Migrating your audience online, with Laura Pashby

Speaker A: This is Authentic, a podcast for creatives, dreamers and entrepreneurs online. I'm your host, Sarah Tasker, uh, a certified coach specializing in creative business and all things related to social media and the digital realm. This is episode 122. Hi. Welcome back. My plan for the podcast is to keep dropping episodes like this kind of ad hoc when I have someone who I really want to talk to or bring to you. Um, share with you, I suppose. And so thank you for being here. Thank you for staying subscribed. Hopefully it makes you smile when you see there's a new episode dropping into your podcast feed or inbox. And today I am, um, talking with someone who is such a long overdue guest. She is someone who I first met back in the golden old days of Instagram and I've loved watching her creativity flow and evolve since then. And she's just an awesome human being who I know you're going to love. So we talk a lot about that. We talk about how Instagram has changed, what there is still to love about it, how she's using it now versus back then. And of course, we also talk about my current favourite platform, substack. I couldn't put this out without also mentioning that my class for substack called the Substack Soiree is on sale right now. We're starting next week. It is five weeks of loving, nurturing guidance with a real focus on establishing a platform and a community that represents the heart of whatever it is you're about. So we have weekly co writing calls, we have a setup call where it will take you through all the branding and settings that you want to set up behind the scenes. We have weekly Q and A calls and prompts and guidance, everything to take you from the very beginning of setting up your substack, all the way to getting paid and beyond. It is such a beautiful community. There are, ah, already so many amazing people signed up. We have therapists and coaches and we have artists and makers, writers, photographers, and people who don't yet even know what they're going to be. But they know that they want to start showing up and sharing more of themselves online and they want to do it in a way that feels authentic and true. So if that sounds like your jam, if they sound like your people, we'd love to have you join us. The link is in the show notes or you can just search for the Substack soiree. We would just love to have you with us. And on a related note, I am running a free open to everyone co writing Call. It's going to be this Friday, so that's the 2nd of May at 11:30. British summertime, I think. Yes, we're in British summertime. I'll pop the link for that in the show notes too, so you can just come along. And the aim of the session is to get you past your creative blocks, to get you writing, and to surprise you with what you can do within an hour. Free to join, no pressure to turn your camera on. Do come along if that's interesting to you. Um, I run those from time to time throughout the year, so if you want something like that in your life, make sure you're on my email list and you will get updates whenever they're available. Okay, that's the end of my sales pitch. Let's catch up with Laura. Hi, Laura. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Hi, Sarah. So lovely to talk to you.

Speaker A: So lovely to talk to you. This is something you and I do not often enough, but there's these moments where you and I will meet in a cafe or a restaurant somewhere and talk about everything and then not talk again for a couple of years.

Speaker B: But that's fine. I think. I think we know that, you know, if we haven't spoken for a while, next time we speak, we'll have plenty to say, so.

Speaker A: Exactly. It's the hallmark of a good friendship, I always think.

Speaker B: It definitely is.

Speaker A: So, for anyone who has not yet met you or maybe hasn't quite realized who they're listening to, could you give us a quick introduction to who you are and what you do?

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Um, so my name's Laura Pashby. Um, I'm a author and, um, a photographer. Um, I've written two books called, um, Little Stories of your life and Chasing Fog. Um, if you're on social media, you'll probably know me as Circle of Pines, which I am. Um, on, um, pretty much all the social platforms. Um, and I also write on Substack, too.

Speaker A: Amazing. Um, and you and I met back in the day on old Instagram.

Speaker B: We did. I think we met in person at, uh, a Bowdoin press day. Does that sound right? They were so good.

Speaker A: That does sound right. And, uh, I feel like we've been riding the waves together ever since.

Speaker B: Definitely. I actually, when you said, when did we first meet? I'm thinking I can't actually remember being on the Internet without knowing you. But we're not being on Instagram without knowing you. But there must have been a time.

Speaker A: There must have been in the. Yeah, we've repressed those days. How did you get started from where you were back then to now owning it and calling yourself a photographer and writer. I'm curious, like, what that journey was like.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because there definitely comes a point where you go, okay, I'm going to say the words. It took me a long time. Yeah. So, um, I started, uh, with a blog back in, I think it would be about 2010 because it was shortly after my, um, middle son was born. Um, and I had a craft blog is how I started, um, a transatlantic craft blog. So my best friend lived in Washington D.C. and we used to write each other letters on the blog, um, about what we were knitting and about what we were crocheting and about what we were making. Um, and I'd always been sort of interested in photography. I used, um, to use the darkroom, um, a lot at school and at university, but I hadn't really done any for years and years. But then I picked up my camera again because I was taking photos for this blog. Um, and I must have joined Instagram a little bit after that, a couple of years after that. And I don't really know what made me decide to do it, but I guess it's just what everyone was doing.

Speaker A: I think it was the filters that we all joined for originally.

