2024 Media Buying Masterclass - Marin Istvanic

Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of the Ecom Gold podcast. Thank you very much for tuning into this one. And I got to test my knowledge against one of the top media buyers. Marin has been recommended to me by more than one person, uh, Tyson, who we interviewed a couple of episodes ago about his D2C dashboard that he built over many years. Marin was one of the people that utilized that in practice to drive the growth of multiple brands. Marin is a top media buyer. He's been buying media for a long, long time. And, uh, well, I was a little bit intimidated coming into this one that I wasn't sure I'd be able to stack up to him. But I think I held my own pretty well. And hopefully we went through, I mean, in an hour, a ton of different topics, from creative to how to structure your ad accounts, to what types of strategies you should be running for different outcomes, when to scale, when not scale, when to fill your pipeline, when not for your pipeline. Uh, just everything I think we touched on in this episode. So I do hope you enjoy it. And apologies if you had, uh, that noise. That is not part of the show. That is a food truck going by, uh, brought to you by. Not the food truck, Zenlane, which is a company that will provide you with emails, SMS and reviews all in one solution. It's a modern platform built for D2C founders. The team are incredibly, incredibly enthusiastic about email. I would have a demo with them if you haven't already. You probably already know about them, but there is a hundred reasons to check Sendlane out and they, uh, will explain them all to you if you book a demo with them. Also brought to you by Rewind the Cat, the app that every Shopify store should have installed for peace of mind.

Speaker B: Why?

Speaker A: Because it backs up everything. Your orders, your products, your customers, your data. It means you can restore anything that's on your Shopify store in a click of a button. That is incredibly powerful. When something goes wrong, you will wish you had it and something will go wrong. Even if you do everything perfectly, you cannot control third party apps, you cannot control possibly your staff. Hopefully you can within reason, but it's just worth having on, um, for the price versus what it delivers. They also do staging sites so you can practice everything that you might want to put on your live site, not directly on your live site, which is very bad practice. So go and check out Rewind and send the links in the show notes below. Over to you, Marin. Marin, thank you so much for joining us today on the Ecom Gold podcast. How you doing, sir?

Speaker B: Uh, pretty good, Pretty good. Just woke up like an hour ago. Um, thank you. Thank you for having me here.

Speaker A: Yeah, no worries. Well, uh, we had your previous colleague, or at least someone that you worked with, uh, on the show not so long ago, who shared what is probably one of the best D2C forecasting data Dashboards and reporting dashboards that I've seen. And he built that over a number of years. And then your name popped up and he said, one of the best media buyers, if not the best media buyer that I've worked with. And I think you commented actually when he tweeted about his dashboard that it was very helpful for you in your career. So just give us a quick background into um, what you have done and what you do today in terms of D.C. e Commerce.

Speaker B: Yeah. So currently I'm a partner at the Inspire Agency. Um, we are a boutique agency focused on paid social. Facebook is our bread and butter. We do TikTok ads and Google Ads for, but maybe for like 10 to 20% of the clients. Just because some clients want to have like um, one agency taking care of all the channels or like they want to have like one weekly core, one invoice. Uh, but like that's more an exception than the rule. As I said, Facebook is our bread and butter. Uh, we are boutique agency. Basically we work with just like 15 to uh, 20 clients. Uh, we don't want to be another sausage factory. Like when you hire an agency you end up working with the junior media buyer that doesn't know much compared to the guy that sold you, uh, the service. So basically there are just three media buyers plus me. Two of those um, are my friend that I trained and that have been working with me for the past ah, uh, couple of years. I personally manage uh, just like four high spending ad accounts. Uh, but I'm included in communication with all the other, um, like in strategy and communication for all the other clients. And that's, that's pretty much the story. Uh, besides the agency we have two internal brands. Um because like we realized like when we can scale other people brands then like why not scale, why not build our own? Um, so yeah, one is like on a like 15 mil a month, a 15 mil a uh, year track. The other we just like started a couple of months ago. So that's, that's definitely exciting as well.

Speaker A: What's the biggest difference in your, in your opinion? What's the biggest difference between spending seven and eight figures media buying five versus five and six figures? What, what's the biggest difference when you get into a bigger account with bigger daily spend. What changes?

Speaker B: So what's the difference between uh, let's say brand, um, that is spending more to the brand that is spending less. Like everything else besides media buying. So media buying is just like cherry on the top. Like when you have dialed in infrastructure, when you have a product market fit, when you have influencers, when you have um, like blogs, when you have YouTube, uh, like everything else kind of like, like helps media buying. And then like, obviously it's easier to do media buying for a brand that's spending like 10, 15k a day compared to a brand that's spending 1k a day. And the main difference is I think that everything else is dialed in. Um, there are rare, um, exceptions where like there's a like super unique product that just appeared on the market and then you can scale that only with Facebook, like what was happening like five years ago, I still see a couple of uh, dropshippers that like, they find one product and then scale it like from 1 for 1k to 10k within a month. But as I said, those are like more exception than the rules. What changes from my side? Um, not really much. Like it's just another zero when I'm starting the budget. Um, but those bigger accounts definitely need support from uh, creatives. Like we need way, way, way more creatives for an ad account that's spending 10k or like 50k compared to the other account that's spending like 2 to 3k.

Speaker A: That's a really good point. And we'll come on to how you kind of think, um, about the amount of creatives you need to hit a certain target for the month or for the week or even for the day. But do you have a kind of baseline methodology that you approach media buying with? I've heard a lot of people, uh, find the cost cap methodology quite a, ah, good way to operate and just either scaling efficiency, uh, or scaling up volume and working it that way. Some people disagree completely with that. Um, and some people still do audience targeting and things like that. Do you have a grounding principle, A grounding methodology that you work from M, uh, that you believe is best? Yeah.

