Building a 150-Year Old Start Up

Speaker A: Today's episode is brought to you by Force Brands, the only people strategy partner built exclusively for consumer brands. Whether you're preparing for rapid growth, navigating a leadership transition, raising capital, or planning for an exit, the right team can make all the difference. For more than 20 years, Force Brands has helped founders, CEOs, investors, and leadership teams build organizations that are ready for what's next. From executive search, direct hire recruiting, and people strategy advisory services to fractional or interim leadership and contract staffing, Force Brands helps consumer brands find the best people aligned with their business strategy. Learn more@ForceBrands.com. I'm Allyson Cain and welcome to in the Sauce, a podcast about building consumer brands from the ground up. I love doing this show because I get to interview everyone from production gurus to marketing and social media mavens, anyone who can guide me on this crazy journey. This is the story of building Haven's kitchen sauces, but it's also the story of every growing brand, because we're all in the sauce.

Speaker B: Today I'm talking with Amy Guittard, Chief Marketing Officer of Guittard Chocolate Company. Founded in San Francisco in 1868, Guittard is the oldest continuously family owned chocolate company in the United States. Five generations later, it occupies a unique position. A heritage brand, an ingredient business, and a company operating at the intersection of agriculture, manufacturing and consumer products. Welcome, Amy.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: So before we even get into it, I was having a conversation with someone today about the realities and the struggles of, uh, uh, cpg and, and basically she was saying, you know, if you have some other revenue stream, if you have some other channel or some other business, if you're a co packer, let's say, with a brand, or I brought you guys up, or if you're an ingredient company that, you know has a brand is like one part of it. And she said, well, but their chocolate chips have been around for like, I don't know, 100 years or something. And I was like, in the grocery store? And she said, yes. Now, as far as I understand, you have not had a consumer facing business for 100 years. You've had a manufacturing business that was B2B and sold ingredients to other companies. But when did the, when was the first sort of grocery store I can buy Guittard chocolate chunks as a consumer at the store available?

Speaker C: It's a great question. So I think to answer it, we kind of have to take a step back and talk about the history of Guittard. So, um, as you mentioned, we were founded in 1868. My great, great grandfather came to San Francisco looking for gold. And his uncle had a chocolate factory in France. And he brought chocolate with him to trade for mining supplies. And when he got here, he realized that the merchants were the ones who were faring better than the gold miners. He went back to France, learned how to make chocolate, um, and came, uh, back to San Francisco with the chocolate making equipment and set up shop right along the Embarcadero, which is, if you're, uh, familiar with San Francisco, it's right along the piers. Um, and so all of the raw materials that were coming in were really, uh, accessible for not only Guittard, but other brands that were starting off in the city. So Ghirardelli, um, Hills Brothers Coffee, Folgers Coffee. So there's stories of sort of the snow of coffee and cocoa roasting, um, sort of through the streets of San

Speaker B: Francisco for the people who came m. To find gold.

Speaker C: Correct. And so if you can kind of place yourself at that period of time, this sort of B2B. B2C. I haven't done a deep depth study on it, but that delineation, I would go as far as to say, didn't really exist back then. Right. So there were people who were making things, but there was not a lot of. There were grocery stores, but provisions. There was sort of not a lot of differences between the two. And so, you know, our first product was a, um. Basically our Grand Cacao, which is a cocoa powder that we make for, um, consumers. We also make it for B2B. Um, and so it is a cocoa powder, ground, um, you know, cocoa powder, but also has liquor in it, um, and sugar. And so that was. It was called sweet ground Cocoa. It was one of our first products. You look at some of our old advertising. Um, you know, chocolate was such a staple ingredient for a lot of people. It was a breakfast drink. Um, and so that was the first product that we made argue, you could argue whether it was for consumer or for B2B. Um, but you know, chocolate is a grinding business. We can get into this. You basically, um, over a course of crafting the end product, you take the nibs and um, you mill them, you refine them, you conch them. And sort of over the course of making chocolate, you're grinding, for lack of a better term. And so back then, companies couldn't subsist on just making one ingredient. And so we made lots of different things. We did coffees, teas, spices and chocolate. And so, I mean, your friend is not incorrect to say that we Had a product, um, a uh, consumer facing product and brand for many, many years. I think the landscape of grocery and consumer and quote CPG has changed as we can all attest. Um, even you know, within the last 10 years it's changed. And so we have always prided ourselves on having a product um, for consumers. I think the baking chip aisle, um, you know, if we want to speak more in terms of like modern timeline, I would say that we entered that around the 70s, um, 1970s I think, you know there was ah, an expansion of products that we offered, um, you know, the first milk chocolate chip. Um, I think we, if you look at this, our set of products for the consumers, it's sort of a snapshot of the products that we make on the B2B side of our business. 80% of our business is B2B. So a very small portion of our business is for consumers and we offer baking chips in a wide variety of percentages. We can get into all this later but um, different form factors and the idea again is to um, the rise of home baking and desires for consumers to really learn and educate themselves on home baking, um, allows us the opportunity to come up with a product mix that suits the needs of the modern consumer. So you can kind of look at it in different snapshots I guess you could say.

Speaker B: Uh, right.

Speaker C: But yes, we've had a brand for. That's a very long way of saying we've had a consumer facing brand arguably since the, you know, since our founding in 1868.

