How the CEO of Richer Sounds, Julie Abraham, is Shaping the Future of Ethical Business Practices

Hello and welcome to the CEO Activist Podcast . This is the show where I speak with the most inspirational and forward-thinking chief executives and talk about why diversity is truly a commercial lever for economic growth and prosperity and why it is fundamentally the right thing to do . I'm joined today by someone who I've been stalking a little bit for the last couple of months . Her name is Julie Abraham , and she has some fantastic experience , starting as IT sales and purchasing administrator for the likes of IBM and working her way right up to the top now as chief executive of Richer Sounds , a brand that we know and love .

Welcome to the show , julie . It is wonderful to have you here . Thank you , and I haven't felt stalked for the last few months . A wrath by me .

I really appreciate the time because I know not only as a female chief executive do you get requests a lot , but equally you've got a really interesting story , obviously starting off in sales admin and working your way up to the top . Tell us a little bit about how that journey came to be and how you found your way into the position that you're in right now . I'll be perfectly honest , it wasn't planned . So I mean I left school without any A-levels .

I had no A-levels , so I didn't do the university route . I was a holiday rep on campsites in France , I've sold timeshare in Lanzarote , I've worked and run a bar and I've waitressed In fact I was a waitress in a cocktail bar back in the eighties . So , and then gradually I started getting a proper job , as my dad would call it , and worked in various office environments . And I think the basis was I'm quite lazy and I'm quite interfering , so if I think something could be done more quickly and more efficiently , I'm happy to interfere because I think I'm helping .

And then you sort of gradually build from there and I moved from IBM in London back in gosh the 80s . I was offered a job in Bahrain and I spent two years there in the golf business machines , which was the IBM in the Middle East . And then I came back . I came home on holiday , just for a break to see my parents , and met up with a friend who was working at Richard Sounds as the marketing director and , funny enough , I helped her write her CV for the job here and she said oh , we've got a job going , come and say hello , come and meet some people .

I popped in and the next thing I was flying back to Bahrain to resign , pack up and move back to this country and I just thought , oh , it's a bit of a job that will keep me going until I decide what I really want to do when I grow up and I was about 26 by that stage . And yeah , I've been here it's my 30th anniversary in November this year and I started in purchasing and gradually moved into stock control . I've always had a foot in the IT camp because of my background in IBM , and then I became stock control director IT director and Julian one day said to me it was the second day of the January sale and said would you like to be my successor ?

And I laughed because I thought he was a bit deluded at the time , but he mentored me . Must be 13 years now , became CEO in 2016, . I think it was All the time still running various departments and getting involved in the rest of the business and yeah . So that's kind of a very brief summary of what feels like a very long career at this moment not just the 30 years , but obviously since leaving school , but just shows with the right attitude and a lot of luck .

I mean it's being in the right place at the right time as well has helped . And also I mean it's being in the right place at the right time as well has helped . And also I mean Julian's quite astute and he obviously spotted something and an ability that I possibly didn't even know I had at the time . So yeah , it's been a bit of a roller coaster really , but it's been thoroughly enjoyable .

Well , huge congratulations in order . Three decades that is incredible . And when you talk about the fact that this was not necessarily planned , it almost happened with the people that you met along the way . And you then now obviously have the trustee position as well for the anti-social behaviour .

Yes , I think it's wonderful lunch last year , um that's been . That's been quite a journey and now they're very , a very small , small charity , but with a huge voice in the anti-social behavior space . Um , they've done a lot of exciting work and it's been and it's nice to do something outside the day job . It's sometimes it's nice to remind you , remind yourself , that there's you know , there are other things outside your .

You know your little work bubble , um , but now I've enjoyed it's sad a lot of the stuff that we read about , but , um , I've really enjoyed being part of that journey well , it's a brilliant journey of upward social mobility , um , from starting literally in , you know , what people may describe as a really lowly role , but then ultimately climbing the ladder over the years through what sounds like a lot of hard work and tenacity , rather . Yeah , very much so . Social mobility is something very close to our hearts .

