[REPLAY] Tinder, TripAdvisor, and more: Universal Product Lessons

1 00:00:02,080 - > 00:00:05,280 SPEAKER_00: In order to drive change in the organization, you 2 00:00:05,280 - > 00:00:06,639 need support from executives. 3 00:00:06,879 - > 00:00:10,320 And I think a lot of times product managers and product 4 00:00:10,320 - > 00:00:12,800 leaders make the mistake of thinking, you know, if I have a 5 00:00:12,800 - > 00:00:16,000 good idea and it's well substantiated and supported by 6 00:00:16,000 - > 00:00:21,280 data, then, you know, that's all that I need in order to convince 7 00:00:21,280 - > 00:00:25,760 a leader to go with what I think is the right direction moving 8 00:00:25,760 - > 00:00:26,079 forward. 9 00:00:26,320 - > 00:00:28,719 And I like to encourage people to think about this problem in 10 00:00:28,719 - > 00:00:29,839 terms of two dimensions. 11 00:00:30,000 - > 00:00:32,240 On one axis, you have alignment. 12 00:00:32,399 - > 00:00:36,240 So how aligned are you with the leader's current perspective of 13 00:00:36,240 - > 00:00:37,280 the right thing to do? 14 00:00:37,439 - > 00:00:39,280 And on the other axis, you have confidence. 15 00:00:39,359 - > 00:00:44,079 So, how confident is the leader in your ability to deliver 16 00:00:44,320 - > 00:00:44,960 results? 17 00:00:45,200 - > 00:00:48,799 And ultimately, convincing leadership is a matter of moving 18 00:00:48,799 - > 00:00:50,960 through that map of alignment and confidence. 19 00:00:51,039 - > 00:00:55,520 And so, in terms of telling that story and getting that support, 20 00:00:55,679 - > 00:00:59,920 you can either do it by making that story more highly aligned 21 00:00:59,920 - > 00:01:03,119 with what the executive already believes is the right direction, 22 00:01:03,600 - > 00:01:06,560 or by winning their trust and their confidence. 23 00:01:07,760 - > 00:01:09,120 SPEAKER_02: Hey Product Rebels. 24 00:01:09,280 - > 00:01:12,480 Welcome back to another episode of the Product Rebels Podcast, 25 00:01:12,640 - > 00:01:15,920 featuring a natural leader in multiple tech industries. 26 00:01:16,159 - > 00:01:16,959 We're your host. 27 00:01:17,040 - > 00:01:18,159 I'm Heather Samrin. 28 00:01:18,239 - > 00:01:19,519 And I'm Didiya Dunamani. 29 00:01:19,840 - > 00:01:22,560 Today we are honored to have an exceptional guest joining us, 30 00:01:22,719 - > 00:01:23,599 Ravi Meta. 31 00:01:26,159 - > 00:01:29,359 Ravi's career began at Microsoft, where he was an early 32 00:01:29,359 - > 00:01:32,560 member of the Xbox team with a specific focus on the 33 00:01:32,560 - > 00:01:34,640 groundbreaking Xbox Live. 34 00:01:34,879 - > 00:01:37,599 This experience fueled his passion for leveraging 35 00:01:37,599 - > 00:01:41,439 technology to create immersive experiences and connect 36 00:01:41,439 - > 00:01:42,079 communities. 37 00:01:42,319 - > 00:01:46,079 Today, Ravi is the co-founder and CEO of Outpace, a 38 00:01:46,079 - > 00:01:49,200 groundbreaking company that is revolutionizing the way people 39 00:01:49,200 - > 00:01:50,319 learn and grow. 40 00:01:50,560 - > 00:01:54,640 Before co-founding Outpace, Ravi held the position of executive 41 00:01:54,640 - > 00:01:58,560 in residence at Reforge, where he played a key role in creating 42 00:01:58,560 - > 00:02:01,760 the product leadership program and launching the product 43 00:02:01,920 - > 00:02:02,799 strategy program. 44 00:02:03,280 - > 00:02:07,200 Notable milestones in Robbie's journey include his role as the 45 00:02:07,200 - > 00:02:10,639 chief product officer at Tinder, product director at Facebook, 46 00:02:10,719 - > 00:02:13,199 and head of consumer product at TripAdvisor. 47 00:02:13,360 - > 00:02:16,639 Ravi Meta is a true trailblazer in the industry. 48 00:02:16,800 - > 00:02:20,639 His insights, coupled with his strategic mindset and dedication 49 00:02:20,639 - > 00:02:24,080 to fostering innovation, have earned him a reputation as 50 00:02:24,240 - > 00:02:26,159 thought leader and influencer. 51 00:02:26,400 - > 00:02:29,439 Get ready to be inspired as we embark on an engaging 52 00:02:29,439 - > 00:02:32,719 conversation with Ravi, delving into the realm of consumer 53 00:02:32,719 - > 00:02:36,000 technology, product leadership, and the profound impact of 54 00:02:36,000 - > 00:02:38,319 innovation on personal growth. 55 00:02:38,719 - > 00:02:39,759 Welcome, Ravi. 56 00:02:45,280 - > 00:02:47,759 Ravi, thanks so much for joining us today. 57 00:02:47,840 - > 00:02:51,360 We're so excited for this conversation and really excited 58 00:02:51,360 - > 00:02:55,520 to hear some of your rebellious activities and behaviors. 59 00:02:56,159 - > 00:02:57,360 But thank you for joining. 60 00:02:57,680 - > 00:02:58,080 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. 61 00:02:58,159 - > 00:02:58,800 Thank you for having me. 62 00:02:59,039 - > 00:02:59,360 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 63 00:02:59,520 - > 00:03:04,240 The first question we ask everyone that joins us for our 64 00:03:04,240 - > 00:03:08,240 podcast sessions is what does product rebel mean to you? 65 00:03:08,560 - > 00:03:10,240 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's a really interesting question. 66 00:03:10,319 - > 00:03:11,759 I had to think about it a little bit. 67 00:03:11,840 - > 00:03:16,639 And I think what it means to me is someone who is willing to go 68 00:03:16,639 - > 00:03:17,599 against the grain. 69 00:03:17,680 - > 00:03:19,840 I think one of the things that I've seen over and over in my 70 00:03:19,840 - > 00:03:23,439 career as a product manager and a product leader is that 71 00:03:23,439 - > 00:03:26,719 companies can very easily get distracted from serving the 72 00:03:26,719 - > 00:03:27,199 customer. 73 00:03:27,360 - > 00:03:29,680 I think this is one of the advantages that startups have. 74 00:03:29,759 - > 00:03:32,319 It's one of the reasons that consistently big companies get 75 00:03:32,319 - > 00:03:33,039 disrupted. 76 00:03:33,199 - > 00:03:35,199 Startups start with no data. 77 00:03:35,439 - > 00:03:37,280 All they have are a handful of customers. 78 00:03:37,360 - > 00:03:40,240 And the thing that they can do to learn is they can talk to the 79 00:03:40,240 - > 00:03:42,879 customers, but there's not much else they can do other than 80 00:03:42,879 - > 00:03:43,039 that. 81 00:03:43,199 - > 00:03:44,479 And so that's the thing that they do. 82 00:03:44,560 - > 00:03:48,400 And they often glean really unique insights as a result of 83 00:03:48,400 - > 00:03:52,080 that that allow them to solve a customer's needs in a way that a 84 00:03:52,080 - > 00:03:55,039 much bigger company, which has the resources to do that, can't 85 00:03:55,039 - > 00:03:55,840 always do that. 86 00:03:56,000 - > 00:03:59,680 The problem is as companies get bigger and bigger, there starts 87 00:03:59,680 - > 00:04:03,199 to be a growing stack of goals that are more about the company 88 00:04:03,199 - > 00:04:04,240 than they are about the customer. 89 00:04:04,400 - > 00:04:06,080 You know, that could be, you know, what are we trying to 90 00:04:06,080 - > 00:04:07,759 achieve for our next fundraising round? 91 00:04:07,840 - > 00:04:09,919 Or what numbers have we given to Wall Street? 92 00:04:10,000 - > 00:04:12,000 And so what quarterly guidance do we need to hit? 93 00:04:12,159 - > 00:04:15,599 And so a lot of, you know, a person's success as a product 94 00:04:15,599 - > 00:04:18,800 manager and a product leader gets factored into, you know, 95 00:04:18,879 - > 00:04:22,319 are you helping us realize those internal goals that are really 96 00:04:22,319 - > 00:04:22,800 important to us? 97 00:04:22,879 - > 00:04:26,079 And I think a product rebel is someone who is good at saying, 98 00:04:26,240 - > 00:04:27,279 no, no, wait a second. 99 00:04:27,360 - > 00:04:29,439 Like let's not focus only on the internal goals. 100 00:04:29,519 - > 00:04:32,240 Let's realize that the internal goals will only truly get 101 00:04:32,240 - > 00:04:34,720 satisfied in the long run if we serve our customers. 102 00:04:34,879 - > 00:04:37,759 So let's go back to the first principles around understanding 103 00:04:37,759 - > 00:04:40,399 the customer needs, solving for those needs. 