099: Teachers Cry Too with Sue Webb

Speaker A: I'm Dan Hasler and I would love you to join me and some of the world's best athletes on the Play Fearless podcast. We'll make funning. Welcome to Play Fearless.

Speaker B: Out of all the years and all the days that I've surfed, uh, that's the only time I felt like I was ever in danger.

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Speaker C: It's one thing to try being number one. It's another thing when you become number one.

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Speaker C: Welcome to the Habits of Leadership podcast, brought to you by Cut Through Coaching, helping leaders and their teams to thrive professionally and personally.

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to episode 99 of the Habits of Leadership podcast. My name is Dan Hasler from Cut Through Coaching, and joining me today is, is me old mate, Mr. Tim Perkins. Perko, how are you today, sir?

Speaker B: Never better, Daniel. What a cracking day to be alive in Sydney, Australia. How are you, my friend?

Speaker A: You can't complain, can you? You can't. You could, you could. But come on, really.

Speaker C: Come on, really?

Speaker A: It's been a while. It's been a while since we, uh, put on the cans and, uh, had a chat, and I feel like we're sort of. I'm cheating a bit here because we're not really going to have a chat because. What have you been up to, Perko?

Speaker B: We're not. We're not going to have a chat, as it turns out. Daniel, I'm going to give you the flick today. I know you are hoping to have a bit of a chat today, but I've actually found someone far more interesting to have a chat with. Someone who's been through the ups and downs of life, uh, of late. And she's actually written a book about it. Her name's Sue Webb and she's written a book called Teachers Cry Too. And it tells the story of her descent into burnout. Um, and it tells a lot more than that. It tells about her passion for her career as an educator and some of the things that can happen to people and then the journey that she's been through on her way out of burnout. And, uh, I think there's some really good lessons in here for all of us. Some great learning to do about self management, self care, uh, and also ultimately, a very positive story about moving out of burnout and back into the career that she really loved.

Speaker A: Yeah, cool, Perko. I'm looking forward to hearing this. So, um, I'm going to make myself a Cup of tea and let's jump into the chat.

Speaker B: All right. It's a total pleasure today to have Sue Webb here with me to talk about her book, Teachers Cry Too. It's, um, it's really lovely. We appreciate you coming down, sue, from the Sunshine coast down to Sydney to our studio down here to talk about this book that you've written. I'm not going to give too much away at the very outset, but you are, and have been for a long time, a high school teacher. Tell us a little bit about the Sue Webb story, a little bit of the background as how you became a teacher and why it is that you do what you do.

Speaker C: Sure. And thank you for the invitation to be here. It's really important, I think, to talk about our work and, uh, the joys, the ups and downs of it and the complexity of it. I first first started teaching in 1990 in a. What would be, by today's standards, a fairly small regional school in South Australia, and loved it. From the moment, from the very first day, I loved it. I think it was a good fit for me because I've always had an interest in the way kids learn. Uh, and I've been a keen observer, I think, of, um, learning styles and, um, what education can do for young people. I also have a love of my subject, which is English literature. So it was a. It was a great fit for me. Um, and I think looking back in those early years, I was probably given more opportunities in terms of leadership than perhaps I would normally have been given in city schools. Uh, in regional areas, um, staff can sometimes be a little bit harder to, especially these days, a little bit harder to get. And so opportunities came my way, which at the time felt right in retrospect. Now I do wonder whether perhaps I jumped into some of those leadership opportunities a bit early, before I'd really had time to master the craft of being in the classroom. Uh, and so I found myself juggling leadership roles quite early in my teaching career, um, probably while I was in truth still learning to be a practitioner.

Speaker B: It's one of the interesting things about leadership in education in that people who show themselves to be useful, uh, as teachers, uh, and sane as human beings and capable people, often get promoted into leadership positions in schools, perhaps prematurely, as it might be the case in your case. Um, and then certainly without the adequate training that actually says, okay, you were really good at that thing, so let's promote you to something very different to that thing and see how you go as a complete novice in that thing. And schools certainly do it in the hope that you'll be as great there as you were in the classroom. Where did that leave you? Sort of. What age were you when you got your first leadership position?

Speaker C: Yeah, I took on the head of English faculty in my third year of teaching. Uh, and I think in looking back, I probably didn't do a lot of leading. I probably did a lot of managing. Uh, and I think you're right. We assume that if people are good in the classroom, they've got good relationships, they're competent, they know their subject, they know their area. Uh, and then the next progression is a leadership position. The problem with that, I think, can be that we can sometimes set people up for failure if we don't give them adequate support and training and coaching in those leadership positions. Because we can't just, we can't just promote someone to a leadership position and expect that they, that they know what they're doing. I think in schools there is certainly a place for learning on the job. There's a lot of that in schools and that's what I did. Um, but there was very little in terms of explicit coaching and training around managing and leading staff. Um, and so that was a pretty steep learning curve and I made a lot of mistakes. Um, uh, I think there's probably a bit of a growing awareness of the need for that now. I would hope, certainly in schools. Um, but I do think with we, like I said, there's a lot of managing in schools. We call them leadership positions, but there's sometimes a lot more managing that goes on. A, because of time constrictions and B, because of, uh, people. People haven't been taught or skilled or coached in those areas. So there's a bit of a skill deficit actually.

Speaker B: When you talk about managing versus leading without putting you on the spot, what are some of the differences that you consider? What are you identifying there? That, you know, you might have been a good manager, but perhaps not a good leader. You're very young, you're in the mid M20s, you know, you've got a leadership position, you're leading people who presumably are, ah, older than you, more experienced than you, and yet you're saying it was more of a managing that you're doing. How do you differentiate between managing and leading?

Speaker C: I think when in a school context, in education context, management refers to being able to, um, you know, manage things like making sure your assessment tasks are out on time, running the department properly, uh, making sure that people across the criteria, they know what they have to teach, they've got the resources ready to teach it. Um, uh, sometimes it means stepping into, um, issues that present, staff issues that present and staff management. When we talking about leadership, I see it as a very different thing. So when the very word leadership infers that we are leading people to something. So my question as a leader would be, well, what, what do I want to lead people to? How do I want to grow my team? Leadership is very much about growth. And if we don't spend time with people looking at their professional growth goals, what we end up with in schools are, ah, people who are busy but bored. They feel like they know what they're doing and they might have, they might be very competent what they're doing and they've been doing it for a number of years, but they get stuck there and they start to look around and go, well, what's next? Um, and so I think when we're, when we're leading people, it's about really knowing where their strengths are, uh, where they might, you know, what, what have they got their eyes on next? Where do they want to end up? Is there a career pathway for them? Um, how can we support them in that, in that kind of, um, in that pathway. Uh, and I think, you know, leadership is about, um, not just knowing what needs to be done. Management is about doing things. But I think leadership is more about, am I doing the right things to help the people in my community grow and thrive and actually do things that they don't even realise themselves that maybe they can do?

Speaker B: What I'm hearing there is a nice differentiation that maybe management is about maintaining. It's about keeping the lid on things, maintaining the status quo. And leadership is really about growth, it's about creating a new status quo. It's about really tapping into the resources of the people that you are leading and working out how to best utilise them towards growth for the organisation.