Here at Richer Sounds , we recruit from within to senior positions or , in fact , fact , any position in the office . It will always be advertised within the business first . So we've had , as I started , as you said , in the purchasing administration um , we've got people from the warehouse , from warehousing , into it , people from service have moved into it . Um , people from the stores have moved into marketing .

Our entire purchasing department , bar one , I think , or maybe two , started within our stores , and one of the things that Julian's always lived by and I follow a lot of his beliefs is that you can recruit for attitude and train for skills , and that's something I think is very valuable . Don't always need the , the letters after the name , or the , or large and large piles of certificates sometimes . You just need some common sense and a bit of a can-do attitude it sounds really simple , but it is so very true .

I remember a mentor of mine once said there's three types of people . I'd love to know your perception on this . So there's three types of people in any workforce . The first type of person you absolutely want and they've got the right attitude and they've got a skill , huge tick .

Second type of person they have a great attitude , but they don't have the skills . They're all so fantastic , but the third is a type of individual that you don't want in any organization . You have to cut them out really quickly and I was like , oh my goodness , this sounds brutal . He said this person has the skill , but they don't have the will and they don't have the attitude .

The first two give me that kind of talent any day . Absolutely . I 100% agree with that . And those people could be different in any business .

You've got to find an interest . You've got to spark an interest within the business for people to want to work along with you , and it's different . We're a small business , so people are multitasking . So just because you're in accounts doesn't mean to say you're not involved in some of the other areas of the business .

I mean a CEO . The job description is kind of everything is your business and we actively encourage people to get involved in other areas . We want to give everybody a voice in how the company is run . We're employee-owned and have been since 2019 .

And part of being employee-owned , you have to have a colleague voice . We've always been really good at that . We've always had our suggestion scheme . We've got the colleague council .

Now I've now got more . I have to report into the colleague council . I have to report into the trustee directors for the Employee Ownership Trust Plus . I report into the chairman as well .

So I've got a lot of headmasters nowadays . But it's what makes it fun . It keeps you on your toes . I think it helps keep you young as well .

But we also need to try and make it enjoyable . It can't just be hard slog . It's fascinating . Actually , I'd love to dive into talking more about the structure and this being employee-owned , because it's a fascinating and unusual business with the culture .

I mean , when the team and I walked in , we straight away honestly not just saying this felt like it was a real kind of family feel . Your lovely lady on reception has been here nearly 30 years . It is very proudly , I think you said , 60% employee-owned , but then also started by an entrepreneur who , as we know , sometimes it's hard for entrepreneurs to step away from the day-to-day , but this has worked really well and it has kind of transcended culturally throughout the roots and the branches as the business has developed over the years .

So talk to us a little bit more about this culture , because I think in the modern world that we live in , it is so key for us always to be looking at others , other organizations , and what we can learn from them , to continue moving the dial in terms of leading practice . I mean a lot of this comes from Julian . I mean he started the business back in 1978 , so we've been going a long time before it went into employee ownership . But it's always been run in a very similar way .

The colleagues are at the focus of everything . It's people before profit . And you know , back in the I think it was early 80s , we bought our first holiday home , which is one of the colleague benefits , and the banks thought Julian was mad . You know why waste your money on something you don't need to do ?

And his point has always been that's exactly why we need to do it . It's because we don't need to and it's those added little extras . And we have our annual outing to . Once you've done five years of service , we'll go away for two nights together .

Brighton's been the most popular trips recently and everybody knows everybody . And if you don't , you kind of do by the end of the two days . And there's an open door policy . Obviously , particularly with email , you're available 24-7 , but you're actively encouraged to contact anyone .

You don't just have to speak to your manager in a store or department . People can pick the phone up . Any colleague can pick the phone up and ring me or email Julian . We're all available .

And if you have an idea or thought , don't just sit on it and wait till you end up in the right department . Just pick up the phone , tell us about it . We've got an award winning suggestion scheme Every colleague , it's available to every colleague . So the suggestion scheme I think the minimum you get paid for suggestion , even if it's not used , is five pounds up to I think it's twenty five pounds , it's £25 .

And the thrill people get from seeing something they've suggested whether it's a pets at work scheme or some massive idea that saved us hundreds or thousands of pounds . It's a real buzz for colleagues to see that it's their ideas and their voice that gets listened to and is implemented . And it doesn't take long . It's not like you put it in today and maybe this time next year someone might have done something .

