098: Chatting with Atlassian's Dominic Price

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Speaker A: Hello and welcome to episode 98 of the Habits of Leadership Podcast. My name is Dan Hasler from Cut Through Coaching. And joining me today is Dominic Price. Dom is the work futurist at uh, Atlassian, an Australian software company which specializes in collaboration tools for software development and project management. They're one of the benchmarks in high performing workplaces. And you'll often find Dom, um, writing on LinkedIn about different aspects of what makes a high performing team. He's also, um, had a very well received TED Talk as well as, uh, his new TV show that's on uh, Linked called Experts Unleashed. Now, Dom and I share a similar story in that we both grew up south of Manchester. We're both similar ages. In fact, it turns out we, uh, probably both went, um, underage drinking in the same pub. That's how close we were, uh, where we grew up, but we've never met. That's despite, um, us moving to Australia at the same time and actually presenting at the similar conferences or even on the same program sometimes, but always perhaps like a day apart. And so this is actually the first time, um, I've had the opportunity to sit down and pick his brains. So I am delighted to welcome Dom to the Habits of Leadership podcast. And Dom, thanks so much for joining us mate.

Speaker B: Looking forward to the conversation. Today we are going to cover some ground. I imagine it like 1.5 times speed.

Speaker A: Well, we might do because you talk quick, I talk quick. My guess is that you think a little quicker than me as well. So it could be a, could be an interesting, uh, little joust I also

Speaker B: like between quick and painfully slow to,

Speaker A: um, the people listening. I often get, uh, feedback on my accent and we're sort of doubling down on that because we just, we've just discovered that we probably went underage drinking in the same pub growing up. Probably about Five miles from each other. So it's been. But it's going to be good for the audience.

Speaker B: This is going to be your first episode that comes with subtitles.

Speaker A: Well, let's, let's talk about, obviously as we're recording this, we both live in, uh, Sydney, Australia, but we both grew up, um, on sort of South Manchester side. Um, tell us a little bit about you. Um, you know, obviously now you're at Lassian and highly regarded in a sort of thought leadership space and quite provocative with some of your opinions about the state of work and the way things are going. But it didn't start there. Tell me a little bit about the Don Price story.

Speaker B: It's, it's a funny. I think my narrative on it changes based on where I'm at in life. Like, if I think about it at the time, it was the same upbringing probably that you had and that we all had. Right, you know, semi detached house, mum, dad, sisters, uh, uh, school. Like, it all seemed very normal. It wasn't until I got later in life that I started to hear other people's life stories that I realized that mine was different and everyone's is different. Right. It's kind of unique. I think one of the things that's a pleasant memory of me from my early childhood experience is how basic it was. And I don't mean that in a bad way remotely. Like, I don't think we ever had a fancy Christmas. We didn't do elaborate things for birthdays. Um, but it was always fun. Like two older sisters. Man, I got the mental shit kicked out of me at an early age. I think I learned resilience by having two older sisters, not by going on a leadership course. But I think there was something about the simplicity of life then, about, you know, we played out till it was dark. That's how we knew what time it was to go home. And, and you know, school was part of life, but so were family and, and adventures and, and stuff. And so it wasn't a dramatic experience in any way. There weren't, there weren't massive highs and there weren't massive lows. We holidayed in the UK. I think I was like 14, 13 or 14 the first time I went on a plane over. And that was to Spain, right? Like a one hour, 20 minute flight. So it wasn't an adventure thing. It wasn't until kind of late teens that I suddenly got infinitely more curious about what was happening outside of Manchester. And that, uh, that was in terms of career and music and life and arts and like what are these other places in the world that people call home? And that, that kind of lit this fire in my belly that I've got nothing against my m upbringing or that life and the gifts that it gave me, but that didn't mean I had to stay there. And I got this very deep curiosity early on to go and travel, right, to go and see stuff and experience different cultures and customs. And so that, that wasn't something that happened early in my child. But I think it's a profound moment of going. It was my sliding doors moment of going. There's. There's more than Manchester. It's not that Manchester is bad, great place, but what else might be out there? And how might I go about experiencing some of those adventures? And that's, that's kind of stayed with me.

Speaker A: Now, M. Was that different to like, were you a bit of an outlier in your group in that sense or.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I've always been all right with that. I've never tried to fit in. Um, I think the voice in my head sometimes says fit in, but it's never really got loud enough for me to care about it. So, you know, there weren't many of my sort of junior school, high school mates that went on to uni. There weren't many of my uni mates that moved away from. I mean, I went to university in Sheffield. A lot of my mates were like, oh, I like Sheffield, I'll just stay here. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna move to London. There weren't many of m. My London mates then three years in, when I like London. But I might move to Sydney and then I might leave Sydney, go traveling the world. I might be back to Sydney. Like each time those fork in the road have arrived, I've kind of done the one way door, two way door scenario of going, if I step through this, what might happen? Good things or bad things? But if it's bad things, can I come back through the door? And if the answer is yes, then plow through the bloody door. Like, why not? If the answer is no and once I go through this door, that's it, really think about those. They're the decisions that I measure twice and cut once. Very few decisions fit in that category. So I'm like, oh, let's go and have the. I remember when the job offer came for Sydney, I hadn't sought that. That wasn't a life plan. There wasn't a mood board. Like none of that was a, uh, here's my five year plan. It came up as an opportunity. I'm like, why not? I'll give it a try. If it's great, I'll stay. And if it's not, I'll just get on a plane and go back. Like, it'll be fine. And that mentality stayed with me quite a lot. And so each of those forks has kind of presented a bigger gap. So I've still got mates back in the. In the UK that are, you know, dropping in and see when I'm back, but it's not the same friendships I've got with my friends here. I've lived in Australia now for 21 years, so this is home now. It just did. And so you. You're building as you've done. You build a new foundation. You've got nothing against those people. That was a season in my life, and I celebrate that season. But we move on from some of our seasons.

Speaker A: Yeah. So if I'm doing my maths correctly, you sort of. I know We. We actually, again, sort of moved to Australia. Similar times as well. It's quite bizarre how parallel we've kind of sort of lived without ever actually meeting. Um, but. So you'd have been, what, about 25, 26? 26. When you made the move. What was that move for? I know you just mentioned it was a job, but what was specific?

Speaker B: There was no four. There wasn't, mate. It was. It was a weird, um, serendipitous set of. Of circumstances. I was three years into my, uh, work and life in London, doing okay, but not loving my job. I just qualified as a chartered accountant. Didn't love that. And I was wondering what was next. And I've always been quite curious and I think out loud a lot. So with my manager at the time, guy called Ravi Joshi, we went for sushi one day in London. He's like, what are you thinking? I was, like, thinking I might leave. Like, um, here's where I'm at. And I chat with him. He's like, have you ever thought of doing the same job somewhere else? I thought, no, that's a great reframe. I've never thought of that. He's like, I think you've got a lot to learn from the job, but I think you could learn even more from the job if you did it in a different environment. And so over that weekend, he made a series of calls, and he came in, uh, the following week, and he said, right, New York or Sydney? And I was like, we're going on holiday together, Ravi. I don't like it that much. And he's like, no, like your job right now you're doing in London exists in New York or Sydney. And for me New York felt like London but subtly different. Like kind of the same giant organization. Like I was one of 800 graduates. Started the day I started at Deloitte. I was, it was a small cog in a giant machine. I was like, New York's the same Sydney. I'm like, I've seen home away neighbors and there's sunshine and barbecues and I reckon I could give that a go and had a few calls and got on a plane. I honestly, I didn't think about it a huge amount because it wasn't this, this over engineered life plan of going, here's the things that it must fulfill. It wasn't a tick list. I didn't do the pros and cons. I'm like, sure, I use an 18 months to come and I'm like, it'll be fine. Like I'm a grown up, they're grown ups, we'll work it out. And so uh, it was a very opportunistic thing. I don't think it hit me till I got on the plane at Heathrow. I've done all the goodbyes and I bought a one way ticket. I remember sitting on the plane at Heathrow. I've never been to Australia before. So the first time I arrive is to live there. And I don't, I don't know a soul, I don't know anyone. And I was like, oh, like what am I doing? Am I running away from something? I've always had this sort of notion like, am I running away or am I running to. Am I running away or. And I was like, it feels like I'm running to something, I just don't know what. And I think we're always running away from something. I was like, there was things about the UK at the time that, that just weren't gravitating. I don't feel comfortable there in a weird sense. And so I arriving in Sydney and going, this place feels pretty cool. Like I didn't have that plan. I'd never been here before. But landing here I just started to invest in it and it's just made sense since.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so if you continue that sort of, the charting of that. I mean now you're at uh, Lassian. Did you, did you find your way there almost as carelessly as. Or as. That's probably hard. Carefree.