Speaker B: No, you're absolutely right. Yes, it was, it was the filters. Um, and I had absolutely no idea what I was doing at all. Um, I was sharing pictures of sort of just, yeah, a lot of knitting and cups of tea and things that I was doing. Um, and then actually I entered a competition run by Kat Goldin. Um, do you remember Kat Golden? Yeah. And um, Kat Molesworth. And it was a photography competition for taking photos of your children. Um, and so you had to sort of share photographs to your Instagram, I think, and then put in a hashtag. Um, so I took some pictures of my kids. I didn't then and I still don't now, um, share my kids faces online. But I, you know, I was taking photos from behind and their feet and all this sort of thing. Anyway, um, and the prize for this competition, which I amazingly won M was, um, they were doing a photography course where they sort of took you right through, um, how to use a camera manual, which I'd completely forgotten, even though I had once known how to do it. Um, and that sort of kickstarted me, uh, into taking lots more photos and sort of really improving my photography. And then, um, at some point, I can't remember when it was, um, Instagram used to do this thing, as, you know, called a suggested user, where they would recommend your account to other accounts for a couple of weeks. Um, and so that happened to my account and it did sort of kick it forwards in terms of numbers. Um, so I ended up with. I can't remember how many followers it was. 30,000, something like that, which, you know, felt like a lot all of a sudden. Um, and so I guess suddenly I had an audience. You know, I'd had a bit of an audience on the blog, but not a very big one. Um, and, yeah, I mean, the Internet did its magic, I suppose. It's that thing where people start to find your work and see what you're doing. Um, and then quite a lot of years later. So in, uh, 2019, just, actually, just before. Just before lockdown, um, I sent a book proposal to an agent. Um, and actually, I mean, it was the sort of Friday before my children's school shut, so I sent it off and I genuinely just forgot about it and just thought, oh, well, I've got two other things to worry about now. Um, but actually, I then got an email back saying, yes, um, we'd like you to write this book. So then I wrote my first book, um, in lockdown at 6am Mostly while everyone else was asleep. Yeah. And then my second book, Chasing Fog, came out, um, at the end of August. So quite recently. That's a very long answer.

Speaker A: Beautiful answer. M. I'm really curious. I think people listening will be curious about how you leveraged that. You got to about 30,000 followers and then in the story you just told us, you just sent a pitch one day a few years later.

Speaker B: Yeah, okay. I condensed it a bit. So 30,000 followers was probably the point at which I met you at a Bowdoin press day, because that is the point at which I did start doing a bit of work with brands on Instagram, Um, and then through that, started pitching a bit of stuff to magazines. And then actually the other thing, sort of in between, um, the book proposal and the sort of 30,000 followers was, um, I did. I did, um. Um, a little E course called Little. I think. Was it called Little Stories of your life? It's very similar title, anyway, which was about storytelling. Um, and that. So it was kind of from that that I thought, oh, actually, maybe this could be a book. Because I. You know what, What I've always wanted to do is write the books. Um, I just took a very strange kind of strange kind of route to get there.

Speaker A: But I think that's a really, like. I actually think There's a really important lesson for everyone in this because you, you used it to create leverage to do what you wanted to do.

Speaker B: Yes. And actually, um, yeah, I mean, in many ways I would say I have Instagram to thank for being able to do what I want to do. Because, you know, you do. Unfortunately, um, if you are writing a book proposal, uh, it really helps, uh, to have an audience that you can sort of, you know, uh, pitch that to. And I should say, um, the other part of the story. In between, uh, teaching the course online and sending the book proposal to the agent, I did, um, Beth Kempton's book proposal masterclass, which is an online course, which is so, so good. Um, and so if anyone has a sort of non fiction book idea, I, yeah, hugely recommend that because, um, before I did her course I had this very vague idea and by the time I'd finished her course, I had a proposal that I sent to an agent and got a kind of positive response.

Speaker A: That's a wonderful recommendation. And you take a lot of online courses. I know this about you. Yes. So when you recommend one, we know it's good.

Speaker B: It definitely is. Yeah, I strongly recommend it. Um, and actually when I was writing my second book proposal for my second book, I sort of went back to the notes I'd taken and kind of reread them and. Yeah. So, um, and actually Beth now is on substack and has a really, um, amazing sort of community on substack.

Speaker A: I spoke to her about it recently, actually.

Speaker B: Oh, did you? Oh, there you go. So, yeah, strong recommendation from me.

Speaker A: For someone who is, let's say there's someone who's listening, who is building their audience on something like Instagram right now and, um, wanting to evolve that into something offline or into some other kind of creative avenue with their work. What steps would you recommend? What do you think are the important things to make sure you're doing?

Speaker B: I mean, obviously your audience already know this, but, um, for building your Instagram audience, your courses are amazing. And I've taken those too, so.

Speaker A: Thank you. That wasn't why I was asking.

Speaker B: I promise that very much so. Um, I think if you're trying to. Yeah, I think the sort of transferring the audience from one kind of. I mean, there's this, there's the kind of, um, people who will follow you from one platform to another. So if you are on Instagram and then you say, I'm writing on substack, you know, some people will go across and want to sort of follow your writing elsewhere. Ah, um, but there are also, I think, people who, who, if, if they're following you on Instagram, they really just want to see the same images and reels and the same thing. And I do. I do think I've had to sort of accept that, actually, you know, there's only a certain percentage of my Instagram audience who are going to be interested in things that I do outside of Instagram. Um, and I think actually you have to just keep talking about it until you bore yourself. Because, um, people don't see everything that you post, do they? So they don't see all your stories, they don't see all your posts, they don't see all your reels. And you kind of have to find different ways of saying, this is what I'm doing, and maybe you'd be interested in it.

Speaker A: That's so true. It's so true. And I think there is an art, uh, to the kind of content that it takes on Instagram to make people invested in you enough to come to another platform.

Speaker B: So, m. If.

