one company where the handbook said one thing, managers were doing another, and the executives thought something else was happening. Right. And what does that do? It leaves employees confused. And if employees don't have a clear, like, understanding of the why behind things, spoiler alert. They make up the reason for themselves. And that's, that's never good. When they have to connect A to B because it's typically some sort of conspiracy theory or, oh, you know, Sean got promoted because he's so and so's cousin. Right. When it's like, no, Sean got promoted because he's kicking ass, but we don't have a clear policy in which, uh, to manage to that.

Speaker B: Right, right. Interesting. Some of the survey work we do, we often get interesting insights. I think they often relate to stuff like that. For example, we'll get, you know, uh, our executive team doesn't walk the talk or doesn't do what they say. And of course, when you share that information back with the executive, they're like, well, what do you mean? Yes, we do. I don't think they realize the, um, things like, it's almost. I don't mean this in a negative way, but there's lack of integrity in the systems or hip not. They're not hypocritical on purpose. They just don't realize that the executives say one thing that they do, and they're not realizing that there's underlying systems that are sort of talking against it or going against what they're saying. They're probably not even realizing that that's what HR sometimes have implemented. And it really doesn't support the direction that they're trying to go. And you'll get feedback. This is anonymous feedback we get. It's like, oh, they don'. They don't walk the talk or they don't, you know, do what they say they're going to do. And often it's, it's relating to, uh, work. You know, one example is, uh, you know, you'll get, oh, well, I wasn't, you know, supported on professional growth opportunities and executive, well, we have a budget, we have time. They can do that. But when you sit down with the employee and find out, well, what happened is, well, yeah, we do have that. But every time I apply or ask my manager if I can go, I can't. Timing's not good. We're way too busy, can't make it to that. So even though there is the policy there, I don't feel like I'm supported to be able to go on those events or conferences or training when I, you know, when they're available and stuff like that. So, so the systems do one thing and then the executives are doing another. So that lack of clarity comes out in things like that is what we see sometimes.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, right. And I think too like on that point, I think there's uh, an importance of listening in terms of the employees and getting the surveys. But it's sometimes less about what you hear and more about what you do to address it. Right. I worked at a company, this was a little earlier in my career and did a, spent a ton of money, did a lot of work around an engagement survey, got some very actionable things that we could do. And I remember one executive in particular had a big meeting three weeks after all the results and action plans and everything and said we're going to fix this and then never talked about it again. And it was the follow through that pissed everybody off. Right. It's the idea of don't ask me for my opinion if you're not going to do anything about it. And so I always caution leaders when it comes to engagement surveys, if you're not going to do anything with it, don't do it. It's going to do more harm, it's going to do more harm than good. And you may not like what comes back, but you have to take an honest look and still address what's coming back because mhm, these folks are living it every day. Uh, you may not believe it and to your point earlier about maybe not walking the talk and things, I think, uh, especially C suite executive level folks, founders, people that I work with a lot of, they lose sight of the fact that they're talking about this stuff constantly. They're thinking about this stuff constantly. And unless they're explicit with their direct reports and their teams about this needs to go out, you need to talk to your teams about it, the communication dies on a vine. And so there's this big disconnect the bigger, uh, the company gets between what the executives believe is happening and what's actually happening, what the executives believe is being communicated and what the employee's hearing. Um, so it goes, you know, it's kind of tangential, but I tell founders that I work with, when they're trying to keep their culture strong through growth is you have to talk about something about culture every single Meeting every single communication point to the point that you're going to be so sick of talking about it that you're going to want to beat your head against the wall. But that's what needs to happen. Because the, what you talk about and put your attention on as a founder is what everybody else puts their attention on. So if you think culture is important, then you need to continue to reinforce that every chance you get.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Uh, and I've seen that in some of the work we've done is, you're right. Executives, leaders are often working on stuff for quite a while, sometimes months in advance before they finalize it and roll it out. By the time they roll it out, they're sick of it. They', okay, we're done now. We rolled it up. Let's go on to the next thing. And it's really now that's just the beginning. Because that's when the employees have to implement whatever change or process or system or strategy you're trying to get going. And they're just hearing it for the first time. They need the months of sensitization to it, so they start to live and breathe it the way the executives have. So I know that's a real challenge. I'm glad you pointed that out because yeah, they got to do it so often where they literally feel like, oh, God, doesn't everyone know this by now? Uh, no, they don't do it again. That's why you get paid. Well, you gotta bang your head against the wall on some of this stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, well, and depending on what you're talking about too, some of those things. And I'm gonna continue to go back to performance management. Cause that's where I've seen like the most disconnect on all this stuff. In theory, the executives are like, yes, we need this. But when you ask them to do any of it, participate any, it was like, oh, I can't be bothered with that. It's good for the employees, but I can't be bothered with it. It's like, well, then, um, why are we doing it again? Then it comes back to the box checking exercise. And so I think, especially as you're talking about people, culture, engagement, those types of things, it really comes down to authenticity. Right. Because in any sort of culture, there's the articulated piece of who do we say we are? There's a bit of an aspirational piece in terms of who do we want to be. And then smack dab in the middle is like, what are we actually doing? And if those three things aren't tightly aligned, you don't have any authenticity. Right. And so, you know, I think back, and it's probably been 10 years now when Amazon just got raked over the coals with, on, um, the New York Times article about how bad their culture