Speaker B: It's collisions mate. And it is, it is careless because it's careless in its nicest form of going, there isn't a plan. And so when you allow collisions, some of those collisions are bad and some of those collisions are good. Right. Um, I think life sometimes like gambling, like when you meet a gambler, they only ever tell you about the wins, right? They never tell you about the thousands of dollars they lost like I would on Friday, right. It's easy for me to look back, you know, here's the wins. But some of those collisions you're like, damn, that was, that was 100% avoidable with a plan. Um, the Atlassian one was, was fascinating. A really good mate of mine, Lawrence Scouser, it's very rare for uh, a

Speaker A: very rare, uh, very rare dangerous M territory.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Ah, we used to play five side football together and we were getting, having a few beers one night and I was chatting away to him and I was like, you know, I'm looking for a new job and I've been on seek and I've been on indeed. Um, I'm googling stuff and I just, I just can't find it. And we were at the, I think we're at the end of bottle three of, of of some nice red or ros. And he said, he's like dom, I don't think you're going to find a job and I don't think you should look for a job. I think you should look for a place like find a place where you feel like you can be you. And I was like, oh, I've never thought of a career like that. Like growing up in Manchester, you don't think about a career or a job or something that you like or enjoy. It's, you know, even when I go back to the UK now, my family, you know, they work for the man and I hate my job and everyone's evil. You're like, I like my job. Like it's, it's, it's a little bit orthogonal. But I remember when he said that I was like, okay, let's, let's go for place. So I decided that uh, and this was 2013, so my three top companies were ebay, Google, uh, and Atlassian. Atlassian was firmly third for a variety of reasons. But I reached out to someone, I did the cold call, uh, made it happen and never looked back. But one of the profound things I remember was hating my first 90 days at Atlassian. Like with a passion. I was looking for jobs elsewhere. I was not happy. I didn't have flow. I didn't feel comfortable. Like everyone was like, oh, there's just one best place to work. And I'm like, do you want to know a secret? It's horrible. Everyone's evil and they weren't. But the adjustment for me was probably one of the biggest adjustments I've ever had to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's really interesting because I first came across at last. And I think maybe in the. I don't know how you came across them, but Dan Pink obviously wrote about, um, in Drive. And I remember sort of first of all trying to get my tongue around the actual name of the company, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: But, but then as you say, the, the rhetoric around the company, best place to live, you know, you've got. So best place to work, you've got Dan Pink extolling the virtues of them, how they embed self determination theory and stuff. And you're kind of thinking it must be some kind of like utopia and that. But what you were saying was your experience of it wasn't. Do you know why?

Speaker B: Oh, Yeah, I know 100% why. I arrived with 13 years, um, of experience at firefighting. I've worked in places where the operating model was. Something breaks, I reach down to the bottom draw, get my, get my cape, fly in, put the fire out, get employee of the month and go and sit down again. Um, and I was, I didn't realize how engineered I was to that. And probably the best example for you, that is in the company I was in before, if you were having a meeting with someone, you had a pre meeting, you had the meeting and you had the post meeting and there was different invites for each one. And that for me became normal. That was the environment I was in. I remember getting to Atlassian and meeting someone. Guy and we've got a meeting tomorrow and I want to meet you today to discuss the meeting tomorrow. And they were like, what? Why? I'm like, why not like. And so the, the. Oh. I liken it to like when you're dating and everyone when they're dating says they want to meet someone with a good sense of humor. And I felt like I went to market and said I want to work somewhere with a great culture. I arrived there, it was just the opposite of what I'd experienced before. And it was me that was out of my depth and I didn't know how to handle it. And I found it really confronting. I was like, I feel like I've been successful for 13 years now. I feel mediocre and quite bad and I don't like the people. I was projecting out quite a Lot, but thank you. My boss at the time, VP of Engineering, JML sat me down. I was like, yeah, I don't know, something's not quite going right. He's like, yeah, it's not. I was like, oh. And he gave me some feedback and he's like, dom, I didn't hire you to fire fight. I hired you for all the firefighting you've done. I want you to reverse engineer it and fire proof. And I was like, ah, like that, that makes complete. I've never done that before, but that makes complete sense. And I'll give it a red hot go, but I don't know if I'll be successful. He's like, oh no, we'll mess up a hollow stuff along the way, but we're going to do it anyway. And once I did that reframe, it kind of made sense that I had to change to adapt to their environment. They weren't going to change to adapt to mine.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, okay, so now your role there is. And I might be butchering this, but I think on LinkedIn you describe it's Futurist and Team Doctor. Does that cover the. Does that cover the.

Speaker B: I've had two roles I went in as uh, I was running program management, so delivery and execution across R and D for a very traditional kind of engineering, product management and design team. So I did that for about four years. For the last seven and a bit I have been at last year's work Futurist and Team Doctor.

Speaker A: Okay, now you're going to help me out, mate. What on earth? I mean, I kind of know, but I reckon there'll be a fair few people, um, listening who m may not be fully across what. To be clear, I'm not fully across what it entails but I've got a gist.

Speaker B: But some days, there's some days I wonder.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you said that. So tell us, tell us.

Speaker B: I log on, I'm like, I got paid. So I did something and essentially probably the way it started would be a good, I uh, think kind of intel, right, that the, the thing that dropped in the ocean that create the wave was our head of marketing at the time, uh, led by the name of Heather, based in San Francisco. I've done at last seen this 20 time. Right. So when I was running program management I would use my 20 time, my discretionary time to go and do presentations and workshops and community events and conferences and I was buzzing. I loved it. And um, she saw me do a few and she's like I'm, uh, in San Francisco, went for a coffee. She's like, hey, I've got an idea. It's not very well formed, there's no job description. But I think there's a job where instead of you being internally focused, being the team doctor that helps Atlassian. How about you? The team doctor that helps the industry, that talks at conferences and customers and stuff. And I was like, yeah, there might be something there. Like we had a coffee and we chat about it. She's like, look, I've got a headcount, I've not got a job description. Maybe the best way to do it is the three month experiment. And I was like, you know what, you're right. Like we're never going to sit in a room and work this out ourselves. We're going to work it out by doing it. So, like, yeah, so made the right things work. Uh, three month experiment. She left. And so my sponsor, uh, goes, her boss, then left for something else. And I'm like, have I just signed up for the most doomed experiment in the world? We never finished the experiment. Uh, we never finished it because it went from 50% of my time for three months to now a team of people doing it full time. Because once we started doing it, it was like one of those latent desires. No one was asking us for this, but when we created it, everyone was like, oh, actually I want a bit of that. So in summary, now seven years on, after refining it numerous times, me and my team spent about a third of our time internally focused on how do we scale at lastly and how do we get better purely about how we work. So we're a software company, build software tools, um, we're all about how we work as humans. So we do that internally two thirds of our time outside. So some of that at conferences and events and working with teams of all shapes and sizes just to learn more and go and explore and experiment. And then the final third is with some of our largest customers or most complex customers, were like, hey, we need to change and um, how might you help us? So I spent this morning with one of Australia's largest banks with their CTO and a couple of thousand of their senior leaders saying, here's some ideas around how we've worked. You're a uh, 200 year old bank, so you can't copy, cut and paste this, but here's some, uh, some spirit or insights or philosophies around how we work and what works and what doesn't. And you can have as much of this as you want and apply it in your environment. And that, that's the bit that's the most fun is helping other teams unleash their potential but in their environment. Not in mine. They're doing it in mine is fun, don't get me wrong. But it's actually quite easy because we've got the culture, uh, we're a 20 odd company. Like we, we've got the setup to do that. I love going into government agencies, insurance, telcos, finance and they're like it can't be done. And I'm like bring it on. Like, you know what? It might not, but we're going to give it a red hot go.