Speaker B: So there's not one dogma that I would preach. I know some guys are preaching just run cost cap. The other guys are preaching just one, just run one campaign. Like, I don't like that. I like to utilize everything that Facebook gives us. So whether it's like audience, whether it is cost cap, whether it is subscaling, like whether it is advantage shopping, plus everything that I can like use. I will use it and then I will evaluate the results. So I'm kind of like using all the possible, uh, combinations. I'm not a fan of running only cost caps. Uh, while they sound great in theory, like, I don't think there are a couple of reasons I don't like them. So first is I don't think that Facebook can determine whether creative would be good performer or not without even serving an impression. And that can often happen. Like you set like a uh, test under cost cap and it doesn't spend. And like, only thing you can conclude is this creative is not good enough. But like, what are you going to tell to your creative team? Hey, it's not good enough. Why it's not good enough? Like you don't have any data, uh, to support that. Also, the same creative can, can like spend nothing on, let's say in October and spend the full month, the full amount of money, uh, of the budget in November. Why nothing change except the consumer behavior. So like, people are more into buying mode in November or like they're more into buying mode in weekend compared to Tuesday. So like, why would I risk, um, like not knowing when my, if it doesn't spend, I don't know whether it is a bad creative or it is a bad timing. So like, I want to know what is the reason. So that's why I don't like cost cap for testing. I'm still a fan of using cost cap for scaling. So basically when I have um, cost combinate, when I have like something proven, proven audience with a proven set of ads, then I would move it to cost cap to kind of like squeeze more out of it to maximize, uh, the efficiency to maximize that winning combination.

Speaker A: That makes sense. So how would you go about that step before then about matching an audience, uh, and a creative together? What would your process be to get to that point?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I have like four steps. Ad account setup. So first, and that is a baseline. That's my creative testing campaign. Like everything is based on this. So I have one campaign that is abo. Each new test is a new ad set. In each new ad set, we have like three to five variations of that concept. So let's say we are testing us versus them. Then we are going to compare let's say our product to inferior solution, our product to the competitor, or our product to like, I don't know, other service that uh, like uh, our product is better. Then like whatever gets most spent is usually the winner if it gets spent and it delivers me the Results, I will consider that ad as a winner. I will take that ad and like, find some other winners and launch them with the different, uh, with the different audiences. I will take that ad and take those winning ads and launch them in Advantage Shopping plus, and then I will take those winning variation of the audience and ads and launch them with the cost cap. So like, campaign number one is creative testing campaign. Whatever works, I keep scaling there. So like, oftentimes it happens that my highest spending campaign in the ad account is my testing campaign. So like, no matter if it's labeled as testing, I just keep scaling it there. Um, the second thing, as I mentioned, like when I found a couple of angles from, um, couple of ads from the same angle or from the same creator, I will try them with some, um, uh, some additional audiences. Um, I know like people are not fan of using interest audiences, but like when you actually know who your customer is, you can kind of like amplify that creative. Like yes, creative is doing the targeting. There's no doubt about that. And my highest spending, uh, like all of my testing is done with broad audience excluding buyers. So. And there's no doubt about that. That broad is working the best. But I still find out that like, you can squeeze a bit more revenue when you have dialed in creative that's speaking to the certain audience. Like, there are a couple of examples we found out like, for one coffee replacement drink, we found out that like teachers and people in the office are the one that are using it most. So we had like, creatives that are talking about like, hey, don't have an afternoon slump, or like, have more productive meetings. And then we were targeting people that are teachers or people that are into, into the office. For example, for one shoe brand, we found out that like people that are traveling are mostly buying these shoes. So we targeted like frequent travelers. Uh, like, so those are kind of like, um, how would I say it, like secondary targeting options. So you're not just targeting shoes, you're targeting travelers. So when you have an ad that says like going traveling abroad or like, uh, like you're not productive and you're meeting, so like this speaks to that customer more than it speaks. Like, it still speaks when you're targeting broad, but this gives it like another level. Obviously it's not always so scalable as broad, but it still deliver pretty good results. Um, that's step number two. Step number three is take those like, winning combination of like audiences and ads and put them with the different, uh, with different manual bids. Let's say if our target CPA is 50. I would set up, uh, three different ad sets again in the ABO, because if you put it in a CBO, Facebook would just spend on the ad set that has the highest bid just because it has most room there. So I would set it like at 45, 50, 55. And then after a couple of days I would evaluate, okay, which ad set is actually spending and still delivering me results. So I just want to find that like, sweet spot. I want to calibrate it so I still have deliverability and I still have results. Um, and then step number four is like take all of those winning ads and put them into Advantage Shopping plus, um, obviously for the brands that care about new customers, we would put that percentage, um, gap for existing buyers to zero, just because we want to reach new customers there. We start with the higher budget and then we know like, okay, there's no, like, there's no risk here because all of these ads are already proven winners. So that's kind of like my, um, my four four step setup.

Speaker A: Just, just summarize those steps again just in like a one sentence or two sentences each step. 1, 2, 3, 4. And just a quick summary of each step there.

Speaker B: So step one, creative testing campaign. New test, new ad set. Everything. In ABO you are testing, um, ah, couple of variation of the same concept. Step number two, winning ads from either the same concept or the same angle grouped with different audiences. Step three, winning audience audiences with winning ads with cost caps. Step number four, Advantage Shopping plus with winning ads.

Speaker A: Perfect. Okay, thank you. So I mean, that's quite, that's quite a lot of process for. So typically in step one, how many angles or hooks would you be testing? Three.

Speaker B: Maybe something like that. Like, so I would test like angle or concept. Like angle is, let's say, um, supplement for uh, people with like, uh, how do I say it? Like, uh, jobs in the office, like corporate jobs. Or like, that would be an angle. Style would be, I don't know, unboxing video or us versus them or something like that. So like, depending whether I go for angle or like style, like, uh, I want to have at least three different variations. If it's a video, then I want to like have three different hooks. If it's an image, I want to have like three different, like either either call out text or three different layouts or three different designs. And then like, I want to give Facebook more choice because if I launch one ad or asset, it's just like hit or miss. I'm forcing Facebook to spend the budget. I on that variation. So that's why I want to have like, uh, multiple variations. Um, and yeah, that's pretty much at least 3 variation and not more than 6.

Speaker A: So do you have, do you have one creative concept per abo with three variations and then you have separate abos for each one? Yeah.

Speaker B: So it could happen that I have like, I don't know, 15 lives, uh, Abos, because each new test is a new concept. If it works, I keep scaling it. If it doesn't work, I kill it.

Speaker A: How do you know or how do you set your targets for what is working and what's not?

Speaker B: I mean, if I get like at least 10, 15 sales with the target CPA and it still delivers the CPA while I keep increasing the budget, I considering that like at least a partial dinner, I will move it to my advantage Shopping plus and I will see like if it's like an amazing winner, the winner of the winners, or if it's just like good winner.

