Kathryn Bennett - Paid to Audit a Marketing Degree

Speaker A: M Marketing. Is it an art? Is it a science? Actually, it's a little bit of both. Elite Marketing Tips is the podcast to hear from people all over the world about the strange and sometimes dark art of marketing. But it doesn't have to be dark, confusing, or strange. There's an art to crafting a message that converts. And there's a science behind why people make a buying decision. Guests like the one coming up have a really cool thing to share with you. After the show, head to the show Notes for ways to get in contact with our guest to find out more and probably some other helpful tidbits of info. Let's jump into the show now. You came, you came to the right place. If you wanted to talk about marketing. Just boom, rock and roll marketing.

Speaker B: I'm ready for it.

Speaker A: Tell me everything you know. You got 29 minutes. Ready, set, go.

Speaker B: It can probably be contained in about the first five minutes. I know I don't use rocket science here. It's not rocket surgery. Yeah,

Speaker A: yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker B: You want to know how I got my marketing knowledge? I'm going to put this out to the entire world. This is an audacious. Okay, um, When I was in graduate school, I used to help folks, um, write papers. Like I was po, um, or, you know, I didn't have very much money. I was in grad school and a lot of these rich undergraduate students needed someone to write their papers for them. So I took on a marketing student who I pretty much did all of his undergraduate classes for him as a graduate student. And so I actually gained proficiency in marketing because I got free textbooks, I got free case studies. Um, I spent, so I spent my days doing my classwork, then I spent my nights doing this guy's classwork and I came out with no, no paper. Like, he's got the paper. But I've got the marketing credentials. So like the degree or the, you know, I've got the knowledge, just not the credentials.

Speaker A: So this is great. So the title for this episode is Paid to audit a Marketing Class. So basically this class, this was like

Speaker B: a four year program and I did his last two years.

Speaker A: So paid to art. Uh, paid to audit a marketing degree. So you basically. This guy paid you guy was a guy, you said yes, he paid you to essentially take his class for him. Interesting. Isn't capitalism awesome?

Speaker B: What's illegal in the state of Texas? But, um, number one, statute of limitations are over. And number two, uh, it's only a $250 misdemeanor fine. So if the State of Texas decides to come after me for that. But, I mean, that's how I got my marketing knowledge. Yeah. Which is the. So I'll tell people all the time, oh, it's health. Public health is an awful lot like health marketing. But really what I did was I did someone else's classes for them for two years and gained proficiency in the topic so I could speak about it intelligently.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. No, it's freaking hilarious. I'm not sitting here, like, I'm like, oh, my goodness. Like. And I. And I've got this lady in my inner circle, like, I need a screen. No, it's freaking hilarious. Seriously. Because it's like everybody else is like, well, I got my start. I just, uh, you know, I. I did social media, and I did this and this and that, and it's like I stole my way into it. I just busted in there. I wasn't kicked in the back door. Now I'm here, you know, I love it.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, I had the excuse. I had the excuse to learn. Listen, I'm insatiably curious, like, to the point where it's probably a detriment to my personal life.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and this particular activity that I undertook to, you know, write folks, uh, academic papers satisfied a ton of curiosity for me. I had an excuse to learn everything I wanted, and people paid me to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, still. It's still freaking cool, that. Do you think that writing papers, like, plays into. Because I know you write proposals, so did that play into that, too? Like, did you damage yourself that way as well? And you're like, well, I love writing papers, proposals, you know, Am I right on? I'm spot on, aren't I?

Speaker B: They're probably the same. Yes, yes. Because here's the. I love. Like, I would write academic papers for free. I'm not even kidding. They're so much fun because you get the opportunity to hear all kinds of different people's perspectives. You get the opportunity to consolidate it into a coherent argument. And you're trying to sell somebody. Right. Like, you're trying to sell somebody on your perspective or on your argument, which is extremely similar to proposals, creation, proposal management. And there's a lot of project management that goes into a rigorous academic research paper, too. Right. Like, you've got to find the right sources. You've got to speak to the right experts on some occasions. So, yeah, the research. The research and, uh, project planning of writing academic papers, I guess it does naturally lend itself to proposals.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker B: Pretty wild.

