ISEs3 Ep20: Sheevaun Thatcher - Gaining Gravitas from the Get-Go

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to ISE Season 3 Enablement History, broadcasting from OSC, the orchestratesales.com property.

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Speaker C: All right, well, hello everyone and welcome to Inside sales enablement season three, the finale, episode 20. And who better to save the best for last than Siobhan Thatcher herself? Siobhan, say hello to the gang. Uh, everyone already knows, you know, right? Hello gang out here in enablement world. And uh, if you haven't heard the news, you can officially get Siobhan as a service. And no, we're not talking about someone trying to replicate her as a bot. She has officially launched Siobhan Thatcher.com awesome site. Go check it out. And, uh, she is providing her services. You wanted to say a few things about that real quickly. We'll start with the commercial. How about that?

Speaker D: Yeah, sure. I mean, it is, um, yeah, I mean, through all the years that I've been doing enablement, you know, we run into frustrations and things that don't go the way that we anticipate. And so I've learned the hard way most of the time about what works and what does not. And I've learned how to make things work very quickly and effectively and prescriptive and focused. And that's really what I want to work and help companies with is as I, you know, the line on the thing is I want to help companies cut through the chaos. There is so much noise and so much chaos and all of this that the time that they want their Seller selling has gotten even worse because of all of these new things, right? Everybody's talking AI, but then all of a sudden these sellers are presented for five or six new AI tools. That doesn't help them, it just makes it, it just makes it harder for them to do their job. So I'm not saying AI is not a good way go. I'm saying that these companies need help to figure out how do we really make sure that our sellers are doing the things that are really going to move the needle, are going to move the needle with precision and actually help revenue move forward where it is predictable and you actually have an idea what the outcomes are going to be. You're not just throwing spaghetti against the

Speaker C: wall and that they have the environment to get it done. Whether it's AI or whether it's good

Speaker D: old, whether it's Google sheets, who cares, right? Are they focusing on the right thing? Because if a process is broken, it doesn't matter what tools you throw at it.

Speaker C: Bingo. And if anyone knows process and enablement, it's Siobhan. She's been here. What a perfect way to end our past, present, future, uh, edition of the podcast, season three. Then, um, with Siobhan, who was there from the beginning, um, and she has attained the highest heights, I would argue one of the few to truly be an enablement executive. Uh, when you are leading, uh, enablement for Ringcentral and then Slack and then Salesforce officially itself, there's not much more of a pinnacle than being an executive in those companies and running enablement. So listen closely as we hop into this episode everyone. And with that Siobhan, I'll dive in with just kind of let's get in the Wayback Machine a little bit. When did Siobhan Thatcher first hear the words sales enablement?

Speaker D: I first heard them in 2012 at a Forrester conference. I believe that's when I first heard it. Um, I've been doing it for a long time before that. I mean I would venture to say that the work I did, ah, as a pre sales leader, right, As a sales consulting. I mean I've been doing enablement stuff for a very long time before that. But in the role of enablement and what it's come to be known. I started that in 2008, but I heard the term first by Forrester. Forrester were the first ones who glammed onto it. Gartner would have nothing to do with it. They didn't believe it was real. They never nothing But Forrester did. And that is where I Met Scott Santucci and Brian Lambert was through that. Now, unfortunately, it only lasted a couple of years. And then Forrester made the decision that enablement and marketing and all that were all one big happy family. And, you know, and it went away, which was unfortunate, but that was, that was really the first time I heard that term. Before that I was the VP of Global Success Metrics.

Speaker C: I didn't realize that Forrester had combined everything back in. I thought, uh, sales enablement had remained a standalone. That in and of itself is.

Speaker D: No, the conference disappeared. There was a sales naval conference that they ran for I think three years. And I went to everyone. And then in year four they decided that, no, no, it's all part of marketing. So we're just going to blump it in with the marketing conference. And it was like, no.

Speaker C: So it was a track inside of a conference that didn't have its own identity.

