Building tech-savvy marketing leadership with Rick Egan

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hey everybody, uh, this is my Fuentes, your host for another episode of Executive Conversations. In this podcast, I talk to go to market leaders about the behind the scenes of marketing. Not the strategy, not the tactics. But how do you actually deal with the people to get things done? The people and the data, of course. Today I'm really excited to speak to uh, Rick Egan, who is the CMO@Beyond.inc. how is it going, Rick?

Speaker A: It's, it's going, it's going. I think, you know, this is a challenging year for sure. Um, a lot of, lot of uncertainty and I think you, you feel that a lot on the day to day of everything that we have to deal with.

Speaker B: It has been a very intense year. And I'm really curious. I was just telling you before we started recording that, um, you have a very interesting profile right now. You're at a public company. I've also never had anybody who is currently at a public company on the podcast, if I'm not wrong. And so your perspectives there as well is really interesting. But aside from that, you've also just had quite a diverse background in a lot of different industries. You said it yourself, you're a, you've been in D2C, B2B, lead gen, all of the things with a starting background in SEO. So quite the um, perspective to see how things have developed up until this year. What are you seeing

Speaker A: as it pertains to this year or just uh, like

Speaker B: this year, but also just the changes that have been occurring in the last five up until now.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point to look at the last five. Um, because you really, I think a lot of the last, you know, you know, if you go back five years, you were just at the beginning of COVID and ah, everything I think, you know, and everything at that time I think followed a similar playbook. Um, you know, as, as it pertained to anything digital, anything on the digital side. Because digital was still, you know, typically, probably for most, most industries was like less than 20% of sales and you know, and it was easier to follow kind of the same playbook. And then Covid happened. Digital explod, you know, became a much bigger percent of total enterprise sales. Um, and then even direct consumer product, direct consumer brands became much larger than they, you know, than they were kind of pre Covid. So you know, so many buying habits kind of shifted that way. But then you also really had, because of a lot of economic things that ended up happening, you also, everybody kind of overbought too. Um, so you kind of had that component as well. And so I think over as we kind of came out of that, everybody, you know, kind of was searching for the bottom, so to speak, of where do they hit that point and then, you know, how do they get back to normal? And in a lot of ways, I think we're. We maybe are just kind of hitting the point where we might actually be getting back to normal or at least where we come out on the other side of this, we'll be back to normal.

Speaker B: Really? In what sense do you mean?

Speaker A: Um, just because what you ended up with was consumers because they were stuck in their homes, um, but they were also flush with cash at the same time. So many. They just really bought lots and lots of things all over the place. And, and then it's, you know, and then even over the last few years, you kind of slowly had this, okay, we're going back to the office. You know, some people are not. But, you know, it's kind of normalizing back down to now where, um, you know, I think 10% are remote, 90% are back in office at some level. You know, whether that's a few days a week or, you know, you know, in some cases even up to five days a week. So, you know, so you're starting to get back to that normal period before where, you know, you just have all your normal things in life that you had kind of pre Covid. So pre 2020. And so. But we're still going through some of the, you know, people. People aren't, you know, certain groups are not buying as much as they. As they did pre Covid. So that's kind of impacting what retailers have to do. Um, because especially anybody that's publicly traded, um, like a beyond, you have to. You still have shareholders looking for certain signals and they want that information. So you constantly are trying to kind of ignore maybe what the. What the true economic cycle is, um, to deliver something that the street would. Would be happy with. So

Speaker B: tell me more about ignoring the current economic cycle to deliver. You mean like showing data in a way or what. I'm not sure I grasp.