Speaker A: I imported a, uh, bulk import of products into Shopify and I did not put in the metafields the created date. And uh, that sent the whole filtering system haywire because you could no longer filter by collect collections by newest in first, uh, uh, or date added to the website, which was a really big problem for this quite large fashion brand. If I didn't have Rewind, that would have been a complete pickle. It would have taken hours, if not days to sort out. All of the while these products are live and really messing up their merchandising. A mistake by me. Absolutely. But fortunately I had the foresight to install Rewind before I made any of these changes. And I was able to just click a button, restore the site back to a previous version just a few minutes before I made that fatal error. And no1M was anywhere the wiser. That's the value of Rewind. That's just one use case. Okay, one use case. There are hundreds of other use cases. Have it on there because when you need it, you'll text me or you'll tweet me and say, thank you so much, Finn, for recommending that I installed Rewind. You saved my bacon. Back to today's show and how frequently are you. I mean, I guess it changes depending on the strategy of the business. But how frequently are you running these tests? Like, what's the kind of uh, cycle through of creative that you're operating like?

Speaker B: We don't have a like set rule. It depends like what the client can deliver. How, like how much creatives do they get from the Creative agency and like how fast is their turnaround with their in house team for graphics or something like that. Uh, and it also depends on the budget. Like if I'm spending 10k a day, if I'm spending 50k a day, like there's a difference in terms of how much uh, I need to test. But I would say that like I would launch at least five concepts a week. So basically um, like every, like every day I would launch a new concept if I have a constant stream of creative.

Speaker A: And in general, because obviously you're operating from an agency side in general, are you having to lead the clients down the path of setting a spend goal based or backing that into whatever they might want their revenue uh, to be that month or their contribution margins to be that month, whatever that might look like. Are you having to say look, you know, are they coming to you saying how much should we spend? And then you're saying well what do you want to achieve? And, or, or are they coming to you quite sophisticated in general and saying look, we, you know, we know where we want to be from a margin perspective and we need to spend about this much a month. Uh, go and do your thing. Like generally, how does it feel? Are you kind of more sophisticated than the client or are the clients getting more sophisticated now?

Speaker B: Again, it depends. Uh, it depends whether like client is like solo founder that had success with Facebook ads or is it like well built, uh, team that of like 50. Uh, but like nobody has a budget limitation. Nobody has a budget requirement. They say hey, here's your target. Or like we mutually m agree what's kind of like realistic target based on like like we reverse engineer everything. So they say like hey, I want to have like 20% net profit. Let's transition that into MER. Let's transition that to Facebook, uh, target. So we know like okay, in order to have like I don't know, 20% net margin, you need to hit uh, mer of iron, let's say 30 or like 25. And then you need to have to order to hit 25 Emmy. You need to have Facebook cross at like I don't know, 2.1. If you can hit 2.1 like scale as much as possible. So that's how most brands work with. We have a set target on the MER M and on Facebook or like for new customer Ross or something like that, depending on the client. And as long as we are hitting that, I can scale as much as I can.

Speaker A: And generally speaking is that a blended target across all SKUs and campaigns that they're running or do you take it down per sku level?

Speaker B: So again, it depends. Like, mer is obviously blended. Um, in terms of the sku, most brands I found that you could have 50 skus, but still like, they're just one or two, maybe three that are like scalable. That are scalable enough on Facebook side. So like, we still, like, we advertise most of those, like only those two products, let's say. And then we know people are end up buying other products. So like, we would have like custom conversion set up for each product or each collection and like, which is fired every time someone buys that product or collection. So I could, uh, advertise product A and get like 20 sales. But I would, like check in my breakdown and I can see on Facebook that I got like only 10 sales for that product that I advertise. Other than sales are for like product B, C, D. So like, it's hard to have target per product when you like, cannot control what people would buy.

Speaker A: Yeah, makes sense. So do you work, do you operate on like a daily, uh, media buying plan is in. You have a daily goal, daily spend target for most of the brands that you're working with and daily efficiency target, perhaps that you scale up, scale down and check each morning or you work in a weekly basis. Uh, what's your kind of. Was a day in the life of, uh, Marion, when you wake up, like, what's the first thing you do and then how do you go about doing your job?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, um, like, mostly the target is on a monthly basis. Obviously. Like. Like, if we are good on a month, but we are not good on a weekly basis, I would not pull back so much. But if we are not good on a monthly. But we are not, we are good on a weekly, I would again, maybe not push as much because we are not in that position. Also, it depends in what month we are. For example, in November, like, we were down trending compared to the forecast. Like for, I don't know, 15 days, 20 days. Then like all of the sudden, like when Black Friday appeared, like, we knew we expected there would be, um, an increase. So then like, okay, we did not lower the budget at the first, first, uh, part of November just because we knew we would make it up how my day looks like. So usually I have some kind of like dashboard, um, what Tyson setup or I have, I don't know, triple whale or nor beam, which gives me like, similar, uh, similar data. So I would like every morning for every client I. We have a table that I said, like, okay, we know what our target for MER is or for new customer roas and for Facebook. So I would check, okay, what's MER on a monthly basis. What was MER yesterday? That would give me kind of like direction. Okay, are we healthy? And if everything else is okay, could I scale? Then I would check how Shopify is today or yesterday, depending, like in what, what time zone it is. Because if I'm checking Australian clients and when I, when I wake up, like, it's like already 70% of the day over. If I'm working, uh, with us client, then I would check like, okay, how did they end up yesterday? So I know, like, okay, compared to the day before, are we up and or down? Then I would check like Facebook Ross or let's say triple whale Ross or Norbeam new customer Ross. Then I would, okay, I would make a decision. Okay, MER is good. Shopify spacing pretty good. Facebook is healthy. Let's scale. So I would like have a table with three to four different metrics for each client. And then I would highlight myself. Okay, is it green? Is it blue? Blue is just like, okay, just optimize. And green is scale. And, uh, red is okay. We have to do something. We have to dive in like, what happened because we are keeping track of, uh, the important metrics on a daily basis. So spend cpm, cpc, clicked, uh, rate, cost per to car, cost per checkout, cost per purchase, uh, roas, AOV and conversion rate. So if I see, let's say like in the past week for one of the clients, um, Ross went down. So, okay, I check in the diagnostic. Okay, CPMs are same CPC, same AOV, same. Conversion rate is down. Okay, why conversion rate is down? Because people feel that they would not get from product in time for Christmas. So they are not ordering. Okay, so what I need to do, even though my MER is healthy, I know we are down trending. So I would pull up, pull down the budgets.