We have a weekly review panel . Colleagues sit on it and listen and go through all the suggestions and they help decide . So I don't get a say in it . By the time it comes to me , they think it's a good idea .

Or by the time it goes to the head of department , they're convinced it's a good idea . So you have to be really on it you really got to work at . Actually , I really don't think this is going to work . Or you think I'm paid ?

I'm paid to do this job . Why didn't I think of that , which is really embarrassing , but it's um , it's kind of who we are , so everybody's got a voice . As much as there is a hierarchy and and a structure , everybody's included . So when we do , when we do make a decision , we want to take everybody with us and not be constantly thinking then this isn't going to be popular .

We want to do things that are good for everybody . It sounds very much like servant led leadership . The employees tell you what to do and how to run the show . Well , I think a lot of companies make the mistake is they make a decision , they roll out the decision and then they face the backlash .

They roll out the decision and then they face the backlash . We try very hard to suggest the decision that we would like to make and ask for feedback first so we can tweak it . So in the end , nine times out of ten , we can roll out something that everybody is already on board with and that's far less time consuming and has far less of an effect on morale , which we also measure weekly . And if morale is low in any one area or one person , there's lots of people around to help and find out what the problem is .

So we can fix it , whether it's personal or work related . But it's far more efficient to work like that . You don't want to constantly be doing U-turns . It's something our government may be able to think about occasionally .

You don't want to constantly be doing U-turns , something our government may be able to think about occasionally . You don't want to be U-turning because it looks like you don't know what you're talking about and don't know what you're doing . Yes , we make mistakes , but on the whole , most of the time , if it's well thought out and well explained . People should be at least prepared to be prepared to give it a try be prepared to give it a try .

It's some seriously useful tips that many can learn from when it comes to employee voice and , like you say , when you have the retention rates that you do . That , I have to say , is relatively rare to a certain extent , given the generations that we have in the workplace right now , particularly in retail , as well . No , I mean , and it's something we're very proud of Julian taught me very early on in my career that if you last the first six months you'll leave in a box , which is , he says , we're a bit like the mafia , but I'm not sure whether that's right or not .

But yeah , we've certainly got a lot of colleagues that have had long careers with us . Our chairman celebrated 40 , david Robinson , he celebrated 40 years in the business last year . I'm 30 years this year , so it's and every store has got total length of service . They've got their .

They've got it on their own badges , but there's a plaque on the wall and you go to some stores and find they've got over 100 years of service between them . So you know that experience and that knowledge is is valuable to any business which leads me nicely into one of your passion points around future generations of leaders and future talent . Ultimately , because you take people into head office often from the stores , but equally , there is a real focus now moving forwards on how to really grow and nurture that future talent .

Talk to us a little bit about that . Yeah , as I said , julian . Julian has been very , very uh focused on his uh , his succession plans , because he hasn't got , he hasn't got a family to leave it to . So we are his children , if you like , and he's left it to the colleagues .

But my passion now is I'm reaching a certain age where retirement may be in the not too distant future , as is our chairman , and we're both very passionate about making sure that the longevity of the business is assured . So the last few years since the longevity of the business is assured , so the last few years since funny enough , since COVID it started with COVID a few senior directors have left the business . So we've built a new , younger model , if you like . So I've been mentoring them and working with the younger board for the last three or four years now and that's been refined over time .

And the next step of that is we're actually instigating a future leaders program which we'll be announcing to the colleagues officially in May . They've heard it's coming , but we just want to put the full plan together and that's almost for the generation , maybe one or two generations behind the level behind me , if you like , maybe one or two generations behind the level behind me , if you like . So anything I can do now to strengthen the business for future development . I will do while I'm still here .

I have if anybody's listening from Richesons . I've got absolutely no plans of leaving in the immediate future . To be clear , don't panic anymore . But when you're late 50s , you have to think of these things .

