Interview: Maple Cofounder Joe Flanagan

Speaker A: M welcome back to Fintech Business Weekly. Today I'm interviewing Maple co founder and chairman Joe Flanagan. We had the chance to discuss building in the crypto space over seven years of ups and downs, increasing institutional adoption of cryptocurrency and stablecoins, Maple's new partnership with Robinhood, how Maple matches savers and investors with borrowers, and more. A reminder, if you're enjoying this show, please follow rate and review on your preferred podcast platform as it really helps others to find the show. And if you want to help support Fintech Business Weekly and independent journalism, upgrade to a paid subscription or reach more than 92,000 loyal listeners by sponsoring an episode with that. Here's the show. Welcome back to Fintech Business Weekly. Today I'm talking to Maple co founder and Executive chairman Joe Flanagan. Maple describes itself as an asset manager that brings the rigor of traditional finance to the transparency and innovation of crypto. Joe, thank you so much for taking the time. Frequent listeners will know I spend less time in the crypto blockchain space, uh, versus some of the more traditional areas of financial services fintech. So I will provide uh, you with an opportunity to give us a bit of an overview of what exactly Maple is and what Maple does.

Speaker B: Sure. Great to be here, Jason. So Maple is an on chain asset manager and predominantly within that, within asset management, our main, uh, our main way of managing assets is issuing institutional loans. And so that is us issuing capital out to crypto native institutions that are posting crypto as collateral. So they will be posting bitcoin, Ethereum as collateral and we'll be lending stablecoins to them. And so this is providing liquidity to enable the crypto ecosystem to continue to expand. Uh, Maple's been around for seven years. My co founder and I started back in Australia seven years ago now and in that time we've issued about 23 billion in loans. And so we've been able to be a significant player within the lending ecosystem of cryptocurrencies. And uh, and now the most active lender, uh, within the institutional space within crypto.

Speaker A: So seven years, uh, 2019. In crypto years, that's basically infinity. There certainly have been plenty of ups and downs in the industry since then, including other crypto lenders that did not survive the crypto winter of 2022. Can you talk a little bit about how the space has evolved since, you know, you started the business in 2019? And you know, looking back, are there any developments you're particularly surprised by?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, as you look back, everyone, uh, Everyone remembers the blow ups, um, and, and they're the, they're the easiest things to recall. But it's also important, important to step back and look at the amount of progress that has been made. When Maple first launched we were issue, we, we started with a pool of capital of only 17 million was the, the first set of loans. Um, and so the scale of which crypto has been adopted and the amount of institutional adoption has been the real surprise and the continued progress of that. And so if you look back to 2019, the mention of a uh, JP Morgan or any large Wall street based financial institution being involved in crypto in any meaningful way was absurd. Uh, so if you look at the progress that we've made from those early days of when defi or decentralized finance first came about to where we are today with Bitcoin ETFs, the talk of uh, stablecoins being adopted by major M fintechs around the world and just the level of progress that there has been, uh, that continues to evolve where you have institutions coming into play and seeing the benefits of blockchain and the benefits of crypto assets overall.

Speaker A: So you mentioned some of those stats, but just about a fine point on it originated uh, nearly 23 billion in loans and according to the site has about 4.7 billion in assets under management. You explained a little bit about what that lending actually consists of. So uh, institutional clients, it sounds like pledging crypto assets, uh, like Bitcoin, like ether to access stablecoin based liquidity. Can you sort of unpack, unpack that a little bit. Uh, perhaps using an example of one of your institutional clients and sort of explain like end to end what, what, what that transaction looks like or sort of what, what purpose it's then serving on their side to access that dollar denominated or stablecoin liquidity. What would business need is accessing this liquidity serving for the customers of Maple?

