Back of House: People-First HR in High-Turnover Hospitality

Speaker A: Uh, you're listening to the HR Mixtape, a podcast for leaders who want to understand people, strengthen culture, and navigate change with clarity. Today's conversation starts now.

Speaker B: Joining me today is Donna Giarratana, owner of Moxy hr. Donna has built and transformed people and culture functions for hospitality names like the three Michelin Star Inn at ah, Little Washington and the Jose Andres Group, and now helps leaders create people first cultures that show up in the guest experience. Donna, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast with me.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me very excited.

Speaker B: So you have spent years building and transforming HR and hospitality. What made you fall in love with that industry and the very unique people challenges that come with that type of work? Mhm.

Speaker C: So I started many, many, many moons ago. I started as a hostess and kind of worked my way through. I call us like the island of misfit toys. Uh, we were all very special. I'm like Charlie in the box, but different. And the people that work here, uh, you know, I've been my best self in environments within the hospitality organization. So I fell in love with it because of the people and I'm still supporting the people. It's exciting.

Speaker B: You know, being in hospitality, the culture itself isn't just internal, like in a know role. A lot of that is internal. You don't necessarily see it externally unless you're reading, you know, like a, a survey or a glassdoor review. But in hospitality it's very different. That culture is in front of the guests and the clients and it really shows up in that experience. Where do you see that connection most based on the work that you've done?

Speaker C: So between the guest and the internal team, I see it being very similar. So, so the guest wants to be acknowledged. They want to have the empathy and the understanding when they walk in the door, they want to be taken care of. I believe that the team members do as well. Understanding that they're not just there for a job, but to take the next step to make sure they're taking care of their family, getting their benefits, understanding what the expectations of the position are for the guests. They want to come in, they want to feel a part of something, they want to be acknowledged. Eye contact, all of the things. So I think there's a lot of parallels to that, uh, and making sure that not only are we taking care of our people to take care of the guests, but it will relay in that I think glassdoor feedback is very, uh, interesting. It either can make or break you. I think Yelp is sort of like that with hospitality as well. Meg and usually people only go to perhaps both of those if there's a challenging experience. But you learn a lot from that. I mean, as an HR leader, I will go to Glassdoor and try to understand a little bit more from what those feedbacks are so that I can take care of the team in a better way.

Speaker B: So I don't think I've shared this on the podcast before, but I cut my teeth as a very, very young 14 year old in my first job at McDonald's, which I think a lot of people might have a similar kind of origin story. But I was very fortunate that, you know, by 17 I was a manager in that role. And you know, one of the things I think about now as an, as an HR practitioner is there's definitely some myths about leading in that environment, in that restaurant hospitality environment that I think can hurt retention in those groups. So what are some of those that you've seen, those myths you've seen that leaders think this particular population or situation has.

Speaker C: So in today's world there's a lot of different generations of people working. Yes. Whether it be the incoming group of team of people or the people that have been there for forever. We uh, call them the lifers. Right. Like the people that this is their world. And I love them understanding really when they come in as far as the culture and understanding what they want. I believe that every generation may have something different. And I've, in my experience, once we have surveyed or asked the questions, they may want different benefits. You know, some of the younger generation may be on with their family and their parents and they don't need health insurance and just really making sure that we have all of the different areas that come along with that. Uh, the other part of that is, and they say it for corporate world too, but like the, the perks, all the perks come along and we're not talking about benefit perks, we're talking like, hey, let's you know, bring in pizza or whatever sometimes. I mean that's great. I mean obviously our uh, people have to eat as well. But really understanding that that is just an extra, it's not the given to what really I think that they would need or want.

Speaker B: There's also a unique way of managing this group I think because you have and probably the same true is true for any where your clients can be the nicest people in the world that you experience in your day. They also can be the most frustrating, heartbreaking, challenging thing that you have in your day. And so leading in that environment looks a Little different.

Speaker C: M Agreed. I think also that could parallel, again, I use that word parallel with the employee because they also have things. They have people that are, uh, people on our teams that need a little extra, need to be able to be listened to. So, you know, the, the, the employee team member is taking care of the guests that may have challenges and all of the different things that come along with that one instance that you have to take care of them and to really elevate maybe their day or understand them. I really think that's the same as with the employee, with the team member. Uh, you know, they. As a leader, you really do have the opportunity to make somebody's life better. And as an HR leader, I feel like I can pour into that for sure.

Speaker B: How have you worked with the leadership team to instill some of those people first ideas and methodology when you're dealing with, you know, hourly high turnover team members.

