How Sole Responsibility is Building a Fast-Growing Business from Fashion Returns

Speaker A: The economy's getting a little bit harder and people have got a little bit less money but they still like the nice things. And that's why people are starting to move towards seconds and returns because the majority of the time, you know, when you sort of work with all the premium tier brands, they're phenomenal products and keeping them in circulation as long as possible is definitely the best thing to do.

Speaker B: It's the E Commerce Master Plan podcast, uh, here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e commerce business through the hype. To bring you inspiration and advice from the e commerce sector and beyond. Here's your host, Chloe Thomas.

Speaker C: Hello and welcome. It's great to have you here.

Speaker D: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring

Speaker C: guests in this episode. I'm catching up with a retailer I

Speaker D: first chatted with for a virtual summit

Speaker C: a few years ago. So it's great to get to catch up and to finally be able to share what he's up to with a wider audience because it's a super clever business model where everyone involved really wins. Now we don't get hugely into his business model here because we get a little bit distracted with the bigger picture of what's going on in the fashion sustainability space in Europe. Yes, we're talking espr, but we're not getting hugely techy into it. We're more talking about the massive ramifications for consumer sales, E commerce and far more. It's a real thought provoking one. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with Simon, so prepare to be intrigued I think is probably the right word. And make sure you listen to the end so you catch his top tips as well.

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Speaker D: And now to introduce our special guest. Simon Payne is the co founder at Sole Responsibility, a sustainable retail business specializing in the resale and take back of seconds in the footwear and clothing space. They resell tens of thousands of subprime shoes and garments a year with growth at 30% year on year.

Speaker A: Hello Simon, how are you?

Speaker D: I'm good. Really excited to be talking to you about all of this because I think your business is fascinating and your space is insanely fascinating at the moment. Before we get into that though, how did you end up in the world of E commerce?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a very good point. So we've been doing this for quite a while now. We've been in the space for probably the best part of 15 years I would say working with seconds and returns. So I think we were probably slightly ahead of the curve. Um, so we've kind of cut our teeth for quite a long time. So I think we know this space hopefully inside out with a bit of luck.

Speaker D: Let's hope so.

Speaker C: I mean I think, I think you definitely do given the years you spent

Speaker D: doing this for big names on the high street. You know, you're not just taking back some not dodgy trainers but some random non branded trainers that someone knows about. You're, you're taking back big name brands from big name high street brands, aren't you?

Speaker A: Yeah, very much. Um, so we've been with JD Sports um, as a sustainable partner now for five or six years. Um, we also work with several of the main retailers and yet we're seeing brands like Nike, Adi on Hoka, um, product like that when we're working with the retailers. So yeah, certainly it is a fascinating space to be in. Uh, when we started out all those years ago it was, it was super exciting then. It was a lot tougher then because we were pushing forward something that we thought very confidently that was going to happen and now we're sort of in the mix with it all is a little bit madness. But it's all good, it's very exciting

Speaker C: and it must be product wise. It must be really complicated because every SKU is different. It's not like you can list Trainer

Speaker D: X in various sizes. Each one has some kind of thing that's made it a second or made it a return.

Speaker C: So do you literally have to photograph everything?

Speaker A: Yeah, everything is different. Uh, we didn't choose an easy project, did we? Yes. I mean you can have anything from a toe box issue to a heel issue or, you know, slice or to the marks. Yeah, I mean it is, it is, it is interesting. But yeah, we do pretty much have to photograph every single issue. Which I think certainly from a, uh, retailers and brand perspective thing is the absolute, exact opposite. With a lot of these guys you can just upload, uh, a spreadsheet and you know, within a couple of hours, you know, have 20, 30,000 different SKUs. That's certainly not the case with us, although I wish it was. Yeah, we deal with everything pretty much individually. Although we've got really good tech in the business now that uh, helps us to get on top of what we're doing. So it doesn't really speed things up for us.