Speaker A: It is wild. Well, it's cool how things just sort of. They're not, they're not too far away. And it's like, you would think two wildly different areas are like, how would you get from point A to point B? But there's all these little micro steps in between, uh, when you can actually walk, you know, but, uh, stepping from one point to another and it's like, oh, that's not too far off from what I'm currently doing. Hey.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: And then there's a career change. I love it.

Speaker B: Well, folks don't end up in proposals because they intend to. Most of us have a skill that lends itself towards this. Somebody else identifies that skill in us or that aptitude, and then we kind of get thrust into these proposal management roles, um, which is in a lot of marketers. So the reason I want to come on here and talk about marketing is because a lot of folks in marketing come into proposals and it's not what they expect. A lot of people in sales, a lot of folks from who studied English or technical writing. So we have this confluence of multiple disciplines and proposals. And it's really funny because nobody across industries really knows how to fully categorize us. Many people will say it's a marketing function. Equal number of folks will say it's a sales function. Equal number of folks will say it's a partnership function. So really it's, it's a very provocative question of where do proposals even live, who should manage them, and how do you decide what goes into the documents?

Speaker A: Yeah, because you want to. You don't want to overly talk about stuff, but you want to, like, get to the point and hurry up and convince them that, yeah, we're the right people for the job. I mean, you and I know that we're the right people for the job, but it's just we got to convince them to do it in the shortest amount of words.

Speaker B: There's three components to a winning proposal. Again, this isn't rocket science, so it may not. This isn't going to take all 29 minutes to describe the three ways to win a proposal. First, the most important thing is that you have to comply. You have to comply with due dates, you have to comply with forms, you have to comply with, uh, you know, whatever the requirements of the RFP are going to be. So that's a procedural aspect, right? Like, it's not something you really spend a lot of time strategizing on. Maybe ask, uh, questions by a certain deadline, whatever. Um, second is price. Most of us who write the proposals well, many of us who write the proposals have hardly any control over price. So you're relying on your strong product marketing research, you're relying on other folks in the sales groups. Like, pricing is very much, um, a collaborative effort. But third, and the part where proposal managers really have the opportunity to shine is, um, does your solution meet the customer's needs? And if you don't understand the customer's needs, you cannot speak to that. So what proposal managers really have to do was work together with our sales teams, build out strong processes for gathering information on the front end. So we often look at proposals as being like, well, we've, you know, it's time for us to do a proposal now. We'll start the effort. But that's the time when the proposals hit the ground is already, it's usually too late. To make a lasting impact. You need to have a capture plan, a strategic approach, and that will guide you towards the answers that will, that will lead to the win. Um, really just being able to solve the customer's problems, not just in a generic boilerplate way, because people can smell that, but in a genuine, authentic and thoughtful way. That's how proposal managers can best contribute to revenue at their company.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, as far as the boilerplate thing is concerned, I mean there's, there's value in that because you want to get the chunks in there as quickly as possible. You don't have to like hand craft like I'm m going to hand sculpt this dugout canoe every single time. It's like just boom, get it done. Right. But you still want to put like the humanness in there, but in a systematic way. So there's balance. And I'm saying this on the outside is like not a, I'm not a proposal manager like you are, but I get it.

Speaker B: Yeah, you use the 80, 20 rule. Like 80% of what you have is going to be boilerplate because sure, when you implement your software, when you um, build a new school, when you design, you know, a new system, a new sewer system, most of the steps are going to be the same, but you need to call out why the customer is different in that remaining 20%. And so I work at a, I work at an automation firm, proposal automation company, um, where we support, um, you know, ongoing process improvement for our customers. And a big part of that is saying like, let's reuse as much as we can from previous proposals. But you also have to really think how you're going to customize it for your, you know, for the Betterment of. For the betterment of the customer that you're trying to approach.

