#334 Keenan - The Two-Step Sale System That Closes Anyone

1 - > SPEAKER_00: What are you seeing as the main changes that's 2 - > happening in the sales space over the past 24 months? 3 - > SPEAKER_03: Clearly, unequivocally, AI. 4 - > There's nothing competing with it. 5 - > SPEAKER_00: How is that affecting like traditional sales 6 - > or prospecting more specifically?

7 - > SPEAKER_03: Salespeople are not very good anymore. 8 - > Like, they don't really aren't very good at the job of selling. 9 - > It's just more garbage, garbage, garbage, garbage. 10 - > And so now rather than slowing down and fixing the problem, 11 - > what have we done?

12 - > We've amped it up with AI now. 13 - > It's just trying to find a dial that just allows me to quote 14 - > unquote scale more, more, more, more. 15 - > So at the end of the day, I should say selling is simple. 16 - > Two steps.

17 - > Does the person have a problem that you can solve and that they 18 - > want to solve it and they'll want to change? 19 - > If they agree that they want to change, that's half the sale. 20 - > The second half the sale is who do they change to? 21 - > SPEAKER_00: What are you seeing as the main changes that's 22 - > happening in the sales space over the past 24 months?

23 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh, I mean, the main changes is clearly unequivocally 24 - > AI. 25 - > I mean, that's that's hit hands down. 26 - > There's nothing competing with it. 27 - > AI.

28 - > SPEAKER_00: How is that affecting like traditional sales 29 - > or prospecting more specifically? 30 - > SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think there's there's two ways that 31 - > it's affecting it. 32 - > At the macro level, it's just more shit in, more shit out. 33 - > Like they're just if we pay attention to what sales has been 34 - > doing for the past 20 years, 15 years, it's just trying to find 35 - > a dial that just allows me to quote unquote scale more, more, 36 - > more, more.

37 - > So, you know, when I started in sales, you had salespeople, and 38 - > we had to literally sit down, and we I talked about in the 39 - > book, and we had the yellow pages where I worked for the 40 - > chamber of comments, had lists, you had these lists or these 41 - > leads, and you just sit and call them, and people would pick up 42 - > the phone. 43 - > Even if you couldn't close everything, people would 44 - > actually pick up the phone. 45 - > Well, then you know, tech came out, and in the you know, email 46 - > came out, so people started using email.

47 - > And then once email came out, you had things like sales law, 48 - > sales loft and outreach, and they just allowed you to build 49 - > cadences. 50 - > Now think about that. 51 - > When I uh when I was doing before all of that, you'd send 52 - > an email and you might send another one, you might send 53 - > another one, but it would be disjointed, and you might only 54 - > send one or two, and you'd make some calls, and that's about it, 55 - > right? 56 - > Well, when you now got a machine and you've got SD, and they're 57 - > hiring these whole machines, these whole engines, you want to 58 - > have a bunch of SDRs, you load them up into outreach and and 59 - > sales loft.

60 - > We've, I think we've 12x, I think the number is 12x or 61 - > something like that. 62 - > The number of of um emails and outreaches to customers times 63 - > some ridiculous amount of more salespeople. 64 - > So basically just flooded the market. 65 - > And what they didn't do is really get any better at 66 - > actually like actually the job.

67 - > Salespeople are not very good anymore. 68 - > Like they don't really aren't very good at the job of selling, 69 - > it's just more garbage, garbage, garbage, garbage. 70 - > And so now rather than slowing down and fixing the problem, 71 - > what have we done? 72 - > We've amped it up with AI now.

73 - > Now AI is gonna run it, and AI is gonna do it. 74 - > Now it's gonna be 24-7, right? 75 - > Just 24-7. 76 - > Now, out of the gate, it's not working.

77 - > SDR still closed more deals than AI. 78 - > SDR is still better at it, so it's not really working, and 79 - > it's just making the it's saturating the inbox and 80 - > saturating the voicemails and LI of of buyers, and they're 81 - > they're fed up, they're just fed up. 82 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man. 83 - > Like it's kind of just fucking obvious though, right?

84 - > Like, isn't it's kind of obvious how if you get a message and 85 - > you're not a Potato, you realize that that's obviously AI, or 86 - > it's a sequence. 87 - > Like, because even if you go back three years ago from our 88 - > first podcast, sequences that are non-personalized, would you 89 - > ever respond to it? 90 - > No. 91 - > And I'm seeing this with like SMS now as well, like automated 92 - > SMSs.

93 - > So it's kind of like if you have any bit of a brain cell, you 94 - > would realize that that would not work, especially at scale. 95 - > So the skill of sales is going down, and then the actual the 96 - > the uh touch points, the touch point mapping is going way up. 97 - > So the volume going way up. 98 - > And is there any scenario where that's effective?

99 - > Like is a cold email? 100 - > Is there any effect any scenario? 101 - > SPEAKER_03: Nope. 102 - > Nope, nope, it's all about the message.

103 - > Look, if you can nail a good message, volume can help you, 104 - > right? 105 - > Like anything else. 106 - > If you got a really, really good message, then if you can get it 107 - > to more people, that's good to know. 108 - > But no, just just thinking you pull the volume meth or the 109 - > scale lever is gonna change things, it's not.

110 - > And they just don't get it. 111 - > SPEAKER_00: Are we referring to like the first message too? 112 - > So this is the first touch point trying to get in there, trying 113 - > to get into a company, get into an account. 114 - > SPEAKER_03: When you say, Am I referring to help me understand?

115 - > SPEAKER_00: When you're talking about the volume, um, and you're 116 - > talking about trying to get like trying to ramp the volume on the 117 - > front end, is this really as like your first touch point when 118 - > you're interacting with a company or interacting with a 119 - > with a champion stakeholder? 120 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 121 - > I mean, I when I say volume, it's it's I'm asking the 122 - > question, how many emails or how many calls are you trying to 123 - > make in a day, right?

124 - > And if you're trying to get out 60, 70, 80, 90 emails, there's 125 - > no way those emails can be um have any value. 126 - > There's just no way. 127 - > Right? 128 - > Because this is just it's too many people with too many 129 - > different problems.

130 - > So you have to sanitize it so it makes some sense to everybody, 131 - > right? 132 - > You're better off to focus on 15 or 20 and make them really, 133 - > really good to make sure they're really, really good customers uh 134 - > or ICPs and have really, really good targeted messages that 135 - > really, really address problems they have, maybe even reference 136 - > a what we call symptom or a or a catalyst that you know about 137 - > that could get their attention, you're better off to do that 138 - > than you are to just spray and pray.

139 - > SPEAKER_00: How do you approach that now? 140 - > Uh where your teams do you approach that from like maybe 141 - > doing Loom videos, um doing audits? 142 - > Like, what is our first touch point that you would recommend? 143 - > SPEAKER_03: I think that just depends on who you're going 144 - > after, what you sell, etc.

145 - > You know, I really like uh Gail Dupree is doing some fun stuff 146 - > on the that top of the funnel piece. 147 - > He's doing a lot of cool stuff, but being really creative on 148 - > what you send them, how you get them to pay attention. 149 - > Um so is um Stu Heinek. 150 - > Heinekee always messed up his name.

151 - > Sorry, Stu. 152 - > Uh, you know, they've always been really, really, really 153 - > creative in doing things that get people's attention. 154 - > Um but I again I I don't think there's a there's not a silver 155 - > bullet for how you do it. 156 - > I mean if you're gonna be really creative and send something 157 - > different, well, that takes time, that takes work.

158 - > So you better hope you have a really high conversion. 159 - > If you don't have the time to wait, you need to get to people 160 - > faster, then you can have a lower conversion, but then you 161 - > need volume. 162 - > I mean, it's a pretty simple XY axis, right? 163 - > It's either high volume and and um uh low conversion or it's low 164 - > conversion, but high volume or low volume and high conversion, 165 - > yeah, mixing it all up, but you know where I'm going, right?

166 - > So you just have to ask what works best for you, what can you 167 - > afford, what's your time timeline, etc. 168 - > So it's just really yeah, I'll leave it at that. 169 - > SPEAKER_00: So what we've been trying to do here, uh, because 170 - > it's let's say B2B, we're trying to target other companies, and 171 - > we at a simple term, we've um a competitor to Calendly, to keep 172 - > it very simple, on the front end. 173 - > So what we've tried to do is almost funnel hack people, send 174 - > them Loom videos, see their innovative, like their lack of 175 - > availability on their calendar, so lack of white space, and then 176 - > sh educate them on why that's a problem.

177 - > It's like, hey, you're missing out on revenue here. 178 - > You're here's a Loom video on what you could be missing out. 179 - > And it's funny because we get responses from people who think 180 - > that they want to book a call, so their response is like, oh 181 - > fuck, like I didn't realize I didn't have that space. 182 - > You might even realize yourself, right?

183 - > You're going skiing or whatever, and then you look at your 184 - > calendar, like, oh shit, I actually don't have spots in my 185 - > calendar. 186 - > So it's it's not like this you need to reinvent the wheel, you 187 - > just need to actually like look at the problem that you're 188 - > solving, it sounds like, and just being able to amplify that 189 - > in their context window. 190 - > SPEAKER_03: Yes, I couldn't have said it better. 191 - > Yeah, 100%.

