Ep 22: Cameron Clarke - Co-Founder and CEO - Sunderstorm

Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in IT and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their firsts. I'm your host, Matt Egan asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you find us.

Speaker B: Subscribe.

Speaker A: And if you are an interesting person in technology, let us know because you might be the next first person. The next voice you hear will be today's guest. He is Cameron Clark. Serial entrepreneur, adventurer, startup expert and philanthropist. Cameron is driven by creating products and companies that ah, are deeply rooted in culture, history and science. They add to consumer choices for health, happiness and well being. Cameron has a stellar track record of launching successful, innovative companies with high impact applications, I would say because he has a knack of leading technology teams to solutions that actually want and need. So you'll see Cameron is definitely one of the most interesting people in the wider technology world and we are delighted to have him as a guest on First Person. So Cameron, welcome and first of all, what is the first thing people should know about you?

Speaker B: Thanks Matt. Happy to be here. I'm looking forward to this podcast. Um, so I'm a little bit different than your normal uh, tech, tech, ah, person or entrepreneur, um, you know what's what, what I think is really great about what, you know, how I, how I work and what I'm excited about is that, is that I love technology, I love science, I love engineering. It's what I studied at Stanford back in the day. Um, but I never formally really used that. I use it informally in a lot of different businesses that I've, that I've uh, started over the years. But I also love plant medicines. So you know, uh, you know I, Today we have Thunderstorm, which is uh, the, the company that owns the Khana brand of edibles in the cannabis industry. So we are delivering those to consumers, uh, you know, all over the world, uh, primarily in the US but we also operate out of Thailand. But we use technology in very interesting ways and I'm sure we're going to get into that today. But the thing is, what that I think is really interesting for people to know is that what I really love is blending the best of mankind, the science, the technology, the engineering with the best of mother nature, which she can produce on her own and making, delivering products and solutions to consumers, uh, in really compelling ways. So that's what drives me every day and I think it's good for your audience to know.

Speaker A: Yeah, awesome. Absolutely love that because one of the themes of our uh, little show here is the application of technology to realize problems, right? To actually impacting and improving people's lives. And we haven't had that specific spin on this before, but I'm really interested to get into this conversation with you, um, and we'll move straight to section one. First things first, because this is where we do get to know about our guest by understanding some of their first times. And in that context, Cameron, I'm really interesting to ask you about, you know, your route into this role. Like, like normally we ask about the first job in it and to your point, you qualified and studied uh, technology, um, but you've done many different things in many different roles. So, so I'd love to know how you got into what we might call the technology space and how that brought you to where you are today.

Speaker B: Yeah, so, So I have a, I have a fun little story. Uh, right out of college, uh, in the 80s, um, dating myself. But right out of college I actually took a job at a steel trading company in New York. And um, you know, I wasn't quite sure what the job was and they threw me into this project which was uh, an 80 million dollar a year project of shipping steel from, from California down to Mexico and then back, uh, back to the US for, for uh, you know, there it was being processed at Imocoladora and then shipped back to the U.S. and sold all over the U.S. well this project was being run by a secretary and she was tracking everything in columnar pads and pencils. So, so since I had done you know, software engineering, I'd studied software engineering at Stanford. I came in there and I said oh my God, we gotta, uh, we gotta write some code here and you know, automate a lot of this stuff and be able to give, you know, give the sales reps information that they need and track inventory and all that. So I wrote up, I wrote a platform back in, in uh, dbase in those days, um, that actually tracked everything gotten allowed the sales reps to put all their orders in and you know, streamlined everything because it was a, it was, it was a mess when I, when I came into it. Uh, and that was a very exciting time for me because that's when I really got the chance to apply software and tech in a compelling way that truly changed something overnight. I mean literally within about two or three months we went from being a colossal mess to actually being very, very organized and uh, and well structured. So uh, it was, it was an exciting time. But I couldn't believe we were doing $80 million a year. This little project