Speaker C: Yeah, Ah, that's right. And moving people forward. I have a lot of conversations with principals and I know that this is a common frustration in that, you know, they have a position as school leaders, but in fact they're frustrated because they're not able to do the leading that they want to do because they're spending so much time in people management or, um, they're spending so much time on compliance or, um, policy making and that kind of stuff. And I'm not sure that that is really, um, leading people where they want to do. They can see growth opportunities for their school community, but sometimes they're thwarted in that because there's other stuff keeping Them from. From. From achieving it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So with some of that as a bit of a background, I'm sitting here with a copy of a book in my hand with a quite, um, really powerful, actually cover image of an eye, a human eye, quite a green eye. Not totally dissimilar to your own green eyes, sir. Um, with a big tear dropping down. It's a watercolor, um, artwork, splotchy, colors leaking, um, the way watercolors can. And your book's called Teachers Cry Too. I'm not going to read the subtitle at the moment. We'll come to that in a little while. Tell me why on earth someone who loves teaching and someone who's been put into leadership positions in schools, loves working with kids, loves school environments, loves community, uh, and have continued to love that for a very long period of time. Why would you write a book called Teachers Cry Too?

Speaker C: Well, for a start, I did a lot of it at the time that I was writing the book. Hence the title I love.

Speaker B: Was that typical of you? Are you a crier?

Speaker C: No, I'm not. It was very out of character and that was. We'll talk about it perhaps a little bit later. But that was one of the signs that made me stop and think, what's going on? I'm not. This is not who I usually am. So something's changed. Um, the artwork that you mentioned, I fell in love with that artwork because if you look at the eye quite closely, you'll see that there's a reflection of a window. And I think that captures for me very nicely the purpose of education. It does provide a window into the future and it is a deeply reflective, um, profession. Uh, and so that's. That's kind of why I really liked the colours. And I think it does capture the essence of what education's about.

Speaker B: Before you go there, is it fair to say that if you wrote a book about your experience as an educator maybe a year or two prior to this, it would have had a very different cover artwork and it would have had a very different title. Is that fair to say?

Speaker C: I think it would have, yeah, definitely.

Speaker B: Um, but something happened for you, right? October 2016?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Tell us what happened.

Speaker C: Something happened. It was a very specific event. Uh, and it led to, um. It led to a real struggle that I had with, uh. I developed a love hate relationship with my work. And so I loved the work that I did every day with young people and still do, but I had grown to hate the job that I was doing. Uh, and I didn't understand that I had to reconcile that. So, um, what it ended with, I guess was a, uh, an episode that I had in, as you said, in October. I was driving my daughter to kayaking on a Saturday morning. It was a very normal Saturday morning. Nothing in particular of note had happened. And as I was driving her, I had um, ah, what I now know as a severe panic attack. And that was really a shutdown response. Ah. So as we were driving along, I suddenly had no idea where we were going and couldn't remember where I needed to be, couldn't work out how to get back. Um, my senses became fractured. So that although, although Kate was talking to me, she was sitting in the passenger seat and I was aware that she was talking to me. I couldn't work out what she was saying. I couldn't actually make sense of the words. Um, and I couldn't even control myself enough to be able to say, pull the car over. I knew that it was dangerous. I knew that I had a feeling of not being safe. I had a feeling of I need to stop the car so that we can both get out. But I just couldn't do it. Um, I. All I could do really was focus on staying in my lane to minimize the risk. And I don't know how long I drove like that. Eventually I recognized a landmark and I was able to get the car, I was able to pull the car over. Um, and I don't remember getting home that day at all. Now that was really the beginning of a four year spiral, um, of mental health decline. Something that I hadn't experienced before. I didn't understand what it was. I couldn't make any sense of it. Um, the next thing I remember that day actually is waking up, is being on the, on the, uh, bathroom floor and I was crying. My husband came in and found me. Uh, and so I told him what had happened and he said, oh, you know what, has anything happened? Has anything happened at work? And you know, I kind of said, well, something happens at work every day, but nothing out of the ordinary, nothing that I hadn't dealt with previously. Nothing, um, that I would describe as being particularly stressful or out of the blue or memorable. Uh, and so I think what was doubly frightening about that experience is that I didn't understand what was happening to me. Um, I knew I wasn't functioning well. Uh, and because I didn't get the medical, you know, the professional help that I should have at that time, because I let it go so long, unfortunately my symptoms worsened. Uh, and some of the behaviors that I was displaying in that next four years were really quite troubling behaviors. Um, you know, I developed OCD type, uh, behaviors. I was paranoid about those.

Speaker B: How did they manifest?

Speaker C: Yes. So I, I think they developed really from this obsession that I developed a paranoia around safety. My own safety, my children's safety, my students safety. Um, and so things would happen, like, uh, we had a pool at the time we were living, um, we had a backyard pool. And I became obsessed about a child wandering in and drowning in the pool. Why was I obsessed about that? Perhaps there had been, um, incidents on the news about incidents like that happening. But, um, so I would, I would check that pool gate, I think 20 times a day, and I'd have to go outside and I'd jiggle it back and forth to make sure that it was latched properly. And then, um, I would go out at night. So I'd go to bed, go, oh, no, I. I can't. I have to go out and check the pool gate. I have to go out and check the pool gate. And I would check it, check it, check it, because I was just so worried that a child might get in there and drown. Um, one of the more troubling ones that I think back on now is that there was a news report at the time of a baby who had been left in a hot car and had died in a hot car. And I remember thinking, I don't know, how is that survivable as a parent? I can't imagine the tragedy of that. And so the overthinking began. And I. Then I kept. Then I called them in the book, the imaginings, uh, the imaginings that I had no control over and that were scary because I didn't know where they were going to take me next. And so that was one of the obsessions I developed, is that I'd be driving in the car and I'd always check back, look in the back seat, look in the back seat, look in the back seat all the time. And when I pulled up at work, I'd get out of the car and I'd open the back door and check the back seat, because what if a random child was found their way into my car and I didn't know they were there and they died in a hot car. So these are bizarre, out of character, troubling, um, obsessions that I developed. I did things like, I timed how long it would take me to run from my bedroom into the kids bedrooms to get them in case there was a fire in the house. Seven or eight Seconds it took me. And I'd say, right, okay, how far can I get in 7 seconds? How far can I get in 6 seconds? Can I get them out of the house? I did things like, um, I put rocks outside their bedrooms windows in case I needed to get to them and I couldn't get to them. So these were just irrational, um, imaginings and thoughts that I really found difficult to control.

Speaker B: Wow. It sounds terrifying. In the vernacular of young people these days, that sounds like a lot. It's a lot. Um, and I'm just watching you as you're speaking here. I mean, I can sense that this is coming back to you very strongly, um, from a few years ago as you go back through those obsessions that you started to develop. What I'm interested in, Sue? Well, one of the things I'm interested in many. But one of the things I'm interested in is how different was the sue prior to October 2016? Uh, and what was your relationship with work like compared to the sue as a result of that dreadful and terrifying panic attack you had, uh, with your daughter in the car with you? Um, yeah. Tell us about the two. The Sioux before and the Sioux after.