Speaker B: Right. So we were both right in a way. You're both right. Okay, I'm going to actually email her and amend it. Um, okay. And so backing up a little bit, you know, I don't get too into the agricultural stuff on this show, although people have heard me sort of wax poetic about dairy farmers and how we need to connect our consumption patterns to like understanding how like farming works. Um, but that's not the point of the show and I don't think people are really listening to me for that. But I am interested and I think it's worth just talking a little bit about chocolate. Um, and you and I nerd out a little bit about this because it is agricultural. It is about food ways and labor practices and the history of humanity in a way follows this incredible story of this thing that we ingest. And I'd love to just a, uh, really quick from pod to chip. If you were making a video on YouTube, it would start with the pod. I'm sure you've made this video. But Tell us just a little bit about the process and then where does Guittard come in?

Speaker C: Yeah, um, it's a great question. I think it is really important we make an ingredient. And so our supply chain obviously is crucial and core like many businesses to what we do. Our ingredient deck is so simple. We just make chocolate. Um, we have cocoa beans, um, sugar, dairy if we're making a milk chocolate, um, and vanilla if we're adding vanilla. So it's very, very simple. Um, and we source cocoa from all over the world. Um, we'll just focus on cocoa since you asked about it, not go into the other ingredients. Um, cocoa grows more or less 10 to 15 degrees either side of the equator, um, maybe 20 degrees. Hawaii is sort of the northernmost region where cocoa grows. It's called the Cocoa Belt. Um, really nice, fun term. And we source cocoa from everywhere. 70 um, percent of the world's cocoa comes from West Africa. That's oftentimes defined as uh, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Cameroon, Nigeria. Um, and you know I think that's an important thing, thing to consider given some of what's happened recently with the cocoa market, at least last year. M. But you know I think that um, you know for us sourcing from around the world really allows for us to celebrate the nuances and diversity of flavor. You know cocoa Oftentimes you hear people talking about terroir and how important the terroir is. But it's also um, another piece of it is genetics. And with a lot of um, the challenges that the cocoa market has faced, you have research groups, um, or research institutes rather that are associated with um, uh, origin governments. So there's the COCA Research Institute of Ghana for instance. They're doing a tremendous amount of work to try to do some breeding around disease resistance and productivity. We collaborate with a lot of origin uh, research groups to also um, teach them how to taste so that they're also breeding for flavor. And I think that's a really important piece so that we don't lose sort of the heritage heirloom varieties that are out there that help create the long term viability of cocoa. Um, so that's a little bit of a digression but I think it's really important for people to understand that it's not just you know, sourcing cocoa from a particular origin. It's about preserving and celebrating the origins which um, ties directly to uh, long term longevity and um, these co ops and farmer groups that are um, growing this really important crop and allowing for premiums to get back to the farmer. For instance and so all of that contributes to sort of this supply chain ecosystem. Supply chains are not linear. I think if we can start thinking of them as these ecosystems, um, that help contribute to long term sustainability of the ingredient, but also the business in general. So that's sort of where cocoa grows, if you will. It grows on a tree. You oftentimes hear people saying, well chocolate's a fruit. It is um, more or less in its most elemental form. Right. Um, it grows on a tree, it's harvested. There's two, um, primary harvest seasons, main crop and mid crop. Um, and um, the bean or the pod is harvested off the tree. Um, you crack them open, the seeds are inside. Um, the seeds are covered with a pulp. If you see, if you put the seed in your mouth you can taste sort of flavor nuances different. Um, varietals taste slightly different. The pulp is really flavorful, um, and tart. Um, they're super yummy. Um, and so the seeds are taken out with the pulp. Um, different origins do their fermentation differently. In South America you oftentimes see box fermentation, um, which is sort of A3, three boxes that are in a cascading form and the cocoa gets put in the top box, um, and then it sort of ferments on itself. You open it up, you aerate it, it goes to the next box or sort of a three step fermentation process. Um, in West Africa you oftentimes see heap fermentation. So they put the beans in a heap on a banana leaf, um, and then the pulp, um, the juices from the pulp sort of drain off. And that happens in both instances, um, in box fermentation and heap fermentation. Then the beans need to get dried. So there's a tremendous amount that happen.

Speaker B: Happens at origin and then dries.

Speaker C: And then it dries, correct? Yeah. And so much happens at origin. And all of that is developing flavor. And I think like, that is a lot of the sort of like artistry both in art. You know, I talk about chocolate making um, as an art and a science. That's something sort of a philosophical approach that we take here. Um, it also all starts at origin, right, um, with cocoa farmers, uh, who are able to ferment and dry their cocoa to develop these flavors and uh, make sure that they're ready for export. So um, they can't, you know, to eliminate mold, um, which is an off flavor. So every time we accept a bean, um, into our facility to make chocolate, we do what we call a cut test. Um, and so we take a Sampling of the beans. We put it in like a little guillotine. We do a cross section and we're able to tell a lot about the beans from that cross section. Whether they're moldy, whether they've been fermented properly, whether there's any infestation. So everything that we bring in, all of our raw materials goes through sort of a pre shipment approval process. Um, and so that has a lot to do with ensuring the quality of the beans. And so once they sort of pass that pre shipment test, we bring the beans in. I'm going to expedite through this process because this will take up the entire

Speaker B: time talking about how we make chocolate.