Speaker A: that was real money back then as well. Right, so, so immediately, even though you're not in a quote unquote technology role, you're applying technology to solve a real world problem. Although I do want to go a little bit further back because you kind of brushed over it. But you, you know, you went to study, um, technology, computer science, software engineering, um, at a prestigious university in the 1980s. So like something must have driven that. Right. What do you think was the impetus behind.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, well, you know, I was always a tinkerer. So, you know, I'm the guy that had the little, the little, uh, TRS 80, you know, um, uh, from HP, um, as I recall. Um, anyway, the little, the first little incarnations of little computers and writing, you know, started writing basic code, you know, back in the 70s. And um, and so I was, I was hooked as soon as I saw, you know, like all of us that are in this world, you know, as soon as I saw how you can, how you can change, ah, you can track information and, and uh, and use software in compelling ways. I, I just love to sit down and write code. Um, which is kind of odd that I never really fully became a developer rent or fully ran development teams and got it. You know, being in Silicon Valley in that day was, was, was a very interesting time. But in the end I ended up using these skills in a different way. Right. I used it in, in really just applying them into whatever I was interested, uh, you know, uh, or doing it at, at any particular time. So, um, yeah, I mean, so, so what really led to. Led that was that I was already doing it and I started studying at Stanford and I just fell in love with it and I, I knew that, I knew I was in trouble when I spent 24 hours writing, writing a program at the lab one day. So straight through, yeah.

Speaker A: In trouble or. Yeah, maybe a sign of, uh, good things to come. So we left you kind of working for this organization, you know, applying technology to the task of driving sales of steel. Um, but that's a long way from where you are now. So what happens then? How do you continue to apply technology to solve problems that you are passionate about, which is where you've got to today.

Speaker B: Well, so what was interesting was that I started doing a little bit computer consulting on the side and was involved in a lot of different types of projects, ah, helping you know, small businesses, ah, with their, with their needs application, um, needs. There uh, was a lot of that going, you know, through the 90s. Um, one of the things. And then I stumbled across some guys that wanted to create the world's first, uh, computerized electronic, uh, electronic courtroom. So they needed someone to come in and write the code with them and run the team and all of that. So I volunteered, I put in, you know, uh, we were. There were five of us, you know, we all took 20% and I put 10K in the business and, you know, started writing code. And we ended up building the world's first electronic courtroom. And it was interesting because what we actually did was we took. Wow. We, we took videotapes of depositions and we digitized them, which is very difficult in the. In the early to mid-90s. Um, uh, and then we uh, synchronized the transcripts with the video so that made the video fully searchable. So we had this platform launched in 94, 95, uh, and had it in some of the biggest cases worth hundreds of millions of dollars right out of the gate. So it allowed, it allowed the, uh, the, the attorneys to be able to access any moment in a deposition just by doing a text search. So it was very compelling. Uh, and it was, and it was incredible technology, but it was also ahead of its time. And it actually ended up taking a good five to 10 years before it was really fully adopted, which is a problem because that's a long time to wait for a startup.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, especially in an industry like. I mean, law is notorious, right, for being slow to digitization and transformation because everything's kind of written in books. How does one survive that? Uh, if you've got to wait five years for your startup to really. I presume you were doing other things at the same time.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I was, I was doing other, other projects, but I was fully dedicated to that, you know, m. Um, mostly dedicated that. To that, to be honest. I mean, we were selling, but the business, but the business never really. We were too early. I mean, that's the bottom line. And I actually, this is one of my. One of my topics that I like to tell, uh, you know, like to talk about in the tech world is whether it's. And it's. Whether it's molecular biology or it. Or whatever. It doesn't matter to me if you're too far ahead of the curve. You have to wait too long for the adoption cycle, for consumer adoption of whatever that thing is. Right. Sometimes like email, even though it's radically different, the adoption cycle is pretty fast. But I think for me, most times consumers just take a long time to actually adopt new technology, and you have to be aware of that. And so for me, I've realized that through a lot of the experiences that I've had that you need to be a half step ahead, not a full step ahead of where, of where the market is today. So that's one of the things I encourage people to think about, is make sure it's only a half step so it's easier for consumers or companies, whatever, to adopt the technology and then drive it further along that we actually, I think that was a good lesson for us. We created this incredible technology, but we, but in hindsight we should have structured a little bit differently to cater to the market that was ready for certain features ahead earlier than others, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it makes total sense. I mean, in my previous life I was a consumer technology journalist and I couldn't tell you the number of people who showed off incredible things that actually were, you know, later on successfully adopted. Um, but just to your point, were not in the right sync with, uh, consumer behavior. And then on the other side of it, you've got an organization, Apple being the principal one, who has rarely been first to market with things, but somehow seems to figure out how to, or certainly in the past how to apply technology at the right moment, at the right time. The iPhone's a classic example, right. There wasn't a huge amount of new technology in there, but it was just packaged in a way that was exactly at the right time, a great learning to make. Right. But I guess during this period then, so you have this organization which was selling but was a slow burner, but I mean, something's given you the platform to be able to be a serial entrepreneur, right? So, so I presume over this period of time you had enough success that it was able to kind of give you the, the freedom to pursue things you're passionate about.