Speaker C: It's almost difficult to reconcile that. It's like being two different people. So prior to that, um, I think one of the things you learn as a school leader. I mean, you learn a lot as a school leader, but you certainly learn, um, to diffuse situations. You're always stepping into difficult, problematic, sometimes, you know, very highly complex and emotive situations with families. And as a leader, you need to be calm and measured and understanding and always all of those things. Uh, and I think that's why I. That's why I kind of found myself in a number of different leadership positions in schools. In fact, I triaged and referred families to the very support services that I probably should have accessed and didn't. Um, and I think when. When the book was released and people read it, people. People who knew me were quite shocked, you know, and they would say things to me. But, sue, you were always so calm. Um, we would never have picked it. I was. You know, I made decisions. I think, uh, you know, I think my judgment always was mostly accurate. Um, I was able to make decisions. Uh, I was able to consult people. But after the. After the breakdown, all of that changed. So the decisions that I was able to make quite easily in my work suddenly became really difficult, and memory loss was a big thing. Um, speech is often. Language and speech is often one of the first things to go in situations like this. And that's what I really struggled with too. So if I had to ring a parent or if I had to ring someone in a professional capacity, I scripted what I needed to say before I picked up the phone. Because I had to work so much harder at being articulate. I couldn't engage in off the cuff banter. It was just beyond me. Um, I had to write everything down, even the names of people that I knew very well and worked with closely. I couldn't remember their names in the moment then. It's not that I didn't know who they were, it's just I couldn't bring to mind their name. And so my husband, um, in social situations that's, that can be embarrassing. Right. So my husband learned to uh, whenever he sensed a hesitation from me, he'd jump in quickly and he'd shake his hand. He's oh, I'm James, how are you?

Speaker B: And it must have been terrifying because I'm guessing at this stage you must be thinking and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to take this to crazy town but you know, maybe even that you've got a brain injury and that maybe there won't be a way back from this M Was that a sense that you had?

Speaker C: It really was. And because I didn't know what I was dealing with, I even, I thought, you know, obviously you can't miss signs like that. I knew something was wrong, um, but I didn't understand it and there were times when I thought, have I got early onset dementia? Is that what's going on? It just didn't make any sense because how could you go from one person from, you know, from that person who was pretty competent, I think fairly successful in my career, um, dealing with a whole lot of different informations and often of a highly sensitive and complex nature. And I did all of that in my stride to suddenly not being able to get myself to work.

Speaker B: Having to write post it notes for your friends names.

Speaker C: That's right. Extraordinary. Yeah, yeah. Um, doing things like, you know, I'd find myself in one room of the house not remembering how I got there. Um, so it wasn't just something that affected my work life. It, it affected all aspects of my life. Um, um, I wasn't functioning well at home, the kids, because my children were younger teenagers then. And I remember one morning, Michael saying to me mum, um, I'm going to buy my own washing basket and put it in my room because I'm m going to wash my own clothes so that my uniforms are ready for the next day because I just wasn't doing it. I couldn't do it and I didn't even realize I wasn't doing it just wasn't done. And thing, you know, that people would find wet washing clumped at the bottom of the washing machine that had been there for three days that I just completely forgotten about. And all of this is not my normal. Yeah, you know, um, so, yeah, it was terrifying sometimes and I thought maybe I've got the flu or maybe I'm getting a virus. And um, I just didn't put it together with what I now know to be burnout. Yeah, I didn't know enough about burnout at the time. I'd certainly heard the word but I didn't understand what it was and I didn't, I didn't understand how the signs manifested.

Speaker B: So as well as being, you know, as we're talking about the pre sue and the post Sioux, as well as being highly competent and capable and mature and you know, professional, you're also very fun loving. M. Uh, you know, and that really comes out in the book. You're a bit of a prankster. You had good mates at work. Um, tell us about that shift as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, that was. You're right. I think, you know, one of the things I love about schools is that ready made communities, uh, and there is a lot of camaraderie amongst staff and we do, we, you know, we played, I used to play jokes on staff all the time. Um, and there are a number of examples of that. Um, and one of the things that when I lost the ability to do that, it was very isolating and I withdrew, I withdrew socially and that became lonely. Um, so that there was no, you know, the warmth that you get from joining in and sharing a banter and sharing jokes and you know, know just that, that, that warmth of connection, well, that was eroded. Uh, and I found myself, I did a very good job actually when I look back, of isolating myself and withdrawing socially.

Speaker B: Um, which wasn't the natural Sue.

Speaker C: No, no, it wasn't. We, yeah, we, we, we big social people really. Um, yeah, we played lots of tricks on each other in the staff room and it was, you know, it was fun. In fact, one of the, I remember, uh, now just talking, that one of my colleagues said, I really miss hearing your laugh. I suppose I've got a bit of an in, you know, a bit of a, what do you call it? Idiosyncratic laugh. And in the staff meeting, staff meetings in the morning, there'd be A few jokes flying around. And I guess my laugh was something that people, People kind of remembered. But that stopped, uh, and I became very quiet. And I stopped because I didn't trust my intuition, because I didn't trust my judgment, and because, um, I'd lost my, really, my ability to be articulate. I stopped contributing. I didn't participate in meetings. Um, I stopped sharing ideas. Um, and that really served to increase that sense of isolation. And there's something wrong with me. There's something different about me. And, um, and that. That was lonely. That was a. That was a lonely part of the journey.

Speaker B: It's interesting with the tears. I want to, um, with your permission, I want to. And, um, we've shared these with each other before. But I, um, I want to read to you a couple of quotes from your book that really stood out to me. And I think these illustrate very strongly for me because when I read your book, I knew it was a book about burnout. Um, I'd read some of the stuff that you posted online, and you and I had talked on the phone and was really looking forward to reading the book. But I felt like I knew where it was going. What I wasn't ready for was one. I mean, it's great that an English teacher writes a book. You're a beautiful writer. It's, uh, you know, it's a very, it's. It's a really well put together book.

Speaker C: Uh, thank you.

Speaker B: It's. Yeah, it really was very enjoyable, uh, to read your book, despite the heaviness of it. Um, but what I read was two things. One was someone who's clearly had a very significant episode, which now, when you backward map, it was a panic attack, a strong panic attack that led to four years, as you say, of real struggle and challenge, where you became a very different person to the person you'd previously been. Good news. And spoiler alert, she's back, folks. She's back. But we'll get to that in a minute. But I just want to read you a couple of things that, um, I underlined in your book. And I'd love to get your. Your take on how you feel when you hear these back now. And this is. This is feelings that you had five or six years ago. Is that right? Five or six years ago, Yeah. I teetered on the edge of a mental fragility that threatened to unravel my comfortable and ordered life. I've been crying all afternoon and don't know why. It's out of character for me. I'm edgy, distracted, and can't shake the sense of dread that descends like toxic smog. Having once felt the synergy of working alongside my colleagues, I now felt estranged from them. Sorry, you mentioned intuition a minute ago. Teaching is so much about intuition. And now that I no longer trust mine, I was nervous about stepping into unpredictable environments. So I opted out by ringing in sick. I felt like a coward and a liar each time I rang in sick because I hadn't accepted that I was sick. Perhaps the reason I felt like someone had died was because the old me was gone. The person who laughed freely and often, the person who gleefully planned stuff from pranks seemed like a ghost of the past. There's more here. I could go on and on. What are you. What's going through your mind and body when you hear me read back to you some of your words?