Speaker A: Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So, um, just recap again. The, the, the, the, the color system that you got, so you got red. Then something needs to change, will be investigated. Blue, something needs to be optimized or tweaked. And green. Happy days. We can scale and, um, push the limits. Okay, so let's stop at blue then, which was optimized, I think. So when you go into those, what sort of things are you looking for? Is that when you're starting to look at some of the soft metrics, but just trying to work out, okay, maybe there's a part of the creative that isn't working. Maybe there's a part of the audience that isn't working, or is it further along your funnel than that? Where does blue typically show up in your 1, 2, 3, or 4, uh, step process? Or does it show up everywhere along that process, but for different reasons? Can you give us some insights into optimization?

Speaker B: Yeah. So blue, like, optimize it. Just mean, like, okay, readjust the budget, allocate the budget. Like, if something is not good, trim it down. If something is good, scale it. But in general, keep at the same budget. Just try to maximize the efficiency. Uh, so what I do when I'm optimizing, I check. Like, I check. What's the roas today or yesterday, depending on the client that I work. What's the roas in, like, last three days? What's the last roas in last seven days? Okay. Whether I can identify any trends in that period. Okay. If everything is healthy and I, like, I cannot increase the budget because MER is not great. I cannot. There's no need for me to, uh, um, decrease the budget because everything is okay. Uh, so I usually find that the sweet spot for optimization is, like, four, five days, four to six days. Just because, like, it's a mix of recent data and historic performance. Just because if I look today and yesterday, I would end up, like, day trading with the budgets, which I don't like. If I'm looking at the last seven days, I might get to the position that, like, I'm increasing budget on something because it was great seven days ago, while it's not great in the last three days. So I would enter every campaign, every ad set to the ad level. I would kill all the bad ads that are, like, under the target. So, like, I would. Okay, let's say if I'm optimizing, I would check what my average is in that last four or five days. So let's say it's 2.5. So if I'm optimizing and something is below 2, I would kill it. If something is between 2 and 2, 2.5. Okay. It's not great. Like, it's under the target. But then I will evaluate, okay, how are my early indicators? Let's say cost per etocard. Obviously, Ross is always the main target. But then if Ross is not there, I would check, okay, our early indicator spacing. What's my cost per etocard compared to the average? What's my, uh, hold rate and top stop ratio compared to the average? And then I would evaluate whether it makes sense to keep that ad a bit longer or like it is just like, okay, it has bad Ross, but like all the other metrics are bad. So it doesn't make sense to keep it alive. If something is above 2.5 then I would just uh, increase the budget. So basically I would go to every ad set, every uh, ad and then evaluate uh, that way if I'm evaluating certain uh, creative, then obviously yeah, I would check what's uh, the, what's the CPC click through rate. But they are heavily dependent on the cpm. So usually if you have like you have one client that's like in a supplement niche, um, and like their average CPM is like 40 plus. So like whenever I launch something new, I know I would get high CPC and I would get usually high click through rate. So there's not much I can do. I have one client that is advertising worldwide and his CPM is like four bucks and I cannot expect high click through rate there. Uh, so his CPM is four bucks. So I cannot expect high click through rate there just because there's a low intent audience and like it's cheaper audience. So I cannot compare like without knowing like the environment. Um, then so like I know what are my benchmarks for each ad account. Then I would check like, okay, what are my creative metrics? So like what's thumbstop ratio? Usually we shoot for like 25, 30. What's hold rate? We again usually shoot for at least 20, 25. And then what's my average watch time? I know that average watch time should be around at least 5, 6 seconds. If it's below then like if like your average watch time is just two, three seconds, there's not, there's no amount of media buying that can help, uh, to fix that just because like yeah, you have a bad ad and do

Speaker A: you feed that information back to the respective creative teams in terms of uh, yeah, this is what we're seeing. And then do you ever ask for iterations of the same ad? So you might see the thumbstock rates really high, but the view times really low. So would you then say give us same same hook, same start, but give us something else on the back end?

Speaker B: Yeah. So basically every Monday, um, we create a weekly report to the client with the numbers that we have. Like so basically we do daily report, daily report every day and that kind of like automatically creates a weekly report. So we send that to client. We send like what's a recap of the things that we did in the ad account was the recap of the creatives that perform or did not perform or like creatives that we tested, hey, out of these creatives, like this is the one that perform. Why? Because let's say, uh, when we compare this to the like inferior solution, it worked better just because people are familiar with the inferior solution. So okay, let's now let's say make a video out of it. If I'm analyzing the video and if I notice like, okay, thumbstop ratio is like way better than the average, but then hold rate is pretty bad. Okay, like, so something is off there. Then I would check the video and I would like analyze, okay, what is happening here? It could be that like you have one, one scene or like one girl talking like for five seconds and like without actually like making the switch. So like, okay, people are getting bored. Or like you did not show the product or like, I mean this is assumption, like I cannot say, hey, this is, this happened. This drop happened because of this. But then I would say to the creative team, hey, can you speed up this? Or can you cut it a bit more or can you like um, input a product or something? And they would like get me variation. So I would evaluate. Okay, did we actually improve, um, that other part of the metric? Sometimes you would improve that, but like the performance would not improve. But in most cases, like iteration would definitely help.

Speaker A: Yeah. Iteration. Yeah. Good. Understand it. Um, I think a minute ago, if I understood you correctly, you said you're not a particular fan of day trading budgets. Some people are. Um, I'd just like to understand from your perspective. I guess that's not a hard no from you. It's probably a balanced argument. There's probably some advantages, but I guess you believe the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. So can you give us both sides of that argument? Ultimately conclude with your reasoning for not day trading budgets?