Speaker A: And it's.

Speaker D: It had its own identity, but then it lost its identity.

Speaker C: Got it. Okay, interesting. So then you kind of touched on it. Let's. Let's shift into the Sales Enablement society now. Revenue enablement. Right.

Speaker A: Itself.

Speaker C: When did that come into your professional journey? Because I don't believe Scott had founded it by that point.

Speaker D: No, he hadn't founded it yet. In September, I think it was September 2015, he and Jim. Jim Ninovagi, yes, that's his soul. He and Jim came out to the Bay area and invited 17 of us to meet at a Marriott in San Jose to sit around a table and talk about this new idea that they were thinking about. And so there was me and Daniel west and uh, Roderick Jefferson and a few others. Right. We all came together. We didn't know each other. There was no network for what we did. So that happened. And then a little bit later, Scott started up the group in the bay in, um, D.C. and then it was after that that Palm springs occurred in 2016. That's where it really started. As far as I could, as, ah, far as I could tell, he was part of Anderson. And he just managed to get Anderson to pay for, uh, a bolt on for an afternoon after their conference. So in order for me to go to the bolt on, I went to the conference. That's where I met Chris Kingman and you know, folks like that. But it was that afternoon that really changed things.

Speaker C: Right. That's the room where it happened for those.

Speaker D: That's the room where it happened. And it was such a different take on what it is that we did. And I realized that this really did have legs that we could make this a profession and not just a whole bunch of salesy teachers like it was before.

Speaker C: So as someone who is not in the room where it happened, the, the three primary takeaways from that meeting that I've remained focused on are the three founding positions of the uh, of the society which you were right there for the creation of. I'm just curious and just as a quick flyover, one that um, enablement was in fact a strategic approach to eliminating friction across the entire revenue engine. Not just training and onboarding and coaching, but also. So that's more talent, right? Talent, enablement, message enablement, demand management and administration of the commercial process. Then two was that it really needed to be run as a cross functional business within a business. And three was that there was an aspiration to get to the C suite and be a chief productivity Officer. I think is what you all landed on. Which again, arguably I think you're one of the few that ever attained that kind of a height. No matter what you call it. Didn't need it to need a specific title. Right. So of those, what still resonates with you today? First of all, did I get them right? Is that kind of.

Speaker D: You got them right? You got them right? I mean the first is that it, you know, it's real, it's a strategic approach was this is a real thing and that there does need to be, there does need to be process and there does need to be structure around it, which uh, is true. Right. And it was, it's that structure. When I talk about the business within a business, when I talk about my four pillars, when I talk about how enablement is an investment, not a cost center, that is all tied into that.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker D: And so I uh, firmly believe that, yeah, it is a very much a strategic approach to how companies can go to market and the support structure needed to support that, um, the cross functional piece, that was one of the biggest things that I learned and the biggest impact that I've had at every company that I've been at because I was able to show very, very quickly that enablement is in fact the hub of an organization. We talk to everybody and should be talking to everybody because everyone is a seller, everybody has a viewpoint, everybody interacts in some fashion with how the company exists and it's how to figure all that out and how get them to talk to each other. And I think the biggest relationship that I figured out fairly early on was between marketing and sales. Right. How do we make sure that sales are not just doing brochure Wear. And then marketing is delivered, delivering customer consumable selling information that the sellers can actually talk about. Right. So it was figuring that one out and that one, to me that just came down to two questions. Right. The content coming from marketing, uh, what's in it for the sellers is the first thing. And the second thing is, uh, how's it going to help the customers buy from them? Right. Because up to that point, and still I see it a lot, is that marketing is telling sales how to sell. Hey, do this, run it this way. And it's like, hold on, we're in sales for a reason. And let's just, you know, give me the five to ten open ended questions. I need to have the conversation. Let me take it from there.

Speaker C: Right, right, right.