Speaker C: Yeah, there was a feeling of grief. Uh, and I do talk about grief in the book, um, because at one stage, my husband came in and found me crying. And he said, look, you know, he was trying to give me some perspective, and he said, nobody's died. And I said to him, so why does it feel like someone has? And what I realize now is that I was grieving for the old me because I felt like I'd lost that person. Uh, uh, they were unidentifiable. And I wondered, am I ever gonna. Am I gonna get that back again? Am I ever gonna be that person again? Um, so there was a feeling of grief. There was a feeling of, especially in those first few months, absolute terror. Because I, you know, that. That when you feel as though you're losing your mind, uh, especially if there was a reason for it, I probably could have made. If there was a reason that I could have put, you know, if some. Something had happened, if there'd been an event that I could have put my finger on it, I probably could have understood it. But I. Nothing seemed to stand out for me. And so I just didn't understand where that was coming from. And that was quite terrifying. Um, so that comes back to me as you read. Uh, and that also being unsettled every second of the day, not having a moment where you feel at peace, where you can relax, where you can go, oh, yeah, um, I'm safe. It's going to be okay. There wasn't a time like that, that took a very long time to get there. And so when you are living in uncertainty and fear and. And. And this dread, this. This. This. That you can almost feel like a punch in the guts, that dread that you Think I don't know where it's coming from. And if I don't know where it's coming from, then how can I get rid of it? How can I make it go away? Um, so there was that constant nausea and fear. That fear was such a big thing for me and it almost became like a. It almost became like a real. You know, you personify fear. Um, and I was, I. I walked in fear all the time. Ah. And I wasn't sleeping. And of course, anybody who's sleep deprived knows that that makes everything worse. Um, I was, I was, you know, I'd go to sleep feeling that fear. As soon as I open my eyes in the morning, or sometimes three o' clock in the morning, it would be. There was that constant, um, the constant accompanying feeling that I couldn't shake. And I, as you said, you wonder, am I. Is this ever. Is this like the new normal now?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Am I ever going to recover from this? And if I don't, what does that mean? What does that mean for me and my family? What does that mean for my marriage? Um, what does that mean for my kids? What does that mean? Can I, Can I work? Can I. You know, there were times where I went to work thinking, am I actually in a stable enough state of mind to be caring for young people? I really questioned that. And that actually prompted my decision to move back from leadership position because I didn't trust that. Uh, and you need to have good judgment when you're working with young people, especially these days, because their needs are complex. And so we need to be in a good place ourselves to be able to step into those complexities and be able to support young people in the way they needed to. They need you to. Uh, and at that time, I wasn't capable of doing that and I recognised that. Um, and so I resigned my position. I didn't tell them why. I used the excuse that my husband worked away a lot and I had teenagers, which was the truth, but not the reason that I stepped back from that position. Um, and what I found is that that helped for a little while, so I stepped back for leadership and went full time into the classroom. And that helped for a little while, but not for long. And so then I went, uh, so then I stepped back from full time in the classroom to part time in the classroom. And that worked for a little while, but not for long. And what I gradually realized through the process of piecing it all together in the process of recovery is that wasn't the positions that I was doing. So Much as the way that I was working. And no matter what position I did, I worked the same way. And so the cycle kept repeating. Um, as I've said, I know a lot more now and when you know better, you can do better. So I'm much more aware of the signs and the mistakes that I made that kind of led me down that path.

Speaker B: Um, this podcast. A lot of people who are listening to this podcast are educators, but a lot of people aren't educators. Um, you mentioned the hidden cost of keeping it together for teachers. There are a lot of educators, whether they're leaders or classroom teachers, whatever their role is. But there are sports people listening to this podcast, there are people, uh, in the commercial world listening to this podcast. There's all sorts listening to this podcast. And maybe they're starting to hear some things that you're saying here going, oh, wow, that's interesting. There's a few indicators here for me as well.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, maybe I haven't got anywhere near that point yet of that dreadful, terrifying panic attack you had while you were driving, but maybe they're starting to see some things here. Tell me about the hidden cost of keeping it together.

Speaker C: Uh, when we, it's got to do with something that we call emotion suppression. Uh, and the thing with, uh, teachers is that we need to um, mask how we're really feeling on a constant basis because we're working with children and we're often working with dysregulated children. And so it's very important for us to be, for teachers to be calm and measured and in control even when on the inside they might be feeling anything but that. Because the very qualities that make us good teachers, the ability to care for kids, to connect with them, to show compassion, to empathise to them, to keep them safe. Yes, these are, uh, qualities that good teachers have, but they're also the qualities that can really make the job tough if we don't have the strategies and the support networks in place to deal with it. You know, so it's that, it's that pushing away of your own emotional response, almost suspending that emotional response so that you can step in to be what the other kids need you to be. Uh, and that if you don't deal with that, of course that builds up, um, so that emotion suppression is a real risk factor, uh, for burnout, especially if it's cumulative and over a period of time, the student who um, is aggressive or violent in the classroom, you push that emotional response aside, uh, and you maintain calm and you be Professional. It's that professional facade, it's that constant mask wearing. Um, and what I've realized now, of course, is that, uh, you know, you've got to grieve sometime. You have to be able to process those emotions for yourself so that you can reset. Uh, and I hadn't done it. I hadn't allowed myself to do that. Uh, uh, and I find young teachers are doing it as well. And especially what I am aware of is that when you're a young teacher, it's, it often requires, um, you to relocate. So of course, you know, you're trying to get your head around a new job and it's a big job and it's intense work and you're away from your support networks and you're away from what's familiar to you. Uh, and so.

Speaker B: And you might be 22 years old.

Speaker C: Exactly. You don't have the life experience to be able to, as I didn't, you know, that first year.

Speaker B: Although your book is essentially about your burnout story, the majority of it, from my reading of it, subtly tells the story of how much you love your students and how much you love the profession.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Teaching, education. It's very, very high on purpose. Do you think that loving your work too much can be a factor in burnout?

Speaker C: I, uh, think work enmeshment is something that is a term we use to describe the risk factor there. Where, um, when I'm working with teachers now, one of the things I ask them to consider is who are you if you're not a teacher? Now if people struggle to answer that question, it's an indication that their work has become their identity. And there's a real blurring there of, um, who am I as a person, in my case, who am I as a mother, who am I as a wife, who am I as a teacher? And it's easy to get lost in that work, which is what happened to me. I got lost. I lost who I was. Um, because the work can be consuming and overwhelming. I think it's very possible, as I do now. I think it's very possible we can love our work and maintain our own identity. Yeah, that's so important. Um, so can you. I still love teaching. In fact, I teach most days. I found a way, very, very lucky now that I found a way to be able to keep doing the work I love, uh, but do it in a way that I feel like for the first time in a long time I've got control over the way I work rather than the other way around. Um, so yes, love your work, but don't let it consume you and don't let it control who you are.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's very interesting and it ties in very closely. Uh, a lot of listeners to this will recognize some of the work that ah, Dan and I have been doing with you in recent months around that idea of identity foreclosure, which is I am what I do and really being able to decouple who we are from what we do. And a lot of that is built around a really clear understanding of what our values are, um, and to really map out and be very deliberate about recognizing who we actually are, um, in isolation of what we actually do. So that if what we do is taken away from us for whatever reason. So it might be a footy player who gets injured. You know, there's that great, um, Netflix doco on Naomi Osaka, um, who had all sorts of struggles where she really talks about the idea that if I'm not a great tennis player, who am I? You know, if I start to lose, who am I? People all identify me as a tennis player. If Sue Webb isn't a highly functional, capable school leader, who is she?

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: And if that's not clear in our own minds, we're really become, it's a very fragile thing. Tell me, sue, on a slight variation from this note, I've worked with someone else very closely in a one on one capacity in relation to burnout for a teacher, uh, a fairly early career teacher, seven or eight years into her career. The thing that you have, one of the things you have in common with her is constant uncontrolled tears. And as I've said to you off air before, this, uh, person tells me that she essentially cried for a year. The smallest trigger, and it was uncontrollable. In her case, perfectionism played a real role in her demise as a teacher. You've come back to teaching. There is no way she's going back to teaching. She's realized that it's a very unhealthy relationship for her. Now I will come to the subtitle of your book, which was a story of both being trapped by the bell and saved by it. Because you have gone back to teaching and it's been very therapeutic for you. Um, and I imagine particularly to rediscover that the thing that had been taken away from you wasn't gone for good. That you're able to come back to it and grow through it. But I just want to touch on this perfection idea, perfectionism. And I want to add to It a desire to please. So to what extent do you think that perfectionism and maybe coupled with a desire to please might play a role in a descent into burnout?