Speaker A: How do you then? So that I think that's um, There's a few parallels there with the way in which I, I sort of work and go into place. And I'm curious about two things which maybe will take up the rest of our conversation, but it's like how do you frame high performance or, or whatever, whatever, you know, how do you actually frame the intention for the work that you, you're going to do and what are the sort of. Because you're saying you can't cut and paste this, um, for cons, for your context. You know, I spend a lot of time working with athletes and teams but then I, you know, I'll go into one of the banks and they, they want to hear about how we think about high performance and the kind of uh, elements and the way I frame it is this is going to sound and look a lot different to what it looks and sounds like in the, in the NRL change room. But, but people are like people. And so there's common themes which are portable. I'm, I'm keen to hear what you see as the, the themes which port from domain to domain which you kind of go, if we stay here long enough, we will find something.

Speaker B: So I think what you just verbally did there was draw the Venn diagram, right? The Venn diagram has this, this big chunky bit in the middle which is humans are humans. So let's use an NRL example, right. I've done a fair bit of work. Not as much as you in the field, but I was working with someone there. He's like, you know, one of the things they were training the team on was reaction time when something goes wrong and like, you know, you lose the ball, you commit a foul error and you're like, oh no, nightmare. In the time you're doing that, the other team set up started playing and you've lost, you've Gone and lost points and they're like, versus going, I can deal with that later. How do I stay in the moment? So reaction versus response. And I'm like, if I try and copy, cut and paste that, instant fail. Because I was like, well, I'm not doing that. If I'm like, hey, stuff goes wrong in business, but when it does, how do you part the reflection on that for a time when you've got the bandwidth versus what's the most important task for you right now? So I think when you reinterpret it, you can make most of it make sense. Where I get if, uh, I'm just honest with mate and I'll be fascinated by your view on this. Where I lose heart and get a bit pissed off is when I see people stand on stage and show a, uh, pit stop from 1954 and a pit stop from 2024. And I'm like, all, ah, right, lazy bones. Anyone could do that. Uh, that is the crappiest example ever. Because in a pit stop I have one job, one singular job and I'm, and I'm training, training, training and the car comes in, I do my one job of the car goes, that's not how business works. And like in Italy, I spent some time a few years ago with San Antonio spurs and the CEO there says to me, he's like, dom, um, we spend 97% of our time training and 3%, uh, performing. Business is the other way around. You're 97% doing 3% training course. Like it's going to be different. So I think when we look for the analogies and we use our smarts to try and interpret, there is a huge amount of more value, I think in cross pollination than there is in staying within your industry, right? So if I'm in a bank and I go and look at the other banks, I'm like, oh, they're just as bad, right? But when I was at San Antonio spurs basketball team, they've got a shadow boxer and a ballet coach. And I'm like, what? And like, well, one's for balance and one's for strength. And I was like this, you could play another hour of basketball. These guys have been playing basketball since they could walk and talk. So one hour of basketball won't make a difference, but shadow boxing and ballet might. So I think when you go orthogonal, there's a huge amount we can tap into. But the copy cut and paste, ah, honestly, it infuriates me because it's lazy and it, and it sets a precedent that I think is unrealistic.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it just, um. I mean, if we just labor the, um, sports analogy with business, I mean, you think about, I mean, you go into a sporting team and virtually everyone won. Knows what the goal is. Yes. Knows where they are. Knows where the goal is. The goal doesn't move.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Everyone wants to achieve the goal. Whereas, you know, you just take those four ideas and go into a boardroom.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What's the vision of the company if you've got four people in there? I can't say the amount of times you get 4, 5, 6, 8 different

Speaker B: business, you know, very dabbing. Which is, which is why, to your original question around high performance, I think that's where the gray area got a bit muddied. So I, I do a fair bit of work with Dr. Andy Walsh, who used to work at Red Bull, and Andy back in there, we're jumping on a whole lot of stuff. He's like, no, no, Dom. He's like, you keep on talking about high performance like it's an end state. And I'm like, it's. It's not. He's like, no, it's not. And, you know, recently I caught up with him and he took me through the Roger Federer acceptance speech where he's like, yeah, I lost as many points as I won. I just won the important ones. And you sat there, you're like, oh, God. Like, that philosophy of going, hey, it's not about winning. Every point there, there's a, A, A champion, a guy of an era, like a, A champion in so many regards who didn't win every point. You're like, oh, uh, you. I might need to rethink how, how I'm classifying high performance as this weird end state that you just achieve and you live in, in perpetuity versus in. In my world, it's very environmental. Like, there's teams I've worked with where I would say, I felt on, on one week we were high performing, the next week we weren't, because the circumstance changed and we didn't become bad people overnight. So I, I think we need to cut ourselves a little bit more slack. Certainly in the business world right now, there's this desire to achieve this, like, give me the recipe and I'll just go and do it. And you're like, yeah, I can't. Because the recipe changes depending on the weather and the day and the week and the month and the mood and the economy. There's so many factors, only some of those are within your control. And I can talk you through them, it doesn't mean you're going to win every game.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm wondering, so when you think about, you know, when you really tightly, you know, zoomed in on the week to week fluctuations, it can look, if you're tightly zoomed in on that, it can kind of look like a bit of a roller coaster.

Speaker B: But if you look, it looks schizophrenic when you zoom in.

Speaker A: But if you zoom out over time, would I be right in saying those. The fluctuations kind of, uh, obviously, because we're zooming out.

Speaker B: It does, it does. Here's my thing, right? I, uh, I had a really good sort of sparring session a few years ago with someone on this. The thing that I want to, uh, um, invent or codify is learning velocity. Right. I actually think it's better than high performance, which is, where am I now? Where, where do I need to get to and how quickly? What's this, what's the angle of that trajectory? So a lot of business I work with, they're learning, but epically slow, right? They, they get the same insight as me or you today, but it takes them four months to act on it. But we're more nimble, right? We learn quicker. We've got higher learning velocity. So we go, oh, I've got an insight that's interesting. I might cause. Correct. I'm going to try something different and I'll, uh, redeploy that thought process on Monday. So our learning velocity is higher, therefore our angle is higher. I prefer that as a sign of progress versus when people talk to me about high performance, it's normally perfection. And I'm like, it's not achievable. So instead, show me the angle and if something happens, it takes me down. Show me how I recover. Show me my results, because market's going to change. Externally, I could be on this perfect angle and the whole market or, uh, competitor launches a product before me and I want to restart. I'm still high performing because of how quickly I reacted. But I've come back a few steps. And so the angle, I don't know how to measure it and I don't know how to document it in a way that people can consume, um, and access it. But I know what it feels like. And when I'm on the angle, nothing else matters because I'm like, we'll never get this fictitious magical tick in the box that we're high performing. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna bet on us to get wherever we need to get To.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm really interested by that because I think it's. It's something that's quite intuitive. Right. You know, if you're doing it and. And when you were talking about, you know, going into those, um, environments where people might look and go, yeah, nah, not doing it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, they know. They. They know. They know that they're doing that. Well, that's my assumption, that they know that they're doing that. But I'm wondering about your relationship, because you mentioned there about, um, perfection. So I'm interested about your relationship with. With that, um, and specifically the way you frame. So again, I was. I always pick people up if they say, you know, I say, what's the goal here? You know, to be the best. We want to be the best. We want to be the best.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But it's also the way I pick them up. I say, what, so you just want to be less shit than everyone else? That's really what you're saying? Because if everyone else is shit, we only need to be less shit.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, I want to be mediocre plus one.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, not quite, but still mediocre. Yeah.

Speaker A: Which. Which is something I'm just. I'm sort of mapping this, your work and you as a person.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, this idea of. Actually, I'm not com. You know, so I'm going to extrapolate further and say so in order for me to be comfortable with saying, well, I'm just interested in my progress and my velocity, not relative to others. I'm not comparing myself to the, you know, whatever that your competitors in inverted commas, uh, may be. You're not doing that. You're not scrolling through LinkedIn, uh, getting the frustrations that other people are getting more exposure or have different points of view, has that. Or, you know, and. And perhaps that's virtues that you would then extol on teams and organizations. Have you always been that way?