Speaker C: Yeah, I guess it's another reason why these big brands need you. Is that being set up to do the type of product listing and product selling that you're doing compared to doing

Speaker D: what JD Sports, for example, is doing,

Speaker C: it's completely different workflows, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, massively. I mean, you know, for example, when we've been working with retailers and brands, we do see product that will come in as seconds and returns, um, in different palettes or different forms. And we've sort of invested internally in um, AI software. So AI for us has been really, really key for us without giving the game away. We have software where we can take photographs of the products are, uh, then automatically identified. So we could point it basically with a camera or an iPad, point it at your foot, take the photo and it will tell you within a high accuracy, um, range of what you've got on your foot really. So if I'm wearing a Nike Air Force One, it'll tell me I'm wearing a Nike Air Force One, it'll tell me the color, and then it's got a really strong chance, uh, of deciphering the rest of it. And then from when we're listing on certain platforms, it automatically puts into listing criteria. So one phase is, you know, tells you what it is and then onto the next screen puts into item specifics and then off you pop, um, and then it starts to list.

Speaker D: It even occurred to me you'd have

Speaker C: to do item identification before you could even start creating the listing for it.

Speaker A: No, it's crazy. I mean, you know, because we've been doing this for such a long time and there's probably not many people in our space, certainly at the levels that we kind of Go at we've created, that's one part of our tech that we've created and then the other parts of the tech that we are pushing forward is looking to sort of plug into retailers and get the retailers to basically send it direct into us as a, as a full circle. So, um, I know we'll probably discuss a little bit of the ESPR sort of within the interview, but um, it's kind of sitting as that sort of sustainable partner for retailers and brands and um, you know, helping with that kind of solution that's going forwards.

Speaker D: So rather than a return coming back

Speaker C: to their warehouse to be processed and

Speaker D: then sent to you, it just comes

Speaker C: straight back to you to be listed and resold?

Speaker A: Yeah, pretty much. I mean we're trying to work on different sort of parts of either carbon emissions or convenience. You know, what works well for the retailers and brands. And from a uh, full circle perspective it is kind of how do you make it slicker and smoother? Uh, you know, returns are not ideal for retailers or brands but you know, moving forward the consumers actually like these products because you get like the brand recognition. So you might have a slightly used Nike, but the important thing is to keep it in circulation for as long as possible. And you're certainly finding that the retailers now are understanding this. And you know, I suppose on a slight indeptice, the economy is getting a little bit harder and people have got a little bit less money but they still like the nice things. Uh, and that's why people are starting to move towards seconds and returns because the majority of the time, you know, it's when you sort of work with all the premium tier brands, they're phenomenal products and keeping them in circulation as long as possible is definitely the best thing to do.

Speaker C: It's a fascinating time certainly in the UK consumer space at the moment because we've kind of got this multi whammy call it. There's been a cultural shift to mainly I would say driven by the likes of Vinted. Um, we've seen ebay playing catch up,

Speaker D: we've seen Love island getting on board this whole the cult of the secondhand clothes. And all of us seem to have vinted problems addictions these days.

Speaker C: But there's been like that consumer piece that's then coupled with the economic piece

Speaker D: of having less money to spend combined with as you mentioned, ESPR and the other legislation coming down on bigger businesses and ever smaller businesses to force them to care more about the end of life of the product. Not just it's left our warehouse we don't care anymore. There's so many things now pushing from the consumer side and from the legislative side to make businesses pay more attention to this, aren't there?

