Jelle Berends (Oyster) on Building RevOps From 1 to 65, Why Playbooks Don't Travel & Comp Design

Speaker A: Welcome to Go to Masters. We sit down with the Rev Ops, Sales Ops and go to market leaders from some of the most demanding B2B companies today and unpack the real thinking behind the decisions that move revenue. I'm your host, Jose Adamanto. Today's guest joined a company in 2019 with a brief to make the commercial organization more data driven. There was no RevOps function, no team, no playbook, just a problem and a hire. By the time he left there were 65 people doing the work across the world he's seen taking that same builder's instinct to Miro and now to Oyster, one of the best known global employment platforms in B2B SaaS. He has a clear view of why RevOps looks different in every organization, why most data initiatives fall before AI even enters a room, and what it actually takes to go from zero to a function that runs itself. Jala Behrens, welcome to Go to Masters.

Speaker B: Thank you. And a great intro. Thank you for that.

Speaker A: Excellent. It's a pleasure to have you here. So tell us before we get formally to the questions, just give us your rundown of your sort of how you got here, brief history, et cetera.

Speaker B: Yeah, so how I got the. I think you covered a bit in your intro. I think uh, I started as an analyst to start where it all began, uh, IMG and LinkedIn, crunching numbers for commercial teams. Uh, that's also what got me into Adyen, um, um, the way it started to what you've said. I think, yeah, I started as the first person on the ground to start one of the most beautiful journeys uh, uh, that I've so far experienced. Um, back then RevOps wasn't the real thing. Right. So we just started and we started to build stuff out and from uh, there it evolved into a global Rev Ops organization. Again. It was so far one of the most beautiful chapters in my career. Uh, really enjoyed it. After that I was responsible for DTM strategy with Miro, uh, and now at Oyster. And uh, yeah there it brings me back to my passion which is building robots organizations, uh, from almost scratch I would say because there's already uh, a team there, but still lots to do, lots to build and uh, to take it further from there. So excited about that one. Um, so yeah, that's a bit about me.

Speaker A: Very cool. I always got into RevOps via the data analyst route. So uh, we have that in common and also got to build teams from scratch. So uh, certainly enjoyable and a ton of learning. Um, so that's a cool common point here. So let's talk about that a little bit. Um, so most Revs leaders now would walk into an existing function that has a team, some tech stack already, some backlog. But let's talk about that experience of starting from zero. There's no playbook and no precedent. Um, what did learning, what did building something from scratch just taught you about what RevOps actually is and how that shaped you as a leader?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think. Um, so when I joined Roland, the CCO of Argent back then, we had a conversation. What were my objectives? What should I, uh, uh, start realizing? And I remember that the first core mission was, okay, let's make the commercial organization more data driven. And I think in hindsight it's kind of where you want things to end up, right? With the data, start looking at what goes well, what can be improved and, and drive your operational improvements from there. But I think as easy we drop that sentence like, let's make it data driven. It makes you think about, okay, but what do we need to do to get there and start to make it. It makes you realize, okay, I need to have a system that is able to capture that data and drive that. Um, but if I have a system, I also need to think about, you know, what are the clear, consistent ways of working that I can capture with that system so that I can universally, um, across the whole team can start, start tracking that. So I think it starts to, you know, if I look back, it was that moment where you start to really go back and peel the onion and start to connect the dots between, okay, in order to get that data. It's also about the systems, it's about the ways of working and how that all is captured into what we nowadays know as Rev Ops. So I think it's, you know, what are the different pillars and the relationships between them. I think that's what I got out of that experience. Um, I think it's also about building a seat at the table, which I think, uh, eventually Revop should be at. Um, but I think when I started, right, there was a performing sales team, they were doing their thing and then I came in like, hey, let's look at what we can improve and can do differently. Yeah, Obviously that also raised some questions, like, what are you going to do here? Right? We're doing our thing. Like, what? Tell me more. Right. But I think over time you start to see more of it, you start to learn more of it, and it puts you in a position where you can come back with like real recommendations where actually things are, you know, there is an Opportunity, improvement, et cetera. But I think it shows you that revlocks over time, especially if it's not there. It allows you to build up that knowledge, it allows you to build that expertise on hey, across the board thinking, hey, what can we do better to reach our goals, etc. And to drive that. So less being reactive to needs, but more in the driver's seat and be proactive about, hey, this is what we should do and should do differently. And last but least it's also fun to do it right. To build it from scratch. So I think uh, a very important as well. Right.

