100: Handling Pressure in Life or Death Situations

Speaker A: I'm Dan Hasler and I would love you to join me and some of the world's best athletes on the Play Fearless podcast. We'll make funning. Welcome to Play Fearless.

Speaker B: Out of all the years and all the days that I've surfed, uh, that's the only time I felt like I was ever in danger.

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Speaker A: Hello and welcome to episode 100 of the Habits of Leadership podcast. My name's Dan Hasla from Cut Through Coaching. And joining me on today's episode is Sam Monaghan. Sam is a New South Wales firefighter, a station officer, and also a member of the Australian Urban Search and Rescue Team. I first met Sam when he came into the Penrith Panthers to share some information about how they use mental skills to manage pressure in life and death scenarios. And it was interesting to recognize the similarities behind the techniques that we use in elite sport and the techniques that first responders use in emergency situations. I've been interested for a long time about how people who are working at the pointiest end of the pressure continuum might use mental skills. Because, because my belief is that if we can take the principles and techniques that they use and then explore how we might use those principles in our day to day pressure situations, I reckon if it holds at the life and death end of the continuum, it'll hold pretty much wherever you find yourself. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Sam, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker B: Hi Dan, thanks very much for having me.

Speaker A: Absolute pleasure, mate. Um, you are a firi, you're a station officer and you're also a member of the, the Australian Urban Search and Rescue Team, which sees you sort of tasked with helping out in floods and bushfires and even going overseas. Um, we'll get to all of that. Um, but I thought it'd be interesting to share with our listeners. Uh, like we actually met when uh, you came into the Penrith Panthers to, you know, a bit of research, bit of PD for yourself, but also ended up presenting to the boys. How did, how did that come about? What sort of led you to get in contact and reach out to the Panthers and find your way in there?

Speaker B: Yeah, I had reached out to the, the Panthers, um, in my experience as a firefighter, I guess I'm, you know, uh, working in kind of high pressure environments. So I have experienced uh, the difficulties associated with, I guess the mental game, um, behind working in those areas. Um, and it's over the years developed, um, a bit of a curiosity for me whether we can use kind of sports psychology, um, in the same way that. That obviously sports have. But the military, um, have used it to improve their performance in those pressure moments. Um, and I guess I'd look at the Panthers, uh, especially the last few years, um, as a consistent team, um, their culture, uh, their resilience, um, through the changing uh, staff that they've had over the last few seasons, um, as a group who obviously employ uh, their mental skills, coach and mental skills throughout the day. So, um, I was more than happy to be invited to speak. I just wanted to come and observe um, how they integrated their practices into the day. Um, and I'm really appreciative of the staff and yourself, um, especially Coach Ivan. I really noticed his curiosity, um, why he kind of leads his team by stepping back and letting other people step forward. Uh, I think he's quite a powerful figure in that way.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a real, I think it's a real, um, point of difference actually with a lot of other coaches. I'm not saying every coach but you know, a lot of coaches. Just that it's. It's the confidence or the, yeah, the, um. Yeah, the confidence and just the. The manner in which he can step back to allow others to do their role. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was, it stood out.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, um, yeah, it's. It. As I said, I, I um, was actually really stoked when. Because the way it came about was, you know, we actually had, um. I was chatting with Kevy here, the Panthers, and he said to me, he was like, oh, um, I've met this fary who's uh, who's keen to come in and there's a podcast. And so I listened to this podcast. I was like, absolutely, let's get him in. I know he wants to come and learn from us, but I reckon I'm going to learn as much from. From you. And it sort of um, tapped into this interest I've had um, over the past probably year, 18 months in particular, kind of just looking at how first responders in general manage uh, pressure, manage those real high stakes, uh, moments. And my curiosity I guess has been around, um, do the techniques or what techniques, um, do they use which they could hold in other domains, you know, like so. And vice versa. Like other things that we're, as you already alluded to, we're coaching in sport that actually are versions of what people are doing at the pointiest end. Um, you know, with the life, literally life and death pressure before we get there, you know, because it's not all life and death. You know, it's. Sometimes it's, it might be quite mundane, it might be quite quiet in the world of a firefighter but then within an instant it could be pretty meaningful, pretty chaotic, pretty, you know, high stakes. So just for the benefit of those who have only really either seen it in Hollywood or, or um, been had, you know, had to evacuate an office building because of a fire alarm, you know, which, which didn't, you know, was because someone burnt soup, you know, um, just take us into the real life world of a fiery. Like what is it like day to day? The kinds of things that you go, the speed you operate at, uh, that kind of stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah, cool. Um, you're, you're right on many points there. It's, it's probably not like Hollywood which jams all the kind of uh, best jobs of the year together into to one shift. Um, you will get um, quiet times and busy times. Um, firefighting is incredibly unique, um, in many ways. Um, starting with coming uh to work for not the day but like a 24 hour shift. M. And we come into our fire station, um, that's really our home for that period. Uh, we have um, ah, other firefighters that we work with. So I work in a team of, of six people who man two different trucks. Um and you know we've got a lot of um, jobs that we need to do before or that go around or alongside responding to emergency events. Um, but yeah, just living in, in the firehouse, um, as they call them in America. You know we cook in there, we eat our meals in there together. We, we rest um, and have downtime in there. Um, but what a normal day would look like is pretty busy and I guess we'll talk a lot about preparation today uh because we can kind of never know what we're going to turn out to. So we spend a lot of time checking equipment, um, training, uh, for specific jobs or just training generally as a group. Um, we've kind of shifted um, some of the jobs that we do to more connect with the community. Um, I'd say and since I've been a firefighter in the last 15 years M. I think there's a bit of work going on shifting from kind of a protector mentality. Where we wait till something bad happens and we step in between danger and those people to more, um, a system of trying to partner with our uh, community and recognizing vulnerabilities, um, or unsafe conditions within the community. Um, so some good work that's been done in New South Wales relates to uh, installing smoke detectors into homes, identifying issues with lithium ion batteries, um, you know, speaking to school students, um, about road safety, that kind of stuff. So um, as much as we can be a big part of the community, uh, we serve that community better uh, through partnership than just responding. Um, so beyond that though, uh, we do respond um, to emergencies and I guess um, where the interest from a, like you've mentioned from a sports club to hear about how firefighters deal with pressure, um, can stem from how we, you know, respond to those bigger emergencies. And um, the uniqueness again of firefighters is that we're kind of generalists, we get called to all types of things, not just fires. And we need to be kind of experts in a, in a whole range of things.

Speaker A: Uh, which is for example, what sort of things might you get called to which you know, aren't. I mean other than cats up trees and things?