Speaker A: I would say it's possibly the biggest melting pot that you could ever get involved in. I mean, it is. The synergies are absolutely massive. And what is going on, um, with the resale platforms and everything is just crazy. You've got places like Vinted who are, uh, doing absolutely phenomenal. And I think I'm correct in saying within France they're probably the biggest retailer or something like that. There's some statistics around that. So everyone is going on to places like Vinted. There's also so slightly talking about the economy. People are putting together little side hustles or they're just sort of having the need to start selling, um, uh, their old T shirts or their old shoes or anything like that. There's probably economic pressures as well, um, that are sort of pushing one side as well and they're kind of pushing families that uh, you know, to afford the next thing, that they're then having to definitely, definitely sell more and more. So there's economic pressures on families that are probably accelerating the places like, um, like Vincent. But then on the other side you've got platforms like Whatnot and Tilt who are doing the social shopping. Now that, that's completely different because what you're finding is that you're moving what is a transactional model where people actually go and view and they have a look at it on the website and everything and they maybe send the odd question and then they purchase it to places like Whatnot until where they are Social live shopping. And you've got guys and presenters who are selling the product there and then, and that's across sort of seconds of returns and new. And you know, in theory you can basically, you can be at home in your lounge and you are turning your mobile phone into a qvc. Um, and that's massively spiking, um, the demand for actually stock as well. So the whole thing is massive. And then when you're looking at ah, what is just the tip of the iceberg for espr, I don't actually know what that's going to bring, if I'm completely honest, because it hasn't been implemented as yet, but it will be very, very soon. So interesting. Scary. I don't know if anyone knows what's going on, but slightly exciting, I think.

Speaker C: I think you know more about what's going on than most of us and probably most of Our listeners as well. So Simon, could you give us the quick bullet point guide to espr? You know, what does it stand for? Where's it coming in? When's it coming in? Who's it going to affect?

Speaker A: So ESPR is eco designed for sustainable product regulation. So what we deal with from our side of it is predominantly the seconds of the return, so the kind of the unsold goods. So the responsibility and accountability for, for that side of it, that's what we kind of take from the legislation. So it's just making sure that I think it's the 19th of July this year and it's predominantly within Europe, so there isn't anything specific within the UK as yet, but businesses over a certain volume within Europe, um, uh, brands as well, they are responsible for their secondary returns, which is fantastic news.

Speaker D: And for those brands who are in

Speaker C: Europe, is that your business is a European business, that is, you know, you are registered in France or Germany or Spain etc. Or is it that you sell insufficient

Speaker D: quantities into those regions?

Speaker A: My understanding is where you sell within those regions. So obviously there are global brands who sell with within those regions. So that's kind of what I interpret it as.

Speaker C: It would make sense that it is that way around. And that's uh, what little I've read

Speaker D: about it suggests because otherwise you just

Speaker C: see a mass outflux of fashion businesses suddenly registering in New York or London going as a very easy loophole.

Speaker D: Well, not that easy loophole but a lot more straightforward.

Speaker C: So if you're a UK business only

Speaker D: selling in the uk, you're not currently affected. But I think we can be pretty certain that this is the way the legislative waves are going. But if you're a UK business selling significant quantities into Europe then this is going to affect you too.

Speaker A: So I think a lot of the smaller brands, I mean there is a banding over the next, I think it's the next five years. Um, and it's to do with revenue off the top of my head, I believe 2 million pound businesses seem to be exempt then, uh, up to 30 million is coming soon. So it's more a case of the, the bigger businesses and it's probably aimed at the larger brands. I would say, you know, there's quite a few more global brands who are specifically out there, so it's applicable to them, I would say.

Speaker C: Got it. And basically this legislation is around. As the manufacturer of the goods, you're responsible for its lifetime pretty much.

Speaker A: I think that's the kind of gist behind it is that let's say for example you put it into a country and it did end up in landfill somewhere. Uh, the accountability is coming back to the brand which is super, super key. It also means that certainly throughout the cycle there's going to be a lot of trust with who everyone is working with. But I think the changes are just going to be, just going to be so massive it's hard to understand what, what it will look like in 6, 12, 24 months when it has actually kicked in and then what the remnants afterwards are and the enforcement and everything else and see how that kind of works. Because when you're looking at traceability of products generally it's exceptionally hard to trace products, you know, once it's gone and it's kind of out in the ether as it were and ah, it's being worn. The actual sort of network to, to find stuff is, is exceptionally hard. You know, if I bought a pair of shoes. And then again this is kind of when um, it goes on the vintage um, goes into the resale and tracing that all the way through is, is, is super difficult and you know there's not really an infrastructure for that as yet.