Speaker D: And so it was figuring that out. So number two is really important. And then number three, getting to the C suite is all about this. Responsible two, not for. Right. We have to be able to have that relationship where it's a strategic partnership from the top all the way down. Or it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, what kind of talent you throw at it, how good the programs are. All it takes is one influential frontline manager and the whole thing's a house of cards.

Speaker C: Right, right.

Speaker D: And so you have to have that relationship all through the sales hierarchy and the enablement hierarchy to ensure that everybody are strategic partners with this. So, yeah, all three of them still resonate.

Speaker C: Awesome. What else? Um, so I tend towards those. I think they were the most publicized coming out. But I know you all talked about a lot of amazing things. As you look back, was there anything that started to take hold there that you got really excited about that maybe didn't. I won't say make the cut, but isn't still part of kind of the focus of enablement today that maybe you'd like to see more emphasis? Yeah.

Speaker D: I think I hear a lot of people saying, hey, you've got great gravitas. How do I get that? I hear that a lot. Right. And it's like, well, first, well, I mean, first of all, you have to take the stairs. You're not going to get gravitas taking the elevator. Right. You've got to go, you've got to go that route. But the other thing that it does is it tells us that we have to be able to believe in ourselves and know that when we walk into those rooms, we know enablement better than anybody else. Right, right. Being folks that are typically in service, we have a tendency to wait until people tell us what they want us to do. Instead of us going in and saying, uh, I love what you're talking about. Let me give you my opinion. Now let's work out again. It comes back to that strategic partnership. But it was meeting people at that event like the professors Robert and Howard and meeting, uh, Juliana and Bill and Bob Britton and SC and just meeting these people that believed in this and actually had, you know, Tanya Schultz had a real strong understanding of where we needed this to go. Yes. Uh, and all we wanted and all we needed was a network and other people that looked at it the same way. Right. I mean, there was an event that Scott still talks about where we were talking about what do we call ourselves. And I'm a big time introvert. I know it's hard to believe, but I am a big time introvert. It was really. I was very uncomfortable being at that thing because I'm not. I usually just go sit in the corner and don't say much. But we were talking about what we call ourselves, and my LinkedIn actually said, Chief Productivity Officer.

Speaker C: Oh, that's awesome.

Speaker D: Right? And I hadn't said anything. And there was a guy from a, uh, manufacturing company. He's like, I can't call myself that. HR says I'm not allowed. And I stood up. Totally.

Speaker C: There we go.

Speaker D: Different from what I would ever do. I stood up and I said, it doesn't matter what they call you, it matters what you call you. And I call myself the Chief Productivity Officer. I really don't care what they put down in hr.

Speaker C: Awesome walk with that confidence.

Speaker D: Yeah. And. And that was. That's where, you know, where this Gravitas title came from is I believe that we have something to say. I believe that our experience and our knowledge. We have a viewpoint that no sales leader will ever have. We have a viewpoint that no marketing leader will ever have. And our viewpoint and our point of view is from the insights that we get with all of the folks that we deal with and the ability to tie it all together, wrap it up in a nice bow, and make sure that the company understands that they're going in the right direction. And ultimately that the customers recognize the people they're dealing with are ones who are very much customer first. Right. I've been talking to customer first thing for years. Years. Like, I get asked a lot of time, who are my stakeholders? I'm like, it's not. I said that my partners are the sales leaders. Right. Frontline manager and, uh, up. My stakeholders are our customers. Because if they're not Buying from us, then we got nothing anyway.

Speaker C: Right, right, right. So how about community identity? I mean we had a big shift in 2023 and the uh, res, uh was officially formed. We shift from sales enablement to revenue enablement. And I'm hearing a little bit of everything. I'm hearing AI enablement these days. I'm hearing sales excellence. And get rid of the word enablement. It never stuck. Where kind of do you land in that camp? What, what did you think when we changed the revenue and what's kind of the present state, you think?