Speaker B: For sure, for sure. And I actually took that technology and when the Internet came around, we applied it to the Internet, right? And so we became a webcasting platform, right? And so we, everything went online and we were able to go and, and deliver all kinds of applications to, to, to businesses and non profits and educational institutions. So we created, you know, educational applications for, for learning, right, that used, you know, text search and integration of documents and video and all that. You know, we had customers, uh, you know, many of the big, we were based out of Washington D.C. so we had many of the big departments in Washington, including the CIA and the Department of Defense and Department of Labor using it for, know, a variety of applications of, of internal trainings and, and external webcast so, so that, that was successful for us. Uh, we ended up selling that company, uh, in 2007, 2000 or 2007, time frame before the crash, which was very, very lucky. So, uh, that was good.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's handy.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, so that was good.

Speaker A: And also really interesting learning there. It's not always the, like, recognizing the value in a product or solution. It's not always the thing you initially intended it for. Like, the best example would probably be aws, right? Like, Amazon was building its own infrastructure and then realized it could sell it to the rest of the world. Um, but it sounds like you had this set of tools and applications that was intended for an online courtroom. But guess what? You kind of invented, um, um, webinar, uh, software, and that was the thing that kind of took off.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And, and, and education. Right. So it was kind of interesting. Here's another lesson, right? So when we first started approaching Stanford and Harvard and Yale and, uh, the big universities, Columbia, um, you know, we said, oh, look at this great new technology. We can stream your, your, your, your classes online. And they were like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't want to do that. This was in 2000, 2002. Right. So, you know, they just weren't ready for it. So we, we pivoted, right, and focused on other applications until the educational institutions were more ready to, to adopt it. That wasn't. You have to look for the right markets to adopt the technology or the widget that you're building. I think that's one of the mistakes that I learned the hard way.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I think it's a, I think a lot of folks in IT and, and technology, you know, have learned that, uh, that as well. You gotta, you gotta look for where is, where the early adopters are.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And we're gonna come on to mistakes in a minute, so hold that thought. Um, but just to round out kind of the first section, so many great learnings here. Um, one of the questions I like to ask around about this time is, is the first great boss or the first name that comes to mind when I ask for a great boss? I'm wondering, with your career, like, so much of it has been, you know, you pursuing things on your own or in teams with other entrepreneurs, like, like, do you have that kind of great boss story or do you have a mentor figure or has it been more kind of, um, about kind of the collective, like, learning from people around you?