Speaker B: No, no cats up trees for sure. Um, and you can start with fires because even a fire could be in a, you know, a residential tower in, in the middle of the night with, with a, you know, high occupancy load, or it might be a commercial building at a different time and they'll have all different patterns through those buildings and fire engineer conditions. So we need to um, I guess be experts at how to deal with those different systems. Um, you know, beyond fires, we get called to rescue incidents, um, and again we're just a few moments notice, um, the bells will go off and it could be anything from someone trapped kind of safely in an elevator, um, or a kid, uh, whose finger or you know, hands stuck in a toy or a swing or something right up to you know, a full on industrial, um, you know, machine that's, that's fully trapped someone's arm, um, or limb, um, you know, with highly serious consequences. And the firefighters need to be kind of experts and have systems to navigate through that uncertainty of how to um, dismantle and cut and, and take apart and make space in this machine that, that they might have or will have never seen before or never, um, you know, had had any knowledge of. Yeah, um, again, all within a few moments notice, um, hazardous materials is, is a similar one. Um, you know, we have some good knowledge of, of, of dealing uh, with different chemicals and, uh, hazards. Um, but I've, you know, used to be stationed at a. At a station near Sydney University. And, you know, we got called to a hazardous spill of some sort and the, the, you know, chemistry professor kind of just said in there, mate, you go and fix it. As if, as if, you know, I'd know more than him.

Speaker A: You're the professor, mate. M. What I'm hearing that's really interesting, which I think probably sets. Well, it's one of the things I imagine that sets first responders like yourself apart from, and I'm just going to use the very broad, you know, the general population, general workers. Is that for the most part, and maybe I'm speculating too much here, but for a lot of us listening, kind of know what they're going to be faced with. And that's probably compounded by the fact they kind of know when they're going to be faced with it. Like the meeting is in the calendar.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, the lesson is on the, on the timetable. The game is on Saturday, whereas for you, you don't know what you're going to be faced with and you don't know when.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, like you mentioned, um, you know, there won't be any notice, um, once things occur, um, we'll be there in a few minutes. Um, and I guess like I mentioned, we won't be able to plan for every circumstance. What we want is just a series of, um, you know, good decision trees, um, and systems to navigate, uh, our way to resolving the incident.

Speaker A: So let's talk a little bit then about, um, I guess just the general ways in which you, you manage that. We'll talk about the training shortly about how you get to this. But I'll give you an example of something that I hear a lot of when I'm working with people in different domains, is that they can't switch off. You m. Know, they can't switch off. And they mean literally, like they can't switch off their phone or they can't switch off mentally because, you know, because perhaps maybe the phone can't be switched on and they feel like. They feel like they're on call. What's it like to actually be on call? And how do you not be operating in this constant. Oh, uh, it could be now, could be now, could be now. Is, is that a. Is that a character trait? Like, because obviously firefighters do self select to a fair degree. Is it a character trait? Is it something you see that's just in a lot of people in your workspace, or is it we have to train that. We have to be quite deliberate. We give ourselves other things to focus on. Like, how does that play out?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, uh, firefighters are helped by a bit of a natural pace through the day. Uh, like I mentioned, there will be times that we're called on, um, to respond to incidents. Um, and. And that is hanging over us. Um, through day and night, the bells do keep going off. Um, but through the. When we finish those events, um, it is resolved. Uh, we'll. We'll hand that event over. And again, we've got systems to, to kind of draw a line under our actions and our legislative requirements. So when we leave that incident, I guess it doesn't typically, uh, linger on or keep in our m. Minds in the day. Uh, in the same way someone, um, working another job might have a project or, um, a big task that they need to think about for the entire week. Um, and some of it stems from. Even during an incident, we have separate milestones throughout it. Um, and that helps us really, like, focus on what's our best action at a particular time. Um, for example, at a fire, we'll kind of define, you know, when someone might be trapped or life might be at risk. Um, but we really importantly designate through. And we communicate the point that there's no one trapped, there's no life at risk. And we'll change our speed. We'll lower that, uh, tolerance to risk that we might have at that stage. And again, once the fire's out or, um, you know, the unsafe condition ceases to exist, we, we'll really communicate that and we'll have a, like a refocus. To say there's no, no risk at the moment. So let's not put ourselves in any risky spots. Thinking like that, um, you know, throughout the day is to focus on the best action and the most appropriate kind of level, uh, of. Of excitement and level, um, that we want to be. And most firefighters, um, are pretty well versed at coming back to the station and not holding onto the job.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, so we, I mentioned it, you've mentioned it. This idea of operating at different speeds so it's not all go. Your central nervous system isn't constantly on high alert, vigilant, but you're quite deliberate in dialing it up when it needs to be and quite deliberate in dialing it down when you can. Is that fair to say?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I don't think there's too many firefighters that need to dial it up. Um, as we're getting kind of information about a job, um, it'll start with the initial stimulus that bell is going off, um, and we'll be leaked information through, you know, whether it's a house fire, rescue or whatever. Um, and based on the information, I guess firefighters natural level of arousal, uh, tend to, um, you know, meet the requirements of the job.

Speaker A: Um, what about over arousal?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, and I don't think firefighters suffer from being under aroused. So what's important is to teach them, you know, like how to deal with being over aroused. I think firstly having an awareness, um, that that is a thing, that there's an arousal level and that it will eventually, um, affect how we affect how we perform under pressure. Um, and then teaching people, you know, various skills. So, uh, um, be it breath work, um, in the truck on the way to a job. So we're probably going to be going to a job and it'll take, you know, five or six minutes to drive there. Um, in that time, like we can't perform, we can't affect the job. So that's not a useful time to, to be, you know, ramping ourselves up. Um, um, when we get to the job, uh, we will have a whole range of tasks that we need to do. Um, and that can be a really overwhelming time. You might have, um, you know, the fire occurring, um, people coming down the street to yell at you and point to you what, what their experiences has been or, or where they think you need to go. Um, you'll have other crews also trying to interact with you at the job. Um, you'll have a whole bunch of hazards that you need to, I guess, um, account for and do something about like turning power off, um, like checking out all the walls to see if one of them might collapse or the part of the roof might collapse. So all of a sudden you've got probably more than 10 things to be thinking about in a hurry. Um, you've got a lot of spinning plates up in the air and um, it's not possible to kind of maintain awareness of that many things at once. So you just need to be really specific in triaging that information. Um, and as much as we can just try to uh, focus on what we can control. M so that'll kind of include the people coming and talking to us and a few other factors we'll try to just ignore. And we'll will say there, uh, would have been a lady I met a few weeks ago and her unit was on fire and she probably thought I was pretty rude because she was trying to tell me how the fire started and what the neighbors are going to think and how long she's been living there. And I had to kind of be quite direct in saying, hey, my guys are going to go through that door. How are we going to get to that unit which is on fire right now? We're going to go up the stairs. Do we turn left, do we turn right? And, and if we can just kind of focus on those simple things, then we're starting to get water on the fire, um, things will start to relax down. It takes a series of, uh, actions, um, that have a positive effect on the incident. Um, so turning power off, getting water on the fire, identifying, um, you know, whether there are people trapped or not. Um, and if you can get those series of actions in a row, we start to have a win. If we can't get those series of actions in a row, the fire is spreading, more people are coming, uh, becomes more chaotic and it's harder for us to deal with.