Speaker B: So I day trade budgets or like I optimize several times a day only like during high peak periods. Like, like Friday, like Friday to Cyber Monday. Or like you have some crazy sale that we know usually we do. Like for some clients that is like Boxing day sale. For some clients, labor day sale. Like, besides that, I don't feel like it makes sense to optimize every day just because if you just look today data or last three data or last seven data, uh, for the same ad set, you could make three different decisions. So like if like, like a couple of years ago I was optimizing the ad account like every day and then I would go like, okay, let's adjust the budget tomorrow. Let's adjust the budget tomorrow. Let's adjust the budget but then like I would make, I felt like a hamster in a wheel, like doing the, like I would spend like 30 minutes, 45 minutes optimizing the whole ad account and like there was no upside. So like, I mean there's not much drastic that could change in one day that like could have a impact on the, on the perform overall performance. But like with my way of media buying, checking the ad account every two, three days, like I know that like everything is stable and like nothing would happen if one day is bad. Just because if the previous three days were bad, I already decreased the budget. If the previous three days were great and then we have like one bad day, like nothing bad would happen. Like overall we are still good. So like that's kind of like my philosophy, like nothing bad would happen with just one bad day. And one bad day could be just like one random day. But if I see two or three bad days, then it is a trend and I would always make a decision based on a trend on a trend then compared to just like one random day.

Speaker A: Yeah, completely understand that. I think maybe the people that make the argument for day trading budgets are more err on the side of the cost cap side of the equation. But I still, I still think you have a valid reason for thinking in that way. Here's a question for you. So obviously you're deep in the data, um, and optimizing appropriately. And I just want to understand from your perspective how much you think consumer behavior kind of more macro level influences the things that happen. You know, an ad account level, campaign level. What I mean by that is we've, you've mentioned Black Friday, you've mentioned some key events that happen on the marketing calendar and of course they increase demand somewhat for everyone. Uh, and then there are days like you said, the Christmas lead up where shipping stops, where demand plummets. There's nothing you can't media buy your way in or out of those situations that consumer behavior, behavior. Like do you, do you think you can influence it throughout the other parts of the year or do you think it really does come down to what the marketing team has planned to get those additional peaks into something that you can sell? Um, you know, I'm trying to understand like is there any trickery that you can do as a media buyer to try and boost up low macro consumer times and get more sales? Or is it really down to what the marketing at that company is done to give you that lever to pull? Like maybe they're running a new product drop or you know, something along Those lines.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it definitely like the macro level affects um, the media bank. And like I like what you say, like no amount of like you cannot media buy your way out of like bad trend. But there are certain things that could like impact like your general like your results. For example. We know that like weekend is always the best uh, part of the week for us. So then on Friday evening I bump the budgets. On Monday I always decrease the budgets. So what happens? We know that Monday is our worst day ever. So we like decided to start sending email on Mondays so we can kind of like make up the revenue that we are not making up on the ads and that like we don't have like, I don't know, let's say 100k day and then like 40k day. So like we would have like 100 and then like 75. So like there's not much drop. So as you mentioned like product drops like for all the like clothing, fashion products, this is something that I see has the most spike. So like let's say we have one brand that is like um, uh, launching new um, collection or a couple of new products every uh, every second Thursday. So then I know like okay week is okay, then Thursday bump. So like basically you're keeping your audience um, uh, kind of like interested enough. Also uh, we know that like some big influencers that we work with, like we know when they post there would be like increased demands. Uh, so like those are like small things that you can like that could have effect on the results but not to the level as like Black Friday, as shipping cutoff date, as like January, uh, New Year, new me, stuff like that could have Also the part of the reason I remember like why don't like cost cap? So basically you would have like set budget and set cap and let's say Tuesday it would not spend. Then on Wednesday you would send an email and you would like have your uh, influencer post about new product launch. And then like okay, everything was spent while like it's not that cost cap ads just got better from Tuesday to Wednesday. Like those ads just got more opportunity for Facebook to spend and to claim some additional sales that is not actually responsible for. So on lowest cost you would still get more results attributed to your ad sets when you send an email. But it would not overspend my full budget on cost cap. It could. So that's part of the reason why I don't like it uh, fully in the ad account and especially for testing.

Speaker A: Yeah, fair enough. Uh, talk to us a little bit about Retention versus new customer acquisition. Um, and do most of the clients that you interact with on a frequent basis have a good understanding that they need to keep their. Well this is my perspective that they need to keep pushing new customer acquisition in order to continue the ferris wheel of being able to get the retention out of the other side. Or is that something you still have to educate them? And how do you deal with that when new customer acquisition costs are rising in platform and the customer's like got a goal that they need to hit. Ah, and the temptations there just to plumb the budget straight back into retargeting. How do you deal with that conflict if that does arise for you guys?

Speaker B: Yeah, so again it depends uh, from client to client. I have one client that had, I don't know, Mer was 15. So basically they were crushing. Um, why? The guy had amazing, um, the founder had like, I don't know, 4 mil, uh, followers. He was like uh, really good on organic side. And most of the sales were coming through his like, let's say personal brand. He was face of the brand. But like when you check in, um, Triple Whale. So like mer was 15 but new customer Ross on Facebook was under 1. But Facebook was claiming that you have ROAS of 25. So when I checked the breakdown I saw that like 70% of sales were coming from a view through conversions. So basically okay, like Facebook was just claiming other people's sales, like sales that came through organically. So then we switched everything to seven day click. Obviously the results were worse. But then when we switched to like new customer, uh, roas making decision based on that like result, like obviously results did not just like improve. But uh, we slowly started getting there to make Facebook profitable as well. So it really depends. Like for some clients you have to educate them. Some clients like tell you, hey, I just need new customers. So then we need some um, third party uh, tracker like Triple Whale or Norbeam, which can actually track new customer per ad set. Because you can track it like regularly like in um, ah, Shopify. But like if you cannot tie it to a certain ad set, like there's no way to make a proper decision. Also there's one tool that I'm using for our internal brands called Converge. They can create you custom event of new uh, customer purchase. So instead of like in my columns, I have purchases and I have new customer purchases. So I can optimize right away in uh, in Facebook, uh, Ads, Ads Manager, which is really, really useful. Uh, also you could see that like some ad sets that don't have like I audited like over 100 ad accounts this year and you can clearly see that ad accounts or like ad sets that do not have um, buyers exclusion or purchase exclusion. Like they have great roas but then new customer roas looks pretty bad. So like when you tell the clients hey like this is not really incremental to you. Like you could get sales from these guys like via your email which is free or like at least way, way cheaper compared to spending the ads, spending the money on the people that you already acquire. And like when you just make. We had one client that like did not care about that did not have any exclusions. When we just like made the switch to start excluding existing customers. Like ah, Facebook went after new people. We managed to like scale from 10k to like 30k in a week.

