#298: Joe Manchin, Former Governor and Senator, West Virginia - How to find common ground

Speaker A: Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Today, David sits down with Joe Manchin. He's the former governor and senator of West Virginia. And with July 4th happening in just a few days, this is the perfect guest to welcome in the iconic celebration of America's 250th. Joe's independent political stance has given him a unique opportunity to find common ground in Washington, even among people with deeply disagreeing viewpoints. Every leader needs to get people with different perspectives aligned, uh, and working together. And in this conversation, Joe will show you just how to do that. Enjoy this conversation and I will see you at the debrief.

Speaker B: I want to start by saying I understand you actually have a houseboat. And, uh, you would host senators from both parties on your houseboat for pizza and beer. And I gotta know, I mean, you know, usually when you think of a senator, you know, they're dressed perfectly like you. The blue suit and red or blue tie. I mean, what was the dress code you had for everybody?

Speaker C: Not on the boat, buddy. You couldn't come with a tie on a boat, that's for sure. Or even a sport coat. Anyway, the boat's called Almost Heaven. Uh, I've always boated all my life, you know, in different ones. This is a big trawler, people. That Naramboni. It's a big 65 foot trawler, 20 foot beam on it. It's a big boat. And I bought it out of bankruptcy and fixed it all up. So that tells you I'm pretty frugal on things of that sort. But anyway, it's a wonderful platform to bring people together. And in Washington you will find out there's very little time to co. Mingle. Very little time when Democrats and Republicans can have a bottle of beer together or, uh, just a glass of wine or some water, refreshments and a little bit of heat and enjoy each other's company in the evening. There's a very few evenings you can do that. But when we had the boat available, we had one rule. Whatever we brought down that there were Ds, we had to have that many Rs. If that many Rs came, we had that many Ds. So if you had 4 and 4, 3 and 3, 5 and 5, whatever. And we have wonderful times. And at the end of every night, we were on top deck of the boat, we would all get in the circle, and I would put on Lee Greenwood, proud to be an American, and everybody would be in a circle hugging each other and we'd Be singing. That's how we ended every evening. So it was memorable times for everybody, and a lot got done. I said, we pass as much, if not more, legislation ideas on the boat than we did in the Capitol.

Speaker B: D Tell me one of the more memorable stories on the boat where that really happened.

Speaker C: Well, the memorable story is, is that, you know, I'd bring people down, and some. And as I've said before, people didn't know each other. And this is in the book. I wrote all these different things and put antidotes in there. But one night, I had Tom Harkin down from Iowa. Tom was a wonderful human being, just a good man. A little bit more left, Much more left than me, let's put it that way, but still a very good person. So he came on the boat and he said, joe, I can't believe it. I'd been 30 years. I've never been on the Potomac River. And I said, tom, you're going to have a wonderful evening. We'll go out and look at the monuments and do all that and have a glass of wine, a little bit of food, boom, boom, boom. And he said, that's going to be wonderful. And about that time, Ted Cruz walked down the dock to get on the boat. He said, let me off this damn boat. I thought he was going to jump off. I said, no, no, Tom, wait. They didn't even know each other, but they knew they were so, uh, diabolically apart that they figured they could not even be on the same boat. And I said, no, no, no. So take that. I gave him another glass of wine, and I said, hurry up. Untie the lines of the boat. Let's go. So once I got him on there, he and David, about an hour later, those two were talking and in deep conversation. And the next day or two, they did an amendment together for children, something that was really needed. And it's unbelievable that would never happen without them spending a little time on the boat.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you had that instinct. Once you got them on there, you took off.

Speaker C: Once I got them on, well, I could tell that things weren't, uh, that rosy at the dock. I better get off the dock quick. Get off the boat.

Speaker B: You know, you're great at this. And so what can a leader do in a divided room that actually changes the temperature that brings people closer together?

Speaker C: Well, let me tell you, if you're trying, if they're bringing you in and you're the leader, or you're a mediator, whoever you are, whatever you do, but trying to bring people together, find Some commonality. So if you're bringing on a special problem that we have before that meeting starts, uh, what's your hobby? What do you enjoy? And you'd be surprised. You'll find something that both of you all can talk about. Once you find something you can talk about and you know whether it could be golf, it could be hunting, could be fishing, could be basically just hiking, could be anything. Find something of commonality that people in the room can talk about. Once you find that you can talk about problem areas. If you start out with the deepest problems you got, I'll guarantee you can't get back to anything you agree on because you're so mad when you went in there. And, you know, you're so different. We're just trying to find a pathway forward. So I always have done this. I said, tell me what you like, and, Dave, and you'll say, well, I'm not here to talk about that. Let's just say you're being, uh, pretty tough on this. I brought you into a meeting and you maybe didn't want to come, Dave, and maybe you thought it was fruitless to even be there. So I would say, no. Dave, tell me, is golf your thing? What's your thing? Scuba diving, Is it? Hiking? What is it? And we start talking, and I might not be doing the same thing you are, but I'll know a little bit about it or know somebody in my family that, uh, really has the same. Same approach that you have and same desires, then we start, we break that barrier. Once you break the barrier, I can talk about difficult things. You can tell me what your problems are. And I said, david, fine. Only thing I can tell you this before we start. If we can't change our minds, we can't change anything. So if we're prepared to look at things differently now and finding out that we have different positions, but there might be different facts that have not been brought to our attention, we have to be able to change our minds, to accept the facts if they're accurate. That's all. Once you can get that, don't get hunkered down. But you can tell. I can tell when I've got people, David, that there's personality clashes. I've been in meetings before where I asked two people to leave the room. And I said, I can tell you one thing, this will be a fruitless adventure, uh, because you two have already decided you're in. You know, your DNA doesn't match. Uh, and basically you all have a personal conflict and you're not going to Be opened up to what we need to talk about. And we've been able to move forward. So a leader has to be able to, to identify can we get a positive result, can we move the ball forward?

Speaker B: You know, one of the things that, you know, we've already picked up is a couple of great insights on how to bring people together. And I can't wait to get more into your leadership journey. But first, I want to take you back, Joe. You know, what's the story from your childhood that, uh, really shaped the kind of leader you are today?

Speaker C: I think watching my parents and my grandparents, how they treated people as a young person. There was 20 of us, little grandchildren. There was five in my family, five in, uh, my aunt and uncle's family and big families. Okay. And there was five. My dad had four siblings, and we were all close. My grandmother made us cognizant of our surroundings. They came both. My grandparents on both sides came from Europe. On my father's side, they came from Italy, southern Italy. On my mother's side, they came from Ostrava, Czechoslovakia. So they were all hard working, came from mining communities. And they understood what it would take to have a better life. And they came to this country and they were always so appreciative. And they preached to us all the time. It's by the grace of God that we have the opportunities to help others. And that Mama K would always say, joe, if we can count our blessings, we can share our blessings. We didn't have much, okay. And I thought I was the most privileged child in the world. And I said, I was raised as a privileged child. People said, what, do you live in a big house? Well, I lived in a three room garage apartment beside, uh, my grandparents. Did you live in a big fancy neighborhood? I lived between the railroad tracks and Buffalo Creek. Why did you think you were so privileged? I said I had unconditional love. I knew there was someone that loved me unconditionally, no matter what I did, messed up, because they always expected that better from me and they would help correct it. So I was held at a very young age to be held accountable and responsible for the words I said, how I said it, and who I might have hurt. And they have consequences, you know, Joe,

Speaker B: you and I have something in common. You know, we both have a little Czechoslovakian roots, you know.

