Ep 21: Manu Gopinath - President, UST

Speaker A: Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in it and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their firsts. I'm your host, Matt Egan, asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you find us. And if you're an interesting person in it, let us know. You might be the next first person. The next voice you hear will be today's guest. He is Manu Gopinath. As president of ust, Manu is responsible for leading business operations, executing strategy, and ensuring operational excellence. He describes himself as passionate about building innovative and high performance environments. And he has dedicated his career to bringing together teams from across the globe, inspiring them to create positive change that truly transforms lives for customers, for partners and communities. So you can see Manu is definitely one of the most interesting people in it, and we are absolutely delighted to have him as a guest on First Person. So, Manu, welcome. And first of all, what is the first thing people should know about you?

Speaker B: Thank you, Matt. Uh, thanks for the opportunity to speak to your audience. I'm really excited to be on your show. Um, as for me, I'm a small town guy from the south of India. You know, been in the United States for the last, uh, 22 years. I, uh, live in Seattle, uh, now, and I'm very fortunate to have an amazing family of my wife and two wonderful boys. Um, and I consider myself extremely, incredibly lucky to be in the technology business and surrounded by some amazing, amazing people. Um, as for personal strengths, uh, I believe learning is a key strength of mine. And I'm also someone who likes to look at the bright side of things when adversity hits. Um, things that have helped me in my life and career. Um, you know, I'm somebody who embraces a little bit of balance and reflection. Uh, what that means for me is, you know, be passionately involved in things, but, you know, knowing when to kind of step back and recharge and allowing others to, um, take on things and shine and create, put in their creativity into things when, uh, you work in teams. So I've found that to be quite incredible personally for me and for the teams around me, so I can go on more and more. But I would say these are some of the quick things that people need to know about me.