Speaker B: Oh, God, I've invested and wasted way too much time in navel gazing, looking at others, uh, resentment, jealousy, um, envy, all that stuff, and going, that's not fair. I want that. And then you're like, well, in the hour that I got upset by that, I didn't get any nearer to it. In fact, I've angered myself so much I'm further away from it. And it's only on reflection. You're like, well, that was a waste of energy in Mojo. Like, I've literally invested my scarce resource of Mojo on negativity. Now. I don't think negativity is bad. I actually did a session with Dan Pick recently. He's like, negativity. You can learn a lot from, uh, if you overly positive, you don't learn, you're overly negative, you bury yourself. There's this lovely sweet spot in the middle. So I like to be inspired by what others are doing. I like to see what this do and go, you know what? Hats off to you. Nailed it. Like, good on you. Like, I didn't think of that. You did, like, like, well done. And it's funny how in the industry, I mean, that's, uh, sometimes seen as bizarre, but there's a whole lot of people in my industry that I do that with that would be classed as, like, my competition that do it back. Right. It's actually. It's like, you know what? You suddenly realize the world's big enough. Like, it's not that if I. For me to be successful, other people in my field have to fail. It's actually, if I'm successful and they're successful, everyone rises. That's a rising tide. And I think, if anything, I learned that probably a little bit too late in life. Like, it kind of dawned on me, not me, five or six years ago, and I was like, ah. And when it hit me, I remember there was, um, early on in the work futurist role, um, I was chasing vanity metrics. I was chasing audience volume. And I had this week whereby I did a presentation to 12,000 people. And the adrenaline and the ego, huge massage. Brilliant.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course.

Speaker B: But zero results from it. Like, no actual, like, end outcome.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that was on, like, the Tuesday. And on a Thursday, I did a workshop with 12 CEOs. Uh, it's amazing. I really enjoyed it. I remember getting on the plane on the Saturday and I was like, oh, I was so angry at myself. I'm like, the vanity metric that I'm bragging about is meaningless because those 12,000 people, I don't think I'd even remembered anything from that talk. And I'll get a good score and I'll get the pat on the back, but the actual impact and outcome, quite low. The 12 people I had in the. The lunchtime workshop where we got a whiteboard for three hours and argued, uh, I learned a lot. They learned a lot. I think I'll follow up with someone. They've added me on LinkedIn already. They want to chat. Like, that was real. But I can't quantify that, because if I say 12, everyone thinks I'm crap. 12,000 is better, right? And there was this moment of going, I'm, um, chasing the wrong dream, I'm chasing someone else's dream. And it's a never ending dream because I'll do 15,000, then I'll do 20 and I'll never be satisfied. So I don't care about that. And it's funny how that's weirdly ironic is that's now helping me get volume by not focusing on volume. So I launched my own TV show earlier this year. The volume I'm getting on that is huge. But I'm not chasing volume. That's not the goal. The goal is, as yours is credible content that's accessible, inspires people to do something different. And if I stay true to that, it will resonate. If I don't and I chase audience, I might get it in the short term and I will produce terrible content in the medium to long term.

Speaker A: Yeah. Which as you say, you inwardly would not be satisfied with. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. It's also, and I'm sure this is a question you ask yourself, what's going to help me sleep better at night? Um, and what's going to help me wake up excited in the morning? And it's not the 12,000, right. It's the meaningful conversation with the 12. So I'm like, so then if it's not vanity metrics, what does impact look like? And so with my team two years ago, we had an off site and uh, we all swarmed on one word, uh, which was activation. So we're like, throughout the year we're going to measure our success on how we activate people to do things differently. It's the actual follow through of the thing we said is the thing we care about, not, not the reach we need to do reach to do activation. But the end goal is activation. So we need to plant a breadcrumb with the people we work with and see what happens. Because we want to measure the impact three or six months after once we shoot out. And that's. That was a great sort of mindset change for us.

Speaker A: Yeah. And what I love about that, and this is my take on what you've just said, that has activation has nothing to do with you.

Speaker B: Nothing.

Speaker A: M. And I'm not saying that as like, I'm not saying that as you're absolving yourself for responsibility. What I'm saying is the goal that you're pursuing has not. Is, it's nothing. Some, um, yeah, it's not like, oh, I'm go, I'm gonna get this, I'm gonna get the More followers, I'm gonna get the bigger paycheck, I'm gonna get the status, whatever. You're chasing a goal, which is other focus.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's funny because when it pays the dividend on, it's really good. Like, it's the most addictive drug I've ever experienced.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: A message from someone three or six months after I did something going, hey, here's what you said on the day, here's what I've tried, here's what worked, here's what. And here's how life's going better. I'm like, result. Like, that's it. That's. That's the reason I do it. And you only hear the odd ones or twos. But I'm like, just that as a signal, directional signal is enough to go, we're on the right path. And. And what I said to my team is, all we need to be confident on is directionally, do we feel confident we're on the right path? We'll never know for sure, but do we feel like we are?

Speaker A: Yeah. You mentioned before that you learned this a little late in life. I mean, come on, mate, you've still got plenty of years ahead of you.

Speaker B: I turned 47 in a couple of weeks. I'm not late in life, but I feel like I had enough opportunities to learn that earlier. And I think there was, um. I am happy to admit there's an ignorance and arrogance combined with early on in my career that meant I didn't listen enough. And I've got a lot better at listening in the last few years.

Speaker A: What did you. What? Because were people telling you that. You know what I mean? Like, were there people in your corner or was it like just the, you know, the soft. The soft stuff that might come up on socials every now and then and you just scroll straight past it? Or were there people in your life going, hey, Dom, wow, mate, you need to settle down here.

Speaker B: Because I marginalize them.

Speaker A: As you know, they told you once, they told you once and you brushed it.

Speaker B: Yes. When you're on stage a lot or you're in the public eye, you get to filter out what looks like negativity because you've not got the time for it. And all you do is you consume the reassurance and you're like, oh, my God, I'm amazing. And it's so fulfilling. So it actually came up a, uh, Dr. Andy Walsh event I did in LA. I remember sitting there and I found the event really jarring and I couldn't quite work out why? And again, I got on the plane afterwards, I was having that moment of reflection and I was like, I didn't experience confirmation today. Normally I go to an event and half of it's confirmation. Feels really good, very reassuring, but dull, really dull over time. If I'm at an event and I sit there and I hear someone speaking m, I'm like, I would have said that, that's boring. So I'm like, the jarring nature of spending a day with people that weren't like me and I didn't enjoy it at the time was like three or four days later. I sat there, I was like, I needed that. I really needed that injection of non like minded people that are great in their field sharing stuff for me, going, I don't like this, I'm not comfortable with it. It challenged me in a way that I didn't understand, I needed. And um, once it kind of washed through and sank in, I'm like, I need more of that. Uh, I need to rebalance the events I go to where I source inspiration from. I need to rebalance to get more divergent thinking. Because being in this echo chamber of the same people, same topics is dangerous because it's not real.

Speaker A: Yeah. What's been the biggest surprising or the most surprising interaction you've had which has provided that kind of jarring, insightful.

Speaker B: I said, there's probably a thread, um, there's a few that have been really profound. There's an event I was at where there was an Aboriginal elder, uh, telling stories about reconciliation and, and some of the atrocities that happened, uh, to Aboriginal people back in the day and that I found really hard to consume. So like I've been in Australia for 20 odd years and yeah, that stuff did happen and I've not done enough to educate myself on it and shame on me. But the thing that my main take on all the atrocities they talked about that, the thing that really grabbed me because I sat there and I was like, if that had happened to my people, I'd be furious. So how on earth are you sat on stage right now, so calm and the guy's now a friend. I catch with him regularly. And because I grabbed him after that session I was like, I have one question for you. How did you do that? Because if that was a performance, wow, like you can't see the edges. And he's like, no, no, I don't want revenge. I want to walk side by side and I want us to walk in each other's shoes. I genuinely want reconciliation. And I was like, yeah, no, I get that. But do you not want retribution? Do you not, like, are you not angry because your stories, they were bad things. He said they all happened and I can't undo them. So here's where we're at today. So acknowledge what happened forward. And there was something so sort of, I'm not a spiritual person, I'm not a religious person, but there was just this calmness and like groundedness and how he talks about nature and connected to people. I'm like, I need more of you in my life. Right. And I need more stuff like that that just reminds me how however carried away I get in the vortex of Atlassian and tech and whatever else, like there's the stories out there like that that are genuinely about the earth and people and life and nature that are way more profound and way more interesting if I let myself tap into them. That was an example of. It really shook me to the court in a, in a good way.