Speaker C: Um, so the cocoa first gets roasted. Um, it goes through our roasting.

Speaker B: So you guys roast it?

Speaker C: We roast it, yes, we roast our cocoa beans. Um, the shell gets taken off. That basically leaves you with the nib. Um, it goes through winnowing, which removes the shell. Um, the nib is essentially the essence of chocolate. I think by now most people have had a cocoa nib you can buy in the supermarket. Um, they're great for toppings, smoothies, all that kind of stuff. Um, but that's the element of chocolate, right? It's just the nib and nibs, um, are more or less 50% fat, 50% slightly solid, which is really important to keep in mind in sort of final formulation and also just to understand the science of cacao percentage. Um, I can get to that shortly. But, um, once you have the nibs, they go through milling. Um, and that's essentially when you make peanut butter from peanuts. You grind nibs, you get unsweetened chocolate, which you can also buy in the grocery store. If you're making brownies with 100% chocolate, that's just ground cocoa nibs, no sugar, no anything added to it. Um, if you're making cocoa powder, you take that unsweetened chocolate, put it in a hydraulic press and through pressure you separate out your powder and your butter. Different powders have different fat contents. You can have high fat, medium fat that just is dependent upon how much pressure is being applied to that unsweetened chocolate. That's how you get added cocoa butter that then gets added back into the process. Cocoa butter is what gets added into chocolate to sort of finesse the final viscosity, which is the fluidity of the chocolate that you're making. So it's sort of this whole integrated system, um, one could argue very closed loop, if you will, where everything's sort of used throughout the process. When you press your liquor to get powder. You've got butter that then gets added back into your chocolate to make your final formulation. If you're not making powder from that unsweetened chocolate, it then goes through mixing where you add sugar or dairy, um, goes through your refiner rolls which basically is shearing the particle s. And then you go into your conching, which is essentially where the Maillard reaction happens not to get nerdy. It's where sort of that toasting caramelization volatiles are released, um, sort of cooks in on itself and a lot of flavors developed. It then gets tempered and deposited into chips or bars or wafers. Um, and so wafers tend to have more cocoa butter. That's why they're flatter. The chocolate chip has less cocoa butter which is why it sort of stands up. And so it's sort of, that is a very simplified version of how chocolate is made. Um, but I think it kind of alludes to again sort of the art and science of what it is we do where we can't do what we do without, you know, all the work that happens before the beans even get here.

Speaker B: It also goes to sort of the advantage or the uh, importance in a way of having a company that's been doing this for a century and a half. Because my guess is that the relationships that you've built and the trust that you've built with the different suppliers and co ops and institutions around the world are probably pretty critical to your being able to do your job well and critical to them obviously to keeping the whole sort of like system working. Is that, I uh, mean, do you um, do you guys feel, I guess in general that like people understand how what you do is so critical in a way to like the infrastructure of like the entire market. Like honestly if someone came in today and they tried to rebuild that whole supply chain, there'd be no chance. I mean.

Speaker C: Yeah, ah, I mean I think it always goes back to relationships. Right? Like I always say, chocolate is a really emotional, nostalgic product for people. But I think too, you know, we are 158 year old family business and um, sort of upstream and downstream within our supply chain. Like we are a better company because of our customers, our customers make us a better company. Um, that's all about relationships. And same thing with regards to um, you know, our cocoa suppliers and where we get, where we get our cocoa from. Like all that is so crucial. And it's about trust, it's about relationships, um, and it's about um, honesty and collaboration and so you know, all that is, you know, over time and, uh, built over time, for sure.

Speaker B: Okay, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to come back and now we're going to get into some of the product stuff. So we'll be right back.

Speaker A: This episode is sponsored by Force Brands. The most successful consumer brands know that hiring isn't just about filling roles. It's about building the leadership capabilities and organizational structure needed for the next stage of growth. That's why Force Brands goes beyond recruiting their integrated people. Strategy model supports consumer brands and investors with executive search, direct hire, recruiting, fractional and interim leadership, board placement, contract staffing, and advisory services. If you're building for scale transformation or succession, visit forcebrands.com to see how they're helping consumer brands access the best people to build organizations. Ready for what's next?

Speaker B: I'm back with Amy Guittard from Guittard Chocolate. Okay, so something you said was interesting to me because you, you're. It's a. When I think about the company, it's like you've been around longer than categories have existed, right? So, like the fact that you're, it's, yes, you're 80%, you know, B2B, but you have been a consumer brand basically as well, for as long as you have. And yes, you're like, you're one of sort of like the smaller major chocolate companies, but also the largest of the specialty companies. Like, you occupy a lot of different positions. But I feel like today, the way that at least my sort of understanding of the grocery store and channel strategy and business in general, it's almost like you're supposed to pick a lane and you're supposed to be really good at that lane. And you're laughing a little bit because I have a feeling this is a discussion that you're psyched to have. So I guess, what, is there someone in charge of every different sort of thing that you're doing? Do you say, like, you know what, we're around so long, we're going to be around so much longer. Like, we're just going to do our thing and like, sell good stuff to our customers and, and not really worry about strategy. I mean, I'm sure that's not what you're doing, but you also worked at Clif Bar for quite a while, so, like, you're, you know what I'm saying? I think, and I'm curious just what your take on it is and how, how the discussions among you guys look.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think I, um, was giggling because it's, you know, strategy is a really important topic. And, um, you know, I think there are so many emerging brands these days, and, um, you know, you could do a deep dive case study on so many of them and how they're just, you know, doing exactly what you said, picking a lane and doing a great job within that lane. I do think we sit in a really. I mean, you said it eloquently. Like, we sit in this. I like this. I describe everything as a Venn diagram, so forgive me for leaning into that, but we're kind of this, this giant Venn diagram. And I think I also describe us as 150-year-old startup, and that's a little bit cliche, but I think the theme with that is we are flexible, we're nimble. And I think you could look at it in different. And this might sound naive, so bear with me, but you could look at it as different channels and muddying the waters between the different channels. But you could also look at it as kind of what you said at the end of your question, which was, we commit ourselves to quality and craft and making a really great product, and we sell an ingredient in both. You know, everything that we do. Um, it's not like we do. We don't have a different product mix for, I mean, for our consumer, um, product line. Right.