104 00:04:40,480 - > 00:04:43,439 And I think a product rebel is someone who has the foresight to 105 00:04:43,439 - > 00:04:46,800 do that and the courage to do that and be that advocate for 106 00:04:46,800 - > 00:04:49,920 the customer, even when there's a lot happening internally that 107 00:04:49,920 - > 00:04:51,040 goes against the grain. 108 00:04:51,279 - > 00:04:52,560 SPEAKER_01: That is so interesting. 109 00:04:52,720 - > 00:04:55,759 It's just like I kind of got goosebumps because I felt like 110 00:04:55,759 - > 00:04:58,879 what you're saying is that we all start off life as a rebel, 111 00:04:59,120 - > 00:05:03,040 and then forces take away that rebellionness from us and it 112 00:05:03,040 - > 00:05:03,759 makes down. 113 00:05:04,160 - > 00:05:04,959 Get beat down. 114 00:05:05,120 - > 00:05:08,560 And it's also exactly, and you know, there's other things to 115 00:05:08,560 - > 00:05:09,199 focus on. 116 00:05:09,439 - > 00:05:12,959 It also is true the more senior you get in an organization, it 117 00:05:12,959 - > 00:05:15,279 feels like you're you're starting to get pulled away. 118 00:05:15,360 - > 00:05:19,680 And it's a real forcing function to stay focused on that 119 00:05:19,680 - > 00:05:20,319 customer. 120 00:05:20,480 - > 00:05:24,720 So I want to hear how you manage to do that because you've worked 121 00:05:24,720 - > 00:05:27,120 for a number of such interesting companies. 122 00:05:27,199 - > 00:05:28,720 I I want to hear about all of them. 123 00:05:28,800 - > 00:05:30,879 We're probably going to get a chance to talk about a couple, 124 00:05:31,120 - > 00:05:35,839 but how did you maintain going from that smaller company focus 125 00:05:36,160 - > 00:05:40,480 where it could be like you are naturally a rebel, to how do you 126 00:05:40,480 - > 00:05:40,959 maintain that? 127 00:05:41,199 - > 00:05:42,959 How do you get your team to maintain that? 128 00:05:43,279 - > 00:05:45,519 SPEAKER_00: I think the first thing is that it does require 129 00:05:45,519 - > 00:05:47,839 discretion in terms of like when's the right time to be a 130 00:05:47,839 - > 00:05:50,720 rebel and when isn't the right time to be a rebel. 131 00:05:50,879 - > 00:05:54,160 I think oftentimes um, you know, if you come in and you know 132 00:05:54,240 - > 00:05:56,720 there's a there's a current heading in a particular 133 00:05:56,720 - > 00:05:59,600 direction, and the person who's always kind of going against the 134 00:05:59,600 - > 00:06:02,399 grain but not really paying attention to what the company is 135 00:06:02,399 - > 00:06:05,920 solving for, then that person can get unheard because they've 136 00:06:05,920 - > 00:06:08,639 always got a message that's sort of misaligned with where the 137 00:06:08,639 - > 00:06:09,360 company is going. 138 00:06:09,439 - > 00:06:11,519 And so I think to be a really effective product rebel, 139 00:06:11,600 - > 00:06:14,639 especially within a large organization, it's important to 140 00:06:14,639 - > 00:06:18,240 keep a close eye at where is the organization going, what is 141 00:06:18,240 - > 00:06:22,399 leadership concerned about, and how can you use that current 142 00:06:22,399 - > 00:06:24,079 rather than fight against it. 143 00:06:24,319 - > 00:06:28,319 And so that entails looking for opportunities to say, we can 144 00:06:28,319 - > 00:06:29,759 think about this a little bit differently. 145 00:06:29,920 - > 00:06:34,319 So, you know, if the company's goal is to increase revenue by 146 00:06:34,319 - > 00:06:37,519 10%, going back and saying, well, let's look at you know, 147 00:06:37,600 - > 00:06:38,959 what are the levers of revenue? 148 00:06:39,120 - > 00:06:42,879 Let's look at how customer value ultimately gets translated into 149 00:06:42,879 - > 00:06:45,439 revenue and go back to these specific needs that we aren't 150 00:06:45,439 - > 00:06:48,560 solving for for customers that actually allow us to increase 151 00:06:48,560 - > 00:06:53,040 revenue in a way that's deeply rooted in the customer needs and 152 00:06:53,040 - > 00:06:57,920 not necessarily only focused on the company's needs to drive 153 00:06:57,920 - > 00:06:58,240 revenue. 154 00:06:58,399 - > 00:07:00,879 And I think what happens, especially with large companies 155 00:07:00,879 - > 00:07:03,839 that have a lot of data, is product teams can get into a 156 00:07:03,839 - > 00:07:06,720 very experimental mindset where they just run experiments and 157 00:07:06,720 - > 00:07:09,360 certain experiments work, other experiments don't work. 158 00:07:09,519 - > 00:07:12,480 And then over time, you know, product teams that don't really 159 00:07:12,480 - > 00:07:14,720 understand the customer can generate really interesting 160 00:07:14,720 - > 00:07:17,600 returns just by having a really nice pipeline of experiments, 161 00:07:17,759 - > 00:07:19,600 running those experiments and driving them. 162 00:07:19,680 - > 00:07:23,279 But the problem is that when that happens, the product is not 163 00:07:23,279 - > 00:07:25,279 driving towards a North Star. 164 00:07:25,360 - > 00:07:29,920 The product is getting built sort of organically and without 165 00:07:29,920 - > 00:07:32,800 a clear North Star for where the product needs to go. 166 00:07:32,959 - > 00:07:36,000 And that can get very distracting and overwhelming for 167 00:07:36,000 - > 00:07:36,639 customers. 168 00:07:36,800 - > 00:07:40,800 And that typically doesn't show up in the quarterly earnings or 169 00:07:40,879 - > 00:07:42,720 you know, in any sort of near-term metrics. 170 00:07:42,800 - > 00:07:45,360 But what it does do is it makes the company vulnerable so that 171 00:07:45,360 - > 00:07:47,439 when a better competitor comes along that has a much more 172 00:07:47,439 - > 00:07:50,000 streamlined and much more focused customer experience, 173 00:07:50,160 - > 00:07:52,879 customers are much more willing to switch in the face of an 174 00:07:52,879 - > 00:07:53,439 alternative. 175 00:07:53,519 - > 00:07:56,160 And so I think it's really important for people to think 176 00:07:56,160 - > 00:07:58,399 about you know, what's my leadership trying to accomplish? 177 00:07:58,480 - > 00:08:00,000 What are we trying to do as a company? 178 00:08:00,160 - > 00:08:02,319 What are our customers trying to do? 179 00:08:02,480 - > 00:08:05,839 And then use that to figure out the right time to introduce the 180 00:08:05,839 - > 00:08:10,240 ideas and bring things back to that customer mindset to help 181 00:08:10,240 - > 00:08:13,040 you get to those really big leaps in terms of goals and 182 00:08:13,040 - > 00:08:14,240 those long-term improvements. 183 00:08:14,480 - > 00:08:15,279 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that. 184 00:08:15,360 - > 00:08:17,519 You know, it's it's connecting the dots, right? 185 00:08:17,680 - > 00:08:21,120 Making sure you've got that true north or that rudder of, you 186 00:08:21,120 - > 00:08:24,639 know, what's the outcome we're looking for short and long term, 187 00:08:24,800 - > 00:08:27,120 and how do we leverage experimentation to get there? 188 00:08:27,279 - > 00:08:28,240 So love it. 189 00:08:28,560 - > 00:08:30,079 Can you tell us a story about it? 190 00:08:30,240 - > 00:08:33,759 You've shared a story around TripAdvisor where this sort of 191 00:08:33,759 - > 00:08:34,720 happened for you. 192 00:08:34,879 - > 00:08:37,360 And I'd love to share that with our listeners because I think 193 00:08:37,360 - > 00:08:40,879 it's a really great lesson for all of us to think about. 194 00:08:41,120 - > 00:08:42,000 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely. 195 00:08:42,159 - > 00:08:45,919 So I was the head of consumer product at TripAdvisor for a 196 00:08:45,919 - > 00:08:47,840 number of years, starting in 2012. 197 00:08:48,000 - > 00:08:51,759 So right after it had been rolled out from Expedia and then 198 00:08:51,759 - > 00:08:54,240 going through until about 2017. 199 00:08:54,559 - > 00:08:57,519 TripAdvisor has some things that are part of the culture that are 200 00:08:57,519 - > 00:08:58,639 really deeply ingrained. 201 00:08:58,799 - > 00:09:01,120 I think one of the reasons has led to the company's success. 