Speaker A: And what controls did you wrap around that in terms of just taking that example? Great example. You scaled it from 10 to 30 profitably. M& if it was profitably like um, what was that customer? What did you have in place? Was it based on a contribution margin? Was it just based on a uh marketing efficiency ratio? How were you able to take it to 30k confidently uh, that it was still going to be profitable for that, for that client.

Speaker B: So like we had a uh, dashboard in triple whale and they like they had target. I want 20% net profit. Like you cannot spend as much as you can. They're like okay, I like made a proper optimization. I cut everything on their side. That is not actually uh, like that like I switched all of my decision making to seven day click instead of seven day uh, seven day click one day view which like they were increasing budget on something that did not have incremental results on the revenue. So when I switched my decision making, when I switched decision making for two new customers like I actually started making better decisions that like when I scale the budget it has incremental results on the revenue. And like that just proved like to be a pretty, pretty good uh concept and that allows us to scale more just because we were bringing more customers, new customers contribution like net profit stayed the same and like I was able to spend more on the assets that actually had an impact on the revenue.

Speaker A: And what. And um, just talk us through your theory behind why you might choose to use a one day click conversion versus a seven day click one day view. What reason would you use one or the other?

Speaker B: So like it's really. Someone asked me that the same question the other day because I posted a tweet about that. So seven day click one Day view gives Facebook most data to work with. One day click is the most conservative approach, but it's kind of like most aligned to your uh, third party tracker. Just because let's say triple whale is making like it's reporting back based on the utms which cannot track views. So like you have only click data. So if you're making decision based on triple Whale, it makes more sense that you align your Facebook, um, back to the, back to the, to the third party tracker. It also depends like how expensive the product. So for example for our internal brand we have one product that's like 350. So like there's no way I would get like um, purchase within one day just because people have to like click. They have to go like research like uh, they have to compare their options both in price and both in features. So like it would be hard for me to like, like scale that uh, on one day click. It also depends how many like how much view through conversions are you getting on average. So let's say for that one brand that I mentioned like 70% was like view through conversion. So it doesn't make sense for me to run seven day click one day view because. Can you just.

Speaker A: Um, sorry to interrupt. Can you just explain to anyone that doesn't know the principle of view through conversions?

Speaker B: Yeah, so like if you optimize for 7 day click 1 day view from Facebook and Facebook would attribute the sale if it happened after someone clicked on the ad and converted within seven days or if someone view an ad or converted within one day. So basically like that brand had like, that's, this is like extreme example. Uh, he had like crazy high uh, organic presence. And then like a lot of people were kind of like getting retargeted just because um, they ended up on a website. Facebook would just like show the ad. People would not necessarily buy because of that ad, but Facebook would say, hey, you saw our ad and you bought within one day. Hey, we are responsible for that sale. Uh, so you could end up having a lot of um, sales that Facebook attribute. And you keep increasing the budget, keep increasing the budget, but the revenue doesn't change because it's not Facebook that's responsible for those sales. Um, so like it really depends like what's the pro, what's the uh, price point, uh, how many like view through conversions are you usually getting in the ad account and like how long is the buying cycle? Like obviously for some product that's like $50, like it's okay to run one day click. But if it's 350 I would not run one day click. Also there are some clients that are like spending I don't know jewelry or engagement rings that are like 3 3k 4k. So like it doesn't make sense. Like nobody would buy that product just within one day. So it's kind of like you have to understand other, other things in the funnel, in the like in the business to make a decision what makes most sense. Usually I found out that like some healthy um percentage of you through conversions is below 15%. So let's say if you got yesterday 100 sales, if like 85 are click through that's uh, that's, that's good enough. If it's more than like okay, investigate what actually happened and like potentially switch to click only. Um attribution setting.

Speaker A: You are in the DTC space. If you have a brand that's selling online and you haven't at least had a demo with Sendlane, then one of two things is objectively true about you. You like setting money on fire. You like, like making your life more difficult. If neither of those things are true and you are an E commerce brand and you are selling online, you do send emails and you do send sms, you do have reviews or at least like to collect reviews, then there is no reason for you not to at least have had a demonstration with Sendlane. They are built for E commerce. They are the most modern platform with the best features in my opinion at the lowest cost. I mean I'm not really sure what would be holding you back. Please go and check them out show notes below. They have an event coming up. You can still get tickets I believe for that event in San Diego. A link to the Commerce roundtable in the show notes below as well. Please do go and check out Zenman if you haven't already. Back to the episode you mentioned. Uh, a good word in that you said funnel. Do you ever mix your attribution settings? Depending on if you're running creative, it's maybe top of funnel, educational, inspirational, branded based, creative uh versus top of bottom of funnel conversion based. Would you perhaps mix and match and have like a seven day click one day view on the branded stuff on top of funnel and then a one day click on the bottom of funnel.

Speaker B: Um so not, not really. Uh the only thing that I make a switch is when I'm running image ads because image ads usually go go more after m middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel because I can see based on percentage of new visits uh in Orbeam or triplevale that image Ads are constantly bringing uh, less percentage of new visits. So I know those people are like middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel. Plus I see if I run images on seven day click one day view that they usually get like 50, 50 uh, click and view sales. And as I told you I don't like those view through conversions, at least not the capacity of like 50%. So then I would like images I would exclusively run on seven day click or one day click.

Speaker A: And do you, I mean primarily, I guess you're working mostly on uh, campaigns that are there to drive conversions, uh either in that click or very soon after. But do you do any more brand awareness, top of funnel, creative strategies for your clients and if you do like how would you measure those? I'm talking like uh, if you have an high AOV product that has a long consideration, maybe your own product that you mentioned before, um, you might want to run some like first interaction ads that this might be the first thing a customer or potential customer has ever seen from your brand and it might be just a really nice, high shot, high quality piece of branded content. It's not necessarily going to drive a conversion. Maybe you send them to a landing page which got load of UGC on it and inspiration. Um, you know nice if you get the conversion but you might not necessarily optimize for that. So do you, do you um, do you do any ads like that? And if you do what kind of metrics for success are you looking at with those?