Speaker A: I uh, think there, there's something to be said about the seat on the table, please. Ironically, maybe when you're starting from scratch, you kind of have the seat because people come to you, they need something there. You're building something that's interesting and the impact is pretty immediate in some cases, right. As you start providing something when there is nothing. But then as a function grows, it can get boggled down with just the backlog, the debt. It just becomes that grind. And then again you need to raise the level into more strategic. So I see it, uh, uh, maybe you don't agree, but a bit of a loop at the beginning. Everyone wants to hear from the rev ops person because there's so much to be done. Then there's a middle ground where things can get muddy and you need to rise above that to remain strategic as the function grows.

Speaker B: Yeah, 100% and you evolve it as a team of m time. I remember one day where I've told my team is like, hey, think about what experience we've gained along the way. Like we've seen across all those sales team, what works, what not, et cetera. So next time when we question, like feel empowered to be in a position to advise them what you've done. Like you've seen it. Right. They don't know what else happened around the world in other teams. But we've got those experience in our back pocket market which makes us. Yeah. Puts us in a very strong position to come a real clear great recommendation. So um, but again you don't, you don't get that like you built that over time, uh, until you reach that point. So uh, yeah.

Speaker A: Was there a time in that first build out of the team that you realized, okay, we're now serious danger. We've come to the point where this is actually a real thing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: We're not experiencing. Yeah.

Speaker B: I think there are two pivotal moments. I remember also when I started in a role on my Own. Uh, there was one this game I was like, might become a team, but let's see how it involved. So I remember that as soon as we got some wins out and we start to see the benefit of the work that we're doing on this topic, um, we reached the moment where it was like, okay, we should start investing and build a team around it. And that's one of those moments where I think I solved the promise a bit. Let's start growing it from there. Um, the other moment, if I think back about it, was also wondering at some point, like at some point you get the business in a rhythm of qprs, monthly business reviews, et cetera. And at some point we were almost one on one copying the data for the meetings that the board would have at the supervisory board. And I think that's also a moment where you feel like, okay, we've got to a level of being data driven, being, uh, you know, having the discussions around that data, that it's now actually also reaching those tables. I think that was a moment where like, okay, wow. I think, I think we've reached a point where you can see the value. It goes beyond what we originally thought, but uh, in a fantastic way.

Speaker A: Yeah, that for sure was tremendous validation. So that must have felt good to see that numbers.

Speaker B: Uh, definitely. Definitely.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Um, so you touched about earlier. You want data, but you need systems and you probably need processes and all of those things are connected and they're kind of tied together and you might need to get buy in for something before you can actually deliver the value. Um, any advice or can you tell us how you broke that loop of getting that buy in before you could actually build the valley to prove that what you were doing was worthwhile?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a bit of finding the balance. As I said when I started, there was nothing. So you start thinking about in a year, where do we want to be? How do I get there and start breaking it down in actual steps? Uh, more of the big rocks that you want to go after each quarter. Um, but I think as I said, like, if nothing is there, you need to start with building the foundation, which is not really tangible or having a direct impact like setting up your infrastructure, a database, optimizing the CRM. Like nobody's going to feel the real benefit of that. Maybe in your first year even. So, um, beyond that long term plan of okay, how do you think we actually get there where we want to be with the team? It was also making sure that almost half of my time was about okay. What things do we find in the GTM teams that, that can get immediate action? Like what is it that can free up their time, drives productivity or quick fixes. Right. And I think by being able to deliver a few of those, you start to see that uh, oh hey, you know, he's there, he can help us, he can drive stuff and it starts to create a bit of momentum and at the same time if you're still making sure you keep, you keep the progress on the bigger topics that allows you to be in a year where you want to be. I think that that nicely eventually comes together. But I think it's also as much as you want to do for the overall business, it's also about, yeah, you have people in your go to market teams. What can we do to help them to start creating that momentum and have an immediate impact?