Speaker B: was and all this stuff. Yes, I remember that. Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, I can guarantee you Amazon saw a huge uptick in applicants after that because they are authentically them. This is who we are. We are, we are going just cutthroat, top performers only. And that's going to appeal to certain people, you know, People.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and so that's authentically them. Right. And it's almost like drinking the Kool Aid. Uh, and you know, other companies I've, I've worked with have been all about like, let's all be friends, we're a family, all of that type of thing. Which is great. You want to say it, but are you, if you're truly a family, are you going to fire anybody? How many, you know what I mean? Like those types of things. And so it's being very, um, purposeful about how you communicate these things, but also making sure it's authentic to what you truly believe and where you want your company to end up. Uh, because otherwise, again, that cognitive dissonance that it creates in employees can just wreak havoc.

Speaker B: Yeah. And they pick up on it really quickly. You know, it may not be conscious all the time, but they pick up on those little differences and just like, whoa, that just doesn't make sense or it doesn't jive with what I heard or seen. Uh, and it sort of builds. Not one instance or one issue doesn't do it, but it's over time often gets multiplied in an employee's mind and might drive them to leave or disengage. Uh, uh, in terms of that. Ah. Um, I'm going to flip over to just Ed because you touched on it, but actually before you do that, I want to touch on something. Performance management. You brought that up a couple times and they are a really even a number of years ago we went through a bunch of stuff. I remember Deloitte talking about we're getting rid of our performance management performance review system and that, you know, so it'd be interesting to hear your take on it, how you think about performance review. I know you talked about, well, you don't really see that the older style, that's not what you're thinking. But tell us what, what it looks like. What do you, for a small to mid sized firm, uh, what does a good performance management, performance feedback, whatever it's called, what's it look like and how does it work?