Speaker C: So as a leader, no matter where you are, corporate hospitality, all the things I believe, and in my experience, it's pouring into your people. It really is. It's elevating them, supporting them, understanding them. Obviously you have business needs. You have the business numbers and the sales and the turnover and the tips and all of the numbers, which I'm also, you know, as an HR leader, you have to stand up.

Speaker B: But.

Speaker C: And as a manager of a restaurant, like that is something that is core. But I believe that if you take care of your people, those will all come 100%. So making sure that they have all of the tools and background and understanding of, you know, any kind of training that I could provide them. And also, everybody learns different. So whether it be on the phone, maybe video, maybe in person, depending on where they're located, if they need an email with instructions, you know, uh, just making sure, again, I say for the. The managers to take care of the employee, to take care of the guest. I believe HR leaders really do need to support the managers in the same way, because everybody's different and everybody has different needs and giving a little bit of empathy for the managers because they're all dealing. Like they have that whole team underneath them that they're supporting. So, you know, if they have a bad day, right. And as HR leaders, I know, you know, Terry, as HR leaders, we also might have a bad day. So, you know, I used to walk the llama patch. I used to have like a moment where I had to, like, take a moment. But we all impact everybody in one way and really to give the tools and the understanding that we're there to make the next day better and to have that support and, and to listen, that's really important.

Speaker B: How have you seen some of those people first ideas spill into your policies? And specifically I'm thinking about things like attendance, right? Like in restaurant industry, right? Like you got to be there, you got to show up. And those last minute call outs have a huge impact on the rest of the team. So how do you create policies that are our people first, take into account people's situations, but also at the end of the day you got to run the business.

Speaker C: So making sure you ask the questions. So for instance, for attendance, we want to make sure that it is fair and equitable and documentable because you know, nhr you got to document everything. Uh, but also understanding that if there is a, let's say there's a first infraction or somebody's late three times in a row, understanding their people, but falling within a certain line. So if you say the first time that somebody calls out, that's going to be a problem, right. If you're going to let somebody go or if you're, whatever that looks like. So making sure that you have the progressive discipline or whatever that comes, the policies available. But when it comes to attendance, making sure that you are flexible based on circumstances and your restaurant type or wherever you're coming from, uh, and hospitality, understanding what that is, making the structure, making the policy based on that, not just because we always say two call outs in one restaurant versus two call outs in another. You want to make sure that you have it fair and equitable based on your circumstances and then from there having conversations with those employees. Why are they calling out? Why are they being late? Why are they, you know, if they are always losing, let's say always having a flat tire on the way to work six times in a, in a month, you know, there's a problem. So, uh, making sure that you are understanding a little bit more and having a little bit of empathy in that, but falling within our parameters of whatever that policy is. So I think that kind of goes, I mean obviously you have the compliance and you have the laws and the rules and all that. That can't budge. But when it comes to company setup and company culture, what does that look like? And how can we really support the employee but make it that they understand it, they know it. You know, you hand them a handbook and they, yeah, they're not going to read 70 pages, right? So what does that look like? How do you support that and help the manager to enforce it? Right. So when we say you know, three call outs means you're gonna have a conversation, and then six call outs within a certain time period. Obviously, it's really important to take care of the guest, too, and the employee. But whatever that timeframe is, how does the, um, manager approach the employee to have that conversation to make sure that they understand what's coming next or how they can improve it? Or maybe they. I've had a circumstance where they have the employee needed to work at nighttime instead of the daytime because of childcare. And it's like, okay, have a simple conversation. What does that look like? And then you can adjust, like, or if you can't, maybe that's a further conversation. But just making sure that you understand.

Speaker B: Well, that honest conversation with that employee and that example you just gave could go a couple ways, right? You might have a slot in the evening and say, yeah, easy, simple transition. I kind of wish you would have told me this earlier. We could have made the adjustment. Whatever the case may be. The conversation could also go, hey, you know what? We're actually fully staffed at night, and that's not an opportunity for us right now. And not that I'm letting you go, but like, here's the expectation. And if you can't meet the expectation, you know, it might be time to, to move on. Um, or it might be, hey, you know what? This person actually just has a hard time finding childcare. And you have an EAP service that has that built in. Hey, did you know that here's the number to eap, they can actually help you find reliable childcare. So, yeah, I completely agree with the, the mentality of Ron. Like, in every scenario, have a human conversation and don't just, you know, the policy says, because that, like, that's not how life works.

Speaker C: Yep. Ah. And what you don't know, you don't know. And treat them the way you would want to be treated. I mean, obviously, as an HR leader and your brain or a manager, you're like, oh, that was just common sense. Like, why wouldn't you just tell me? But they may have so many things going on that. And also the most important thing is to have income. So they're going to try to make it happen. And then, uh, can you imagine the spiral? You can, probably, because you've seen it. The spiral, they go down until. So just having that open conversation and making sure that they feel heard and seen, but also they know what the rules are. Like, this is something where, if you do have to have that final conversation to say, I'm sorry, this isn't going to work. There's a why. And you have documentation as to why?