192 - > SPEAKER_00: How do you think about um multiple touch points? 193 - > So, like, let's say we are trying to like target an 194 - > account. 195 - > Are you still you're sort of super personalized and you're 196 - > super detailed on one account, but are we still trying to hit 197 - > like LinkedIn, Instagram, email, SMS, voice on 100%. 198 - > SPEAKER_03: I don't know SMS.

199 - > I don't like SMS until you've established a relationship. 200 - > Now I might work with some things, but yeah, especially 201 - > B2B. 202 - > No CRO, at least in my world, though, like, or if you're uh an 203 - > oncologist and you sell medical supplies, whatever, they've 204 - > never met you before, once you showing up in their text. 205 - > Tell you that right now.

206 - > They don't want you. 207 - > Okay. 208 - > Now, once you've gotten a hold of them or you've talked or 209 - > they've given you the number or something, that's a different 210 - > story. 211 - > Right?

212 - > I sell the text all the time with with prospects who have 213 - > already engaged, who's given me their number, etc., but not 214 - > until they give it to me. 215 - > SPEAKER_00: Nope. 216 - > I want to ask you about how you go from making the sale in 217 - > formal to informal.

218 - > So like building that relationship and maybe 219 - > transitioning then to SMS or in my world, it could be WhatsApp. 220 - > Have you found that to be effective to be able to like 221 - > have a first call with someone and then be able to build that 222 - > relationship even on a secondary platform? 223 - > SPEAKER_03: 100%. 224 - > Yeah, that's what I was saying.

225 - > I this people I'm that are still prospects that I'm using 226 - > WhatsApp or or um text, but that's not until after the 227 - > relationship was built. 228 - > That's not after we've had a first call, it's until after we 229 - > understand the problem and we're going through the process and 230 - > navigating whether or not they should buy, but it's cold, 231 - > absolutely not. 232 - > SPEAKER_00: What's your what's your advice for people when 233 - > they're coming up against that wall?

234 - > So they've sent the first message, it's not well, maybe 235 - > they are getting a response, but then it gets to the point of 236 - > real resistance, there's no responses. 237 - > Like, how do we know when a lead is dead, or how do we know that 238 - > we should be pushing it harder? 239 - > SPEAKER_03: I always I always like pushing harder till someone 240 - > says no. 241 - > I'm a big fan of that, right?

242 - > So I believe that it's the job of the prospect to say no. 243 - > They're grown-ass adults, right? 244 - > So if I don't want someone bothering me, if I don't want to 245 - > buy, I need to tell them. 246 - > So I operate that same way.

247 - > I'm gonna keep pestering, I'm gonna keep hitting you, I'm 248 - > gonna do it respectfully, I'm gonna offer different angles, 249 - > I'm gonna say this and that, and I'm even gonna give you a chance 250 - > to get out. 251 - > I sent one the other day. 252 - > I said, you know, my 30 years is telling me I'm being ghosted. 253 - > This guy was always responsive, always.

254 - > And we were working, and all of a sudden, poof, just out of 255 - > nowhere. 256 - > He's nowhere to be found. 257 - > I can't get him back. 258 - > I got his his his uh cell number, I call him and text him.

259 - > So finally I just said, Look, my man, my 30 years tell me I'm 260 - > being ghosted. 261 - > And I get it, no problem, shit happens, but don't just I I just 262 - > don't let me out here. 263 - > Like, don't leave me hanging out here. 264 - > If if you've gone a different direction, something's changed, 265 - > just tell me.

266 - > Right? 267 - > Like, I I just I don't know, I'm just directing this to do it 268 - > their own way, but I just keep going until they say no. 269 - > SPEAKER_00: Would you then put them into like a cycle and come 270 - > back still 90 days later when they haven't changed? 271 - > SPEAKER_03: 100%.

272 - > It depends, it depends on the on the person, the relationship, 273 - > the size of the the company, but yes, this one for sure, 100%. 274 - > SPEAKER_00: Um, you mentioned about the ICP. 275 - > I think this is interesting because like there's there's two 276 - > sides to this equation, I guess, for you as well, where it's 277 - > like, okay, there's a company, is that company qualified? 278 - > So are they going to be able to work with us?

279 - > And then of the company, the people that were hitting in that 280 - > company, so within the account, are they the great great fit? 281 - > So going through gap prospecting, you have that that 282 - > two by two matrix, right? 283 - > Which is fantastic. 284 - > And I think this actually gave me a lot of clarity too.

285 - > So it's the power, power in organization, and also the power 286 - > in like decision making, right? 287 - > So information, ideal fit, not a fit, referrals. 288 - > How do you think about working an account? 289 - > So from like the low-level foot soldiers all the way up into the 290 - > champion.

291 - > Like, how do you think about that if you're dealing with 292 - > someone who's just like a foot soldier in the beginning? 293 - > SPEAKER_03: Well, one of the things I okay, so if you read 294 - > gap selling, we talk about in gap processing as well. 295 - > We talk about the problem identification chart, right? 296 - > What we talk about is what problems, impacts, and root 297 - > causes do your buyers and customers have that you solve, 298 - > right?

299 - > And so root causes are broken processor tools, okay? 300 - > They are um, you know, if my pen stops working, that's a broken 301 - > tool. 302 - > Um, if my keyboard, you know, that's a broken tool. 303 - > If um if it takes me too long to to get payroll out, that's a 304 - > broken process.

305 - > Okay. 306 - > Your lower level people, I hate using that word, but your your 307 - > your ICs, your people in the dirt, people doing the job every 308 - > day, they see the root causes. 309 - > Like they they're in the root cause world. 310 - > So they're great to lead in your messaging about the root causes.

311 - > You know, does your keyboard always stop working right in the 312 - > middle of the afternoon, right? 313 - > Or does your broadband go out right in the middle of a Zoom 314 - > call that could be a big deal? 315 - > Like that's a root, that's a root cause that the users, 316 - > right? 317 - > The users, the end user is experiencing.

318 - > They may not always understand the downstream, downstream big 319 - > enterprise business problem, but they understand that impact. 320 - > So if you get them to start talking about those broken um 321 - > processes or tools, you can then start asking them. 322 - > So, because that happens, how is that affecting the overall org? 323 - > Do you know?

324 - > Are you the only one who experiences it going out? 325 - > And have other people lost the deals. 326 - > If you had to guess how many deals were lost, how many sales 327 - > reps? 328 - > Oh, yeah, there's 45 sales.

329 - > Oh, yeah, all the time. 330 - > I'm sure we lose two or three deals a week. 331 - > Whoa. 332 - > So then you take that, and now that's what the executives care 333 - > about.

334 - > And they may not even know. 335 - > You take that and you're like, Do you guys realize because this 336 - > internet is going out, you've got reps losing one to two deals 337 - > a week across all 40 reps? 338 - > That's 80 deals a week. 339 - > And I understand your average deal size 5,000, 80 times 5,000 340 - > is 400,000.

341 - > You realize that's happening? 342 - > Had no idea. 343 - > Now I'm talking to the executive. 344 - > SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you get from the again the 345 - > low-level people to the champion or even just the next the next 346 - > run up?

347 - > I guess that the hesitation, just for context, that we have 348 - > is getting in with a sales rep initially, set or closer, they 349 - > have a shit ton of pain, the manifestation of all the 350 - > upstream issues that have come down and the shits fall on their 351 - > plate. 352 - > But then they're reluctant to bring it to their sales manager, 353 - > they're reluctant to bring it to their head of sales. 354 - > SPEAKER_03: If they're not a decision maker, I do it myself.

355 - > Right? 356 - > Like, I don't have any problem going, quote unquote, around a 357 - > sales rep because the sales rep can't make any decisions. 358 - > They have zero in they've basically zero influence in the 359 - > buying process. 360 - > No director manager said, Oh, my salesperson said no.

361 - > I mean, they're too low level. 362 - > If it's someone in the buying process and is perceived as the 363 - > champion, is it perceived as the key buyer, that becomes a little 364 - > more tricky. 365 - > I like to use the data that I learned to ask, should we bring 366 - > this person in? 367 - > Right.

368 - > So, based on what you told me, does it seem to make sense that 369 - > we get so-and-so involved so we get their view on the size of 370 - > the problem, etc.? 371 - > So I like to use the data to get me to where I want to go. 372 - > SPEAKER_00: What I love about gap selling, I know everything 373 - > goes back to gap selling at the end of the day, is about 374 - > quantifying the gap. 375 - > And I think when I when I observe, when I observe reps, 376 - > especially business owners, because business owners in my 377 - > world are doing this selling, they are totally miscalculating 378 - > the gap, which means they're not even quantifying the gap.

379 - > I mean that there is there is no calculation. 380 - > So the way that you just discussed there about the 381 - > duration of it, how do you think about that problem when you're 382 - > when you're speaking from business owner to business owner 383 - > or business owner to the to the decision maker about creating 384 - > that gap, but then also looking at in that in that actual 385 - > scenario, how much of a significance it has on their 386 - > life? 387 - > SPEAKER_03: Why would it be different?