Speaker D: So it uh, when I first heard revenue enablement it was, it was long before that and I really dug my heels in. I was like, nope, nope, not revenue enablement. And they're like, well, why? Why not? And I said because the people that I work with, the people that I support. Because at that time I was doing full corporate enablement, right? Supporting all of Ringcentral, not just the sellers. I said not everybody I'm supporting has, is directly uh, aligned on their performance with revenue. And so for me I find that very restricting. But then I took a different view on it and I sat back and thought, no, actually everybody is in some way associated with the revenue that the organization gets because the revenue is what keeps the organization going forward. So the switch to revenue enablement didn't really bother me. Now there is a lot of talk now, as you said, about the word enablement itself from the very beginning, when you hear about enablers in psychology, it's not a good thing. Look at enablers, you know, as a terribly good thing, but we didn't have any other words. So now I'm looking much more of it as a, you know, a go to market growth opportunity. A uh, rather than just enablement, which is typically looked at as like a, a slice of the pie. I'm looking at it as it is a growth engine that we work across the whole organization. It isn't just sales enablement as a one off term. It is corporate growth and how we support that corporate growth. So I'm going away from the enablement term a little too. But it's not, it's not a bad term. It's because it does not fully explain what it is that we do because we don't do just enablement. I work with marketing leaders and helping them define what the go to market is with C Suite to say these are the things that you need to take a look at if you're really going to move your company forward. You've got to focus. Are you Trying to do um, optimization and save money? Are you trying to be disruptive and break things and spend money? What do you, what are you trying to do and helping them actually figure that out? Because that is what is going to drive the kinds of programs that get put into place.

Speaker C: So it sounds like the, maybe the overarching is. It's, it's go to market. You're doing go to market. Like what, what do you consider looking at your homepage itself? You're right. I didn't even think about it through that lens. But the word enablement isn't there.

Speaker D: Nope.

Speaker C: It's sale. Uh, it's 40 plus years of sales productivity experience I half expected from what you just shared to see go to market. Right. I'm um, hearing go to market enablement, which almost is two different ones all encompassing and one's a little more focused in the vernacular. What, what, what do you think maybe is the, the future if you were to re, to think through the lens of hey, where the, the Revenue Enablement society still exists, is there an opportunity for them to become more all encompassing? What would you call that?

Speaker D: I think it already is becoming all, all more encompassing.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker D: The difference between the revenue enabled society and the other ones that I've encountered and come across and done presentations at and things like that, you're everywhere. Is that number one, it's a bunch of volunteers. It's people that are there to support the profession itself. That's what I see is the revenue enabled society is there to say there is a place that you can go, there is a network that you can meet with where nobody has any type of agenda. It is just there to help each other. Right. I don't see that so much in the other ones they're looking to, uh, Right. But this is what I see from this group challenges. Absolutely. It's, it's, there's definitely been up and down and up and down and up and down. And it's. I, I will never miss as long as I'm able. I will never miss a Revenue Society conference.

Speaker C: Love it.

Speaker D: Right. Because it is, it's an opportunity for me. It's exhausting for me because you know, I get, people pull me aside all the time to ask me questions and all that. You know, I go hide in the bathroom every so often. Right. And, and pull my feet up because I've been caught in the bathroom with my fancy shoes. People see them and start asking me questions. So I gotta, you know, pull my feet up and kind of hide in the corner. But, but I Wouldn't miss it because of uh, the learning that can happen in that short few days.

Speaker C: That's awesome. And the coaching, counseling, uh, inspiring that you can do, being there. And thank you for that. We've been talking about enablement history a good bit. We've gone a little bit to the present, so let's shift to the future. Um, those two little words that start with A and end with I come to mind. But, um, what do you see? Maybe the future of the community, maybe a few recommendations that you can share and the future that you're trying to impart through your business, kind of through those couple different lenses.