Speaker A: Yeah, that resonates for sure. There's something to be said about even, even if you can start reporting on how bad things are data wise or whatever, that that's a way you can start building that trust and say this is where we're at today, this is what we're building towards.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, shapes the conversations, it drives the conversation and it takes time because at some point also people are looking for those insights and they go, they go everywhere to find it. They have multiple sources too. And I think also you know, when you start giving them a bit more of that, you get a little bit of those discussions, things speed up, like there's more alignment, et cetera. So um, yeah, quick wins I think sometimes underestimate, but especially in the beginning, it drives a lot of your momentum and the impact that you have.

Speaker A: Any mistakes, you see other leaders or teams do when they're trying to set up a new program, a new team, but they're trying to jump some stages and avoid the foundational stage. Is that something you've seen before?

Speaker B: I think it's maybe not. Well, I think it's especially relevant for rebels, but I've seen it in other teams as well is that sometimes leaders come in and uh, they've had experiences from the past and uh, they think that playbook can almost be copy pasted into their new world. And I think as much as it shapes your vision and it drives some of your thinking of hey, how can we do better? I think especially on RevOps, the orgs, the teams, the rev ops organizations are shaped around the organization. What's happening there or where do we need to drive focus. And I think um, as much as for instance, I think sales teams in that sensor as an example are a bit more well established. Also there are differences. Right. Do you have hybrid roles or do you separate that, et cetera? There's a few of those design questions but I think especially on Revolves there's a lot more of those decisions to make. I think coming in into an organization with the assumption that you can kind of copy paste what you have in your previous organization that it works instantly. I think in any organization or team that probably won't be the best approach. But especially in Rebels because it's so tailor made to what's happening in the organization and where you need to drive focus it's going to fail. So I think that's where it's really about getting in, understanding what's happening, where does the company want to go, how can we contribute to that with RevOps and start dictating the next steps, the org design, the focus areas in your team, et cetera. I think that's what I think leaders in this space should be doing. But sometimes it's a bit underestimated.

Speaker A: I agree. Also there seems to be many companies the very first time they stand up a rev ops or sales operations team happens when they hire a senior leader that has had sales operations before. Right. So that's an area described. They come from a company, maybe they get serious, they hire a CRO. CRO shows up and they realize immediately oh, there's no sales ops here. We need sales ops. Someone goes and hires someone and then they just assume they can just do whatever they were doing before. And that's almost never the case. Right. Every company is pretty unique. Yeah.

Speaker B: And also sometimes there's many. I've had many of those conversations as well. And I think what's also different there is if they're hiring you with with already the immediate opportunity to invest in one or two key people versus okay, you know, let's try it with one person on the job and see how it evolves. I think especially if you're hiring a leader who needs to see the overall landscape, the end to end customer life cycle, what works? What like if you go then into solution and you need an analyst or an ops person, um, somebody on deal desk, you name m it like there's so many different roles within RevOps that will help you build a solution. I think sometimes it's a bit an unrealistic expectation from that one leader to take to take the seat of all those different roles that you can play in a RevOps team. So I think that's also where I think yeah if the company comes with that, with that vision of hey, we need a rebels person, but as well, what are the two, three people that we will help, we will hire as well to help support and build that out. I think that's usually the starting point where it's like, okay, I think they get it. It's about looking at the bigger picture, but with very specific roles underneath that to drive the solutions.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. In that way RevOps is different from many other teams because we're really made up of many specialists that we each branch of RevOps, they're all related, they're all work together, but it's kind of very different. Right. So if you're a, I don't know, sales manager that have sales reports, well, you're gonna have sales five salespeople that kind of do the same thing as a RevOps leaders, all your direct reports are probably very specialized in something quite different. Right. So you might have analyst, you might have a CRM admin you might like. It's all sorts of, uh, different lenses.

Speaker B: I think you're the one that brings the toolbox to the thing that you need to fix. But in there you have a hammer, you have a different machine. Right. There's so many flavors in there. And I think, uh, yeah, uh, that's the way I look at it. It's like, yeah, you have that massive toolbox with you. But yeah, what do you need to kind of solve for what you find in there? And again there's lots of flavors in there.

Speaker A: Yeah. So on, um, the topic of the org, when you, I mean typically we just said RevOps might mean different things for different companies. It also seems to change depending on what the reporting function is. Like sometimes RevOps is under the CRO, sometimes under finance. If there's a COO, it's maybe an operational role. Um, if you're joining a company as a RevOps leader, what are the kind of questions you would ask to just understand what are the priorities for that company? What do they mean with RevOps? And just to find your bearings around that.