Speaker B: Yes. So if you go back to why we founded Maple, so my co founder and I Sid, were working in traditional finance, issuing institutional debt there and we saw the difficulty to raise institutional debt and then the opacity with which it operates, you're still talking about things being shared via email and spreadsheets. It requires hundreds of pages of legal documents. There's no efficiency, there's no transparency, there's no automation. And so we went looking for a solution to that to bring some technology into institutional debt issuance. And that's when we came across blockchain smart contracts, Ethereum down the rabbit hole. We went from there. And so the key distinguishing feature of Maple is that we are um, built using smart contracts. And so all of the operations, all of the flow of funds runs end to end through smart contracts. And so the way that that works is that capital is deployed into a pool on chain and, and then the loans are issued directly from that pool of capital out to the borrowers. There's no intermediary that is stepping in to facilitate that flow of funds. It is smart contracts flowing through directly. And so what that enables is for the institutional debt that we are issuing and the yield that comes through from borrowers to be more broadly accessible. And so that was one of the key things, is that we wanted for institutional debt and, and the yield that's generated from it to be much more broadly accessible rather than being only provided to the elite few like it has been in the traditional finance space. Then to go into your question of, of how it's structured for borrowers is that they will uh, request a loan on chain through the smart contracts. They will post their Bitcoin into custody. And so let's say that it's uh, $150 of Bitcoin will be posted into, into custody and, and then they will borrow $100. And so all of our loans are over collateralized versus the amount of borrow that they're taking out.

Speaker A: Ah, so in uh, so in that example, right, it's over collateralized, meaning the value of the Bitcoin at the time the borrower is entering into this transaction exceeds the amount of liquidity they're uh, they're accessing. I'm assuming given the nature of smart contracts and blockchain, that there are like rules and mechanisms in place that would like liquidate should the underlying collateral drop below like a certain threshold or. Can you explain a little bit about how that actually works?

Speaker B: Yes. So obviously Bitcoin is a volatile asset, and so the price of it moves and the value of it in relation to the loan moves and can move substantially. And so within the technology setup that we have and the monitoring that's in place, we then issue margin calls to the institutional borrowers. And so they then have a period of time in which to top up their collateral, or if they don't or it reaches a liquidation threshold, then we have the ability to enforce and liquidate that collateral. And so this really ensures the protection of the lender capital is that we're maintaining an over collateralized position at all times. And if it gets into any danger level of territory, then that uh, collateral is liquidated to always protect the lender

Speaker A: capital and the institutions who are borrowing through this mechanism. Are there any constraints or do you have a sense of uh, what they're using that liquidity to actually go do? And I guess what I'm getting at is it, you know, are they borrowing against their Bitcoin to go buy more Bitcoin or are there other, other use cases, um, that, that you tend to see.

Speaker B: So there's a combination of borrowers so you can think about them as being the largest financial institutions, the crypto space. And so this can be exchanges. And so all of the largest and best known exchanges, this can then be publicly listed companies like dats and uh, bitcoin miners that are posting their crypto as collateral to borrow against. This can then be market makers and trading firms. And so they all have slightly different uses of the capital, but it isn't really ever uh, leverage plays on Bitcoin. So not like your kind of looping strategies or maybe other things that you see. Uh, rather this is financial institutions that are providing products and need working capital in order to uh, facilitate things for their customers. And so you can think about it as Maple is being able to provide liquidity into the crypto ecosystem overall that is then enabling the further adoption and proliferation of crypto products and capital being issued out into the market, uh, at better and more efficient terms.

Speaker A: Got, uh, it that makes sense. So big uh, partnership announcement recently between Maple and a name I imagine everyone knows, Robinhood, uh, uh, specifically with Robinhood Chain that will see the popular trading app serve as a distribution channel. Can you explain a bit about exactly what that partnership entails and what it's going to enable for Robinhood users?

Speaker B: Absolutely. So Robinhood have been really progressive in their adoption of crypto and starting to bring uh, the efficiencies of blockchain with the launch of Robinhood chain to the end customers. And so this enables them to start to set up uh, crypto native products. Uh, and in particular with this uh, announcement, Robinhood Earn, uh, and so this is where their customers, customers will be able to deposit capital, uh, and so dollars that would then become stable coins into the Robinhood Earn product. Now on the back end of that, Maple along with a couple of other parties are going to be providing the underlying yield. And so that capital will flow through to Maple Smart contracts. Those loans will then be issued out to the institutional borrowers and then that yield will be paid back through interest from the borrowers, passed back to the Robinhood customers. Um, and so this is really a First of its kind setup for a large fintech application to be adopting yield uh generation for their customers through on chain rails and crypto native products using decentralized finance.