Speaker A: Yeah. When you said you, um, know in the, in the truck on the way, you can't do much to impact the, uh, the situation. But I also heard you say, um, you do, you'll do some breath work.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Right. And again, for the, for the listener listening, they might, they might not be aware of what breath work actually is. So, and I appreciate this, it might be something different for each member of the team in that truck, but for you personally, when you're on route to, um, an emergency and, you know, it's more than a cat up a tree, what are you being really deliberate about in preparation for it? So that when you arrive there, you can run through that checklist in the manner you've just said without getting confused, you know, without losing it because someone's in your face about how long they've lived at the apartment.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Um, so we know that through our breath we can kind of regulate our, uh, sympathetic nervous system. Um, and that's going to be the one that could push us over the arousal levels and get that like, acute stress response, the flight, fight, freeze. Um, and it has to be predetermined for a firefighter to realize that fight, flight, fight, freeze isn't going to be helpful, ah, tactic or a strategy to use at an incident.

Speaker A: That's what the public are doing. To be clear, the public, they're fighting the first responders or they're running away or they're freezing. So, ah, you can't be doing that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and so again like having an awareness that that is a, ah, normal response, but it's an acute stress response. Uh, and it's not going to be helpful. Um, so for that reason, like you meant, like I mentioned, breathing is a tactic. Um, but other tactics can be, um, so self talk. Um, and this is starting to now show the alignment between the sports psych work and the um, where firefighters could be going. Um, you know, I think performance triggers. So you know, using certain um, you know, physical, you know, triggers and tapping yourself or. Um, I used to find, you know, putting bits of your kit on and doing the straps up nice, um, and feeling that it's nice and comfortable, um, was something that kind of like sets you into, into battle mode. Um, when I have um, done some of the training, um, to manage these incidents. So you're then responsible, like I say, for, for the plan, how to get firefighters in there, for the hazards that are involved, uh, for the people that need to be trapped, that may be trapped and how they're going to come out. Um, and also a plan for the incoming firefighters, what you're going to task them to do and how you're going to do all that. Um, you know a trick was as a physical cue was to put a smile on my face. And I found when I spoke to people with a smile on my face, it really slowed me down. Um, and it was quite deliberate and I'm sure it had some type of reassuring effect on them as well. Um, and through that training I was able to realize there's probably only like five or six bits of information I need to see beyond, you know, what, what I can. Well that's about as much information as I can handle at the moment. So I don't want to delve into to anything else, um, about the incident. Um, so it's all predetermined. It's all pre, um, I guess learned that I need to go through these systems. Um, and if I don't go through these systems, if I don't know how to navigate through that kind of pressure, I'm uh, probably going to be overwhelmed. My um, spinning plates are going to start to, to start falling down. Um, and things are going to get a lot harder after that.

Speaker A: Yeah. So you're um, you know, without laboring the point, you're working in life and death situations in, in certain circumstances. So if I was to think about pressure in terms of, you know, on a continuum, you're right up at the pointy end of that continuum. And I would imagine that everyone listening, um, can relate to when they have pressure. M. And for some it may be life and death, for others it might just be a Financial thing. It could be a performance thing. What I'm curious about is you're talking about um these ways of working um you know to manage your emotions uh to manage that, that that physiological the psychological response and some of those things you were saying to me. To me and I know intuitively what you mean like breathwork, tapping uh with the kit. Yep. What I'm wanting I guess to really double down on so people listening can, can get to. It's like you know, I wonder what kind of breath work are you doing? How deliberate are you being what kind of self talk are using? Not so people can then copy it but they can create their version.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And the other thing I heard when you're talking about kit is I would frame that as perhaps it's like a ritual. It's a routine.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: That I. And it trigger. It's a trigger. Right. Because you've associated that routine with then good performance. So I'm curious if you just. Just like sort of just double down on each one of those things. So when you're talking about breath work specifically like what does that look and feel like for you?

Speaker B: Yes. Um so to, to explain the specific components. I think breath work um could be the psychological sigh.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Breathing out for longer than I've breathed in um helps down. I'll regulate the uh, the sympathetic nervous system and allows um again my nervous system to be calmer reducing the like the chance that I'm going to have that acute stress response. Uh because I've practiced it. Um I'm aware that is going to be the effect of it. Um and I'm telling myself that, that I'm aware there could be an acute stress response and I want to interrupt that. I don't want that to happen. Self talk is a good one. And again through the training as you, as you do to manage that incident. Um a lot of people have kind of just, just um. Yeah. Little, little labels you put on to all the hazards or or the um you know, order of things that you need to do. Um. I think if I probably said like breathe, observe, decide uh a three kind of simple processes to slow myself down, take some information in because who would have thought the investment of 1 1/2 seconds to look around and to label things um is a, is a good investment uh and then decide I'm looking at those next best actions um and how to do it. But certainly um the physical cues is something that I've like learnt um more recently. I um, love hearing from Dan Carter. Talks a lot about um standing in front of, uh, the goal, uh, kicking a penalty goal or something. And he's, you know, feels that self doubt, um, some negative self talk. So, uh, he's tapping his, um, hands on his thighs is just a way of refocusing back to the appropriate focus, which I think was talking about where he's going to position his feet as he's um, making contact with the ball. So, um, putting the kit on, like you say for me, and having it nice and tight, um, is a performance cue that like. Yeah, my, my breathing apparatus set is, is fitting nicely. So that's going to lead on to my next hose layer. Going to be nice. And so on and so on through the incident.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, um, when I, when I hear it, it's like that. So many people kind of roll their eyes. If I'm working in, in a workshop, I talk about this idea of, you know, if you're under the pressure, just, just breathe, you know, and people. I've actually had someone in an audience go, seriously, we've waited 45 minutes for breathe. You know, that's all you've got. And my, my response to that person is, yeah, it is. Your breath is all you've got in that moment. Right. And it's, that's whether it's the, the psychological sigh like you explained, whether it's a box breathing like Special Forces popularized, whether it's any version of just being mindful and deliberate around our breath that then, I think then leads into that self talk and, you know, really being conscious about self talk, about what I am going to do, not what I don't want to do.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And then having a ritual attached to it, a physical action which is the, you know, the trigger into it. I think every, I think everyone listening has a metaphor of a firefight, like whatever their firefight is. And if they could take that and create their own version of that, it would be interesting to see what, how much better over time they would start performing.