Speaker B: No, actually, actually, I have a great story. Um, and it's not really it, uh, in particular, but when I first started with that, with that steel, ah, trading company in New York, uh, the owner, the business was doing about $2 billion a year, um, in revenue. There were about 200 people worldwide. Um, it's like a six or seven year old business. They were, they were, they were totally, uh, crushing it. The owner was a very interesting guy and he taught me a really good lesson. He. Whenever, you know, I wanted to learn all aspects of the business. I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to learn all about marketing and about sales and about, you know, technology, all of it. So I worked really, really hard, very long hours, and he was happy to reward me. When I was, you know, sitting at the water cooler with him, for example, of, uh, I'd ask him all kinds of questions, well, tell me about this product and tell me about this, you know, what's happening in Brazil. And, and he would be happy to spend five to 10 minutes sitting there explaining this stuff to me. And I realized that he was an invaluable resource of knowledge and information that would help me later in life, not only to just learn about the business that, you know, we were doing, but also learning about some of the pitfalls in business and, and how to, and how to, and how to sit in the CEO chair one day. Right. So, so that lesson is carried through to me, uh, through every business that I've ever run. And right now here at Kana, you know, I tell my team, only 50% of your compensation here is money. The other 50% is your ability to learn new skills, do whatever you want in life. And if they, and if someone in marketing wants, wants me to tell them about what's happening in production or wants to learn some accounting, I'm happy to talk to them about it because I think it's really, it's something that I enjoy sharing and I enjoyed learning, enjoyed learning that from, from my mentor, uh, the CEO of this cup of DeferCo back in the day. So, um, that's. I'm very quite, I'm quite passionate about that.

Speaker A: Yeah, it, no, it came across actually even as you were saying, even as you were talking about the value, uh, of those conversations, um, my next question was going to be, I bet you pay that forward. Right? Because, because, because the value of the network is one thing, but also like, uh, you know, I find in my, my professional life I've had similar experiences and I find now like I, I love when someone wants to ask me questions about my experiences for two reasons. One is because it's great to pay it forward but also you learn yourself from having those conversations. Right? Curious people are so valuable and like it's like everybody benefits from that kind of information sharing. This is wonderful. Cameron, so many learning question I'm asking you.

Speaker B: Yeah, let me add one more thing there though and that is I think in technology whether it's like whether it's you know, a research scientist doing molecular biology or whether it's you know, soft coder, you know, writing something, you know, write it, writing code in, you know, Facebook, oftentimes they get pigeonholed in these very narrow, very focused jobs. Uh, and I think that's, it's, I think it's hard on those people. So in my mind the more that we can round them out and give them access to other knowledge and information, allow them to, to tinker and explore. And I know that Google for example allows people to have 10 or 15 or 20% of their time whatever to be able to tinker. I think it's really valuable for, for, for them, uh, for a person individually and, and I think as a society we should definitely drive more of that.

Speaker A: Totally agree, totally agree. It, it's, it's a, it's. Another theme of this series is we sit here talking to successful people and so often they will talk about the fact that they were able to succeed because they had technical chops in one area but they were encouraged or given the space to explore and understand how that fitted into the wider organization and then it allows you the ability to give more, uh, to figure out more. I mean I do think as a slight counterpoint, I think there's also a role for the total dedicated technology specialist, um, who chooses that route, um, and wants to stay. That is an important thing. But I think in order to kind of, maybe it's the thing about strategy versus tactics, in order to move things forward you need those people who are able to think beyond their.

Speaker B: I'm not necessarily, I'm not, I'm not saying that everyone should have a broad, you know, uh, should focus on a variety of different things. What I'm saying is you can go, you can go hard and you can go deep and that's fantastic. We absolutely need that. But uh, there's value in having someone who's going deep and hard to also understand a little bit about what's going around them. Right. This cross pollination of ideas is totally agreeing.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree. And that, that came across, maybe I confused it. Um, so like again Cameron, this is wonderful. Like we're learning so much. It's a really cool conversation. It's too positive though. So I want to hear about some failures. You already hinted at one before. Um, but, you know, I, I personally believe that we learn, um, as much from our mistakes as we do our successes, if not more. You mentioned earlier, uh, you know, the mistake of kind of, uh, the wrong time for, for a solution. I don't know if I asked you what the first big mistake is that comes to mind. Like, like, would it be that or is there something else that you can think of?