Speaker C: Uh, one of the other high risk factors for burnout is what I call a perfection, a perfectionistic profile, perfectionist profile. Uh, that idea that everything has to be done, you know, to the top standard. And I think that's, that's really kind. That's the way I was working, as

Speaker B: a lot of teachers do that.

Speaker C: Exactly right. And that relentless work ethic that comes with it. So, you know people who will mark until midnight or 1 o' clock or 2 o' clock in the morning, if that's what it takes to get the job done, then that's what they'll do. Um, yeah, I think perfectionism M is a real problem. There's a great story that I heard about, um, work modulation that was done with a study of architects. Um, and it helped me to understand that. Uh. Do you want me to tell you about the story? Please do. I actually quite like this, I actually quite like this study. So it was in 1974. There was a, um, researcher. He was a researcher in creativity, I think his name was McKinley. McKinley Study of Architects, I think. And so he wanted to know, he took a group of architects and he wanted to know, um, the group of architects that he looked at were the top in their field. They were the ones that were winning awards and they were, they were, um, they were, they were very creative. And so he looked at those and he said, what makes them different? What are they doing differently than perhaps other colleagues who are not winning awards? Um, have they got different attributes? Is it something that they're doing in terms of the approach to their work? And so he interviewed them and he studied them. And one of the things that he looked at was their past, uh, academic records at university, expecting that they would be getting A's across the board. In fact, what he found was that their, their grades were quite, um, erratic. Right. So some are getting A, some are getting B, some getting, you know, getting A's, B, C's in their subjects. Um, and through the interview process, what became apparent is that the architects who are at the top of their field had learned to modulate their efforts into what actually mattered for them and what was going to bring them the best results. So the subjects that they had to work hard in, uh, sorry, the subjects that they needed to achieve well in, um, the subjects that were meaningful and purposeful and were going to get them where they wanted to be. They got A's in those subjects, but the other subjects that they just kind of had to tick a box, they didn't invest their time and their energy into that, and they got Cs. And so what they did was they. They effectively. They become adept at recognizing what elements of their work make a difference and what elements of their work are worth investing their time and energy in. And what elements. Can I just do my okayest? And that's enough. I don't have to be the best.

Speaker B: Does it hurt you as an English teacher to say my okayest? Is that, uh, this word that you've just created?

Speaker C: I love it, and I use it with my kids all the time.

Speaker B: Just give me your okayest. Kids.

Speaker C: That's right. Sometimes your okayest is good enough.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and sometimes we hear university students talk about that. Ps get degrees, which is, you know, a problematic term in one sense, but I think once you start talking about that, uh, effort, modulation, uh, it's really

Speaker C: wise, and I think we need to get past this. Aiming for perfection. One of the things I tell my students is I'm not after perfection. I'm after progress. Aim for progress. Because the thing is, once you aim for if you got. If you want. Very few of us reach perfection. None of us get to know when we get there. Nobody. Yeah. How do you know when you get. How do you know when you get.

Speaker B: Your husband would disagree, because he would probably. As a big Panthers fan, he'd probably say that Nathan Cleary is getting pretty close to perfection. But I can tell you that Nathan Cleary would say that he's much more interested in growth than he is in perfection.

Speaker C: There you go. That's interesting. Yes. My husband, who, uh, was in Vegas, that was his 50th birthday present, watching his Panther playing Vegas. It was absolutely worth it. He loved it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um. Yeah. So I think perfectionism's overrated. It's exhausting and really, like. And then let's assume that if you reach perfection, then what? Then where have you got to go after that? You know? So, um. So I think, you know, we need to get away from this idea that. That. That aiming for perfection is where we need to go, and instead say, I need to aim for progress. Um, and I think that's somehow liberating. And the people pleasing that you talked about, um, you know, that's another characteristic of. Really, teachers are pretty conservative people on the whole. I don't know about you and the teachers that you work with, but I actually find that as a profession, we're pretty conservative. Uh, we're rule keepers on the whole. Um, people who rock the boat don't tend to last that long in schools before they either get sick of it and move on or they're moved on.

Speaker B: But let's stop talking about me. Yeah, keep going.

Speaker C: Um, and so compliance. See, schools, schools depend on compliance. You know, they need to maintain harmony

Speaker B: and sometimes, might I say, we mistake compliance for engagement all the time, or vice versa.

Speaker C: That's exactly right. That compliance student who flies under the radar and it looks like we love those students. And then you realize m actually they're not. So that people pleasing. Um, I, uh, do think our school systems and our cultures in schools are a little bit geared to rewarding compliance in students and staff, actually. Uh, and often when you are not that compliant staff member, you're labeled as being negative or a troublemaker or a whinger or, you know, a problem. Um, and in fact, then what we end up with in schools are, ah, echo chambers of the same viewpoints.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting that you raised that compliance, because when I read your book, I couldn't help but think of the comparison which reminded me of Gabby Stroud's book, Teacher. She left. She was a primary school teacher in Victoria. For those who don't know. Um, she wrote a book as well about her experience. And the popular story about Gabby was that she was burnt out. Once she had some therapy after leaving, um, teaching, she realized she didn't actually meet the criterion for burnout. M and the way she describes it is that she was demoralized. So she was suffering from what some would refer to as moral injury, that compliance. I just want to draw in the compliance element that you brought in here. Work environments. In this case, we're talking about schools, but it might be all sorts of work environments. People are increasingly being asked to do things that they may not agree with. So, for example, with teachers, one of the things that a lot of educators don't agree with is the endless, seemingly endless bureaucracy, paperwork, standardised assessments, which we don't feel are, uh, having any significant, if any at all positive impact on the students. And because our time is very finite and we're increasingly being asked to spend that time doing things that we have, you know, it's a strong phrase to use, but a moral disagreement with, you know, we've only got these kids in front of us for so long. If we spend too much time doing stuff that we don't actually think is making any difference, that can be a values misalignment. For us, it can be a moral injury starts to occur if we're very compliant about doing that. So people sort of throw their hands up in the air and say, well look, I know this is having zero impact on the education of my students. It's having zero positive impact on my own identity as an educator. But I've just got to do it. I'm um, compliant. I'm good at being, at doing what I've been asked to do. Uh, so I'll go with it. And so then people eventually, over time start to suffer what could be referred to as a moral injury. And I know that was an element for you as well. Do you want to talk to us about that briefly?