Speaker A: That's interesting. So I guess I didn't uh, I have not had the chance to actually like poke around inside the Robinhood app and see what this looks like if it, if it's already live. But I guess I didn't realize uh, it sounds like from how you're describing it it's an offering facing both sort of like normie fiat users where maybe I use Robinhood as my brokerage app. I have whatever S&P 500 ETFs I have maybe SpaceX and now I have the ability to basically segment uh, or set aside fiat US Dollars that go through this underlying uh, yield generation mechanism. I don't necessarily need to specifically buy stablecoins or buy some other asset first before depositing it into this Robinhood uh, earn mechanism.

Speaker B: Yes, that's exactly right. And this is, this is part of a broader uh, adoption that is starting to happen across fintech. If you think about fintech, they've done a fantastic job on user experience, they've done a fantastic job on customer acquisition, uh, but they've always been limited to only operating within the traditional finance rights being the only infrastructure available to them. And now for the first time they have an alternative set of infrastructure to be able to access through blockchain and crypto assets. And so this is where you're going to start to see Robin Hood and many other fintech applications start to sit at that confluence between blockchain and crypto and traditional finance and start to have an alternative to be able to access the transparency, the immediacy of liquidity 24,7 trading. All the benefits that blockchain can be uh, can enable directly into their customers through uh, curated product offerings like Robinhood.

Speaker A: So you already spoke to some of the differences and some of the similarities but can you explain a little bit about how this specific uh, partnership or example. So the Robinhood Earn Robinhood chain example, how does that compare and contrast to the kinds of traditional yield generation products and strategies we would see in, in tradfi?

Speaker B: Yeah, so your typical uh, earned product or savings product that you either get through your bank or through a fintech application will normally be depositing into treasury bills or into other um, uh, low yielding corporate bonds. You have something that's, that has short ah, duration liquidity um, but also pretty low yield overall. Um, and so what this new product is going to enable is that you're not having to give up on the immediacy of that liquidity access. So if you want your money back then you're able to do that, to request that and get it back immediately. Um, but you're also able to start to generate a bit of a high yield. And so it's going to provide a uh, really interesting alternative for customers who can either be earning 2 to 3% in their, in their existing savings products at best to now a higher yielding solution where they're not having to forgo that optionality on the liquidity access that they want. In fact it's actually going to improve because 24,7 operation of crypto on blockchain means that they can access it on a weekend or they can access it at midnight. Um, and so that's going to be, start to be the real user separation is they're going to be able to access a, a higher yield because of the product setup, but not forgo that liquidity optionality that they want and be able to access their capital anytime.

Speaker A: Uh, I guess is the user's underlying capital at risk? So I mean we talked through the structure. It's over collateralized which would imply to me that the risk should be low, if not zero. But using a uh, product like Robinhood Earn, is there a risk that a user is going to get back less than what they deposited into that, into that product or is it truly risk free the way that we think about T bills or Treasuries as being risk free?

Speaker B: Definitely there is uh, a difference in risk profile. So a US treasury bill is obviously backed by the full faith and credit of the US Government which is different to over collateralized lending. But there is that separation in the yield that you're receiving. And so the risk return profile is definitely to the benefit of the, of the customers. And so I'd say the risk, you can never say the risk is, is nothing and it's a nil on, on no product. Uh, but the risk return profile that customers are able to access is uh, is, is something that, that will be I think very appetizing to them as well as there'll be the disclosure of knowing that they're entering into this product. Um, and so I think it just speaks to uh, crypto starting to offer differentiated products directly in an experience that customers are already accessing. And so you think about the millions of users that Robinhood has today, all of a sudden they start to get a differentiated offering to uh, what they have uh, through the existing Robinhood app and the Traditional finance setup.

Speaker A: Got it. That makes sense. I mean, uh, a point of comparison. We were talking a little bit before we started recording about stablecoins in the stablecoin space, which I've spent a little bit more time personally there, given, uh, its intersection with the traditional banking ecosystem, bank deposits and payments. So much of what we've seen for yield generation in the stablecoin space, uh, is really dependent on the relationship between a stablecoin issuer, uh, and whether or not that issuer is providing some kind of quote unquote rewards, uh, for, for, uh, or via a distribution partner. But typically, you know, the setup is that the stablecoin issuer itself, uh, sort of has the first option of capturing yield from the underlying reserve assets. Can you talk a little bit about how Maple, uh, provides a platform that allows the user who's holding the assets rather than the underlying issuer, as in the stablecoin case, to actually capture that upside down?