Speaker C: No, it's, it, it's going to be really fascinating how it evolves in Europe and then how it ends up evolving elsewhere in terms of legislation but also in terms of what the companies proactively do. Either because they've made changes in Europe and have seen that deliver for them, because some of the elements of this

Speaker D: should be cost savers or profit improvers, adding a secondhand marketplace to your store, creating less waste in production, less um, overstock, et cetera. But, but also how countries, not even in Europe learn from those, sorry, companies not even in Europe learn from those and start pushing things further forwards in how they deal with their own products.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think one of the key things probably within kind of Vinted and a lot of these retail platforms is a good thing that you are doing is that you're keeping using the product for as long as possible, which is fantastic. And a lot of sort of footwear and clothing can be worn for a very long time. I think that the knock on effect at some point will be it may well actually drop initial production. So you have got so many that's being produced. But if you keep putting new products into the market and places like Vinted are really, really kicking off, then it's going to keep going through and through and through all the time and you're actually going to start using it. Let's say for example, uh, it Might go from a year to two years. But then I was at a meeting about two or three weeks ago, I was speaking to a chap about the, um, the new materials that are coming in. And we were saying, well, Vint is brilliant and everything keeps being recycled and being reused. But how do you get the market penetration of these new materials actually coming into the marketplace? Because you've got all the different sorts of chemical mixers and all the different blends, which is sort of what people want to get out, because they're easily recyclable. So you've got this massive kind of flywheel effect of going on. And, you know, having gone to numerous different conferences, everyone's pushing or, you know, there's all these different materials that we need to get in and it'll be easier to break down. And then all this, you know, wonderful new shoe design and everything else. And, uh, which is, which is wonderful. You know, there's like modular shoes which are coming out, and that's great. But then if everyone's using Vinted to keep you reusing everything, when does it all sort of come in and then do we start producing less? So it's. I think it could be absolute madness, if I'm honest. And, and, you know, these new materials do need to come into the marketplace. But, you know, realistically, if, if you see the sort of uprising of these platforms, you know, you've got to be increasing, you know, full market penetration for like five or ten years easily.

Speaker C: We have to be moving from a world where, you know, you buy a dress and it sits in the wardrobe for five or six years, and you maybe wear it two or three times, so it says two or three times, and then you give it to a charity shop and then it maybe gets worn by someone else once or twice, and then it gets thrown away. Talking like 90s naughties behavior here. Um, so that's seven times that dress has been worn to a world where you might just have rented the dress. So it's getting worn once a week or once a fortnight, or you're in a scenario where you wear the dress, you sell it on Vinted, it gets bought by someone else, and it gets worn, I know, four times a year rather than three times in five years. And if we're, you know, there's only so many clothes a human can be. Can wear in a week. So if we're, if we're making better use of the clothing that already exists, then the amount of new clothing that needs to be produced outside the world

Speaker D: of socks and pants and bras because you know they do get worn out and you probably don't want secondhand of those.

Speaker C: Um, but outside of them we are

Speaker D: presumably going to be in a space where less new will need to be bought because we still only have so

Speaker C: much space in our wardrobe.

Speaker D: We can only still only wear so many pieces of clothing a week if we're increasing the number of wears per garment.