202 00:09:01,279 - > 00:09:02,720 So it's a company that moves very quickly. 203 00:09:02,879 - > 00:09:05,759 Speed wins is one of the mottos of the company. 204 00:09:05,919 - > 00:09:08,639 And the other one is, you know, if it's worth doing, it's worth 205 00:09:08,639 - > 00:09:08,960 measuring. 206 00:09:09,039 - > 00:09:12,639 So it's a very fast, very data-driven, very experimental 207 00:09:12,639 - > 00:09:13,120 company. 208 00:09:13,279 - > 00:09:16,879 And that has worked really, really well and got TripAdvisor 209 00:09:16,879 - > 00:09:20,960 to a point where it was the number one travel destination in 210 00:09:20,960 - > 00:09:23,919 terms of total number of travelers visiting the product 211 00:09:23,919 - > 00:09:24,639 in a given month. 212 00:09:24,720 - > 00:09:28,159 So about 300 million people were visiting the product at the time 213 00:09:28,240 - > 00:09:32,159 this particular case took place, and this was in around 2016. 214 00:09:32,399 - > 00:09:35,919 But as a result of being so experimental, so focused on 215 00:09:35,919 - > 00:09:39,360 conversion, what we were finding was that, you know, as people 216 00:09:39,360 - > 00:09:42,559 were coming to the site, either organically through Google, 217 00:09:42,639 - > 00:09:44,799 through the search engine optimization that TripAdvisor 218 00:09:44,799 - > 00:09:48,960 had done incredibly well, or through paid search, we were 219 00:09:48,960 - > 00:09:51,200 developing the product experience so that we could move 220 00:09:51,200 - > 00:09:53,759 them as quickly as possible to a booking, so that we could get 221 00:09:53,759 - > 00:09:56,080 them to book a hotel or a restaurant or attraction, 222 00:09:56,159 - > 00:09:59,440 because that is ultimately how TripAdvisor monetizes. 223 00:09:59,679 - > 00:10:02,720 And all of the things that we were using to evaluate 224 00:10:02,720 - > 00:10:05,360 successful experiments were focused on that conversion event 225 00:10:05,440 - > 00:10:07,360 because that ultimately drove revenue. 226 00:10:07,519 - > 00:10:10,960 So, in the goal to drive the highest amount of revenue 227 00:10:10,960 - > 00:10:15,279 possible, we were implementing a product experience that worked 228 00:10:15,279 - > 00:10:17,519 nicely for the customer in the sense that it got them to where 229 00:10:17,519 - > 00:10:20,960 they wanted to go from a conversion standpoint, but made 230 00:10:20,960 - > 00:10:24,320 TripAdvisor sort of a step along the way rather than the 231 00:10:24,320 - > 00:10:26,159 destination in and of itself. 232 00:10:26,320 - > 00:10:28,960 And what that had led to was the company being more and more 233 00:10:28,960 - > 00:10:31,279 dependent on Google as a source of traffic. 234 00:10:31,440 - > 00:10:35,200 So people were really doing their travel discovery on 235 00:10:35,200 - > 00:10:39,440 Google, coming to TripAdvisor to inform their opinions before 236 00:10:39,440 - > 00:10:41,759 they booked, and then going on and booking. 237 00:10:41,919 - > 00:10:45,919 And so, although TripAdvisor had this very significant role 238 00:10:45,919 - > 00:10:49,440 within the travel purchase decision cycle, it wasn't 239 00:10:49,440 - > 00:10:51,279 necessarily capturing that value. 240 00:10:51,360 - > 00:10:54,720 So we did uh some research that said that something like 70% of 241 00:10:54,720 - > 00:10:58,480 all travel bookings at the time were informed by TripAdvisor 242 00:10:58,480 - > 00:11:00,879 content, but only a small fraction of those travel 243 00:11:00,879 - > 00:11:03,600 bookings were actually happening on the platform. 244 00:11:03,759 - > 00:11:06,480 And that was because what was happening was that travelers 245 00:11:06,480 - > 00:11:09,919 were going back to Google again and again and again and starting 246 00:11:09,919 - > 00:11:12,720 their search there rather than starting their search on 247 00:11:12,720 - > 00:11:13,679 TripAdvisor. 248 00:11:13,840 - > 00:11:16,639 And so in 2016, we said, you know, we have to solve this 249 00:11:16,639 - > 00:11:16,799 problem. 250 00:11:16,960 - > 00:11:20,399 We have to create reasons for people to come directly to the 251 00:11:20,399 - > 00:11:24,559 site and to engage with TripAdvisor, not just in the 252 00:11:24,559 - > 00:11:27,600 moment when they're ready to book, but really throughout the 253 00:11:27,600 - > 00:11:28,639 travel planning cycle. 254 00:11:28,720 - > 00:11:32,639 And so we decided to implement a travel planning solution, the 255 00:11:32,639 - > 00:11:36,960 goal of which was to get people to start their travel planning 256 00:11:36,960 - > 00:11:40,720 on TripAdvisor, to save things, to build their itinerary. 257 00:11:40,799 - > 00:11:44,320 And so instead of going back to Google, where Google had no 258 00:11:44,320 - > 00:11:47,120 prior understanding of their trip plans, they would come back 259 00:11:47,120 - > 00:11:48,960 to TripAdvisor to do that. 260 00:11:49,120 - > 00:11:52,080 And as a result, we would get more and more direct traffic and 261 00:11:52,080 - > 00:11:55,279 become less dependent on those Google-based sources of traffic, 262 00:11:55,440 - > 00:11:56,879 organic and paid search. 263 00:11:57,039 - > 00:12:00,399 And so we started that with something that was very 264 00:12:00,399 - > 00:12:01,120 controversial. 265 00:12:01,360 - > 00:12:04,960 Rather than jumping in and running a test and getting 266 00:12:04,960 - > 00:12:08,480 something live within a few weeks or a month, we said to the 267 00:12:08,480 - > 00:12:12,080 team, actually take a full quarter without shipping any 268 00:12:12,080 - > 00:12:12,559 software. 269 00:12:12,720 - > 00:12:15,200 Don't worry about launching product. 270 00:12:15,360 - > 00:12:19,440 Take a quarter to think about what the TripAdvisor product 271 00:12:19,440 - > 00:12:23,360 experience need to look like in the NordStar case where we've 272 00:12:23,360 - > 00:12:26,240 achieved this goal of being the hub of a person's travel 273 00:12:26,240 - > 00:12:27,519 planning activity. 274 00:12:28,080 - > 00:12:31,600 And the deliverable for the team was not working product, but was 275 00:12:31,600 - > 00:12:32,639 actually a strategy document. 276 00:12:32,879 - > 00:12:36,000 We defined very clearly what that strategy document was. 277 00:12:36,399 - > 00:12:39,759 And it was incredibly liberating for the team because the team, 278 00:12:39,919 - > 00:12:43,759 the product leaders, engineering leaders, design, user research, 279 00:12:44,159 - > 00:12:47,200 data science all got together and said, we've got the time and 280 00:12:47,200 - > 00:12:49,279 the space to really think this through. 281 00:12:49,519 - > 00:12:55,200 And we've also got permission to not be constrained by past tests 282 00:12:55,200 - > 00:12:58,559 and past tribal wisdom of what works and doesn't work. 283 00:12:58,720 - > 00:13:01,759 And they spent a significant part of the quarter really 284 00:13:01,759 - > 00:13:04,559 thinking deeply about the problem, doing user research. 285 00:13:04,639 - > 00:13:08,080 And we came out of that with a very clear North Star of where 286 00:13:08,080 - > 00:13:09,200 we wanted to go. 287 00:13:09,360 - > 00:13:12,960 And from that, we then broke that down into iterative pieces 288 00:13:12,960 - > 00:13:16,320 that we could build quickly and iteratively so that we could 289 00:13:16,320 - > 00:13:19,600 move with that TripAdvisor philosophy of moving quickly and 290 00:13:19,600 - > 00:13:22,720 doing so in a very data-driven manner, but do it in a way that 291 00:13:22,720 - > 00:13:26,240 was guided by a North Star that everyone understood and everyone 292 00:13:26,240 - > 00:13:27,039 was aligned with. 293 00:13:27,120 - > 00:13:30,000 And what's really excited about that process is that that 294 00:13:30,000 - > 00:13:33,200 ability to take some time and space away and create a North 295 00:13:33,200 - > 00:13:35,759 Star created a vision for the product, which is largely 296 00:13:35,759 - > 00:13:37,200 reflected in the product today. 297 00:13:37,279 - > 00:13:41,039 So even years later, the foundational work that that team 298 00:13:41,039 - > 00:13:44,240 did has guided how TripAdvisor's product has evolved overall. 