Speaker B: Yep. And, um, like I mentioned, this isn't formalized in the fire brigade training, but I think if I spoke to firefighters, some of the things I'm mentioning are things that are coming naturally, um, to the people who have managed themselves well under pressure. Um, so I'd love to see this kind of introduced more formally as a skill that can be developed, um, throughout people's career.

Speaker A: So when we talk about the training, because I'm fascinated by that, like, let's say, I mean, let's go back in time and say that I was 21, 22, and I and I passed whatever aptitude. I don't actually know the process. Right. Is it a physical test first or is it smarts test first? Let's say I get through all of that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Right. And then I'm in.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: How on earth do you prepare me to run into a burning building when everyone else is running out? Like what, what happens after that, after you've assessed? Well, he's got the. Yeah, take me through that because I'm fascinated by that.

Speaker B: Uh, so Fire Rescue New South Wales has a 12 week course for recruits. Um, they'll have a mix of ages, genders, um, life experiences, um, and whether or not you're a firefighter from another organization or from a military or sports background, um, you'll all be given the same training, um, which will prepare you to be a firefighter. It'll prepare you to be on a truck, um, and respond as a firefighter from a point that you'll continue to learn and gain experience. Um, but yeah, you'll be, you'll be um, trained in elements of all of those roles, like I mentioned, of firefighting and you spend a lot of time um, with hoes and, and working in buildings and working as a team, um, but also elements of rescue, driving the, driving the fire trucks, um, working with hazardous materials, wearing breathing apparatus, uh, training, um, to be kind of a, have a medical capability to be able to respond. Uh, so you'll be given a lot of training in those areas, um, and you will inherently be learning, um, you know, about managing yourself and managing yourself in pressure. Um, we'll be trained about um, how fire brigade will, will consider, um, your well being as a firefighter throughout your career. Um, but I'd love to keep growing the concept of decision making skills, focus and arousal control skills, using visualization as a skill that can be developed, um, to improve your firefighting capacity.

Speaker A: And talk to me about visualization because obviously in sport it's very, um, I was going to say very well understood. It's understood. Um, and some athletes and coaches certainly embrace it more than others. Um, in your, like in your world.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Um, again, is this something that you do a lot of? Is it something that you know, your teammates do? M. Is it? Yeah. Or is it a bit more hit and miss as to whether people are doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, Um, I think, I think if I said that word people would be surprised how much of it they are doing without calling it that, that skill. M. Um, again, successful people are probably using elements of it especially in training, um, again for the incident management side of things. Um, you might uh, drive past a firefighter and if you see them kind of muttering to themselves as they're staring at a bunnings, uh, or a high rise, they might be um, preparing to send all their radio messages. Um, so pre event they're kind of like imagining, all right, there was a fire in that building on level three and this many people are trapped. And um, when that happens I'm going to send a crew here and I'll try to get the, the fire pumps working here. And so that's kind of a visualization or at least a mental rehearsal model, uh, which is benefiting that, that person kind of preparing for their incident management exams. And the same type of firefighter might be thinking if, if their role was to go inside, you know, how they're going to break down this door or climb a ladder up to that level. So I think there would be a lot of mental rehearsal going on. Um, what the skill is that we could really probably, um, build on and develop formally is that visualization like sports are using the alignment between sports, military, uh, and the fire brigade is that it's hard to recreate those realistic high pressure moments. Um, I can't go and set these buildings on fire and put people into them. Um, but we can take elements of fires and I um, guess visuals that you can see on YouTube or that we've experienced in the past ourselves, um, and then recreate them in our mind. And my understanding is that like a good visualization practice will kind of trick the body and the body won't realize the difference between the mental rep and the, and the um, you know, actual physical rep. Um, when you visualize you can throw in some, you know, challenges, um, that you overcome so you can visualize to have a really good result. Um, you might break down a simple task like connecting a fire hose from the fire truck over, over the road to the hydrant and back and then you're just kind of um, refining that skill. So when that happens you're you know, better prepared and more confident for it. Or you might have a whole series, like I said, of, of, of entering a, a burning building and having the confidence, um, from, from doing that too. So uh, that's a skill, um, that's one that we can do, um, as a, as a development activity.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know, when you say that the brain doesn't know the difference, it sounds really strange to say that, but it, but it's really accurate. Uh, you know, you have the same, um, you know, physiological response when you're visualizing really well. I remember, um, I was chatting with Anna Mears, the Olympic, uh, cyclist and uh, Chef Dimitian of the, of the team. And she was talking to uh, me about um, the first time she practiced visualization for um, what was going to be her first Olympic Games. The psych did such a good job of getting her to recreate the environment and the feelings that she'd have that when she then went to uh, do her practice run, she was dreadful because she was completely overwhelmed by being at the Olympics. Even though she was just in a practice track at Adelaide, she felt heavy and, and it's a really interesting one because I reckon people mindlessly visualize all the time. They ruminate on what's going to go wrong and they establish that neuromuscular pathway. And then when it starts to go wrong in real life, that's just. Oh, here we go again. So again it's. I'm just hoping that people listening go, this isn't just for far ease. This isn't just for sports. People like visualize. Visualize you performing well, whatever it might be, your, your presentation to the board, your, your year nine class, what, you know, your conversation with your own teenage kid. Visualize it going well. But also I think there's value and I'd be interested in your take on this visualizing a setback and how you respond to it. Is that something that you would do?

Speaker B: Oh, uh, that's what I mentioned.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is, is, is that it'd be important to, you know, get lost and then what you're going to do, um, you know, not be able to get into this section, lose your partner, uh, run out of water. These are all things that are really realistic that probably should be expected to occur in the chaos of the initial stages of a fire or um, whatever other emergency event. Uh, and by experiencing that in the safety of a visualization practice like Anna Miz, she would have been very thankful that she had that bad run, um, that wasn't in the Olympic Games. So put yourself in the, in a tricky situation in that safe place. Um, also goes to really dialing up the sensory elements of um, those visualizations. Um, in the high pressure events you can lose some of those sensory experiences. Meaning, meaning, meaning I think, um, like from combat stress, uh, your vision gets narrowed, um, you lose your blood flow to your peripherals. Um, so your sense of touch, definitely a sense of hearing, is that people will often comment. And I yelled this at you when you didn't respond because you weren't listening. You were just Focusing on running into that, you know, big wall of fire. Yeah. Um, so again, during that event, if you, if you had interrupted that, that automatic kind of, um, response, um, and, and slowed yourself down, uh, you, you, you might have better awareness of your senses. And so practicing through your visualization of the senses, having a really strong idea of what does it feel like at different times, um, would be an important thing to practice. So when it does happen, you're, you're better prepared for it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. The, um, the, the. So when we're visualizing, it's not just picturing the scene, it's hearing the scene, it's smelling the scene. It's feeling, you know, feeling the scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's cool, mate. Um, let's talk about a scene that, um. You know, I, I don't know how much preparation you do for this, but, um, a couple of years ago, um, a huge earthquake went, um, through Turkey. And as part of the, uh, UN's response, you, uh, uh, were sent over, uh, as part of the Australian Urban Rescue Team. Can you take us, first and foremost, just bring us into the picture of what, what that Australian Urban Rescue team is, you know, the honor that you have representing, uh, in that fashion. And then, yeah, maybe let's explore what it was like getting on the ground in Turkey, because I'm guessing, and I don't, I don't know, I'd be keen to hear, I don't know how much visualization you'd have done of that, um, you know, how much preparation, etc for that particular scenario. So I'm keen to get into that.