Speaker A: Yeah. And do you see that? So how does that then impact you, like in, in other areas of your life? Are you, um, are you, does that open you up to perspectives, you know, more generally, or is it more domain specific?

Speaker B: No, no, I, I think it just, it's that little, um, it's like a little fictitious elbow I'll get in my ribs every now and then from a little like pretend friend that goes, don, Don, too much confirmation advice. Go find something different. So, yeah, I was at south by South West Sydney in, in Sydney this year. A mate of mine works at Taronga Zoo had something like, they're running a. Ah, talk about Mother Nature's seat at the table and how we're screwing up the planet. Hold on. A conservationist, A, uh, conservation accountant, climate people. I know nothing about this, but I'm like, okay, let's do the maths. I live on this planet, okay? So I'm a member, I'm a participant. Um, I care about this stuff. I innately do. I've got two year old twin boys. They're going to be on this planet hopefully longer than I am. Okay, you know what? This is something I can dive into for an afternoon. And I'm like, okay, what if I'm going to do it, I need to do the prep, I'm going to do the panel and therefore I'm probably going to trigger some interest and I might follow up afterwards. So it became a little bit of a thing, but that was a great tangent to go of all the different pillars we can take on and I don't want to take on all of them. What are the ones that have some level of fascination where I'm like, let's go and play there. And if the playfulness there works and it triggers something, I might do more. And if it doesn't, I'm like, cool, that was a good adventure. And someone else can run with that torch. I'm not, I'm not looking for a new hobby.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Between work and the kids and married life and family. I've got enough. But I need that divergent tangent every now and then just to go, oh, that's okay. That's. That's piqued my interest. That's made me more curious.

Speaker A: Yeah, let's talk. You mentioned there that, you know, you've got all those, um, the elements in your life going on, you know, the job, the family. Um, and I know, you know, that you, um. And you've kind of touched on this before. You would, you'd always be chasing stuff and, you know, looking for the status and whatnot. And I'm aware that round about that 2020 Mark M or 2021, you got a diagnosis that kind of was a bit of a. Yeah.

Speaker B: Bit of a shock to the system.

Speaker A: Yeah. A bit of a reset moment. Right. Um, could you just talk a little bit about that in terms of. In terms of. Because I think everyone can understand the shock to the system. What I'm interested in is, have you now. What things have you put in place now that means you can stay as true to yourself.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: As you were. You know, at that point in time we go, oh, shit, things need to change.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because I, uh, you know, I'm sure you see plenty of people who have those moments. But then. Yeah, yeah, quickly go back into Flick back.

Speaker B: So a little bit of context in 2019. Let's call 2019 the year of vanity. Right. I did 97 flights in the year. 12 trips to the US, seven to Europe, seven to Asia. As on every stage I could get on papers, uh, uh, podcasts, like, I was just pouring myself out. I was doing it all and I was taking in all the plaudits. I remember getting to the Christmas that year and being like, I'm empty every time. My social tank, my energy every time feels empty, but I don't feel rejuvenated. I don't know why I did what I did. And I saw this like, yeah, a weird set of quite reflective, serendipitous thoughts. So at the time, my, my oldest sister Trudy, uh, living back in the uk, she'd been, uh, diagnosed six years before with breast cancer. And so we knew her time on the planet was precious, but we. You always hope there's going to be longer. And so I'd gone back to the UK that Christmas and as I got back to, uh, Sydney in, in the January and tips on to February, I get a call from my doctor saying, dom, you came in for some tests recently, you've got early stage bowel cancer. Uh, really the only course of action is to remove probably about 60 or 70% of your bowel. By the way, the quicker we do it, the better before it spreads. I was like, okay, that's, um, that's weird because in my mind there's. My story was travel and work. My sister's story was cancer. And suddenly there was this third story that wasn't part of the plan, right? And it's very confusing at the time and some really weird moments. I said, I'm not spiritual, but some really weird timing moments. The day I got out of surgery, um, in Sydney after my. And I managed to get surgery very quickly, um, Australia was closing its borders and all, um, these classes and optional surgery, all surgeries got cancelled because all hospitals got redirected to Covid. So that was actually my last chance to get surgery. But also the day I got operated on, my sister back in the UK went to her doctor who said, look, here's where we're at. Uh, there's no more treatment, you're on palliative care now. You've got, you've got a matter of months. And so there's this really. And it still haunts me today. Not again, not in a bad way, right? Just this moment of going, how have I just been given a gift of longer. But the person I love and care for, that I do anything to help and can't help, has got the opposite news, right? She was a single parent, two young boys. Uh, it was, it was a really, again, very confronting moment to go. It's not fair. I could get buried by how unfair it is. But there's things that need to be done and those things are more important, which was getting an exemption from the government to get on a plane despite the fact I just had surgery and wasn't meant to fly. As soon as I could, I got on a plane and managed to get an exemption and went back to the UK and was fortunate enough to spend, uh, two weeks with my sister. Um, and she passed away in my arms, right, in Manchester. Um, and it was weird because in theory I should have been thinking about my recovery and my surgery, but I didn't. The focus was her. So then if you fast forward like a few weeks, I'm on a. I've landed back in Sydney and I'm in quarantine for two weeks. I'm in a hotel where they lock the door, the windows are screwed shut, and it's me alone. And suddenly the last three months all catches up with me because it's me, myself and I in a room going, wow, okay, now it's time to take stock. I've not taken stock. I've m not, I've been so in the moment. I've not taken stock of anything. So there's the trauma of my sister passing. What does that mean for me, for my relationship with her, with relationship with her kids, with my family? What does all that mean? And oh, my diagnosis, I forgot about that. I've got a massive scar. Yeah, I've got my own, uh, recovery. And what do you mean for my life? And then what do you mean in general? Like, what does, what does the idea of mortality mean for someone who's been chasing a dream that I've just realized is someone else's dream, not mine? So I did some deep ass searching in the hotel room. Some of it was good and some of which was pretty dark. Like there was, I want to say there was as many dark moments as there were light. And maybe that's what you need in life. You need those contrasts to work stuff out. But the weird thing that happened is two things actually. One is I made a decision. Uh, I made a decision that was on me. I couldn't wait for anyone else. It was on me. And if it was successful, it was on me. And if it wasn't, it was on me. So stop blaming, stop projecting. It's on me. Second decision I made was I acknowledged that I was very lonely and I didn't want to be lonely. Uh, I don't think I've ever felt as lonely as I did in that hotel room, having buried and had my sister pass away in my arms and be alone from her. But also, I wasn't in a relationship. I've landed back in Sydney. What am I doing? And by the way, I did 97 flights last year and airports are closed for the foreseeable future. What does all that mean? And so I actually downloaded the dating apps. And, um, one, uh, of the people I was chatting to, uh, in that week, in my second week in quarantine was a lady by the name of Rebecca, uh, who, uh, April this year I got married to. And we have two Year old twin boys. So, like, there's a weird moment of going like, of looking back at that time ago. I made some decisions that were pivotal decisions. I didn't think it would happen that quickly. Um, but the mindset change of Gary, like my physical health, I own this. If I eat the wrong foods and I do the wrong things, I'm gonna get sick again. Like, my body is missing, like, major organs and things that have a job. So I have to be careful. So if I go out in the source and get smashed, I know that's gonna make me sick. Does that mean I don't drink? Or how do I drink more sociably and sensibly so that I don't get ill again? And making those changes, I'm like, just do them like that. Don't argue about it. There's no point arguing. It's not going to change. I can't go back. So therefore, accept and understand the consequences. And that has given me a huge amount more balance, a, uh, huge amount more self control, but not taking away any of the fun stuff. I was worried that I'd put slippers on and be a granddad that sat there sucking Werther's originals, telling stories about yesterday. I'm gallivanting around as much as before. I've got more energy than before I had the surgery because I've made the right changes. But it's about holding myself accountable and honest. And that's hard. I don't want to sugarcoat that as easy. It's hard. But having those philosophies and principles have just really helped me stay grounded.