299 00:13:44,480 - > 00:13:47,519 SPEAKER_01: You know, as I listen to this, I expect others 300 00:13:47,519 - > 00:13:50,000 are also thinking, what a luxury, right? 301 00:13:50,159 - > 00:13:53,440 Just the when the way that you described being able to step 302 00:13:53,440 - > 00:13:57,919 back and take the time, truly learn, truly think about this in 303 00:13:57,919 - > 00:14:01,440 a way that kind of goes beyond, I've got a few days to make a 304 00:14:01,440 - > 00:14:02,960 decision about what we do next. 305 00:14:03,360 - > 00:14:08,240 What do you think were the elements of was it leadership? 306 00:14:08,559 - > 00:14:11,200 Was it because you're in an interviewer position with 307 00:14:11,200 - > 00:14:11,679 revenue? 308 00:14:11,840 - > 00:14:15,120 Like what were there other sort of secret source elements that 309 00:14:15,279 - > 00:14:16,639 that made this happen? 310 00:14:16,799 - > 00:14:20,399 Because clearly you gave the direction, but the organization 311 00:14:20,559 - > 00:14:21,840 also went along with it. 312 00:14:21,919 - > 00:14:25,919 And I know that that's really hard to do in so many places. 313 00:14:26,080 - > 00:14:30,080 So I'm trying to understand what else was in place in order for 314 00:14:30,080 - > 00:14:34,480 you to be able to have this beautiful time to truly learn 315 00:14:34,480 - > 00:14:35,919 and set that North Star. 316 00:14:36,159 - > 00:14:37,919 SPEAKER_02: Especially when you're trying to meet short-term 317 00:14:37,919 - > 00:14:38,559 revenue goals. 318 00:14:38,720 - > 00:14:40,399 I'm sure this was a really big change. 319 00:14:40,960 - > 00:14:43,039 SPEAKER_00: It was a very significant change from how the 320 00:14:43,279 - > 00:14:44,639 team typically worked. 321 00:14:44,720 - > 00:14:45,919 So we did a couple of things. 322 00:14:46,080 - > 00:14:49,120 One, there was a growing realization that this was a 323 00:14:49,120 - > 00:14:50,720 problem that we needed to solve. 324 00:14:50,879 - > 00:14:55,120 And so before getting to that point where we said, let's put 325 00:14:55,120 - > 00:14:58,000 aside this time, we were very clear about framing this problem 326 00:14:58,000 - > 00:15:00,720 and why this different approach was very important to making 327 00:15:00,720 - > 00:15:04,320 sure that we made progress and why, if we sort of did what we 328 00:15:04,320 - > 00:15:07,840 normally did in terms of product development, it was liable to 329 00:15:07,840 - > 00:15:10,480 result in something where we got some incremental gains, but we 330 00:15:10,480 - > 00:15:12,639 weren't really solving the root of the issue. 331 00:15:12,720 - > 00:15:15,200 So the first thing was being very clear about the problem, 332 00:15:15,360 - > 00:15:18,720 framing that problem, and articulating why an alternative 333 00:15:18,720 - > 00:15:23,039 approach is really important in this case, relative to the way 334 00:15:23,039 - > 00:15:25,039 that we had typically built software. 335 00:15:25,200 - > 00:15:28,080 The second thing was to say, look, we're not gonna take an 336 00:15:28,080 - > 00:15:32,399 entire engineering team offline for a quarter. 337 00:15:32,559 - > 00:15:35,039 But we all know, and as product managers were familiar with 338 00:15:35,039 - > 00:15:36,639 this, there's lots of technical debt. 339 00:15:36,799 - > 00:15:39,679 And you know, every single quarter we're striving to figure 340 00:15:39,679 - > 00:15:42,399 out like what is the technical debt that we actually have time 341 00:15:42,639 - > 00:15:45,840 to address versus the feature work that we want to get done. 342 00:15:46,000 - > 00:15:49,519 Here we were able to say, we're gonna spend a lot of time this 343 00:15:49,519 - > 00:15:51,600 quarter thinking about what needs to get built, what the 344 00:15:51,600 - > 00:15:53,919 North Star is, and that's actually gonna free up the 345 00:15:53,919 - > 00:15:56,879 engineering team to evaluate what is the technical debt that 346 00:15:56,879 - > 00:15:58,480 we need to work on during this quarter. 347 00:15:58,639 - > 00:16:01,600 And we focused on the technical debt that we would need in order 348 00:16:01,600 - > 00:16:03,360 to implement the travel planning functionality. 349 00:16:03,440 - > 00:16:06,480 And that largely revolved around the saving system. 350 00:16:06,639 - > 00:16:08,960 So the save system at TripAdvisor was something that 351 00:16:08,960 - > 00:16:11,840 TripAdvisor had implemented years earlier, but the code 352 00:16:11,840 - > 00:16:13,759 hadn't been touched in years, and there were some concerns 353 00:16:13,759 - > 00:16:16,559 about scalability and whether or not it would actually work with 354 00:16:16,559 - > 00:16:17,919 this travel planning use case. 355 00:16:18,000 - > 00:16:20,720 And so we said, all right, you know, those concerns are totally 356 00:16:20,720 - > 00:16:20,960 fair. 357 00:16:21,120 - > 00:16:23,519 Let's spend time this quarter working on technical debt and 358 00:16:23,519 - > 00:16:26,159 then building our North Star strategy so that we're making 359 00:16:26,159 - > 00:16:28,960 progress, but we're making progress in a different way than 360 00:16:28,960 - > 00:16:29,360 before. 361 00:16:29,440 - > 00:16:32,960 And so that really aligned a lot of different perspectives 362 00:16:32,960 - > 00:16:35,279 together and gave folks what they wanted. 363 00:16:35,440 - > 00:16:39,120 The third thing was to be very clear about what the deliverable 364 00:16:39,120 - > 00:16:40,000 is going to be. 365 00:16:40,080 - > 00:16:43,759 And so rather than saying, hey, we're gonna implement a strategy 366 00:16:43,840 - > 00:16:46,960 or we're gonna define a strategy during this quarter, and people 367 00:16:46,960 - > 00:16:48,399 weren't really clear what that meant. 368 00:16:48,559 - > 00:16:51,200 We actually said, you know, page by page, here's what the 369 00:16:51,200 - > 00:16:53,200 strategy document is going to be. 370 00:16:53,360 - > 00:16:55,679 It's going to include, you know, what is the goal that we're 371 00:16:55,679 - > 00:16:56,559 solving for? 372 00:16:56,720 - > 00:16:58,799 What are the key use cases that we're solving for? 373 00:16:58,879 - > 00:17:01,039 What are the use cases that we're not solving for? 374 00:17:01,200 - > 00:17:04,640 And then very critically, one thing that I've come to believe 375 00:17:04,640 - > 00:17:07,440 very strongly is that vision is visual. 376 00:17:07,599 - > 00:17:11,839 And so it's very hard to create a vision for a product without 377 00:17:11,839 - > 00:17:14,000 some sort of wireframes or design. 378 00:17:14,079 - > 00:17:16,720 And so we said part of the strategy document is going to be 379 00:17:16,720 - > 00:17:20,799 20 or 30 wireframes that clearly articulate what the North Star 380 00:17:21,039 - > 00:17:24,000 is so that we're all on the same page about what we're going to 381 00:17:24,240 - > 00:17:24,640 build. 382 00:17:24,799 - > 00:17:27,599 And that was a key unlock because that made it very clear 383 00:17:27,599 - > 00:17:31,119 what we were striving for and what the end deliverable would 384 00:17:31,119 - > 00:17:33,279 be and why that would be important for the company to get 385 00:17:33,279 - > 00:17:34,160 everyone aligned. 386 00:17:34,559 - > 00:17:35,279 SPEAKER_01: So cool. 387 00:17:35,519 - > 00:17:38,640 I just think there's a couple of things that that really just 388 00:17:38,640 - > 00:17:42,160 sort of like uh leapt out at me, which is often we talk about 389 00:17:42,160 - > 00:17:45,920 strategy and it's this amorphous thing, and we're trying to buy 390 00:17:45,920 - > 00:17:47,599 time to work on something. 391 00:17:47,839 - > 00:17:51,359 I love the fact that you said, I am going to tell you exactly 392 00:17:51,359 - > 00:17:54,079 what this is going to look like once we've done the work. 393 00:17:54,240 - > 00:17:55,759 I that is such a great lesson. 394 00:17:56,000 - > 00:17:58,079 SPEAKER_00: And the um the wireframing thing is important. 395 00:17:58,160 - > 00:18:00,640 It's it's counterintuitive for for product teams. 