Speaker B: Like, you're not making chocolate chip cookies. That's not in your perfect.

Speaker C: In fact, sometimes we struggle with, okay, we're at a trade show, and we all know that you can taste chocolate as its own. Um, it can taste very different in application. If you taste one chocolate and make a ganache with that chocolate, the ganache, um, is gonna taste different than you just eating that chocolate. And so sometimes we go to a trade show and we're like, we want people to taste our chocolate in a chocolate chip cookie. There were times where we would, um, be sampling our chocolate in application, and people are like, oh, my God, are you coming out with a chocolate chip cookie? No, because then we' competing with our customers. Right? So, you know, I think, um, there's real value in being, um, just an ingredient supplier and bringing that brand to consumers as well as sort of the B2B side. We like to say, you've had more guitar than you realize. You know, we're hidden in so many, so many CPG products. Um, and so there are, you know, a lot of conversations internally just about innovation and new products that we're bringing to market. And I think what's driving, um, purchase decision in the consumer space. And how that information can help inform the products that we provide our B2B customers. So there's a lot of overlap. Um, and of course we talk about strategy, but I don't think we look at it myopically. We look at it as sort of like this bigger picture.

Speaker B: So if you have, let's say, I don't know how many products you have for, like, on the grocery store shelf or like in the baking aisle, but let's call it 10. And is that over or under?

Speaker C: Um, I think it's, uh, hold on. We've got, uh, three cocoa powders, three wafers, um, three baking bars. So that's nine. And then our baking chips were either at seven or eight. My team would be like m more than ten.

Speaker B: So in the teens. Okay. And those. And so. Okay, so let's say there are 15 for consumers and there are, I would imagine, multiples of that for businesses.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Things we'll never see as consumers, because why would we. And we don't need those things for baking cookies or brownies at home.

Speaker C: No, but you do need those things to enjoy the products that you enjoy. Right. Like, I think there's. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Speaker B: No, no, no.

Speaker C: There's something really beautiful about. I remember in grad school we had to do this project where we basically dissect. It was a operations project. We dissected a hard good. So like, um, a chair and pull it apart and look at sort of the sustainability of each of the components of the end product. Right. And we oftentimes say the whole is greater than the sum of the parts here. In so much that our product. I alluded to it earlier, our end product is only as good as the ingredients that we source. And that's where that sort of like exponential artistry comes into play. Like what happens at origin that is added to our product and our crafting process so that we create something that then gets handed down to a maker, a, uh, confectioner, a baker, a CPG company coman. Um, to then use that product to create this. This new thing at the end. And you've got this sort of exponential artistry and craft that comes out the other side. Right. And so I think that there's just something to keep in mind with regards to that and being, you know, understanding that this chocolate chip cookie that you're enjoying, kind of pulling the curtain back a little bit. Not to the degree of becoming obsessed with it, because then we'd all go a little bit crazy. But I think for those of us who work in the food space or any business for that matter. In the industry that you're in, you're always like pulling things apart and trying to understand what went into the thing, uh, that made it. And so, you know, I think that there is a level of, um, uh, creativity and inspiration too, that goes into sort of having visibility into the diverse array of products that we make.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, again, I was at the grocery store this weekend and I was, I was in the baking section and I was like, huh, huh, okay, so even take it out of chocolate for a second. There's like vanilla extract, vanilla paste, the vanilla beans. There's sometimes like a vanilla sort of sugar. But there's only so many slots they have for baking materials. And not that many people are making ganache. Right. Like, it's just the, the shelf space or the expectation on velocity or whatever. They have to have these things for the higher end baker who wants the paste as opposed to the extract type of analogy. But it's not as fast moving. So I guess part of the question is, do you think, I mean, uh, have you done research? What's your hunch, I guess, on how many people who go to the chocolate section, the ingredient section of the supermarket know, like you said, a lot of people don't realize just how much guitard they've eaten and how many good products have it in it. When do you see that as like a selling, uh, kind of opportunity? Like, I don't recall. I buy it because I know it, because you did an event at Havens years ago, and I've always loved the chocolate, but I wouldn't know that. It's probably in like five of the six really good bakeries that I go to. Do you ever want to make that more visible to the consumer? How would you? And on the flip side, my guess is that there are products that you're not necessarily like, gunning for everybody to know, uses your stuff. It's like any other sort of white label or, you know, food service type of ingredient. I remember talking to in the Chobani incubator. I think I told you this. Hamdi was like, there are certain things where we want it to be like, made with Chobani. And then there are other places where we're like, no, no, like, no need to tell anybody that this is Chobani. It's just a good volume driver and whatever. Like, what is the relationship that you're trying to have with the customers to show to your consumers? I guess. And how do you think about that.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question. I mean, I think for us, um, we have some customers who put on their packaging that they use guitard. Um, I think dictating or telling customers what to do with their own business. That's not what we do. Um, I think some customers are in, um, categories or segments of the market that really are receptive to that level of transparency. Even different, um, you know, uh, markets like, you know, London or New York or San Francisco, like, you look at, um, levels of sort of ingredient transparency that different, not only segments, but again, markets, um, are sharing. And I think it has to do with consumers being ready and willing and able to absorb that level of information. So I don't think that it's sort of, um, ah, ah, a general term or strategy, if you will. I think when customers are wanting to share that certain, um, items that they offer are made with our product, you know, we have some customers who put it on the pdp. Um, and, you know, I always, you know, chocolate in a, say, like a, ah, breakfast bar. Um, as vague as that, um, term is, right? Like, you could feature your oat supplier, you could feature your, um, sugar supplier, you could feature your sort of, um, inclusion supplier, right? So on your strawberry bar you talk about where your strawberries from, or in your chocolate bar, you're talking about where your chocolate comes from. That's sort of left up to that brand's decision. Right? Um, or you can lean into your claims, right? Like, um, made with organic oats or. And so that, again, I think really differs on the category, um, and also the positioning, right? Like natural specialty versus traditional grocery. All that jazz. Um, and so I think we do have customers who choose to feature the chocolate as their M product. Some of them say made with premium chocolate. Some of them say, um, made with guitard. Um, some of them use our logo. Some of them will embed it in the ingredient deck. And so I think those are all really important.