You can't . It's not just a case of I give my notice in and walk away in four weeks time , and that's the same with anybody in my position in any company . Um , you know , and particularly when it's employee owned and you know we like to hire from within . So there's a there's a whole area of different parts of the business that sort of need to be tied together and we need to be we're very open with everything but more training and more knowledge .

We can share the knowledge that we have , particularly at senior director level . We need to share that with more and more people and they'll understand the business better and the business will be better for it , regardless of whether who becomes a future leader . So yeah , and that's quite an exciting point of part of the job at the moment which I'm thoroughly enjoying . It's really exciting .

I mean , what an opportunity . It's almost going into the next phase of growth , the next piece of legacy for you and others to be able to impart into the business . And , as you say , a lot of that is the shared knowledge , the shared wisdom , the leading practice . But also then bringing that new , diverse , innovative slant to things and having that diversity within the team but also I know you've mentioned proudly in the customer base , is absolutely key to business success .

Absolutely , and we know our customers love this . The feedback when the employee ownership was announced or Julian announced it at our managers conference , so they were all live in May 2019 . And the feedback we had from customers , because there was quite a big story in the press for several months actually , and the feedback we had from customers was phenomenal , and I think they love a good business story . Nowadays , there's so much talk about the large corporations that don't pay tax and don't treat their colleagues well and bad working conditions .

You hear all the bad news stories . It's something our press are very good at getting out but you don't often hear the good stories and so for something like this , I think the world was waiting for the story of our employee ownership at the time and you know it's a big legacy and you want to carry it on . I don't want . There's no way this can fail .

It's not . We can't allow it to fail because it's got ramifications for other businesses and for many years to come . So you know it's important . Picking up on a point that you made there , actually about the news I've often mused on .

Wouldn't it be great if we had a good news channel , because you do tend to see more negativity than you do positivity , but there is such an opportunity for business to be this force for good . And now you mentioned Julian . Has the next book coming out ? Maybe that comes into um , the next phase is for you .

But the ethical capitalist , I think it was called . That's right his first book . I think , really , I think that was his third or fourth actually . Oh gosh , his writing is actually very good , it's very easy to read , but the Ethical Capitalist that came off the back of it was around the time he launched the Good Business Charter and they have 10 very simple components to follow to be a good business .

It's very easy to follow and that's grown rapidly since launch . But just what you would think was common sense but paying the real living wage as a minimum , paying the fair tax in the UK , treating your colleagues well , there's an element of sustainability and environmental help . So there's lots of elements to it , but they all seem like they seem so obvious but so many people aren't following them . They might follow one or two and make a big noise about those , but that's sort of hiding the others under a carpet .

And this is about everybody doing good . And you're right , business can be a force for good if they operate within some quite simple parameters . Really . It's a really good point because ultimately it's going beyond that performative .

I've yet to meet a CEO or senior exec that says you know what ? I don't think that good business or diversity is a good idea . Yet actually it is about the actions beyond the words . And you know , as you say , they may sound like simple things , but actually doing them we often call them inclusion nudges is keeping the momentum on to keep moving is actually what is key , and that is exactly what you've done with the business charter .

And also , you know even the . I think you abolished the zero hours contracts as well . Yeah , well , we , to be honest , we I don't ever remember us having zero hours contracts , but that was another . That was another thing that Julian Julian set up is a zero hours justice campaign .

But you know , when you read about some of the companies that use this and some big household names in there , it's horrific because you could be on the way to work and then told you haven't got a shift that day , but you've already paid for your childcare and you're on the bus or train or whatever on the way to work , so you're already paying for your transport and then you've got no money coming in . So I don't understand why the government have been very slow to react on that .

I don't understand why they haven't been I don't know what the word is nowadays outlawed abolished . It sounds a bit old-fashioned , but I don't understand why they're allowed to do that . So , yeah , again , some of this seems like a common sense approach to a way to treat people and to do business , but it's amazing how little common sense there is out there . So I'm sorry .

Just to go back on the point you mentioned earlier , yes , I think there would be a great . I think it's a great idea to have a good news channel , because I do have to say I and I think it's a british thing , because you don't get the same thing in the states . They do find a good in the states . The States you tend to .