Speaker B: Well, being a firefighter in New South Wales, um, affords you the opportunity to become a rescue kind of specialist. And there's different competencies there which you can then take on to be an urban Search and Rescue Category 2 qualified team member. Um, at that point you are part of a team of which there's two in Australia, one in New South Wales, one in Queensland, um, that if the Australian government is requested to support, uh, for disaster relief, um, you could be deployed in Australia or overseas to assist. Um, this team's history relates to, uh, the Thredbo landslide disaster in 1998, um, the Japanese tsunami and the earthquake in Christchurch, which were close together in 2012.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, and then there wasn't an international deployment until, uh, 2023, um, when, yeah, at 4:00 clock in the morning on the, the Turkish Syrian border. Large earthquake, um, just really decimated, um, entire cities. Um, and you've seen some footage of, um, kind of 9 to 12 level residential blocks, um, that had either fallen over completely or begun to fall over. Um, and through earthquakes and buildings fallen like that, you'll get survivable voids.

Speaker A: Um, which is so survivable void. How would you best describe that?

Speaker B: Imagine, you know, a room in the way that the building had fallen over. Fortunately, uh, for some people, uh, elements of that room had stayed intact. So there was a space where people hadn't been crushed inside. Um, but all.

Speaker A: But all exits are blocked, so to speak. They're under the rubble. But there's.

Speaker B: Yeah, you would have had people in the initial stages crawling out from rubble. You would have had people in the initial days who, um, you know, were lightly trapped and helped out, um, by bystanders, um, and then over the next, like three or four days, um, up to about a week when the Australian team arrived, um, you've got people deeply trapped and you've got, um, you know, buildings that need heavy machinery to access different parts of them, um, and then to use different search devices, um, to locate and then free people trapped in different elements of rubble. Um, and so the New South Wales team was on call at that time and sent over, um, to respond. Um, yeah, I'd been a member of that team just for a couple of years and, um, I think I spoke to you and the Panthers about, um, you know, the, the weight I held of putting that uniform on. Um, I spoke to them about that being, you know, the equivalent of our representative team. Um, and I guess the important, um, moment for, for me and maybe others that I talked to was being on a plane and looking up and down at the team of champions that you're kind of in, um, and needing to decide not to be intimidated and overawed, um, either by being in that team or going on to, um, you know, respond to the difficult challenges we were being called onto. Um, so a lot of self talk to remind myself that, um, I had been, you know, chosen to be in this team and I needed to step up and, and you know, take actions to, to continue, um, the good reputation of the team, um, that I, That I'd kind of grown up being aware of.

Speaker A: Did you have that, did that hit you once you're on the plane or, or had you got it, you know, as you're going to the airport, you're going on, here we go. Or. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, when did that hit you and when did you decide to. To. To challenge that negative self talk, perhaps, or that self Doubt and.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And step into it.

Speaker B: Yep. Um, well, both. Yeah, probably related to the travel because you're traveling military style on a, On a big sea. Uh, C30. Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: Comfortable or no.

Speaker B: Royal Australian Aircraft. Uh, I, I joked that I had recently been on a holiday with some, some of my young kids who were crawling over me and, and punching me in the head. So I found it was luxurious. I found them not being there made it quite, yeah, quite an easy trip. Um, also the fact that it was quite a long trip, um, gave us the ability to. Yeah. To reconcile the fact that um. Yeah, this was a challenging process. Um, but that um, you know, it was important for us to put our best foot forward and to um, take actions, um, that would, you know, make. Make the rest of the um, team kind of happy. Happy with what we've done. Um, I spoke also just about the importance of that uniform. Um, again, it was kind of a rep team, so we had an Australian flag on our, on our shoulders. Um, and I spoke to some of my teammates whose um, you know, were also on their first deployment and we spoke about the importance of this uniform and a little bit about our journey that we'd made in this uniform and what it meant for us to be a, uh, part of this team and actually being deployed. Um, us acting as custodians, I guess, of that uniform. Um, and that was a really important performance cue for us. Um, it was a good reminder day in, day out that, you know, as times um, were quite difficult or, uh, we had a few challenging days or you know, obviously being tied throughout, um, you know, a two week deployment that we kept kind of like tapping that Aussie flag and just a memory of our discussion about um, you know, the actions and attitudes and behaviors that we wanted to um, demonstrate in that uniform. Uh, to make others proud of us and, and to signify like our commitment to that uniform and what it meant to us.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love the idea of being a custodian of it. So in terms of um, going there and landing on the ground again, for those that M. May have, you know, it's hard to imagine, but for those who have kind of forgotten that the magnitude of that, we were talking like tens of thousands of people.

Speaker B: Yeah. Unfortunately, I think the death tolls ended up to be over 60. Um. Thousand.

Speaker A: 60,000 people. Yeah.

Speaker B: And. And we were getting pretty sketchy information about where we were going to be sent.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and that's because the local agencies were overwhelmed, hence calling, you know, foreign governments for assistance. Um, yeah. What, what was easy for us was just to um, go and help out with what we could. Um, so moving through the city, um, with every other building either fallen or about to fall, um, you know, we could go through a process of. Of searching what was left. Um, this is an important um, thing for us to do because the local agencies were at the point of just needing to start knocking down the remaining buildings. Um, so by us clearing them using our search techniques, we're allowed. Able to um, allow that to. To progress. Um, we were able to remove um, deceased, um, of. Of adults and. And of children, um, and hand them back to their family members. So before those buildings were demolished, we could kind of recover the. The deceased and give them like a closure, um, that they wouldn't have otherwise been given.