Speaker A: Great question. Um, it's really about continuous feedback. Right. So the companies I tend to work with, they're changing a lot, right? So it's not an established company where they're like, we're going to grow 10% this year. Here are the six corporate goals we have to get there. And they're not changing, Right. Like, we're talking about companies who set goals for a quarter and have to change them halfway through. So the idea with kind of my philosophy, my process on it is it's more frequent with less of a lift, right? So it's meant for managers and employees to meet at least every other week. And it's a simple check in. Simple check in 1 to 10, how you feeling and why? What's going good, what's going bad, and, uh, what roadblocks do you have? Right? And then at least once a quarter, the manager and employee sit down and talk about that employee's growth plan. Where are you headed? What things can I do to help you get there? What training do you need? Where are the gaps, those types of things? And you enable. You give training to both the employees and the managers because you really want the employee to own some of this conversation as well. They should be driving these every other week. They should be driving their career conversation. Because if you have a growing team, let's say you're an engineering manager and you have 10 people underneath of you, you're going to be spending a month, just a month of your year just driving these things. So you want the employees to own their own career.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And they should be driving these. It, uh, gives ownership to them on their goals. It gives ownership to them to speak up and say, this doesn't make sense to me. Why is this one of my goals? This doesn't fit with where we're going as a company. Right. So it helps promote some of that bottoms up thinking. And in an ownership culture, it also helps promote a regular culture of feedback where people are comfortable giving and receiving. Um, and there's a lot of training, a lot of tools, all of those things that can be provided. Um, but ultimately this is going to be the biggest driver to the success of your organization in terms of raising issues up to the top to be solved, um, strengthening your culture. Because people know exactly where they stand, how they're growing, how they're doing those types of things. Um, and it's an additional opportunity. Every one of those meetings to reinforce your values. Not just what are you delivering, but how are you delivering it. How are you showing up every day? Um, and how are we showing up together as a team? So those, those programs aren't just philosophical. I've put them in, I've seen them in action. I've seen them kind of change the game from a engagement, ah, perspective. Right. There's, there's ownership. It's not just oh, my manager gave me these goals so I guess I gotta do em. Um, they don't ask about em anymore. And all of a sudden it's the end of the year and I'm only getting a 2% raise because I didn't get these done. But it doesn't even matter anymore. We, we haven't talked about this stuff in nine months. Um, and so it's that idea of the continuous feedback. Continuous feedback. Continuous feedback.

Speaker B: That ongoing. So any one issue is not a great big issue because you're addressing it on a regular basis or uh, every two weeks, you know, it's going to come up so it doesn't get so big that it becomes like, oh, right,

Speaker A: and then you get to compensation time. There are no surprises. Everybody knows where they stand, right? There's going to be a handful. You know, I uh, look at it as like a bell curve for that stuff. Like 10% of the people are going to get outsized rewards. There's going to be a solid, you know, 80 to 85% of the people that are going to be middle of the pack, the 3 to 5% or whatever your budget is. And there's going to be a handful of people that aren't going to get anything because they're not performing. And then you're having other tough conversations with them. But it's not a surprise. It's not like they're getting caught off guard. Like unless it's like a going out of business, like layoff, nobody should ever be surprised about getting let go for performance.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, interesting. The, the, you know, you talked about one important part of that and I really like that thought that regular. And you're right, I like that idea of you shouldn't be surprised. You should have a pretty good understanding how you're doing. But that only comes from regular feedback. It's not coming from just once a year. Um, sometimes though you might see and it's maybe a little bit more with younger employees or you know, depending on, depending on where they're at in their career or how they're thinking about their career. But when you sit down, what Are your goals for your, your, the job, your task, your personal career? Sometimes you'll get a bit of, a, bit of a blank face or a bit of like, I don't know, don't you set the goals or what, What, Tell me what to do and I'll do it. Uh, you know, so I guess I, I wonder how do managers or how could they deal with stuff like that? Is it, does that just happen? Just give it time. It'll, it'll start to embed in their thinking. Or, or is there some way to progress that?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's again, just through conversation, discovery. I mean especially if you're talking about like a personal development. Right. The manager needs to put themselves in a position to be curious. Don't expect a, uh, you know, just uh, out of college to 3 year person to have their life figured out.

Speaker B: Right, Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. I mean I'm one of the few people that I know that got a degree in what I'm still doing. Uh.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Most people switch, you know, all sorts of different stuff. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so it's like, don't expect them to know anything really. So from a delivery standpoint and like what are their goals on the day to day? You can help them with them the first couple times until they get their feet underneath of you and underneath of them and understand the business for their career. It's just about asking, hey, I know you're one year into your career, you've done X, Y and Z. What are the stuff? What's the things that really like, lit you up? What are the things that, you know, you're excited to work on? Let's talk about how we can play to those strengths.

