Episode 074: Pablo Martin, Packsize

Rich Mullen: Welcome to the Economics and Strategy podcast where business plans and market behavior intersect. I'm your host, Rich Mullen. This podcast is brought to you by the Business Strategy and Decision making program at DePaul University's Department of Economics. Pablo Martin is an engineer through and through who after a few career years, decided he needed an MBA to know more about the business side of his work. After a short search, he found DePaul and the business Strategy and Decision Making program and hasn't looked back since. Since completing his mba, he's been fortunate enough to find the perfect role at the perfect company and at exactly the right time. He works at the very interesting firm Packsize as senior manager of Solutions Engineering. Packsize has a great business model and an even better story behind them. Pablo's good fortune is the result of deciding to better himself. A, uh, very good decision by a manager and really great timing for the company itself. Give it a listen. Pablo Martin, welcome to the Economics and Strategy podcast.

Pablo Martin: Thank you so much for the invitation, Rich. It's uh, an honor to be here. I do gotta tell you, it's my first time actually in a podcast, so I honestly thought my first time would be, uh, in Spanish since it is my native language. But here we are. So if my English is not as good looking as my Spanish, I'll trust the ideas to the job.

Rich Mullen: So you won't be able to say it's your first time doing a podcast after this next kind uh, of 40 minutes or so. You will have done it and you will have done it well, I'm certain of it. So welcome for our audience. Pablo is a business strategy and Decision making alum, MBA alum from 2016. Pablo currently works at a very, very interesting company called Packsize and is senior manager at Strategic Solutions Engineering, which is sort of a pre sales role. Is that right?

Pablo Martin: Yeah, we were at the intersection of sales, customer facing operations and I like to say that our team is responsible for the technical win.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, well you interface with clients too, which is, you know, an important role. Everybody, everybody's a little afraid when they're bringing in new technology, right?

Pablo Martin: Uh, yes. And um, that's the day to day part of how to manage change. How to convince people that our technology is good for business is, that's part of the day to day.

Rich Mullen: Yeah. So we're going to get to all that as we kind of wind our way through this. But uh, let's start with if you can give us a little bit about where you're from, your background, kind of the backstory. Let's call it. And then we'll wind our way to where you are now. Does that sound good?

Pablo Martin: Perfect. Yeah. So I'm originally from Mexico City. I didn't live there until I was 18 years or so when I did my undergrad because of my dad's job. We move around Mexico and we live in different cities, but ended up, uh, in Mexico City. And after that, I've lived in the US for about 13 years now. First in Chicago, then Miami, currently in Dallas. What else about me? I'm a big soccer fan. Um, I like running, traveling.

Rich Mullen: No wonder you and Rafael get along so well.

Pablo Martin: Yeah. Uh, but that's when time allows, you know, um, when it doesn't, which is most of the days. Um, my toddler keeps me more than busy. So that's, that's my, that's kind of my background and my, my hobbies. Um, yeah, yeah. So you said about school. Undergrad.

Rich Mullen: Well, let me ask a little bit about. I don't want to butcher the pronunciation of your undergrad school. Can you tell us that? And you pursued engineering, correct?

Pablo Martin: Um, so I did industrial engineering as my undergrad. And yeah, I chose it because it's hard at 18 to choose your life path. Even today is difficult. So industrial engineering, I thought it was a, uh, wise choice because it was very broad. So it can give you different perspectives from the engineering side and engineering. I like math, I like numbers, I like solving puzzles. So it was kind of a perfect mix for me. Later on, as I went through the undergrad, I focused on some topics I found, for example, supply chain and operations. That resonated with me and I tried to focus my career in, in those topics and that's how I started my career.

Rich Mullen: How did you, you started your career where?

Pablo Martin: Uh, I was a pre sales consultant at Oracle. So I was about to, to finish my undergrad and this opportunity at Oracle came up. Um, it was pre sales for supply chain, all that supply chain offer. So it was a good way to start my career. Yeah, um, was a great company, great entry point, perfect combo to start it.

Rich Mullen: And then your next role was at a company, uh, called Meback, Correct?

Pablo Martin: Meback Consulting. So MIBA is a, uh, a niche consulting firm that specializes in supply chain. So during my time at Oracle, I also wanted to try consulting. This opportunity came up and yeah, why not? It was starting my career, so I wanted to explore that, that side. Honestly, MIBA was a very, very good school for me. I was exposed to different, different challenges. I got to design warehouses from the initial concept all the way to the go live.