Speaker B: I think that is like when I was doing the typical questions again, I think I've just mentioned this as well. It's like, okay, where does the company want to go? Where is that 3, 4, 5 year vision, et cetera. What are a few of the key things for go to market that we need to start addressing and then start to think with revolts? Okay, hey, uh, what are the focus areas that we should start driving and we should start helping to solve For I think that's usually the critical taking that uh, happens in the first couple, uh, of months. Months. So you get a good understanding. Okay. On the long run, where do I think we can add most value, um, and build it out from there? So I think understanding that long term version is what I would say is the number one step. And I think it's also um, a fair assessment of what's happening today. And why is it happening? Because again, rebel organizations are coming in so many different flavors and different shapes and I think there's a lot of history in there as well that got you to this point. Um, I think you need to take that into account as well because there's lots of stuff running and I think it's easy to say, let's just break it and do something different. Uh, it's happening for a reason. So definitely. Also don't ignore the past and look a bit into that as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. So brave. Just very wise advice there. I think there's an instinct of arriving in a place and just immediately being too quick to judge the past. Right. But what's all this mess? How can it possibly be there? But usually there's a reason. It's not always an ideal reason and it doesn't mean you can't get to fix it. But in general I found that just bluntly, people are not idiots. Like there's something happening, someone at some point it needed to happen. So you've got to be a little bit humble, understand what's there before you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's also, we're now talking it from a perspective when you join a company. But I can also say my time at Igen, when I was the first person on the ground, my first year was next amount of challenges. My second year was completely different. Right. Already my uh, third year, my fourth year, like every year as the company grew from 450 when I joined to 4,4000 the team from 1 to 6. Like every year, new challenges, different challenges, different ways of working. So, um, it's not only when you join. I think also when you're within that role and things evolve, you need to constantly keep reeveling. Like, okay, how do we align ourselves with what's happening in the overall go to market organization and especially with growth and changes, there's a lot that you need to resolve as well.

Speaker A: So yeah, I think you nailed it there. The starting with the big picture, go to market strategy and revisiting that as this company changes and as time goes by. Because ultimately that's what we're here to support. And yeah, there's a lot of maybe tactical and mid range projects we need to do to make that happen. But if you lose sight on that big picture, you're probably going to be just in a corner where you're working on irrelevant stuff and then getting that back is really hard later in your.

Speaker B: Hundred percent. One hundred percent really hard.

Speaker A: Awesome. Um, let's talk a little bit about sales compensation and variable composition in general and where, I mean we just. There's a good argument to be made that Comp belongs in RevOps because it's a function with the clearest view of how sales work, what the funnel is, the behavior and the business needs. Um, so what's your view on putting comp inside of RevOps and what does getting that right look like?

Speaker B: Well, I think the reason why it exists there is that I think revops sits on the story of what's coming. Like are we progressing towards goals, if not what's happening, why is it happening, et cetera. And I think ultimately you wanted to be able to navigate the direction where you're not running into it yet. Right. So you need to be a bit more forwarding. And I think revop sits, sits on the forecast, sits on the outlook. Uh, and that's the starting point where you can think about, okay, are we moving in the right and if not, what behaviors do we need to incentivize? And I think look at any other team out there or organization in a company. I think, uh, RevOps is where that kind of thinking happens. So I think that's why it fits there. Well, yeah, in some cases it could. I think also there it really depends on how your organization is structured and how it fits in there. But I think the overall thinking is what I think puts comp in a nice spot because then it's about influencing the behaviors to make sure we realize what's next as opposed to trying to correct from the past. Because then again it's too late and it's really hard to act on it. Um, so that's why I think the benefit of that forward thinking modus in Rails really help benefit the ticking around complaints and how to drive behavior as well. Um, I've been always lucky to have it within my scope and have it part of Revlo. So big believer of that in that sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean it's the ultimate test, right? You can say that if you really want to see a company's sales strategy, you have to look at the complex because that's what's actually hitting the ground. And that's what people are operating on. So you can have however many slide decks with all these lofty goals, but if the plans are pointing at something else, what are the goals?

Speaker B: What are we driving the people towards? Yeah, that's really ultimately what it's about. So yeah, 100%. So definitely, uh, one for within the RevOps portfolio.