Speaker C: Yep. The, the things that you've just named there are burying teachers and they are moving teachers further and further away from the purpose of their work and from the aspects of their work that sustain them. Um, and you know, I'm reminded of a lovely little article that I found buried on page six somewhere when I was traveling through Europe during COVID Bear with me, I know it's a tangent, but I'm going to get back to what you're talking about. And during, in Europe during that time, um, you know, there was some very stringent lockdown, um, protocols that we need that people were following. And um, so in France what was happening is that, you, uh, know, all the gardens were locked, um, all the parks were locked, people weren't allowed in them. And there was this little paragraph that I found in newspaper which talked about a mystery person in Paris who was going around at night unlocking the gardens so that people could go in and at least smell the flowers. And I cut that out because it, at that time, for me it was hope. That's the hope we have that we cannot stifle the human spirit. And teachers would prefer not to have to sneak around policy to unlock gates for our students. But we will if we have to. I think what teachers are resenting is the fact that they're put in that position in the first place because the system itself should support. When we talk about student centred learning, we talk about it. It's in just about every mission statement I've ever read. And yet too often we centre policy or we centre the timetable or we centre just about everything but the student and what the student needs. Um, and then we wonder why teachers leave. Because teachers don't become teachers because they want desk jobs. They become teachers because they want to connect with young people. That's the joy of the work with all the Goods and goods. You know, what am I trying to say? The highs and the lows and the complexity of that. In essence, teaching is work of the heart as much as it's about the science of learning. It's very much an art and it's a work of the heart. And if we, if we keep putting things in the way that move teachers further and further away from what they see as the, the purpose and their meaning of their work, then they're not going to stay as Gabby didn't we lost, you know, we're losing good teachers. Um, and one of the reasons, I think one of the, the way I found my way back, actually this was part of my, my pathway to recovery, was I really had to step back and do some deep soul searching and say, well, who am I as a teacher? Who am I? Who do I want to be as a teacher? What are my core values? What do I bring to the table? How do I want to show up for my students? And I prioritize that. That came first. The other stuff, the evidencing, the data collection, the, um, you know, the deadlines that came. I almost did a complete flip in terms of the time and the effort and the energy that I gave my work. And I prioritized purposeful work and that bought joy. Joy begets joy. You know, it's a, uh, it's a motivator. That's what kind of re. Motivated me. But I had to remind myself of that. I'd lost my priorities. I kind of lost myself to all of that, that evidencing and the bureaucracy and the paperwork. And it was, I almost had to fight through that to get to the students.

Speaker B: Uh, it's interesting you, you go back to that and I think that I love hearing you saying that. It's work of the heart. It makes me think of the word courageous, which you know from the French meaning from the heart. Courageous work. Teaching is courageous work. You and I have had a long day together today. Um, it started off at the University of Notre Dame in Sydney where you, where I used to, uh, work. Um, where you gave a guest lecture this morning. Um, sitting there in that lecture theater, um, with a hundred or so second year education students, they don't have the experience or the confidence yet to come in and be the little rebel of, uh, unlocking the gates of the gardens in Paris or whatever your parallel of that is. Um, I wonder how we get that message across to early career teachers. Many early career teachers will be listening to this. Where do they find the courage? Where do they find the confidence to do what you've done since you've come back to teaching, which is maybe. And, um, you know, your principal might be listening to this too, so we should be a little bit careful. But, you know, being able to navigate the system in a way that you're not suffering from moral injury as a result of the things that you asked to do. If you were standing back up in front of those students, uh, again, right now, in a sentence or two, what would you say to them about having the confidence and the courage, despite not having the experience, um, to focus on what's actually important?

Speaker C: What I said to them was one of the best things you can do in terms of preparation is develop a strong sense of who you are as a teacher. I say that to leaders as well. Who are. Who are you becoming the leader you want to be? Are you becoming the teacher you want to be? Because that will be. That was. That's what will sustain you. That's what will. That will be your true north. M. And every time you're in doubt, ask yourself, is this the teacher I want to be? Is this the teacher? Is this the leader I want to be? The other thing that I feel very strongly about for our newest teachers is the importance of good mentoring, because that's the role of a mentor, is to sit down. And there are lots of gray areas. You know, there's lots of times when people are in tension, you know, compliance versus, you know, what might be best for the student. And that might not always. You know, that can sometimes be a point of conflict. But the mentor is somebody who can sit down with a new teacher and say, what's your gut telling you? You know that student better than me. That's your job. Your job is to advocate for your student. What does your student need and how can you help them get there? Um, and that should be the priority. And. But I do think you're right. As a young teacher, that's hard, isn't it? You don't have the life experience. You're learning school culture, you're learning personalities, you're learning your craft. Um, in terms of being rebellious, you know, it's that sometimes it's just that little quiet, uh, I'm going to seek forgiveness rather than ask permission and do it anyway. And sometimes, you know, and. And I know that comes with that. Confidence does come with experience, doesn't it? As someone who's been teaching for as long as I have, I'm probably more likely to, um. But as a mentor, that's what I would always say to young people is that you are, you're learning your craft, you are developing your identity as a teacher. What when you. Because kids will always tell you, if you observe kids and you watch them closely and you listen carefully enough, they will always tell you what they need. So the job of the teacher is to say, right, my job is to advocate for you. That's what you want me to do, it's what your parents want me to do. That's my job. And if that puts me in conflict with policy, in fact, do you know what you might actually find heartening is that I'm, um, doing some work at the moment with the new aitsl. Um, the Australian Institute of Teaching and School Leadership has just, um, published some new guidelines around middle leadership. And one of the focus areas, one of the, uh, competencies, is having the personal courage to challenge school norms. Now that is something brave, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah. Not what you'd expect to find in that sort of document.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but I think it's evidence that slow, you know, education reform is always slow. But I was heartened when I read that. And it's one of the things that I highlight for, for middle leaders is that you're not actually being a troublemaker. This is what your own professional standards are requiring you to do, is to step in and challenge those norms.

Speaker B: That's brilliant. That's brilliant news. Um, to hear when you mention there the idea of asking for forgiveness, having tried something and maybe it going a little bit pear shaped rather than permission, um, it makes me think about the concept of intuition. And you mentioned intuition a couple of times in your book because essentially you say, sadly, through the burnout experience that you had, that you really lost your sense of intuition and you stopped trusting your intuition. Um, this applies equally to sports people listening to this, you know, asking the coach for forgiveness after stuffing something up rather than for permission to do it. Because people, you know, play instinctively, you know, they're trusting their instincts and they see a gap or they see that something's a possibility and they go for it, which may or may not work out. We need to find a way. And I think great coaches do this, whether they're sports coaches, whoever it is, whether it's mentors for early career teachers, they encourage people to trust their intuition. And I think whether you're a first week in the teaching profession or whether you've been doing it for 30 years, you have an intuition. Um, and I'm pleased to hear that in those, at all requirements in the moment is is probably some courage to step into that intuition. In your view, what systemic changes are necessary within educational institutions to address and prevent teacher burnout? Mhm.

Speaker C: Uh, so there has been research that's come out that looks at, um, protective factors, both at an individual level and at an organisational level. So what can organisations do, what can we do at a systemic level in terms of education? I'm going to address the big one first, which is workload. It's the one that is constantly named and I've read a lot of teacher surveys and research papers since 2016 and it is always cited as the number one risk. You know, the number one factor contributing to burnout is workload. Uh, and one of the things that I would caution us about is assuming that improvement means adding more. I'm reading a terrific book at the moment called the Pruning Principle and they talk about this very eloquently, the need for strategic subtraction. And they actually cite a pretty cool, in this book, a pretty cool, um, kind of experiment, social experiment that people did. They got a group of people and they gave them things they asked them to improve on. So one was a Lego structure, another one was a golf course. I can't remember what the third, third one was. And they said, right, we want you to work on improving this structure. And in almost every case people added something to it, even when those additions resulted in, um, suboptimal outcomes. Because we don't equate improvement with doing less. We psychologically think that in order to be better at something or to make progress, we need to do something more, something extra. And I think that has been to our detriment in education. We are doing so much extra now that we risk losing the actual core purpose of our work. So one of the things I think organisationally we need to do in schools is find ways to subtract, reduce, simplify, um, the amount of work teachers are doing. Now, school leaders have got a part to play in that and I think I'd like to see school leaders, wherever possible, shield staff from just unnecessary stuff that everybody knows is not actually going to be of much benefit to people. Um, so the volume of the workload is one issue, but also the nature of the workload and that's the other thing that teachers cite, and we've talked about that earlier about the, you know, the bureaucracy and the evidencing and the data collection and teachers see that as something that takes them away from what brings them meaning and purpose in their work. So workload's one of them I think that's. That's gotta be a, um, real point of change. The other thing that teachers ask for, uh, is agency or autonomy in the work they're doing. So we. Because we've moved towards a prescriptive curriculum, uh, teachers actually have very little choice now in what they teach or how they teach it or even when they teach it. And so it erodes the ability to play with the curriculum and to tap into the natural interests of the people in front of you. And I always think, you know, in terms of data, the most. The most accurate data points are the ones sitting in front of you, that they will. And they will tell you what they need. They will show you what they can do.