Rich Mullen: Oh, is that right?

Pablo Martin: I was, yeah. Like, the customer will come up and say, like, I have these three small warehouses. Should I stay there? And if I stay there, what, how should I optimize them? Or should I go look for a new location? And if that's the answer, like, how big, what should I have inside and where should that be? So it was really interesting to go through all that process with them. And it would take a few months until you see that go live and you see the building going live at its core.

Rich Mullen: Correct me if I'm wrong, but at its core, solving that problem of location and how many locations is a math problem, is it not?

Pablo Martin: Yeah, all like, where it is. It's a math location. What do you want inside? It's my location. Like, what's the optimal process inside the warehouse is a, uh, is a math look like it's a math problem. So, yeah, perfect alignment with my undergrad.

Rich Mullen: Right. So those first two roles, all in supply chain, although you really ramped it up with mebok. What were your biggest takeaways? What did you learn most at that time?

Pablo Martin: I think both in different ways, pushed me out of my comfort zone, especially the time at Maybach. I was forced to do a lot, or you learn to do a lot with less. And you also jump from industry to industry and direct. Like you are having a meeting with a person that has way more experience, way more years in that company, and you are trying to solve for, for his problems, which that's the challenge how to be that trusted advisor and bring that value to them.

Rich Mullen: That's a really important to your current role right there. Really important, yes.

Pablo Martin: And I think that was kind of the foundation, and I think I'm convinced that this gave me the opportunity and the foundation later to land that job at Bucks size. Right at, uh, the time I was in my second year at Depot.

Rich Mullen: So now tell us, how did you end up in Chicago?

Pablo Martin: Uh, it's a good question. I ended up in Chicago largely thanks to life and how it takes unexpected turns. So let me go back to 2013. At that time, I was in Miva. I wanted to go back to school, but I also want. I was going to get married. So two big constraints. Uh, so what was more important? That was kind of the big question for me. In 2013, everything accelerated when my then fiance got a huge opportunity, uh, in her career that involved moving to Chicago. So I resigned to Miva. We both moved from Mexico to Chicago. And yeah, it's kind of crazy thinking about that. Or if I would do that right now. But at that moment, it was the first time in a while I gave myself space to pause, focus on the gmat and really think what I wanted next. And um, that's how I ended up in Chicago.

Rich Mullen: That's a good decision for our audience. Uh, I chuckled a little bit when he said, when Pablo said that his wife had an opportunity. The first, first, almost the first thing you said when we started this call before I hit record was happy wife, happy life. So. And you're smiling now.

Pablo Martin: There you go.

Rich Mullen: But you know, it should be noted that that applies to your willingness to move, uh, to Chicago also. Uh, you know, doesn't it?

Pablo Martin: Well, I'm sure he would have done the same. So we are a team. So we saw each other. Yeah, we, we saw each other as a team. And if anyone has a good, ah, opportunity like let's, let's go for it and let's support the other part.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, that's the, you have to give up something to get something and that's, that's a good partnership. So you always knew you wanted to get a graduate degree. Why, why DePaul? How did you end up at DePaul?

Pablo Martin: Um, so I was in Chicago and so I went to different schools. Uh, I remember I went to the interview, uh, at the pool at State and Jackson and walking out of that building, I don't know, something click. I had this feeling that belonging or that something clicked after being there. I would say nothing, nothing concrete, just, just that uh, sense of, of belonging. Yeah. So I were, I wanted to go back to school because I wanted to expand my, my toolkit. I had, I, I thought I had a, a good engineering background and foundation, but I also wanted the, the business side of it. So I wanted to pair both so I could take on bigger and, and more complex problems and also start my career in the US and felt like an investment not just in my role but as a long term career, um, move. So yeah, um, that's what I did. And then now that make me think about that time. Um, I ended up with a full combo because I did both, right? I did school, I got the wife. So yeah, it was good time.

Rich Mullen: 2013, I have interviewed over the years I've been doing this a handful, not maybe a full handful, but a handful of engineers who made the same decision you did in the sense that they had the engineering background and they had experience, but they wanted to know more about the overall business and that was the decision behind them going back, uh, to graduate school. It seems to make sense particularly for what you do. If you're fully comfortable with the technical side, where can you get better? And you answered that question right. Is that sort of the mindset?