Speaker A: Which I know from a previous conversation with you, um, was. I mean just frame it. Just hearing you say it, you know, we've been removing the deceased adults and then children. Um, you're. That isn't. You know, and I'll sort of be somewhat blunt, but that isn't what you were hoping to be doing, obviously. Right. You're the. The search and rescue team. Um, not. Not the search and recover bodies team. And I know from a conversation we had that there was. Within the. Within the group. You know, there was almost a moment where it's kind of like, what's the point? Like what are we doing here?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I'd love us, if it's okay with you, just to go there and just talk about how. How that the dynamic in your team changed. Um, when you were there, you thought you were going or you were hoping to go and do the rescue part.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And you end up doing what I can own and I can only imagine is just bloody awful, um, stuff. How does one. How does a team keep their motivation up? How do they look after each other when they're faced with that kind of, um, tragedy on a massive scale.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and that was a process the team and some members went through. Um, which was frustration that there was, um, buildings nearby we were working where survivors were being pulled out of. Um, and just by whatever happenstance that the buildings we were searching, um, were not full of survivors. Um, also frustration that. Yeah, that as days went past it was less and less likely. Um, and I guess part of um, that long travel over to represent Australia in a different country, um, apart from self talk, there were probably people um, imagining um, you know, the um, great outcome of hopefully saving people. Um, so as it became, um, you know, more realistic that that might not happen. Um, I can understand that people felt frustrated and I think the leadership within the team, um, both from the top, but just throughout the team, um, was able to motivate each other. Um, like I've mentioned how some members, you know, were just reminding each other of the importance of their, um, conduct as the Australian rescue team. Um, there was other. Other members who, um, yeah, like I mentioned, really talked up that narrative and started to frame that narrative as a very important one. That, that the effect that you're having on. On this family and that family, um,

Speaker A: is significant by recovering.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they were so. So we had to. You know, you're always working with vulnerable people and it's always a position of privilege to. To, um, like have people allow you to, to work and then being in a foreign country even more. So we're standing on the rubble, um, where people's, you know, deceased might be beneath our feet. Um, and so we're very cognizant of that. And so to have the people, family members nearby, um, with language barriers made it difficult for us to, you know, be respectful enough to the situation. Um, but again, um, apart from the narrative that was born up throughout the team, um, we got feedback from the local rescue agencies really complimenting the Australians, um, as being unique on the way that they went about their work, um, being very respectful, um, and being very mindful of how they cared for the deceased. Um, and I think they were some important elements in terms of turning those frustrations into feelings, um, that we were having a worthwhile effect, that we were, um, doing good things.

Speaker A: I'm. I'm going to tread carefully how I put this, but I know you're a dad of two young boys, and as I said, I can only imagine what it's like. Um, I, I get emotional watching TV shows where there's a kid in. You know, I'm talking a fictional TV show. Right. Um, how, you know, how do you, uh, manage that on a. You know, maybe even if. Just think about in the Turkey scenario, how did you, as a team? Because I'm sure you weren't the only father or parent. Like, was there a, A routine or a process or just. Or was it more just unsaid? You were just kind of. Yeah. How did you look after each other is what I'm. Or how do you look after yourself? How do you look after each other when you're faced with that? And, and, yeah, read, read into that. Any other trauma, tragedy, situation that you

Speaker B: turn up in, um, in the overseas deployment, um, being so acute, um, like our Team split into, into smaller teams. So um, when you caught back up over different mills or was staying in a campsite nearby, um, you're hearing about their stories. And as it turned out all of the teams were kind of dealing with a fairly significant um, recovery mission as it turned out. Um, and I think we all frame from our experience as firefighters, um, these incidents as like a detached response. Like we go and treat those families as if we would want our own family to be treated. Um, we try not to think too much about their stories and what's brought them there and the real tragedy of the situation, um, that when you're there for like immersed in it for a few weeks, um, becomes more and more difficult. Um, especially as some of your work sites, you know, you've got these um, you know, half fallen down buildings, a cross section of a living room or like a young child's room with a cot up there and you're kind of staring up at that cotton wondering what stories um, have gone through there before you. Um, and so I think because it was quite acute, we probably lent the other way from, from, from thinking, you know, to remove ourselves to kind of leaning into it a little bit. Um, and as we went on kind of connecting with the local people and you know, allowing um, you know, some, some tears to flow. Um, we even visited the side of a, um, a nursery where children had passed away and there's a pretty poignant photos of local artists who'd gone and um, tied balloons to different sections of the rubble. Each balloon signifying the loss of a child. Um, and so leaning into the emotions of it I guess allowed the process of understanding those emotions to begin. Um, and supporting each other, um, we talked about is really important. Um, you know those firefighters and people who made up the team, um, I guess had like knowingly, you know, put themselves in a situation like all emergency services do, where they can be affected by tragedy and potentially traumatic events. Um, and so it's um, up to them I think have a little personal responsibility to um, to set up kind of support networks to like, like their colleagues, um, but also like their families and professionals, um, to kind of interlace and, and give them the support they might need if they are challenged by those events.

Speaker A: Yeah. How, how, um, how direct or formal would that coaching be around setting up a network? Or is it more left to the. Like it's, you need a network and you leave it to the individual or is it like here's how to set it up with your partner or here's how to talk you know, I know you have debriefs after each operation for you, after each um, event for example, which is probably quite a formal thing. But then whether or not you access a psych, um, as a performative or a well being or perhaps both element. Um. Yeah. How direct is that sort of recommended or is it left to the individual?

Speaker B: Um, there's really clear um, opportunities to access those resources. And as firefighters and um, generally emergency services are quite lucky in having much um, better access than the average Australian to those services. Um, in terms of then um, being directed to access them. Um, that's more of an individual choice, um, which I agree with because individuals kind of have agency in what works for them. Um, I know some incredibly healthy people who have um, you know, developed incredibly healthy uh, coping mechanisms that, that may or may not involve um, different professionals. I personally, um, like you mentioned, have, have found use in using a psychologist as like a performance coach as well as a protective factor, um, should I ever need it. Um, and coming back from a particularly difficult incident, um, having that good relationship with the psychologist means that um, they already know who I am and how I operate. So I can kind of debrief on that incident in a way that I couldn't probably safely do with my partner,

Speaker A: um, or want to do. Right. Would you want to even share the things that you go through with your partner or is it part of you which. No, you don't need to know this or see this.

Speaker B: I think a lot of firefighters think that way. Um, my wife's been incredibly supportive and we've spoken to each other and, and, and develops you know, um, systems for. I'll open up and, and let her know uh, what's happened. But I don't need to tell her the you know, gruesome details of some of them, um, because there's a risk of vicarious trauma if I share too much details. Um, so she'll definitely be aware and she'll be super supportive of me in ways that we've discussed are helpful to me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so that's, that's how a partner or a family can, can be really helpful. Um, whereas a workmate can be helpful in different ways. If they were at the incident, they've obviously been aware of those details. So it's not as dangerous to share with them. Um, but they'll be going through their own, um, you know, decompression and response to that incident. So I might feel limited, you know, ability to share with them. Um, and they're at my workplace as well. So some Firefighters, although they can use their peers and colleagues as good sounding boards, um, they might feel a little bit hesitant to completely open up. Um, so the combination of having that colleague who was there, that family who knows you deeply, and that psychologist who is a detached kind of professional level of support is a great setup.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I really, like. I just picked up on that little bit of, um, your partner knows what you need in that, you know, that there's a. You've had that conversation where you're saying, hey, there are going to be times when, you know and I. And I just need.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think that, again, is a really mindful and deliberate way of going about these things, because I do think sometimes people just assume people will know, and then they get the shits when people don't give them what they need.