396 00:18:00,799 - > 00:18:04,480 But the analogy I like to use is if you go to an architect and 397 00:18:04,480 - > 00:18:07,039 you say, I want to build a house, and they say, Well, I'm 398 00:18:07,039 - > 00:18:08,480 not going to give you blueprints, I'm just going to 399 00:18:08,480 - > 00:18:10,400 give you a document that describes the house I'm going to 400 00:18:10,400 - > 00:18:10,960 build for you. 401 00:18:11,119 - > 00:18:15,279 There is no way you would sign up to actually pay for that 402 00:18:15,279 - > 00:18:18,400 build because you wouldn't really understand what the end 403 00:18:18,400 - > 00:18:19,440 product was going to look like. 404 00:18:19,519 - > 00:18:23,039 And so blueprints serve a very valuable purpose of they help 405 00:18:23,039 - > 00:18:25,200 you to visualize what the end product is going to be. 406 00:18:25,359 - > 00:18:27,200 Wireframes serve that same purpose. 407 00:18:27,279 - > 00:18:30,880 And I don't think any vision or strategy document is complete 408 00:18:30,880 - > 00:18:32,160 without a blueprint of the product. 409 00:18:32,240 - > 00:18:34,079 And so it's not complete without wireframes. 410 00:18:34,319 - > 00:18:35,759 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally agree. 411 00:18:36,079 - > 00:18:40,240 I want to dig into your first sort of element of success, 412 00:18:40,400 - > 00:18:43,519 which is just what I translated as sort of creating this 413 00:18:43,519 - > 00:18:44,000 platform. 414 00:18:44,799 - > 00:18:47,519 You know, one of the things that's really challenging, 415 00:18:47,680 - > 00:18:50,880 especially for folks that may be a little less experienced than 416 00:18:50,880 - > 00:18:53,839 you, right, that are trying to lead big change in 417 00:18:53,839 - > 00:18:54,480 organizations. 418 00:18:55,200 - > 00:18:59,440 It's figuring out the best way to establish that platform that 419 00:18:59,440 - > 00:19:06,079 gets people okay or accepting of sort of change and risk, right? 420 00:19:06,240 - > 00:19:08,240 Getting people feeling comfortable with that. 421 00:19:08,640 - > 00:19:12,240 Talk to us a little bit about, you know, if we have a product 422 00:19:12,240 - > 00:19:14,880 leader listening today or a product manager listening today 423 00:19:14,880 - > 00:19:16,480 that sees a change is needed. 424 00:19:16,960 - > 00:19:22,559 What are some of the tips and tricks that you have in helping 425 00:19:22,559 - > 00:19:26,720 them define a platform for change, but also getting it, 426 00:19:26,960 - > 00:19:30,079 getting commitment on that change, uh that prospect of 427 00:19:30,079 - > 00:19:30,400 change? 428 00:19:30,640 - > 00:19:31,680 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a really good question. 429 00:19:31,759 - > 00:19:34,559 I think there's a few elements to that. 430 00:19:34,799 - > 00:19:38,000 The top level, I think, first principle is that in order to 431 00:19:38,000 - > 00:19:40,799 drive change in the organization, you need support 432 00:19:40,799 - > 00:19:41,440 from executives. 433 00:19:41,599 - > 00:19:44,160 You ideally need support from your boss, you need support from 434 00:19:44,160 - > 00:19:47,200 other executives within the business. 435 00:19:47,519 - > 00:19:51,039 And I think a lot of times product managers and product 436 00:19:51,039 - > 00:19:53,599 leaders make the mistake of thinking, you know, if I have a 437 00:19:53,599 - > 00:19:56,400 good idea and it's well substantiated and it's supported 438 00:19:56,400 - > 00:20:01,359 by data, then you know, that's all that I need in order to 439 00:20:01,359 - > 00:20:05,440 convince a leader to go with what I think is the right 440 00:20:05,440 - > 00:20:06,880 direction moving forward. 441 00:20:07,039 - > 00:20:09,440 And I like to encourage people to think about this problem in 442 00:20:09,440 - > 00:20:10,559 terms of two dimensions. 443 00:20:10,720 - > 00:20:13,039 On one axis, you have alignment. 444 00:20:13,119 - > 00:20:16,960 So, how aligned are you with the leader's current perspective of 445 00:20:16,960 - > 00:20:18,079 the right thing to do? 446 00:20:18,240 - > 00:20:20,000 And on the other axis, you have confidence. 447 00:20:20,160 - > 00:20:24,799 So, how confident is the leader in your ability to deliver 448 00:20:25,039 - > 00:20:25,680 results? 449 00:20:25,920 - > 00:20:29,519 And ultimately, convincing leadership is a matter of moving 450 00:20:29,519 - > 00:20:31,680 through that map of alignment and confidence. 451 00:20:31,759 - > 00:20:34,400 And so if you're highly out of line, so you're highly 452 00:20:34,400 - > 00:20:36,880 misaligned with what a leader currently thinks is the right 453 00:20:36,880 - > 00:20:40,000 direction, it's nearly impossible to convince them to 454 00:20:40,000 - > 00:20:43,119 do something if they don't already have confidence in you 455 00:20:43,200 - > 00:20:46,079 and they aren't willing to go out on a limb with you. 456 00:20:46,240 - > 00:20:48,559 And so that's really important is to think about that. 457 00:20:48,640 - > 00:20:52,960 So, in terms of telling that story and getting that support, 458 00:20:53,200 - > 00:20:57,359 you can either do it by making that story more highly aligned 459 00:20:57,359 - > 00:21:00,559 with what the executive already believes is the right direction, 460 00:21:01,039 - > 00:21:03,440 or by winning their trust and their confidence. 461 00:21:03,519 - > 00:21:06,799 So they'll support you so that even if they don't currently 462 00:21:06,799 - > 00:21:09,759 agree with your perspective, they're willing to say, I'm I'm 463 00:21:09,759 - > 00:21:12,720 willing to go out on a limb for you because you've proven to me 464 00:21:12,720 - > 00:21:15,279 time and time again, you have the track record of saying, of 465 00:21:15,279 - > 00:21:17,759 coming to me with surprising and controversial ideas and showing 466 00:21:17,759 - > 00:21:19,119 the impact that they can have. 467 00:21:19,279 - > 00:21:22,480 So I think that that is that first thing is to understand and 468 00:21:22,480 - > 00:21:25,519 assess where are you on that spectrum with the leader that 469 00:21:25,519 - > 00:21:26,799 you're trying to convince. 470 00:21:26,880 - > 00:21:29,200 And then based on that, you can figure out what are the 471 00:21:29,200 - > 00:21:32,480 techniques and the strategies in order to either get more aligned 472 00:21:32,480 - > 00:21:34,160 or to gain that confidence. 473 00:21:34,319 - > 00:21:37,200 And once you can get that equation right, all of the other 474 00:21:37,200 - > 00:21:40,240 things are important, but they get much easier because you've 475 00:21:40,240 - > 00:21:42,640 got the right context to be able to get that support that you 476 00:21:42,640 - > 00:21:42,880 need. 477 00:21:43,200 - > 00:21:45,920 SPEAKER_01: You know, I think it's a really good tool as well 478 00:21:46,000 - > 00:21:49,279 for like maybe looking back at some decisions that didn't go as 479 00:21:49,279 - > 00:21:52,480 well and kind of trying to map into that alignment and 480 00:21:52,480 - > 00:21:55,599 confidence axes like what was missing, where was I? 481 00:21:55,759 - > 00:21:59,200 And it's such a great tool for all the way from leadership to 482 00:21:59,200 - > 00:21:59,519 junior. 483 00:22:00,160 - > 00:22:03,599 PMs when a meeting didn't go well, what was the gap there? 484 00:22:03,759 - > 00:22:06,240 So I love it from a retrospective perspective as 485 00:22:06,240 - > 00:22:06,400 well. 486 00:22:06,480 - > 00:22:09,279 And I'm gonna go use it myself. 487 00:22:09,519 - > 00:22:12,400 SPEAKER_00: So absolutely, it's a great way to think about it. 488 00:22:12,480 - > 00:22:14,319 And then, you know, that can help you understand very 489 00:22:14,319 - > 00:22:17,200 specifically where I should focus on next time, especially 490 00:22:17,200 - > 00:22:18,640 if you're engaging with that same person. 491 00:22:19,039 - > 00:22:20,400 SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely. 492 00:22:20,640 - > 00:22:24,799 So I want to ask you, you you moved from TripAdvisor to 493 00:22:25,039 - > 00:22:25,599 Tinder. 494 00:22:26,160 - > 00:22:31,119 And such a, you know, I'm so I'm like, okay, that's very 495 00:22:31,200 - > 00:22:31,440 different. 496 00:22:31,599 - > 00:22:32,799 That's a little different. 497 00:22:33,440 - > 00:22:37,119 I guess you're still helping people achieve some goals. 