Pablo Martin: You can have the best solution, but if you don't have a good storytelling and you don't consider the human side of the decision making, you are not going to sell that solution, you're not going to position it and no one is going to adopt it. So you need both I think.

Rich Mullen: When did you first learn of the business strategy and decision making program and what was it about that that you decided to make that part of your concentration?

Pablo Martin: M. During my first year at DePaul there were some programs. Um, this drew my attention. I took with Rafael and it's like yeah, I want to take more classes with him. I want to take more classes around this, uh, around this topic. And um, also I like some of the overall concepts like thinking uh, in terms of games and systems and how decisions create reactions and then that will be a second order effect and then there's a long term consequence for that which I try to link it to, to my life and like how these different directions, like what if I had didn't move to Chicago? What if I stay where I was? What if I didn't take that decision of undergrad or grad graduate school? So uh, that's one of the things I like it and I was curious also like a lot like the why behind the decisions. And uh, I think that also helped me not only uh, the what, but how that why will impact that trade off and the direction of where we're going.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, that leads to very good thinking. If you can think less transactionally and more multi stage really, it really does and that's good. So what are some of the M moments along the way while you were at DePaul that you remember most? Maybe some people. Just a couple of things that you can say about that.

Pablo Martin: Um, well, I think the best part of Depot was the, the cohort, like overall the people I did that first year, my program was for two years that first year doing all classes with, with the same people. That, that was amazing. Wow. We were ah, a really diverse group. Different backgrounds, countries, ages, stages of our careers and just being there. Like I learned a lot um, just from being in that room with, with them and taking all the different classes. Um, I don't know. That was one part. The other one I think is going back to the classroom. It's always something special, some special feeling. Um, the networking events were also Good. I remember one time that we did a Raleigh around Chicago. Felt like an episode of the Amazing Race, going from one place to another. That was also really good. Um, and like with the cohort, for example, I was even lucky to attend two weddings. Oh, really? Yeah. One of them in Chicago, the second one in India. So it was very amazing to do that. Yeah.

Rich Mullen: You know, you hit on. One of the things I like most about DePaul is the diversity. I worked at DePaul long ago. I met my wife while I worked there. She worked there as well. And um, it's been like that forever. It's in their mission statement. That is their, that's their mission is. It's nice to hear. And, and I didn't. When we talked before, I didn't know you were part of the cohort program. That had to be great. Uh, you really get a lot of work done in those when you're with people all the time. Uh, so it's cool.

Pablo Martin: Yeah. It was, um, cohort that we started in, in 2014. I graduated 2016.

Rich Mullen: You said you picked up a lot of skills there. And you mentioned the game theory and the multi stage thinking about backward induction. I heard you sort of kind of peripherally mention that. How do you use those now?

Pablo Martin: Good question. I use them during my personal life and also at work. That, that part of thinking in terms of games, that every. There are different sets of games throughout uh, your life and then that your life is a game itself. There's this, um, author, Simon Sinek, but also I like him a lot. In one of his books he talks about that specifically. So that resonates a lot with me every day. And the second one is that people don't always act rationally and um, making human dynamics central to almost to any decision, again, any personal or any professional decision. So I think these are some of the skills I bring from my time at the board, from my time at the program to my day to day.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, that particular one, that humans are emotional beings and irrational, oftentimes is the one that really does cross over from work to home to wherever. Uh, including my own self examination of myself, by the way. So you've been a pack size for 11 years. Almost 11 years now. Um, how did that role come up?

Pablo Martin: So I was looking for an opportunity. It wasn't easy. Took some persistence. Uh, I thought I had a solid mix of the engineering, uh, and the business foundations and the business skills. Everything I learned from my time at ME and Oracle business goals. But no, it took several applications. And I want to emphasize on that several applications until I had, I, I learned about box size. I, um, went to a trade show. I, I, I saw them and then I, I started looking at, at what they do and I had an interview with Adam, who later on was my first manager at Packsize. Um, it was scaled for 45 minutes, ended up being a two hour interview. It was not even an interview at that point. It was a conversation. When we hung up, uh, I knew something clicked and I'm very grateful because he believed in me and took the chance. And that's part of, I think of the human interaction because sometimes you need someone on the other side of the table to see your potential and um, believe in you as well. So I'm grateful to him. Um, that's how I ended up at uh, Packscise. And at Packscise I was a solutions engineer or sales engineer. The role has evolved throughout the years. I sold the company, um, but basically at the intersection of sales engineering, um, in this case engineering with the product engineers, uh, that will install the machines and the customer itself. So it's a very interesting role that I've been at.