Speaker B: So not, not really. Uh, so I'm not running anything besides conversion ads. Um, I don't think like unless you're spending 100, 200k a day, I don't think there's, there's make much sense to run any other campaign like reach or video views or stuff like that uh in terms of the like creatives. So like I don't think that anybody like create like at least in this out of my clients that are like performance based and uh, like dtc, nobody is kind of like relying on those kind of benefits. Uh hey let's create something that's on brand video. Like we had one brand that like spent 25k for like to create ad like that did not convert it at all. Like average watch time was just even worse than what it was like on a regular UGC you spent 25k and you get video has like 33 second watch time just because it's not optimized for performance. Maybe it had an impact on the overall results but it's very hard to tell on the Other side, I have one client that creates, created uh, like Harmon, Harmon Brothers style video. Like funny like that video. Like even after three years when I, when I like used that ad, it's even horizontal one. So like it's super outdated format but I can see that like it constantly bringing uh, new visitors. So like no other video is bringing that amount of new visitors. No matter that video is three years old. So like there is certainly something about certain piece of creative that kind of like it. It's not an ad, it's like commercial, you know, TV style commercial. Uh, so it really like that's the only, that's the only time that I saw those kind of ads like that are, have higher effect on the overall let's say business funnel compared uh, to the, to the regular ad. But as you said like it's really hard to track what kind of impact uh, it has. Uh, I know it has but it's really hard to tell. Uh, so I really don't like something that I cannot measure. Although I assume it has an impact. So that's why I'm not a fan of that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the only time I see it in any way measurable is when it goes to some kind of landing page that you capture an email from and ultimately qualify that audience based on the answers that they give in the quiz. Uh, but I've only you know, you're talking about if you're selling like cars or like something that's ridiculously expensive that no one's ever going to buy in that um, in that first interaction. Uh, that's interesting and I think you're right. Like you have to match the content to the, to the platform but then you also have to match it to the people who are on the platform. Have you delved into any other platforms aside from Facebook and seeing good results? There's been murmurings that people have been getting good results on Twitter. Now X people have been talking about TikTok, although the trending thought is it's not particularly scalable. What are your opinions on the other platforms or are you just sticking to Facebook matter?

Speaker B: So in the past like years I did run some ads on Pinterest and on Snapchat, but I found their attribution settings not believable at all. So like you would get I know 20 Ross on Pinterest but like their attribution setting is like 30 day click, 30 day engagement, 30 day view. So like, like they're claiming they brought you a lot of sales but like when you check in Google Analytics or Like by UTM tags. Like there's two sales so I don't like those two um, personally Twitter ads. Ah, I did not use and regarding the um, um TikTok ads, uh, I do I use those. Like I found like you need to have like product that's um, that's a bit cheaper compared to the Facebook and like it need. You need to have creative that's suitable for TikTok that's kind of like TikTok style. And also I found that like creatives died out way sooner compared to Facebook. So like you need to constantly recycle and we did some see some scale but like not close, not even close to the uh, to what Facebook can give us.

Speaker A: How about YouTube?

Speaker B: YouTube is something that like I personally did not deal with. We have another media buyer uh for our internal brand that is doing Google YouTube. Um, I know like it's. I think it has a massive opportunity but it's very hard to make it work. Uh we also noticed that like it has pretty like results in platform look bad uh and like first day click look bad. But I think that they have like tremendous impact on the overall results. So like I think who, whoever cracked Google is on a path to success. But I think that like there you need to be even more intentional with the type of the ads. It needs to be like almost a VSL style. Like you need to have strong scripting. I know like Peter Kel mentioned that they scaled uh with couple of VSLs and then like they tried like without scripting and with scripting and like the only three BSLs out of 20 that worked were three that were scripted. So like I think like I think it's totally different beast and like I like yeah, if you crack that I think like you, you can scale really much but that's, that's not something that I dip my toes yet.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's a lot more uh thought that has to go into the creative especially and perhaps even talent too. Yeah, I'll be jumping around a little bit and we haven't got too long left. But I just want to ask you about um LTV considerations and um, whether you bring those into conversations that you have with your clients. And what I mean by that is um, mainly first purchase profitability, uh and also about how you increase the value of a customer. A lot of people use uh an LTV window of maybe 90 days rather than lifetime value of a customer just because it, it's unquantifiable. But um, we spoke about SKUs and, and you said about maybe a company has 2, 3, 4 Hero SKUs that are the only ones worth scaling. And that's probably true and they're probably the profitable ones. But I imagine you also run ads for other products and even if they do buy those SKUs, there's probably other SKUs that they want to upsell, cross sell. So do you have a separate strategy for attention specifically around increasing the average order value in LTV of uh, an existing customer within a set window for clients? Or is that something that just doesn't actually come up in conversation with you guys that much?

Speaker B: Yeah, so like usually I'm just doing. We are like for our clients we are just doing Facebook ads so we like don't do any retention. Um, on a side like I definitely want to have an insight from client in their like LTV and what they think, what they think they can afford. And like potentially if I can kind of like hey, but like if, if your LTV is this, then you can allow yourself a lower cpa, like higher CPA because you know you would make it up. So like in like I can assist in those conversation. Um, I can speak for our internal brands. Like it depends like whether brands are on subscription. That kind of like unlocks a bit more uh, room on the front end brands that are not on subscription but they have like multiple skus. Um, like you need to understand like whether those skus are like uh, are matching, like whether you can upsell product B to someone who brought the product A. Because like for example for one of our internal brand we have let's say four products and like one doesn't go with the first one but the other two go with the hero one. So like when we were like upselling and cross selling the second one, like it did not work. When we launched the third one it was like a perfect match. So like I think again it needs a bit more thought process to understand um, which product could be good fit compared to what people bought. And then like we are doing segmentation on the emails that to actually like try to sell them this product or this product. Also in the um, during November and now December, we rely heavily on gifting, um, messaging just because, okay, if you liked our product, like there's a high chance you would buy this for your mother, for your girlfriend, for your, I don't know, daughter or someone else. So we find that we kind of like see uh, saw pretty good success uh, with that kind of messaging. That's again way of ltv. Although they are not buying product for themselves, but it still, um, brings you more money.