Speaker B: Um, and do you vet that? Are you. You can't use our logo if you're not.

Speaker C: Well, the primary reason why we vetted is so, um, it is not perceived as a product that we're making. Um, years ago we had like a customer put our logo on pack, and it was so prominent that we had other customers calling, thinking like, oh, my God, you're doing cookies. And we're like, we're not doing cookies.

Speaker B: Right. Everyone just thinks you're doing cookies.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, yeah, two separate examples. Two different types of cookies.

Speaker B: We are not making cookies.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. We should do that. So, you know, I think that that's the primary. Um, we love when people want to talk about using us. We take such great pride in our customers. I mentioned this earlier. Like our customers make us a better, better company. Like, we see our relationship with our customers as true partnerships. You know, we have a level of serviceability that we're really proud of. We have an amazing R and D team that um, helps with innovation projects, application challenges, um, innovating new products for customers. This is all part of what we do that goes beyond the products that we just make in our factory. If a customer comes to us and they're trying to troubleshoot a new item that they're trying to make and they can't quite get the flavor profile right, or they need a product match, we do that. And so I think anytime a customer, I see it as a sign of, um, lots of different things. But trust, right. We, um, want our customers to trust us, um, and build that long term relationship. And that's why we do what we do.

Speaker B: Um, and from your perspective on your packaging, on your sales materials, like on your collateral, do you, Sorry, I didn't read the fine print, but do you talk about how much it's used or are you just really telling the story of the chocolate and the cacao and the history of the company? Like, do you. Is it a selling point for you?

Speaker C: I guess on the consumer side of our business?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, no, I think on the consumer side of our business, our positioning and this is, I'm, um, not sharing any secrets. It's as you mentioned, it's on the

Speaker B: back of the package.

Speaker C: We are a family business that values both heritage crafting, sort of formulas, if you will, with innovation and really, I hate the word empowering, but empowering, um, or giving. Let's shift that. Giving the home baker the tools to elevate their craft. Um, and you know, we feel the same on the B2B side of our business. Like we are here as partners. Um, and you know, I think, um. Um, yeah, I mean, I think some people are only familiar with us on the consumer side of our business. And. That's Right.

Speaker B: No, they wouldn't know.

Speaker C: Okay. Yeah.

Speaker B: And so going to, in terms of just like the team that you need to have for that. So you need to have people that are selling presumably to restaurants and pastry chefs and brick and mortars. Like, and then you need to have people who are selling products to other CPG companies that are making the cookies and the breakfast bars. And then you need to have a Sales team on the CPG side of things. Is that correct?

Speaker C: I don't. This is for Armin. I don't really want to get into, like, our sales team structure, if that's okay. It's sort of like a little, um. I mean, just. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: It's a little.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: I mean, just for you to. Yeah, it's sort of okay. Yeah.

Speaker B: Get. Okay, Armin. Scratch that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: If you can.

Speaker C: Um, I'm trying to get at what your question is. Um, we have a dedicated retail and a dedicated sort of B2B team, but there's nuances there that I, um, feel could be valuable that I don't really want to get.