Speaker A: Yeah. Now, are there certain spots that you're like, okay to do? Fill this in with some stuff. Like, is the customization in the same place every single time, or do you have to, like, figure out how to weave it into the. To the prefabricated parts? Like, walk me through that.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So. So Lupio and other, um, other proposal management softwares are, um, like, uh, there are different approaches that you can take. You can template things out, you can use a library search. So Lupio relies heavily on the ability to search previously used content or standard content. So there is an opportunity to build out templates. But the real power lies in being able to access every piece of information that you have previously used in a proposal, cross reference it by keyword and topic, and store it reliably, and then be able to pull that back out when you really need it. Um, so it's customization on top of customization, which is very powerful for proposal winners.

Speaker A: Nice. I like that. I'm all about customization, but I'm also all about efficiency and, like, I got stuff to do and I don't want to spend like two weeks trying to cobble something together. So. Very cool. Very cool. So on marketing, just overall, in the, the little bit that you've learned by stealing your way into your degree, now, do you have like, did you write a degree? Did you make a degree for yourself in crayon? Be like, I earned this, I did the work. I want to stick this on my wall. And then did you write it in crayon or something?

Speaker B: I mean, I can see it going beautifully. Next to the other two, I'm looking at the framed ones I have right now. I feel like maybe I could make something work.

Speaker A: You totally could. You totally could just download it off of Google, I'm sure. Or maybe unsplash. Maybe there's something on there. Um, but as far as marketing in general goes, um, you know, broader. Like, not proposal writing specifically, but just marketing as a whole. Like, since you got into it, you know, what ways has marketing changed? Have there been like, some huge trends that are like, whoa, never would have seen that coming in a million years. Like, how has it changed over the years?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think really the customers that I've seen, so usually I serve the government right. As part of my proposal and marketing, um, efforts. And I think the buyers in these fields have become so much more sophisticated than we often give them credit for. So there are a lot of folks in these kind of legacy type industries, legal, um, construction, architecture and engineering. Right. Like all of these kind of, um, established industries that assume that the rules of engagement are still the same as they were 20 years ago. But I love how I see how governments are using more sophisticated buying approaches. And it's only those folks who keep up with those approaches and understand the procurement mechanisms that will really shine on marketing and selling through proposals. So for instance, uh, government agencies are teaming up a lot more often right now to buy together. And that's evidenced by um, a lot of bid portal analysis and you know, folks that are helping support the buyers on a lot of these projects. We're just seeing a lot more teamwork. Well, what does it mean when two different organizations are buying together? And how do we think about marketing effectively to these kind of informal co ops of government groups? That's an entirely different approach than what you would use if you're, if you're seeing a single buyer, you know, from, from 20 years ago. So increased buyer sophistication in my domain is definitely something that I have to be more aware of.

Speaker A: Okay, well I like that and I like hearing that the government sector in particular is uh, uh, doing things to kind of get out of this old and busted idea. You know, there's, there's a lot of stuff that I know. There's like layers and layers of abstraction that are meant to be protective. Right. And to an extent, yeah, it helps weed out the riff raff because I mean, they're busy, you know, and if people can't even meet that comply criteria for proposal, it's like, well that makes my job much easier. I don't have to think about it anymore. But by the same token, it's like there's quite a bit of the stuff that they do. It's like, guys, why are you doing this? Like we're in 2021. Like can we speed things along a little bit? So I'm glad that they're, I'm glad they're coming up with that stuff. Um, so, well, how long have you been in marketing? I mean, has it been for some reason? I think in my head it's like, oh, it's been 20 years, but has it been like two? Like, you're a fast mover. How long have you been in marketing?

Speaker B: Yeah, so my, um, my career started off, I was a chemist actually for my first career, um, get this, at um, places where we demilitarized chemical weapons. So we've neutralized VX nerve agent. And then I also worked at the US Olympic steroid testing lab in Salt Lake. Um, then I kind of got tired of that. I have a journalism undergrad as well, so journalism and chemistry. And I said, well, I guess I'll start with journalism and kind of think about that. So I got into proposal writing, headed off to grad school. The economy, uh, collapsed. Nobody wanted to hire anybody with a public health master's degree. And so, Heidi Ho. I just went back into marketing, um, and I've been doing some variation of technical writing or marketing ever since. So about 12 years of experience.