Speaker A: How do you feel about. Yeah, thank you for that. So I've got limited time now, so I'm going to rush questions in at you as they come to me. How do you feel about what I call, probably others call juicing the funnel, which I mean by let's say the clearest example is probably Black Friday. In the run up to Black Friday, um, you might juice the budgets, try and fill up that funnel, um, in the hopes that you're going to cash in more on those events. Do you, do you tend to back into those big events by you know, increasing the budgets beforehand and taking a lower, um, well, lower general, uh, than. Lower than general targets, um, in the, in the hopes that, you know, over the month you'll net out positive over the whole month goals. So do you think about it like that in terms of your strategy and kind of um, wrap it around like that? I guess that's another, that's another reason to not do daily, uh, ad changes. But is that how you would approach it? You'd look at the peaks in the calendar and sort of back into those and fill the funnel?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. For example, for the, one of our internal brands. So we checked the data for last year and then like we assumed what would be the upside in the, in the um, like in November we noticed like uh, then like we lowered our targets for uh, for October and first part of November. So basically we were just on a break even because we knew that we wouldn't convert all those people at the second part of November and that's exactly what happened. So we did this intentionally and I think it made up like it's really hard to measure what our results would be if we did not do that. But I still think it makes sense because like this is the time like you're going to most likely to convert those people. So why not bring more people into the funnel?

Speaker A: So you dropped your mer, uh, you dropped your ROAS expectations in the lead up to that, but you still kept them above zero. You didn't dip negative, you just stayed. Okay, so break even as much as possible. Gas, gas, gas, and then, and then convert. So when you are backing into those targets, when you were setting those targets in your head about what you might do that month is year over year data. The most important thing that you look at.

Speaker B: Yeah, year over year. And like how are we actually facing, for example, if we know that like I, um, don't know this July was like, I don't know, 500 growth compared to like last July then I know, like, okay, it doesn't necessarily, like, yeah, like year over year is important, but then like, how year is pacing compared to the previous year is also very important. Important just because this year we added like two more product. We like signed, um, like a couple of great influencers. We added like, uh, we did some heavy gifting, um, because we know like, we would get a lot more attention. So that would kind of like even allow us to go a bit more. Just because we know we improved our funnel, we improved our product, we improved our, like, awareness about the product. So that kind of like, helped to go even a bit more low than what we, last year was, uh, showing us.

Speaker A: And how do you generally, like, set those targets in your head? Do you just sort of say, this year we want to do X percent more growth or profitability? I know generally speaking there's two camps. You either want to grow or you want to be more profitable. It's one of those two. Uh, or a mix of both. Or grow whilst remaining profitable. Something like that. But so let's say you choose your macro business objective. Can you just as a last thing, break down how you then back that macro business objective into your kind of m. Monthly or even weekly, uh, forecast and targets for your media buying?

Speaker B: Yeah. So for example, for that brand and for like what Tyson was sharing the dashboard in a previous episode. So, like, we first started with our contribution margin target in terms of the percentage. Um, sorry, in terms of the amount of dollar amount that we want to have that we want.

Speaker A: Is that. So is that a completely year goal?

Speaker B: No, no, that was only for November. Okay. What we want to hit in November, then we realize, okay, like, it doesn't really make much sense because, like, sometimes that contribution margin can result in a higher percentage, um, revenue. Sometimes, no. So then we switched, okay, we want to end up, uh, November with at least 20% net profit. So then I reverse engineer percentage net profit to what my contribution margin needs to be, to what my mer needs to be, to what Ross I need to hit. So basically you always go from the last metric to the first metric. And then that's how I adjusted my decision making.

Speaker A: Nice. And then to finish where we started on creative, you then worked out how many pieces of creative you'd need and what spend you'd need to spend to hit those targets, right? Yeah.

Speaker B: So, um, yeah, we, we kind, we had, um, creative strategies that worked on, like, concepts, um, for, for Black Friday all the way. Like, I think creative diversification is really, really important during that period because, like, we have individual, uh, we have like, um, statics. We had carousels, we get GIFs. We had whitelisting ads. We had, um, branded ads. Like, so, like, there's a lot and like, one of the best performing ad was like, um, one ad that I would never thought it would be the best performer. So like, it's really to have that, uh, it's really important to have that creative diversification. Then as I said, you, as I told you, like, I launched all of those tests each in a different ad sets. And then like from each I picked, hey, this is the winner. This is the winner. This is the winner. Let's put it into advanced Shopping plus and then just scale it from there.

Speaker A: Last question then. And then we're all done. You are, uh, well, we got in contact because of Tyson. Um, so you've used his, uh, DTC dashboard. We spent two episodes sort of running through it and explaining it. What do you think it's like in comparison? What are differences between that and something like North Beam or something like Triple? Well, uh, and what advantages do you get from using a dashboard like Tysons?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, like, I, like, I still use like Triple Whale Nor Beam for some of the clients. The dashboard that he built is for our internal client, uh, for our internal brand. Um, there are some things that you cannot really pull back into the Norbeam or Triple Whale. This dashboard allows you to like, to have everything yourself because everything you want because it's, it's customizable. So like you could actually see everything in one place. So this is what, what I like, I don't have to go like, hey, Google Analytics, Shopify, Nor Beam, Facebook, like, no, I can see everything in one place.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's so helpful, isn't it, to be able to just log in and do that. Marin, it's an absolute pleasure. Where can people, um, contact you, find you on social, uh, media and your agency. Just give it a shout out again for us.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I'm most, most active on Twitter. Um, I'm sharing like tips like this on a, um, on a daily basis. So you can, you can just, uh, search me there. Like, I do have other platforms, other channels, but like, yeah, Twitter is my go to place, so definitely there.

Speaker A: And what's your handle? I'll put it in the show notes as well.

Speaker B: I can send you like. I don't know how to spell it.

Speaker A: No worries.

Speaker B: All right.

Speaker A: It will be down below. Or actually I'll put it on screen for you so you can see it. Marian, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for sharing with us. Um, I really enjoyed this conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah, likewise. It was. It was really great, from all the E. Comm side to the creatives to the nuances of media buying. So it was probably, um, the most comprehensive, um, episode that I ever did. Thank you.

Speaker A: Yeah, we covered a lot of ground, but got great answers. Thank you very much. That was Marin on the show, everybody. And, uh, yeah, reach out to him. He's got a few thousand followers on Twitter, so go and follow him. He's, uh, tweeting lots of practical and helpful tips for media buyers and people working internally at brands, so I would definitely check them out. I'm actually a lovely guy. Um, that's all for this week, as always. We'll be back next week with another episode, if you're listening. Pleasure. Thank you very much. Sendlane. Thank you very much. Rewind for sponsoring the shows. Please do check them out if you can. It helps us as a show, uh, to continue to create this content and bring incredible guests. Back next week. See you there.