388 - > I guess I'd I'd pose the question back to you. 389 - > Why would it be different? 390 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess it's not different, but I think the 391 - > biggest challenge uh I observe is that a lot of people look at 392 - > it just from like a business context that, oh, okay, I'm just 393 - > losing money here, but they don't quantify how it impacts 394 - > their personal life. 395 - > So I always talk about health, wealth, and relationships, 396 - > interaction.

397 - > And it was what you taught me many years ago was about how 398 - > does that business impact manifest in their life. 399 - > I actually have a story about this for you, actually. 400 - > Is that is that I was working one of my clients for a very 401 - > long period of time, great guy, they're doing a 10-15 million a 402 - > year uh recruitment business. 403 - > When I first spoke to him, it was a one hour and a half sales 404 - > call.

405 - > And after one hour and 25 minutes, I had quantified that 406 - > he wanted to produce all this content to grow his to grow the 407 - > the content. 408 - > That was it. 409 - > That was it. 410 - > It was very hard to find out the issue.

411 - > After one hour and 25 minutes, I said to him, Okay, you do have 412 - > all these professional goals. 413 - > What is the personal goal that you want to actually achieve? 414 - > And he was like, Oh, I want to become an author and I want to 415 - > get on stage. 416 - > And I was like, Okay, that's the fucking thing.

417 - > Like, that's the thing that he actually wants. 418 - > He doesn't give a shit about the other stuff. 419 - > And then I was like, Okay, dude, if you want to become that 420 - > speaker and achieve all those personal goals, you need to 421 - > fucking record this content, right? 422 - > And he's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

423 - > And then eventually he was able to jump in it. 424 - > But if it wasn't for that, binding that together, I would 425 - > have lost that. 426 - > That was three and a half years ago, and he's still with me to 427 - > this day. 428 - > So I find that a lot of people, business owners or sales reps, 429 - > don't even think about that context.

430 - > The part the personal side. 431 - > SPEAKER_03: So look, I think when you're talking to an owner 432 - > in a small business, it's just him or one or two people and 433 - > it's the owner, that's a good way to go. 434 - > When you're talking B2B companies that have, you know, 435 - > 20 to 30, 50, 100 salespeople or more, no, because you can't sell 436 - > on the personal motivations of that person. 437 - > Right.

438 - > So you can't push that business case. 439 - > So if someone says, Oh, the truth is, I want to get 440 - > promoted, right? 441 - > Or I want to be the CEO or I want this, and that's why I want 442 - > to make all this happen. 443 - > That's fine and dandy.

444 - > But when it comes time to write the check, and I have to get 445 - > four or five other people who are multi-threaded on this thing 446 - > to be like, you know, why are we doing this? 447 - > Well, because we got to get John promoted. 448 - > They couldn't give a shit. 449 - > I'm saying, like, they could not care.

450 - > So I am not a huge fan of the personal drivers when it's 451 - > inside an organization. 452 - > Those will take care of themselves. 453 - > Individuals, yes, I get it. 454 - > SPEAKER_00: I guess is there a world whereby the personal goals 455 - > of that champion is enough for him to selfishly push it.

456 - > Now he's not going to say it overtly, like, I want to get 457 - > promoted, but it's like, hey, John, if you want to get fucking 458 - > promoted, like let's get this over the line. 459 - > He's like, all right, let's go. 460 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, 100%. 461 - > But it doesn't come up too often.

462 - > There's this, it's almost understood, right? 463 - > If they see the problem, they know they're not doing the job, 464 - > or they need to do more, they see an opportunity to grow, they 465 - > see an opportunity to do better, it's implied, and they move it 466 - > forward anyways. 467 - > That's never the that's never the last reason. 468 - > Oh, if you don't do it, you're not gonna get promoted.

469 - > That's the cost of an action. 470 - > No, bro, you told me that you're missing number by 10%. 471 - > You told me that you haven't grown by 20% like you're 472 - > supposed to, and this is happening. 473 - > That's that's enough right there.

474 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay, so when we look at like that current state 475 - > and going very detailed into it, and you're going through the 476 - > quantitative numbers, how do you um how do you usually articulate 477 - > the consequences of them staying stuck? 478 - > So like the return on inertia, the cost of inaction, would you 479 - > would you literally present that in terms of like let's say uh a 480 - > presentation, a guide, a framework? 481 - > Like how do we do this so that they can actually realize their 482 - > problem?

483 - > SPEAKER_03: Are we talking from an outbound perspective? 484 - > We're talking about gap selling. 485 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh well, I guess when we go from let's let's 486 - > start with outbound. 487 - > Actually, that's actually a fantastic place to do it because 488 - > it's harder, right?

489 - > It's harder when they're not responding. 490 - > If they're not getting the responses, this is the feedback 491 - > my reps actually have. 492 - > Is like, how the fuck am I gonna be able to quantify this gap if 493 - > they're just not responding? 494 - > SPEAKER_03: So you have to have a you have to have a thesis, 495 - > right?

496 - > You have to have a thesis. 497 - > You got to ask yourself, what do I think this customer is dealing 498 - > with now? 499 - > That's why you got to do the problem identification chart. 500 - > Why do I think it's gonna be happening?

501 - > Right? 502 - > So, what is the problem I think they're having? 503 - > Why do I think it's happening? 504 - > And what could be the impact?

505 - > And then you that's your thesis, and and then you have to deliver 506 - > the thesis in a way that does two things. 507 - > One that drives intrigue, right? 508 - > We talk we call it the two sales in the book, right? 509 - > What are the two sales?

510 - > First sales intrigue. 511 - > Can you create enough intrigue that that person stops and says, 512 - > Oh, I want to read this, or stops and says, Okay, fine, I'll 513 - > give you your 30 seconds or your 45 seconds, whatever it is 514 - > you're asking for, right? 515 - > So you gotta drive intrigue. 516 - > In intrigue, we talk in the whole book about how you do 517 - > that.

518 - > There's a science behind it by what's called the OFC and the 519 - > ACC, the orbital frontal cortex and triggering the uh interior 520 - > cingular cortex, and how it responds to trends, how it 521 - > responds to um um uh the unexpected. 522 - > I in hindsight, when I was done with the book, I was mad that I 523 - > didn't bring in Malcolm Gladwell and blink. 524 - > He he talked a lot about this and blink, but just not in this 525 - > way. 526 - > So I wish I'd brought some of that into the conversation.

527 - > But, anyways, it's how are you creating that blink? 528 - > How are you getting them to react? 529 - > Once you get the intrigue and they say, Oh, I gotta read this, 530 - > I need to see what's going on, I need to let this person keep 531 - > talking, then you have to create enough interest to get them to 532 - > agree to the meeting. 533 - > Right?

534 - > And in both cases, what people don't understand, it's no 535 - > different than gap slang, it's just on a micro scale. 536 - > It's about creating value, it's the cost of inaction versus cost 537 - > of action. 538 - > Does that person feel when they see the the subject line of your 539 - > email or your first 10 seconds or five seconds you call them, 540 - > do they feel themselves consciously or subconsciously? 541 - > I can't afford to miss this call.

542 - > This could be this could be good. 543 - > I can't afford to miss it. 544 - > Right, and and it happens so quickly, but that's what you 545 - > want to get them to do. 546 - > Today I was just before I got on this call, I got into my 547 - > LinkedIn, I saw this um graphic, and it said something about oh 548 - > man, something about change and show this guy in the middle of a 549 - > super crowd, and it was all of these people around him, and he 550 - > was right in the middle.

551 - > Oh, it's it's about everybody being wrong. 552 - > And I was like, oh, this sounds interesting because I'm in the 553 - > space of you know, basically what I Do is I tell everybody 554 - > they're doing it wrong and they need to change the way they do 555 - > it. 556 - > And I wanted to read it, and I wanted to read it because 557 - > instantly I felt if I don't look at this now and I lose it, I 558 - > might not be able to find it later. 559 - > And it could give me some help on how I want to position 560 - > things.

561 - > And then my damn page refreshed and I lost it. 562 - > I spent like 10 minutes trying to find it if I'm not worth the 563 - > investment anymore. 564 - > But that's literally what it did. 565 - > It triggered me to think I can't afford intrigue.

566 - > I'm intrigued. 567 - > I need to give this 30 seconds to a minute of my time to see if 568 - > it's worth doing anything else with. 569 - > So those are what you got to do in the that's what you gotta do. 570 - > SPEAKER_00: Are you leaning more into pain there versus the the 571 - > future state?

572 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh, 100% the problem. 573 - > It's not the pain, it's the problem. 574 - > People mess that up. 575 - > It's not pain, it's problem.

576 - > Pain sits everywhere. 577 - > Pain can be a root cause, pain could be a problem, pain could 578 - > be an impact. 579 - > You can't go pain. 580 - > Because that's what happens with Sandler's pain funnel.

581 - > People got stuck and they found like one piece of pain. 582 - > Oh, we do everything manual. 583 - > Manual. 584 - > Oh, that's bad.