Speaker B: Yeah, work on those strengths.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. And play to those like, yeah, you might have some weaknesses we can cover up, but let's not spend a ton of time trying to fix those because m, you don't like doing it anyways.

Speaker B: Right, right, right. Yeah.

Speaker A: And let's figure out how to steer that. And in some cases it's not just the manager that owns that. Right. The manager needs to be confident enough and aware enough to say like, I need to raise my hand and call in somebody else to help, whether that's their senior leader, whether it's somebody like me that can sit down and help guide them on how to do it. Um, because it all comes with practice. Right. So you may have a first time manager managing a first time employee. So it's like, okay, where are the tools at? How do we help enable that? Um, and While the principles all tend to be the same, the um based on the company, it's going to be a little bit different on how it's executed.

Speaker B: Mhm. You bring up sort of one area that we see a lot and that's just around that middle manager. So maybe not the executives, not the front line. They're often, middle managers are often caught in the crosshairs. You know, they're expected to drive the culture, emulate the culture, implement the systems with their team, make sure they're compliant. But they're not always, they're not always equipped. Right. Or well equipped. Sometimes they were, you know, good, a good performer on the team. They get moved up because the company's growing quickly. Easier to bring someone that knows our company, move them up as opposed to pulling someone from outside the organization in. You know, how, how can companies, small to mid sized companies, how could they better support that uh, layer of leadership? Are there things that they can do, uh, with respect to things like performance management, but it could be anything around culture and people and engagement just better supports them to be better leaders.

Speaker A: I think it's depending on what we're talking. Like first of all, like, we can't dump all of the culture stuff on that level of management.

Speaker B: Good point.

Speaker A: It's, it's everybody's job to support the culture, whether you're that entry level person or you're the C suite. And it, the tone gets set from the top and reinforced at every level below that. Um, and that's where it comes into constantly reinforcing from a values perspective, not just what's on the wall, but how they show up every day and almost deputizing your employees to hold themselves and each other accountable. And again, if you have a culture of feedback, if I'm working with somebody who's not living up to those values or not kind of doing the things that they should be doing. I need to feel comfortable saying, hey John, come here, can we talk a little bit? What's going on? Like this isn't, doesn't feel like authentic to what we're trying to do from a values perspective. You know, is there something I can help with? Like how do we get past this? Um, so that cultural piece needs to be shared across everything. But as you're talking about like programs and things that managers are in charge of and have to help implement, it's all about training, it's all about tools and it's all about practice. Right. Like don't expect when you roll out a new performance program or a new whatever program that everybody's going to get it the first time. They're not. It's new, it's different. Right. Don't expect, if you're telling managers, hey, you need to start doing one on ones every other week with your team, that it's just going to go great.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: They need the tools and the guides and the practice in order to get better. Right.

Speaker B: The talking scripts, all of that, the prompts, the reminders, all that stuff.

Speaker A: Right. And I mean it's interesting. I saw something, I don't even remember where it was the other day. But they talk about, you know, professional athletes, they've been practicing their craft since they were probably 8, 10 years old and they're doing it for, they're practicing for 40 to 60 hours a week just to play in a couple games a week. Right. To perform. That model doesn't exist in the professional world. You're just supposed to execute. You're, you're in a game 24 7. Where's the practice? Where's the ability to do that? Um, and I, I don't, I, I, I'm not suggesting like all of a sudden we flip the script and it's like, okay, everybody gets a day, a week to just practice management. This, it's not really like how it works, but you gotta carve out some time and have some tools available for folks to use. Right. Um, and I think that's where, that's kind of the, the place where those middle managers have been underserved and under, supported by kind of that corporate environment.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, you can't, you can't expect them just to have it. They need to be intentional about developing it. That's what you're saying.