498 00:22:37,680 - > 00:22:41,519 But tell us, tell us a little bit about um what that 499 00:22:41,519 - > 00:22:43,920 transition was like, very fast growing. 500 00:22:44,079 - > 00:22:46,319 What did you take from TripAdvisor? 501 00:22:46,400 - > 00:22:50,240 What really stuck when you went from this very specific industry 502 00:22:50,240 - > 00:22:51,680 to a very different one? 503 00:22:51,920 - > 00:22:54,640 And what did you find yourself having to do completely 504 00:22:54,640 - > 00:22:55,200 differently? 505 00:22:55,279 - > 00:22:58,960 Um with this type of, you know, still consumer, but with a very 506 00:22:58,960 - > 00:23:01,200 different um set of outcomes that you're trying to achieve. 507 00:23:01,440 - > 00:23:03,039 SPEAKER_00: So what's interesting is that there's a a 508 00:23:03,039 - > 00:23:05,119 lot more similarities than you would expect. 509 00:23:05,279 - > 00:23:08,240 So a key part of TripAdvisor is recommendations. 510 00:23:08,400 - > 00:23:11,200 When someone comes to the product, how do you recommend 511 00:23:11,200 - > 00:23:14,559 the right places for them to travel to, the right places to 512 00:23:14,720 - > 00:23:15,119 book? 513 00:23:15,359 - > 00:23:18,559 Tinder, the core thing is how do you recommend the right person, 514 00:23:18,720 - > 00:23:22,000 people for that particular person to see so that they can 515 00:23:22,000 - > 00:23:24,400 decide whether to swipe right or swipe left. 516 00:23:24,559 - > 00:23:27,680 Another thing is user-generated content is the heart of both 517 00:23:27,680 - > 00:23:28,319 experiences. 518 00:23:28,400 - > 00:23:31,359 And Tinder, it's the profile, and in TripAdvisor, it's the 519 00:23:31,359 - > 00:23:31,839 reviews. 520 00:23:31,920 - > 00:23:35,119 And I think that that is that's one of the things that gets me 521 00:23:35,119 - > 00:23:38,720 very excited about different products that are all around 522 00:23:38,880 - > 00:23:42,240 consumer, because I think that they often share more than 523 00:23:42,240 - > 00:23:43,599 people recognize. 524 00:23:43,759 - > 00:23:46,000 Because as people, you know, we're all similar, right? 525 00:23:46,079 - > 00:23:48,000 There's an underlying psychology, there's underlying 526 00:23:48,000 - > 00:23:51,519 behavior, underlying utility and value that we're driving for 527 00:23:51,519 - > 00:23:52,559 within our lives. 528 00:23:52,640 - > 00:23:56,079 And as product experts, I think we can learn a lot by not just 529 00:23:56,079 - > 00:23:59,920 looking at what are the products in our domain that are doing 530 00:23:59,920 - > 00:24:03,680 really well, but going outside our domain and getting inspired 531 00:24:03,680 - > 00:24:04,079 by that. 532 00:24:04,240 - > 00:24:08,559 And so that was a one I was just really excited and interested in 533 00:24:08,720 - > 00:24:11,279 you know, how do you think about what the next generation of 534 00:24:11,279 - > 00:24:13,279 social discovery and dating looks like? 535 00:24:13,519 - > 00:24:16,960 A lot of you know how younger people interact and how they 536 00:24:16,960 - > 00:24:19,279 meet each other is changing due to social media. 537 00:24:19,519 - > 00:24:21,440 Tinder was one step in that direction. 538 00:24:21,599 - > 00:24:23,440 I think there's going to continue to be different 539 00:24:23,440 - > 00:24:23,920 changes. 540 00:24:24,079 - > 00:24:25,920 So big important problem. 541 00:24:26,240 - > 00:24:30,480 And then consumer products at scale often share some really 542 00:24:30,480 - > 00:24:33,119 important elements where you know, if you can map kind of one 543 00:24:33,119 - > 00:24:35,759 domain to another, you can get to some interesting ways of 544 00:24:35,759 - > 00:24:36,480 thinking about things. 545 00:24:36,559 - > 00:24:39,839 So those are a couple of things that excited me about the 546 00:24:39,839 - > 00:24:41,440 opportunity at Tinder. 547 00:24:41,680 - > 00:24:45,119 I think in terms of you know things that were that were 548 00:24:45,119 - > 00:24:48,160 really different, is you know, ultimately the goal at 549 00:24:48,160 - > 00:24:52,319 TripAdvisor is for someone to plan a trip and book their 550 00:24:52,319 - > 00:24:52,640 travel. 551 00:24:52,799 - > 00:24:54,960 And so it's not a social, social goal. 552 00:24:55,039 - > 00:24:58,400 It's actually a transactional commerce goal where ultimately 553 00:24:58,480 - > 00:25:03,039 the important thing at Tinder is people matching with each other, 554 00:25:03,200 - > 00:25:05,680 getting into interesting conversations and eventually 555 00:25:05,680 - > 00:25:06,720 meeting and dating. 556 00:25:06,799 - > 00:25:10,160 And so it's important to think about those value functions 557 00:25:10,160 - > 00:25:10,799 differently. 558 00:25:10,960 - > 00:25:15,359 And the process of helping a person make a travel decision 559 00:25:15,359 - > 00:25:18,880 are really different than the process of helping a person get 560 00:25:18,880 - > 00:25:20,799 into an interesting conversation. 561 00:25:20,880 - > 00:25:22,960 And so, you know, those are a couple of things that were 562 00:25:22,960 - > 00:25:25,039 similar, but a couple of things that were also different. 563 00:25:25,200 - > 00:25:27,519 Happy to dive into more details about that. 564 00:25:27,920 - > 00:25:29,279 SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think that would be great. 565 00:25:29,440 - > 00:25:31,920 One thing, though, that I am observing that I really 566 00:25:31,920 - > 00:25:38,000 appreciate is that the way you transitioned was more so about 567 00:25:38,160 - > 00:25:42,079 how to think about consumer behavior overall and some of the 568 00:25:42,079 - > 00:25:46,799 things you learned about sort of psychology and sitting in the 569 00:25:46,799 - > 00:25:50,960 customer shoes, as opposed to what I think Vinnie and I see a 570 00:25:50,960 - > 00:25:55,359 lot of is trying to translate process from an old company to a 571 00:25:55,359 - > 00:25:57,839 new company and really be thinking about how do I make a 572 00:25:57,839 - > 00:26:00,400 difference in this company by implementing a process that I've 573 00:26:00,400 - > 00:26:01,279 done in the past, right? 574 00:26:01,359 - > 00:26:06,079 That has been successful, as opposed to let's think about the 575 00:26:06,240 - > 00:26:10,000 the customer segment and sitting in the customer shoes as my 576 00:26:10,000 - > 00:26:14,640 first way to think about value and generating value in this 577 00:26:14,640 - > 00:26:16,960 role that I'm in, my new role that I'm in, right? 578 00:26:17,039 - > 00:26:20,160 It's you're first going to the customer as opposed to process, 579 00:26:20,240 - > 00:26:22,720 which I think is refreshing in a lot of ways. 580 00:26:22,960 - > 00:26:24,480 So I really appreciate that. 581 00:26:24,720 - > 00:26:29,039 One thing we always like to ask of product leaders that come on 582 00:26:29,039 - > 00:26:33,440 the show is to talk a little bit about maybe one lesson learned, 583 00:26:33,599 - > 00:26:33,759 right? 584 00:26:33,920 - > 00:26:38,319 Something that you, you know, man, if I were to change that or 585 00:26:38,319 - > 00:26:41,039 do that again, I'd probably do it differently. 586 00:26:41,279 - > 00:26:44,400 I'd love to just hear of a lesson learned that maybe others 587 00:26:44,400 - > 00:26:45,759 can learn from you. 588 00:26:46,160 - > 00:26:48,319 SPEAKER_00: So one of the things I did before I started at Tinder 589 00:26:48,400 - > 00:26:52,240 was I talked to a relationship therapist who worked with a lot 590 00:26:52,240 - > 00:26:57,359 of people who were in their late 20s to early 30s. 591 00:26:57,519 - > 00:27:00,880 And a lot of what they wanted counseling on and guidance on 592 00:27:00,880 - > 00:27:02,400 was how to meet the right person. 593 00:27:02,480 - > 00:27:05,759 And so what was interesting about that set of conversations 594 00:27:05,759 - > 00:27:08,480 with that relationship therapist was I got to hear sort of what 595 00:27:08,480 - > 00:27:12,400 are the symptoms of dating and dating apps when they don't 596 00:27:12,400 - > 00:27:12,640 work. 597 00:27:12,799 - > 00:27:15,920 And one of the things that he talked a lot about was burnout. 