Speaker A: Did you, um, were you coached in any way through that, or did you just, in typical Munch the bloke style, just go, I've got this and I'm just gonna do it myself.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think too much of the latter, to be honest. I. Yeah. As you know, from that upbringing, there's. There's a stubbornness, there's. There's a stoics. Stoicism. There's a whole stiff upper lip and stuff. Um, I think emotionally I was really fortunate. I had a. I've got a good group of friends around me that have been around long enough that I talk to and I could open up with and. And be really honest about the light and the dark and stuff. You know, when me and Becca started dating very early on, I shared with us, like, here's why I was in quarantine. Here's what happened. And we went through that story and I was like, look, here's where I'm at. In life, and if this works with you, great. If it doesn't, I'm all right with that because I know what I want now, and I know what it looks like, not physically, but I know what it feels like. And I'm not going to settle for anything less than that. And so I think I feel really fortunate. And again, maybe similar for you. I've got no family, technically. Beck is now my family. I've got the kids, but no, uh, extended family in Australia. So my friends have become family. Right. They play that same role. And when the kids were born, we didn't have either set of parents, our parents here. And so we've relied on our friends. Right. And they play that role, I think, with huge grace and forgiveness and same when stuff goes wrong. So I think that was the closest thing to coaching was just people around me going, how are you? Like, what's going on right now? Is it a light day or a dark day, like where we're at? But it's, uh. There's probably a little bit too much stubbornness in there, on reflection.

Speaker A: So two things that I'm sort of hearing from you when you're talking, I'm sort of going back again to this, the. The carefree attitude of, of, you know, just walking through doors, you know, and, and. But also. But also that's, um, coupled with this sense of ownership. It's like you're not, you're not necessarily. You're not falling through doors as such, or being pushed through doors. You're choosing to walk through them.

Speaker B: There's no. Look, there's. There's this opportunistic nature, and I'm fortunate, but there is definitely no luck involved.

Speaker A: How do you, how do you distinguish between those? I think some people might think less anonymous.

Speaker B: So. So lucky is a coin toss for fortune is favors the brave. Right. Fortune is going. I'm going to try that. I'm going to give that a go. I'm going to try that. They're fortunate people, and I have been fortunate along the way. And some of that fortune has paid dividends emotionally and physically and financially. Like, there is definitely some fortune there, but I, I've not gambled on stuff, and it's. It's not been a coin toss. Um, so I, I don't feel like I've been lucky. I. I feel like I've been fortunate.

Speaker A: But you've also put yourself in the picture, right?

Speaker B: That's what I mean. People put themselves out there, which means you're willing to take the downward Slide as well as the upward slide.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. This idea, I've been playing with this idea at the moment of uh, you know, just going all in, you know, so working with athletes who are going, oh, I've got a bit of a niggle, you know, I've need to sort of just, you know, just manage my way through this game or whatever. And it's like you can't because what happens if you get dropped? You're going to kick yourself. You bet you're better to go all in. And if you get injured then at least we can sort that out. If you just. And I know that's a blunt example, but this idea of, I like the

Speaker B: idea of saying limping in, right? This, this idea of like a half assed effort and then being upset when you get a half assed response. I'm like, no. Like uh, I did the same thing with events. Either I'm available, I'm quite binary. Either I'm available or I'm um, not. If I'm not because my head is somewhere else, I'm not going to do a second event because uh, I don't want to give you a half version of me, right. So. So I've become quite disciplined with what I say no to come. Like no, no. I'm physically available that day. However, I'm on a flight and these are things I'm doing and I know emotionally I'm going to be knocking on that night. So it's a no. I'm not going to do it. I'm going to, I'm going to choose to opt out because there'll be another opportunity because I'll give you the half show. I think that's actually worse than not turning up.

Speaker A: One of the things that strikes me when you and I are talking is that we both are in a position where, you know, I, I've got my own business. So uh, not, you know, I've got a fair degree of autonomy in how I choose to work, when I choose to work, who I choose to work with. It sounds like you've got a fair, I mean it sounds like you've got a fair degree of autonomy and whatnot. What I get sometimes when I'm working um, with certain organizations, um, is that they. It's not the same as what you're saying at the start where it's not just we can't do that because we can't do that. It's like, it's almost like this. Then it's. And, and it's pissing us off because you're saying that you can. Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, you know, you go, oh, you train three or four times a week. Well, well done, you know, and there's always this bit of me which I kind of bite my tongue, but I kind of don't. Where it's kind of like saying everything's a choice. And I don't know if that's. But do you think that's fair? I. Do you think that's fair?

Speaker B: Because there must. It's a choice and a trade off. Right? So it's, I think, the mistake that's happening in the world that we're in right now and the business society as a whole is this gravitation towards one way. Like, can you, Dan, can you give me the one way this will work? And you're like, well, I can tell you a story from this team. That team and that team, we can pass those together and build a version that's right for you if you want to do that. Like, that sounds like a good adventure, but if you take any of those three, you're going to fail. So, no, I can't give you best, but I can coach you through it and nurture you through it. This desire for best means that we then start to compare. And I'm like, comparison's void. It's stupid, it's mute. Right. So whenever I'm in those conversations with leaders, I'm like, it's a simple question of what trade off are you willing to make. So you say you want, uh, autonomous teams that are innovative. Yeah. Cool. What are you willing to let go of? Nothing. Well, you're not going to get them then, right? So I was really fortunate years ago to do, uh, a number of workshops with a guy called Jeff Eggers. Jeff is one of the most senior Navy SEALs in history. Um, ran the mission to catch bin Laden and did eight years working for Obama as he's like head of security for stuff, right? And when he told me this one day, sat me down, he's like, don, here's the polarity of leadership. You need to do both. And I was like, what is that? The trade off? You need to do both, right? You need to be an empathetic leader, but sometimes you need to be directive. And I'm like, oh, I've been thinking one was good and one was bad. It's like, no, you need to be able to do both depending on the environment. And so then comes down to a trade off. Like, do you want to be X or Y? And they're Like I don't know, because there's spectrums in everything we do. Right. I want my people to feel like uh, they can speak freely about anything Cool. When they do that. Are you going to punish one and fire them? Yeah, no, we will. Right, so no one's speaking freely then. So I think it's out of convenience. We've got a little bit lazy in understanding the consequences of what we decide. So you will have seen this like in the last sort of 10 years in Australia, every leadership teams, oh, we're going to Silicon Valley on a study tour. We're going to go to Spotify, I'm going to go Google Facebook. And you're like, cool. You uh, run a bank in Australia, not a music streaming service. So um, what is it that went there? They have beanbags, we went to Spotify and they have squads and so we're going to do that. You're like, pause, understand the system, not the technology system, the systems thinking the system that you're a part of and build the best version of that. And maybe beanbags isn't the answer or the differentiator. And so my frustration with leaders is when they're looking for the answer, they're often not willing to do the work to work out why it's a problem where they are and understand the variables your whole job, right. Because I've looked at what you do is understanding variables and tweaking them. Um, I think a lot of leaders don't want to do that. They want to be given the answer and you're like, no, no. Like when Dan gets a team to be amazing and elite performance, it's six months worth of work of build up to that moment. You want the moment, but you're not going through the six month worth of work in enterprises, especially when you're 150, 200 year old bank or telecom, like you've got even more unlearning to do. You're gonna have to be really disciplined on this. And like we just want to paint over, we want to paint over the new answer and everyone can just sing that new hymn and you're like, that's not a religion. That's not going to get you anywhere. That's just theater at best.

Speaker A: It's like it just because it's marrying that tension. Like you said before, it's great to get out of your context, you know. And so when you went to the San Antonio spurs or whatever, it's great to get out. But, but my guess was, and this is mate, this I've just realized this. I've almost vomited these words as I've come in out like. But instead of looking for answers, you're looking for the questions. You know, but. Sorry, but you know. Yeah, exactly. That's a little bit of.

Speaker B: Someone gave me that as bingo to squeeze in some Good grief.

Speaker A: Yeah, but it's. But there's a lot of truth in those cliches, right? There's a lot of truth in those clich.