Speaker B: Yes. So the, the big difference here is that when a user deposits or a customer deposits their stable coins into Maple through the smart contracts is that they begin earning a yield automatically based on the underlying profile of all of the loans that have been issued. And so you can think about this as being, is that capital is being put to real economic use and that real economic use is these loans to institutional borrowers. They go off and then perform their own business activity and then on a monthly basis are paying back interest into the pool which then gets distributed back through the smart contracts to the underlying lenders. And so you have this real economic productive use of capital that is generating a yield and that, that is the separation between uh, an underlying issuer of a stablecoin who is receiving the T bill rate for all of the protection that they're providing for all the backing of that stablecoin versus taking a stablecoin, putting it into a productive use case that generates real yield that is then passed back using Maple smart contract technology to the underlying users. And for, as an experience point, if you come to the Maple application you deposit in, you'll be able to see in real time, block by block on the blockchain, the yield increasing and your customer balance increasing.

Speaker A: You mentioned sort of, uh, the increasing institutional adoption, legitimacy, m maturation of the infrastructure to support all of this stuff. Do you expect to see more existing players, uh, including perhaps more in like the traditional space? Right. Robinhood is kind of like a hybrid. Right. It started as stock brokerage, but now it very much, at least in my mind, sort of sits on sort of both Sides of you know, crypto, stablecoin and tradfi. But uh, do you expect to see more existing players offering these kinds of crypto or stablecoin based or powered yield generating products? And what players, what existing players might this be the most attractive to?

Speaker B: So yeah, so if you think about it going back to when we started Maple is that crypto is kind of operated on its own little isolated island. Um and there's been crypto over here and then there's been tradfi completely separate to it. Um and really up until now never have the two shall meet. Uh, and uh, and FinTech presents this really interesting opportunity because it can be that sitting at the confluence of the two um, and start to be the bridge to help for broader uh, uh, defi and crypto adoption into the overall traditional finance landscape. Um and if crypto is to realize its full potential that needs to happen. Um, and too much so is that is within uh, within the mainstream of crypto is that it's looked upon traditional finance as this negative thing that it does things terribly. Um, and, and that's not true. Uh, you know traditional finance has done many incredible things over a long period of time. Um, and, and so what the uh, fintech and where Maple plugs in is that we're looking to facilitate the best of both worlds. How can we take all of the lessons in structuring risk protection, risk management from traditional finance and incorporate that into blockchain and decentralized finance and all the benefits that that technology provides to create this new financial paradigm. And so I think you see partners like uh, like Robinhood seeing that potential and being able to help with the adoption curve of where they have large customer distribution to be able to bring these products and offer it to their customers directly. So I think you'll see a lot more fintech adoption especially on the back of the Robinhood announcement because they're really leading the way. And there'll be a lot of other fintechs across the globe in many different jurisdictions that look to follow this playbook.

Speaker A: So if I were ah, a Neo brokerage or a Neo bank in that space, why would I trust a crypto company with my customers? How can I be confident that, that what I'm sort of retailing or white labeling or distributing to my users that you know, I presumably spent quite a bit of money acquiring, retaining, um, you know, how can I be confident that what I'm making available is something that is going to serve them well and that you know, that they should trust?

Speaker B: So the biggest opportunity and difference here is the level of transparency. And so what blockchain enables is real time verification into the history, uh, of everything that's happened and into anything that's happening at that exact moment. So if you take Maple as an example, at any time you can come to our application or go directly to the blockchain, see every loan that's been issued, see where every dollar of capital is allocated, see what the yield for each loan is, what the current collateralization level is, where that collateral is sitting. That is just not possible within traditional finance. And so if you were to set up a bond portfolio or if you were to allocate into a bond fund of any kind, you're reliant on reporting that comes out 30 days after month end. And so you just can never have that level of uh, transparency to be able to verify things in anything close to real time. Um, and so then you, you, you receive the statement and oh, nav has gone down. Uh, and so then you have to pass that back to your customers and it's always on this historical basis. Um, and so that's the separation that the crypto and blockchain can provide, um, and that real time transparency that can be displayed to their customers, uh, and to have that peace of mind, um, that they can have that level of disclosure.