Everything is like they celebrate everything win , lose , draw , whatever Whereas here it's like as expected , if you lose in a World Cup , you've got all the way to the World Cup finals and you lose , it's like the biggest disaster ever . You still got to the final . You're second best . That's still better than being at the bottom .

I do love British culture . I married an American . But the difference , well , the similarities . I suppose you see them both as actually being really similar .

You know same language etc . But actually culturally super different . It's the um , it's the kind of the . I love British culture .

Obviously I'm British , but it's the damned if you do and the damned if you don't situation perfect situation , even they get to the second yeah , in the finals you almost sort of set yourself up to fail , when actually trying is the success failure . You should just learn from your failure . Failure , I mean I've had . There's been many disasters throughout my career .

But the point is , as long as you learn from them and put things in process , you don't fail the same way twice , then it's still a success . You learn from your mistakes and move on . You take all that knowledge with you and I think we should be a little bit more celebratory of the people that have tried , even if they haven't quite got to the pinnacle of whatever they're attempting to do absolutely , because the tenacity to dust yourself off and get back on the horse again is something to be celebrated , and I mean the Americans are pretty good at doing that .

I have to say they do love rags rags to riches story , don't they , yeah , and they'll fall off and pretend they meant to do it . Yeah , we'll fall off and think , well , we expected that to happen . And I think that's the tenacity of a good leader . If you fail , if something goes wrong , you have to stand up and carry on .

And if you're running a business , your colleagues want to see you do that . They don't want you to . You know running into a dark corner and closing down and say that's it , that's me done . You know dark and corner and closing down and say that's it , that's me done .

If you have a bad day , week , whatever , they want to see you carry on and that's where you can inspire and take them with you on the journey , in my opinion . I might be wrong , but that's my opinion . And it's fascinating to see the evolution , almost , of leadership and CEO activism , which takes us nicely into what CEO activism means to you . But my observations and I'd love to know your take here is that this hierarchical kind of white ivory towered leadership of yesteryear is starting to become dismantled , not only because the future generations care about businesses with purpose , care about businesses who genuinely are practicing what they preach , etc .

But because times are really changing and the vulnerability to a certain extent , honesty , being candid as you are being is really important and people aren't perfect , and so having the human piece at the heart of this is really quite key . Yeah , I agree , and it's a difficult one to quantify , I think , because it means something different to so many people . But I do feel in a position such as mine is you've got a voice and you shouldn't be afraid to use it . Now I shied away from that sort of thing for years .

I'll get on and do my job , and within the business I'll be as loud as I like , but I didn't do it much outside of the business but actually I thought I don't think that's right . So when I get the opportunity and it's a subject that I'm passionate about , then I'm happy to speak up and talk and get involved in . I'll get involved in areas that I'm interested in , and that's not to say I'm disinterested in everything else . But there are so many things wrong in the world you can't fight on every front , so you know I stick to the ones that mean something to me and the business as well , as much as possible .

And before you talk to us about what this does mean to you . We chose the word activism because it is quite a controversial word and has started to mean different things to different people over the years . Yeah , I must admit , I think one of the things that put me off doing this podcast in the first place when you first contacted me , was that was the word activism , because I think a lot of people , um , you say activist and you think of people sort of you know blocking the m25 , lying there on a Sunday morning and you're stuck in the traffic or you know , hanging from the gantries on on motorways .

So I had to , I had to really think about what , what it really meant , and I think it's about , as I said , it's it's using my voice in an appropriate way , whether it's adding pressure to an area , whether it's getting involved . Because of my experience , to add to a subject , I can say recently I've signed a letter and a plan that the BRC have got with abusive retail staff . Now it's not something luckily our colleagues have suffered much but it is a big problem in the UK and it's been far worse since the rate lifting of lockdown .

I've also been involved recently with , again via the BRC . Also been involved recently with , again through via the brc , but I'm getting involved in it's a new proposals for the uh electronic waste , a disposal of electronic waste , um , and through that I've spent some time with guys from defra to explain our thoughts and processes . So , and that's something I'd have probably shied away from in the past , because government departments all sound very scary , but actually I think it's important .