Speaker A: Okay. Solid, solid. So as far as marketing goes, like, is there. Is there something. And I need to change this question because I don't want people thinking regrets. Right. But what do you wish that someone told you about marketing 5 years ago other than get ready for the pandemic? M. You know, that's like a free bingo square.

Speaker B: Yeah, I wish that. So, a lot of the organizations where I've worked have not prioritized customer research. And I would say that, like, we do a lot to talk about how to respond, a lot of writing skills. Um, so there are two things I wish I would have learned more intensively five years ago. Number one is business acumen, and number two is customer research. Because I think a marketer that doesn't have a handle on, um, like, we make a lot of assumptions about what our customers want, and then when we're wrong, especially in, again, these legacy industries, um, you know, the cost of marketing through proposal is extraordinary. If you don't understand your customer, you're not going to be able to secure the win. Um, and also, I just wish that more marketers were trained. And this kind of goes for folks across all levels of an organization. We're trained in business acumen to understand more about the true return on investment of their efforts, understand what converts, conversion rates should look like, how to measure your funnel, how to think about how. How the revenue, your business unit is actually contributing to the company. Um, I think that. I think that general business acumen training would have made a huge difference to me in my career, and now I'm getting it. But, um, it is a little bit. It's a little bit late, so.

Speaker A: Yeah, nah, you're not late. You're right on time. You know, there's, well, there's aspects of that. I mean, like five years ago, actually three years ago, that's when I started kind of dipping my toes into those very areas. You know, like, before then it was just, well, I'm just going to throw things at the wall and See what sticks. Right. And it's like, that is not a scalable approach to doing any kind of business. I don't care if you're an employee, uh, a, uh, business owner, it doesn't matter. It's just, you got to be able to have measurable results. Well, I'd never been big on measuring things, and doing customer research is something that, yeah, I understand it in theory, but you know, in practice, I'm like, I'm in danger. Right. It's like, you know, when you stick your fingers on the keyboard, it's like, this makes total sense. You're away, you're getting coffee or protein shakes or whatever you drink on your break, and then you come back and it's like, I don't know how to use, uh, my hands. I don't know how to computer. Like that. That's what it's like for me. So as far as customer research goes, like, how do you do that? Like, do you, you're not stalking the people, but, like, how do you find out more about them? Like, what is it that you'd be looking for? What, what things should you pay attention to?

Speaker B: Sure. So they're, um, the best way to do great customer research. Again, I'm looking at the lens through proposals because that's been the primary, you know, function that I've served in the marketing departments that I've been in. Um, and win loss calls are a great way to get customer intelligence. That's of course not. Let's, not, let's not pretend that that' way to get customer research within a lot of these domains. I'm sure you can have somebody on who could talk about this for days. But the primary way in which I get good customer intelligence is through win loss calls. So if you win an opportunity, you call and you ask the same questions as you would ask if you lost an opportunity. Because you want to know why you won. You want to know what customers in certain fields are looking for. Because somebody who's building an aviation pavement is going to be dramatically different than someone who's building an elementary school. It's going to be dramatically different than someone who's buying software. Right. So understanding. So there's two. It's twofold win loss calls, and number two, you can analyze key themes in your RFPs. So if you're able to use software to capture the language that is being used in the RFPs, or review the questions that are being asked with some frequency. So like, hey, this question was asked 10 times in the last year. We know that we need to start thinking about shifting our product or our services to benefit the customers in this way. So I think it's really important to realize that RFPs are actually an incredible source of market intelligence. Like, they are a primary document, a primary source from the customer telling you what they value in what they're about to buy. And if you can analyze RFPS over the lifespan, even find ones that you're not applying for, but you can maybe harvest some in your same domain and see if your product is keeping up with the competition, it's a great way to start, uh, you know, directing your roadmap or directing your strategy.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, it sounds like even just taking a look at expired ones, you know, like, it's come and gone. There's a lot of, like, we. We just got our cage code recently, and so we're like, oh, boy, oh, boy, right? So we're like, what can we do for the government? And we're looking and we're like, uh, some of the stuff we're still trying to figure out, but like, oh, shoot, we just missed that. But that's not a wasted opportunity. It's like, look at what they're asking for and say, okay, well, in the future, like, how would we respond to that? And. And even them, I mean, I don't know if this is true of every government, uh, RFP portal, but they'll tell you, hey, we gave the award to this person, and it's like, oh, man, that's like seeing an ex girlfriend tweet about her new boyfriend or something. It's like, sucks, but it's like, that's a good. That's a good piece of information for later. So.