Speaker B: A colleague gifted me the phrase a few phrases before. One was just reframe everything as how might we. So I was like, I was getting stuck in stuff and this won't work. And she's how might we? Like if you had to do it, how might we. I was like, oh, just open up the aperture. Like how might we. With. With Dan Pink a few years ago, I was talking about how I was struggling in meetings. He gave me a one liner. Uh, he's like, uh, argue like you're right, listen like you're wrong. I was like, oh shit. I listen like I'm right. There's the problem. Like these little one lines. Whilst the cliches, I find them like as simple beacons just to like anchor me back. The one I've got as a, as a post it note on my screen at the minute is less furious, more curious. It's cliched as all hell, right? But for me in this context, I'm like, when I start, I'm very passionate. When I get wound up and I'm about to jump down some throat, I'm like, don't be upset, wonder, uh, just wonder why. Why is that happening? Like be curious, calm yourself down. Less furious. So I'm with you. The one of like if you go searching for answers, sometimes the best thing to do is to actually just think about questions instead. It's a great refrain.

Speaker A: So when do you get it wrong?

Speaker B: All the time. Yeah, I've just. One of the things I've been learning recently is forgiveness and pre forgiveness. So me and my uh, my wife had a conversation. We had a conversation when we got married, but then we had it when we were planning on moving house. We had the conversation like a few weeks before we moved in. And uh, the agreement was we're like, let's start from a position of pre forgiveness because neither of us have lived in this house and it's going to be confusing. So if I ask you where the greater is and you don't know, we can't be upset with each other because neither of us know what the greater Is. And that's fine. Like, no one's died, so it's okay. But when you're unpacking boxes, dealing with the twins, everything seems frantic and frenetic. So we've just been reminding ourselves, let's just start, uh, with forgiveness, because it's going to go wrong. Because we just. I don't know. We don't. We've not left it before. So, you know, in a personal life context, it's been fascinating to look at just that two weeks of trying to settle into a house. The kids have. Trying to adjust. We're trying to adjust. Start with forgiveness. That we upset the other person. Start with forgiveness. And then at work, I think probably the most profound one in the last year, I had, um. This is. This is a funny one, because you'll get this. For three years in a row, I definitely just be like Dom, like, really trying to work out how to utilize you and the team. And if we were to go big, if we were to really go big, what would we do? And for three years, I wrote a conference page and I wrote the plan, did some slides and some diagrams, and I sent it. They're like, oh, my God, it's amazing. You've not gone big enough. Let's go bigger. We go bigger. And then, like, there's no headcount this year. There's a, uh. Yeah, anyway, next. Let's. Next year. Anyway, three years in a row I did that and I started to get quite frustrated. And then in January this year, I was doing an off site. My colleagues are based in the US And Germany, but they were over in Sydney. The idea is, is that in the morning we do a walk. So we did a, uh, 16k. What we did Bondi to Kuji and back again. So break bread together, hang out, social refresh, fresh air, all that jazz. Afternoon is in the box in the office to do the work. And we're going through some stuff, and I'm sharing this frustration with them. Um, and one of them, Sven, the, uh, German guy, he's like, why don't you just do it? Just do the show, just. And I'm like, yeah, but. And I went into negative mode. Yeah, but here's all the reasons why not. And Mark, my other colleague, goes, yeah, I think we should just do it. Should we just do it? Like, if we just did it, do you reckon we'd get fired? I was like, no. And they're like, have you got budget? I was like, yeah. And they're like, you know how you always tell us not to Ask for permission. Are you asking for permission? Maybe. And they're like, should we do it? I was like, yeah, let's do it. So what we agree with, like, not be too maverick. Let's do three shows and here's how we're going to do it. And here's the budget, here's the measure of success that gives us indicators we're heading in the right direction and let's give it a red hot go. And it's fascinating to me. I got so carried away with. I thought I was right and I wasn't allowed to do the thing that I thought was right and therefore I was trying to prove people wrong. It was a complete waste of energy versus going. If I want to prove people wrong, I'm going to do it and show it how successful it was. And then they're like, oh, we should have done this earlier. I'm like, yeah, I told you so. So again, even though I logically know that the whinging and the negativity takes me down, that was a great example of I was going down the wrong path. And I probably could have gone earlier with a, uh, why not just do it? But having those guys around me to give me the nudge was really helpful,

Speaker A: which really speaks to this idea of having the right people around you in the teams and those conditions where, you know, you can have that pushback.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, like, to what extent do you think teams. What's the right way of putting this, this idea of preserving harmony or just, you know, like, oh, it's great here. We all really get on. Um, talk to me a little bit about, you know, the, the norms or the ways in which you might help teams.

Speaker B: I'm a big fan, in theory, of the work of Project Aristotle that came out years ago, invented the phrase psychological safety, which is a lovely study, except everyone just started to talk about it and not do it. And the number of leaders I work with, I'm like, there is no correlation between how many times you say psychological safety and the building of psychological safety. Right. It just, it doesn't, it doesn't exist. Right. Just like when you're like, you know, trust me. Because you say trust me, I'm immediately not right. Because the fact that you have to say it means that you think I didn't trust you in the first place.

Speaker A: Let me be honest with you, because I'm not normally honest, but now, right now, this is the moment I'm going to be honest with you.

Speaker B: So psychological safety has become this dance, uh, this theatrical dance we do rather than, rather than acting on it with the teams that I work closely with. One of the tenants we have in place is respectful descent. And it's the, the most important word there is. Respectful dissent is really easy. Respectful descent involves a, uh, a, uh, little bit of thinking and, and purpose and thoughtfulness of going, hang on, who are we solving for? What, what might I be seeing that you're not seeing? How can I gift you what I'm seeing? Because it might open up your frame of reference and therefore how do we build a better solution? And you know, I used to use the phrase, like I used to call project my baby. Like this is my baby and I've been nurturing it, but I held those things too close. Whereas, no, no, this is a project. Here's the audience, the intended people, and here's what success looks like. How can you all help me get there faster, better, quicker, whatever those things are. And that's not me going alone. So respectful dissent is something we play a lot with. And then I think we amplify that through two forms. One is when someone behaves as we want them to, that with that openness and playfulness. And the respectful dissent and challenge is we recognize them often in a public forum and when they don't, uh, we speak to them and we give them instant feedback in a private forward. Right. So that reinforcement of behaviors, that recognition for me goes a lot further than reward. And then the third element that I think has become a bit of a superpower for my uh, team and some of the teams I work with, and to some extent Atlassian, is story time. Like the. Again, I learned this from the aboriginal elder a few years ago. Like I'm listening to his stories and I'm like, These stories are 60,000 years old, but they're still as relevant. I'm like, why have we underbaked the value storytelling? I mean it's when you do head, heart and hands, like, here's the logic, here's how it feels, and here's the action. You could create huge movements in masses of people and ah, you tell someone what to do, they're not going to do it. Certainly not in my organization. If I tell them what to do, it's the last thing they're going to do. So storytelling is this. You know, we create our own folklore around how we tell these stories of here's what went well and here's what we did to make it go well, and here's what went wrong, and here's what we can learn from that. And no One got fired and you're like, oh, I now feel more psychological safe. And no one said the word psychological safety. So I think we need to wake up to the fact that high fives all round, beanbags, ice creams, pizza at night. That's not a high performing team or a high psychologically safe team. The high psychological safe team is the one m that goes, Dom, I really like that idea, but I want to build on it. Do you mind if I just take 10 minutes out to build on that? Because I'm seeing a subtly different problem and I want to approach it differently and I say, ah, please do. I feel comfortable in my skin. Say please do.

Speaker A: Yeah, I hear, yeah, it's, it's, that's what I, uh, often with the leaders who want you to do a workshop on it or whatever, it's like, yeah, we can do a workshop on it, but let's be clear, it's, it's your eye roll when someone questions the decision. That's what determines whether or not psych safety's built. Not my workshop. Let's be quite clear on that, you know. Yeah, and, and what I would say is that, uh, just trying to tie all these threads together, you know, that then comes down to the choice or the account accountability, you know, so we, if we're choosing to say, okay, we're going to go, we want to improve psychological safety or we want to, we've got to go all in and we've got to take accountability on it. And we have to understand that every, the smallest thing is not small. You know, like your eye roll, your sigh, uh, all those things.