Speaker D: Yeah. So there's a few things. I mean from a fundamental perspective, uh, if you're not already learning prompt engineering and how to interact with a lot of these tools, as an enablement person, you're already behind.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Because I believe that the days of the big corporate decks, I believe the days of all this heavy duty competitive training, I believe the days of um, certifications and all those are going the way of the dodo. Because I can get answers with a well designed prompt in a matter of seconds. That in the past could have taken weeks or months of learning. And so onboarding is changing. Ongoing enablement is changing. What we need to become experts in, we need to be experts in prompt engineering. Period, end of sentence. Um, we need to all be like Jonathan Carver. Right. That guy creates these amazing prompts. I know there's a lot of others out there, but we need to be experts like that. I know you've taken AI training. I've taken AI training because we realize that these tools, they, they can connect the dots faster than any of us can. Doesn't mean it's right.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: That is the. This is where. Yeah, this is where I see a lot of, a lot of people fall down is they take whatever they get back and think it's, you know, uh, to coin a phrase, gospel truth. When in fact if you don't vet this information, any hi tool will give you an answer with the same level of confidence whether it's right or total and absolute bs.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: And then if you tell them it's wrong and then give it the right answer.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: No, that's what I'm at. Yeah, that's what I meant.

Speaker D: Do you want to dig deeper on what you just told me is the right answer? Sure.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Love that.

Speaker C: So, yeah, actually we're uh, sponsored by GTMAI Academy and Jonathan Carfor Coach K. So huge, ah, fan of that. Any, any other Resources that you've found helpful as you've made the pivot?

Speaker D: Uh, I, I just. Every single day I go out, I've got, um, some sites that I take a look at. Uh, TLDR is one. Um, there is. I'm. I, it's funny, I just went through my emails this morning and I think I moved a bunch of them out. And so I, I don't, I don't have the names of them, but there are a number of them and I'm happy to share it later. Of, um, that I get information from and what's going on in the world right now. Right. What's happening? What is AI, what's really going on? Jonathan's aunt Jonathan's site. Right. What he posts is really good. Um, and it's, it's more about being, being curious, being willing to experiment. Uh, most of the AI tools, you can get a test account for free. Just get them and try it. Just try them, figure out what they can do, and then you can figure out how you can use them the best. Um, they just speed things up.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So, uh, maybe if I could make a recommendation, what would be awesome is maybe on your site itself, we could point the viewers to a, uh, section where maybe you share some of your trust.

Speaker D: Oh, that's a great idea.

Speaker C: And then we get a two for one of encouraging folks to visit your site and check out what you're up to and, um, have a few, you know, newsletters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: And so that's a great idea. I'm gonna do that.

Speaker C: Awesome. We're excited to see that, Siobhan. And maybe that's a good place to land so that maybe you have a few, few fewer folks looking for your shoes, uh, in the, the nearest lavatory. Um, maybe end with a thing or two that you've shared that you've heard feedback. Man, Siobhan, that's a game changer. I know you've covered some of them. Gravitas was the big one for me. Uh, uh, whenever I say the word gravitas, I give you credit because having a seat at a table is so critical and even more so now. And what you just shared is the key to that. A lot of it is making sure you know your AI stuff and prompting and investing in that. Any other final words that are maybe even more generic that you've shared with folks that you've received some feedback like, man, I really needed to hear that from you.

Speaker D: So there's a few things. One, uh, of them is, um, don't trade Innovation for increment. What I see a lot is that people try to do little, little fixes and put band aids here and band aids there and you know, all that kind of stuff. Stop. Rethink what you've got. There is nothing worse than using new tech with old artifact, Right? If you've got old stuff carrying through and it's, it's not gonna, it's not gonna help you. Right? And that is looking at everything. It's looking at process, it's looking at delivery, it's looking at, um, uh, messaging. It's looking at everything. It's looking at the tools that you use. It's looking at how you, how you set up your day, how do you, how do you hire people? What kind of enablement folks are you looking for now? Right. I mean, it's, it's all of that and it's all tied together with that. Um, and I think the, the last thing that I like to leave people with is for me, it's really, really important. That, and this ties in with gravitas, and it ties in with point of view and it ties in with experience, is that we have critical conversations versus artificial harmony.