Speaker A: Right. And in, in startups that are growing fast, they have neither the time nor the resources to really kind of provide that safe space. So you're asking a high performing individual contributor to uh, now manage a team of five of their peers and figure it out. That's a scary proposition, Sean. Like how the heck, uh, how do you think they're going to be successful? And why do you think there are folks now that are just like, I don't want anything to do with management.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's a growing group. Right. Of m. I'd rather just stay as an individual contributor, put me in a manager role. Because it used to be everyone wanted to move into managing gold many years back, but not so much anymore.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, well it's, I mean, I always joke, um, so my, my mother when I was growing up ran a daycare Right. So I always joke I followed in her footsteps career wise and I just run an adult daycare now. From, from an HR perspective. Um, but it's, it's real. Listen, like, I don't want to be like the old millennial, Gen X, whatever. That's like, oh, ah, these kids these days. I was the same way when I was coming out, right? Like overconfident about my abilities, a little cocky, like, I don't need your help. You don't know what you're talking about, old man. That type of stuff. That hasn't changed. Um, where I see things falling down for some of these folks coming in and why managers don't want to manage them. They have very little work experience when they get into the workforce. I mean, I had a paper route when I was a kid. I was, you know, working at a restaurant from 16 all the way through college. Like I held jobs. I had to like, interact with people and learn how to communicate with people.

Speaker B: Show up on time, you know, did deliberate while you're there.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so a lot, I'm not saying this is, this is not a broad statement, but it's going to sound like it. A lot of the kids entering the workforce now are adults entering the workforce now. They grew up on their screens, on texting, not having the one on one communication, not having to work together through things. And maybe not having many jobs because their parents wanted to focus on their education. Right. They're unprepared to enter the workforce. And you have managers that have enough shit going on that they're like, I don't have time for this. And it's, it's gonna, it's gonna crush an entire generation of, of people coming into the workforce. And it terrifies me. Mhm.

Speaker B: Interesting. Yeah. I never thought about it, but when you bring it up, especially if you think about people entering the workplace, I don't know. I know I have, I have a daughter that's just starting to enter the workforce. Uh, in her, you know, she worked, but not the way we like. I, I similarly, I worked at McDonald's and I worked at a lumber yard. All these jobs you take as you go through the years. She work, she worked as a lifeguard and that was good. Uh, but even some of her friends never worked. They were in organized sports for much of their career or much of their, you know, high school and university and college and they, they really haven't. And then Covid, obviously exasperated. That period where they just haven't had that, uh, uh, time in front of, you know, and with peers and colleagues in a work environment that maybe you know, previous generations just had a lot more experience with it. So uh, yeah, it's a tough role for managers for sure when you add that complexity on of it.

Speaker A: Right. And then to, to your point earlier, you've got senior management. Why isn't this delivered? Why isn't this happening? And in a lot of, a lot of companies that you see now, the directors are kind of the, the director level folks are kind of that player coach, they're expected, deliver and manage. So you're asking them to do two jobs. Um, and it, you know, there's also the, the fad a few years ago of like let's just get rid of the management level and empower everybody. Well what happened? Nobody was held accountable. So then income back the manager.

Speaker B: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. It's a challenging role for, for, for sure. And uh, anything that you do to help them is I think a real companies value it more and more. I think now at times, uh, I'm going to, I'm going to flip over to some of you know, some of your consulting work and particularly around trust. And this is, you know, how do you go about building trust? So you work closely with, you know, executives and managers, employees of different types and, and they're trying to, you know, just tell us how do you go about building trust? Especially when you walk into a new client, you're an outsider and you're maybe asking them to implement something or change something and do it at a certain pace to help keep up with the pace that they're maybe launching products or growing the company. How do you go about building trust with clients, employees, managers, executives?

Speaker A: Great question. So when I join, I listen, I shut my mouth, just the only thing coming out is questions. Right? Uh, listen, fact, find, get to as much of the truth as I can of what's actually going on, reflect it back then to them and say this is what I'm hearing. What am I missing? Is this untrue? Does this not resonate with you? If not, why not? Let's talk about it.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Um, and then it's just starting with little wins, right? It's hey, you want this compensation philosophy, great, let's start with a little piece of it. Let's agree on that. Let's start building momentum. Um, and it kind of goes back to my philosophy about simplicity and easy to understand, easy to use those types of things. If you can't go into a company that has no process and all of a Sudden drop in the stuff that a Fortune 500 company is using.