Speaker B: Yeah, but it's funny, like the magic words you use, there is accountability, right? As leaders that there's a few too many ladies I've been working with recently that think psychological safety is a responsibility of the HR department. I was like, oh, you're doomed. Like, this isn't a procedure or a process you copy from your HR team. Like these are the actions that you do, the way you react and respond, the tone you use when you speak, when you listen. Like how you took all those things on a constant basis and it trends up and it trends down. Like it's, it's, it's constantly moving. So like you're not, you're not, you're accountable for it. But don't pretend it's a dial that you can turn up or turn down. Like at the end of month, we're about to do our engagement survey. I'm just going to turn up a bit of psychological safety. Like that doesn't work. It's false.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Um, I want to just round out with, uh, one last question. Sort of thinking, what, what's, what's something that you're grappling with at the moment, either on a existential level or a business or a work level or.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I'll give you one for me, quickly on a work level. And this comes around all the time, is scaling. I love what I do and I get to these junctions where I'm like, to scale the team, do I need to spend more time as a people leader, inspiring others and promoting them and coaching and helping them? At which point I stopped doing the bit of the job I really love, which is the delivery. And how does that mix work and what's the right mix over time? And that's just constantly evolving. It's not, it's funny, it's not on fire. But I know that if I'm doing the same thing in a year's time, then I probably won't be as successful. So I'm trying to get ahead of that one. So I've got an off site in a few weeks with my team and, uh, we're going to go through that. Uh, we don't know the answer, but I'm like, let's work out what some of the experiments we might run. Because I know I need to keep hold of some delivery because I, I'm not a person that can just be a people leader. It's not in my dream set, so that's not going to work. But also I don't want to hold the team back from scaling because I've only got so many hours. I'm doing so much delivery that I can only do so much for them. And that's, that's a work one that, you know, I joined it last year with 600 people when I. 13,000. I've had to do that a few times in the last 12 years, but each time it seems a little bit harder. And then on the personal life, just balance, uh, like, I don't know. Again, I don't think I'll ever solve this. I don't think there's an answer. But I continually talk to my wife. I'm like, I want to be a good partner to you. I want to be a good parent to the kids. I want to be a good son and a good this and a good friend and a good. I add it all up and it's more than 24 hours in a day. And how do I, how do I invest right Properly there. And the reason that it kind of. I use the word haunt before, I probably use it again. The thing that haunts me about that is I don't want to get to a stage where I look back and regret. So I'm 46, I've got two young boys, and I'm like, if, is there an amount of money where I could retire and spend all my time with them and would that be the right thing? And when is it okay? Like, I'm going on a business trip to, uh, the US In a couple of weeks, and I'm away for a week, and my wife's going to have the kids by herself. And I'm like, that doesn't seem fair. Now. She's fine with it. She's like, no go. Like, I'm going to watch trash tv. There's meals in the freezer. I'm good like that. This is how our relationship works. But there's that little bit of niggle in me going, I'm still searching out for that. Not, not utopia again, not perfection. But what that right balance is, uh, of, uh, being a parent, being a partner, being a dad, being a friend, being a teammate in the football team. Like all those things and working out, each one gifts me very different dividends. And it's not that one's better than the other. They're just different dividends. And find that balance is, uh, is something that I'm trying to embrace right now.

Speaker A: It. I mean, obviously that's. I think that's something that everyone's trying to navigate at various points. And we. I'll just share this idea, uh, for you, a little metaphor for you. So one of the activities we sometimes do is we say all those hats that you wear, you know, all the, all those things you've just put right, you draw them on a. Draw them on a piece of paper. And then we. I do this like in a workshop. And then, so I've got this happening on the screen, and then the backdrop changes, and all of a sudden those little hats are actually in an orchestra pit. So. So each of those hats are different parts of the orchestra. And then you start saying, okay, so, and you start asking questions. Okay, who's a bit out of tune? Who's a little bit of ahead of time, downtime.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And the conductor. So who's the conductor? Right? So just think of you. Who's the conductor? You know, and who's tuning, playing.

Speaker B: Like, are you in control of this orchestra? Or is it it just to hold a racket from six different instruments?

Speaker A: Exactly. Do they even know how to play their instrument? Yeah, right. So you think about that, you know, like there's so many different tangents it can get and what we've found is it can just give people just that little unlock. Because if we just, you know, that idea of perfection, probably the wrong thing to chase. But I wonder what a little more intonation sounds like. I wonder what a little more harmony sounds like. I wonder what a slower paced song sounds like. Right. Right now, you know, hey, strings, tone down the volume a bit. We want to hear the woodwind. You know what I mean?

Speaker B: There's another reason why I like that analogy was one of the things I realized was if I dial down work too much, I don't become a better dad because I get a lot of my satisfaction from my work. So if I turn that off, it actually feeds. Part of me being a dad and me being happy in my mojo come from my achievements at work. And I was like, oh, so I need a certain amount of that. I turn that off. That's actually counterintuitive. It's negative. If I do too much of it, that I'm not apparent at all. I've achieved a lot, but I've achieved the wrong. It's like, again, you're right, it's. It's the, uh, the violin playing nicely with the guitar, trying to find that harmony of that mix. Because they feed each other.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you'll find different songs at different times. You know what I mean? Like you were talking about different seasons of your life. And what's that? Yeah, yeah, have a play with that.

Speaker B: That's a good analogy. You should, you should try, uh, that, uh.

Speaker A: I think, I think I've picked it up from someone. I'm not sure who, though. You know, when you've got all that, you know, it's not your.

Speaker B: We're all standing on the shoulder.

Speaker A: It's too good to be your idea. Like, it can't possibly be. So I'm sure it's.

Speaker B: Yes, it's out of the ether somewhere. We're all borrowing someone else.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Dom, thank you so much, mate. Really appreciate your time. Um, I could chat to you for, for ages, actually, because there's so many similarities, um, in, in not just us, our story, but the work that we do in the stories that I guess we're working on with different people. If people are interested in, um, following along with your, um, uh, provocative thoughts on LinkedIn, for example, or your, um, Experts Unleashed show on, on LinkedIn. I mean, I'm kind of. It's pretty obvious, but where they're going to find you leaving the witness.

Speaker B: So, yeah, don Price on LinkedIn or Don Price me is my website. It's funny that you say controversial. I, I just say what I'm thinking. Like I just sometimes maybe I've not got a filter, but I, I've never gone out of my way to be controversial, but people keep on telling me they're like, oh, that's. That was a bit provocative. I might, I do like to.

Speaker A: I think so. I think any, any link to any LinkedIn post that doesn't start with humbled and honored is provocative and controversial.

Speaker B: So, you know to be given this award of mediocrity this month.

Speaker A: Congrats. Thumbs up. Yeah, but, yeah, so, but yeah, you were saying you don't see it as provocative, you just say what you think. Yeah, of course.

Speaker B: The intent is, um. The gift I got recently from Dan Pink was, uh, less conversion, more conversation.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I was like, yeah, let's. I'm not trying to be obnoxious or challenge people views. I'm like, let's just put a different view out there and start conversations. I don't need to be right. But if I've got a different view, I should feel okay to share it and then you should feel okay to share yours. And the more we share those different views, that's good conversation. We need more of that. Don't try and convert me to your way because I don't need to change. I'm happy with my views.

Speaker A: I'm happy with mine too. All right, so, mate, thanks so much for your time, really appreciate it. So, as mentioned, you can find out more about Dom on LinkedIn and his website, DomPrice Me. I've put the links to both of those in the show notes. Now, as we always say, there's a fair chance that if you found that conversation worthwhile, then perhaps someone you know would also find it worthwhile. So please feel free to share this as far and as wide as you can, whether that's on socials or just in your WhatsApp groups. Also, if you could take a moment just to leave a rating, leave a review, make sure you've subscribed, of course, because all those little actions, they cost you nothing. It's easy to do, but it has a huge impact on how the Habits of Leadership podcast is then promoted, um, on the podcast platforms. So wherever you're listening, please take a moment now. Leave us a review. 5 star rating if you can and don't forget to subscribe. Subscribe. But until our next episode, thank you so much for joining us. Take care. Take it easy. I'm Dan Hasler, and I would love you to join me and some of the world's best athletes on the Play Fearless podcast. Well, Mick Fanning, welcome to Play Fearless.

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