Speaker A: Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker B: I think, um, I do think that I had to sort of adjust my mindset a little bit. Um, because in the kind of, you know, the golden days of Instagram when there was very fast growth and, you know, you could sort of predict how a post was going to do with your audience. Um, and obviously it doesn't feel like that now. But also I had to kind of, um, make peace with the fact that actually it was at this stage, it is more important to me to have an audience who are interested in what I actually do and what I want to talk to them about, which maybe isn't what I was doing when they first followed me. Um, than it is to have a massive audience who just want to see, you know, the same things from me that aren't maybe what I want to spend my time creating.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, that's so important. And that's it. Like, you can play the game. Everyone stumbles across something sooner or later that gives their reels ten times the view count of their normal content. And there's something to be said for leaning into that as a strategy and going, I'll just keep doing, like, I don't know, agar cleaning videos or whatever it is. Um, but if that's not really what you're looking to build, then it's only m going to have so much leverage. And do people who follow you for aga cleaning videos necessarily want to read a substack from you? Probably not, but the people who are there in smaller number, but for everything, build a much more connected relationship with you.

Speaker B: Definitely much more meaningful. And, um, and also, you know, there does come a point where, as you say, if you found one thing that works really well, you. You do get to the point where you think, actually, I do want this to be a sort of creative. So, you know, I'm not going to stop posting the thing that works well. But also, you want to be able to post things that kind of, you know, speak to you creatively and inspire you. And I think sometimes you just have to go, okay, this is not, you know, the algorithm's not going to like it as much or people aren't going to see it as much, but hopefully this will speak to the right people for me, I guess.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, I try and talk about it and think about it even for myself, as outreach posts, which are the ones that I'm deliberately, strategically thinking this will reach new people and then the rest of the time nurture posts where it's like, this won't. And I'm not expecting it to, but I'm really thinking of my core people here who are with me. Um, and I think showing up with those different goals in mind helps.

Speaker B: Definitely. Because then also, um, you don't feel too discouraged. I've definitely found that with launching a book, which, you know, for better or worse, I have had to talk a lot about, um, because, you know, you have to promote what you're doing, especially when you really, um, believe in it. But there are certainly some posts where I'll do a sort of carousel of, you know, here are. Here are things I've been doing, here are bookshops I've visited and this, that and the other. And, you know, it doesn't do as well as some of my other content, but I just have to sort of remind myself that that's not. It's not there, as you say, to get new followers. It's there to sort of communicate to people who already follow me what it is that I'm doing. Yeah.

Speaker A: And the people who.

Speaker B: Your book.

Speaker A: You're doing a favor to them by telling them it exists.

Speaker B: Yes. And that, you know, in the end, you're sort of, um. Those are the people you're talking to, the people who really love what you've got to offer.

Speaker A: I suppose I'm sure I've told this story on the podcast before, but when my book came out, you know, in Amazon, you get a very rudimentary graph that shows you, uh, like sales.

Speaker B: Yeah. In the back office of Amazon. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I got access to that, and I could literally see the spikes, huge spikes, and trace it back to, like, oh, that's when I tweeted about my book. That's when I put it on Stories. That's when I did a grid post. Um, and so even though those posts on their own didn't necessarily do huge numbers on the platforms they were on, it does work. I don't know why I needed to learn that, but I did. Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's so encouraging then, isn't it? Because you just think, okay, I guess it's not all about the likes on the Instagram post. That's what we have to remind ourselves, was what I have to remind myself.

Speaker A: It's a really misleading metric, actually. And you never know who's reading. Like, you need one significant person to read that post to change your life. Um, and so if you got 100 likes, there's pretty good odds that there's someone interesting in your hundred.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so then you talked about this audience and inviting them over to Substack. When did you join Substack? How long have you been on now?

Speaker B: Well, uh, that is a good question. I think it's probably about two years. Uh, the short answer to this, Sarah, is when your podcast came out about Substack with Baristor, I listened to that and I thought, oh, gosh, okay, I don't really want to get involved with another platform, but I trust Sarah, and if she says it's a good idea, and I mean, absolutely, I'm so glad I did because, um, it's such a good place for writers. It's been. It's been brilliant. Um, so thank you.

Speaker A: Well, you're so welcome. Thank you for coming across. How has your experience been then, of bringing across your audience? Did you have an email list already?

Speaker B: Yes. So I had, um, I've got. My website is on Squarespace, so I had a email list that I was sending emails to via Squarespace. And I started off on Substack, sort of just treating like a blog writing just on Substack. But I fairly quickly realized that it was much more sensible just to move my existing email list over. So I did that. Um, and the growth on Substack is so much better than, um, the growth on. Well, than I've ever had with sort of an email list at all, or the blog, really. Um, because of the recommendations, I think, particularly.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think also because it's not like Gate kept. Like, you can read everything up front or at least a portion of everything up front, whereas with a newsletter, you can't you have to be on the list to see what you're going to get.

Speaker B: Yes, that's true. Yes. You can sort of try it out and think, do I like it?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, yeah. So, um, I don't know how long it took me to sort of work out my, um, sort of, um, uh, substack plan, such as it is. But now I have a. I do a monthly letter to my whole list. Um, and then I have some paid subscribers who receive a weekly, um, post.

Speaker A: And how have you found that whole process of monetizing and charging for your writing?