Speaker C: Really?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. My father came, uh, from Czechoslovakia or his family, and my mother came from the, uh, German side, you know, but. And a little similar. And our backgrounds are similar too, in terms of the, uh.

Speaker C: Yeah, they're tough people, boy, I'll tell you. Hard, hard working.

Speaker B: I grew up in a trailer court, and I thought I was privileged, too, for the same reasons that you talk about having, ah, a loving mom and dad is about the greatest gift God could give you.

Speaker C: I think the most, um, rememberable time I have as a young child, my grandmother made all of us whitewash her basement, keep her clean. She had a shower and a bed down there. And anybody that was homeless. But you're talking back in the 50s now, okay? 57, 55 to 55 to 60 especially. There was no social net whatsoever. None. And with that, people would be riding the train, I guess, and they'd be what we call homeless today. But these were different people. They were all skilled. And they would end up and knock on Mama K's door, and they said, mama Kay, can I. Can I stay for a little bit? And she said, sure, honey. She said, I got three rules. Can't cuss, you can't drink, and you have to work. Now, with those three rules, you can stay here with Mama Kay if you need a place to stay. And they'd say, stay in the race. We had names for everybody. Wilbur, Willie, Peg, Lake, Peggy. We had them all. And they were fantastic tradesmen. They could paint and carpenter work and everything. Unbelievable. So then about six weeks would go by, and David, off they go. And I said, hey, Mama K, what happened to D. Lord? She said, oh, honey, don't worry. He'll be back in about six weeks. He's on the tude again.

Speaker B: Is that where you learned the power of the dignity of work? I know you talk about that.

Speaker C: Exactly. So what happened? It carried me all through, and I could not figure out. I saw my parents and my grandparents have the most compassion for people who had handicaps, whether mental or physically. And back then, a lot of kids had polio. And if I was walking with my grandmother and we were raised all Catholic, and we'd stop, and Mama Kay would make us say the sign of the cross and say a prayer. And she'd always say, joe, by the grace of God, that could be you or I. And blessings, you know. And then Thanksgiving time, she said, you've got to find somebody who doesn't have a home to have a meal in. Go find a child and bring him home with you. And one time, I was wanting to eat Thanksgiving dinner so bad, one time, they were not. Cause she's unbelievable. Um, they were all unbelievable cooks, and I couldn't find anybody. Mama K said she saw someone that day up in Our little Farmington, little coal mining town. She said, I think that kid might be homeless or doesn't have a place to go. I kept running up and down the streets trying to find somebody and find that kids right. Go home and eat. I finally saw a guy just walked out of his house and some kid, and I said, come on, you're going with me. He said, what? And so you had Thanksgiving, uh, dinner. He said, I just ate Thanksgiving dinner. I don't care. You got to walk and act like you're hungry. I'm not going to eat. So I remember all those things. But Mama K, that's great. She was something. And people loved her and she loved them and, and. But everybody, everything had a work connotation. At 10 years of age, I had to go work for my grandfather in the grocery store. Yeah, little grocery store. At 13, I got to work for my father in the furniture store. And at 16, if I was good enough, I got to put a tie on and see if I could sell something. Well, I can tell you, by the time I hit 16, Dave, I wasn't going back to the truck. I was going to sell something.

Speaker B: You know, uh, and speaking of work, you go on to start your own business, Intersystems, which is a coal business, and you built that from scratch. And what did building something from scratch teach you about leadership that politics never could?

Speaker C: Well, I was never, Dave. I was never in. I was 35 years old before I got involved in politics. I was always around it and watched it, and my uncle was always involved. He was a, uh, secretary of state and he was a treasurer, uh, state treasurer. And he was always involved statewide races and legislature and everything. And I was always interested, but I didn't think I'd ever want to be involved. I never did see him on the holiday because he was always on a parade or out somewhere campaigning. And then I looked at myself 30 years from then and I said, hey, like, I'm as bad, if not worse than he was. But, uh, anyway, just what it is, public service. There's a calling. I don't know what to tell you. There was a calling. I watched my grandmother take care of m so many people. I watched my dad, who was mayor, and I watched decisions and how they tried to make it better. And the purpose was serving. It wasn't anything about them or what they could get from it or what came from being in public service. And John Kennedy, when he. The Kennedys took West Virginia like storm in the 1960 primary election, he had to win that to debunk the, uh, religious barrier, which is being a Catholic. And I'll never forget one night we're watching television, little black and white television day. And my mom and I were there, and it, uh, must have been Walter Cronkite says that John Kennedy becomes president, the Pope will run the country. I looked at my mom and I said, well, mom, they don't know the Catholics we know. So anyway, so I've just kind of watched and observed all of that. And I had how I got into the business was there's a lot of my friends in the coal business that were basically losing their jobs. And they were so talented and wanted a place to work and says, joe, you're in. You've been in state government. You understand all this. He says, why don't you get involved? This is 1989. You can help. You know where people are, where you can sell this coal. We can mine the coal and make sure that what we do is done properly, as long as we have someone that can market it and sell it. So that's how I started. So I would look and see, well, people go golf on Wednesday. That means if they're going golfing, well, heck, they're not working, they're going golfing. So that's been my big day. And weekends, nobody worked on Saturdays. And if I could find somebody, uh, that was buying coal or anything on the weekend, I'd go then. So I looked at every vulnerable area that I thought my competition had in order to take advantage and fill a niche, you know.

Speaker B: And you've, uh, you've been around so many great leaders and you've seen so much. What's the best leadership advice you ever received and who gave it to you

Speaker C: from a public servant? You know, Bob Bird gave me some of the better advice that I've ever had, especially how I can understand how Washington worked or how the US Senate worked. And I didn't know anything because I didn't follow. I never thought I'd ever be in the United States Senate. I just wanted to do everything I could for my state. So I was in the House of Delegates. Then I was in the state Senate. Then I was Secretary of State. I got defeated for Governor 96 in the primary. I got beat. Then I came back in 2000 and I ran for Secretary of state and won that one. Now I ran for governor two. Four. And won that. Ran for reelection in 208 and won that. And then in 210, uh, Bob Bird died. Okay. And then I ran for his uncle. His, uh, remaining of his two years of his term to 2012. And I ran again then I ran in 2018. So I had two terms full and 1 and 12 year term of his extension. He told me this every time Dave I saw him. He must have been preparing me because he wanted me. I'll never forget. See this little pen I have on here?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: This is a US Senate pen. Okay. And I sold him one time. We were sitting there and this had to be when I was governor in 2, 5 or 2, 6. And I said, well, he was explaining to me about Senate. He said, senate is the most deliberate body in the world, Joe. He says everybody tries to break it. Every president wants absolute power. Everybody who's in the majority wants total power to overrun the other side. And what goes around comes around. You have to remember that. And the other thing about the Senate, it's a deliberate body because it takes more than, uh, just a simple majority. It takes a more super majority of 60 votes to even get on a piece of legislation. It always gives the minority the opportunity to participate. You can't shut out the other side. That's what's made our country so special. And he says, remember this, the president is not. You don't work for the president. I don't work for anybody. The majority leader. I don't work for anybody. What you do is I work for this. Basically, the oath of office I took was my oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution. And I work for the people that hired me to represent them. We live in a republic which is by the people, and we live in a representative form of democracy, which is an experiment. No one's ever done it. And it's never lasted this long. 250 years, David. And basically what it said is we should be able, as citizens, free citizens, with all of us enjoying the pursuit of happiness, be able to pick the person we want to represent us in certain aspects of public life. Now look what's happened. It's the party picking in the Democrat and Republican party have total control. It's a duopoly. And it's exactly what George Washington warned us about. He says the political parties could be the engines for unscrupulous or overreaching men who basically will usurp the power from the people. They would use the parties to usurp the power from the people. And that's exactly what they've done. And that's why there's people like me, 45% plus, that are no party affiliation or independence now, because I've seen it from the inside out. So the thing that stuck in my mind the most, what's your purpose in public service? Is it to serve the public or to serve yourself? And you got people today that are going in there for fame and fortune, not for public service. And if you're going in for public service, then you're going to fix things that need to be repaired. You're going to introduce things that are new in, uh, technology coming on. And how do people, how can we benefit from it? And we've lost that. Harry Bird wanted me to vote one time for something. He said there's going to be a party line vote. I never heard the word when I was in West Virginia about party line. You mean we only. We don't even talk to the other side. We don't work with the others. We don't need the other side. And never resonated until Bob Byrd explained to me how the system worked. And that stayed in my mind. And when I did become a senator, I remember what he said. Joe, they will try to get you to support what they call reconciliation, which means you don't have to talk to anybody on the other side. If you're a Democrat, forget about the Republicans. If you have 51 Democrat senators, you don't have to talk to the other side. That's how the House operates every day. David. But here's what George Washington, he knew about that, and he was concerned, very much concerned. And Thomas Jefferson was concerned also. His famous words were this. He said, when the people fear their government, it's called tyranny. When the government fears its people, it's called liberty. And you start thinking of where we are today and what, you know, all the different signs we're getting and the different types of personalities that are involved. I still think the checks and balances are in place. I think that we'll be able to get through all the things that people think we can't get through. I always want my present to be to be successful. And if I'm in the position to help, I'm going to help. But also, I think sometimes in helping. Dave, speaking truth to power respectfully is just as helpful as it is agreeing.