Speaker B: Right, right. Been. Been doing for years and mature about systems. Yeah.

Speaker A: Too much. Right. So, uh, uh, and I know I'm overusing the performance thing. It's just a hot topic right now with some of my clients. I'm not gonna roll out an entire program until we know that the feedback's working, the regular one on ones. So let's start with that. Let's start with one pilot group, maybe one department. Let's start it, let's get it going. Let's figure out where it might fall down over the course of four or six weeks. Then we roll it out to everybody. Okay. I've got some little wins. Um, because what I've found even in bigger companies is, um, there's a bit of like the, the new toy that everybody wants. Right. So if one executive is being like, oh, we rolled this out, it's fantastic, then everybody falls in line and wants it. Right. Um, so I think to kind of get to the crux of your question, I listen, I ask a lot of questions. I show that I'm curious and I'm not a blowhard, know it all consultant. That's just like, you need to do this, this and this. And it'd be like, well, we tried that, or what do you even know about us that doesn't resonate with us. Um, because with the beauty of all of these foundational approaches is they're easy enough to tweak or mold to make them authentic to the business that I'm working with. Um, and make it work for them. Um, because ultimately that's what they need. They don't need something off the shelf. Yeah, the off the shelf thing's going to work, but it's not going to resonate with anybody.

Speaker B: Interesting. So it's almost like, uh, yeah, that whole idea, just listen first and just understand. Who was it, Cubby? Stephen Covey? I think, uh, listen to understand, you know, so that whole stump there, and I like that second part of just this guy. It reminded me of something I heard just recently. Progress over perfection. So just don't try to drop a system in and expect it to work. Just do little pieces and try it as a pilot, refine it, make it better, and then sort of start building out on, on the tools and just get progress, get started with something small. Uh, I think that, uh, that's good.

Speaker A: And I think, sorry, real quick, if it's not useful for people again, it just comes back to what we talked about at the beginning. It's a box check exercise. So if you roll it out and people are like this doesn't really work for us, it sucks. Okay, well let's figure out why and let's iterate and keep trying. Um, sorry, go ahead.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, it's that whole, yeah that whole iteration. Right. And I think that's really valuable to start small and just try it and then not. And expect maybe it's not going to work well, maybe try something else but sort of uh, getting that immediate sort of like software. Right. You sort of want to build software in an agile model, get a little bit of it out, test it, get feedback, build on it again. As opposed to that old traditional waterfall model where okay, let's have all the requirements set up six months in advance and then send the software team out in a corner for six months to develop it and then the big release and then find out that oh well, you know, either requirements have changed, the world has changed or what they built really doesn't meet the day to day needs of uh, the users. Right. Uh, I ah, like how HR has been applying some of that sort of you know, iterative sort of agile sort of approach of things. That's good. Um, I have a couple of closing questions. Um, you know, one is you know, around, you know, how people listen and the other one I want to hear about, you know, just uh, a m. What's a mindset shift you'd like, you'd like the audience to have. But the first one. So if you, if you were the CEO of let's say, you know, some of your companies are maybe 250 employees or 500 employees, you know, what's the first thing you would change about really how that, that leadership team goes about listening to its people? How does it go about understanding what, what they want, what do they need? Especially you talked about as they get bigger, you know, once they hit 100, 150 people, it's hard for the front for the executives to know what's going on in the organization and how things, what people really think about. So what are, what are some things that uh, that you would change or the first thing you change around how, how organizations approach that?