585 - > We can fix that. 586 - > And you start talking about it. 587 - > You never found out how that process is actually creating a 588 - > problem inside the org. 589 - > SPEAKER_00: So can you double top on that?

590 - > The definition separation between the two? 591 - > SPEAKER_03: So uh pain can be anywhere, right? 592 - > Any discomfort is pain. 593 - > Well, we did what we've done is we said we're gonna dissect pain 594 - > into three elements.

595 - > One is the root cause. 596 - > Root cause a broken processor tool. 597 - > So one I've used recently, it's a dumb one, but people seem to 598 - > make sense. 599 - > You ever been in a shower with a tub and it doesn't drain very 600 - > fast as you take in the shower, the water starts to not go down 601 - > fast to start making it like a pool or a puddle, right?

602 - > And it's around your ankles. 603 - > That's a broken process. 604 - > That's a pain to some degree. 605 - > People don't like it, it's a pain in the ass, right?

606 - > But not everybody gets out and fixes it right away, do they? 607 - > No, no, you it starts to happen and little by little. 608 - > It's it's it that's a root cause. 609 - > The business problem is it gets to a point where it's doing 610 - > something to them they don't like.

611 - > It's getting close to the top, and so now they're like, I gotta 612 - > take shorter showers, this shit could overflow, or it's getting 613 - > to the point where it feels dirty, right? 614 - > Because now it's a lot of water, maybe above your ankles, and it 615 - > just feels gross. 616 - > So there's your there's your um problem that you're gonna like I 617 - > gotta fix this. 618 - > And then the impact is it is either leaving a ring around the 619 - > tub and I gotta clean it every time, and I hate that, or I 620 - > don't feel clean when I get out, or or or or right?

621 - > And so those three separate things have to come together 622 - > collectively. 623 - > You can't sell on just one. 624 - > You gotta sell on all three. 625 - > Here's the in here's the broken process of tool, here's how it 626 - > affects me, and I don't like it, and here's the impact if I don't 627 - > solve it.

628 - > SPEAKER_00: And then what's the what's the reason to make the 629 - > jump in that example? 630 - > So let's go through that. 631 - > What why would I need to? 632 - > What forces me to change from my state of inertia?

633 - > SPEAKER_03: That's personal. 634 - > In some cases, it could be it feels gross when I get out of 635 - > the tub. 636 - > So I mean, sorry, when I get out of the shower, I said you took a 637 - > whole shower, and now my ankles are in water, or just above my 638 - > ankles, shins are in water. 639 - > That's all the soap and grime and dirt.

640 - > And after I'm like, I don't like this. 641 - > This is gross, right? 642 - > Or it could be every time you take a shower, you come back and 643 - > you see a ring around the tub after it finally drains, and you 644 - > got to go in and clean it every time. 645 - > Or if you don't, it just feels gross because now your tub's got 646 - > a ring around it 24-7.

647 - > You see what I'm saying? 648 - > So eventually, somewhere in there for each person, it's 649 - > different. 650 - > Look, for some people, it could be I don't give a fuck about the 651 - > ring, I don't give a shit about feeling dirty, but man, this is 652 - > getting to the point now where it clogs so bad that it's about 653 - > to overflow. 654 - > And now I can't now it's overflowing and I gotta clean 655 - > it.

656 - > And if I don't clean it, now it's gonna get into the into the 657 - > wood and the rot. 658 - > You see what I'm saying? 659 - > Everybody has their own definition, but all of them, 660 - > when they finally decide to change, they've changed, they 661 - > finally got to a point that says I don't like this anymore. 662 - > But it's never because, ever because the clog doesn't go down 663 - > fast enough.

664 - > Ever. 665 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, isn't that really interesting how people's 666 - > problems are almost like personal to them, like 667 - > obviously, but it's like a manifestation, like everyone can 668 - > experience things differently, and then there's a different 669 - > reason why that person's like, okay, fuck, I must change now at 670 - > this point. 671 - > It's not like a universal thing. 672 - > I think that's where it comes into a bit of a challenge where 673 - > like your solution, your tech solution or whatever is 674 - > multifactorial, like it solves different problems at different 675 - > at different points.

676 - > But that's what I mean, is like when you're selling to that 677 - > person, the reps will kind of trip trip themselves up because 678 - > they're it's like a mind fuck. 679 - > They're like, why doesn't this why isn't this a one size fits 680 - > all? 681 - > And then as yeah, does that make sense? 682 - > They're they're like, okay, I can't force this solution in 683 - > this specific way because they're not realizing that okay, 684 - > this manifestation of the problem shows up in different 685 - > people's lives in different ways, effectively.

686 - > SPEAKER_03: Yes, but but they're all measurable and calculable. 687 - > So what you're thinking about is how do I convince the person to 688 - > change? 689 - > I want you to flip the script. 690 - > It should be how do I get this person to reflect?

691 - > SPEAKER_01: That's the key. 692 - > SPEAKER_03: If I write gap signing over one chapter, I'm 693 - > going to build out big time that's not in there, is how do I 694 - > get this person to reflect? 695 - > Gap signing is not about telling people something, it's asking 696 - > questions in a way to get the person who's in there right now 697 - > and it doesn't feel they need to change. 698 - > Be like, how how many times a week do you take a shower?

699 - > I mean, a day do you take a shower a week? 700 - > Well, I take two showers a day. 701 - > So let me ask you this question. 702 - > So when you take your first shower in the morning, does it 703 - > fill does it does it not drain fast enough?

704 - > Yes. 705 - > Okay, so then when you get out, the tub has how much water in 706 - > it? 707 - > unknown: Right? 708 - > SPEAKER_03: No, make the give me a number.

709 - > Like, you know, six inches, great. 710 - > So when you come back tonight, it's drained. 711 - > Yes, yes. 712 - > But what is there a ring around the tub?

713 - > Yes. 714 - > So now you get into a dirty tub and you take another shower, 715 - > right? 716 - > Yes. 717 - > And it does the same thing, yes.

718 - > Okay, so do you clean that tub every single time it happens? 719 - > No. 720 - > So when do you clean the tub? 721 - > Well, I it gets on my nerves at three or four days, so I have to 722 - > clean it every three or four days.

723 - > Now, what about if you have a guest coming? 724 - > I have to clean it every single time I know a guest is coming. 725 - > So you're cleaning your tub when most people clean their tub 726 - > maybe once every couple of weeks. 727 - > You got to do this several times a week.

728 - > Yes. 729 - > Does that bother you enough? 730 - > I can't stand it. 731 - > Okay, well, I can fix after 200 bucks.

732 - > I'm making this shit up, right? 733 - > $200 come. 734 - > Another person,$200, no way. 735 - > So now I can say, all right, so what you're telling me is you'd 736 - > rather do this for the next six months than spend$200.

737 - > Well, now that you put it that way, do you see what I'm doing? 738 - > I'm not telling them anything, I'm just taking their current 739 - > environment and forcing them to reflect through it and process 740 - > the fact is this bugging me enough that I want to change? 741 - > And then let's just say, nah, it's still not$200. 742 - > Let me ask this question Do you live alone?

743 - > I'm gonna make it harder. 744 - > Yes. 745 - > Okay, do you ever take baths? 746 - > No, not too often.

747 - > All right, once a month? 748 - > Yeah, maybe once a month. 749 - > When you have to go take the bath, do you have to clean it? 750 - > That's right.

751 - > They didn't think about that, right? 752 - > It's like fuck, yes. 753 - > I can't just take a bath. 754 - > So there's been times I've come home from the gym, I'm super 755 - > tired, I just want to relax in a bathtub, and I can't.

756 - > I gotta bring out the Clorax, I gotta get on my hands and knees 757 - > and scrub the crap out of it, or I can't take the bath. 758 - > I never thought about that. 759 - > Okay, now that you think that, now, okay, maybe I need to get 760 - > this resolved. 761 - > And then watch what I do here.

762 - > Then they say, nope, I don't want to do any of this. 763 - > Okay, great. 764 - > Let me ask you one more question. 765 - > Has it been getting worse?

766 - > Yes. 767 - > So what you're saying is after every shower, it gets a little 768 - > higher and a little higher and a little higher. 769 - > Yes. 770 - > So even if you don't solve this today, at some point this could 771 - > be up to your knees in a shower.

772 - > And then I could ask, how long does it take to drain? 773 - > Well, it usually goes down about 20 minutes. 774 - > Has that been getting worse? 775 - > Yes.

776 - > Used to be down right away. 777 - > So what I'm hearing is it's getting more and more and more 778 - > clogged. 779 - > So eventually it's going to be completely clogged and you're 780 - > gonna have to deal with it. 781 - > Okay.

782 - > Right? 783 - > Do you see what I'm doing? 784 - > I'm just asking questions to get them to reflect. 785 - > That's it.

786 - > SPEAKER_00: And the thing is here, it's it's kind of like 787 - > marking levels of awareness. 788 - > People are just totally fucking head in the sand, they're 789 - > they're problem unaware. 790 - > Like they're trying, they're trying to be unaware. 791 - > Like my observation of this a lot of times is they might know 792 - > that there's an issue, but it's head in the sand.