Speaker B: You know, speaking of, you know, power, you know, the President has the most power in our country, more so than,

Speaker C: more so than what was intended to be.

Speaker B: And although, you know, you as a senator, you did not work for the President, you served the people. What's the biggest thing you learned about leadership? Just watching Joe Biden in action.

Speaker C: I was disappointed because I knew Joe for an awful long time. Okay. And he was a friend. I really thought the world of him. But, uh, when he got to be president, uh, it just kind of like he lost the fight, the will to fight. And I told him, I said, Mr. President, you're letting a very liberal group of people take you down the primrose path. You'll never be able to return from it. This is not who you are. And I said, please, let's work through this. You're the one on the stage running for a Democrat primary that said, I know how the place works. I've been there for 35 years, I've worked across the aisle, um, and I watched Joe Biden continuously work in a bipartisan way and understanding how sacred and that the filibuster was to hold our country together so that we won't, wouldn't be flip flopping back and forth like other countries around the world. And, um, then when he got there and just seemed like that the liberal, the left side of the liberal, far extreme wings of the party took over. And that's where I was at odds with.

Speaker B: So you learned from him that you can really lose your roots if you're not careful. How about, uh, President Trump? What's the biggest thing you've learned watching him in action?

Speaker C: Well, I probably spent more time with President Trump than most of any other presidents I worked with. He was very engaging. I enjoyed the engagement. We could talk of this and that, but he had, you know, all of them, they just want do this or don't do this or I don't care if you do this or that, you know. And the other thing I had to tell him in a very nice way, I said, you know, Mr. President, I'll vote for the Supreme Court if I feel that that's responsible and I can explain it and I, uh, will do it on my own time basis. I'm so sorry, sir. I hope it doesn't offend you, but I will do and be able to go home and explain it. And I would do that in such a nice way. The thing I knew the difference between Senator Trump, I mean, President Trump and President, uh, Biden. President Biden had been a senator, so he'd been a public servant, he'd been a representative. I knew that President Trump had not. So I thought, you know him, he's going to come a little bit harder at this. Not understanding. There's some checks and balances and there's a purpose. So if he got upset or got mad, I understood that. It didn't bother me because I understood he would not Understand that. I just knew this. If he had been in the Senate, he would understand probably more why I was doing what I was doing than not. So I had to be a little bit more differential towards them.

Speaker B: Yeah. You talk about the importance of being able to go home and explain what you're doing and why you're voting this way or that way to your people. And you're also called, uh, a, uh, retail politician. I was in the retail business. I think I know what that means. But what does being a retail politician mean to you?

Speaker C: I would go in and first of all, everybody that I would come into my staff, whether I was a governor, whatever position I held, I said, how do you answer the phone? Let me hear. How would you just normally coming in here? They said, well, sure. I would just say if they called your office, this is Senator Manchin's office. This is the Governor Manchin's office. How can I help you? And I said, well, let's stop right there. The word can tells me a lot or tells me nothing. I don't know if you can. I don't know if you're prepared to. I don't know if you really want to. So let's not use the word can any work anymore. May. Let's use may. If you said, may I help you? I know you're ready. I know you're prepared. I know you want to. There's a difference. You break down every barrier by that first phone call. That's retail. Now, that's a customer just called in. Well, you know what, which customer says this? Uh, I can't wait to get a phone call from the irs. I just can't wait. They're so wonderful. I want to talk to them. We don't think that way about government or anybody. We don't think we want to get good service because they got control. Whether they talk to me or not, whether they like me or not, whether they're nice or not, I said, we're not going to be that. I want this to be the best experience anyone's ever had with government, whether it be state or federal. So may we help you? Let me know this, and if you don't hear from me in three or four days, please call me back. Sometimes things fall through the crack. And don't you hesitate to call me back once you do that. You've covered all your bases because you know, Cicero said to errors, human. You're a human being, David. You're going to make mistakes. But if you saying that I'm prone to make a Mistake. But, you know, some people say, well, I didn't call. Didn't want to bother you. Wait a minute, you're not bothering me. You're just basically reminding me to do my job if I forgot something. So I would cover all bases, you

Speaker B: know, so, you know, you were a Democratic senator for 14 years, and I think you've explained why you went independent because you were fed up with the way.

Speaker C: No, no, the work ethic. It was a work thing.

Speaker B: Well, explain that.

Speaker C: It was the straw that broke the camel's back. They got mad at me because they said, joe Manchin's killed killing childcare. I said, have you all ever worked with poor people? Have you ever been around poor people? I said, you people are talking two hundred and four hundred thousand dollars of income. We don't have people in West Virginia at 200 or 400. And if we do it, it's very, very few and far in between. The people that need help are mostly single parents trying to raise a child, mostly females. And they do need help. And you take a certain person up to $75,000 of income, they should, uh, be able to get some assistance. I said, so we have a difference of where the need is, and it won't be so costly that we can't afford it when we throw the country into a tailspin. On the other hand, then they got mad at me and they said they wanted to send $300 child credits, child tax credits for people that weren't working. I said, wait a minute. If you've got people that aren't working in their home, I thought the whole incentive of child care was to help you have a responsible, livable job. And I said, I'm not for that. I can't do that. And everybody got upset. I said, oh, I'm out of this. I don't belong to this party.

Speaker B: So, you know, as an independent, then you're not a Democrat, you're not a Republican. Uh, you know, I told the Republicans

Speaker C: they wouldn't like me any better than the Democrats. Yeah, but how do you lead with everything?

Speaker B: How do you lead when nobody's fully on your side? Because, you know, you got the Democrats irritated, the Republicans irritated. There you are. I mean, how do you lead when you don't have an affiliation and you're out?