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. As you've worked with managers in this space, how have you built out programs that really help them transition from um, you know, the schedule makers or the metrics watchers to real people. Leaders in environments where there isn't a lot of time for them to sit by that desk, behind the desk and go through, you know, corporate training on your lms. Maybe like how do you think about that differently?

Speaker C: It is on the spot, hands on conversations, also understanding how they learn how they work, what environment they are in. The bottom line is, is that they want to become leaders, they're going to move into positions or they need the tools and understanding of what that. Not only the expectation, but just being empathetic and really realizing what it means to be a manager in a restaurant and all of the different moving pieces. Now sometimes you have managers that have been managers forever and ever. Amen. Right? They have really been in it to win it. And it is, that's actually my biggest. I love those because it's like, okay, how can I help them without feeling like I'm um, you know, there's. And it doesn't have to be my way or the highway. I'm very flexible. I love that. I love being able to partner with them and really show them how to mold. And even if they pick up one or two or three things that um, capabilities to be able to support their leader, their uh, employees in a better way or in a different way that maybe they already have done in a long, for the long time. So the young ones, the green managers that have come up and they, or those individuals that have been moved into a leadership position that not necessarily have ever been a manager, those are fun. I mean those are like, let's do it and talk and you know, what is it that you need? And sometimes it's a, uh, I don't want to say a crash course, but it really kind of is because it's like, okay, if you, we have a set of uh, training lms, all the moving pieces that you can actually do, but what do you really need? Like what does that look like? And understanding as a HR leader that if there are mistakes made, I never. People don't make mistakes. Well, generally people don't make mistakes on purpose. Like they're not trying to be whatever that might be. So giving them the tools and the task and saying, I'm open, text me, email me, call me, send me an email that says what you might need And I can give you the tools and, and if, I don't know, I don't know. So, uh, it's fun. That's my, that's my favorite part. Moving somebody from, or giving people other tools and tasks and all the things. So, yeah, it's cool.

Speaker B: Well, and speaking of tools, you know, LMSs are obviously very important and I, I just mentioned that from the perspective of sometimes you don't have the chance to sit behind a desk and do that, but that leads to like having the right tools, meaning if you have that functionality that you can pull it up on your cell phone. Right. And you can watch it in between down times. Right. You're, you're leveraging the technology different and in a better way. And you know, I think about the advancement of AI and all the things that we're going to see, and I'm sure we're going to see, you know, chatbots that leaders like this can have quick conversations with to give them some pointers. So that idea of talking through the scenarios and so good. I mean, I learned so much that way when I was in those types of roles in, you know, at McDonald's. And just you have to, because that's the moment you can't wait till after shift where it's eight hours and you're exhausted and you smell like onions and you just want to leave. You don't want to have a conversation about performance. Um, so I love that. You know, in the hospitality industry though, there, there is specific metrics we need to watch to make sure that our teams aren't getting burnt out. We're not going to see, you know, a spike in turnover. What are some of the things that you watch in those environments?

Speaker C: So a, uh, couple of things. If the employee that is starting or team member that is starting, that is new doesn't make it past a certain 60, 30 day time period. I ask the questions as to perhaps the onboarding needs to be tweaked. You know, those generally those newbies that are coming on fresh face. It's kind of like I say, you know, when you're doing recruiting, it's like you're matchmaking, right? You're matchmaking. We're going to be great. You're going to, come on, you're going to do all the benefits, all the things, and then you have the time period from the time that they start the honeymoon period that comes up probably about 60 days and really checking in with them and touching base and all of that. If there is a break in the honeymoon, perhaps during that time, I want to understand a little bit why as to perhaps that retention rate is not staying, uh, set. And then the other part is that just the call outs, just the, uh, stress of the environment. I have heard most recently about, uh, the double shifts, like, uh, the open closes or the close opens. They call that clopes. Clopins. Clopins, yeah, clopin.

Speaker B: Oh, that's a new one.