793 - > They want to almost hide that there is an issue. 794 - > And it's your questions through discovery to be to realize that, 795 - > hey, they are problem aware, solution unaware, and then it 796 - > goes from solution unaware to solution aware. 797 - > I think it's just an interesting observation, right? 798 - > Because people will generally try to downplay their their 799 - > pitfalls, which is natural, including myself.

800 - > And then in this example, they don't realize that they even 801 - > have an issue until you start questioning them. 802 - > SPEAKER_03: And it's look in most cases, over time, people 803 - > start to really appreciate like, wait a minute, wait a minute. 804 - > And then they get excited, like, thank you, because I never 805 - > thought about that. 806 - > That's right, and now all of a sudden$200 is nothing.

807 - > Come out and fix this, please. 808 - > SPEAKER_00: That's the biggest thing, right? 809 - > When I guess, and this one I want to ask you about is when 810 - > you kind of go from a salesperson to a trusted advisor 811 - > from selling to serving, that's when your prospects are like 812 - > super fucking appreciative of what you do. 813 - > SPEAKER_03: But you gotta remember, you you this was about 814 - > gap, well, it doesn't have to be, but this is about gap 815 - > prospecting, right?

816 - > You you've got to understand how you can build value with these 817 - > people who don't know you in seconds, seconds, milliseconds, 818 - > I would argue, right? 819 - > How do you get someone to stop and be like, oh snap? 820 - > Yes, I need I I I need to dig into this. 821 - > SPEAKER_00: Hmm.

822 - > How do you how do you think about this changes when it's 823 - > inbound? 824 - > So in the online coaching space, a lot of leads actually might be 825 - > inbound, they could be colder, but they're inbound, like they 826 - > might be following the page or come interaction. 827 - > How do you think about that when they've come inbound and you're 828 - > trying to connect with them? 829 - > SPEAKER_03: So am I connecting with them on the phone?

830 - > SPEAKER_00: No, no, let's say like uh DM, Messenger, LinkedIn, 831 - > Instagram, sort of. 832 - > SPEAKER_03: So they reach they reach out to you. 833 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh maybe might they might have interacted with 834 - > content, for instance. 835 - > SPEAKER_03: Ah, got it.

836 - > Okay, okay. 837 - > So which they're very different. 838 - > Which one do you want me to address? 839 - > SPEAKER_00: Let's do like interacting with content, uh, 840 - > connect with you on LinkedIn, the basics that that's very 841 - > common in in my space, more particularly as well.

842 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay, so if they interacted with content, I use 843 - > the content that they interacted with, and then I asked them 844 - > based on this, can I assume you're struggling with XYZ 845 - > problem? 846 - > If so, I'd love to tell help me understand a little more what 847 - > you're dealing with, and let me see if I can help. 848 - > SPEAKER_00: What if it's like person development? 849 - > So let's say it's like um mindset, self-sabotage, all this 850 - > kind of stuff.

851 - > Can you go as direct as that? 852 - > This is a question I often get from clients. 853 - > SPEAKER_03: Of course, why can't you? 854 - > They literally doubt what would they have downloaded?

855 - > Let's say it's self-sabotage, what would they have downloaded? 856 - > SPEAKER_00: Let's say they interacted with a post on that, 857 - > like it was around like self-sabotage as an entrepreneur 858 - > or whatever, and then you're going semi, semi-outbound, I 859 - > guess, because you're connected with them on LinkedIn. 860 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay. 861 - > You just changed, you you shifted.

862 - > So if someone commented on a post, that's outbound. 863 - > Hands down. 864 - > So if someone commented on a post and you want to go talk to 865 - > them and try to sell them, you can and you could say, I noticed 866 - > you commented on XYZ post. 867 - > I'd love to understand what got your attention, what is it you 868 - > liked?

869 - > I mean, I'd look at the comment and see what they said, and I'd 870 - > see what triggers or hints or symptoms of catalysts are 871 - > suggested in that. 872 - > Because this is, I mean, it has to be very um personal, not 873 - > personalized, it's very personal. 874 - > If someone's someone said, Oh, I've been struggling with this 875 - > for a while, then I might say, Um, all right, I understand the 876 - > community city have been struggling with this for a 877 - > while.

878 - > I'd love to talk to you a little bit more about that. 879 - > Can you walk me through it? 880 - > So I'm gonna drag that out, right? 881 - > That's different than if they downloaded uh uh 10 steps on how 882 - > to be more confident.

883 - > Then in that case, I'm like, hey, thanks for downing like 884 - > this. 885 - > Mostly when people download download this, they've been 886 - > struggling with building confidence, and there are two or 887 - > three areas they struggle the most. 888 - > Do either one of these sound familiar too enough? 889 - > So I'd love to talk to you.

890 - > I like to take the content as the transition into what I think 891 - > the problem is. 892 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%. 893 - > How do you um okay? 894 - > So let's say in that in that conversation there, so you 895 - > you're finding out, well, you're identifying the problem, then 896 - > you're going into the pain, then you're personalizing it from 897 - > there.

898 - > Root cause problem in chat. 899 - > And you're doing this true chat, yeah? 900 - > SPEAKER_03: Because the root cause is what you fix. 901 - > You can't fix anything if you don't understand the root cause.

902 - > If you tell me you're you got this dope ass convertible 903 - > sitting in your yard and and and you never drive it because it's 904 - > broken, and I say, I can fix it, but I don't know why it's 905 - > broken. 906 - > Is it the engine? 907 - > Is it the transmission? 908 - > Is it the drivetrain?

909 - > Is it the brakes? 910 - > Is it you know what I'm saying? 911 - > Like if I don't know what it is, how do I fix it? 912 - > So the person that said, What do you mean it's broken?

913 - > Tell me. 914 - > You might say, Well, it's just been sitting around, I can't 915 - > start it. 916 - > Okay, so is it a starter issue? 917 - > Is it a uh a battery issue?

918 - > Is it a um, what do you call those things? 919 - > An alternator issue, right? 920 - > Or is it actually like the pistons are frozen in place and 921 - > I I can fix a battery, I can fix an alternator, I can't redo an 922 - > engine. 923 - > That's you know what I'm saying?

924 - > I can't help you. 925 - > SPEAKER_00: So let's stick with the personal development 926 - > example. 927 - > I think it's just very good for this example because people, 928 - > again, let's just go back to what we discussed previously 929 - > about people being problem fucking unaware or head in the 930 - > sand, right? 931 - > Just that kind of attitude where they want to like escape slash 932 - > avoid the problem.

933 - > If I'm asking you, Kenan, tell me about your fucking 934 - > self-sabotaging habits of drinking and taking drugs all 935 - > the time on LinkedIn, how do you get that prospect to open up? 936 - > Yeah, like as in if you if that's the content, you know 937 - > what I mean? 938 - > SPEAKER_03: You have to okay, you you you can't do this in in 939 - > a vacuum. 940 - > You gotta when you ask this question, you didn't preface it 941 - > for your listeners that you believe they have uh a 942 - > self-sabotage or uh what type of problem do you think they have?

943 - > Self-sabotage? 944 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is this is really common people I work 945 - > with, right? 946 - > SPEAKER_03: Self-sabotage. 947 - > What are two or three what are two or three root causes or 948 - > symptoms that someone experiences who is 949 - > self-sabotaging?

950 - > SPEAKER_00: So the the root cause, you mean the underlying 951 - > issue as to why that's happening? 952 - > So, like let's say like lack of confidence, um, lack of 953 - > confidence. 954 - > SPEAKER_03: Um think about their life. 955 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh like maybe like a repeated, repeated destructive 956 - > habit or some shit, you know what I mean, since they were 957 - > like young.

958 - > SPEAKER_03: Because self-sabotage to me to me isn't 959 - > necessarily a bad habit. 960 - > So I might ask a question like, do you find that you when you 961 - > start things, you never really finish them out of fear that you 962 - > can't get them down or you're not good enough? 963 - > Do you ever find yourself looking at other people and 964 - > being envious because they're getting stuff done and you don't 965 - > think you can? 966 - > So you don't even start.

967 - > See what I'm doing? 968 - > Reflective. 969 - > I understand what creates self-sabotage, not the 970 - > high-level cheesy stuff, but the real deep stuff. 971 - > And then I ask them, are they experiencing any of that?

972 - > And the minute they say yes, they have no choice but to say, 973 - > I should talk to this guy. 974 - > Right? 975 - > I don't even know the space, but give me 15 minutes in that 976 - > space, and I can already tell you, I'm gonna know exactly what 977 - > the clinical elements of self-sabotage are. 978 - > I'm gonna know how they manifest themselves with people, I'm 979 - > gonna know why they happen, and I'm gonna start painting a 980 - > picture to ask them, does this sound familiar?

981 - > Does that sound familiar? 982 - > Right? 983 - > To get them talking. 984 - > Again, notice the key word here, my man, is reflective.