Speaker B: Totally. Absolutely. I think what I'm trying to get to and then maybe help me structure the question is, like, are there. Depending on what's going on. I know in Covid, the CPG side was very important. M. Are there. Is the. Is there, like. Is it hard to decide what to. What to put the focus on? Because there are all these different. It's good because there's diversified channels. But does it get ever complicated trying to figure out where to put the emphasis? Or is it just. You're used to doing it and that's.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think that we all. We're pretty lean team. We don't. You know, we are all, um, in constant sort of communication around priorities. And, um, I think that we have mastered the dance, if you will, and

Speaker B: so are you okay with me asking that question?

Speaker C: Um, yeah, that's fine.

Speaker B: Okay. All right. So, Armin, here's the question. So one of the things, again, going back to sort of like, the diversification of channels is something that I think a lot of people are thinking about. And I remember, you know, during COVID for example, the CPG line was really important because the restaurants and the pastry shops weren't quite as. You know, they just. They were suffering a lot more, and a lot of people were baking at home. So it's a good thing, and it has to be managed, I think, from just like a. Where are you putting your resources? How are you sort of like, emphasizing each different channel? How have you. How, um, do you think about that? I guess, you know, internally, for. For people that are thinking about diversifying their channels, which is net positive, probably. It's good to have. I just had Jesse and Ben's on. They sell French fries to. To fast food places. It's not as much in their purview. Like, they're really trying to build a consumer brand, and for them, you Know, I think you're just, you're building a really strong family business. It's a different sort of end goal. Um, but it can't hurt to diversify. But it can also be a drain. There's only so many hours and so many people. So I guess that's the question for you.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, you know, I think it is true. I think we are a lean team, um, and communication is such an important part of what we do here. And I think we've learned sort of how to do the dance, if you will, around priorities. And I think that for anyone looking at that, diversification is recognizing, um, sort of trade offs between, um, when you need to dial up or dial back certain, um, activities within different channels in your product mix. And so, um, you know, I think that again the way we operate is just being really tight on communication, um, and making sure that we're all sort of aligned on um, what the business needs at different times.

Speaker B: And I like what you said also because I think this is really interesting. It's not just that there are different places to sell and different channels with different customers, but they can actually inform each other. So you said something like seeing what's going on in one, maybe it goes more in the direction of the pastry chefs. Maybe, I don't know, like, maybe it's like seeing what those guys are doing with chocolate. You know, there will be an inevitable sort of trickle down to the consumer and there's like new product innovation that could come out of that potentially. And so that's. You guys are constantly probably talking about, hey, these guys thought about this. Maybe there's something there for consumer stuff.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Does it ever go the other way? Um.

Speaker C: Oh gosh, yeah. I mean like consumer preference, consumer trends, you know, I think what, um, you know, what consumers or like dietary lifestyles, if you will. You know, a couple years ago there was this push for um, you know, keto and paleo. Um, and you know, you were seeing a lot of that on shelf. That was sort of our primary impetus for creating our coconut, um, sugar sweetened product, which is a 72% cacao, um, coconut sugar sweetened product. We decided to go that route. Um, it's got a lower glycemic index, if you will. The way we formulated it at the time, um, allowed for um, ah, us to get 1 gram net carb, which was very important for the consumers then. Um, and we have since sort of tinkered with the formulation as those dietary lifestyles has sort of waned. Um, but I think that that was the impetus for us to create this coconut sugar product that is being used in all, you know, both sides of our business. And so, you know, that's one example of a consumer sort of dietary lifestyle where we figured, um, you know, that we. This product that would be on the consumer shelves could also inform some of our product offerings on the B2B side. Yeah.

Speaker B: So, uh, earlier you also said something which I love is like, you're 150-year-old startup and I don't think it's like, horny at all or whatever the word is that you use, because I think it's part of why you're still super successful. Um, I guess the question is what parts have felt startupy to you in the last couple of years and what parts have felt like, really grounded in aside, I would think, from like, the relationships and the quality and sort of like the heritage of the brand and knowing that you want to make all of your ancestors very proud of you. But is there something that I think on one hand that you feel like is, uh, accretive because you're startupy in your mindset, and then on the other hand, is there something that kind of keeps the business grounded because it has the heritage to it? And I'd love to just hear sort of both.

Speaker C: Yeah. Um, I think the. I mean, I wish there was another term term for startup because it's got such, like, associations with like, rapid innovation and like all this, like, rapid innovation and, you know, everyone's sharing a desk. Uh, that's me projecting. But, um, I think, you know, for us I'm using the term sort of startup in that we are nimble and flexible and a flat organization. Um, you know, that we have the ability to pivot and, you know, I said earlier, really respond to our customers. Um, and that I think has to do with that nimbleness and this, our dedication to sort of, um, not necessarily just taking things for granted. Um, and sort of kind of constantly assessing and making sure that we're, um, moving the business in ways that are, uh, responding to what the market needs. And I think the 150 aspect side of it, um, you know, you said aside from the quality and the heritage side, those are the things. But I think that kind of, those kind of are the things, right? Like, those are the things that ground us. It's, um, it's the consistency. It's um, again, sort of the dedication to the relationships which, um, comes with time. You can't just sort of build those. We have customers who have been customers of ours for multiple Generations. Um, and I think that is something that we, um, approach with a lot of humility. And, um, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive either. Like the 150 and the startup Y side of it. They help inform each other. And so, um, I think it is something that we talk a lot about here and sometimes giggle to each other. Um, cause we're like, oh, God, here we go again. Just, um, being the sort of the startupy side of who we are. But I think you also need to lean into both sides to gut check a bit. Right.