Speaker C: David, everybody wants to work together. Everybody wants to work together, but they're expected in Washington to pick your side and be against the other side. So when there are some people that says, we want a bipartisan bill, they would come to me. I had A D by my name. And I was the one that would always cross over if it made sense. But, I mean, it's so estranged here. Uh, and it's so challenging and difficult. If you're in cycle, that means you're up for election in two years, and you're in this, they call it cycle when you're in two years as a senator, because it's what you run every six years. You're in a cycle. They don't want. If you're a Democrat and I'm a Republican, David, they don't want me to sign on to a good piece of legislation that you're trying to pass because you might get credit for it and help you get reelected. I couldn't agree to any of this stuff. I said no, if that's good, it's good when he's running, it's good when he's not running and we can get it passed, I'm for it. So I was always against the grain.

Speaker A: Hello, friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always. David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end, and I will see you soon.

Speaker B: So people come to you, Joe, because you can bring people together, but how do you bring two opposing sides that don't trust each other, particularly in today's world? And you've got the. The cycle that you just talked about. What's your playbook for doing that?

Speaker C: Well, you got to be careful and look and see basically who you're dealing with here. If you're dealing with leadership, the leaders have probably already staked out where they are, uh, you know, philosophically where they are and what their purpose is. And they've already got their base, which is where the money comes from, the basis. And that's where the two parties, they have the hard left and the hard right. Those are the extremes. Well, the amount of money that's able to come into the political process, you know, is unbelievable. $24 billion was spent in a presidential primary in 2024. 24 billion, okay, four and a half billion came from just the billionaire class. We've never done that before. So that's what's thrown everything out of kilter. So you have to recognize that. And you got to recognize the leaders are not going to disrupt that because that disrupts their cash flow. Their business plan doesn't work if they try to do always the right thing. And not what's best for the, to keep the numbers. And remember the two numbers that every uh, party is looking for. They want 218 in the House, 51 in the Senate to control the majorities. That means they control the agendas. Once they do that, David, within the Senate you have to have 60. You might not pass anything, but that's okay. You're still got the church, you got uh, you got the gavel, you're in charge. And the only thing I have said, I go and look at like minded people that basically want to get things done. It doesn't matter about being a D or an R. And some of my dearest friends are Republicans and Democrats that I know that do not subscribe. But if they get in leadership, they're held hostage. So sometimes if you get five or six or 10 senators that are kind of working in a centrist way, and I'll give you a perfect one, the bipartisan infrastructure bill. It was not done from leadership. It was done by those of us we had about five and five each. Democrat, Republicans, we sat down, we worked through how we could adjust this so we could both live with it and sell it. And then we went and pushed the leadership and then the leadership put it on the table. They weren't going to do it on their own because they'd never gotten down to where they had all the work, the work that needed to be done. So you know, I just, I look at, I just know that the human side of it, David, you want to get along with people, you want to be sociable, you want to be able to have dialogue. And I was that person. I could give you sociability up, uh, by the spades. I could give you a dialogue as much as you wanted, whenever you needed it. And I was always there so I'd feel comfortable, I just felt comfortable. And come on, we're better than that. And I'd walk into the Republican cloak room, they say, oh boy, uh, you switch over. And I say, guys, I've always been with you when you're right.

Speaker B: That's really interesting because you know, one of the things that I've always seen is as a leader, there's a lot of power at times to shame people into doing the right thing. Can you tell a story about when you've done that?

Speaker C: Well, in the business world it's different, but in the uh, in the political world, shaming somebody, you've got to be careful how you do that.

Speaker B: I don't mean shame in a negative way, but it's more in the sense of appealing to somebody's sense of doing right, that if you don't do right, you should sort of be ashamed of yourself. That's what I mean. I would never imply otherwise in politics, David.

Speaker C: I always want my staff to be engaged in the mornings. We have, um. Every morning meeting. I have a phone call every morning, no matter what. Even if I was on the road, nine o', clock, everybody, we talked. I want to hear their input. I said, guys, at the end of the day, I said, you know, we got. I'll make a final decision. We're all on the same team. And every now and then they get a little antsy and fighting back and all that. And I say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, please. I must have missed something when I came to work this morning. Go out and check on the door and see if my name's still on it. I said, uh, they might have erased it and maybe yours is up there now, you know, and that would kind of. Okay, I got you. I know where you're coming from. I said, come on, guys, we're going to be together, okay? And they know that. I said, fight for your position. Fight for your. Be respectful. Fight for your position, and then I'll come out and make a decision. And sometimes you'll be happy that we did a lot of things you recommended. Sometimes you won't be, but I'll never embarrass you. But I had. When I would hire people, I would tell my staff to bring me the best three. Let me put. Let me choose from three. So they would always tell me that. And one time when I was governor, we were looking for a person to run a public insurance agency. PIA Public Employees Insurance Agency. And, uh, I said, you got three good people because we need some help there. And they said, yeah, we got three good people. But the best person didn't want to be interviewed. I said, what? They said, the best person didn't want to be interviewed. And I said, really? And I said, give me that person's name and phone number. And I called the person and I. We had very cordial conversation. I said, um, let me ask you something. I said, how do you like the life you have? And the person said, I like. I have a good life. I like it very well. And I said, I understand you don't want to be even interviewed for this job. Can you tell me why? Well, uh, because, you know, being a public job, there might be things that I've got to make decisions on that my kids will hear people talk about me and this and that, and it'll upset them. And I said, really? I said, okay. And I said, uh. And you say you like the life you have and you like the family you have. I said, wouldn't this be a very poor country to live in if everyone took the same position you're taking with the ability that you have, the knowledge you have to help the state of West Virginia that you say you reside in and you love, but you're afraid, because you're afraid that someone's going to say something that might upset your children. And I said, the only thing I can tell you, I told my children, I'm going to be in public service. You're going to hear things. But I want you all to understand that's a very small price to pay for the great opportunity we have to live one heck of a quality life that most people don't have in the world.

Speaker B: Well, that's a great example, Joe, of positively shaming somebody into doing the right thing.

Speaker C: Well, you know what? He signed up the next day, came to work.

Speaker B: Not surprised. Not surprised. You know, uh, uh, as a leader, you really can't escape failure. I mean, in fact, failure is something that happens to, uh, all of us. What's a decision you made that you regret, and what did it teach you?

Speaker C: We were at an armed services meeting. We had all the joint Chiefs of Staff, and we were don't ask, don't tell. Remember the don't ask, don't tell error? Bill Clinton, when he put that in. And by this time, Barack Obama, they wanted to maybe move on from that. You know, don't ask, don't tell. Just everyone's accepted in. And so I didn't know any difference about that. I have no preference whatsoever. I think everyone has the right because the oath that I take gives me the responsibility to make sure you have the ability to pursuit, uh, of happiness. So whoever you want to be, whoever you want to love, however you want to live your life, as long as you don't make me believe that I should believe the same. But I'm going to defend you to live yours and enjoy that pursuit of happiness. I would defend that. But what happened was they were going down the line of all of the military. Will this change how you're doing? Air Force says no. We think we can live if we get rid of don't ask, don't tell, and then went on down until we got to the Marines commandant. And the Marine commandant said at that time, listen, I've got 50% of my people deployed in Afghanistan. Iraq right now. This is a major, major policy change that could be affecting our fighting personnel. When I heard that, I said, oh, boy. I said, maybe we better not do that right now. So I did not support it. Getting rid of no Dance, Don't Tell. And then later I watched what had happened and it didn't have any effect whatsoever by getting rid of it because everybody pretty much knew they just didn't have to live in fear of getting thrown out of the military. Okay, well, I was on. I was doing a talk show and Rachel Maddow was one of the people. You know, Rachel was pretty far left, right? And she was doing it. She said, and someone said, does anybody have any questions for Senator Manchin? And, um, Rachel says, oh, I do, I do, I do. And she asked, she said, she jumped up and she says, Senator Manchin, um, you were against getting, uh, rid of don't ask, don't tell. Uh, what do you think about that? And I said, rachel, I made a mistake. I says, I was listening to the testimony of people in front of me and I just maybe didn't go deep enough to find out that it hadn't affected. It wasn't going to affect because pretty much everyone knew who was who in the military right now, and now it wasn't a threat of getting thrown out if you are gay. That was a difference. And I said, I have nothing against people's sexual preferences. I said I didn't know if it would be able to affect or would it have any effect. I made a mistake. I didn't do it. And I retracted that. And for that I'm sorry.