Speaker A: Well, I think so if, if consumers are, you know, by nature spending less, let's say, or, you know, or if you just say like, you know, who's in market for something? You know, who's in my market for a desk, you know, that, that uh, a lot of people already bought their desk. And like in a normal times, let's say 5, you know, 5% of the potential, you know, potential in market shopper would be Interested in buying a desk. So in Covid, maybe that shot up to eight. So you could sell that many more. Well then naturally, if it's always going to be five, if that's your average, then the reality is you only have 2 or 3% that would actually be in market for that product now. And so that's why I say, like, ignoring it. So it becomes a smaller pool of people essentially that are in market that everybody's fighting for, because then everybody is getting pressure and saying, you know, we really like the sales volume during the peak of COVID How do we get back there instead of saying, oh, well, we just had a, an abnormal spike, um, for a one to two year period. So now if we, if we look at our. Look at, you know, and this is true of any business, if you look at your business over a three to five year span, you know, your kind of average sales are going to look like one. Average sales per year are going to look like one thing with probably, you know, some amount of growth. So, you know, that was kind of the outcome of COVID for many digital companies is they had a peak, which. And then that was followed by a down period which, you know, for somebody like myself who's been in digital for, you know, 20 years, you know, you never saw that every year grew 30%, you know, 20, 30% no matter what. No matter what you did. Um, because that was just really, you know, new customer adoption of moving, you know, offline to online. And so you were always going to have that. So post Covid, you actually had the opposite. Where then people went, okay, I'm going to go back to the store. And so your customer pool shrank, um, because those people went back away from online. But then also everybody had overbought at the same time. And then you also all the, you know, kind of all the manufacturers and everything manufactured for the peak period kind of coming out of it. So you have excess inventory. So you have too many things in warehouses and not enough, uh, and not enough customers. So.

Speaker B: So that's what you think. It's normalizing now because now the items in the inventory are normalizing and we're getting used to the.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's starting to normalize. Although the tariffs like threw everything. Yeah, uh, that kind of threw everything kind of through for a loop because then everybody just went and went, I want to avoid the tariffs. So let me like, you know, go buy a huge amount of inventory again. And so now they're kind of stuck with, you know, people are, you know, people are buying People are not buying, but now they have too much inventory again. So that's where they have to get back to like where that, you know, kind of equilibrium is, because then you can have normal prices again and then you can have better margins, which then you allow, allows you to make more investments into, you know, into various things.

Speaker B: How is this affecting you as a market?

Speaker A: It's just a continual balance. Like you, you see the, I think as a marketer you see the impact of it from the uh, you know, the, the need to discount or, you know, the need or push to do discounts to, um, incentivize sales. So you see it in that and then you see it in probably, I would say for me, you see it in conversion rates. You see, um, conversion rates aren't necessarily the same because that, that to me is always a clear sign of demand. Um, when the demand's higher, you're going to have a conversion rate that you would more expect. And when the demand's naturally lower, it's going to go down. So then your response, so to speak, to that lower demand and lower conversion rate is I basically have to lower prices to try to further incentivize somebody to purchase.

Speaker B: Wait, so the inventory that's been overbought, I understood it as beyond has bought a lot of inventory, um, because beyond is direct consumer.

Speaker A: Well, so we, yeah, well, but we're, we're, we're more of a marketplace. So for us we're, you know, we're, we're basically other people are, we're a marketplace, so we're selling on behalf of other people. So it's those people that are selling on site that have too much inventory.

Speaker B: Okay. And so you are, you have, that has affected your conversion rates because of the side that is selling, because of the seller side.

Speaker A: Now when I just say the conversion rate, it's just, you uh, know, it's just naturally you're just going to put a product up and you know, if demand is higher, you know, let's say you're in a period of high demand, um, you know, like the holidays, you know, everybody's just going to buy. You know, people are shopping. You're going to have much higher conversion rates naturally during, during peak demand times. So when demand is lower, um, you know, your conversion rates naturally going to be lower because effectively the people that are buying are buying more based on need than want. So and if there's fewer people, you know, that have a need, then they're, you know, then, then you're just naturally going to have lower Conversions.

Speaker B: So when you're having these conversations at an executive level, then where demand is lower, that's an obvious thing. But I imagine your expectations, like what you're supposed to deliver have not dropped. Or maybe they have, I don't know. But like, what's the conversations that you're having there?

Speaker A: Oh, uh, no, nobody wants to listen to that one. That's just considered an excuse. So, yeah, that, that, that's, that's where then, then you have to, you're, you're pushing more of the narratives of, you know, uh, of okay, what, what, what's promos can we run and what discounts? And you know, you're probably having pricing conversations and things like that because, yeah, nobody really ever wants to hear you say, say, oh, there's just less demand right now. Um, people know it. And, and you do. And you know, it's, you will talk about it and say, oh, you know, demand isn't as high right now. But then that just leads to, well, we still need to make the sales we need to make. So. Because, and that's true whether you're publicly traded or not publicly traded, because everybody's basically doing a budget and you know, and then they're higher. You know, they're, they're, they're, they're staffing and planning around what their expected sales are going to be. So if you're not making your sales numbers, then, you know, then you, you, then you, you invariably then have to do things that you don't want to do, which is typically, you know, cut people, cut vendors, um, other things to reduce cost.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's, um, how. It's very intense time. Specifically right now in 2025, you're the first person actually that I've had on bringing up tariffs, which makes sense because of the industry that you're in. I've spoken to a lot of SaaS people, which I don't think are very affected by it at the moment. At least the conversation that I've been having, it hasn't brought up. So I'm interested in hearing. Yeah. Your how 2025 overall has been for you.