Speaker B: Yeah. How about that?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and like, being aware of. Of what your needs are is important, um, because, you know, I wouldn't be the first person to try to come home and soldier on. Um, when, if, um, I could have. Or someone could have identified. Hey, why don't you just take a couple of hours off this morning and just go for a walk or do whatever it is that kind of, um, helps you wind down and relax.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, wouldn't that be more useful than trying to push through whatever these negative thoughts are? Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. So if we, um, take it back to. So maybe I'm not, you know, just take it down one notch from. Well, or a couple of notches from the turkey scenario. Um, because actually, actually before we do that, I wanted just to, um, recognize the. The. The shift, I guess, um, in the way that your team was able to move from frustration of their role to actually getting a real sense of meaning from their role despite it. Not. Despite them not doing what it was that they came to do, if that makes sense. And, you know, um, that really tied in nicely with this idea I've been playing with at the moment called mental flexibility. So it's not just, you know, mental toughness. Just keep soldiering on, keep doing stiff upper lip, all that. Whereas mental flexibility allows us to recognize how things have changed, but allow us to reconnect with our values and recon in the way that you spoke about, you know, the. With custodians of this flag. So what. What are our behaviors? How's our way of showing up here?

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: More important than the actual. And this is gonna sound a bit crude when we're talking about life and death, but rather than the outcome per se, the manner in which we're doing it is the important piece.

Speaker B: Um, yeah. So you're highlighting like I guess our, Our concept of just focusing on the process rather than the results. Um, so like you said, as we, you know, became more realistic, that the narrative, um, the result narrative wasn't going to go the way that we'd hoped. Um, the process was really important and by focusing on the process it gave us agency, it gave us ability to do the things that we wanted and we found value in and that we um, had a sense of worth um, and achievement for doing. Um. And certainly throughout that deployment we were able to um, show up each day, um, with tools that were working correctly and going through processes even though, um, things became less and less likely to give, um, each of those, I guess survivable voids every last shot that they, they might be, um, survivable and we might get a good result from them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but I like. Yeah, talking like you've mentioned about um, I guess adaptability and, and flexibility, uh, in terms of like where to. For. For mental health for firefighters, um, and generally for people in Australia, like I think we're turning the corner that it's um. The mental health literacy, um, I guess is. Is improved. I think the stigma around mental health has been reduced. Um, and it's allowed people to. To kind of. Again, I feel it's really important that they have agency and they understand what works for them. Um, and that flexibility means that we can have negative thoughts and negative reactions to things, um, if we can name them, be um, aware of them, um, and hopefully come to understand that things aren't good and bad. Like this is a, isn't a Buddhist thought and stoicism really that it's just an experience. Um, and it's, it's not necessarily good or bad. It's just something that's happened. Um, and how do we want to like move on in our life best from here?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, that's also, you know, the acceptance commitment therapy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, which is that cognitive diffusion as in, you know, this has happened.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, it's neither good nor bad.

Speaker A: It is what it is.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and it's very different to the smaller stoicism which is just like repress it, keep going, you know, tough it out. It's just like let's be in it and amongst it, um, and be really practical in terms of getting the best out of ourselves.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I mentioned before, I just want to dial it back a little. A little bit from the, the magnitude of, of Turkey and come back to the. The day to day or week to week process of reviewing and recovery.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: You know, and I, I'd say they're probably, you know, two parts of a, the same really important process. How, how do you guys go about reviewing each and every event? Or do you only. And I know the answer to this, but I'm just setting you up. Like do you only review it when things go bad? Um, or, or how much of a habit do we make the review process and what does that look like? And then folding into that, how do you then recover to be able to go again?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and, and to answer the last part first is, is we want to recover, we want to go again and we want to be better for it. Um, if we talk about our incidents being high stakes or high pressure, um, the consequences are high. So we wouldn't want to um, make a mistake twice because that mistake should be, should be costly and we shouldn't, should uh, learn from, from what kind of things has caused it. Um, just as if we've done something well at a high consequence incident would really want to highlight the fact that that's gone well and sustain that for the next time. Um, so yeah, we do review and we, we do try to review consistently. Um, an issue with um, after an action. An after action review would be if someone didn't feel, you know, safe to speak up and kind of unashamedly explain their perspective and explain what they thought had happened, good and bad elements of it. Um, the risk might be that as a group we kind of don't really learn. We, we um, you know, excuse, um, things that have happened when we deep down know that we, you know, could have been a little bit better. Um, so running it consistently, good or bad, um, just makes everyone familiar with the process. Um, and it should hopefully make it everyone feel a little bit safer.

Speaker A: Um, do you think it does? So, you know, like we've said, like, you know, broad, broadly speaking, do you feel that, um, the psychological safety or that is, is that something that's worked on as much as the training? You know what I mean? Like, like are we as mindful of who's speaking up, who's not speaking up, what, when they do speak up, what are they talking about? Are they only talking about what they did well or are they, are they identifying room for improvement? Like have you got one eye on that or one ear on that as much as you have everything else?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, well, if you haven't, you should.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I think you probably sound like you've been in some. I know I have been in some reviews, and you've kind of realized it's not going to be very effectual, um, because we haven't been able to tease out all of those perspectives, including sometimes, you know, a. The elephant in the room that everyone knows was a significant factor, uh, good or bad. So by establishing psychological safety, which doesn't start by saying at the start of the review, all right, this isn't to point fingers. It starts way before that in the team. And it starts by review, after review. It starts after training session, after training session. Uh, it starts with the way we conduct ourselves and the attitudes and behaviors we display to our team members. They're all the things that make people feel generally safe. Um, so if and when the incident happens, they feel safe to. To try, um, and to put their best effort forward. And then after the incident, um, most people I work with are, um, really, you know, keen to start to unwrap it because that incidents we go to, again, we kind of split up and, and we've got some, um, you know, a lot of kind of factors that could confuse things or confuse perspectives. Um, so coming back into a room and explaining, here's what I did, and then Dan can explain what it looked like from the other side, and someone on the fire truck at the street level can explain, and you put together all the pieces of the puzzle and you start to. To realize how things actually occurred.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and again, we can have psychological safety because our goal, like our shared goal, is to. To put that fire out, to, to perform that rescue. Um, to be efficient in the way that we've operated. Um, so if there has been any inefficiencies, that's cool, we want to know about them. Um, because of the amount of chaos and confusion that can exist in the fireground, I would say there's a variability in outcomes. Um, you might have a fire that kind of burns down a building, um, and it would be explained that the firefighters had done a great job because it was such a raging fire that we're lucky that the surrounding buildings didn't burn down. Um, but in a different universe, there might be the same fire, and the crew's just a bit quicker out the door, and they're a bit better practice at getting their kit on, and they've taken the right kit up in the first place. Um, and they're well drilled at kind of dealing with running hose out on this type of level, and they actually contain that fire to the room that it started in, which in just a few minutes would burn down the Building, um, and being honest, whether that's the case or not is going to be the key to reviewing it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And the key to improvement.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like I said, that's a shared goal. So if we can be clear on that, that's kind of how we will improve.