Rich Mullen: You said it was a hard process. Uh, what were the obstacles that you felt like you were encountering along the way? Um, did you know, I think a

Pablo Martin: little bit of everything. Chicago is a strong market. You have a lot of good schools that at some point everyone is applying at the same time. So you have a good pool of students. So there's a lot of competition. Also think that coming from another country that gave me ah, a disadvantage. I had good experience somewhere else. I, I was starting from zero here. So that was also critical. I cannot think of how challenging it is for people right now. People coming from other countries taking this program, trying to apply to positions. If 10 years ago it was hard, I would imagine it's way, way harder today.

Rich Mullen: Oh, unquestionably, yeah, unquestionably. I think you having that 45 minute initial interview turned into two hours. I mean you must have known he was interested because as you say, if it turns into a conversation and you're kind of bouncing off each other in a positive way and conversationally, then by far that's the best way. Because in the end you have to work with people, not machines. Like you said, we're emotional, irrational at times, those sorts of things. But if you know who you're dealing with. So that had to be a good feeling.

Pablo Martin: It was, it was, um, yeah. And that's why I'm very grateful for, for that opportunity and that opportunity turning to yeah. As you said like 11 years already at Pac size.

Rich Mullen: Yeah. That's the proof that of the positive of the decision. Right. Of the validity of that decision is that you've been there 11 years. You clearly you've been successful you through a series of roles to get to where you are now. So uh, that was a very good decision on both parts on yours. And you said Alan was his name Adam? Yep, Adam. Okay, let's talk about pack size and let's start out by which we haven't done describe what pack size does in you know, let's say two sentences or doesn't have to be exactly two sentences but give us a summary what Packsize does.

Pablo Martin: Absolutely. Um, I like to describe pack size as. Remember the last time you ordered something from your preferred online store, it arrived to your house. You order something small and it arrived in a huge, huge box filled of plastic bubbles or even peanuts. Um, do you think there should be a way to do this more efficient? I don't need all these waste and I feel bad because this is all going through to the waste. Right. Yeah. Well that's what Packsey solves. So Packsize help those companies make a uh, box that fits that product perfectly, um, which turns to save material labor a lot of unnecessary shipping costs while making a positive impact to the environment. So it's one of those companies that benefit both the company and the environment.

Rich Mullen: Um, that was really good and I have to ask, did you develop that as I sent you the outline or was that something you use otherwise to describe pack size? Because that was really good.

Pablo Martin: A lot of people have asked me and I always go in a route that is very technical and um, like you said, when my wife listens to me it's like you're over complicating. I didn't understand you and I know what you do. You need to think in an easier way or you need to describe it in an easier way. So yeah, I try to.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, that was really good because um, it really does describe uh, the problem you're solving. And so I'll expand on a little bit. You do this through, you have automation, you have machines that create these, these um, boxes that are custom fit for the whatever being is being shipped. And it's a really cool, really cool outfit. Give us a little the background of it, the history, how it started and what it was when you started there.

Pablo Martin: Yeah. So Paxes is not new. It's a company that was founded 20 plus years ago, um, by a German immigrant, Hanko, that moved from Germany to Salt Lake City. He started. Well, the company started actually in the furniture company. Um, if you go into any company that you're doing furniture, you'll see a lot of people making manual boxes. And it will take a lot of time, a lot of material. It will be really expensive for them. When this technology came in, it was a game changer. So we started there. We then moved to cabinetry and some other industries. Um, when I joined Paxcess in 2015, um, we were already talking about E commerce and the adoption of E commerce practices, um, which was really cool because we were preparing ourselves and putting us in a good position for what was coming next. And that next something started to ship after those first years, but then Covid hit and everyone wanted to move to online and E commerce. We were prepared by then. Uh, it's been an amazing company to work for and it's been growing and Paxes have been investing every year a lot in bringing on new products, new software, new hardware. So it's been great working there.

Rich Mullen: Uh, do you feel yourself lucky there, Pablo?