985 - > I'm constantly trying to get people to reflect. 986 - > SPEAKER_00: What do you do in this instance if they're 987 - > unresponsive or not open? 988 - > SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, I that's what we talked about 989 - > earlier. 990 - > I I keep looking for other ways to connect with them.

991 - > So I might, it just depends, it really depends. 992 - > It could be um if I have evidence that this person 993 - > really, really has the problem and and their head in the sand, 994 - > then I might um look for studies that say the impact of it. 995 - > Or I might look for things as people who've gotten out and 996 - > said, look, I don't know if this is you and you haven't gotten 997 - > back to me, but there's people who've who've gotten through 998 - > this and this is what they've experienced.

999 - > And if this is you and this is where you want to go, let's 1000 - > talk. 1001 - > So I I'm just I'm trying to give them avenues, right, to connect. 1002 - > And at some point in time, depending on the size of the 1003 - > deal, whatever, I'm like, okay, I'm not time to people. 1004 - > I can't help people who don't want to help themselves.

1005 - > SPEAKER_00: And from there, so we've identified that issue and 1006 - > we know that we can help them, we've connected with them. 1007 - > How do you generally transition then into pitching the call? 1008 - > SPEAKER_03: Well, I got to get them to admit the problem first. 1009 - > And that's what if they admit the problem, then the call is 1010 - > easy, right?

1011 - > Literally, if if they say, Yep, I have this problem and this 1012 - > sounds so familiar, this sucks, then you say, All right, I'm 1013 - > really excited to hear that. 1014 - > That's what we do here, right? 1015 - > And I'd love 35 minutes to walk you through how we help people 1016 - > in these situations, get a better understanding of how it's 1017 - > impacting you. 1018 - > And this is what I always say: see or determine if we are the 1019 - > person, company, whatever that can help you.

1020 - > I never make an assumption that we can. 1021 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's kind of like the NEPQ, like start, like 1022 - > the start of every call, which is like today's to understand if 1023 - > we can help you, and if we can help you, we'll suggest a 1024 - > solution. 1025 - > If not, we won't even talk about it. 1026 - > Uh, I'd love to kind of get into some of the the semantics about 1027 - > how you guys kind of book calls, the frequency, the no-shows, how 1028 - > you work about throughout that process.

1029 - > Like, are you do do you think a lot about how fast you get them 1030 - > on the phone, how you get them ramped up of uh how warm they 1031 - > are on the call beforehand? 1032 - > Is that something that you you work on? 1033 - > SPEAKER_02: No, no. 1034 - > I mean, no, I think that's a lot of overkill.

1035 - > Yeah. 1036 - > SPEAKER_00: Really? 1037 - > So for your industries, do you struggle with like show-up 1038 - > rates, getting people on the phone, or is that not 1039 - > necessarily a big issue? 1040 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh it is an issue, but it's not an industry issue, 1041 - > it's it's a selling approach issue.

1042 - > So, yeah, we find a lot of clients who are currently doing 1043 - > outbound and stuff like that that have horrible show-up 1044 - > rates. 1045 - > And I can already tell you what that the reason is. 1046 - > They don't haven't found a problem and they strong arm the 1047 - > person. 1048 - > Like, well, just meet me, just meet with that.

1049 - > I don't need to, well, I just can you meet with my rep or we 1050 - > can do this for you. 1051 - > And the person finally says, Okay, I'll take it. 1052 - > And they they just said that to get the person off the phone. 1053 - > So what we don't see high uh no-show rates is when they have 1054 - > to have a problem associated with that meeting, a definable 1055 - > problem.

1056 - > So uh let's just say you sell um oh, in my world, let's just say 1057 - > you sell um digital advertising. 1058 - > I don't freaking know. 1059 - > And you're an SDI for digital advertising. 1060 - > If you can't deliver that meeting with a note that 1061 - > basically says XYZ company has seen an increase in their 1062 - > customer acquisition cost of 15%, right?

1063 - > Andor they this customer or this person has um seen a substantial 1064 - > decline in their ad dollars, return on ad dollars, right? 1065 - > Potential problem. 1066 - > They want to talk about fixing it, then they're not allowed to 1067 - > book the meeting. 1068 - > So when you force the rep to actually, or the SDR to actually 1069 - > understand and identify a problem, get the buyer to say 1070 - > they have that problem, whether they define it or not, then 1071 - > that's a that the what's the word I'm looking for?

1072 - > The no-show rate is much, much, much lower because the person 1073 - > knows they're coming to try to solve that problem. 1074 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man, I I have a crazy story for you on this. 1075 - > It's like uh in my world, like a two-call close is very common 1076 - > for cold traffic. 1077 - > So you run ads to like a V to like a video, and on the second 1078 - > call, the second call is really necessary because the first call 1079 - > is mainly like problem and pain.

1080 - > And the way I think about it is the second call then is 1081 - > personalization and sorry, process and price. 1082 - > Okay, but there's a huge drop-off between call one and 1083 - > call two in general, and the reason being is the guys on call 1084 - > one, when they when they're pitching call two, they're 1085 - > saying, Okay, we'll talk about like next steps on that call. 1086 - > So then the call is booked in 72 hours in advance, and it's next 1087 - > steps call, it's called like a fucking closing call, and 1088 - > obviously that person doesn't show up to get to get their cash 1089 - > taken from them.

1090 - > So the shift that was made was call one was to find out the 1091 - > problem, call two was to give you a personalized roadmap on 1092 - > solving such problem, and that just like that just fucking 1093 - > dramatically like I mean tripled the show-up rate of call two, 1094 - > which then obviously improved close rate, and it's like this 1095 - > is the same thing that we're talking about, but it's how it's 1096 - > positioned, yeah. 1097 - > And similarly when it comes to call one, basically, yeah.

1098 - > SPEAKER_03: Look, in the in the end of the world, at the end of 1099 - > the day, I should say, selling is simple. 1100 - > Two steps does the person have a problem that you can solve and 1101 - > that they want to solve it and they'll want to change. 1102 - > If they agree that they want to change, that's half the sale. 1103 - > The second half the sale is who do they change to?

1104 - > It's that simple. 1105 - > So what you just described in a very short sale is it's easy to 1106 - > do that quickly. 1107 - > You're selling an enterprise, you know, piece of software or 1108 - > whatever that costs$100,000, $500,000, a million dollars. 1109 - > Nobody can say, yep, I have a problem big enough to spend a 1110 - > million dollars on in one call, right?

1111 - > They just can't. 1112 - > And there's all those other people that have to agree with 1113 - > them and blah, blah, blah. 1114 - > So that takes longer, but the but the frame is exactly the 1115 - > same. 1116 - > At some point in time, the buyer or buyer say, yep, we all agree.

1117 - > This problem's too big. 1118 - > We have to change. 1119 - > We got to do something else. 1120 - > Then the second half of the sale is what do we change to?

1121 - > What's the best deal? 1122 - > Who is the greatest probability of closing it for us? 1123 - > Who do we trust? 1124 - > Right?

1125 - > They're separate. 1126 - > They're separate, and you got to treat them separately. 1127 - > SPEAKER_00: Do you give any consideration to how cold the 1128 - > leads are, like how little they know about you or your 1129 - > organization? 1130 - > Does that change to nope?

1131 - > SPEAKER_03: Find the problem. 1132 - > I will say the same thing over and over. 1133 - > Find the problem. 1134 - > Because watch this.

1135 - > If I talk to somebody that I don't think knows anything about 1136 - > sales training and knows nothing about us, nothing. 1137 - > And they're trying to sell me something, but within two 1138 - > minutes of asking me questions, it's clear that they know my 1139 - > space and they know what they're talking about. 1140 - > They have my credibility. 1141 - > Just like that.

1142 - > Right? 1143 - > Just like that. 1144 - > Let's just say I'm uh we get stranded on a desert island with 1145 - > a plane crash, and it's like Hundred people out there, right? 1146 - > No doctors.

1147 - > So we're all freaking out. 1148 - > But then there's one guy, he's not a doctor. 1149 - > One of us gets hurt and he starts asking questions. 1150 - > You know, uh, do you have high blood pressure?

1151 - > Do you have a history of this? 1152 - > Are you allergic to this? 1153 - > Um, you know, I don't know, just ask all these questions and make 1154 - > this guy knows what he's talking about. 1155 - > He's not a doctor, but I trust him, right?

1156 - > So all of a sudden he becomes the island's doctor because he 1157 - > he understands the space, whether he has the credential or 1158 - > not or whatever. 1159 - > Do you see what I'm saying? 1160 - > He may not have been someone in the beginning I would have 1161 - > trusted, but based on his questions, which he you cannot 1162 - > ask questions without some level of demonstrated knowledge. 1163 - > You can't do it.

1164 - > Right? 1165 - > How many questions could you ask around uh what do you call it? 1166 - > Um mechanical engineering. 1167 - > Fucking zero.

1168 - > Zero. 1169 - > Zero. 1170 - > So not only could I tell you nothing about mechanical 1171 - > engineering, but I couldn't even begin to ask questions around 1172 - > mechanical engineering because I don't know what I don't know. 1173 - > Do you see what I'm saying?