Speaker B: Um, you tell some great stories in the book, actually just riffing on that idea that you're raising there about having some space within the curriculum to be able to do something that is temporal, something that's in the moment. So, for example, you talk about using the Adam Goode story, the dreadful racism that Adam Goode suffered, uh, when he was playing for the swans, and using that as a teaching moment with your students. You talk about another one with Malala. You subside.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, where certain things have caught your attention and you've realized they're significant and important moments. And so you've exercised that autonomy. And again, it probably comes through confidence, experience, but, you know. Yeah. One of the terms that gets used is that we're idiot proofing the curriculum. Uh, I had a great interview, um, with an Indian, uh, academic and technology guy, Sugata Mitra, who talked about the idea. Someone asked him a question. Do you see a time where teachers will be replaced by computers? And he gave a wonderful response, which was, any teacher who can be replaced by a computer should be, uh.

Speaker C: That is a good response.

Speaker B: And, you know, what I'm seeing and hearing from you here is that let's not turn ourselves into computers. You know, let's not create a situation where this, the syllabus is idiot proof to the extent where there's a script and it can be delivered via AI. Let's not do ourselves out of a job. Let's create autonomous situations for ourselves so that we can get a kick out of what we're doing as well as the students.

Speaker C: Yep. And I also think, you know, kids can find information. They can find it without me, they can't find meaning necessarily. Um, and it's the teacher's job. I'm an English teacher, I guess, so I'm probably more passionate about this. It is my job as a Teacher to put good stories in their way. Stories that are actually going to bring about change and transformation. Stories that they can struggle with. Um, stories that they can really wrestle with and grapple with and say, well, hang on a minute. What do I feel about this? And what would I do in that situation? And what would I do if the crowd turned on me? How would I respond? Um, they're really important questions for young people. And can I just say, you're working with adolescents. That is the window for social justice. They eat social justice up. And so it just makes sense to tap into that. Um, and I think that's the role of the teacher. Anybody can follow a unit plan if it tells you that you need to be up to lesson X by week. Yes. That there's no thinking in that. You know, um, that's not teaching. That's not my definition of teaching.

Speaker B: There's a lot of rushing in that, isn't there? There's a lot of shallow engagement in that.

Speaker C: Um, and you were asking me before about systemic change and organizational change. And one of the things I'd really like to see us get better at as a society is giving teachers credit for the fact that they actually know what they're doing. When you think about, you know, we were talking to our young, we were talking to young student teachers. Today they do, they do a four year degree. Many of my colleagues now have master's degrees. Some of my colleagues now have PhDs. Teachers are constantly studying and upskilling. We're always at conferences, we're doing online learning, they're pushing out online modules. Now I think what we have to do is step back. You know, if we were looking at any other profession, we would assume that a doctor is an expert in the medical field. We would assume that a lawyer is an expert in the legal world. Why do we not acknowledge that? Teachers are actually experts in their field? They study for years and they are continually studying and upskilling. Um, and we need to step away and trust that they know what they're doing, they know how to do the job. Um, instead of constantly asking them to prove what they're doing and that high level of scrutiny and that high level of micromanagement, um, in terms of what teachers are asking for, Tim, even though the media would somehow would sometimes have us believe otherwise, teachers are not asking for more pay. Teachers are not leaving because they're not being paid enough.

Speaker B: I couldn't agree with you more. Sometimes, of course, we all like more money.

Speaker C: Of course. Yeah.

Speaker B: No one's going to say give Us give teachers less. Mhm. However, that is not what's pushing teachers out of the profession.

Speaker C: Well, it's certainly not what the surveys are naming. So all I can do is, um, refer to the surveys and the research, and they're teacher surveys. So they're, they're asking teachers what are the push factors? Why? What? Nobody ever says I left because, uh, it wasn't paying me enough money. Nobody says that. And when people talk about, um, you know, their dissatisfaction with the job or, um, being demoralized with their work, occasionally pay is named, but it's usually very, it's usually a long way down the list. You know, things like workload and autonomy and teacher agency, and they're the things that are constantly named at the top of the list. Um, and so I think that there's some there. That's where organizations can start.

Speaker B: M. Thanks, um, sue, fantastic responses there. I'm going to be totally controversial here. Uh, um. Take it the right way. You stuffed up. Ah. How to manage burnout. What advice have you got to someone who might be feeling some of the symptoms you've got? What would you do differently if you had your time again? I mean, because I'm guessing the person that's sitting in front of me now is well loved, well cared for, robust, you got good support, people around you. You've come out of an incredibly challenging period in a very healthy way. But I think you were fortunate. What could you or should you have done differently? Or do you completely disagree with my premise that you stuffed up burnout?