Pablo Martin: Uh, I am, yeah.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, you'd have to because everything lined up pretty well. Yeah, you should count your lucky stars. It's really, it's a really good thing and it's, it's a good thing for a good guy. By the way. You're a good, you're a good person. You're, you know, and I'm happy for you for your success.

Pablo Martin: Yeah, thank you. And I feel like a lot of the stars align for that and. Yeah, what, what I also find really cool about the company is that everything is about the why. We go back to a few questions you asked me, uh, about uh, the skills in the program and so forth. And PAC size is really about why we are doing this, the how and the what will come after. But why we're doing this is everything is about driving sustainability and making a, uh, positive impact to the environment. So even if there is a good, for example, a good solution that will involve plastic and will save us money. No, because that's not good for the environment. So we are always driven by that. And it's really cool to work in a company that thinks that way.

Rich Mullen: We're going to get to this a little more later. But, uh, there are so many things that cascade from that initial concept of creating specific boxes, custom boxes for each shipment. There's so many efficiencies and savings that cascade from that initial idea that we'll get to, um, that it's amazing to me that, and this idea just there's very little downside. Um, so let me ask it first before we go any further. Your current title is senior manager for strategic solutions engineering. What is strategic solutions engineering?

Pablo Martin: So I lead a team that designed the right automation solutions for our customers. And um, that starts with the customer story, how their operation works today. And we look into ways to see how packsize can fit that operation. Depends also on how they envision that operation to go. Uh, we're a mix of consultants and engineers going into the customers and saying this is okay, you are here, we can take you over here. With pack size, it'll start. It might look it's just a box because at the end we do boxes or we have the technology to do boxes. But it touches, as you said, a lot of things in the supply chain and the operation that sometimes is overlooked.

Rich Mullen: I've interviewed, like I said, I've interviewed a lot of people in uh, my time doing this job. You are in the absolute perfect role for what you know and what you like and, and your work history. You're in the perfect role. It's great. And you're with a company that's going to be growing probably for a while. It's a neat thing. Can you give us a um, example or maybe some anonymized case study of your. The work you just described how you build a solution for a problem that your client describes.

Pablo Martin: Yes, let me, let me think about that one. One of my first projects, for example was with these big company. They have all the bulky and the big and bulky stuff. Uh, like they will have things that would normally don't fit in their boxes or they will take three to five minutes even to pack them. And they don't have dimensions for each of them because they will manage a lot. And dimension is a very important part of what we need. Because if you think of every item would need a dimension. And then with those dimensions you can know the size of the box that you need. But in this case they won't have it. And they say we want, we won't get it to you. We have so many items. It will be possible for us. So we ended up having a machine that will make them boxes in a matter of 15 seconds. And we're not going from the three to five minutes to 15 seconds. Just by doing that they reduce a lot their damages because a lot of these were returned because of damages. They were also avoiding a lot of unnecessary charges from careers. So a career will charge you if you don't have uh, a box sometimes. Because if you have Irregular items, they will charge you for dimensional charges. So they avoided all those costs. The turnover was reduced to because it was easier to train people instead of showing them how to build boxes manually with the gutter and so forth. Just like go into the screen, select the box, print it, and that's it. Um, and that's on top of reducing the footprint they needed and reducing a lot of the complexity they had in their operation.

Rich Mullen: That was a good story. And what it does, it at least starts to tease towards all these things that I mentioned. That cascade from that initial idea about how PacSize can offer um, a variety of efficiencies. Let's talk about that specifically. Talk about the value that PacSize creates for the clients, but do it specifically in the areas that you and I have talked about in where the savings come from. Not necessarily specific monetary savings, but all of the efficiencies that happen that come from that initial idea now and then. Also talk about the scope of, you know, your services because right now we're just talking about a machine that makes custom boxes. Talk a little bit about, about the scope upstream and downstream from that. Take us through it.