Speaker A: All right. A line there for sure. Uh, as a RevOps leader now, um, curious about how do you spend your time working inside with your team and in parallel with your peers? How much time do you spend with each other's functions and how do you have that mental switch of working the team or. I'm building relationships with the different leaders. Um, I don't know if I have anything to share with our audience here.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think it's also there. It's about finding a balance I think overall where my time is mostly spent almost together with, with uh, my CRO, but also with my peers. Think about, okay, hey, where do we want to go the upcoming quarters year? Um, I would say a bit of a mid year view, uh, midterm view so to say. Uh, but I think having more of a feeling, okay, what should be the core focus areas for wrap ups, uh, and drive the priorities from there? M and then I think depending on where we, you know, what's currently on our roadmap, where do we feel we can have the biggest impact? Um, uh, diving into it from there and driving whatever is needed for people to feel unblocked and that they can start delivering the solutions. But again I think especially also in this game that you play is like almost on a constant you think about. Okay, I wouldn't say on a constant you think about the priorities because you try to set them free for a bit of the short midterm, uh, and ultimately come from a long term plan. Right. But I think in there you always try to keep it up to date with what's relevant today and the upcoming months. Um, and then again, yeah, there's so much variety in there because one day you find yourself driving more the operational side of the house, then the other day you're going a bit more in some of the tech solutions that need attention, uh, and more where different uh, topics are burning, so to say. So I think that's also maybe the key thing about being a rev Ops leader. It's about finding that balance ongoingly on a constant basis. And it's really hard to put a constant figure on it because one time you on the strategic level think about, you know, what do we need to do to upcoming two quarters. And then from there when the execution hits, you go really deep in and try to navigate that and make sure we deliver the solutions. That's that. So there's a lot of fluctuations in there. So as much as I'm a data cruncher to put a hardcore on it, I would love to, but I think it's really hard to uh, do it like this.

Speaker A: It's hard sometimes as a leader, once you get to the point that the stuff you used to love doing, you can't really spend your time doing anymore because that's someone else's job and you have to now.

Speaker B: Yeah. And especially uh, back then at Arnie where we grew so fast to around 65 people. Like I started on my own. So I was in it myself with all those topics. Uh, and obviously you start to hire people that are going to take more of those responsibilities. Um, and that's sometimes the miss when you reach the. You know, when you're leading an org of 65 people, sometimes it's just nice to go into a topic where you get into the details, especially if you come from there. But I think at some point it's about empowering those people, uh, being able to delegate and have the org as a whole to move, move forward. So it's.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's. The only way to succeed is just to hire people smarter than you. Ideally empower them, get out of the way. But uh, it's hard. Talk a little bit about that, that growth spurt. I'm interested. Even if it's. I know every company is different then it's not going to apply for everyone. But if you can retell the story of that growth from one single individual to 65 in a bit of detail, like where did you hire first? How. How did the pieces come together as much as you remember, but just give us a flavor of. But that.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's good. I think there's three phases I would say is like in the beginning it was about building the foundation. So I think it started with me on my own, um, thinking about, hey, what do I want to achieve my first year? Because that was, that was kind of the year. Do we sell our promise? Or maybe not ultimately it was the case. But I think that that's how I look with my first year. And over time, as, as I said, especially when I start to have the first wins and deliver value, uh, with the work that I was doing, uh, it became easy to also set to your point, hire people that are smarter setting up the infrastructure a Database, the CRM, et cetera. That's why it requires people with key expertise in this tech domain, uh, at some point. Also the number of insights that you need to pull to really get through recommendations that you want to drive, um, you need to go deeper, you need to do more extensive deep dive. So it also uh, strengthens the need for an analyst, um, uh, and then in general the ops person, I think being able to kind of uh, bring back everything that's moving in the organization into what should be our key gold standards of our processes, of the way we work together, et cetera, and drive that across the whole go to market team. I think you start to get some first things going and then you start to realize you need to go deeper and then it's the point, point of hiring people that are smarter than you and that own that key expertise, that specialism that can drive it further from there. So I think that was phase one where it's about building the foundation, getting a uh, key person on each of those domains. Um, second phase I would say was also when Adyen was going to hyper growth. It was also starting to see, you know, as much as the priorities start to grow, things that we start need to address for travel, et cetera. It's also asked you to look at okay, hey, what are all the priorities out there? What can I do with what I have and what, what do I need to drop and then have a discussion, okay, how many people do you want to add to your organization to still make sure you deliver all of that what you currently can do? So I would say that was the second phase where it was a lot of debt taking and where to invest in that phase we also start to expand scope because for instance when I joined enablement was still kind of standalone, but again at some point we saw it also one of those variable tools in the toolbox that you can throw at some of the problems in the GTM organization. So I think yeah, it started to evolve as well. Pricing was another topic. There was also yeah a bit of a topic on its own. But then we saw that can really also be a real driver of the stuff that we do in ops. So I think that was the growth phase and I think the last phase where it was about you know, ultimately also as an organization we, we hit, I uh, think it was three and a half thousand, four thousand people where you also feel like if you, if you get there within a few years the growth masked also a lot of things that fundamentally you need to start addressing because yeah, the way you operate at, at the level of what I've just said versus when you are 60, 65 people across the globe. Like it really requires a new level of thinking. So that's also the moment where you go a bit, take a few steps back, think about the bigger picture. Like how do we want to shape the organization that it aligns again with, with with the rest of the organization that has grown significantly and well as well etc. So it's in. The last part was more optimizing and modifying what we have to make sure that would become a true global, functional operating DevOps team. Um, so yeah, these are kind of the three phases that I would.