Speaker A: Amazing. Like, thank you so much for that, Manu. Like, I really feel like we're, we're getting to know you, uh, quickly, and there are so many things, so many interesting threads that I hope we pull out as we go through this conversation. So really, really appreciate you being so open, um, and talking to us today. So let's move on to our first section, which we call First Things First. And this is where we get to know about our guests by understanding some of their first times. And given the background that you were kind enough to share with us there, I'm really interested to, to find out about your route into this industry. To find out your first job in it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I would say my first job, I mean, it's accidental, uh, that I ended up in it. Uh, I wasn't planning on it. Um, I graduated, uh, in the mid-90s and at that point, I mean, you know, graduated in India and at that point, um, you know, pretty much everything around it because we had the Y2K problem going on. And anybody who could just touch the computer keyboard could end up getting a job in uh, IT and move, um, you know, possibly move to the United States. At that point I wasn't too keen on a job like that. Um, so I first tried a job in sales and I didn't like it. And a friend of mine said, you know what, you don't have to really struggle this much. Um, you know, why don't you just, you know, try out some coding, um, you know, classes, take some courses, learn something and you can pick up a job. And I finally gave in because all through my school and engineering, you know, whenever there was programming, I would do it, but I was not really, um, attracted to it. Yeah, I didn't think of it as a career choice for me at that time. Um, but when this opportunity, um, when I transitioned out of that first job, I just lasted only two months in that sales job. And I said, okay, I'm gonna pick up a programming, uh, course. And while I was doing it, there was this company, uh, called USD, um, you know, an American company. As I said, I'm from a small town in south of India and they're coming there and setting up shop and I'm like, okay, this is great. Um, I wanna try my chances. I don't know anything about it, but uh, I did apply, uh, um, and interviewed with the founder, CEO and, and it was an interesting conversation. I didn't think much was going to come out of it. Um, you know, we just had joint conversations. I'm pretty sure even today I think if you had asked something about any of the programming basics, I probably wouldn't be here talking to you. Ah, representing USD, that's for sure. Um, but luckily it was general questions, interest in things, interest in business and I didn't think much about the conversation but, but I did get the offer. I was surprised myself. Um, and that's how I started, um, as a software engineer in USD. Now USD is a very interesting company because this organization was set up in 99, um, around um, the dot com boom. But by that time it was set up in um, uh, late part of 99. The boom was slowly becoming a bust. But the idea of the company was to help the startups, help the dot coms kind of do amazing things, um, uh, in the marketplace. And what we realized was that we did some really cutting edge technology, uh, for many of the startups, um, very cool stuff. But by the time we invoiced uh, the customers, many of the startups, the venture money had ran out and many of these startups just perished. And we were at that um, pivotal moment where we had to really think about is this the right strategy for the company? Um, and then the company kind of pivoted to move more into enterprises and look at how to help uh, large enterprises do their IT related um, work. So that was an interesting moment, but it was an amazing learning at that point as a startup. It was really phenomenal. Um, you know, it's a bunch of young college grads coming together. Have no idea. But the founders had a great vision. I remember when I, when I first talked to the leaders, they were talking about, hey, we want to build uh, one of the best IT companies in the world. And I'm sitting there thinking, you know what, we're just starting up, we're around a random conference room, a bunch of us with computers sitting around. I didn't think much about this company or about the job. I just wanted to get some experience, then move on. And it was interesting that the initial time in this company was more about getting to know each other, setting up the right culture. Um, the founders talking about the mistakes that they have made, they're talking about why fundamentals are so important. And we were impatient. We were like, okay, when is, when do we get to work on real projects? The first few weeks were like trying to do some of the um, internal projects for the company's internal operations and things like that. But then we started seeing things, started seeing things happening. Customers coming through office space, more people. Um, then we started seeing the growth, but foundationally the value system, the culture, all of those were given a lot of emphasis. So now as I look back 26 years later, I look back at it, I would say they were brilliant in the way that they set up the Foundational elements, uh, very well before rushing into customers and products and projects and all of that. Um, so we're very fortunate, uh, to be in an organization like that and, you know, be part of it and then get transformed. As my career got transformed, the company got transformed, many thousands of, um, engineers, their life and career got transformed through that organization. So proud to be part of the firm. I mean, you know, after 26 years, we are 30,000 plus in around 30 countries. So from a, uh, startup of, you know, 15 to 20 people, it's really grown, uh, over the years. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, but I mean, there's so many things to unpick there. And thank you again for, for sharing so openly. But I, you know, uh, I love this idea of almost being the. The accidental technical person. You know, you're. You're very kind of open in saying, you know, you feel grateful and fortunate that you met the right group of people. Like, but it's interesting. I mean, what, what did they see in you? Right? You obviously had something that. That made them think Manu's, like, important to our organization. And maybe it is that fact that you have the engineering background, you had an interest in business and you could adapt to the technical skills, but you were more than just a technical person. I don't know. What do you think it was that made it a good connection from their side?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I tried to, uh, look back at it and, you know, try to uncover, uh, what would have happened, uh, at that point. Right. What, what helped me to get here. And I think the. I was more interested in the business aspects. I was very keen on how things come together. Um, I didn't know at that time, but when I look back, I can see that, okay, those were interests. Those were some traits I had that helped me. Um, m. You know, I was always curious about how do things come together? How do you. So as a startup, there's just a group of people with a big vision and big ambition, but we had no clear idea as to exactly how things would be done. So everyone's trying to figure things out. You know, if it is a recruitment process, if it is a project management process, everything people came in with sufficient experience. But to put it together for a company, nobody has been in that. I mean, some of them have worked for large corporations, and we were putting together that experience. So that was a huge learning, um, opportunity for someone like me. So whenever I had that opportunity, I would get things done. And, um, without me realizing that it was all about, hey, I could get this done or I could figure this out and get it done. And I think that led to there were a series of hundreds of different things that needed to be done for a startup to function smoothly. Uh, while people were focused on projects, I was more focused on or I was more interested in putting the building blocks for the company, the elements that would help the organization. Somehow I had that interest. Um, maybe it's because, I mean right after my engineering I went and did my mba. So part of it was mostly on the business. That inclination to look at the business, uh, more than just the projects, uh, was probably what led to it. As I, as I look back at it now.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's such an important factor. I think you'd be amazed at the number of people who sit in the chair you're sitting, talking to us. Um, and there's always certain elements. Right. I have to say engineering comes up a lot, um, with people who've had successful technology careers. But then it's the ability to combine sufficient technical skill, you don't have to be the best, right, but sufficient technical skill with that broader vision of where the business needs to go. And I think what really resonates here is it's the perfect match because you're that person. But the organization was, even at this level of being a startup, was mature enough to recognize these are the kind of people we need to grow and to get things done.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I would say, you know, if I look back at my career, it was not a, um, straightforward path just in it. I mean I started off as an engineer. I ended up, you know, um, managing projects, um, all of that. But in between had different things. I mean I ran some of the recruiting, some of the policy making for a startup without having a formal role. Right. I mean just helping on some of these things because that was interesting for me, helped to set um, up companies, initial IT infrastructure. I worked with the VP of technology who ran our unit at that time, um, to kind of scope out and get the servers and the infrastructure and the boxes and everything in. Um, so it's a learning opportunity. I didn't know much about it. I took uh, inputs and kind of figured it out. Um, and later I ended up doing uh, a stint in human resources. All of that, I mean everything helped me learn, understand, um, create some value that helped the business move forward. Um, and as I look back at it, I think that's been a tremendous learning opportunity to kind of solidify some of the skills that wouldn't uh, typically come just doing the IT programming job function. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, and everyone's different, right? And for some people being, being that that pure programmer is the route to go down again. I think it's really interesting that you, you, you feel fortunate, but I'm glad you say fortunate rather than lucky because obviously you were capable of taking advantage of this route. And one of the questions I was going to ask you was about the progression, right? Is it a straight line? And it can't be given the various different hats that you wear even today. So it's interesting that you would, you know, even within organization they recognized Manu. Yeah, he's a technical guy, but also he can be over here helping build HR as a function. And, and you know, I think it's a really interesting career progression and a good learning for people listening and watching like that. It doesn't have to be a straight line up a ladder kind of thing. Like, like the ability to take on different things and learn different skills can be a really valuable part of a career.

Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree with you, Matt, on that one. Um, because, um, when I moved into non programming jobs initially even I was wondering, hey, is this the right kind of career? Uh, but at the same time when I noticed that, okay, this is solving a need, I felt like, okay, there's value in it, um, and all of this is giving me a learning opportunity. So I doubled down on it. Um, and if I look at the first, uh, progression, um, I would say from a technology side, the first progression or change was when, uh, our CEO at the time came and asked me, uh, if I could help him out on human resources. How it happened is because in a casual conversation I was saying, hey, look, you know, we could, we could look at improving our people practices. And he was asking me, you know, what are some of the things we can change? And I give him some suggestions. I didn't think much about it. Then he said, oh, you know, it would be great if you could put some points together for me, um, so that I can take it up. And I remember putting together some bullet points and ah, sending it to him. Nothing came out of it. Then one day he came and asked me, um, hey, can you give me a printout of those, um, uh, things that you pointed? And I gave him a printout. Nothing came out of it. Then one day he came back and said, hey, you remember the things that you were talking about, I need some help and can you help me, uh, do that? And I'm like, you know, uh, I don't think I want to do HR as a carrier. He said, no, no, no, this is not a carrier. Just do it for some time because you know, we were growing fast as a business. There's a lot of um, you know, people related issues and challeng, you know, policymaking that is required. And he said, I just don't have the time. If he could help, that would be great. Um, and he was an amazing salesperson, so he definitely sold the job to me. And I said I'm not very interested in administration, so that looks a little, you know, I'm not very keen on it. And he said no, you don't have to worry about it. We'll get somebody to do that. But then, you know, in a matter of weeks after I said yes, the whole world of administrative, uh, stuff fell on my head and it was up to me to figure it out. But um, that was, that was an interesting journey. Uh, you know, from just being very crisp about your requirements to specifications to architectural diagrams, to you know, writing code and testing and all of that. I just landed in the world of unknown. Right? You sit across talent who has their own motivations. Um, there's nothing very specific about any of this, right? They're talking in generalities, you can't read their mind. And I'm sitting across people trying to figure out how do I do this? You know, I don't know whether they're going to quit. They're happy, they are unhappy. It was hard, it was hard to find out. And there was a lot of learning in that. What is intrinsic motivation? What are some of the drivers for people? What do they look for? And how do they find value and meaning in the day to day work that they do? So it was an interesting one, but that helped me. So the biggest, um, learning for me from that is how do you put people in the right roles at the right moment, um, and how do you build the team? Because that dynamics, that chemistry that fit the job fit is so essential for an organization's success. Um, so it was, it was an incredible journey from that perspective.