Speaker A: Well, I think that the SaaS, the SaaS people, depending what they're in, it will affect them. You, um, know, because. Depending what space you're in, especially. But if you're a SaaS provider to. And it, you know, into retail, um, you know, the tariffs are for sure going to affect you and you know, and a lot of things will because it's just, it's naturally going to, you know, tariffs, tariffs are basically, I mean it's basically increasing cost of, you know, kind of a product. So it's just a, ah, it's an inflationary pressure that's going to, you know, kind of flow down to everybody. It's just who does it hit first? So if you're a. So retail is probably where it's typically going to hit people first. Um, because if you, if you have to, if you're buying a product that's being imported, then you know, then there's additional cost being just added to it through effectively a tax, um, which increases the cost of the product. And so then you either have to, you're going to pass, you know, some or all of that cost onto the consumer, which then means all products cost more, which is basically inflationary. And so then if consumers have, if consumers to purchase the same thing, have less money, then that's eventually has to flow back to employers ultimately have to pay more because it costs more to. Your cost of living, goes up, you have less disposable income to, you know, to go out and use on services or things like that. So, so it will have, it will have it, it will have a ripple effect through that ultimately hits, you know, everybody. It's just, you know, how and when. Who's at the tip of spear and who's, who's at the back of the line now.

Speaker B: Okay, I want to look at your career, um, and specifically, not specifically your career, but you just have like an ah, interesting background and I want to look at uh, how you think the role of market changed over the years. Although you have, I mean obviously your role has changed as well. Your job title has changed. But in general, do you think that marketers are asked to or expected to be doing something different now in general marketing as a concept?

Speaker A: I think so. I mean, I don't know, just over, you know, kind of over my career. I think one of the big things that's changed for marketers, um, is the role technology plays in marketing. I um, think, you know, the, the basic, you know, the basic concept of marketing of you know, identifying, you know, kind of, you know, what's, what's the value of the product or service that you're selling? You know, how do you position yourself in the market? You know, what is your, you know, what is your product fit and you know, who, who's that, who's the customer ultimately of that product fit and you know, all those things are more or less the same. Your. But I think the big thing that's, you know, has changed and will you know, is going to change even more is the technology side. Um, because marketers, marketers had you know, kind of, I think a lot of when I think like earlier in my career you still really, while technology played a part in marketing, it was still probably, it wasn't as easy to use or easy to operate by the marketers. Um, so you know, so there were things that you know, so I think like email programs, you know, when I think back like 15 years ago, a lot of times like the email operators tended to have like real tech backgrounds because you really needed to understand you had to do a lot of the technology, you know, through coding and things like that. Um, now it's much more simplified. So you know, a non technical person or somebody with low technical skills, um, you know, can, can operate all these things and then marketing, you know to be able to deliver things at scale has to use technology. So you're, as a marketing leader, I think it's become more and more important that you have to, you not have to be a marketer but you in some ways have to be a technologist at the same time. Um, which is, you know, which is different from you know, 20 years ago where probably if you were a, if you were a great brand creative strategist, um, with no technology, with, without much technology or you know, even much kind of, you know, financial acumen on the uh, you know, kind of performance marketing side you can easily lead marketing and run with the whole thing and stuff like that. And that's one thing that's changed a lot that you know that, that a lot of the marketing leaders come more from performance and you know, kind of technology backgrounds because I think that's become so much more important um m Than it used to be. Um, so that, that you know, that's such a big part of it and then that's I think going to be you know, with AI that will be even more important. So because AI is just really, that's going to, that'll be kind of the next wave over the next three to five years will be the uh, you know, AI workflows and AI automations and things like that will you know, where it used to take 10 people to do do something, it's going to take two or three. So and then the people who can master using the technology or that type of technology will be the ones that you know, kind of flourish within that. Uh, and the ones that, that fight it or don't want to do it will be the ones that get left behind.