Speaker C: That's new. It's like a, it's like an industry term that I'm, you know, I'm get it. Yeah, I've been in the industry for many, don't they, a lot of years. But I was like, oh, it's a clopin. And then you're like, okay, why are you doing two clopins a week, manager? What does that mean? And how do we. Even if they close at 10 o', clock, like just listening and being a part in and understanding, first of all, verbiage and lingo, but also if there is a pattern that comes about, you know, turnover rate, obviously you can't get to that until after it's over. And exit interviews are really important. But if you want to get. I always want to try to be proactive instead of reactive and listening and seeing the call outs and understanding the conversations maybe managers are having with their team members about disciplinary things. And maybe I can help with that or maybe the. Whatever that looks like. So there's a lot of different tools that can be out there. Um, I guess the biggest thing I would say is be proactive instead of reactive. What does that look like for your environment as for mine? Uh, just understanding what that is and how can I help to give the managers the tools. So that would. And maybe the managers themselves, because they're clobing clothing.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a, That's a new one. I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep that one in my vernacular, going forward.

Speaker C: We don't want clippers.

Speaker B: You know, I think about engagement in this environment probably a little bit differently than I think about knowledge workers who might be in a role. You know, while back in the day it was, you know, five plus years. Now it's, you know, two and a half or three years. But that being said, we do talk about engagement, I think differently in these two environments. So, you know, when you think about the perfectly engaged restaurant hospitality employee, what does that look like for you?

Speaker C: Um, I know I said this earlier, I don't think there is a perfectly engaged in that sense because of the different genders, uh, different, uh, generations and people and expectations. Um, you know, the younger generation in these days, they want drive, they want energy, they want to be engaged in the fact that they're using their minds and moving up quickly and doing all of the tasks and tools and all of that. The lifers, they're good. They really want you to hear them, see them, give them the shifts, making sure that they're making the money and they know the environment, they know the expectation of whatever that looks like. Sometimes the two generations, and I shouldn't say two because there's many in between there and. Yeah. Uh, but to say understanding what that looks like and not just by hearsay, in some circumstances you don't want. I mean, you can ask the manager, hey, why is Cindy Lou doing whatever she's doing? Or how do we engage her? Really digging deep, whether it be. And again, it depends on the situation and the circumstance. But going into the restaurants, having those conversations, maybe an employee engagement survey, maybe really taking it to the next to understand. And perhaps some of them, some of the team members, they don't feel comfortable saying what they really need. You know, some people feel like they may be reprimanded if they find out or tell somebody that they're. Somebody else is getting preferential treatment or whatever. That looks like just being open to, uh, having the conversations. And also, uh, one of the things I think is we say that it's always been done like that and it can't always be done like that. Although there are some tried and true things. You know, hospitality is this wonderful, engaging thing, but within HR and within the uh, hospitality industry, you really have to, uh, tweak and be flexible in that manner with the, with the boundaries that are already set. I don't know if that makes any sense, but.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it does. And I like that you mentioned the complexity of those that are lifers and those that are maybe there for uh, a moment in time, a cup of coffee, if I will steal a baseball reference, because I think about that in my time, then again, many, many, many years ago, and you know, we would do fun things to keep us engaged, like, hey, can we upsell fries today? And the lifers wouldn't participate. And it's because they're like, I'm just here doing my job. I don't need the fun, whatever, 15 year old upsell the fry. And it's not, it wasn't a business requirement. Right. It was just something fun to do for the day. And I remember thinking back then, man, like, what a Debbie Downer. They don't want to Participate all that things. Right. As a, as a younger.

Speaker C: Beat you.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, but. But there's, there's realism in that. Are they meeting the expectations of the job? And the answer is yes, the they are. Well, you're going to give them meets expectations on their performance review. So thinking about that as you're implementing these kind of things, keep that in mind. Right. That like you don't want to force a lifer out because you're trying to introduce something new that is appealing to a particular group if it's not a job requirement or a business expectation. For sure.

Speaker C: Also understanding that the lifer may not want to become a manager.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: May not want all those extra responsibilities and uh, don't give me the thresholds. I want to be and do as I am and I'm good with that. Like just keep me. Yeah. It's really for sure.

Speaker B: All right, as we wrap up our conversation, Donna, uh, what's one takeaway that you wish every hospitality leader could tape to their desk today?

Speaker C: I think it was just what I just said about, uh, things don't always have to stay the same. Right. They are always movement. It has always been done like that is really important to understand that, yes, there are some fundamentals that will always stay the same, but you have to evolve and you have to. And how do you do that and support your people? Support yourself too. Right. If you learning and growing and developing and there's so many opportunities out there, you know, so many HR tools, but also for managers and leaders, staying out, getting outside of your box within your organization, but also in your life. Because I mean, I feel like hospitality really has. It's special and you have so many different skills and talents and learning and growth opportunities out there. Just, you know, make sure you don't stay right.

Speaker B: Such good advice. Such a great conversation. Donna, thanks for jumping on the podcast with me.

Speaker C: Thank you, Sherry. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the HR mixtape like share, review and subscribe to support the show and help more people discover these conversations. Until next time, keep the conversation going.