Speaker B: All right, it's just like in science, you know, folks, when they get. Experiment. When they have an experiment and they get a result that doesn't show anything, they lose, right? Like, it's. You consider it maybe a loss, but you gained, uh, you gained information still. So if you're in the early stages of starting to submit proposals, take a look at those losses and use the lessons learned. Because. And, uh, this goes for public and private sectors. Typically, folks will debrief in the private sector as well if you request it. If you call up and say, hey, will you tell me why I lost? 99% of them are more than happy to oblige because they want to get the best deal for their company. And if the next time the procurement cycle comes around, you're on the list again, and they know that you have put effort into getting better, then they'll consider your opinion a lot more. So you can't consider a loss to be a negative or something. You just stop and you move on? No. Lessons learned are extremely important in those cases.

Speaker A: Got it. Solid. Hey, side note, this is a total off the wall question, but is that a dog behind you? I can't tell. I only see, like, the top half of a head. Okay.

Speaker B: And if you hear snorting, it's her. It's not me falling asleep.

Speaker A: Well, I wondered. I'm like, what is that noise? Like, somebody's, like, running a garbage disposal or something in the background. Like, I'm not gonna edit. I'm not gonna. I could. I could hear it. You've got amazing headphones. That's okay. I don't. I'm not gonna edit it out. It's just. I'm like, wonder what that noise is. Is that me? Like, what's going on? My microphone I couldn't figure out. That's cool.

Speaker B: I need to put her in another room when I record podcasts, because I'm pretty sure it's a problem.

Speaker A: It's, uh, not for mine. I mean, you've been on multiple of my shows, and it's like, I'll just leave it in. I mean, as long as you don't have a cough and fit or something, like, blows up outside, I'm like, I'll just leave it in. It's life. Hey, you know, we live in a post pandemic world, right?

Speaker B: It's, uh.

Speaker A: We're gonna have to take some goofs and stuff. Is that a Scotty dog or.

Speaker B: Oh, I love Scotty dogs. No, she's a Staffordshire terrier pit bull.

Speaker A: Okay. I literally. I can only see, like, from the forehead up. I saw ears, and I'm like, there's an animal of some kind.

Speaker B: Yeah, she's a little. She's a little chonker.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I love her.

Speaker A: She's like, oh, Lord, she coming.

Speaker B: That's pretty much it.

Speaker A: I love it. I love it. Well, as we wrap up here, I think, you know, the last question that I have is, you know what's a really freaking awesome tip that you could share with other marketers? Like, if you had a room full of junior marketers that were like, oh, boy, I'm gonna learn something cool. And you're like, you know, like, what would you tell them to just set them on their path.

Speaker B: I tell them to gain technical proficiency on what they're trying to sell. So if you are selling software, which, uh, marketing is not sales. Right. But you're trying to Convince people to buy. Right, Right. If you don't understand your product thoroughly, you cannot effectively talk about it, so. Or your service. So take advantage of the opportunity to speak to subject matter experts at your company. Take the opportunity to maybe take a class, um, learn how to code. Basic stuff like learn how to do hello world. If you're selling software, understand what your product actually does. Dive into it so deeply before you attempt to sell it. Because I think customers can, they can smell disingenuous communications and if you, if you don't understand their needs and you don't understand how your product suits their needs and you're just reading from a talk track, you're not going to, or, uh, you know, writing from key bullet points, the authenticity isn't there. And that's not how you make the. Make the win through a proposal. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's almost like you gotta, you've almost got to hybridize anymore to be really effective at whatever it is you're doing. Like, your primary skill needs to be augmented with a few other things in the background. And I mean, I would have that same exact advice. It's like, don't just, don't just drill down as hard as you can in one area and be like, I'm just gonna focus on marketing. I'm only gonna do. It's like, no, you know, you, there's some other things that kind of come alongside. Like, psychology is a big one. Writing software is another one. And I mean, I would even say, like, in addition, like, if you're not selling software, it's good to be able to do that kind of thing because marketers that know how to code can solve some really unique problems that straight marketers can't. And then you get all these different marketers grouped together in a, uh, in a company, and it's like, holy gee whiz, this company's frigging awesome. Their marketing team is on point. What's their secret? Well, because we're not purebreds, that's why. So I love it. Very good. Well, it's always a pleasure talking with you. How would, how would people get a hold of you? Like, do you want them to come to Lupio? Do you want them to come to your Instagram and see you? Power lift stuff? Like, what's the best way for them to find out more about this sort of thing?

Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. So I'm happy, uh, to set appointments to chat with folks about marketing. The best way to get about that is on my LinkedIn. I, um, am. It's Catherine Bennett. Writes all one, all one phrase. Um, and I'm sure you can put that in the show notes like LinkedIn. Okay. Um, and if somebody, like, if you are interested in powerlifting, there's a whole other mental health, uh, webcast or podcast that we've done about that. Um, uh, you can follow me on Instagram @kblifts.k a y B E E Lifts. Like, I lift heavy things. Lifts. So those are two great ways to get ahold of me. And I'm happy to talk about marketing, powerlifting, strongman, mental health, and how to, um, you know, find the right customers.

Speaker A: Very cool. Nice. I like this. I like getting the chance to talk with you. It seems like when we get together, I'm like, all right. I feel centered, but I feel ready to rock and roll, like, raw, you know, lift 225 or something like that. I'm like, I totally do it. Yeah, I tried. I. So on the. On the lifting thing, so I think you know a little bit about what I do. I'm not, um. I'm by no means a power lifter. Like, the most I've ever deadlifted is 315, and that was really owie. My form sucks. I actually use a. I use a Smith rack to do my lifting. And I. You know, it's like, I don't have as much travel, but it saves my back a lot of wear and tear. I can go straight up and down. And the other day, somebody was using it for squatting, of all things, and I'm like, who does that? I do that. Um, but I'm like, well, I guess I just have to. I just have to do free weights. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, I cannot. I had trouble with 135, and I was ready to do like, 205 that day. And I'm like, what is going on with me?

Speaker B: Like, listen, can you catch yourself some slack? 135 is a lot. Most people walking into a gym aren't going to put 135 on there successfully. Get it done. Yeah, like, that's why you don't see them do it.

Speaker A: That's true. And I managed to do it. I was able to. I did it, but still I was like, but I have a chart on my wall that I like to cross the numbers off. I didn't get that dopamine hit, but I'm like, that's okay. I'll get up there. I'll make it. So good.

Speaker B: Good job. I love hearing about your lifting. It's great. Yeah, get. Get excited. I got a brand new bottle of ammonia downstairs. I'm going to do some. I'm going to do some, uh, shoulders and some bench press today.

Speaker A: Some upper body. Yeah. Because you can't. Upper body only broke your foot. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, that's okay. I am not going to judge you for skipping leg day for at least a couple months until this business, uh, heals up.

Speaker B: So the one leg is going to be really strong and the other one's not. And I'm just going to be walking in the circle for about. For about three months afterwards. Because one's good. One is like, I can only turn left. It's okay. Yeah, you're like.

Speaker A: You're like a NASCAR driver then. That's great. Awesome. Well, it's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure talking with you, my dear, and I hope that the rest of the week goes well for you. It's a good way to start a Monday, so.

Speaker B: I agree. Thanks so much. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Speaker A: All right, you too. Take care. Bye. Bye.

Speaker B: All right, cheers. Bye.

Speaker A: Hey, listener. Hopefully you learned something really cool in this episode. Marketing is a big, big area and can seem overwhelming, but hearing from experts like today's guest helps demystify it. If you learned something, consider telling your friends about the elite Marketing Tips podcast here on Anchor FM or anywhere you consume podcasts. We appreciate your listenership.