Speaker B: You mentioned earlier in our Chat. And I can't remember if we were recording or not, but you come from a background in SEO, and you're saying as you become more of an executive, your role is you'll always be deep in one skill and then, uh, more of a generalist and all the other ones, and you hire the people who are experts in space. And so when it comes to this topic of the marketers having to become more technically proficient, more financially proficient, and know all of these things, do you find that the, like, today's marketing leader, they need to also build those skills or they need to hire people who have those skills? Do you get the question?

Speaker A: I think so. Um, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, it probably just depends on the person. You know, I mean, the, the best leaders probably understand what they're not good at, and they hire good people at the things that they know they're not good at, and then they let them. They let those people, they. They give those people the autonomy and freedom to kind of own the areas that they're experts in and get out of their way. So, so I think that's, you know, like, all good leaders really are good at that. The, the micromanagers struggle a bit more, I think, a lot of times, because they have, they. I mean, they can have a lot of success, too, but, you know, but then people have a harder time working for them, and, you know, ultimately is you need to innovate. Probably the micromanager, it's hard for them to be really good at everything. Um, and if they can't let go of that control, then eventually that's probably going to be a negative for them at some point.

Speaker B: Right. So you're saying those ones would say, I have to be able to learn this skill myself?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you have to be able to learn this skill yourself. Whereas really, what you probably really need to do. So, you know, I think AI would be a great example of that. I think really what you have to, you know, be able to do as a leader is not necessarily say, you know, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go be the example and I'm gonna go figure out how to do all this stuff. You know, you have to say, you know, this is important, and I have to find ways to encourage. Encourage people on the team to, um, go out and use it and start doing things, and then, you know, kind of start to build the reward systems around those types of, you know, the people that are excelling at those types of things. So that, uh, you know, and Then that will increase the adoption and other people will, will and will. It will start to do it. And then those that are really, you know, unwilling, um, become the people that you probably start to manage out.

Speaker B: Yeah. Do you, do you kind of expect the team members just say, hey, I'd like you to figure this out? And they kind of figure it out and learn on their own, or are you providing?

Speaker A: Oh, no, I find, I totally find that this is some like, AI especially because I think most people are afraid of it. Um, you know, because they, you know, it's, it's like, it's like a factory job that, you know, there used to be an assembly line and somebody, you know, screwed a certain bolt on and, you know, they, they had a job for life and a nice pension and all good. And so now you're telling somebody to, you know, that writes content for a living, to start using, you know, AI to, or start using ChatGPT to, you know, create content, because they can. Because you know that, that they can create more content at scale, at doing that. And it's not that that person is no longer valuable, it's just that that copy or that editor, uh, that copywriter, you know, could only do so much work on their own. And you know, and their ideas, and you know that their ideas over time probably start to become a lot of the same thing because, you know, because they're only, they only have their experience and once you're doing one thing, you're going to tend to do the same thing or similar thing over and over again. So, yeah, so using ChatGPT, you can probably, you can create content at much greater scale, which has advantages. And then you also have the advantage of, you can be a lot more creative because you can just start with the, um, the seed ideas and build from there and continue to learn as opposed to. If you have to start everything from scratch, you have to, you have to ideate, you have to research, you have to do so much work just to be able to produce one thing.

Speaker B: How are you finding the bat? Like, is your team excited about it?

Speaker A: Um, no, I still continue to find resistance. I think people are warming to it, but there's still a lot of resistance, um, getting people. Because it's, like I said, it's, it's, you know, people, people fear the unknown and then they fear that, you know, maybe in that, in that earlier piece, if you had the microman, you know, if you had the super micromanager who had to do, you know, do everything first, then you might go, oh, eventually you know, my, this team of 20, you know, is only going to be a team of one because that person's going to find out that they can just, you know, through prompts do everybody's job which, which is untrue, you know, but that would, I think sometimes it feels like that's the fear that people have so they tend to try to hold, want to hold on to what they're doing today.

Speaker B: M this is like a good place to wrap it up. Rick, it has been a really great conversation. I really appreciate all of your insights that you shared with me.

Speaker A: I appreciate you having me on.

Speaker B: Of course. And um, for those who listened, please do reach out to Rick on LinkedIn. Say hello, give us a like um, and let us know if you've watched this episode until the end. It would mean a lot and thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.