Speaker A: Yeah, and that's a, it's such a good way of putting it across the amount of wares that you have. And the other thing that we've kind of got and there's quite a big sort of retail shopping within the uk. It's a lot of socials. There's, you know, there's a lot of drops, a lot of designs, a lot of influences. There's a lot of people who are influencing us within the markets to buy new stock. Um, you know that, that is, you know we've got places like um, up in Manchester, huge shopping centers and everything, always pushing the latest to the new. So you have got what is probably going to be two very compelling and competing narratives over the next 10 years and that is going to be well, maybe three potentially. You know, you've got the vintage and those platforms and the pre loved garments and keeping it going, which is absolutely imperative. You've got the retailers who have produced the garments in the first place. They're now being really sort of well used and heavily used. But then they're also, the retailers of the brands are wanting to sell you the latest drop and everything else. And then on the third side of it you've probably got what is going to be legislation driven and you've got um, certain percentage of the new materials within ranges. So a lot of the uh, a lot of the brands are only putting small percentage of their range with the new materials. Like, you know, some of them are maybe 5 to 7% of their range has the new materials and then it's all competing for the same thing. So, so where are you buying? And, and the brands and the retailers kind of sit across all three of them. They'll want these new materials in but then they'll also want to be a, uh, massive activists for sustainability. But then they'd also like to sell you a new drop and a new pair of trainers. So it's just going to be interesting how that, that comes. I think the, the younger generations, you know, certainly my, my daughters love vinted and places like that. And the other thing is that stigma is being removed as well. You know, sort of 20, 30 years ago, secondhand was not what it is now. Now that sort of generation of 16 to 25 is hugely embracing it, which is incredible to see.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think if I think back to my uni days when ebay was just starting and the Porter's Lodge was starting to get overwhelmed with a number of ebay parcels, I reckon right now they would be drowning in vinted, like absolutely drowning in vinted if we were, if we were at uni today. Because that, you know, ebay was buying

Speaker D: our uh, ebay habit was buying really random stuff.

Speaker C: Really random stuff. It definitely wasn't reuse, recycle, et cetera.

Speaker D: It wasn't very worthy but um, properly random.

Speaker C: But I think it is interesting what

Speaker D: the role of the fashion brand, business is going to be as we move through these changes.

Speaker C: Fashion in particular, which I think is

Speaker D: going to be the most impacted by this consumer shift.

Speaker C: Because yes, there's ways of making money

Speaker D: out of your secondhand market, but does that enable you to still support the infrastructure, the humans, the space, um, the brand that you have that is currently founded on new, new, new, new, new, new endless amounts of new and more, more and overstock. And it's a huge, huge, it's going to be a huge shift in the space.

Speaker A: I think it will. And eventually at some point, and I don't know if this is going to be 10 years plus production will have to be reduced. MOQs and uh, what the MOQs are in factories and either reducing them, it is going to be fascinating because they eventually will be competing against one another. You know, again it might be 10 years but the brands and retailers will be selling obviously the garments and the footwear and they want it to last a long time. But I just don't know what is going to happen. I don't know. I mean I'm a huge advocate of obviously uh, what I do and I always buy second hand and um, I have done for a very, very long time. But I like the brand equity. I like the brand equity and I like sort of being able to keep that going and that for me, you know, I've done that for the past probably 35, 40 years. I am that young. So yeah, I've done it for a long time and the next generation is starting to do that, which is, which is great.

Speaker B: E Commerce Master plan is supported by some of the greatest companies in the E commerce sector. Here's a reminder of who they are.

Speaker F: Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park M, you're Not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail. Filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and AH24.7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

Speaker B: It's time for the Top Tips round.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker D: I love this section because it gives me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level. Simon, are you ready for the top tips?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: Okay. You're nervous.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: There.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker D: The book Top Tip. If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

Speaker A: Outliers is one of my favorite books. I'm not sure if you've read it or not.

Speaker D: I don't think I have, actually. I think I read the back but

Speaker C: didn't get any further into the actual book.

Speaker A: Outliers was, uh, one of my favorites. It was the 10,000 hour book and that for me was absolutely fascinating.

Speaker D: And the traffic. Top Tip. Which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn't get the press it deserves?

Speaker A: Obviously across the socials, you know, there's places like, um, I would say places like LinkedIn. Um, you know, I quite like that. You know, it's a very sort of set market who you're working with. And for me, huge M. You know, you've got a quite a dedicated pool of people, I think, sort of within our industry. So kind of communicating within the industry for me on LinkedIn is super, super key.

Speaker C: So for anyone who wants to keep on top of what's going on in, uh, fashion, sustainability, following, um, Simon is a great idea on LinkedIn because he's very up to speed with it all. I get a lot of my knowledge. I try to be as actively, um,

Speaker A: I think when you go through, through major shifts and changes, um, I do get a lot of questions quite regularly on there, which I'm very happy to answer. Uh, it's great to sort of have a chat with people because it's not always on the top of people's radar, is it? So.