Speaker A: I love it. I think that just in summarizing, the first phase is sort of fundamentals build out second phase hypergrowth and third is the fine tuning and maybe revisiting some of the things that worked before now. Uh, they're just putting on a new lens of now in this new world of inside 100%.

Speaker B: Because as much as you know you're going to grow fast, it's also like it's not that you can say okay, let's already start working where we're a team of 65. That doesn't make sense if you're 10, 15 or 20. Right. Um, still within a year or two you're going to hit that. You need to kind of bring that back like on your original design etc. So um, lots of shaping, forming and optimizing as you go.

Speaker A: Yeah. So uh, you mentioned enablement. It's funny, I think enablement as well, that's a sign of maturity in a revops. Org where enablement, you start looking at that piece, uh, it adds a lot of complexity but it makes a ton of sense and it can be a super powerful tool. Um, and also pricing and I just want to drill down on pricing because it's been my experience that uh, often there's not a lot of pricing experts out there in the world that you can go and really solve a problem. So I think in every company I've been at someone has sort of landed that job and just, they just have to get good at it. But it seems to be hard and again it's another thing that has a massive impact on performance on comp and everything, getting those bundles right. Uh, how was that experience for you? Just tell us your, your path. Uh, on the pricing, I think it's.

Speaker B: It started or the original need came from the fact that we were. It's more like the deal desk side of it. It's like, okay, yeah, we're, we're running into deals. Uh, we have our standard terms and conditions or our view on what the prices should look like, but ultimately we're going to, we're going to run into negotiations and we need to think a bit. Okay, what do we want to do to, to make it happen, but still in a sustainable way where we also feel happy about deal. Right. So I think it's fine. That, and ultimately a lot of folks in the sales team were doing that themselves. And then at some point we said, okay, we need to start better support that with data insights. I would also make sure that we come up with a consistent way of doing it and that it doesn't, you know, it's not going to be leading to wild growth everywhere. And different ways we do our, we do our deals. So I think that's where the original meat came from and I think it's, it started with us to really make sure we provide support to people in the field. Um, but at some point we also start to see, and especially when we start to also diversify as a company and bring more services to customers, um, that is at some point it's also like moving more into the topic of okay, how do you in general want to monetize, how do you really want to offer your service and packages, et cetera. And especially if that offering is start to change it start to see that also on a strategic level you have a gap and you need to start, start filling that so that we can get the starting point right. Okay, this is how we want our service to the market. This is how we want to price it and package it. And from that point onwards, this is how we want to think about our discount kind lines or the way we want to uh, do our negotiations, etc. Etc. And I think especially when our offerings start to evolve, we start to see that gap as well. So that's why it wasn't just dealdesk or deal support. At some point also monetization became a, a much bigger topic, um, uh, because it was about retaking our value proposition and how to, how to position that in the market.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly the journey. Right? You start with it. Is it a tactical problem to solve? And then it becomes a bit of maybe of a governance headache. But to really unlock that strategic aspect of what good pricing and bundling and packaging can do, that is massively important.