Speaker B: And staying nimble as a family business that has been around for as long as it has is really hard. I mean, that really is a testament to the older generations that allow the younger generations to, to take the company into the next. You know, you hear a lot about like, we're never gonna not sell and you know, glass vats or whatever it is. You know, the son is like, no, but dad, like, you hear those stories a lot and it seems like, you know, you guys have avoided that a lot.

Speaker C: Well, I think there's also, um, it's kind of circling back to something else that I said. This idea of sort of incremental degradation this oftentimes come up. This is something that applies to, you know, cocoa, um, where over time you don't realize that flavor is going away. You know, if you're breeding for disease resistance and productivity, you forget that, oh, gosh, it doesn't taste the same like it used to. That's what happened with strawberries or heirloom tomatoes. Right?

Speaker B: Or the banana.

Speaker C: Or the banana, exactly. Uh, it's the same thing with the product that you make, um, that we make. Right? Like making sure that the same product that we've had, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. That's that consistency that I mentioned. Um, that, that remains the way that it is and not sort of over time that degradation that can happen. Um, and so again, that's sort of that balance between 150. And startup is always having that heritage as a way to sort of ground your purpose. Um, and, you know, you don't need 150 years behind you to ground yourselves in purpose. I think sometimes, um, you know, with businesses there's, um. And I'm. I shouldn't be speaking in such grandiose terms, but like, you know, I. One thing that I love about, you know, business, if you will, is the ability to make an impact. If you, if you, you know, have a thoughtful supply chain and, you know, all that kind of stuff and you're Making a product that you know, can have real impact when, um, you stay true to your values. Um, and so I think that that's uh, something that I always go back to, um, when we're thinking about our own business.

Speaker B: And so to you, you worked at Cliff for quite some time and I'm curious what you took away. I mean, did you always know you were going back to Guitard, like in your brain, did you think, you know, I hear different answers with family businesses.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I'm curious.

Speaker C: I think, um, I had, I've always had a passion and a desire for food companies. And um, sort of, as I, as I mentioned earlier, sort of like the ability, if you, if you build a business in the right way, the ability to make. And this is what I think I got from this is what, what, um, drew me to Clif Bar was there's sort of five bottom line philosophy. Um, and this idea that if you build a business based on five bottom lines, um, rather than just one, you are um, having actually like a positive impact on the world. And so I think that philosophy sort of seeped into my own ethos. And this is me just speaking personally. Um, and so I think when I decided to have that sort of be the first step in my career, I think I sort of in the, in the nethers of my brain was like, oh, Ollie will take these learnings and put them eventually at some point in my life, um, to my family business. So I think sort of, um. I didn't go there being like, I'm gonna learn here and then go to guitar. I think really following like a passion for, um, business as a means to do good in the world. Um, again, as sort of like cliche as that sounds, um, and you know, learned a tremendous, you know, know, amount of, you know, stuff about brand and marketing and um, really building a great brand. Um, this was in like early 2000s.

Speaker B: So I've heard of Triple Bottom Line. I don't. I remember it's like the revenue, you know, the, the bottom line of profit. The bottom line of like social profit. And then there was either Community or there was. I'm trying to remember the third, but five.

Speaker C: Yeah. I don't know if I can remember what they were back then. Um, People Planet, Profit. God. I want to say Community, which is different from People. Um, People Planet and Brand.

Speaker B: And Brand. So the idea just for everyone listening,

Speaker C: it's essentially triple bottom blind. But they've pulled apart Community and People and Brand and.

Speaker B: Right. And it came. Actually there was a book I forgot

Speaker C: the Guy raising the bar.

Speaker B: Yes. Um, and the idea is really that, like, businesses have tremendous power, as I think we all sort of know, and that regulation only goes so far, but consumers really drive a lot of, you know, decision making and therefore, like, you know, where we're buying our things is really important and brands supporting that can, can have a massive impact, as we've seen. I had Jesse from Good Culture on or like Patagonia. Yeah, Patagonia. Like, that's like the Daddy Mac.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: You know, then there's also like, you know, good Culture. You know, they're trying to convert all of these, like, dairy farms back to regenerative and, you know, help the. Just help these local communities and not necessarily buy from like all of these massive companies, but buy from smaller co ops and make sure that their practices are good. I had simply on and she's going to Peru and she. I mean, she's going all over the world.

Speaker C: Amazing.

Speaker B: To try to support different, um, you know, smallhold farmers basically. But even if it's not necessarily international, it's just making sure that people are well paid and, and that there's some community impact. You're doing well, not just doing good or doing. You're doing good, not just doing well. Um, I guess on the, on the branding side, was there anything that you remember yourself coming to Guitard and being like, we have to do this. Like this. This is like my, my thing now, you know, or like, I really want to bring this to the company or.

Speaker C: Um, I don't think anything explicit. I think the one thing that is, um, you know, and you. This comes across with some of the brands that you just mentioned or that I mentioned is this idea of sort of a lifestyle brand. Um, and I think you find that more easily, if you will, in, you know, you see it in sort of, um, the outdoor industry a lot. Um, and sort of products that speak to a particular sort of moment in time that's allowing someone to achieve their, um, personal, physical, mental goals. Right. Like this jacket you, um, wore when you climbed Kilimanjaro. And you'll forever have that association with this jacket. Right. Or, um, you know, the snack the

Speaker B: first time I made the chocolate mousse.