Pablo Martin: So maybe we can go through an example. Um, let's say you, you have your company, you have the dimensions of your items and then you want to ship out your orders. And um, first off you need to play Tetris to understand what's going to be the optimal box size to use in a normal operation. You wouldn't be able to, to have more than seven, 10 box sizes. And that's a lot, let's say seven box sizes. So you will fit that order into one of these seven sizes. You will place those products in, you will fill it with a lot of plastic or paper, but fuel, you will close it. Then you will add a label. And that's one of the best scenarios with backside. You already know what's that box size. So we can produce that, the box in advance for the, for the picker, for example, to place that item into that box instead of uh, for example placing it into a tote. And then add another part of the operation where you remove from the tote to the carton. So you put it inside the carton, you push it out the garden, it's already level because you know the, all the items that are gonna are there. You have everything for that order. So you can put apply automatically the shipping label and that's it. You don't touch it again. So it goes downstream. So you're already safe in material in what Field in labor it goes out. You're, you're saving in shipping savings or you're, you're ah that all the shipping saving which are a uh, lot or for a company because it is in a right size box, most likely you will have the same amount of damage that you will have with an item that is shaking even if you have all this protection around it. So you have a better customer experience, a better brand experience and along the way you are impacting possibly to the environment. So and also you avoid all the returns so no one wants to take all those returns. It's a very hard operation. So you are avoiding that part. So multiple things you can touch and it was just by creating the right size box.

Rich Mullen: So I'm going to kind of um, summarize uh that as far as what I was seeing you're saving space in a truck. So that's the kind of the further downstream you're saving space in your warehouse because you don't have to store all the uh, all those different boxes. You're saving time by not having to figure out what the box is and all the rest of that um, the um. But I believe also you're saving essentially you're saving warehouse space too, right?

Pablo Martin: Yes, you are saving that warehouse because you still need footprint uh, for a machine but you'll use less footprint than if you store those boxes because you still need to order those boxes in huge quantities to make it worth to buy them.

Rich Mullen: And how far upstream does pack size go? You said they have software packages. Give us what those software packages are and kind of how they integrate with other systems.

Pablo Martin: Yeah, and that's part of the role of a uh, solutions engineer for example like understand how how wide of a scope is going to be our uh part in, in that operation. So we can integrate with their wms, with their warehouse management system or ERP or however they want to send those orders. Um, sometimes they will send us the order. We will do the cartoonization which is what is the perfect box that you need. And the cartoonization is this Tetris that we need to play and um, kind of find a way to position the products in the best and most optimal way. Well we can send this over back or they can even take that information brick shop it or to have a shipping label and that information is sent over to packsize. So at that time we can print a uh, right size box unique for that order with a unique label. Again that reduces a lot of the touches and complexity that you will need and a lot of material handling Equipment that you might need to add uh, to a standard warehouse.

Rich Mullen: Uh, first of all, to our audience, I strongly encourage you to go to the packscast website and look at some of the videos because it's hard to really give you a good idea of exactly how significant this technology is and how, how much it can do until you see some of these videos. That said, as I was watching one of those videos, I saw amongst the machines that you guys have, I saw one that does this just the box creation based on the scanning or the dimensions of the products that are going into it. And it just creates one box. The items are put into that box. There's another machine where the items are picked raw, they run on a conveyor belt and the box is built around them. Tell me the difference between those two things.

Pablo Martin: It, it depends on the operation on, on how you can do how the picking is done. There are some constraints and um, there is trade off between both. But if you are picking into a box, we can build a box right for it and then uh, an operator will place an item or a set of items inside that box. That's when you have for example dimensional data or the exact dimension of each item. If uh, a company doesn't have it, well, they bring the products after picking to the packing area and then you can place that product in one of our machines and the machine will do everything for you. It will measure and it will pack it automatically for you. And so we have uh, a set of machines in, for example in this last one we, where you can go anywhere from uh, 4 or 500 all the way to a thousand boxes per hour. Yeah, so it all depends like how fast you want to go. Uh, and they would have different ways to make it work. Uh, we have some other machines that are very manual. Um, so it's a range of going from manual to very automated. Um, it all depends how the ah, operation is.

Rich Mullen: You know, um, you had mentioned a couple times earlier, but I have to say that my mind really does go to somewhat the void fill that you mentioned. Because the interesting thing about this is the little bit of savings that happened throughout trucking and all the other warehouse areas and efficiencies and all the rest of that. But the void fill alone, not going into a landfill, uh, is huge. Yeah, you're nodding your head but I mean, I mean that right from my heart that that is a huge savings