Speaker B: And what was the reaction?

Speaker C: She went, oops, uh, and we became friends.

Speaker B: What's the most difficult, the hardest no vote you ever had to cast? And what'd you learn from that? What'd it cost you?

Speaker C: Well, to tell the President of the United States if. Six trillion, ten trillion, three tribes. The biggest bill that anyone ever put up in Congress before, which is the BBB Build Back better for Joe Biden, and he needed all 50 senators and 49 senators had signed on to that bill. And I could not because there was so much in that bill that I knew would make our country completely dependent on the government. And I had to tell the President in the White House, in his living quarters, that I couldn't support it. And I said, M. Mr. President, you and I are about the same vintage. I said, we remember John Kennedy asking not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. And I took that. So Serious, which I'm sure you did. And it took a lot of us into public service because we thought that everyone ought to have the ability and have the opportunity to serve. Um, you don't have to run for office, but you have to give something back to your country. You've got to do something because you own it. It's a republic. We own it. You have me vote for this bill, and I'm the vote you need to pass this piece of legislation. I believe in my heart of hearts you're going to change the psychic of a nation to how much more can my country do for me? And I said, sir, I didn't sign up for this. I wasn't raised that way. And I definitely don't believe that. I believe that everybody has a responsibility to give something back to this country. Country was not designed. And the government we have is not. Was not designed to be your, uh, provider. It was designed to be your best partner you've ever had. But a partnership takes both of us pulling that rope. And that's not what this is, sir. And I cannot vote for that. And I mean, the whole country went crazy against me because I killed the most landmark piece of legislation that all the progressive has wanted. It would have been socialism on steroids, and I could not do it.

Speaker B: How do you get, you know, innately you have courage and conviction? Uh, how do you. What advice would you give a leader on how, how they can develop the kind of courage of conviction you gotta have if you're gonna be a good leader?

Speaker C: Evaluate. If it comes down to the final straw that might change your direction as far as how you take care of yourself or your family, uh, then you got to look and see, do I have the ability to market myself and still make a living for my family and take care of myself and not be dependent on other people? Once you evaluated where you stand in life and how you can survive in this world of ours, then your decisions should be made on can you live with yourself? Is it going to be haunting you? Is it going to be something you said I couldn't. I, uh, wish I could do. Oh, redo it. I wish I had never done that, knowing that you thought, there's a difference. If you thought you were making the right decision with the facts that you had and the info you had in front of you, David, and it turned out to be wrong. You can repair that because you didn't intend to do anything wrong. It turned out not to be good, but your intention was to be good. You just had the wrong info. You didn't do enough homework to get the right info. Okay, you can live with those. Um, what you can't live with, when you know something is wrong, you know it's being done for the wrong reason. And you know in your heart of hearts you can't change that's inside. What's inside your soul is inside your soul. You know it, but you do it because you think it'll enhance your opportunities or your status or whatever. And, uh, when you do that, that's when you've sold yourself down. So I've always said, let me say if I do that and people don't and they're mad at me and I don't, uh, I'll give you a perfect example. I had to vote. I voted because I felt very strongly about background checks for guns. And I come from one of the most gun states there is. Okay? The Second Amendment's precious to me and to all of us. But I've never known anybody didn't have background check that bought guns. Now, it might be a lineage where your father bought a gun, gave you his gun, or vice versa, but there was a process, and now they didn't want that at all. And I thought it should be done. And they came after me. Everyone came after me, Democrats and Republicans that were Second Amendment people. I had to work my butt off and go around to every gun store in West Virginia, explain to them that this is what we're doing, which is basically helpful to their business and making sure they always in people selling guns on the next corner. Danny, Tom, Dick and Harry. Just because they didn't have a background yet.

Speaker B: That's a great example of a very tough issue. And you had to win over a constituency to move on.

Speaker C: And you know what? I thought if I got defeated based on that, then I could live with myself. Because I don't want someone to have a gun that shouldn't have a gun just because we didn't want to take a background check and didn't know that they were criminally or mentally insane or criminals before and was going to do it again if you gave him a gun. I still think very strongly about that, but I could take a defeat on that. I wasn't afraid. I wasn't afraid.

Speaker B: David, getting defeated, that was definitely a tough issue that you handle. And speaking of toughness, what's. What would be the hardest person you ever had to win over? And how'd you do it? Because leaders, we've got to take on those people that sometimes, you know, if you don't get Them on your side, you're. You're in, uh, you're in tough shape.

Speaker C: Well, this is the big leagues up here. So there's an awful lot of good, uh, strong, tough people, you know, and you got to work on them from the standpoint and find. And when you have a person, I can tell you, when a person tells me and say, hey, Joe, would you sign on to this amendment for me or this bill with me? And I'd say, um, let me look at that. Sure, I hope I can. I said, sounds like a good idea. And, uh, I've always taken the approach that if somebody comes to me from Missouri or Kansas or anywhere in the country, they're coming because they want to fix something that will help their constituents. Well, I'm there to help also because I'm going to be asking them to help me fix something that I think needs to be repaired in West Virginia. That's just the way I approach the whole process of public service. I'm there to say, yes, I want to help you. Yes, I can help you. And if I can't, I want to tell you what it would take for me to help you. So when they come to me and they say, joe, can you sign onto this, let me read the bill you want or the amendment? And I'd do that, and my staff would look at it and they'd give it back to me. And they said, you know, this doesn't really do exactly what you were told that your fellow colleague told you that. And I would say, okay, I got it. And I said, so, okay. So I'd go back and I'd say, david, if you could allow me to make a few adjustments, addendums to this, and few changes, uh, and if I could do that and give it back to you, uh, and see if you agree with that, then we could do this together, and it would be very good. You're going to give me one of two answers. You're going to say, joe, I'm sorry, I can't change anything in the bill. What you're telling me in a nice way is this is a political statement I'm making. I'd love to have you on it to show that it's bipartisan, uh, but I've got to make this political statement. And I would say, david, I understand where you're coming from, but when you really are serious about trying to pass this, please come to me because I want to help you.

Speaker B: Was there a particular person that was the hardest to get to that end game with or was just Basically everybody.

Speaker C: Ted Cruz is pretty rough. He was good. He's very smart, very good. But I like Ted, I worked with Ted. But he put you through it. He was very, very good at presenting something that sounded so wonderful, that everyone should be motherhood and apple pie. The. But then it was maybe had a little twist to it. You had to figure out what the twist was and work your way around it or through it or not at all. So different things. But I'm saying it was a good challenge. But he's just a good legislator. He's a very good legislator.