Speaker A: But, but, and also, I mean again, so many things to, to, to pick out from there. Your boss was a smart person because not only did they sell you on it, but you had the, the attitude that you were interested in solving that problem, um, and bringing, uh, bringing some skills and, and, and attitudes and experiences to it. But also if I was trying to construct um, you know, a business superhero, I would want the engineering background, the technical skills, the business approach that the NBA comes in. And then the thing that is often lacking actually is the, the understanding that Everybody's completely different. Right. On, on any given day, what motivates the person can change. We all think of ourselves as robots who succeed every day. And we are not. Right. You know, there are any number of motivational models you can look at. Like, but the reality is being, being empathetic enough to understand how to create a culture and environment, um, to tell people what to do, why and how in a way that that gets the best out of them. Like that, that isn't something that is a natural bedfellow necessary of the person with the great technical skills. Right. Like, so, so you know, what you're building here in this career path, um, it, it sets you up for future success in leadership roles like you're in.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of our questions is, is, you know, to tell us about a great boss. I mean, what you've just articulated there was with some great bossing, I would say. But, you know, in order for you to move through this career, you've needed to be given these opportunities. So it feels like you have had mentors, bosses who.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Who created these opportunities.

Speaker B: Yeah. Extremely fortunate to have a number of, um, good, um, bosses, um, and leaders who really helped me. I mean, you know, as I told you, it was a startup of 20 people. We had, or I personally and many others had the opportunity to work very closely with most of them. Right. Our founder, chairman, I mean he was a visionary. Um, he built like seven to eight companies. Um, so he had decades of experience. Um, he had the big vision, but had the pragmatism to execute things with meticulous planning. Um, and when there was success, he stayed humble so you could learn a lot from that. Um, the founder, CEO, who was my boss for a long time and really helped to, uh, shape my career, he would never take no for an answer. Extremely, extremely entrepreneurial. Um, very technical, very business savvy. Um, a lot to learn. I mean, when you are an upstart firm, you know, you're not even a blip on the radar. You're going against formidable competition and you are trying to create an impact with large enterprises as one of their valued providers. How do you bring in value into every conversation? How do you stay relevant even after you have completed the meeting and gone? How do you get the recall, hey, let's talk to ust. I mean, they had some great things to offer to us. Right. How do you create that? How do you create the theater, um, and the narrative that makes people be interested in buying your capabilities? And so that's something I, uh, Learned a lot. I mean, how do you go into a competitive situation? Um, one of our, uh, first, uh, uh, presidents, I mean, he was the person who helped to scale the business uh, internationally. Um, how do you build close customer relationships, how do you go and set up, um, you know, ah, operations and, and get in the clients that you need. I, um, worked with the first chief operating officer of the firm and incredibly execution oriented, um, very, very transparent. Um, lived his life based on core principles and uh, value system. So you end up learning a lot. I mean, each one of them brings in different aspects but, but when put together, it creates magic. They also live their life by certain code, what they believe in, what gives them the strength. And so doubling down on strengths is something that I learned because until that point I was like, oh, I don't have this, I'm not this, I'm not that. But then you start looking at, hey, the inherent strengths that you have. Just focus on it. And those are things, I mean, I learned a lot, worked side by side with a lot of great leaders and um, um, as I mentioned, I mean, incredibly fortunate to learn from each one of them. So that's been amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah, but it, it, it does feel, and again, this is, I think a good insight for, for anybody watching or listening at any stage of their career, being open to the learning is, is, is a key feast. Um, so this, this is wonderful, Manu and I, I, I really appreciate you, you sharing so openly and so insightfully. Um, but quite frankly, it's all been a little bit too positive. So we're going to move on to our, uh, our second section now, which we call first fails, because I'm pretty certain you'd. We learn a lot from mistakes as well as from success. So if I was to ask you what springs to mind first, if I say, you know, a big mistake that you've made professionally, what is that? First thought when we talk about mistakes.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, made so many, so many mistakes in my, in my career. But the first thing that comes to mind, I mean, I remember, um, you know, startup days, you know, hardly 20 people, we've got the first customer project. Um, the VP of technology comes to me and I'm, I'm fairly new and I'm still getting, you know, used to everything, um, pretty nervous about, hey, how do I perform on this job? All of that. He comes to me and asked, uh, me, hey, can you help to manage, uh, the database for this project? And you know, I knew of databases, but I haven't really managed a database. So for me, I was like, no, I cannot do it. And, uh, he said, okay. And what he did was he constituted a team and then he sent them for training. Now, a friend of mine, uh, you know, who was listening to this conversation, he came to me and said, look, just don't say no to something like that. Right? You could say you should try. Uh, I can try with some amount of help. And that struck me because what I realized was that, hey, if I'd said, yes, I can try, I would have been part of that team, would all be sent for the training on those technologies, and everybody could do it. Right? I mean, I could have done it too. So rather than just chickening out of something that I'm not sure of, I said, okay, let me get the courage to say, yes, I can do it. I can give it a try. I think that struck with me and in this organization. So every time an opportunity popped up, I would say, yeah, I can give it a shot. Um, and that's something that I learned. Right? Just don't say I don't know because I've never been exposed to it. Um, so I would say that would be one of the, one of the big, you know, mistakes I made. But that's also a tremendous learning, um, that I've, yeah, it's a good learning.