Speaker B: I think the fact that I'd already published a book made me feel sort of in my head better about charging for my writing because I kind of felt like, um, I'd already done that in a way. Um, and what has been. What was brilliant, actually for me is that strangely, um, having to write a sort of committing to write a weekly post, some of which are quite short, some of which are very long, actually really helped me with the writing of my second book. Because even though the things that I were writing about were different, there's something about, you know, the more you're in the habit of writing, the. The more the writing flows.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And actually the thing I love about writing on Substack is that it's sort of completely my space and I can write however I want to. Um, and I don't mean that I don't like being edited when I'm writing because actually I love being edited. I really, really like working with editors and copy editors and I know not everybody, not everybody does, but I really like that. I love giving my work to someone and then it coming back better. Like, why would you not like that? And obviously on Substack you don't have that. But what I do find is that I'm a little bit sort of freer with the way I write. I don't overanalyze it too much. I sort of just let myself, especially in the paid posts, because it's obviously behind a, you know, behind a paywall. So not as many people are seeing it, I'm quite, um. A little bit more experimental and quite open and in a way that I maybe wouldn't be if I was writing elsewhere. Um, so I find it, yeah, I find it a really positive experience, um, from a sort of writer point of view, just the experience of. Of, yeah. Of sort of regularly committing to writing something. And sometimes, you know, sometimes I have no idea what I'm going to write until like, you know, the afternoon before or even the morning of, you know, and then I'll just go, right, I have to. I usually post at the same time, 10:30am on a Friday. I don't know why I've chosen that time. That is the time. Um, and sometimes I'll be like, you know, I've just got to write something and then sit down and it is amazing what sort of. What comes and, um. Yeah.

Speaker A: What sort of inspires from the depths and actually end up writing something you really love.

Speaker B: Yes. And I think, actually, I think I pay. I do think writing generally is as much about the sort of way that you move through the world as it is about the actual process of writing. And I think it's as much about sort of paying attention and really noticing things and sort of drawing connections between things. Um, and if, you know, you've got to write a post every week, it does make you pay attention because you're just thinking, right, what am I going to write? Yeah, you're just being sort of trying to be in the world in a kind of fairly present way because, um, you're sort of looking for meaning in it, I suppose.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's been one of the biggest struggles for me as I've become more limited with my health. The amount of living I do has really scaled back.

Speaker B: Yeah. That is really hard, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah. Because so much of what I used to write about would come from just conversations with friends or things I'd overhear in a cafe or things I'd be doing. And now those things are much, much less common in my life, unfortunately. And not as much inspiration comes from, like, sitting on the sofa, uh, on your own.

Speaker B: No, uh. You have to work so much harder, don't you, to. To find, um. Do you. You must have read. I'm, um, trying to remember her actual name. She's called Porridge Brain on social media. Yeah.

Speaker A: Josie. I can't remember her second name.

Speaker B: Her book, which I also can't remember the name of her memoir, is amazing. And it's very much about that because she has very complicated health situation and it's about that kind of, you know, finding inspiration in sort of, you know, potentially quite unlikely, very small things like Moss. She was writing about Moss the other week and just that really going small because I suppose it's. Yeah, you know, what you've got to do. But that's really tricky, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think the other piece of it for me is that I'm still in a place where I kind of reject this as my reality. So the obvious thing to do would be to write from this place and talk about this experience. But I'm like, I don't want to read that because I don't want to live it. Living. It's really boring. So I'm kind of in this messy. I'm just pouring this out to you. But I think it's useful for people to hear as well that, yes, it's so important. There are phases when you don't find it easy. And actually the discipline you're talking about, where you sit down and ask yourself to write anyway, is the way through it. It really is.

Speaker B: Yeah, I do think it is. And, um, I suppose, you know, if. If you're just writing it in a notebook, you know, it doesn't have to be on a substack or whatever. You know, even if you're just saying, I'm going to write a paragraph or I'm going to write a sentence, you know, it's that kind of, um, little bit like. And I have always, always failed at this. But a little bit like morning pages, isn't it, where you, you commit to the writing? Um. Uh, but I have to say I've never. I've tried many times to do the morning pages writing every day and I just. I can done.

Speaker A: I've done sprints of it.

Speaker B: I'm m. A sprinter.

Speaker A: Uh, it makes me too tired as well. It's too many pages.

Speaker B: It's a lot. It's a lot.

Speaker A: I need a mini version, but morning post it.

Speaker B: That's it. I think that's. I think that's a winner, actually.

Speaker A: Yeah. Quick copyright that.

Speaker B: Need to do it.

Speaker A: Um, in a funny way, then it's kind of like you've gone full circle and you're back to the blog.

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I don't know how you feel about it because you've had, um, I think more than one incarnation of blog in the past, haven't you? But I really feel like substack is like coming back to the blogging roots, but better. It's like all the things I loved about the blog. I loved having a, um, you know, the little blog rolled. Mine was a blogger blog. My first blog, the Blog Roll down the side. I loved that. And now obviously that's what the recommendations are. Um, and yeah, the people leaving comments and communicating in that way. Yeah, it's got all the stuff that I really liked about blogging. Um, but it's a much nicer user interface, I think. You know, the app or whether you read it in your. Inbox or on the app. I just think it feels very smooth and sort of nice to read.

Speaker A: And it also blogging used to be like you on your own tiny island out in the huge ocean of the Internet. And on Substack, it's kind of like we're all on the same continent. Because if you leave a comment, it links straight back to your own substack. And everything you do is kind of socially networking within the ecosystem of Substack.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you can quote other substacks, can't you? You can pop a little, um, piece from someone else's in and say, go and read this. This is really great. So there's a really lovely, I think, really lovely community element to it, um, which is really, really nice. And there is the Substack app, which I sort of have mixed feelings about because, um, even though I really like Substack Notes, which is essentially like Twitter, but for Substack, they probably don't like calling it that. That's what I call it. To me, um, I really like it. But then I also feel like, oh, gosh, this could end up, um, just really dragging me in and uh, you know, spending a lot of time on the notes and less time on the writing. So it's a bit of a balance.

Speaker A: You can change the app so it doesn't open on by default.

Speaker B: I think that's probably something I need to do.

Speaker A: Open it to your, like, subscribed posts instead. Yes.