Speaker B: You've talked about it. Right now our country politically is so divided, and people vote for their party, uh, not necessarily for what's good for our country. And it's a challenge. And as a result of that, so many people that I talk to, you know, are, are futile. You know, they're just so frustrated. And I always say that I think if we had a president that, that, that came at it, uh, where knew how to really bring two sides together, we could actually get this country turned around and working together again. And everybody tells me, David, bs, you know, it's just not going to happen. We're too far down the path. You know, I said. But I think you're underestimating the power of what a leader can do. What do you think about that, Joe? I mean, people have asked you to run for president. You know, do you think you could do it?

Speaker C: Two things you have, David. You know, you have to believe in yourself first. And you have to believe if you were put in the right place, how would you evaluate? Well, in public service, wherever you're put into, whether it's a, uh, local job, a state job, a mayor or a state legislator or governor or a senator or congressperson, you have to know your district, know your state, know what your purpose is. Well, the first thing is, uh, any leader, you better figure out what are the most vulnerable points that you have within the job you're going to be taking. So if it's governor, what's the greatest threat the people in West Virginia would face? I want to make sure that there's floods, if there's some types of things that could destroy their lives, mining accidents. We had everything. You've got to make them better. You've got to make it safer and basically take care of the people. And then, uh, you better, if you have a mandate, you got elected, people believed in you, you better take on the toughest subject there is to help your state prosper and do better. And with that, that means you don't waste a mandate and you better be able to handle a crisis. If you can't handle both of those and prepare yourself for a mandate to do the tough thing or a crisis to handle the hard thing, then you're not deserving of the job. So whether it be the President of the United States or whether it be a leadership executive position as governor of the state, that's what you have to have. And, ah, all CEOs have that. The people that rise to the top are able to just, uh, assemble, basically, and look at dissection, what, what kind of company they have, what's the purpose, what's the goal, how they achieve it? Boom, boom, boom.

Speaker B: But can a president today change bring people together, do you think? It's possible? Because right now people have given up. A lot of people that are very smart have given up.

Speaker C: Yeah, they've given up to the point where they say the system is basically, it's fraught with money. So can you get control of the money again? Can you? The Citizens United? Can we reverse that? Can the legislature do it upon themselves? They won't. We're going to have to go to the referendum of the people in every state in order to change. Because there's enough good people of good sense, of common sense of, uh, how they have to run their lives. They expect to be represented that way in Washington. They're not getting it from here. If you wanted to put limits on how much money could be spent in the campaign, it won't be done from the people that are benefiting by. It'll be done by the people outside watching. Why is so bad? And they given up. And I said that. So you have that first. How come so many people can't even vote in primaries? Because the parties have shut it down. So open the primaries up. Let, uh, people run in the primaries not because they have all the money in the world or because they're, well, politically connected, but, uh, because they might be the best of character and have the smartest ability to lead, get, get more people in that. So we're not getting the best of the best. That's our problem. And that's by design. And I've asked people, do you believe you have the right to vote because you're a US Citizen or because you belong to a party? They'll all tell me, because I'm a US Citizen. I says, then you're absolutely wrong because the party is picking you. You're not picking the candidate. They're giving you who you're going to vote. For and the primaries. You only have about 17% of the people that show up in primaries anymore. And the primaries are controlled. They've shut them down. You can't vote as an independent. There's so many states you can't even get on. Go vote. If you wanted to vote, you have to join a party. I don't want to be in a party. I want to be flexible and work with the best ideas of both parties. They don't want that. So that has to change it. And it can be changed, but it won't be done if you're allowing Congress or your legislature. It'll be done by referendums, by people starting a referendum in their state. And once you get so many states that basically can pass a federal, national, uh, referendum, then it's forced for a vote. Then we want to find out who are the. Who are the people you sent to Washington? Are they representing you or representing themselves?

Speaker B: You know, this has been so much fun and interesting, and I want to have some more with, uh, my lightning round of questions here. So are you ready for this? What three words best describe you?

Speaker C: Looking for the best.

Speaker B: If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?

Speaker C: I thought about Neil Armstrong. I loved stepping on that moon.

Speaker B: What's your biggest pet peeve?

Speaker C: Not getting things accomplished. Not accomplishing what I tend to do.

Speaker B: Who would play you in a movie?

Speaker C: Maybe Jon Hand.

Speaker B: What do most people not know about life on a houseboat?

Speaker C: How rewarding it is and how relaxing being on the water? I think that we're, as John Kennedy said, most of our body, the water in our body, uh, you know, and is it the same as, uh, what we have and being around water just the most calming effect, I think, no matter what waking up in the morning and looking at it when you go to bed. Water. Just as calming.

Speaker B: What's something that you've been curious about lately, Joe, that has nothing to do with work?

Speaker C: Um, I'm curious about AI, where AI is going to take us. And I'm wondering if we're going to put any guardrails on that'll protect humankind.

Speaker B: One word that defines great leadership?

Speaker C: Compassion.

Speaker B: What's the one thing you do just for you?

Speaker C: Dream.

Speaker B: Besides your friends and family, what's your most prized possession?

Speaker C: A home to gather. Gathering place.

Speaker B: If I turned the radio on in your houseboat, what would I hear?

Speaker C: The oldies.

Speaker B: What's something about you that few people would know?

Speaker C: I'm, um, a clean freak.

Speaker B: What's one of your daily rituals? Something that you never Miss, I think

Speaker C: in the morning, just having my coffee and first thing in the morning and reading three papers in the morning every morning.

Speaker B: All right, we're out of the lightning round. Great job. Just a few more questions and I'll let you go. You know, I gotta ask you this because this is a great leadership moment in our country right now. You know, what's your take on what we're doing in Iran and how we're handling it from a leadership perspective?

Speaker C: Well, first of all, you know, we're taught when you first get, especially on armed services, you got four countries of concern that are never going to have our backs at all. That's going to be Russia, China, Iran, North Korea. They all have nuclear, uh, capabilities. So, uh, how we become so dependent upon China's beyond me. We messed up that one royally. And the men in the wto, Russia, you never turn your back on Russia. They're never going to be for you. And I can't understand why president is so cajoled up to them. And on the other hand, uh, with Iran right now, we've known since 1979, this is a regime, uh, uh, and a regime change can't be changed because it's an ideology. Um, it's who they are, it's what they believe. And, um, that's not going to be changed. And for us to allow them to be the greatest terrorists on the face of the earth the world has ever known, terrorist supporters of all the different satellites they have with Hezbollah, the Houthis, Hamas, um, and if we don't stop that. So I do not fault the president from going in, targeting their capability. I would have hoped that there would have been more input, would have been more buy in from other nations, more buy in from the legislature knowing what was going in, the threats that we were facing, and why it was so important to neutralize Iran, we'd have had more people helping this. We could have kept the straits of Hermos open. All those things would have been a lot easier to accomplish than trying to go it alone. And basically, when you go it alone, sooner or later there's going to be a bigger guy on the block that says they don't have any help coming. The cavalry is not going to come and try to help save them. So we'll take them on now. So those things worry me a little bit about that. Can we turn that around? Yes. I'm praying for the present to open up and rekindle the friendships we have with our NATO allies. Purpose of NATO was not to have a third World war, making sure that the Gulf states, the Arab states over there start taking leadership of their neighbors who are bad neighbors, like Iran. It's not going to be a gentile country or a Jewish country come in and run Iran, but it could be the Arab, uh, states over there, you know, uae, Saudis Emirates, um, uh, uh, all of them. And I would hope that that would be done. So I'm concerned we better start putting basically a rational approach to how we do it. My thing is they cannot pull out until we get that, those nuclear, uh, the enriched uranium. Now if that's the case and we find out there's no enriched uranium the same way we found out there's no weapons of mass destruction. You know, we heard about that and that's the reason we went to war in Iraq. We unstabilized that whole part of the world because of that. Uh, I hope that's not the case here. And if there is, I hope we stay the course until we are able to secure all the enriched uranium, to make sure they can't do horrific damage to people. Now they're, they've already shown their intent and you cannot work with him. It's hard to make a deal with him because you're fighting a regime, an ideology, and the IRG is not backing down. That's not, there's no give up there. And their greatest reward is when you kill them.