Speaker B: You know, one of the big mistakes had lots of engineers and it. People know this, um, is that some, at some point someone comes up to you and says, oh, my God, I've got this incredible idea. If we could just build this thing, this widget, I can sell the hell out of it and we're going to get rich. So, so I learned that lesson the hard way. Uh, what. Someone that I knew, uh, pretty well actually came, uh, to me and said, you know, I've got this application. It's, you know, and if we build it, you know, just, I, I swear we're gonna, we're gonna make a ton of money on it. There's no, there's no, nothing out there like it. Blah, uh, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I spent a year and a half writing the code, working with him, you know, and we ended up selling three. We ended up selling three copies. So, so, and, and of course it was unpaid. Right. So, you know, because we were, we were partners in the business and the business failed. Right. So, so I learned the lesson the hard way, like, uh, engineers and, and people in tech, you do have to be careful that you understand and think about the applications.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, you, before you invest your time and energy in something, I mean, it's out there. Great opportunities are out there, but you do need to think about it a little bit ahead of time. That was a, that was a, that was a hard lesson. Yeah.

Speaker A: That speaks to a lot of the themes of what we've been talking about. Right. Which is again, the application of technology to solve a real problem, to improve people's lives, um, like timing being everything. Also just that concept of having a wider understanding beyond the technology. Again, if I go back to my consumer tech journalism days, number of people who showed amazing things that could do amazing things, but weren't necessarily going to actually, you know, be popular or successful. Like. So, you know, I think there's a theme here, Cameron, and I think maybe, you know, your, your, your personal success or your, or what you, you, you bring to the table is this understanding what actually drives value and then being able to apply technology.

Speaker B: Yeah. I have, I have a, I have an interesting story about that. Uh, at one point I was starting a business.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And was very excited about the technology and all that. And I learned another hard lesson. I was sitting, we were pitching into VCs, you know, I think, you know, probably the fifth or sixth VC that we were sitting in front of. Uh, he was kind enough to give me some advice and he looked at me and he said, he said what you have to realize is that you've built a race car engine here. But it's only an engine. You gotta build the car, you gotta find the driver and you gotta know what track you're gonna run it on. Right. So, so that was, that was also a very good lesson. Right. Uh, in tech. Right. We love these, we love cool things. Right. But you have to wrap it with the whole enchilada to actually be able to deliver a full solution. Yeah. Market.

Speaker A: And if you, if you wanted to extend the metaphor as well, like, like maybe people don't need race cars.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Maybe actually what they need is, is like a, like a Honda Civic or something. Right. You know, like I, like I've seen that in technology as well where the underlying tech is, is, is incredible and next generation. But actually the problem that needs, what people need is something that's scalable and priced correctly or you know, uh, basically I'm, I'm torturing your metaphor. But, but, but there's, there's a lot in that I think. And that was great advice from that vc.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, I wonder if as well, like one of the questions I like to ask is, is because you, because you're someone who, you know, has definitely learned from mistakes but also seems fairly, you know, clear sighted and sure footed in what you want to do. Like is there a first time you realize something that you thought you knew might actually be wrong?

Speaker B: Yeah. And that, that was also a very hard lesson. So, so I started, I started a business, a consumer products business. Nothing to do with tech, but a consumer products business. Um, uh, with a, with a very close friend, actually a couple of very close friends. Um, and we ended up launching the business and we spent three, almost four years building the business. And, and we, not only do we get, did we get it off the ground, we got it into nationwide distribution. It was about to take off. Uh, and then my partner decided to steal half the biz or steal the business and, and drive it into the ground. And destroy the entire opportunity. So the company was worth at least $10 million at that point, and it went to zero over overnight because of my. Because of the issues I had with my partner. And what I've realized, uh, and I've known this for, you know, two decades now, and I've been talking about it for two decades, is that, in my mind, a lot of challenges in businesses, in business, but this. But for me, the single hardest thing in business is partnerships. And for a variety of reasons. Ethos, you know, morals, philosophy, exit strategy, implementation, just, you know, how you work together. So, uh, you know, I think it's, you know, uh, the lesson is pick your partners very carefully, but make sure you're very transparent and open about everything before you start. Because. Because it's. It's very difficult to do to. To launch these companies. And so you've got to be. You got to be fully aligned. And so we do that every day here at Kana, and it's worked out. It's, you know, because we're. Because we're operating in that. In that mindset. All of our partnerships, thank God, have been rock solid. So, um, it's. It's. It's very helpful.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because. Because you said. You said, you know, make sure those things are straight at the start. I think in my experience as well. And you just said it then. It's an ongoing thing as well, because the exit strategy has to be aligned, or at least everybody has to get what they need from their various exits kind of thing as well, and timing. So it sounds like you've got a very strong organization there, because. Yeah, right. Got to keep checking in. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, some people may. Wait. May want to continue operating for 10 years, and some people may want to be out in five years, if that's even an option.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you got to be really crystal clear with each other. Like, that's. That's what's happening.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I've had. I've had numerous problems with partnerships. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, I can imagine. I mean, it is. It is like, to your point, it's. It's probably the. The most complex part of that aspect of running a business. Right. Um, yeah. Appreciate. And appreciate you sharing that, because that's. That's kind of personal, you know, but. But a good and important learning. For anybody watching or listening to this. We're going to move on, Cameron, because we want to get to know you beyond your professional life. Um, and we do that by, uh, using our random question Generator to ask some completely random first questions. Um, so would you. If you could give me a number between one and 15.