Speaker B: Read some newsletters first. Yeah, um, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and we should say as well that although both you and I use Substack largely for writing, that it is also very much a platform for other types of creatives as well. And I've really seen them start to lean into that over the last 12 months and talk more about creators instead of writers.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Um, I actually think I, um, personally I only. I sort of in quite an old school blogging kind of way, just put one image at the start of my post and then it's almost always writing. Yeah. But there are some substacks that I do, um, follow, which are photographs and it works really well for photography. Um, and obviously people are, ah, using it for podcasts. Um, and there's also an amazing, um, substack that I love, um, which is by a musician called Matt, whose substack name is Fog Chaser. So you can see why he and I got. So we met via Instagram because I was talking about chasing Fog and his, um, his handle is Fogchaser. Um, and he's got amazing Substack and He's a musician and he shares his pieces of music. Um, and so actually when my book came out um, in August, he um, he composed a piece of music for me. So it was amazing. We did, we did this. He'd actually suggested it to me um, quite a lot earlier in the year and it sort of took us a while to um, put it all together. So it ended up being perfect for the book launch. But essentially I created a video which was um, a video of a walk in the fog. So it was me walking through the woods in the fog. Sort of lots of different um, parts of the woods and through the fields. And um, it was like you're kind of following me through the woods. Uh, and then I sent the video to him and he composed this beautiful, incredible piece of music especially for it. Ah. Um, which also has sort of ambient sounds from the. Um. He lives in Portland or near Portland and he had ambient sounds from the woods, you know, dripping and so, um, absolutely incredible. So we shared that on Substack and then also there is a pin to my Instagram, there's a sort of shorter video version of it. Um, but yeah, it was such an amazing um, creative collaboration because to me having someone compose a piece of music for my video is like an unbelievable honor. Absolutely, um, incredible. And it was so nice to, yeah. And to collaborate with someone who works in a completely different meet medium. Like that's amazing, isn't it? Um, and so, and substack that that work that was very easy to sort of to do to share the video and to do it as a sort of collaborative thing. Um, so I do think it's got. Substack has got great potential for kind of creative collaboration in quite um, open ended way actually. Um, but yes, very much recommend uh, the frog chaser substack for. Um, I will definitely link, I'm going

Speaker A: to find that video and link to it. Um, and I get like, let's just loop around for a minute back to Instagram and video because I do want to know what your strategy and feelings on reels are.

Speaker B: Uh, oh, I like that you think I have a strategy. That's very flattering. Um, I have to say when reels started I was a bit like, oh, this is going to go away. I'm just going to ignore it. If I pretend reels aren't happening, I won't have to make them. But as it turns out I was wrong about that.

Speaker A: There's still many people, I think in that phase, people listening to this are like, yep, yep, it's the waiting.

Speaker B: I'm holding on. I'm holding on. It's going to go away. No, it turns out not. Um, I think in as much as I have a strategy I think tend to treat reels or have done. I'm maybe changing a little bit, but I have for a long time I just sort of treated them as a, almost as a moving photograph. So I was doing quite short snippets of video, um, which was essentially something that I would ordinarily take a photo of often sort of me walking through the wizard fog. There's a lot of those, um, or like a window view or um, um, sort of something outside and then just a little bit of movement in it. Um, but I did actually recently have one of those calls with Instagram where um, they sort of give you a bit of advice and they said that you're. It should be sort of 30 to 90 seconds long. And I have not been doing 30 to 90 seconds long. So I have been trying um, to make them a little bit longer and potentially a little bit more um, narrative. And actually when I, when I started um, promoting my book, talking about my book, I was. I have tried to use reels to sort of m. Share the story of the book and give people a little bit of behind the scenes about the book. So I've been sharing things like um, books that I read for research. So sort of um. Yeah, to sort of give a bit of insight into that. And then you know, similar books that might like to read. Um, and then things like, you know, um, things that my book is not about. I did one of those. Um, so yeah, I have. When it's. When I, in terms of talking about the book, I have tried to be a bit more creative and use reels in order to communicate stuff that's maybe not so easy to communicate. And a. In a post. It's not that I don't mind shooting video. Um, I just find it. I don't know about you, but I do find it more labor intensive. Absolutely. And on this call with Instagram they said, you know, if you want to grow, you should post something like three reels a week. And I can't post who has capacity? That's the time. Um, so yeah, I sort of, I'm trying to post more but I don't think I'm ever going to manage three reels a week. Especially not if they're 30 seconds long.

Speaker A: Now people will be listening, going, what call? With Instagram? This is a thing they've been doing for a couple of years now. Where they pick users and say, would you like a call with a member of our team? Um, to get some. They kind of bill it as. Do they say feedback on your account?

Speaker B: Yeah, they start with a little bit of feedback on your account and then they sort of give you some growth advice. And the way it works actually is that they contact you and say, would you like us to call you? And I sort of said yes. And then actually I think it probably took about six months before they did actually call me. And it was. They just sort of phone you completely randomly. Like you don't, you don't know when they're going to call you. So I was actually walking home from work at the time because I work in a bookshop. One day a week I was walking home from work and um, yeah, and they, and I got a phone call from um, someone in I think Ireland actually who was working for Instagram and sort of talked me through uh, a little bit about, you know, my feed and then sort of some growth advice. But I have to say, Sarah, I actually, um, I think the growth advice I got from your course Instagram course, which I did years and years and years ago, um, was. Yeah. Much better or certainly not, um, that they didn't tell me anything new. Um, I, you know, it's the kind of post with consistency, use relevant hashtags. Um, what else did they say? That the kind of the standard things really make sure you're using trending music on your reels. Yeah. And then they said to make them 30 seconds as I say. M. Yeah. So, you know, it was a nice thing to have offered, but I don't think it's changed anything for me. No, not really.