Speaker C: Yeah. Or like the snack that you. Exactly. Um, or the snack that, um, got you to finish that ultra marathon that you did. Um, and so I think that idea of creating, um, a real emotional tie to, um, the product as a way to create meaning. Uh, and it's a fine line. Right. Like, I am very aware that sort of marketing is about sort of like, again, creating that meaning. Um, and it has to be sincere. At least that's my philosophy. Like, you know, I'm not going to, um. Sometimes I ask myself, like, could I market toilet paper? Like, would I. Would that, you know, if I had

Speaker B: high quality, uh, crafted, you know, like, integrity.

Speaker C: Maybe that's a really bad example and everyone's going to the wrong place. But I, um, think, like, I, um, struggle sometimes with this idea of, like, I just love the fact that we make a product that people enjoy eating inherently. I, like, marketing is, um, can be a really kind of like, dirty term because you're trying to, like, incentivize people to buy. Um. Right. And so I. That's kind of. I'm like the antithesis of most marketers, I guess you could say. Um, or maybe I'd like to think of myself in that. In so much that I just want people to know the story behind our brand, um, and make the choice for themselves. Um, I don't. You know, that's.

Speaker B: No, I think you and I have a very similar sort of, you know, sort of. We get a little bit of, like, a bad taste. But the reality is, is that there are so many choices for consumers and there's so many things that they can use, and we're proud of what we make. I mean, I don't think you could market something that you didn't believe in, um, because it's. It's hard to tell that story and it's hard to, you know. But, yeah, there. There are certainly people who could. Who could sell anything. Um, I guess my last question is about COVID And it was, you know, I guess the. The massive. Sort of. Did that change the trajectory of the CPG brand? Like you said, it was 80 20. Was it just. Was it 8020 before? It's always going to be 80 20, and that's just the way that you guys think about it and expect it. Or did you see, like, okay, wait a second. There's a real shift in the way that consumers are cooking at home. They're baking more. Maybe they're not as like, hardcore about the keto thing. Like, were there lessons that you learned or takeaways from that time that have sort of stuck? Or was it just kind of a.

Speaker C: I think, like, with any moment in time like that, and we'll use Covid as an example, but I think there are lots of different moments that, um, you know, even looking at, like, economic downturns, you find that a lot of people end up doing things at Home, they do craft nights, they bake with their kids. It's sort of like different ways of, um, creating activities rather than sort of like going out into the world. They're coming into their homes. And so I think, you know, like, like anything, it's sort of, um, a snapshot magnifying glass on consumer behavior. And I think that was such a anomaly of an, uh, experience for all of us. And I think the implications and sort of timeline impact of it all was also different for lots of different industries. So, you know, I think that it gave us some learnings on the consumer and their appetite for learning. And, um, I think home baking in general, um, great British breakoff. You know, you see consumers just wanting to explore and learn and try new things. And so, um, I think that it's sort of gave us insight into exactly that.

Speaker B: So, yeah, I think you're right. That really hasn't. Whether it's pandemic related or not, I do think that this, like, yearning on the consumer side to not have everything be so technical and to work with their hands and to make something that is nostalgic and all of that, like, it really does feel like that is a shift that is fairly, um, longer term than just sort of everyone big. Okay, I do have one last question. I promise it's my last question because I think it's a good one. I don't think I've ever had anyone on the show who has been at a. Who has a company that's over 150 years old. So I have a feeling I know what you're going to say, but just in case, if someone listening doesn't want to sell their brand to Craft or Unilever or whatever, and that's not why they're making their CPG company, but they want to build a company that does exist in 150 years from now. What would you tell them? Should be, you know, maybe be their, like, number one priority. Like, what should they be focusing on?

Speaker C: Okay, well, I don't know if I'm the best person to answer this.

Speaker B: Well, we can't ask your. Great, great.

Speaker C: That's like, a lot I have, like, okay, go to a gold rush. I mean, I think, yeah, I think, um, I'm not going to give one answer because I have an inability to just give one answer most of the time. But I would say, um, listen to your customers, stay true to your values and stay humble, I guess. Love it.

Speaker B: Okay, well, that was a beautiful ending. Amy, thank you so much for coming on the show. I will say my chocolate mousse, I think, is, like, really killer. I've been told by French people. Um, and what number do I use? It's like 80. I use the high one.

Speaker C: We have 100. Um, and we have. Well, it depends on what you're using. Are you using. We have a 74, a 66.

Speaker B: No, I'm using the 74.

Speaker C: I think you're probably using a 74.

Speaker B: Yes, yes.

Speaker A: And I.

Speaker B: And I. I believe it's the right. I believe it's the right chip or plate or whatever they're called. What are they called?

Speaker C: Yeah, the viscosity. The wafer.

Speaker B: Yeah, just the wafers.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's definitely an organic wafer. Yes. It's delicious. Um, okay, well, thank you for coming on the show. And, Armin, as always, thank you for engineering today's show. And I don't know when the. I don't even know if I'll be back next week, but I'm pretty sure I'll either we'll be back next week with another episode or the week after. And, um, I'll be in your headphones then, so thanks for listening.