You know , if you want to , if you , if you're gonna , if a proposal is going to hit you somewhere , you want to , if you've got the chance to have a voice and to shape that sort of thing , then and it's important , and just because our colleagues don't currently suffer any abuse in the same way that other other stores have have had um I , I should add my voice to that as well , because it is wrong whether they work for us or not , and and you know , if it's happening in one store it may happen with us eventually .

So I should get involved . So there's , so you can . You can think of activism . It's not .

It's actually about getting involved and and adding your experience and voice to to areas concern you or involve you , and sometimes it might not be something you're worried about at that time , but if others are and if you've got experience and you can add your weight to that argument , then I think you should do so . It's so spot on how you've articulated that and what you're essentially saying is that business collectively has this collective shared voice , collective accountability and a transformative power to be able to drive change and impact better policies , procedures um , absolutely , and with government , and vice versa .

There's a lot that can be learned from businesses are doing well and helping and we're all much stronger together . So if we use our collective power and voice to shape good business , then that's surely a good use of our time and effort , and we know from experience that our customers are really keen on that . We see the response when we say , oh , we've been accredited by the Living Wage Foundation again or we've got our fair tax mark again . We get as much feedback on our social media from things that are not strictly business related .

We get far more feedback than some of our deals , and that's not . Our deals are fantastic , but it just shows the sort of things that are engaging customers' interest . And I think that's something more business should be . They need to wake up to , so issues beyond business are good for business and , ultimately , the work that you're doing and you yourself as well , on a personal note is really helping to , to drive and champion change , which I think is fantastic .

Yeah , I hope so , otherwise there's what's the point of us all being here if we can't do some good or do something useful ? and just picking up one of the other points you mentioned around how ? I'll just say that's the most terrified thing . You say oh , I can't remember what I've mentioned , but sorry .

I love how candid you are , though . I mean , you're so real when you're speaking to you and actually that's certainly what I would want to follow as a leader and a CEO is someone who is not trying to be the perfect all things to everyone . It's actually just being their . It sounds twee , but their authentic self .

But picking up on something that you had said there around diversity being a commercial lever , ie helping , helping , helping the profit line as well , even though we're putting purpose beforehand . Do you believe that diversity is a commercial lever for economic growth and prosperity ? And for those businesses who maybe don't , what would you say to them ? try .

If I think diversity is important to the business and there's so many elements to a diverse business but your business has to reflect the people that you are there to serve and , ultimately , your customers . So if you're not going to be diverse and inclusive , then you are going to lose the interest of the potential customers . And I think that's it in a nutshell and it's something we're all going to strive for , and it's not easy . There's certain areas I'm more passionate about than others , but there's so many areas to be passionate about .

I know there's other people in the business that will be more interested in some of the sustainability . That's not to say I'm not interested , but I think I said to you earlier , my passions lie in the social area of the business and the colleagues and the well-being and the inclusivity of the workplace . So , but I'm still going to sign off solar panels on the warehouse roof and I'm still very proud of our sort of repair , recycle , resell part of the business , and I'm also very interested in all the different packaging we're trying out to see which is green .

So there's so many areas to look at , but sometimes you have to find your passion and put more effort in one place rather than another . But no , someone else is looking after that . No area is untouched . But you can't diversify yourself too much .

Sometimes you have to have a bit of focus and as one area improves or is as best it can be , you can move on to something else Totally agree , we often say you can't eat the whole elephant at once . You have to take it in bite-sized pieces with the focus that you've had . I mean , you've already mentioned , you know social mobility , employee welfare , human rights , the E from ESG , as well as the . You know the social aspects .

Don't think you're doing bad at all , julie , thank you . Don't think you're doing bad at all , julie , thank you . On to some easier questions . Before we wrap up , I would love to kind of go into a little lightning round , if I may , and kind of take you back now in time , perhaps to a couple of decades ago , or three decades ago , in fact , to the young Julie , or the very young Julie .

Is there any advice that you might give to your younger self who's kind of starting out on that career ladder , or anyone else who's listening to this thinking ? I'd love to be there , but I just I don't know how I think the biggest thing is to have you . I think we should all learn to have more . I know it's easy to say , but I wish I'd had more confidence , because I think , and I I'd say this , but I wish I'd had more confidence because I think , and I'd say this to everybody , I think you need more confidence in yourself , because I think we're all better than we think we are , or we're better than we think we can be .