Speaker B: That's a tough negotiation. Be kind of hard to go in there and ask them if they play golf or not.

Speaker C: Well, you know, that's. How do you negotiate with someone. And the same in Afghanistan. I was over there a few times when I was governor with our troops and people that live in mud huts or caves have no quality of life at all. And they believe the greatest reward is Allah, you know, embracing them. And they have nothing to fear, they have nothing to lose. So that's what we're dealing with. And once you do that, how do you manage it? They better figure a way to manage it. And I think it's going to be the Arab countries that can help manage that better than what we ever could. And that's what I'm hoping is, um, done. But I don't see us backing out anytime. And I'm hoping the President opens up his arms and brings Canada back in the fold, brings all of Europe back in the fold, bring our NATO allies back into the fold. We need them, they need us. We have the same desires of a freedom, freedom loving people that want the light, the liberty that gives us and those other countries Aren't going to give

Speaker B: that, you know, shifting gears here. Uh, you know, you've. You and you've been married to your wife gail for nearly 60 years. What's been your philosophy or approach to leading at home?

Speaker C: Oh, uh, I really. I've been. When I say leading at home, my wife. I've been more of a failure. Public life takes that away from you, the time that's needed. So the time that you're there better be quality time. You got to catch yourself trying to. The few small amount of time you're able to be home. And all you're doing is reprimanding everybody. That doesn't work. So if it wasn't for my wife being the. Being the anchor that she has been, we would not have had, I believe, the quality of family that we have now. Because I was always. When, uh, I was 35 and the kids were very young, I was gone all the time. And I've been gone ever since. And it's just. But they've been able to accept it, to understand it, and I've always tried to make sure they were part of it. It's a difficult situation. There are some sacrifices to be made. You better have a strong partner, spouse or partner that understands and can pick up the slack because they need guidance. And you gotta always be there for the important time. Uh, just put it that way, Joe.

Speaker B: You've accomplished so much. What do you see as your unfinished business?

Speaker C: I still believe that we can correct what we see wrong in a political. I'm ashamed. All the people I know, all the good people still in the Senate, my friends up there, they know better. They know better. They need to say, uh, what's my purpose of being here? I'm not going to vote for that. And I have to tell the president, maybe. Mr. President, I'm so sorry. I can't support that. And I know all hell's going to come down on me, but this is a very small price to pay knowing I've done the right thing for my country. If they can come to that conclusion, I can tell you, you will help the president and help his administration be a much better leader than just thinking they can force people by their will. And, uh, that means that the three separations of power, the judicial, right now, the legislative is just about rolled over. And you can't tell the difference between legislative and executive now because they're all bonded as one. The House is Republican, the Senate's Republican, and the executive branch is Republican. And there's no checks and balances. Well, The Senate was always the check and balance. We didn't expect the House to be. They're going to be always with. If they're majority, uh, Democrats and the president's majority Democrat, they're going to be there. Okay. Even if it was a Democrat Senate, I didn't think that the president was always right or we should always bear because of the party, should be because of the issues. And they've lost that. And I'm praying to God that we can bring that back at independent and the senators especially to say, I'm so sorry, I cannot support that you. Because I think there's a better way to do it all.

Speaker B: Uh, right, last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

Speaker C: I just think that the other side's not always wrong. You know, if you're involved and it's in your heart to serve, then public service has to be, how can I help? That means not just help yourself or help the people you represent. How can you help other people that you need to work with? Because those are the ones you're gonna actually help. You. You can't go to lone in this game. If you think you can be the Lone Ranger in a political, uh, arena that we have today, then you better find another horse to ride, because it ain't going to be the Lone Ranger. That ain't not going to happen. And with that, there's enough good people that came here for the right reason. You have to seek them out. Doesn't take long to figure out who came here to put the country first before the party.

Speaker B: So, you know, Joe, you've had many, many people come to you and ask you to run for president. Uh, why haven't you stepped up and done that? I mean, I'm going to give you the pitch you gave the guy who didn't take your job. You know, I mean, you know, you called him up and said, hey, what are you doing these days? Is there anything that could be more important than doing what you just said?

Speaker C: I'll tell you one thing. If I could have got on 50 ballots, if I could have got on all 50 ballots, I'd have been out there, I'd have been swimming, I'd have been able to say, listen, I'm going to give it the best shot. I've got to try to bring some commonality and bring some sensibility to this process that we have is so convoluted now. And if I had people, if I'm. If I was in the middle here and I'm debating and you got a hard D and a hard R fighting for their position. I said, guess what? I agree with both of you on many things and I disagree on a lot of things with both of you. But together, my goodness, if I can get you working together, we're going to do a lot of good things for our country right now. You know, you're never going to have that because the other side thinks that my ideas are better. You know, I've never had a campaign I was ever in, David, that I didn't learn something from the other side. I'd be in a debate and I'd have to call the person after that. Maybe I won the election. I won many elections. So I'd call the person and say, you know, that was a great idea you had and we were debating, can you help me with that? And they'd be surprised and we'd build up a relationship.

Speaker B: Well, Joe, I have to tell you, I've enjoyed this conversation, uh, immensely. Uh, you know, it's great to see someone with the kind of conviction you have and the passion that you have to make our country better. And I want to thank you so much, much for taking the time.

Speaker C: My biggest thing, David, right now, if I can convince, if I can basically help educate the people of America on how they can be proud of their government, how they can be proud of the people that are representing them, it's by changing how you elect them. That's the first thing. Changing the amount of money's in the process is not the money that's buying the election, it's the people making the decisions of, uh, who do you want to represent you? And when people start redrawing all these new, uh, these lines for Congress, you know, these are redistricting and everything because gerrymandering, uh, that's not what Thomas Jefferson put all that together so that we would have like minded people representing like minded people. So I would pick someone. If I'm in an agricultural area, I could find someone who I knew understood agriculture. But you can if you just, if I'm just looking for votes here and there's. The whole process has been placed, plagued by the Democrat and Republican process that we have. And go back to the founding fathers, they were concerned about this. They were very much concerned that this would happen and only us can correct it. That means the citizens of our country who live under the freedom and the liberty that comes with it, we have to liberate ourselves from the bonds of these two parties that are destroying Us.

Speaker B: All right, well, let's pray that happens. Thank you very much.

Speaker C: Work on it. We have to work on it.

Speaker B: Thanks, Joe.

Speaker C: Thank, uh, you, David. Appreciate it.

Speaker A: Well, David, I don't know of a better guest to kick off the July 4th weekend than Joe Manchin. Happy 250th to America.

Speaker B: Yeah. What a great celebration. I can't wait for this fourth of July.

Speaker A: It's so interesting, David. We rarely have government leaders on the show, but at a time like this, when our world feels so divided, it was really, um, refreshing to hear Joe talk about his deep desire to find common ground among people that just feel so far apart right now. And regardless of where you sit with your political beliefs, I think that everybody can take away, um, some really, really tremendous insights from your conversation with Joe. And I am excited, David, to get your take on some of the themes that I pulled out from episode as you two were talking.