Speaker A: Uh, no, that absolutely makes sense. I mean having spent some time in uh, the debt warehouse space where everything is running on a calendar month cycle with you know, somebody pulling and putting together a manual loan tape, shipping it off to your service or your debt facility. Still very uh, batch based, uh, latency opportunities for, you know, miscommunication or lack of transparency. Um, there's been quite a bit of news in again specifically like the stablecoin space, but in my mind that's now sort of like becoming the crossroads between Tradfi and crypto world. Um, I'm specifically thinking of the launch of the Open Standard or the open USD consortium, uh, which uh, is boasting a dizzying array, uh, of members including huge names from Tradfi, Fintech and crypto. Uh, having been in the space since 2019 and having seen plenty of big consortiums get announced and then maybe not necessarily deliver on what, what they're promising. When you see these kinds of splashy announcements, like what do you make of it and does it impact what you're working on or how you think about the roadmap for yourself at Maple?

Speaker B: Yeah, so we're definitely stablecoin agnostic. So we support usdc, USDT and more recently usdg And USDG is probably the most similar to the recently announced ousd, uh, where it is a consortium of uh, of, of different brands and companies coming together to, to back and support it. Um, so we, we see the potential, especially with Stripe being involved uh, so heavily in OUSD and the potential of the launch uh, of their chain Tempo. And so the incorporation of a stable coin with a blockchain is the kind of default fintech play that is going on here. So for, for Robinhood they have Robinhood chain and then they've, their stablecoin of choice is usdg. I think you're going to see this playbook across a number of fintechs where they launch their own ah, L2 blockchain or, or, or L1 alt one network. Uh, and so they're able to own the customer a little bit more directly by having the blockchain experience that they want and then they're able to have their stablecoin of choice that operates on those rails. And so the big opportunity that I think I see with OUSD is given the breadth of the names that are included in there. You can see that all jurisdictions around the globe are covered. Um, and if that they're truly able to link up all of those financial institutions, the level of distribution that they're going to be able to get globally is going to be pretty incredible. And so I think that that is going to be the real difference between any other uh, consortium announcement I've seen previously is the number of names that are on there. And if there's true commitment from each of them then you can see real adoption happening here. And then when all of these guys are interacting on the same network with the same asset, you can see the power that that's going to create for end customers.

Speaker A: Well, we'll have to check in uh, a year or so and see how far they've got with that consortium. Something that I've seen uh, Maple discuss uh, in the past is the distinction between yield that is derived from real credit as opposed to marketing subsidies or just mispriced risk. Can you explain a little bit what you mean when you say that and what you need to look at to understand if the yield that a particular instrument or investment is offering is durable and safe, or if it is coming from subsidies, mispriced risk, etc. Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. So across the decentralized finance space, especially historically, you will see that there's a lot of marketing campaigns around the yield that's being offered. And often this is uh, platforms looking to attract capital in short term increments and then they're either using uh, their own balance sheet or their own token in order to incentivize that capital coming in. And so very often we see these big incentive campaigns where they put out splashy numbers of high yield, but uh, really there's no productive economic use that that capital is being put to. And so often it'll just sit there and then they'll be paying out token rewards and trying to claim that ah, they have been able to source a significant amount of capital. And so this is just not sustainable. And so Maple, from the very beginning has always been very uh, focused on how we, ensuring that capital is flowing to a productive use that is going to generate real yield for customers. And so that's why I think we've been able to be so much more sustainable than many other defi applications is that we have identified a niche within the crypto landscape where we can provide capital uh, directly into a real productive use case. And we've seen as more institutions come into this space that pie grow. And so we've been able to continue to grow with the institutional adoption of crypto because of the amount of capital demand that continues to increase.

Speaker A: So, and I realize we've already talked about this to some extent, but some of the criticism I hear of crypto, broadly speaking, uh, is that it is or some, the argument is that it is finance or financialization without a real economic purpose. Right. So I think the example that uh, I'm thinking of specifically is you can uh, justifiably be a critic of sort of 2008 housing crisis and all of these crazy CDO, synthetic, CDO squared, um, understandably why people would want to criticize some of those structures given, given what happened. But at the end of the day like those were tied at least conceptually to a underlying activity in the real economy. You know, the financing of the purchase of a house. Uh, do you see parallels in sort of the crypto stablecoin ecosystem that we're talking about when critics say hey, there's all this financialization, but what is the actual activity in the real economy that is tied to this? Do you put any stock in that argument or do you have a counter argument to that?