Speaker A: Talk to me about physical recovery.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Because it's a taxing thing. What do you do, like, how important to you is when you, when you not on shift, you're actually physically, not just mentally in a master, but physically looking after yourself, getting some sleep. Like, what does that. Are you. I know you're a parent, so I don't know how much sleep you're getting.

Speaker B: Uh, uh, and, and sleep hygiene is one of those new ideas that, um. Wouldn't you know it, it's just like, the most important factor in all of our health. Health. Um, you know, if you're seeing a doctor, you know, no matter your ailment, the first question will be, how are you sleeping? So, um, working as a shift worker, uh, um, be it a firefighter or any emergency services, is generally unhealthy. Um, being up all night, um, so I guess prioritising recovery, um, does look like trying to catch up on sleep. Um, firefighters are quite lucky that they can, um, you know, have some downtime in between their shifts. So, um, you know, I, I know that a lot of them prioritize kind of coming home. We normally finish our shifts in the morning. So you come home and you start off the normal day with a little bit of, um, you know, physical activity, whatever the people like to do, and you juggle your family commitments. Um, but, yeah, catching up on, on your, Your sleep is the only thing that's going to make things better. Uh, firefighters are, uh, fit and healthy staff. Um, their kind of nutrition and sleep hygiene, um, and physical exercise around the shift work and the difficulty of, um, uh, like fatigue. Um, what they do beforehand is what protects them.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, as we sort of round out, I'm curious to, um, just dig into, like, you are pretty well read, you know, like, you, you know a lot of stuff. You're applying for a Churchill, uh, fellowship to study this in more depth. I'm wondering through all the sort of work and thinking and research you've done, how is the 2025 version of Sam Monahan the firefighter, different in the way he thinks about this stuff than the. The one who is maybe one or two years into his career?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, what, what I'd love is to think about a firefighter who starts in 2025 or in the next few years. Um, and through their training, um, they have integrated mental skills training. Um, as I mentioned, I've kind of developed a curiosity about it through, um, some imperfect practices and feeling overwhelmed and. And. And. And stressed. Um, and I think as a performance tool, um, which we know the kind of new generation of firefighters but. But generation of workers in general wants to have individual tailored performance plans that kind of meet their needs and mental skills. Is that frontier. Um, that. That's a huge opportunity, uh, for us to play with. Um. I think sports has um, you know, obviously worked well in the last 20 years to develop it and normalize it and to make uh, young athletes think this is the thing which is going to improve me. Um, similar to sports whose physical preparation is, you know, reach. It's just about peak. You know, the, The. The. The preparations are pretty much there and the firefighting operations are pretty much there. You know, like we're. We're quite efficient. We've got some really good equipment. Um, it. It should be able to work. So the frontier is what's between the ears. The frontier is the ability to develop the skills and techniques that we've discussed today. Um, which people can't like continue to develop through their careers. Um, and given the opportunity to. To learn that as they come into the fire brigade, um, their culture, like their kind of question of how they perform and looking at firefighting as like a tactical athlete, um is. Is. Is going to benefit the organization as a whole because you'll have a, you know, at some point, a. A tipping point of people who see the opportunity to. To you know, um, be growth, mindset improving, um, you know, never a finished product.

Speaker A: Yeah. Cool. Um, I mentioned there you quite well. Well read and question without notice what um. If you could recommend like or one book or what's one book that really fundamentally changed or really enhanced or you know, really promoted your way of thinking in and around, um, either this space or teamwork in general or high performance. What. What would you recommend? Um, you've only got one.

Speaker B: I'll have to peep behind. Get some tips definitely for um, like performance, um, and self talk. It's got to be the inner game of tennis.

Speaker A: Oh yes.

Speaker B: By Tim Galway. Yeah. So talking about self one which is, um, your mind which is judging, has thoughts, recognizes emotions as good and bad, keeps telling your body what to do. Yourself too is your body which is the doer. And if we can just kind of leave it alone to do things m. In its own way, uh generally can get the job done. Um and the analogy is thinking of a baby learning how to walk, and it never stops and says, put your left foot forward and then come on, stupid night, you're falling. Baby just gets up and keeps walking. And they. They figure it out. So if we can get out of our. Our heads. And it's amazing. This, um, tennis coach kind of became this awesome human performance guru.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's one of the seminal books in the field, isn't it? The. The Inner Game of Tennis. And you can read it without knowing anything about tennis, just to be clear. So I might put a link in the show notes that. The other thing I want to put in the link, uh, in the show notes would be, Sam, is if people are interested, I know you are keen to sort of share your stuff with, um, teams outside of the fire brigade, um, you know, wherever you might find them, whether that's corporate teams, sporting teams, school teams, whatever. What's the best way that people can just get hold of you and m. Make sure the link's in the show notes. Cool.

Speaker B: Appreciate that, Dan. Um, I think through LinkedIn at the moment be the best way to contact me before the, uh, website's up and running, whenever that happens.

Speaker A: All right, awesome. All right, well, make sure there's a link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. But, um, Sam, thanks, um, for taking time out your day to come and chat. Um, I'm really glad we've connected and I'm looking forward to staying connected and doing some shared learning as we. As I keep digging into this space. Thanks very much, mate.

Speaker B: Awesome, mate. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: So, as I mentioned there, we'll put the link to Sam's LinkedIn profile and also a link to Timothy Galway's book the Inner Game of Tennis in the show notes. As we always say, if you found that conversation worthwhile, there is a fair chance that someone you know would also find it worthwhile. So please feel free to share this as far and as wide as you can in your networks. Also, if you've got a question for an upcoming Q and A episode, or perhaps you've got a suggestion for a guest that we might get on to. The Habits of Leadership podcast, or indeed, you're just interested in the work we do, then head over to habitsofleadership.com and all the information is there for you. But until our next episode, if you haven't already, please take a. A moment to, like, subscribe, maybe even comment on the podcast wherever you listen. But until next time, thanks for listening. Take care. Take it easy.