Speaker A: Um, I think one is just listen authentically, listen with purpose. Don't you know the, in past lives engagement surveys have gone out and executives don't like what they see and they're like oh, I know who said that? Well who cares? Who cares who said it, Somebody said it, there's some truth there. Or it's like I don't agree with that. So I'm just going to discount it. You have to go into it in a way of like, I want to hear everything, I want to take in everything, I want to process everything. Because where there's smoke, there's fire. Right? Whether it's one person or if one person's got the kind of guts to say it, somebody else is thinking it. Right? So that's a big piece. I think the other thing is what we talked about earlier. You have to do something with what you hear. You have to have a plan. Even if, even if you get the results on a Tuesday, it's like a quick little pulse survey and you turn around on Friday. Even if the answer is no, we're not addressing that. At least it's an answer and it's a direction and it's a quick turnaround of, we heard you. We're not going to do that with a bit of a why behind it.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, I like that. First, I agree. Got to follow up. Got to do something if you're going to ask. But that first part talked about the importance of the executive's mindset around how they're thinking about feedback and not going in with a, uh, predisposed way to approach just having an open mind, you know, a beginner's mind in a way to sort of think about, okay, how am I going to receive this feedback? And just, just listen, really be open to it and listen and not judge, you know, So I really think that that's really important. I like, like the talk on that last question. Uh, you know what? I want our listeners to walk away with just sort of a mindset or a way to think about how to simplify, scale, and really humanize or change your people practices. What would you leave the audience with? Around one of those things, I would say.

Speaker A: And this kind of tacks, uh, onto your point before, but think about HR in people stuff as like a product role, a product strategy where your product is your people. How do you optimize your people? Right? There's going to be new releases, there's going to be iterations, there's going to be all of that stuff. But you also have to listen to your customer, in which in this case, your product and your customer are the same thing. What do they want? What is useful to them, what makes sense? If all you're doing is checking boxes, you're wasting your time. You now have become the hall monitor. If you, as an HR person wants to chase people around to get them to finish a performance review, you're doing it wrong. You're not adding value to the business. Um, so I would say that's the big thing, um, is take your HR hat off every once in a while. If you're doing it right, the compliance stuff takes care of itself. The policies are smart enough to be well written and understood and you're just making sure people are staying in the, in the lines. Um, but if you truly want to make an impact on the business, you got to focus on your employees and make sure you're giving them what they want. I mean, obviously within reason, right? Like we're not going to roll out a million dollar bonuses to everybody tomorrow. But goes back to those three pillars. Are they compensated fairly for what they're doing? Is there an opportunity for growth? And are they recognized for the work that they're doing?

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: Yeah, you could do that. You're gold.

Speaker B: You're in it. You've got a really solid foundation. And, uh, I like that, how you brought that from the very beginning. You close it in on that. So that's great. Greg, Greg, how can people reach you? So what's the best way for them to reach out? Tell us about that. If someone sort of wanted to talk to you and learn more.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, so they can find me@supersimplehr, uh, dot com. Uh, LinkedIn is a great way to find me. Uh, Greg Waxer, Searchable search, super simple HR. You can find me that way in LinkedIn. Uh, I've got links and everything on there to book a meeting with me. Um, and one of the things I've been doing lately is just kind of have an ask me anything for founders, in which I can guarantee I can solve your problem, your HR problem in 20 minutes or less with a solution that's easy to use and easy to implement. Um, just one. I can't solve them all, but I can solve one of them. Uh, uh, so, yeah, I would say LinkedIn or my website's the best way to get me.

Speaker B: Excellent, Excellent. Well, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure and we learned a lot. Super simple hr. All right.

Speaker A: Thanks so much for having me, Sean. It was great. All right, bye bye.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to voice activated. If you've heard something that got you thinking, don't keep it to yourself. Share it, talk about it, put it into play. That's how better workplaces get built. When you're ready to move from insight into action, head over to talentmap.com, you'll find tools, resources and strategies to help you lead better with clarity, empathy and impact. And make sure to follow or subscribe so you don't miss any more real conversations with leaders who know that some of the best ideas for change don't come from the top, but from those employees closest to the work.