1174 - > So the point is, I don't care about any of that. 1175 - > I just want to ask questions to understand, and that's their 1176 - > job. 1177 - > The more questions you ask, the better you know the space, you 1178 - > build credibility. 1179 - > SPEAKER_00: I want to ask you uh a different question around 1180 - > ramping reps, all that kind of just.

1181 - > What's the best way in your world to ramp a rep in terms of 1182 - > product knowledge, in terms of IQ, in terms of getting on the 1183 - > phones or getting on the outbound messages? 1184 - > How do you think about that problem? 1185 - > SPEAKER_03: On ramp is a systems problem. 1186 - > When you have a hard time getting people ramped up, it's 1187 - > not an onboarding process problem, it's a systems problem.

1188 - > And it's because you don't recognize that learning and 1189 - > performance are two separate things. 1190 - > So you need to build a system that one identifies what 1191 - > information and what skill set do these reps need to be uh 1192 - > world-class reps. 1193 - > Okay. 1194 - > Then you need to train them in that.

1195 - > Then you need to assess their absorption of the training, then 1196 - > you need to be able to assess their um uh ability to do the 1197 - > train, to do what you taught them. 1198 - > Can they do it? 1199 - > So your your entire process of system, first and foremost, is 1200 - > to one identify everything they need to know, build training and 1201 - > inputs that teach them that, then have uh processes that 1202 - > assess their absorption of that, and then three, their ability to 1203 - > actually do it.

1204 - > Okay, apply it. 1205 - > Once that's done, you have to have a system that allows, then 1206 - > forces them to use it in action, and then you have processes that 1207 - > evaluate how they do it in action, both passive and active. 1208 - > So active is you watch them and you tell them what to do. 1209 - > Passive is you build processes that they can't execute if they 1210 - > don't know how to do it.

1211 - > So I'd make this up. 1212 - > It might say you have to send a lead across with uh with um the 1213 - > problem, impact, and root cause to the rep. 1214 - > Well, if they don't know how to get the problem, impact, root 1215 - > cause, they can't execute that. 1216 - > So that's a like see what I'm saying.

1217 - > So that's a passive reinforcement that gives you 1218 - > notification they don't know what they're doing. 1219 - > So whatever you taught them didn't sink in. 1220 - > And that's what we call the opportunity layer. 1221 - > So we break it out skills layer, opportunity layer.

1222 - > So if you you can teach them in the skills layer, but you need 1223 - > to carry that to the opportunity layer and assess are they doing 1224 - > it? 1225 - > And here's the crazy part. 1226 - > Now you need a feedback loop. 1227 - > So you have to build all of that.

1228 - > Then when you see the rep can't do it, you send them back to the 1229 - > training and go through it all over again. 1230 - > SPEAKER_00: How frequently do you meet with the reps, like on 1231 - > a one-to-one basis, as like a sales leader, sales manager, 1232 - > like how much in the like how much of his in nature, how much 1233 - > of it is in nurture? 1234 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's 90% uh nurture. 1235 - > Like you, you, you're no matter how smart someone is, it's 1236 - > practice.

1237 - > Take the best, most talented football player in the world, 1238 - > right? 1239 - > You get him on the pros. 1240 - > If he's not nurtured all day long, he will never be as good 1241 - > as everybody else. 1242 - > Right?

1243 - > His runway may be a little shorter, but still, it's 1244 - > nurture, nurture, nurture all the way. 1245 - > So that's what I just I think what I just shared is you got to 1246 - > build a nurture engine. 1247 - > Right? 1248 - > A whole nurture.

1249 - > Everybody just wants to think training is here's this run. 1250 - > So yeah, the manager's a linchpin. 1251 - > So whether you use, you know, that tool I shared with you, AI 1252 - > Keenan, it's brilliant for doing it. 1253 - > It's role play, reps can watch, it's scoring and all that stuff, 1254 - > or the manager has to meet with a rep at least two times a week 1255 - > to look at that stuff.

1256 - > But notice too, you asked about what does the rep do with that 1257 - > person. 1258 - > Notice how I built it. 1259 - > There has to be ways for you to see in action if that person is 1260 - > doing what you taught them. 1261 - > That is doesn't always necessarily mean you have to 1262 - > meet with the rep then.

1263 - > But once you learn that, you have to meet with the rep. 1264 - > Yeah, let me show you something. 1265 - > Let me show you this, let me show you that. 1266 - > You're not doing this, you're not doing that.

1267 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I guess the way that we're running 1268 - > it for Aura now, so that that's kind of more on a tech sales 1269 - > side, similar to your world, is we have STRs, daily stand-ups, 1270 - > daily review messaging, and then they're coming with like you did 1271 - > this, so what they did yesterday, what the plan did 1272 - > today, the biggest bottlenecks. 1273 - > And then we're basically like QAing uh QA basically problem 1274 - > solving from there.

1275 - > SPEAKER_03: Are you QAing outcomes or are you QA ing 1276 - > behaviors? 1277 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, inputs, input variables first. 1278 - > So could tell me that I'm retarded, but but the way I 1279 - > think about it is like activity level first, top down, when 1280 - > they're when they're ramping, okay? 1281 - > So we get on the on Voix Consulting, it was taking 21 1282 - > days to get people on messages.

1283 - > But on Aura, I'm actually getting them on messages in 10 1284 - > days, and then they're on low volume, so let's say 10 to 20 1285 - > messages a day. 1286 - > We're reviewing them like crazy, and I want to see that their 1287 - > inputs are pretty solid. 1288 - > The output then is like the the conversation flow, and then 1289 - > we'll review though that conversation flow. 1290 - > And I'm not I'm not measuring outcome yet.

1291 - > I don't give a shit about that, and then I want to guess kind of 1292 - > get reps, like literally reps done. 1293 - > So then after like 30 days, they're at an activity level 1294 - > that's like respectable, let's just say like 50 touch points a 1295 - > day, and then I'm looking then at a conversion metric anywhere 1296 - > between one to five percent of booked meetings. 1297 - > So, what that would mean is if I fucking hit 100 people that day, 1298 - > I'm booking anywhere from one to five meetings in that day, and 1299 - > I'm only letting outcome come into play from day 30 to day 90, 1300 - > and by 90, they should be at peak outcome, which is five 1301 - > percent.

1302 - > Now, five percent is ambitious to be fair, but three percent, 1303 - > three percent is still fucking solid, and that's for board my 1304 - > businesses. 1305 - > That's the way I think about it. 1306 - > But no, I'm not saying that's 100% accurate, but I'm saying 1307 - > that's just the way we do it. 1308 - > SPEAKER_03: If you call the inputs the behaviors, you're 1309 - > doing it the right way, yeah.

1310 - > SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, you know, they're not sending 1311 - > out purely stupid shit, but it's like we do we we do want that 1312 - > input variable going up, which is like personalization, of 1313 - > course, uh going, as I said, like funnel hacking, loom 1314 - > videoing, breakdowns, and so on and so forth. 1315 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 1316 - > I mean, what I would do is I would write down or I'd be clear 1317 - > that every single new person coming on board knows what good 1318 - > looks like and knows what the behaviors are and knows what 1319 - > they're supposed to be doing.

1320 - > It's not the it's not the the mediums, the the loom video, 1321 - > whatever, it's not that. 1322 - > It's I want to focus on what are they saying. 1323 - > So my world, everything is product product centric. 1324 - > So what I look for is did their emails target a real problem?

1325 - > Was it was it um written in a way that was intriguing? 1326 - > Was it did it create interest once the once the person read 1327 - > it? 1328 - > Um, did it tie to real real root causes, right? 1329 - > And let's just say that's the case, then I'm like, okay, then 1330 - > when they sent the lead over to the to the rep, or if it's the 1331 - > rep who did it themselves in Salesforce, do I see that 1332 - > information and is that bid information good?

1333 - > Then on the next phase, when they move to the next stage, is 1334 - > there more bid information? 1335 - > Did they define the size of the problem now? 1336 - > Did they get the root cause? 1337 - > I mean the um the future state.

1338 - > Um, is the cost of inaction clearly defined? 1339 - > And if yes, okay, then the next one becomes all right, as they 1340 - > get to forecasting, are the five C's there? 1341 - > Do I believe the customer feels in control? 1342 - > Do I believe the customer is the confidence this could work?

1343 - > Do I believe that the customer um uh uh clarity control? 1344 - > Oh my god, I'm forgetting them. 1345 - > Does I get these five C's? 1346 - > Are those all there?

1347 - > And it's as I go through this, when I see something start to 1348 - > break down, I go back. 1349 - > Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. 1350 - > You forecast some with only one C. 1351 - > Why in the world would you do that?

1352 - > Now it's breaking down, right? 1353 - > So I don't let it break down. 1354 - > So it's a very standard set of things, usually information and 1355 - > behaviors that I that I want everybody to do, that everybody 1356 - > understands has to do it relatively the same way or 1357 - > capture the same things. 1358 - > And then I just look for it breaks down in the process and I 1359 - > execute the feedback loops to go back and make sure they know 1360 - > what to do, how to do it and practice it.