Speaker C: Oh, I. Absolutely. Uh, there are so many things that I made, so many mistakes. Uh, and that's part of the reason I like to share the story and also talk to other teachers so that they can avoid some of the mistakes I made. The first thing I would say is that it's so important to get professional support. And I didn't. Um, the reason I didn't is because I think I was, I felt at the time desperate to protect my professional life, my professional career. I, you know, I dedicated a whole life to my career. Um, and I was worried about protecting it. I was worried about disclosing. I, uh, because I didn't know what it was. I kind of didn't even know how to describe it. So that first conversation is, how do you start a conversation like that? I didn't know how to do that. I do now. Um, so one of the first things I would say is it's so important to seek that professional medical support that you need. Um, if I had done that I think it would have alleviated a lot of the fear because I would have said, oh, okay, that's what it is. And I would have, you know, I'm sure I would have found, um, my way to some of those strategies and found my way through recovery a lot quicker. The other thing I'd say is don't wait until you reach crisis point. So one of the principals that I talk with, he says, uh, he uses his, um, EAP Employee Assistance Program and he just books a standard monthly phone call, not necessarily because he needs it, but because it helps him to, um, process the intensity of his work. So that's like a. He steps proactively into that. And often, unfortunately, we wait until we're in the red zones of burnout. We wait until we're actually in crisis point before we take any action. And we're not often well equipped then. All right? Because a lot of the time the damage is been done. Um, so I would do that. The, the other thing, you know, that one of the things that I hope my story really does say to people is that, you know, there is joy waiting on the other side of illness. It. It's. It's not going to last forever, although sometimes it feels like it will. You will get through it. You might get through it and be a little bit different at the other end. Um, another little story that I'll share with you is that when the book launched, I asked my husband to talk at the book launch. Because our experience, you know, when one person is suffering through mental health issues, it's never just that one person. It always affects the people that you live with and, um, your friends and family. And so I said to him, I think it would be important for people to hear about what our experience was like from your point of view. And he said a couple of things. One of the things he said was I had to realize that, uh, normal looked different now. He said, I kept thinking to myself, if sue can just get through this, if we can just get through this, then we'll be able to go back to the way things used to be. And then. And he said at one point, I realized that, that it's never going to happen. It's not going to go back to the way it meant to be. It's going to be different now. The other thing he said was, um, I had to realise that I couldn't fix this. I can walk with Sue, I can be there with her, but I can't fix it for her. And that was difficult for him as a husband and the third thing he said was, um, I didn't reach out for help and I should have because I needed it and he was trying to protect my privacy and so he didn't talk about it with anybody. But in retrospect he said I needed to reach out for my own support. Um, and so there's a few things in that I think having a clear sense of who your support networks are. M. Who would you talk to? You know, if you were going through a tough time? Do you know who you would talk to? Um, do you have a management plan? That's the other thing I would say is know what, what your options are. You know, if you, if you're struggling to turn up at work, do you know, are you able to access, leave, for instance? What are the financial implications of that? Um, what are the options available in terms of work flexibility for you? I'd probably be more, um, I'd be more proactive about putting a plan in place. Um, and I think as I said, definitely getting that mental health support early, early intervention is the key. And part of my problem, the complexities developed for me because it just went on for too long and so it got worse and worse and worse. And so what that also meant of course is that the recovery took longer. Whereas if I'd been proactive and acted earlier, you know, m. My, my recovery process, I might have had a much quicker turnaround time.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, we're going to leave it there. Um, and I've got to say with great happiness that the person sitting in front of me now, the SUE web version 2.0, um, is a very happy looking woman who's um, you know, if not fully recovered and a newer, uh, different and perhaps even better version of herself. Um, but certainly well on the way to fully recovering, which is a wonderful thing to see. Um, and I think a lot of you listening today may start to recognize some symptoms in yourself. And I suppose what we'd encourage is that don't allow yourself to end up, you know, in that terrifying situation that sue found herself in. Try and recognize what some of those markers are. I know sue, you talk about journaling in your book and one of the things that we can all do as we become more self aware is to journal. What, what experiences are we having at the moment? What sort of patterns are we seeing in those journal entries? Um, and so that we can really self monitor. Um, because particularly for those of us in education, the idea of ending up burnt out. If it's going to happen to Sue Webb, I would genuinely say it could happen to anybody. Um, congratulations on the book, Sue. I think it really, it's a fantastic read and it's a, it's a really great, um, story for us.

Speaker C: Um, and I hope, despite the title, it's a story of hope. That's what, that's that overwhelmingly it's a story of, of hope and finding your way back to work that you love and that you're passionate about and actually being able to move forward in a way that is somehow even richer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, so that's what I hope people find in it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Now, I came across you, sue, because I use LinkedIn a little bit. I'm a little bit wary of it, but I use it a little bit. Um, it's sort of the only social media that I really see. Uh, and you make some really great. Uh, and I say this very deliberately because most of what I read on LinkedIn I wouldn't call great. There's a fair bit of self promotion there. But what I see from you is some very helpful, let's not call it great, let's call it helpful. Some really helpful snippets that you put on there, which I believe you also put on Instagram.

Speaker C: Yeah, I do that. Tim M. Because, um, actually I found social media helpful for me when I was really struggling. Um, because what I like about it is that you can share small digestible bits of information that are not overwhelming to process or take in. Um, not all of it is great. You know, you have to, have to kind of find the judicious. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I do think it does allow me to share. It might be, you know, the summary of an article or some, a little bit of a snippet of emerging research or a little tip or a little something that I think, I hope teachers might, might look at that and go, actually that's useful.

Speaker B: And I would say it's not restricted to teachers. I think, um, this self care super important. Thanks so much for your time today, Sue. I really appreciate you coming down, staying ahead of the cyclone.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for the invitation. It was absolute pleasure and I am actually really enjoying the coolness of relative coolness of Sydney compared to the humidity in Queensland at the moment.

Speaker B: Yeah. All right, thanks so much. Go well.

Speaker C: Go well.

Speaker A: Perko. Um, yeah, there was some pretty powerful moments in that conversation. Um, and, and you know, I'm sure anyone listening, you know, realize you don't have to be an educator to, to resonate with, uh, what sue was talking about there. And yeah, I just hope that people listening Maybe, I know you mentioned in the conversation, maybe it shines a light on um, something that's going on for them that they can try maybe head it off at the pass a little bit before having a. You're finding themselves in a situation like Sue.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's, that's really one of the big messages to take out of this because sue didn't realize that she was burnt out. You know, she had that terrifying experience of driving down the highway and having a panic attack. She didn't see it coming. Everything was seemingly all right. She was just, you know, uh, working too hard, uh, too many things going on and had built and had built and had built and that uh, that you don't need to be an educator to understand that anyone working, hectic life, kids, you know, whatever the situation is. Um, and I suppose the real lesson for us is to uh, really self regulate, to really be aware of the warning signs and to look after ourselves, as you say. I mean some of the things she talked about, some of the obsessions that she developed there, I, uh, was really, I was really feeling for her when she talked about that stuff. And uh, it's. I, I highly recommend the book that she's written. Um, yeah, I think there's a lot of value. She was a very generous guest so I really want to thank her for her time.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And we'll make uh, sure there's a link in the show notes, um, to get a copy of that book. Um, as we always say, you know, if you found that episode worthwhile or interesting, then there's a fair chance that someone you know would also find it interesting. So please feel free to share this episode as far and as wide as you can. And while you're here, if you don't mind, you could leave us a rating, five star if possible. And of course make sure you have subscribed. If you'd like to find out more about our uh, work or get involved in the podcast in some way, then please head over to habitsofleadership.com and click on the podcast page there. Perko. The next one, it's the ton up my friend, is the big one, episode 100. Um, it's taken us a while to get from 98 to 99, so I can't say that it's going to be a quick single to cover to, to bring up the 100, but I think

Speaker B: we ought to rock, uh, crack one over uh, the fence. We're still trying to work out exactly what's going to happen. Do you remember Episode one.

Speaker A: Kinda. It was a Q A one, wasn't it?

Speaker B: I remember it quite clearly. Do you remember where we recorded it in the.

Speaker A: The back? Was it in that dingy back office?

Speaker B: Is that right, you cheeky monkey?

Speaker A: No. Or is it your place?

Speaker B: The lovely cabin at the back of my. Yeah, you mean the dingy office?

Speaker A: Yeah, I wasn't sure if it did. Your office or your lovely. Yeah, my lovely Swiss inspired log cabin.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: It's hard to tell the difference sometimes. Anyway, if you've got any ideas about what we should do for the 100th episode, please get in touch because as you can tell, we are devoid of ideas right now. But until that hundredth episode, thank you so much for listening, Perko. Thank you as always.

Speaker B: It's my pleasure. It was a great show.

Speaker A: Take care. Uh, take it easy. I'm Dan Hasler and I would love you to join me and some of the world's best athletes on the Play Fearless podcast. We're Mick Fanning. Welcome to Play Fearless.

Speaker B: Now, out of all the years and all the days that I've surfed, uh, that's the only time I felt like I was ever in danger.

Speaker A: Welcome to Play Fearless.

Speaker C: It's one thing to try being number one as another thing when you become number one.

Speaker A: The Play Fearless podcast is for anyone who takes their sport seriously and is available wherever you listen to podcasts.