Speaker A: I can't really work out why they do it.

Speaker B: No, no. And I mean, I think, I think the thing that I learned from it really was that uh, as it has always been, you know, you, you, you have to put in an awful lot of work if you want to grow on Instagram. And I think now more than ever because there was a point way back where I used to post every day and I cannot do that now. But I think now even if you were posting every day and ah, you were doing. Sorry, if you. Even if you were to post every day and you were doing 30 second reels and all the things that they suggested, I just, I just don't think now that you would see the growth that you would once have seen. I just don't think it works in the same way as it.

Speaker A: No, it doesn't. As it did and what we're seeing is, like, people will have viral reels or maybe even like a replicable formula for a viral reel, but then that doesn't carry across to increased growth on the rest of your posts. And so they will still stay static because followers doesn't really mean anything anymore on Instagram either. So it's a really different pattern of growth. You're right.

Speaker B: I mean, I sort of. I think my attitude to Instagram now is I've just sort of tried to relax a little bit more about it, which I guess, you know, it's easy to say that when you've got, um, a strong audience already. But I kind of had got to the point where I was like, actually, if I keep stressing about this every time I post something, trying to analyze why. Why it's worked and why it hasn't worked, and, um, I just can't. I don't know, you maybe can, but I can't see the patterns in the same way that I used to. That certain posts are going to, um, do certain numbers that. It just seems very hard to predict. Yeah. So I have given myself a little bit of grace just to go, actually, I'm going to do my best and I'm going to post. I'm still going to post things that I think are, uh, either going to sort of appeal to my existing followers or are, uh, potentially going to meet new people. But I'm just gonna have to sort of disconnect, uh, a little bit from worrying about, you know, whether that works or whether it doesn't. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Like playing the game a little bit less investedly.

Speaker B: Is that a word?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because I do. I don't know. It's hard, isn't it, when, Especially when you've been kind of very online for a long time, you do have to try and. Or I have to try. I have to try a little bit to disconnect my kind of, I suppose my sense of self wor from, you know, how successful things are online because you just can't control it.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Um, yes. So I am. I'm hugely, hugely grateful to have that Instagram audience. And it has allowed me to sort of do what I'm doing now, which is amazing. Um, but I also sort of now try to hold it quite lightly and just not, um, not get too hung up on it and too stressed about

Speaker A: it, which is good advice for all of the Internet in general.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Do you ever look at your, like, unsubscribes on substack? Are you having similar.

Speaker B: I. No, I really Try. I don't have any notifications for that. Very occasionally I check through to see if anyone's left a, um, sometimes people like a feedback that is actually sort of necessary for me because occasionally someone will say, oh, I signed up by mistake or something like that. Um, can you refund? So I do occasionally glance through for that, but no, I have no, um, notifications telling me when people have subscribed or unsubscribed. I really try and hold the numbers quite lightly and not get too hung up on it because I don't know, I just feel like I've done. I spent such a long time kind of really worrying about the numbers. Um, and I guess as I said, as we said at the start, it's that having people who really are engaged with what you're producing, I think at this stage in what I'm doing, at this stage of my career, it matters more to me to have people who are really interested in what I'm producing than it does to have just lots and lots of people, um, engaging with

Speaker A: my content on a very superficial level.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. You want that kind of depth of connection rather than sort of numbers necessarily.

Speaker A: And it's also like numbers on social media are very unhelpful metric for how good your work is, how much of an audience there is for your work. It doesn't really report on those things, it just reports on how well it's performed within that particular system's algorithm on that particular day.

Speaker B: Definitely. And um, I think it can be easy to assume that if you've got X number of followers, then you're going to be able to leverage, um, that to sell lots of books or whatever it is you want to do. But it doesn't necessarily work. You know, it gives you a channel of communication to talk about what you're doing certainly. But, um, it's not necessarily the same thing as um, having people who necessarily want to buy something that you're offering.

Speaker A: I found one of the big surprises for me with Substack was I've very much over the past few years kind of been drawn into a bit of a rabbit hole of like, like the worth in my work is in my knowledge and skills and that's what people want to pay me for. People want to pay for help with their social media, people want to pay for business advice and so courses and coaching etc, and that's still true. But what I, I kind of brought that across to Subsack and started writing about it there and it didn't really zing. It didn't you know, really do numbers. And what I realized was actually the people who came across the substack, most of them are much more interested in what I used to do back when I had a blog and the earlier days of Instagram, which was lifestyle and like personal writing.

Speaker B: And they want you, don't they? You know that then they're there for your writing. You know, you're an amazing writer. So that's what they're there for.

Speaker A: They want to read you a very complimentary podcast. I'm gonna just listen to this and I feel down.

Speaker B: I used to love your, um, old blog, um, your back in the day blog when you used to write sort of, um, I don't know what sort of, you know, quite creative, I guess. It was sort of memoiry stuff, wasn't it, that you were writing?

Speaker A: It was. I do look back on it now and think, who was this person? Like, these thoughts are not occurring to me now to write these posts and I want them back.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? Um, I do think, um, on substack, I do think that that is what people often are looking for, is that sort of insight into, you know, it's almost a little bit like a kind of behind the scenes thing, isn't it? You know, I've seen, you know, I've seen your content on Instagram and I'd like to know the thought behind that or the kind of story behind that

Speaker A: or the real human behind it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And the kind of. I do think that the um, the fact that it's long form, you know, because you could read your Instagram caption and go, oh, I like this, but it's, you know, it's only a certain number of words, isn't it? And then on substack, you know, you can dive in and really sort of get to the bottom of something. And I think that's a really lovely thing about it. I think that is often what draws people across is kind of like, I've had a little bit of this and I'd like more and I want to sort of see. Understand. Yeah. Who the person is.