Speaker B: 14.

Speaker A: Number 14. Ah, okay. Like. Like we're going back to the origin story here. Can you tell me something about the first time you earned any kind of money doing anything?

Speaker B: Well, that would probably be my lemonade stand with Sam, my neighbor back in, uh, back in. Back in the 70s.

Speaker A: There you go. That's what we wanted.

Speaker B: We did have the good old lemonade. I don't remember what we charged, but I know it wasn't much.

Speaker A: Love it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think.

Speaker A: But it was probably 100% profit because I dare say m. You weren't.

Speaker B: Yeah, we did it on our own too. We didn't have any. You know, a lot of parents are pushing their kids, uh, to do this kind of stuff. We, we just thought it would be cool. So it was. We had. We had a blast. We had as much fun building the damn lemonade stand as we did selling the lemonade. So,

Speaker A: yeah, I mean, I think it maybe. Maybe, you know, foreshadows your entrepreneurial career that, uh, that was something you went out to do. And I will say to, uh, those of us of non us persuasion, it is the perfect answer that you built the lemonade stand because we presume all, uh, American children do that at some point. Because we. We get all of our cultural movies and TV show. Go on. Then give us, give us one more number between one and 15.

Speaker B: Uh, two.

Speaker A: Number two. Ah. Uh, okay. I, um, wonder if you could tell me something about the. The. The first, uh, vacation that you remember. Maybe it was a family vacation or something you did on your own.

Speaker B: So, uh, my first job out of college was actually working for the US Government, Right. Which I quickly soured on for reasons I'm sure a lot of people can imagine. After 11 months, I decided that I needed a vacation. My parents thought I was crazy. So, um. Because I, you know, we incurred a lot of expense and then. And, uh, you know, going to Stanford and all that and got, uh, a couple friends together, we ended up going to Africa for. For six weeks. Um, and it was an amazing trip. The funniest part of the trip, actually, was that at. When you're young and just out of college and you're a guy, right, you think about going to beaches and hanging out with girls in bikinis. But my other friend, he's like, no, let's do something more interesting. Let's go to Africa. And I was, uh, I didn't want to, but I decided, you Know what? I'm going to do it. And it actually ended up being a trip of a lifetime. It was an incredible. It was an incredible experience. We did amazing things that no one can believe we did back in the day. Um, and, uh, I wouldn't trade it for the world. Uh, it did cost me an arm and a leg and I ended up taking, I think three or four years to pay back the debt. But, but it was, uh, but it was great. And I came back to no job and moved to New York and started a new career. So. Yeah, but, you know, sometimes you gotta wing it.

Speaker A: But to your right and to your point, like, you, you know, you probably can't do that most times of your life and what experiences like to have, like. And, you know, it almost speaks to this idea of kind of broadening your viewpoint as well. Right. You saw a whole different part of the world and presumably had experiences that you would never have had, like, had you remained working, certainly working for the US Government.