Speaker B: Now. Now, also, sorry, that just occurred me while I talk about it also brings me back to what I've shared earlier. Right. How, um, Rev up evolves itself as an organization. It's really tailor made to the organization and how uh, in the first place the organization involves, right that whole the thinking around deal desk and how it, how it went from deal support to monetization, et cetera. Like that fitted perfectly in the journey of it back then. But I think any other company has a different way to get there. Right. So to come up with that model right away and, and yeah, I think it, it in that sense it has came so naturally and it evolved as a whole. Um, sweet memories as you see.

Speaker A: Yes. Oh well, sometimes the hardest projects are the ones that we have best memories of. So it's worth doing the work. Yeah. All right, um, last topic to touch on today is of course AI. We have to talk a little bit about AI today. Every Go to Market team is asked to provide an AI strategy today. But most of them just don't even have a data strategy. And if the data is bad and the model doesn't exist or it's incomplete, the output is usually pretty worthless. Um, what's your view on this? I mean coming from what I've heard from you today and your background, uh, I'm sure you're not going to disagree with the premise that data is important, but is it just a RevOps problem? Is that an everyone problem? How do you see this data as it relates to AI being able to deliver on their promises?

Speaker B: Well, we're all in it, right? I think we all want to have the benefits of it. So we also need to make sure that the underlying infrastructure uh, uh, is supported by all of us. And I think this was also a topic already years ago, right? It was classic CMM talk about oh, we need to pull in the numbers for management. It's like yes, but I think maybe with AI it's now becoming more obvious that also as an individual usually you get the value out of it because yeah, it can give you back the insights, the next steps, the answers on your emails, your outreach, et cetera. Like it learns for you on how to also you as an individual to execute your job better. So therefore I think the value becomes a lot more easier for people to see. Okay, if I put quality and I get quality out, if I put garbage in, I get the garbage out. I think therefore it's more easy to convince people. Yeah, we're all in it. Um, but I think it's not different from, from years ago where I think it's also like yeah, if you, if you're expecting management to drive decisions based, drive the Best decisions based on proper data. And we all have a role to make sure we keep that CRM clean. So I think, um, but again, I think with AI and the hype around it and also the many, many different use cases you get to experience as an individual, it's a lot more easy to sell. Right? Let's make sure the data's clean and we get tons of benefits out of it. You directly as well. Go for it.

Speaker A: I love it. I haven't heard that take, but it's a good one. And I think it's really true because often it's been an externally imposed thing where I said you have to do this and salespeople don't like to be told what to do and they don't want to be told what fields to fill out. Uh, but now you're right, there's an immediate benefit for everyone. A and B, some of those things that we used to have to fill manually can now be automated from conversation. Uh, so you don't. It's easier to do, more valuable. Um, and frankly, it's always been important. That's the other thing. Like, we've always wanted to have clean data. We've always talked about, uh, data catalogs and data governance and it's all those things that were really hard to do and maybe hard to connect the value from all the work into the day to day. But now with AI, all of those things immediately become context for your tools and it just, it's so much more valuable than ever before.

Speaker B: Sorry, Loop.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think you're right then. It's also like, also make me think like a lot of the dirty work is now done. You mentioned the recording, uh, software that's obviously available there that fills in all of the stuff in your CRM as well. It's not the most fun admin work. We can all be honest about it. Right. But now it does that work for you, which leaves it only for you to validate, to make sure it's accurate that you have rich, like, less burden on your shoulders, a lot more easier, less time spent on admin, more time you can start spending on selling and the great side of the job. So I think, yeah, uh, there's benefits of it in many ways, but I think ultimately, uh, it's a responsibility of all of us, 100%.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with that too. Um, just to close in the AI topic, what's anything that you're working on, any project that's got you excited today, around the field, even could be a personal one, but what's got you going, um, around AI?