Speaker A: Which I have to say was not on my like this decade social media bingo card for speaking to. Craving long form writing again. I'm really pleased it's back, but it seems like all the trends are going the other way and it's like video and it's short form and it's, you know, attention spans are allegedly shrinking, but this has kind of come out of left field and not only do People want it, but. But they want it so much they'll pay for it.

Speaker B: It's genuinely astonishing, isn't it? I would not. I absolutely would not have, um, predicted that at all. Um, I suppose also, again, it's quite a new medium, isn't it? Because there definitely is a lot of content on Notes on the Substack Notes app, which is people sort of saying how to succeed on Substack. Um, you know, and there's. There, There is some really great advice out there, but also, I sort of feel like maybe not anybody at this stage definitely knows that.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's really just the same old things apply. It's like, write good content and show up and nurture your community and there's not really any secrets.

Speaker B: No, that's it. Be consistent, have a recognizable brand. Yeah.

Speaker A: All of that stuff, everything that the Instagram called said to you. Really? Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I feel like. I wonder if. I suppose this is my theory that it reflects partly the way, sort of the degradation of newspaper journalism as we've seen it. Um, because so much of their model now has to be about ads and getting clicks. And so that's really shifted the focus of a lot of newspaper journalism. And then we've lost things like the Pool and Standard Issue and those online magazines that used to just be free to read. You know, 10 years ago, there was quite a lot of that. And then there's also got to be all the people who didn't read blogs first time around, like, just missed out on that whole world. And so for them, this is their first time, like, being able to have this kind of access. So I find it really inspiring that we could all be so wrong about it as well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, I love that.

Speaker B: Definitely. Um, I think, yeah. It just feels like a really, at this point, feels like a really positive space, doesn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And there's so many. I mean, so many people, so many amazing writers, so many amazing thinkers just keep popping up. You go, oh, they're on substack. You know, there's constantly, um. Yeah. Sort of inspiration. And I mean, I think that is the other thing that it can sometimes feel a bit overwhelming. Um, just because there is such a kind of depth of experience and talent, um, writing there, that you can think, oh, my gosh, is there space for me?

Speaker A: Yes. And I hear that a lot, actually, from people just starting out, or they don't feel like they are an official writer, so there's no space for them there. Ah. Or they don't even want to write. They want to post their artwork or something. And so that intimidation can be really real. But that's not really how users use Substack. Right. They're not comparing and contrasting. They're just trying to build their own, like daily magazine of little things they want to read or big things.

Speaker B: I don't know about you, but I'm judging from my sort of back office stats, most people, most people read my, um, substack via email.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You know, not many people are using the app. Um, so you can, you know, if you're creating on substack, if you're writing on substack or showing photographs or whatever, you can, you can sort of be on the notes app and in your head you're thinking, oh gosh, this is a really busy place. But actually the people who are receiving it, it just comes straight into their inbox and they're all, oh, you know, got this lovely letter in that regard

Speaker A: is like a, um, recipient. It's not all that different to being on an email list.

Speaker B: No, it's not at all.

Speaker A: It's something you get is so much more expansive and generous and because we all had so many rules in our head about email lists.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I suppose that there's always the option, isn't there, to click through and read some of the back catalog and you know, there's more available if you want it. But if you just want one email a week or one email a month or whatever it is coming into your inbox, then that's what you get. And that's a really lovely, uh, connection.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's a really lovely way to nurture that connection on a deeper level than the other platforms at the moment are really offering us.

Speaker B: And I, you know, I, uh, this is obviously a sort of much known thing, but, you know, the fact that someone gives you their email address is such a kind of honor to be, to be allowed into someone's inbox. I don't take that lightly because, you know, our inboxes are so busy, aren't they? So if someone says yes, you can, you can send me your words and I will open up my email inbox and I will read them. Like that's a really, um, that's a real privilege. I think it's a really lovely way of communicating. And um, yeah, I think that's a really special thing.

Speaker A: I agree completely. How have you been promoting your book on Substack so?