598 00:27:16,160 - > 00:27:20,240 And so he said, look, a lot of people go in, they want to meet 599 00:27:20,240 - > 00:27:23,440 someone, they go in with a head full of steam, they get you know 600 00:27:23,599 - > 00:27:26,799 profile set up on all the dating apps, and then they spend hours 601 00:27:26,799 - > 00:27:27,839 a day swiping. 602 00:27:28,000 - > 00:27:30,720 And two weeks later, after a couple of dates and a lot of 603 00:27:30,720 - > 00:27:33,599 conversations, they're exhausted because they feel like they 604 00:27:33,599 - > 00:27:37,759 didn't necessarily get the value out of that time spent. 605 00:27:37,839 - > 00:27:40,000 And so I went into the Tinder uh role. 606 00:27:40,400 - > 00:27:41,920 SPEAKER_02: I'm one of those, by the way. 607 00:27:42,559 - > 00:27:43,680 SPEAKER_00: It's an incredibly challenging. 608 00:27:44,160 - > 00:27:46,160 SPEAKER_02: I did meet my husband online, so that's pretty 609 00:27:46,400 - > 00:27:47,759 I'm pretty shocked that I did that. 610 00:27:47,839 - > 00:27:50,880 But yes, I I'm I'm listening and I'm nodding with everything 611 00:27:50,880 - > 00:27:52,079 you're saying right now. 612 00:27:52,799 - > 00:27:54,559 SPEAKER_00: And so what's interesting about that is people 613 00:27:54,559 - > 00:27:57,119 take breaks, they get burnt out and they have to come back to 614 00:27:57,119 - > 00:27:57,279 it. 615 00:27:57,359 - > 00:28:00,000 And a lot of times it works for folks, but it works for folks 616 00:28:00,000 - > 00:28:01,519 after a couple of bat bats. 617 00:28:01,680 - > 00:28:04,240 Like you've got to like kind of go back and forth. 618 00:28:04,480 - > 00:28:07,119 And what's interesting is like going into the role, I had that 619 00:28:07,119 - > 00:28:07,680 perspective. 620 00:28:07,759 - > 00:28:09,200 You know, it was a very incomplete perspective. 621 00:28:09,279 - > 00:28:11,680 It was just based on a couple of conversations, and the team 622 00:28:11,680 - > 00:28:14,880 there had done a lot more detailed analysis. 623 00:28:15,119 - > 00:28:18,000 And I looked for like, you know, are there signs of this in the 624 00:28:18,000 - > 00:28:18,240 data? 625 00:28:18,319 - > 00:28:21,440 And there are, you know, dating apps have very high churn rates 626 00:28:21,440 - > 00:28:24,480 for social products, you know, relative to you know Facebook 627 00:28:24,480 - > 00:28:28,480 and Snap and others, the churn rates are you know incredibly 628 00:28:28,480 - > 00:28:28,880 low. 629 00:28:29,119 - > 00:28:31,599 Naturally, the churn rates are going to be higher for dating 630 00:28:31,599 - > 00:28:33,839 products because once a person finds someone, they don't need 631 00:28:33,839 - > 00:28:35,279 to use the product anymore. 632 00:28:35,359 - > 00:28:38,559 But what's interesting is once you start to zoom into those 633 00:28:38,559 - > 00:28:41,039 churn rates, you see that actually the majority of churn 634 00:28:41,279 - > 00:28:43,680 is not people that have been successful in finding someone 635 00:28:43,680 - > 00:28:45,119 and don't need the product anymore. 636 00:28:45,279 - > 00:28:47,680 It's more people that are burning out and need to need to 637 00:28:47,680 - > 00:28:48,160 take a break. 638 00:28:48,240 - > 00:28:51,359 And so one of the key things that I focused on when I got to 639 00:28:51,359 - > 00:28:54,160 Tinder is how do we create a more retentive experience? 640 00:28:54,319 - > 00:28:57,759 What are the things that we can do in order to help with that 641 00:28:57,759 - > 00:29:01,359 burnout and give people reasons to stay in the product when they 642 00:29:01,359 - > 00:29:04,400 weren't necessarily making the progress that they wanted to on 643 00:29:04,400 - > 00:29:06,160 that use case around dating? 644 00:29:06,240 - > 00:29:08,559 Because it does take time to find the right person. 645 00:29:08,640 - > 00:29:11,279 And we did some really interesting strategy work, made 646 00:29:11,279 - > 00:29:13,920 some, I think, significant progress in terms of defining 647 00:29:13,920 - > 00:29:15,200 what the North Star was. 648 00:29:15,359 - > 00:29:18,000 And I think the thing to answer the question that I would have 649 00:29:18,000 - > 00:29:22,880 done differently is it was actually hard to get the 650 00:29:22,880 - > 00:29:25,680 organization aligned around that because there was such a 651 00:29:25,680 - > 00:29:30,240 specific way that Tinder worked that any changes to that was 652 00:29:30,240 - > 00:29:33,440 naturally going to lead to some decrease in key metrics. 653 00:29:33,599 - > 00:29:36,960 Anything that you did to get into the get in the way of the 654 00:29:36,960 - > 00:29:41,440 core flywheel around swiping, matching, talking was 655 00:29:41,440 - > 00:29:46,000 necessarily going to reflect itself in key product metrics, 656 00:29:46,079 - > 00:29:48,319 but was something that I felt like was important to think 657 00:29:48,319 - > 00:29:49,680 about, you know, what is the long term? 658 00:29:49,759 - > 00:29:53,839 So it goes back to the start of the conversation around, you 659 00:29:53,839 - > 00:29:57,440 know, are we solving internally for the metrics that our 660 00:29:57,440 - > 00:29:59,759 business cares about, which might be things around revenue 661 00:29:59,759 - > 00:30:02,640 or things about engagement that we know drives revenue, versus 662 00:30:02,720 - > 00:30:04,559 are we focusing on the fundamentals of the customer? 663 00:30:04,720 - > 00:30:07,359 And the customers are constantly evolving, in part, especially 664 00:30:07,359 - > 00:30:09,440 for successful products, in part because they're using our 665 00:30:09,440 - > 00:30:12,240 product and they've been so successful with it. 666 00:30:12,480 - > 00:30:14,720 And so I think, you know, looking back, you know, I 667 00:30:14,720 - > 00:30:17,759 probably could have done a better job of understanding how 668 00:30:17,759 - > 00:30:21,920 to build more alignment around that idea that it's important to 669 00:30:21,920 - > 00:30:24,799 think about the value that we're creating differently and that, 670 00:30:24,880 - > 00:30:27,920 you know, the shortest possible engagement from a person 671 00:30:27,920 - > 00:30:30,880 arriving, swiping, matching, and chatting is not necessarily the 672 00:30:30,880 - > 00:30:34,240 thing that creates long-term retention and creates a sort of 673 00:30:34,240 - > 00:30:36,720 experience that people don't get burnt out from. 674 00:30:36,960 - > 00:30:39,440 And so that was something that got me to reflect on this idea 675 00:30:39,440 - > 00:30:42,960 of alignment and confidence and how to really think about 676 00:30:42,960 - > 00:30:46,319 navigating that map when you're trying to advocate for change 677 00:30:46,319 - > 00:30:47,680 within the organization. 678 00:30:47,759 - > 00:30:50,160 And so, you know, reflecting on my time at Tinder, I think that 679 00:30:50,160 - > 00:30:51,359 that's something that I could have done better. 680 00:30:51,599 - > 00:30:52,559 SPEAKER_01: I think that's so interesting. 681 00:30:52,720 - > 00:30:56,640 I love that that that's how you evolved that axes because I 682 00:30:56,640 - > 00:30:57,599 think it's so true. 683 00:30:57,920 - > 00:31:00,160 Like, what can I have done differently, even if you're 684 00:31:00,160 - > 00:31:00,799 successful? 685 00:31:00,960 - > 00:31:05,200 Which one of these axes do I lean on to go faster or be more 686 00:31:05,200 - > 00:31:05,839 effective? 687 00:31:06,160 - > 00:31:09,680 And there's something else that you've talked about before that 688 00:31:09,680 - > 00:31:13,440 I also think is is so important, and you've talked about customer 689 00:31:13,440 - > 00:31:17,359 all the way through this, and that is in terms of persuasion 690 00:31:17,599 - > 00:31:20,480 and in terms of getting people on the same page. 691 00:31:20,720 - > 00:31:24,000 And, you know, one of the things that Heather and I often talk 692 00:31:24,000 - > 00:31:26,480 about is make customer the center. 693 00:31:26,640 - > 00:31:28,400 And I love the way that you've talked about that. 694 00:31:28,559 - > 00:31:31,519 I would love for you to share sort of how you bring and make 695 00:31:31,599 - > 00:31:34,480 customer the the center of those conversations and those 696 00:31:34,480 - > 00:31:35,119 decisions. 