Speaker B: Incredible. Yes, for sure. I mean, it. Honestly, it led me, it led me into a much more. It, it is the, it is the path that actually led me to a global view of humanity. And that was. And that's really one of, that's really just one of the things that's led us to where we are today, like, really, really feeling, you know, passionate about wellness and helping people and understanding what, you know, how changes that we can make, um, for humanity globally. And I think, you know, I learned an incredible amount as, as a, as a young person just in those six weeks doing crazy things. So,

Speaker A: yeah, amazing. And, and yet again, we ask a random question and it elicits a really insightful and almost philosophical answer. I sort of feel like. I wish, I wish we in the west had the capability to send every child, um, to have an experience like that, because I think the world might be.

Speaker B: You know what? I will use this as a. Come on.

Speaker A: I'm sorry. Let me just.

Speaker B: Before, Let me just, Let me just say something because this, I'm very passionate about this. I actually believe that if every child, everybody that comes out of high school could spend one year doing social work somewhere around the world, you know, just get out of the country and go do social work somewhere around the world, this country would be incredibly different than it is today, um, and have a much better understanding. And if other countries did it as well, the globe, the global community would be, Would be, Would be a much better place. I think one of the challenges we have in our, in our culture is there's a Lot of us, and we don't understand each other, and I think that's important for us to take the time and energy to do so.

Speaker A: I, I hard agree from my side and as it relates to my country too, um, we're gonna have to move on. Um, and I'm sad to say we're coming to our final, uh, section. But I'm really excited to ask you, uh, Cameron, what's the first piece of advice you would give to someone who is just starting out today?

Speaker B: You know, I, you know, number one, I mean, there's. There's a couple things, actually. Number one is only be a. If you're going to create something, only be a half step ahead of the market, not a full step. We talked about that earlier. And then secondly, you know, pick your partners. Pick your partners wisely, be very careful and have good, open, transparent conversations. Uh, if you're developing partners, um, uh, on anything. Um, that's. Oh, I'll. I'll throw a third one in there. I kind of. And I kind of mentioned it earlier, if you're an engineer or you're, you know, you're a tech person, be careful when, when, when, when salespeople come up to you and tell you that you're going to get rich if you just build this thing for free for them.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Really, really wise words that, um, I think actually apply to kind of any career.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It doesn't have to be technology at all. Um, and, and final question, Cameron. Um, you've done so many things, had so many experiences. If I put you on the spot, what's the first project or achievement that you would want to tell people about? Like what. What is. What is your masterpiece?

Speaker B: You know, I actually, I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you two answers here. Um, um, I'm really proud that we built the world's first electronic courtroom. You know, I think we, we learned a lot in the process, but I think it was very, very compelling, uh, to actually drive that innovation back in the day because the application is so powerful. Um, but secondly, I'm really proud of what we've done here at Kana. Right? And, and, you know, what we're doing in the wellness industry and using cannabis to change people's lives. And I just want to mention that, you know, this integration of the best of mother nature with the best of technology and being really innovative and using nanotechnology and scientific rigor and engineering and all of that to make these products really amazing. We're Very proud of that. And we're proud to be quite different from most of our peers in the industry because we don't cut corners and we deliver products that, that people love. And to be honest, all those challenges that I mentioned earlier, we've avoided those pitfalls because of the experiences that I've had in the past. And we've been able to navigate this, this crazy industry much, uh, better, I think, than, than a lot of others. And it's because of these experiences that I've had in the past. And I'm very proud that we're delivering these beautiful plant medicine products, uh, that are helping consumers with sleep, with pain, with anxiety, with having. Enjoying lives with their friends and uh, and not waking up in the morning with hangovers. So. Yes,

Speaker A: well, these, these are, uh, I mean, great sentiments to finish on and thank you so much, Cameron. And these are pretty laudable things to, to have achieved, um, to take all the experiences you've had and, and to reach this point. So my thanks to Cameron Clark and thanks to all of you for watching or listening to In First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in technology and learn from them or make some tick by focusing only on their first. I have been your host, Matt Egan, asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you may find us. And if you are an interesting person in tech, do let us know because you might be the next first person. But I have to finish by giving my sincere and heartfelt thanks to today's guest, who has been, as I'm sure you'll agree, absolutely incredible. So many insights, so many interesting stories. I feel like we could have spoken for hours, Cameron. Maybe we will at another time. But my sincere thanks to today's guest, Cameron Clark, and goodbye to everyone.