Speaker C: You don't need, yes men, you need folks and women, you need people who are not afraid to go. I'm confident I've got a seat at the table and I'm going to share my voice. That's why I'm here.

Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, and that's where the, you know, the five questions. Right. That's where that came from for me was to give anybody an enablement that I know a tool that they can use so that it's not hard for them to say no or not yet or. Right. They have a tool that everybody understands that is prescriptive, focused, and allows them to actually move a program forward or discount the program altogether.

Speaker C: So speaking of five and knowledge and all of these things you've shared with the community. I've heard rumor, we've talked about it for years. I've been encouraging you, as have many, that maybe a book's in the works. Can you give us a peek? And.

Speaker D: Yeah, I am. Um, yeah, I've been working on it for a long time. Um, I actually talked to an editor a couple months ago and, uh, he said, okay, it's, it's good. He said, you got a lot of stuff in here, though, that's kind of repeating what other people are saying. But this thing about the four pillars and the business within a business and that, you know, this. That's really cool. And I thought it is what's interesting and what I'm. What I'm finding a little bit difficult is that I can explain. I can explain what it is in 150 words, whereas a book requires me to do 15,000. And to me, where I'm struggling is I feel like I'm going to have to be too verbose in order to get something across that I see as direct. It's funny, it's the first time I said that, but I think that's where I'm struggling is that. Yeah, I can say it simply so people understand or I can be really, really, really, really, really wordy.

Speaker C: Interesting. Uh, final thought for me on that is maybe there's a spot for that in the GTMAI Academy, even if it's not AI specific. Maybe it could be a module that people could take or.

Speaker D: Well, this is. It could be that. The other thing I want to do is on my website now that I've come out of the closet and everything is out there as of Thursday.

Speaker C: Um, love it. Congrats again.

Speaker D: Right. Each of these things does have sub plots to them and I want to start writing little posts, little articles about these pieces. Right. So maybe it's not a book. Maybe it is a combination of little articles that eventually get smooshed up into an ebook. I don't know. But something along that line. But yeah, there's. I got things to say.

Speaker C: Got it. Uh, coming free to an inbox near you and.

Speaker D: Exactly.

Speaker C: LinkedIn. I love it. Siobhan, as always, you just keep giving. Just keep giving. And thank you for that, for, uh, inspiring me from the very beginning. I. I had the blessing of having dinner with you right out of the gates at one of Eli's dinners in San Antonio.

Speaker D: Oh, wow. That was a while ago.

Speaker C: Yeah, when I met everyone pretty much for the first time face to face. So you've been there from the beginning for me and for so, so many people. I will always be looking for the shoes whenever I show up as well. Well, I'll try to give you some breathing room and uh, just grateful for you, Siobhan, and on behalf of the entire community and so excited to see what keeps happening. One post, one. Uh, next big step. One. And I can't wait to hear some of your AI hints and tips and tricks and share that with the audience. Any final parting words?

Speaker D: Uh, I firmly believe that the impact that we have in an organization is one of the most powerful that is there. We are truly an investment that a, ah, company must take if they are going to be successful. We've seen it where organizations have cut out their enablement folks because they only look at them as a cost center and they are paying the price now. They're paying the price because now that the game isn't being won easily on the field they're looking for their strength and conditioning coaches and they ain't there.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: And so we need to as individuals in our roles believe the impact that we can have. I know we can. You know we can and we need to believe it. Stand when our superhero poses and go you know what we're doing.

Speaker C: You must have us walk in confidence and demand gravitas. I love it. Thank you so much for your time for everything for everyone and we'll definitely be in touch. See see you soon in the shoes.

Speaker D: Thanks Eric.

Speaker B: Thanks for joining us. To become an insider and amplify your journey, please make sure you've subscribed to our show.

Speaker C: You can do so@overstratesales.com podcast.