Speaker B: And the reason why we don't have government leaders on this show is that the world is so darn divisive.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, I mean, and that divisiveness is not something I really want to mess with. And because I want this show to be something that people look at in the most positive sense. And the reason why Joe was on the show was that, you know, he's been known for being an independent, you know, trying to understand both sides and then ultimately making, uh, the best decision that he's. He's capable of. And, uh, the fact that he was independent is the reason why he's on the show. And I don't think I'm gonna be having a whole lot more. Don't come writing letters on the show. And that's no slam against him. He's just not the typical government leader, and that's why he's on the show.

Speaker A: Well, he's certainly gifted at, uh, finding common ground, which is the first kind of theme that I want to get your take on. David, obviously, he has a unique way of bringing people together, and that's a skill that is critical to every leader. So I'm curious, David, if you have a story of when you had significantly opposing viewpoints on your team, how did you find common ground and bring the team together so that they could keep moving forward?

Speaker B: Well, first of all, I think you got to do a lot of work before you have the divisiveness. Okay. And that means you need to know the people that you work with on a personal basis. You need to know what they like to do. Like, I love Joe talking about how before he started any meeting, he tried to understand what people were into, whether it was golf or fishing or whatever, just so that you could show each other that you're human. Okay? You both have different interests, that you both have things that are outside of work, that you're a person. And I think once people see you as a person and know that you see them as a person, that creates a human ground that provides a good basis for any kind of, uh, uh, productive, um, discussion. One of the big challenges I had in business was always working with our franchisees. The franchisees, uh, would oftentimes view the, the company people to be corporate. And, you know, all we wanted to do was drive up sales so that we could, we could take it, uh, you know, we could make money on, on the franchise fees, which were tied to sales growth. And, and you know, they didn't think we really cared necessarily about, you know, their profitability. And, and those were misconceptions. Okay? So I think in situations like that, you want to level the playing field by talking about how you understand each other and each other's needs and how you can win together. For example, the single biggest way we could drive your profits as a franchisees was to grow your sales because the flow through on every incremental sales dollar was at least 40%. And that's how you drive profitability. But letting people know that that's why you make the decisions, I think really creates a common ground that you're in this for as a win win. And I actually created, uh, a franchise pact at Young Brands. We had, we called it a partnership pact. And we talked about the company would do this and the franchisee would do this and, and that would be one plus one equals three. And we had like 10 things that we wrote down that we were committed to and we did that together. And you know, that was something that we referred to, uh, as we made decisions. So I think finding common ground that way is really, really great. But one exercise I did in terms of just, uh, getting to know the human side of everything is before we'd start meetings or we'd have big meetings where everybody come together and, and they might not know each other. We'd take time out and you'd be sitting next to somebody and we'd say, tell that person three things about you that, uh, m. Make you, you. Okay? And you know, people would share. And I think that that just kind of breaks down all kinds of barriers. And I think the human side does that more than anything.

Speaker A: It's so interesting how quickly we Forget that all of us are human beings first. It's so easy to get caught up in your role or your title or your political party. But remembering that you're dealing with other human beings who might have similar interests to you outside of work or outside of politics is such a good level set. And I love Joe talking in the episode about how when he invites folks on his houseboat, how he gets everybody to kind of loosen up and really get to know the human side of each other before they actually start talking business. And I would love to be a fly on the wall on Joe's houseboat when he has some of those conversations, because there's no telling what goes on. David, the next topic that was really interesting to me, that stood out from this episode is this idea of changing your mind. Joe says in the episode, if we can't change our minds, we can't change anything. And that really resonated with me because so often leaders hesitate to change their minds. Cause maybe they're afraid they're gonna lose face or lose credibility. So I'm curious, from your perspective, what coaching would you offer someone who is afraid to change their mind even when they know they should?

Speaker B: I think that people often are very hesitant to change their mind because they think that shows weakness, that, you know, it'll show their people that they really weren't convicted about what they felt. But, yeah, but, uh, that's crazy. I mean, you know, you need to change your mind when you have a reason to change your mind. And, uh, that's what I would tell everybody. If you find a reason that's legitimate for you to change your mind, change your mind and just tell everybody why you did it. I think the worst thing you could do is change your mind and not tell people why. Let people know that you're changing your mind and why. And I think they'll, they'll, they'll understand it. And then they can also give you their point of view if they think you're changing your mind for the wrong reason or going the wrong direction. But just let people know why you're doing what you're going to do. A lot of times leaders just don't do that. So, you know, a, be humble enough to change your mind if facts basically tell you you should. Okay. And, and, and then B, when you change your mind, make sure people understand why.

Speaker A: In Joe's position, he might have, you know, one of the toughest positions in the world.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker A: When it comes to the ability to change your mind and have people understand that. I feel like in politics, you know, it's just what you said. If you change your mind, then people see you as weak or not convicted enough to be a great leader or what have you. And that sort of thought is bringing me to my final kind of place point that I want to make, David, and get your feedback on. And it's this concept of government leadership. I mean, we talk a lot about, you know, we want to make the world a better place by developing better leaders at every stage of life and in every industry. And, um, I think that's especially true when we talk about government leadership. And because of all of the nuances of our world today, that's really hard. If you could snap your fingers, David, and give one leadership trait to everyone in Washington, what would that leadership trait be and why?

Speaker B: I think the leadership trait would be to do the right thing. Do what you think is right, and the right things will happen. The problem that I think we have in politics is people get so deeply entrenched in the side that they're supposed to represent. Many times people forget about what's right. There's gotta be a way to solve a lot of the problems that we have in this world. I mean, immigration being one for sure. I mean, there's just, you know, there's gotta be a path to citizenship for people who deserve that. Right? And we all know that they're out there. And I believe both Democrats and Republicans know that. But people are so entrenched in the stereotypical, uh, Democratic and Republican view that that problem still exists. And that's a tough thing. So I'd say do the right things and the right things that will happen and tackle the tough issues together. Not with a perspective that you're going to. That's always going to be locked in, but do it with an open mind

Speaker A: and find common ground. I mean, to the first kind of theme that we talked about. Remember that we're all humans here, and for the most part, I think we all want basically the same thing. So I feel like understanding that the end goal for all of us is kind of the same thing. We just got to figure out how we all get there together, right?

Speaker B: And this is the greatest country in the world. We have a lot of great people focused on making it a better country, you know, that are in government. You know, they're, you know, want to thank everybody that. That is, you know, dedicating their time and effort to. To really make that happen. And, you know, yeah, we have our faults, but I wouldn't go anywhere else. Um, but I think One thing that I've always love about our country is we always try to make things better, and we're always trying to take it to the next level. And, you know, I have a lot of confidence that, that we will.

Speaker A: So, David, as we wrap this episode, what are the things that you really want people walking away thinking about?

Speaker B: I think, number one, it's really important to find common ground if you really want to tackle, uh, significant issues and just get the most out of, out of your people or your organization. Number two, be humble enough to change your mind and just make sure when you do, people know why you did it so that you keep your credibility and, uh, and, and your integrity. Uh, and then the third thing is, is that, you know, uh, no matter whether you're in government or you're on the corporate world or you have your startup or you're in a nonprofit, just, just focus on doing the right thing. And, um, when you do the right thing, the right things happen.

Speaker A: Well, David, with that, I will wish you a, ah, very happy Fourth of July weekend. Stay safe out there. Happy 250th America. Thanks, Joe Manchin for joining us for this show, and of course, thank you to our listeners. Tune in again next Thursday and we will see you soon.