And if your aspiration , if you're young now , and your aspiration is to be CEO , don't think about being CEO , think about each little step that you could take and and don't be , don't be afraid to get involved . As I say , I'm lazy and interfering , that's how I got here , just because I want to see everything done quickly and efficiently , because I'd like everybody to work shorter , shorter hours , but you know , smartly , um , so , yeah , I wished I'd been more confident when I was younger .

Um , I knew I was I . My capabilities were far greater than than I'd realized at the time , but you build it as you , as you get older , with experience and you mentioned during the podcast how important mentors had been to you Julian himself and and perhaps others along the way , who's really stood out to you or maybe shone a light in dark places ? Because it's it's . Sometimes it's a lonely place when you're in a role as CEO or climbing your way up that career ladder .

I think there's . Firstly , there's my parents . They gave me a huge grounding for hard work . My dad was a police officer and he worked his way through the ranks and I watched .

You know , I saw that as a child and they taught me the value of money , which I think is missing a lot nowadays . So you know , you appreciate , I appreciate everything I've earned , not just personally but also as a business , and you , you know you have to look after every penny , particularly nowadays , in this current crisis . Julian would be my next one . I'm so lucky because he sort of picked me up .

I've been around for so long and I've worked so closely with him and he's mentored me . For gosh , it must have been about 13 years . I feel a bit sorry for the younger generation because they won't get as long as that from him , and he's still mentoring people now , which is great for the business . We'll keep him around as long as he wants to stay , but his entrepreneurship and his speed at decision-making I mean , even now it's difficult to keep up with him and I've been doing it for a long time but he taught me the importance of the detail and things I was probably a little bit slapdash at when I first started and also our chairman , david Robinson .

I mean , we work really well together and have done for 30 years , but it's important to have someone at a similar level in your career to you to be able to bounce ideas off and sometimes just to make that ranting phone call because you can't rant down . You can rant along or up , and it's not because there's anything wrong , but sometimes you're right , it is lonely . You need a sounding block and to have people around you that you can trust and have that sort of relationship with it's really important .

I can , I know I can pick up the phone to julian or david and and I've got some fantastic friends I've known since I was at school and they keep me grounded . But you know you , you do need to support network . It's not just you're not an island , you can't , it can't , it's not just you , and you need to build those relationships . They're important .

So , network , knowledge , the trust , all of these things essential to to success . Yeah , which leads me to the final question Are there any secrets to success or any final words of wisdom that you would want to impart to anyone who is listening ? words of wisdom that you would want to impart to anyone who is listening . I think the biggest thing for me is you watch these what's they called back to the floor programs and the boss turns up .

No one knows who they are . And I think the biggest thing is visibility and I think I'd like to be known for someone that will . In a time of crisis , I can roll my sleeves and I'll get stuck in so I can go and work in the warehouse or help in purchasing or even if it's just soothe trouble waters in marketing , whatever it is . I like to think people will know they could trust me to get involved and help .

And I think the visibility everybody in the business , if I walked into a room or a department , would know who I am . And I don't mean that in a guess who I am type of way . I mean it's just because the voices , the faces out there . You know we mix at the five-year outing .

You know I visit the stores , I visit the departments . I'd hate to turn up if I worked in a company and nobody recognized me and I'm the one that's making decisions on their , you know the future of the business . So , yeah , I , it's visibility and and the ability to roll your sleeves up and get stuck in and not just sit in some fancy corner office um barking out orders . Julie , from the opportunity to get to know you and interview you on this podcast , I can say with conviction you are the antithesis of of someone from that old school glass corner office .

I can see how much you enjoy getting out and seeing everyone and how important it is to leave a really positive , sustainable legacy within the business , and so thank you ever so much for joining me on the podcast . I think we've covered huge grounds , from social mobility to antisocial behaviour , to shared knowledge , to mentoring , to diversity and to real models as well as role models , and it is because of leaders and CEOs like you that we can continue doing what we are doing .

So thank you very , very much . Thank you , it's a pleasure .