Speaker B: So I think it is a, a uh, real and um, and ah, and an obvious argument that people can make. And it is, goes back to my point before about crypto previously really uh, existing on this isolated island and where it was just capital flowing within its own little ecosystem and it wasn't getting out into the real world economy or going to productive use cases at all. And so there's a lot of talk more recently around tokenization of assets, um, and how this is going to be the bridge for real world assets coming on chain and then enabling, uh, a much broader financial landscape to be built on chain. And so I think that that is true and it needs to be done in a certain way, uh, because there's a lot of talk of, oh, if I tokenize my asset, then it's going to become more liquid and more accessible and it's going to do all of these great things that isn't necessarily true. Any liquid asset is an illiquid because it's not on chain. It's illiquid because of the inherent nature of that asset and the amount of demand for that asset. And so what we need to think about is how are we structuring bringing these assets on chain and not just ensuring that we're kind of wrapping them in some obscure legal structure and then putting a token on it and then bringing it on chain. What we want to be doing is direct issuance on chain. And that is one of the distinguishing features of Maple is that our loans are directly issued on chain. And so the capital comes in and the capital flows out to the borrower, uh, directly through a smart contract loan that is issued, which is then also replicated in a master lending agreement. And so the legal structure is directly matched to the on chain structure that exists. And so we need to be able to replicate that type of direct issuance on chain to then enable these real productive use cases and for more and more non crypto native capital to start to flow on chain and come into

Speaker A: these assets that uh, that makes a little more sense. I mean the, the idea of sort of doing something on, on chain, uh, purely for the sake of being able to say you're doing something on chain where it's just point other legal construct or some other document or asset that exists off chain, um, versus what I understand you to be describing, which is actually doing this issuance directly on the blockchain itself. Um, you've been very generous with your time. I do want to squeeze in, uh, one more question. I am legally obligated to ask about AI Uh, financial infrastructure and markets are continuing to evolve at an incredibly rapid pace. I mean, I've been in the broader financial services industry for somehow almost 20 years now. And it feels like things continue to move more quickly than ever. Uh, but the topics we've been discussing, but also how those intersect with uh, AI and now some of the agentic tools and platforms, uh, that are becoming increasingly popular. Can you just uh, provide your context on how you see what we've been discussing and what you're building at Maple, intersecting with some of these new AI powered or agentic powered tools and platforms? Is that something you spend time time thinking and talking to people about? Does it influence what you're building and how you think about the space?

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. So, you know, beyond obviously all the efficiencies it brings to your operations and your internal workings within, uh, within the Maple team, uh, what we're, what we're looking at and starting to incorporate is how we're introducing AI into monitoring and managing risk. Um, and so this is one of the big uh, benefits to crypto and blockchain technology is that all of this real time data is available. And so when you combine that availability of data with AI, then there's a real powerful unlock. And so the thing that we're starting to incorporate and we've already done to a certain extent is the AI monitoring of markets. And so we're able to perform liquidation scenarios in certain market events, uh, around the crypto assets that are backing the loans. And so we can start to predict in this market condition this is going to be the likelihood of a margin call, this is going to be the likelihood of a liquidation. And so AI is able to start to simulate these, uh, these market conditions for us. What this sets us up for longer term is that what we call Maple HQ internally, which is our risk monitoring platform, is that that will start to become more agentically run. And so you will have Maple, uh, setting the framework and risk guidelines that outline things and then agents will be implementing and running those things in real time. And so there is this real powerful unlock that happens when you combine the autonomous nature of, of AI with the real time availability of blockchain. And that uh, powerful unlock will enable risk management to go to a level that we've never been able to see before. Because instead of relying on humans clicking buttons and trying to monitor things, you get an agent that's monitoring things in real time with a system that can respond in real time.

Speaker A: Uh, less, less batch based and uh, looking at things in Excel manually.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly, exactly.

Speaker A: Listen, I am afraid that is all the time we have for today. But Joe, for folks that want to learn more or keep up with the latest at Maple, where can they find you?

Speaker B: Yes, so you can go to the website, Maple Finance, um, and then you can also follow us on X, uh, Maple Finance, I will drop links to

Speaker A: both of those in the show notes. Joe, uh, thank you so much for taking the time until, uh, next time.

Speaker B: Thanks, Jason. Appreciate it.