Speaker A: Right. Like to say yes, but rather than no. Right? Yeah, um, yeah, yeah. I m mean, because you wouldn't want to, you know, you're not advocating faking a technical school you don't have. You are saying, I always want to be open to the new experience. It's a really good answer, Manu. And, um, um, a really key learning, I think, because it's that thing of, you know, somebody else will say yes if you don't. So take that experience.

Speaker B: That's right, yeah.

Speaker A: Okay, wonderful. Thank. Thank you so much again. I feel like we're learning so much and it's a really good, fun conversation. I'm going to move on to our next section, which we call Quick Fire First. And this is where actually we'd like to get to know you a little bit beyond, um, your professional veneer. And the way we do that is we have a list of 15 random questions. Um, so if you could pick a number between 1 and 15. Manu, I will ask you that first question.

Speaker B: I'll, ah, pick five number.

Speaker A: Um, five. Okay. This might be really interesting actually. Um, um, given, given your background growing up in a small town in India, I would like to know more about that. And actually this question is, tell me Something about your first childhood home, um, that you remember. So I think it'd be really fascinating, um, uh, for our readers and listeners all around the world to. To hear something about that.

Speaker B: The first job at home.

Speaker A: First childhood home. Sorry, I should say.

Speaker B: Oh, childhood home. Okay. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't hear that clearly. Um, yeah. So I grew up. I mean, the first 10 years of, um, my life, um, I grew up in slightly rural part. I'm from a city in India called Trivandrum, which is the capital of, uh, the state of Kerala. Um, and it was. It's a. It's a small town. Um, and, um, growing up, we were slightly far away from the city and it was beautiful. The first 10 years, I remember it was by a lake. Uh, my parents, you know, my dad built the home. Um, and I have really fond memories because as kids, no, no electronics, no TV at that time. You know, weekends were running around, uh, in the property, you know, doing things. Um, and I still remember my. My mom used to work, uh, in the city. So in the morning she would go, um, far to the railway station and then take a train to the city, uh, and then commute to her office. So from the, um, you know, behind our property, I could see, uh, overlooking the lake. Um, you could see the train go by. So there are days where, like on weekends, Saturdays, I would go. And I know the time when the train would pass. I would go there and look, you know, overlooking the water. So now when I go back and look at it, it's breathtaking. Right. I would love to have a home there at this point, but I think it's all bought out now. It's all like, you know, premium, ah, lakeside, proper. But in the good old days, I didn't think much about it, but was phenomenal. I mean, we. Yeah. Uh, and it was rural, so we had like, you know, we had cows and chicken and all of that in the home. But, you know, after 10 years, we moved to the city. So, you know, getting into the typical, um, you know, urban city, uh, life in. At that time in Trivandrum. But. Yeah, that was very good memories of the first 10 years. Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Like, we, you know, you never know what you're gonna get when you ask that question. And that was.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, you articulated so beautifully, like. Like we were there, right? Like, um.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I can't help but ponder, like, it's got to be very different from, you know, your own children growing up in. In. In the big cities.

Speaker B: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker A: Something we all work for, I guess, right. Is we want to put our kids in the best possible position. But that's poignant when things are so different. Yeah, thank you so much for that. Um, let's go again. Can you pick another number between one and 15?

Speaker B: Um, eight.

Speaker A: Number eight.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: Ah, so you've gone into, uh, it's taking you back to that hole. Maybe you've gone down to the lake and you find a lamp and ah, you rub the lamp and out comes a genie. Um, like, what is the first thing you wish for?