Speaker C: No, no, it isn't. And as you said several times, it's evolving. It's not yet fully formed anyway, so it's got to try and work out what's coming. Um, tool. Top Tip. Maybe a Collaboration tool, a social media plugin, a phone app or just a way of working? Is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team

Speaker D: efficient from day to day?

Speaker A: So we use everything is done on Trello, I'm told at times just to put everything in Trello. So it's just I kind of, if anyone's used it, you put your different cards in Trello, your dates and for a lot of my team I've run separate boards, uh, one with my kind of the top team constantly putting ideas and I actively encourage everyone to just sort of brain dump into the app and then we'll just deal with it later and then we just sort of start moving it around and then we also use it within, um, the rest of the active team's customer service and streaming and listing. Everyone has their own Trello board and we communicate through that. So yeah, it works really well as a comms tool to be honest. Keeps the teams nicely together.

Speaker C: It is mad how many different ways you can use a tool like Trello, from the brainstorming and the idea capture through to systems management. It's so, so adaptable. Okay, the carbon top tip. What's your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an E commerce store?

Speaker A: Obviously getting it to the consumer was part of it and this is where I kind of come in, uh, as our future potential help. And um, we're looking to sort of put together from a circular business perspective of working with retailers, et cetera and actually taking returns directly into us. Um, so looking to cut down a large part of carbon emissions. So that's something that we've kind of been working on internally for quite a while.

Speaker C: Very cool. Look Simon, before we say goodbye, could you please let the listeners know where they can find you and your business

Speaker D: on the web and social media?

Speaker A: I would say that the best place to probably find me is posting on LinkedIn as they tend to do most days. Um, just put sort going what's going on within sustainability, you know, always available to be messaged. Just, just drop us a message and always happy to help.

Speaker D: Brilliant.

Speaker C: Simon, thank you so much for being

Speaker D: on the E commerce Master plan podcast and for sharing so many insights and thoughts with us. I really appreciate it.

Speaker A: Thank you as always. Thank you.

Speaker D: I continue to find Simon's business fascinating. I highly recommend going and having a look at their ebay store and their other stores around the place because what's sole respons responsibility up to? It's really impressive the systems of the business. Not that we got into a lot into it here, but it really is. And then to get a little bit of insight into the bigger picture of what's going on in the product life cycle, I suppose more so than just sustainability in the fashion space is fascinating. So hopefully a very thought provoking one for you all there. Uh, I suppose the good thing if you're in the eye of that storm at the moment is there are a lot of solutions providers like Simon who can solve elements of it for you. It doesn't have to be 100% solved by every company in house. You can get your hands on our notes from this episode, including those top tips and links to what we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplan.com you can

Speaker C: also use the short links that's ecmp.info

Speaker D: the number of the episode and that

Speaker C: will take you straight to the correct page. And when you get to the site, you can add yourself to the Chloe Thomas newsletter so you don't miss out on any of the things I share

Speaker D: to help you improve your business.

Speaker C: If you liked this episode, then have a listen to episode 536 where I am chatting to another founder building their business on other retailers. Dead stock. Uh, that's Jules Haynes from the Haynes Collection who operates in the homewares textile space.

Speaker D: And if you want more on fashion, ecmp um.info fashion will take you to a page on the website where we've listed out all our many, many fashion episodes. Thank you for tuning in to this and every episode of the eCommerce Masterplan podcast.

Speaker C: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help E Commerce business owners to succeed and thrive with their businesses, including progressing

Speaker D: along the path to net zero. So if you know someone this show

Speaker C: can help, please tell them to listen to the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast. I hope you have a great week and don't m forget to keep optimizing.

Speaker B: Thank you for listening to the E Commerce Master Plan Podcast. Find out more more@e commercemasterplan.com podcast.

Speaker G: When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-granger clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.