1361 - > SPEAKER_00: How long do you give people like reps? 1362 - > How long do you give reps to to get up to that highest quality 1363 - > in terms of outcomes? 1364 - > Like, do you give them like a 60-day window, a 90-day window? 1365 - > Like, when when should you cut?

1366 - > When should you keep? 1367 - > SPEAKER_03: It's a behaviors um results thing to me. 1368 - > So you ever see the four quadrant box bait behaviors 1369 - > versus results? 1370 - > SPEAKER_01: No.

1371 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay, so the X Access, think of behaviors. 1372 - > Are they doing the things that we want them to do? 1373 - > They have the right attitude, are they team players? 1374 - > Are they working hard?

1375 - > Are they asking for help? 1376 - > Are they engaged? 1377 - > Like you know when someone is demonstrating all the right 1378 - > behaviors, right? 1379 - > And then the bottom one is results.

1380 - > Are they getting them and are they not? 1381 - > If someone is, you I want everybody ideally in the top 1382 - > right box, getting all the results, demonstrating all the 1383 - > behaviors. 1384 - > The bottom right box, results, is I they're getting the 1385 - > results, but not demonstrating the behaviors. 1386 - > Think the think sports athletes were a pain in the ass, like 1387 - > they're really, really good, but no one wants to work with them.

1388 - > I I give those people 30 days to change the behaviors, or I get 1389 - > them out results or not. 1390 - > Why? 1391 - > Because behaviors is a choice. 1392 - > You can either do it or not do it.

1393 - > Right. 1394 - > It's so I'm asking you to get your shit together, even though 1395 - > you have the results and you don't, I look at that as 1396 - > insubordination. 1397 - > You're choosing not to work within the culture of the 1398 - > organization. 1399 - > So I'm not gonna put up with that.

1400 - > On the other side, though, you have the person who's doing 1401 - > everything right and they're just not getting the results. 1402 - > Depending on the person, I'm either giving them more time or 1403 - > recognize it's just not the right job for them, and I'm 1404 - > gonna tell them that and either try to find another job in the 1405 - > company or be like, look, I think you should try something 1406 - > else. 1407 - > You're doing everything right, it's just not who you are, or I 1408 - > give them more time, they're gonna get there, they're doing 1409 - > everything right, they're gonna get there, I give them a little 1410 - > more time.

1411 - > So that's a one-on-one basis. 1412 - > And obviously, the bottom left box, no behaviors, no results, I 1413 - > get rid of them immediately. 1414 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that. 1415 - > I like that a lot.

1416 - > I've seen I've seen that too, to be honest, in our reps. 1417 - > Like they're just in the wrong role at that time, and they're 1418 - > they're basically doing the wrong thing inside the company. 1419 - > Yeah, that's awesome, man. 1420 - > Cool, dude.

1421 - > And lastly, before we finish up, uh, so talk tell me about the 1422 - > new book. 1423 - > Like, why what's the driver for creating a new book? 1424 - > And what are you seeing being different in the industry now 1425 - > going in for 2026? 1426 - > SPEAKER_03: So it dawned on me that not many sales 1427 - > organizations have systems, it's very reactive.

1428 - > Um, we actually identify in the new book four types of orgs. 1429 - > We have the compounding org, which is the one that works 1430 - > brilliantly, but then you have the heroic org. 1431 - > They're the ones who every quarter is a struggle. 1432 - > They're asking people to discount to pull deals in.

1433 - > They're the ones that say, Oh, I can't talk to you this week. 1434 - > It's the end of the month or it's the end of the quarter, 1435 - > right? 1436 - > There's there's it's just frantic. 1437 - > It's everybody's pushing it and trying to make it happen.

1438 - > Then there's the random org, and it's where sales enablement and 1439 - > sales leaders are constantly just dumping new things in. 1440 - > Let's try this training, or we got this new uh uh this new 1441 - > playbook, and we have this new tool, and it's just random, 1442 - > random acts of stuff. 1443 - > They're just do, but it's never connected, they don't know what 1444 - > they're trying to move. 1445 - > So, and then there's the peacock, brilliantly structured, 1446 - > brilliantly structured, great methodology, um, excellent 1447 - > playbooks, everything's great, but you're not moving the 1448 - > number.

1449 - > Why? 1450 - > Because it's not connected, they haven't um built the underlying 1451 - > system to make it work, right? 1452 - > So everybody's one of those four types, and uh, I recognize that 1453 - > 99% are not compounding, so that the whole business is the whole 1454 - > um function of sales is is broken. 1455 - > Now, most people won't admit it.

1456 - > That's the crazy part, and that's going to be our 1457 - > challenge. 1458 - > Most people will not admit it. 1459 - > It's particularly a lot of people are heroics, so they make 1460 - > the number, right? 1461 - > They just don't understand the cost of making that number over 1462 - > and over and over.

1463 - > I've done this before and I have to go back and look, but just 1464 - > back at the napkin, we burn hundreds of billions of dollars 1465 - > across every sales org in the country, if not the world, 1466 - > giving discounts to get a deal in in Q1 over Q2 in 2025 over 1467 - > 2026. 1468 - > That's not selling, man. 1469 - > You know what I'm saying? 1470 - > But everybody celebrates it.

1471 - > And so uh I wrote the book to try to solve that problem. 1472 - > And the other one is we spend billions and billions of dollars 1473 - > on, I told you this before we recorded, billions and billions 1474 - > and billions of dollars in sales enablement, billions of dollars 1475 - > and billions of dollars in tools over the last 12 to 15 years. 1476 - > It's exponentially grown up the amount of money and investment 1477 - > we've made in the sales org to only watch every single metric 1478 - > in sales go the wrong direction.

1479 - > We're broken, so I want to fix it. 1480 - > SPEAKER_00: I think we we've definitely fallen ourselves into 1481 - > the heroic uh quadrant because like we we can rip we can rip 1482 - > some fucking hilarious deals at the end of the month, but it 1483 - > does have a cost, right? 1484 - > And it's like the the net the net difference of that is we 1485 - > would make more money if we didn't push for that deal in 1486 - > that moment on a long enough time horizon. 1487 - > And I'm I'm actually even experiencing that now because we 1488 - > run events as well, man.

1489 - > We run in-person events, and um I'm seeing that with some of the 1490 - > deals because like it's like a standard price, but we include 1491 - > it as part of our consulting or whatever, and it's like there 1492 - > there is like it's called cannibalization from software, 1493 - > right? 1494 - > That it's the gap between how much money you're making, how 1495 - > much money you could be making because you've wrongly or 1496 - > incorrectly positioned your pricing. 1497 - > SPEAKER_03: I always I always like to say I get it, I get it, 1498 - > it doesn't make sense, but I get it why they do it, particularly 1499 - > public companies, but it's still very short-sighted.

1500 - > But I always like to say, how is a dollar on October on September 1501 - > 30th worth less on October 1st? 1502 - > It's not. 1503 - > How is a dollar worth more on December 31st than it is on 1504 - > January 1st? 1505 - > It's not it's not.

1506 - > So give me the dollar the next day. 1507 - > Sorry, give me the dollar and if I even if I was a publicly 1508 - > traded company, I'd get I don't care. 1509 - > Hit my stock this month. 1510 - > I don't care.

1511 - > Fine. 1512 - > I missed, I missed our our our revenue projections by you know, 1513 - > our earnings per share, whatever by I'm making up a two percent 1514 - > or what it's probably whatever point tenth of a percent, and 1515 - > our earnings are off by you know 90, 90 million dollars. 1516 - > Fine. 1517 - > Next month, I didn't give that discount, I'll have that deal, 1518 - > so I didn't give 20% away.

1519 - > I didn't buy a quarter at 20%, and I'll exceed it and it'll go 1520 - > right back up. 1521 - > And it'll over time I will win. 1522 - > Over time I will win. 1523 - > SPEAKER_00: So in our world, this is done on monthly because 1524 - > it's monthly revenue is managed because it's fucking stupid.

1525 - > That's the reason why. 1526 - > It's because it it it's it's it's super short-sighted, right? 1527 - > So it's like how much money is the business making per month? 1528 - > And I don't agree with this, but I'm gonna say that's like the 1529 - > lingo of the market, and that's where people push for big 1530 - > numbers and then they get a massive rip back the next month.

1531 - > SPEAKER_03: Makes no sense. 1532 - > Take it a week later, it's still coming. 1533 - > And what we've also learned too is when when you don't force 1534 - > people into decision, you don't lose deals you shouldn't have 1535 - > lost. 1536 - > So not only do you make discounts, you end up losing 1537 - > deals.

1538 - > SPEAKER_00: Hmm, yeah, man. 1539 - > So so much, so much there as it is. 1540 - > Let's do a turrow podcast and a new book. 1541 - > Send it to me when it's out, or I'll buy it when it's out, 1542 - > should I say, and we'll group it on that, man.

1543 - > All right, dude, you're an absolute legend. 1544 - > I want to say a master, master thank you. 1545 - > Let me stop reporting here, but yeah, huge, huge thank you for 1546 - > everything, man. 1547 - > You're an absolute legend.

1548 - > SPEAKER_02: Thank you, baby.