697 00:31:35,440 - > 00:31:38,240 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so one hack that I found that works really 698 00:31:38,240 - > 00:31:41,920 well is product teams will do user research and then they 699 00:31:41,920 - > 00:31:44,640 share that user research typically in like a hundred 700 00:31:44,880 - > 00:31:45,680 slide deck, right? 701 00:31:45,759 - > 00:31:48,240 They want to capture every single element of that user 702 00:31:48,240 - > 00:31:48,559 research. 703 00:31:48,720 - > 00:31:51,039 There was, we asked 30 questions, here's all the things 704 00:31:51,039 - > 00:31:51,359 that we got. 705 00:31:51,440 - > 00:31:56,480 Here's all that we have and you know, 50 comments we got. 706 00:31:58,000 - > 00:32:00,799 And so you have a hundred, you know, you have a hundred slides, 707 00:32:00,880 - > 00:32:03,519 and then you've got like all of these comments, you've got all 708 00:32:03,519 - > 00:32:06,880 of these different cuts and segmentation of the data. 709 00:32:07,039 - > 00:32:10,400 And then, you know, the team might do a big readout of that 710 00:32:10,400 - > 00:32:12,400 data, and then everyone forgets. 711 00:32:12,480 - > 00:32:14,720 It kind of fades into the the background. 712 00:32:14,880 - > 00:32:17,440 And the thing that I found that's a really good hack for 713 00:32:17,440 - > 00:32:21,440 that is to record the customer sessions and put together a 714 00:32:21,440 - > 00:32:22,640 really quick highlight reel. 715 00:32:22,960 - > 00:32:27,599 So one to two minutes long of the best quotes from customers 716 00:32:27,759 - > 00:32:30,400 and start with that and share that and get everyone in the 717 00:32:30,400 - > 00:32:31,759 company to watch that. 718 00:32:31,920 - > 00:32:34,720 Show that at your company meetings or in your product 719 00:32:34,960 - > 00:32:35,759 product meetings. 720 00:32:35,920 - > 00:32:37,599 It doesn't take a lot of time. 721 00:32:37,759 - > 00:32:40,640 And seeing the faces of customers, talking in their own 722 00:32:40,640 - > 00:32:43,759 words about how they're experiencing the product is 723 00:32:43,759 - > 00:32:47,359 often like a complete unlock for people, especially within large 724 00:32:47,359 - > 00:32:50,480 organizations where you haven't had the chance to be face to 725 00:32:50,559 - > 00:32:53,039 face with a customer in a long time. 726 00:32:53,359 - > 00:32:57,119 And in that way, the nice thing there is when you're debating a 727 00:32:57,119 - > 00:33:01,039 topic, it's less about my opinion versus your opinion. 728 00:33:01,200 - > 00:33:03,680 It's more about what is the customer's opinion? 729 00:33:03,759 - > 00:33:05,279 What is the customer's perspective? 730 00:33:05,440 - > 00:33:07,680 And it's much harder for executives to argue with 731 00:33:07,680 - > 00:33:10,079 customers than it is for executives to argue with the 732 00:33:10,079 - > 00:33:11,359 product managers on their team. 733 00:33:11,839 - > 00:33:12,559 SPEAKER_02: Absolutely. 734 00:33:12,880 - > 00:33:14,079 We love that. 735 00:33:14,400 - > 00:33:15,359 Well, there you have it. 736 00:33:15,440 - > 00:33:18,799 There's the best rebel hack you could possibly imagine is 737 00:33:18,799 - > 00:33:21,599 bringing the customer into the room, some way, shape, or form. 738 00:33:21,680 - > 00:33:23,279 And how easy is that, right? 739 00:33:23,519 - > 00:33:26,799 And oftentimes I think we overlook how easy that is. 740 00:33:26,880 - > 00:33:29,039 And so wonderful advice. 741 00:33:29,279 - > 00:33:30,640 Robbie, thank you so much. 742 00:33:30,799 - > 00:33:34,319 I uh what can we promote for you these days? 743 00:33:34,640 - > 00:33:36,960 We know you've gotten a new, you've started this new 744 00:33:36,960 - > 00:33:38,480 endeavor, which I think is really interesting. 745 00:33:38,640 - > 00:33:40,960 I went out there today just to take a look. 746 00:33:41,200 - > 00:33:42,240 Talk a little bit about it. 747 00:33:42,480 - > 00:33:43,279 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely. 748 00:33:43,440 - > 00:33:46,480 So we recently launched the new version of Outpace. 749 00:33:46,640 - > 00:33:48,960 So a couple of years ago, I started a company called Outpace 750 00:33:49,200 - > 00:33:52,400 focused on helping to democratize access to one-on-one 751 00:33:52,559 - > 00:33:53,200 coaching. 752 00:33:53,519 - > 00:33:57,359 One of the things that we found as we were building Outpace was 753 00:33:57,359 - > 00:33:59,759 that we were working with generative AI to help make 754 00:33:59,759 - > 00:34:00,880 coaches more efficient. 755 00:34:00,960 - > 00:34:03,359 And we found that that technology had gotten to a point 756 00:34:03,359 - > 00:34:06,880 where you could actually create a completely AI-based coaching 757 00:34:06,880 - > 00:34:09,840 experience and have that, you know, not be as good as a live 758 00:34:09,840 - > 00:34:10,079 coach. 759 00:34:10,159 - > 00:34:12,719 Like there's certain things that live coaches can do that AI 760 00:34:12,719 - > 00:34:16,320 can't, but for orders of magnitude less in terms of cost, 761 00:34:16,480 - > 00:34:18,320 you can get an experience that starts to approach that. 762 00:34:18,480 - > 00:34:22,159 And so we launched about six weeks ago our Outpace AI 763 00:34:22,159 - > 00:34:24,960 product, which is an AI coaching experience specifically for 764 00:34:25,199 - > 00:34:26,480 product managers and product leaders. 765 00:34:26,559 - > 00:34:29,440 Our first program is called Leveling Up as a Product Leader. 766 00:34:29,519 - > 00:34:32,800 It consists of 25 different AI guided sessions. 767 00:34:32,960 - > 00:34:37,119 Each session has 10 or 15 minutes of audio on key topics 768 00:34:37,119 - > 00:34:40,320 like prioritization, road mapping, strategic thinking. 769 00:34:40,559 - > 00:34:42,960 You go through those sessions, you answer some hands-on 770 00:34:43,119 - > 00:34:46,079 exercises, and then you can work with an AI coach to really 771 00:34:46,079 - > 00:34:48,719 refine, refine things and get some hands-on feedback. 772 00:34:48,800 - > 00:34:51,440 And it's pretty remarkable what's possible with generative 773 00:34:51,440 - > 00:34:52,079 AI today. 774 00:34:52,159 - > 00:34:54,400 So we'd love people to check that out. 775 00:34:54,480 - > 00:34:56,400 And if you have any questions about it, you know, feel free to 776 00:34:56,400 - > 00:34:56,800 reach out to me. 777 00:34:56,880 - > 00:34:58,239 I'm pretty accessible on LinkedIn. 778 00:34:58,400 - > 00:35:02,000 I also, um you can reach me on my site at uh ravi-meta.com. 779 00:35:02,239 - > 00:35:03,280 SPEAKER_01: That's so fabulous. 780 00:35:03,440 - > 00:35:06,480 Unless you put us out of a job, in which case, you know, we're 781 00:35:06,480 - > 00:35:08,719 gonna be with those actors on strike right now. 782 00:35:11,440 - > 00:35:12,239 It's okay. 783 00:35:12,400 - > 00:35:13,599 We're we're good. 784 00:35:13,760 - > 00:35:16,639 Um Ravi, we just the time's flown by. 785 00:35:16,719 - > 00:35:18,880 Um, this has been such a fantastic conversation. 786 00:35:19,039 - > 00:35:20,320 We so appreciate this. 787 00:35:20,480 - > 00:35:22,000 We could speak for hours with you. 788 00:35:22,400 - > 00:35:23,599 Um, this is wonderful. 789 00:35:23,760 - > 00:35:25,760 Thank you so much for being with us today. 790 00:35:26,000 - > 00:35:26,480 Thanks, Ravi. 791 00:35:26,880 - > 00:35:27,679 SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me. 792 00:35:27,760 - > 00:35:29,199 I really enjoyed the conversation. 793 00:35:36,159 - > 00:35:38,480 SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Product 794 00:35:38,480 - > 00:35:39,519 Rebels Podcast. 795 00:35:39,679 - > 00:35:41,679 SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed this conversation and want to learn 796 00:35:41,679 - > 00:35:44,320 more from Product Rebels from companies like Netflix, 797 00:35:44,480 - > 00:35:47,920 Amplitude, and beyond, please follow us wherever you listen to 798 00:35:47,920 - > 00:35:51,199 podcasts and join us for another impactful interview in about two 799 00:35:51,199 - > 00:35:51,760 weeks.