Speaker B: Well, actually I started, um, with a series called the Feeling of Writing a Book, which has, I think probably been my most popular sort of series of posts. And I started that um, when. When I was very first writing the book. So I'd had. I'd signed the um, contract but we hadn't announced it or what it was about or anything. And so it was. I sort of wanted to take my substack readers on the journey with me, um, on the writing journey. Um, so I started right from the very beginning of almost quite a nebulous idea and that sense that um, that the universe is kind of talking to you, that you know, you start to see connections and you start to find things in unexpected places. So I sort of started there um, and then I kind of wrote about the different stages of the journey. So I wrote about um, some of the things I'd learned from my first book and how that I was going to sort of bring that forward. Um, and I wrote about um, where I go to sort of find not so much inspiration but uh, kind of um, self belief. Like when I get to the point where I'm freaking out thinking I actually can't write this, like what am I doing? So I wrote about that, um, and I wrote about um. I did quite a lot of um. I did a lot of research. So Chasing Fog is a, It's a book about a journey. So I. A physical journey. So I traveled um, around the UK and then beyond uh, to different foggy places looking for fog. Um, and so the book is the kind of story of that journey. And then so on substech I've been sharing some of the kind of behind the scenes of sort of how those trips came about and um, sort of what happened that maybe didn't make it into the book. Um, and then I also wrote about, you know, how it felt to submit the manuscript and um, that moment when you sort of this book that you carried so close to you, it's been, you know, it's essentially a part of you. You and the book are ah, one thing and then suddenly you. I sent it to my editor and my agent and it's a very weird feeling because you think, oh gosh, this is actually going to go out into the world now. And it's not, it's not mine anymore. Yeah, no. So I wrote about that and actually on that day when I, when I sent it off I went for um. It was the end of January and I went for a very cold swim and it was a really. Yeah, it was quite a sort of lovely experience. And um, yeah, I saw a couple of birds appeared and kind of talked to me and yeah, it just had it just felt like a really kind of meaningful day. Um, so, yeah, that has. And in that sense, you know, we're saying before, where on Instagram you get a certain level of, um, interaction in what you're doing, but actually substack in terms of the book, it really has been taking people behind the scenes. Um, and. And the focus of that, you know, the title of that, the Feeling of Writing. But that's really what I focused on and how it feels. So it's. I haven't really written about, like, this is how to write a book, or I got a big deal if you can too. Yeah, nothing like that, really. It's been more about this is the kind of experience of it, and this is how it. How it feels. But. And then actually when I did, um, post about the book and sort of announce it, because those. Those posts were, um, for paid subscribers. So. So there was a little bit that I always do. Sort of, um, the first part of it, the first sort of element of the story is available to free subscribers. And then this sort of. When it gets into more depth, it was for paid subscribers. But when I announced the book, I made the whole series, um, free for everyone to read. And then I shared those posts, one a day for a couple of weeks just to kind of. Yeah. Just to kind of sort of. Yeah. Bring people in a little bit. And actually that worked really well because then people were sort of able to engage with the. There's something about being part of the journey, isn't there? Rather than just, here's a book, would you like to read it? But actually, you know, this book started here, and this is how I felt when I was writing it.

Speaker A: Invested with you.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And so there was, you know, obviously the book is a journey, but actually there's the journey behind the book.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, um, I love that that's such a beautiful, generous way for you to promote the book. Because we all have these feelings about promoting our own work and feeling kind of uncomfortable sometimes about it. But it's a really customized approach for your audience. You thought about what from that experience would be interesting and useful to them and then created content around that that just so happened to promote your book, rather than it having to feel like you just going, buy my book every day, even though I think that that's legit too. And you should do that part too. Um, but that's how. That's how to do it. Right. Like to make the promotion almost incidental, because you're giving more than you're taking.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you're sort of bringing people along with you, aren't you? And sort of saying, you're a part of this too. You know, we're, we're, we're sort of, we're, you know, on this kind of, uh. Yeah, we're doing this together.

Speaker A: Who doesn't have a dream of writing a book? Like, uh.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Everyone wants to know what that's like behind the scenes. The good, the bad and the ugly.

Speaker B: Yes. And I think, yeah, I think it is good to kind of open up a little bit behind and go, well, this is kind of. Because also, you know, in some ways writing a book sounds very glamorous, but the actual mechanics of it, as you well know, is mostly me sitting under a blanket.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Staring at a little cursor going, yeah, exactly. Haven't washed for days.

Speaker A: Why is that such a part of it? Oh my God.

Speaker B: I know. And I did write a post about. Because I've, I just, I write, um, when my kids are at school. So I've got this kind of six hour window when they're at school and I was, I wrote a post about that about how, you know, I have to. Once they've gone out the door, I kind of make my way up the stairs, stepping over discarded pajamas and cereal bows or whatever and I've just got to go up there and my head, you know, I've got bird's nest hair. I haven't got dressed and I just, you know, it's that. So there is the sort of. Yes, yes, it's a magical process, but it's also very inelegant at times.

Speaker A: I think that that's exactly why people love it. So are those posts still public? Can people go and read those now?

Speaker B: Um, I think they're behind the paywall again at the moment, but I can certainly, um, open them up again because, uh, yeah, if people would like to read them, I'll open them up and then you can go and have a little look because it is a. I'll

Speaker A: link to them as paywalls and then maybe people can leave comments if they would like to have a nosy behind the scenes. Or they can always do a free trial. Right. Substack gives that.

Speaker B: Yes, Substack gives a free trial option. That's true.

Speaker A: Um, and I will also link to your wonderful books and your wonderful Instagram. And, uh, you have a retreat coming up as well, don't you?

Speaker B: Yes. So in March, um, I'm hosting a retreat with Tanya lynch from Eaze Retreat. So who's also on substack actually, um, and it's a day writing retreat in Oxfordshire. Yeah. And it's about finding your voice. Um, I don't know about you, but I feel like quite a lot of what I do or I produce for other people is sort of stuff that I wish had existed for me. Um, and so I, you know, I kind of a sort of week long white retreat, it's just not something that would have worked for me, you know, back when my kids were young. But a day retreat, you know, I just think a lovely gift to yourself to go and spend the day writing and eating lovely food and meeting people. So that. And Tanya from Eaze Retreats, she does all the, um, all the logistics and all the organization and she's amazing at making people feel sort of welcome. And then I'll be teaching, um, some writing workshops.

Speaker A: How wonderful. Well, make sure you send me the link and I'll put that in the show notes.

Speaker B: I'll send you the link as well.

Speaker A: Uh, Laura, it's always such a delight to talk to you. It's so inspiring and uplifting. So thank you.

Speaker B: Oh no, thank you so much for inviting. It's been so nice to catch up.

Speaker A: Full show notes for this episode are over, uh, on my substack and you can find links to everything I've talked about today, including that substack class and that free co writing call in your podcast app or in over on substack as well. It's been a pleasure as always hanging out with you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for listening. I hope you have a beautiful day.