Speaker B: Well, I think this actually something that triggered my thoughts is that, uh, at some point when I was interviewing, there's already organizations out there that are now building AI, specific sales ops organizations. So they're not to kind of optimize the human side of the things, but the agent side of the things, et cetera. And that was an eye opener where I talked like, the first use case that everyone is now looking for into is like, okay, how can AI help me support my job? Uh, as kind of a first take, first way to explore the benefits of it. Um, but it made me think, right, it's like there's a bigger step to kind of take, which is thinking about, okay, how does it fundamentally change your vision of how you set up and build a team, an organization, uh, that drives AI truly in the center of it all. As, uh, to what I've just said, not just team supportive, it's really in the center of your workflows and how it drives something from A to B to C. And I think that's something that makes me think the most is like, okay, beyond just the supporting side of AI, like, okay, how can we really embrace it in a way that's going to fundamentally change the work? Uh, because there's. I mean, there's many of Those posts on LinkedIn Things you see out of there where you're like, wow, that's like next level. Than just, okay, how can it help me with my daily task here? Right. So I think, um, that's mainly where I try to think of is like, okay, how can it really help us evolve beyond just the supporting resources?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that that's a good take. It's not just how do we do what we're already doing, better, faster and cheaper, but what are those things that we couldn't do before that we now can. That would be important to the business. Right. And that's a whole other door than we haven't even started exploring, really.

Speaker B: That's the thing. But it's also like, if I think about the number of companies that is that far as the company that I was talking to, I think from all the conversations that I've had, there was maybe one or two that were really at this stage already. So I think, yeah, that means the other ones are still, still, uh, not there as I think it's. It's not just me. I think everybody, um, is.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. Is taking their steps and is trying to get there. But again, it's evolving so fast. Yeah, it's it's about keeping up and trying to think more, uh, think more and more and in different ways about it to make sure we get the most out of it. Out of time.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And I see a lot of those LinkedIn posts and I take them with a big grain of salt. There's a lot of things in there that I don't know how sustainable will be, but time will tell. But yeah, it's about experimenting and just starting somewhere.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it needs to be. I think if it goes in a pace, where it goes smooth, it's uh, a running. Yeah. I think especially where AI is today, it needs to be hacky fast and you need to try things and break things. Otherwise you're probably going slower as your competitors. Right. So I think it needs to be a bit of a. That's the, that's the risk of trying things out. Sometimes it fails and it's not paying off. But I think lots of learnings as well that you will find in there. So, um, yeah, it's, it's a nice mess that AI can bring.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally awesome. Well, so really enjoyed the conversation, had a ton of great insights. So thank you for participating. Um, I think it's, it's come through on the conversation that you, they see Rev Ops as a function that, that grows, not something you install. That we've talked about how it's. It's different for every organization, um, and is really centered around what the business needs. Right. It's all looking outside. What is the strategy at the moment and, and bringing that in. I think we talked about having that builder's instinct, uh, that's important for a Rev Ops leader. Uh, just ability to bring in from zero to growth to maybe stabilize, to rethink and have that virtuous cycle of, uh, progressing the function. So I, uh, love hearing that and I think that's what the community needs more of. So thank you for your insights on that.

Speaker B: You're welcome. Enjoyed it.

Speaker A: Excellent. Before I let you go, we always ask our guests, is there any book, framework, research, podcast, anything you would recommend to someone that's starting out a career in RevOps?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Um, I think, uh, like books, getting things done or getting stuff. I'm not sure I've read it like years ago, but it was an I like if you get something on the plate, you can, can do it within one. Do it like take it, take it out with your brain. I think that's maybe the most easy but effective one I've ever, ever saw. Um, the other thing is also that I forward more recently especially when I took uh, short time off after, after Arjen is uh, the power of the community. I think there's many uh, uh, communities out there. Pavilion for instance where I was part of for some time. It's like getting, getting into the discussions with your peers and real life practical examples of what they face and their roles. I think that is also uh, uh, a real value that I think would definitely also definitely point people towards those communities. Um, there's a, there's a lot of valuable stuff out there where we're all figuring out the same challenges. I think uh, yeah, uh, stop, stop, stop reinventing the wheel like many others have thought so to get that knowledge out of them and bring into practice.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And then you're right there, there's a lot of people out there in the role. They're all, we're all dispersed across all these companies. So you're the only one in your org that is doing this. But uh, every company like you will have one or two people that are on your, on your shoes and they will have seen the same problems. And in many cases we're happy to share and it's a lot of non competitive environments where we can just share a lot probably more than other orgs. So that's a really good advice.

Speaker B: It's nice discussions talking about your toolbox and uh, what you want to fix with it so.

Speaker A: Exactly. All right, well thank you. Uh, this is Jelly Barons, VP of Revenue Operations at Oysters. Thank you so much for being on and for everyone listening. Uh, leave us a review on Spotify or Apple and connect with Jolla on LinkedIn. We'll have the links in the show notes.