Pablo Martin: and, and people are more conscious and we will continue to be that way. Um, and people, even the first one's asking like can we do Something better and then you start feeling bad because you know that that plastic is going to be in the planet for hundreds and hundreds of years. So yes, I think the more we can avoid it, it would be the better. And uh, we start seeing some regulations uh, coming in. Europe started, then some, some states in the us uh, New Jersey for example was one of the first ones to adopt it. Adopted. So there's going to be more and more regulations where the same government is going to ask the uh, companies to use better or right size packaging for their items going out.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, a lot of that void fill stuff is not unlike the plastic bags you get at a grocery store. They're ubiquitous and insidious, terrible for the environment, all of that stuff. Um, so we talked about the scope of pack size um, in you know, how your software packages integrate upstream and stuff like that. Does is there any discussion with pack size as a company or do you know of them speaking, um, of where the boundaries of your firm, like where won't you go? Like what wouldn't make sense for pack size as far as what it is that you offer in your value, uh, you know, component, um, to the client.

Pablo Martin: Um, I would say the, our sweet spot is the one you mentioned when you have a diverse mix, um, when a product is about to go into a box. So more than a boundary I think that's, that's our sweet spot. Um, and that's where we can make the biggest difference and we, we bring more volume. So yeah, getting it right at that moment, save costs, all the things we have mentioned reduces waste and sets everything downstream upward for success. Everything like not just in that part of the facility but further on with all the shipping savings, customer satisfaction which I think is going to be increasing more and more and the reduction in returns.

Rich Mullen: Yeah certainly you're going to see uh, increase in volume of what you do because that's the way the world's going. But so you're saying essentially the boundaries of the firm will be on the periphery of that core concept of what goes in the box.

Pablo Martin: It's for now I think it's hard to. Of course, yeah. Fortunately I've, I've seen how this journey has continued to be and it will continue to grow and the industry itself will continue to grow. So let's say I'm curious too.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, I am too obviously because I'm asking the question, but uh, it's such a cool business. I will say again to the audience, uh, if you get the chance to run by their website, I would look at it it's pretty cool with that. Let's move into our final section. Uh, as we always do, give uh, us some innovations that are coming about in your world that are going to have an impact to, on your company or your work and then also give us some threats that you see that could have the negative impact,

Pablo Martin: I think on that innovation and brands could go together. Um, what I see more and more not only on Paxas, but within the industry I'm working on is how can we work more together with other companies and other technology so we're no longer in isolation. Um, going back to the strategy program. If we continue that way, we're not going to win that game. We want to win. So value increases when you go in with someone else and you partner with other technologies, other software platforms or some other automation providers. Um, so growing that ecosystem is I think one of the biggest innovations we can bring in. Um, combining with our strengths, with how we deliver and the different products we have in, I think that's going to be kind of the trend and the innovation we're going to bring in along with other stuff. Unfortunately, that packsize has being investing a lot in new innovations. We recently, um, acquired another company called Spark and they brought really, really good technology. So we are not now part of our one umbrella. So that adds up to all, uh, our strengths and combined we are better as a whole. So it's part of the innovations we're bringing to the industry.

Rich Mullen: What do you see as threats?

Pablo Martin: I see a few market m. Uncertainty for sure. We are playing a game that some, maybe we haven't played before. That would be one being disconnected. That would be another one. That's why I think when we partner with other companies, we're better. Adoption, resistance to change, um, clear of the next few months. I think that's also part of the adoption, part of it. Like, hey, let's wait until everything settles down.

Rich Mullen: Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Okay.

Pablo Martin: Yeah, I don't know that if, if and when that's going to happen. And obviously the, the elephant in the room for a lot of companies. AI how, how will that impact what you are doing? How we can use it more as a tool rather than resisting it. That's I think going to be the big threat for our industry and for many all over the world. Most of these threats I think are not unsolvable. It's more about reminders about strategy people

Rich Mullen: and staying on your guard, staying on

Pablo Martin: your guide, how we move together.

Rich Mullen: Yeah, that makes sense. And the partnerships make a lot of sense. I think your core competency and value is clear. Pablo, thank you so much for being here. Uh, I hope you had a good time.

Pablo Martin: I did. Uh, thank you so much for having me. Um, this conversation meant more to me than I can probably put into words. As I said, it was the first time I'm in a podcast, so truly grateful. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for this time, Rich.

Rich Mullen: Of course. Take care.

Pablo Martin: You too.

Rich Mullen: You've been listening to the Economics and Strategy podcast, presented by the Business Strategy and Decision making program at DePaul University's Department of Economics. This episode was produced, edited, and hosted by Rich Mullen. Our music was composed by Liz.

Pablo Martin: Folks.