Speaker B: That's, that's a tough one. Um, I would say good health.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Good health. Yeah. At this stage in my life and, uh, you know, where I'm at, I would say, you know, good health matters a lot. Uh, so I love to, uh, you know, quality life. Uh, so I'd ask the genie for that. I can't think of anything else. I mean, there are so many material things that come to mind, but nothing beats good, uh, health in mind.

Speaker A: Yeah. 100. It's the right answer, isn't it? Um, like, like, because, uh, everything else can sort of take care of itself if you've, if you've, if you've got good health. And I think we're of a similar vintage and, and I feel the same way. Like if you get, for the next decade or two in decent health, then things are, uh, things.

Speaker B: Yes, totally.

Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that, man. I really appreciate it. I can't believe I'm saying this, but we're coming to the final section of our conversation and I'm really excited to ask you, um, for the first piece of advice you would give to somebody who is just starting out today.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, um, you know, the, the life and the world that we had and what it is today is quite different. Um, and I think there's incredible opportunities for youngsters, um, that are coming into the workforce. Um, my view is learn as much as you can. I know the learning modality sort of changed with the phone and the Internet and the social media. How we consume information is drastically, it has changed, which is good. Um, I would say the first 10 years go all out. Uh, be good at what you do. Um, because in this age of AI, you know, a lot of things will come together. Um, and we don't know. It's very hard to predict sitting here today what will happen five years from now. Everything that we know of. I mean, this is again, an inflection point when, uh, it comes to technology. Um, the first time Ever where, you know, hardware, software, as well as labor is getting disrupted. Right. Um, you know, we've seen in technology hardware and software getting disrupted and improving, but the labor, um, market and how we think of labor is being transformed. So it's very hard to predict what would happen. But the suggestion to youngsters is, whatever you're doing right now, um, leverage technology to help your job. Um, but learn, be open, be good at what you do. Right.

Speaker A: Um.

Speaker B: Uh, you know, I often hear this advice about, you know, uh, do what you're passionate about. Uh, personally, don't believe that's an option for a lot of people. I, um, think you will find your passion later in life. You will gravitate to what you're passionate about, but it'll all come through. But be open to trying, learning, attempting different things. Don't get pigeonholed to, uh, this is all I want to do or I can do. Try different things in the first 10 years of your career. I would say that would be my. My advice.

Speaker A: It's excellent advice. And I, uh, completely take your point about follow your passions. Right? It's like that. That is a suggestion that comes from a position of privilege, um, because, you know, people need to earn a living. Right. But I, I think, you know, what you're saying is go hard, do the work, learn the thing, add value, and then, you know, you will find, I think, subsequent to that, that, uh, that good things follow. So I think that's excellent advice, Manu. And I can't believe I'm saying this, but we're going to come to our last question now, and I'm interested to hear your answer to this. Like, if I was to ask you for your masterpiece, like, what's the first project or achievement that you would want to tell people about, um, from your career and life.

Speaker B: Oh, um, so many different things. Um, I would say, you know, just to narrow down on one, I would say, I mean, in general, my masterpiece for me is my ability to, um, bring together people, um, and the right people assemble the right team to get things done. I mean, I think for me, that is the most important thing. And with that, I can create so many masterpieces and what I've done. I'm very proud of the kind of things that we have done. You know, be it, um, you know, talk to you about, uh, getting into human resources, running the human resource function for the company, or, you know, setting up international business in many different locations for our company, uh, to starting our own internal technology conference, because we wanted to give, um, a voice to our brilliant engineers and showcase and celebrate them, bringing together, um, external speakers in and giving them that view as to where technology is headed. Uh, I mean, so many different things, but, um, I can't just pinpoint one. But I would say if I were to pick, I would say putting together the right people, uh, in a team and creating that magic, to me, that's. That's the most brilliant masterpiece.

Speaker A: Well, it's a. It's a great answer, Manu, to an unfair question. Uh, so I appreciate you being so open, so insightful. Um, my thanks to my guest today, Manu Gopinath, and thank you all for watching and listening to First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in it and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their firsts. I have been your host, Matt Egan, asking you to enjoy, like, and subscribe wherever you find us. And if you're an interesting person in it, do let us know. You could be the next first person. But I can only finish today by giving my sincere, uh, and grateful thanks to my guest, Manu Gopinath. Thank you.