Building Demand in a Market That Doesn't Exist Yet

Speaker A: Welcome to the Ecom Colab Club podcast, where E Commerce founders and operators share the mistakes that drained their cash, wasted their time and nearly broke their brains so you could avoid that pain.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker C: No one ever listens to me.

Speaker A: Hosted by Adam Pearce, co founder of the Ecom Colab Club and Blend Commerce, the Shopify CRO agency.

Speaker C: So look, blokes will happily spend 800 quid in the barbecue, three hours researching the perfect lawnmower and half their salary and protein powder. Uh, but suggest they entered into a tinted moisturizer and suddenly, well, steady I may. I'm not on the West End. Well, today guys, the guest we have today is about to change of that. I'm born in Beijing, raised in Britain and previously running creative agency with the identical twin brother Shane. Jake Zhu launched Shake Up Cosmetics to tackle a problem hiding in plain sight. Men have skin, but most skincare and cosmetics still aren't designed with them in mind. Now, since launching the brand into Harvey Nichols In 2019, just before a global pandemic closed the shops, Shake up has grown into a certified B corp, reached more than 1300 stores globally, and um, has become a leading M men's cosmetic brand in China. Now we're going to be talking twins table tinted moisturizer, uh, taking on the beauty industry. And while convincing British men to put something called let's face it on their skin might be harder than exporting it halfway across the world. And Jake Zhu will be joining us right after this.

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Speaker C: Hey, Jake. Welcome back.

Speaker E: Hi Adam. Thanks for having me.

Speaker C: No, it's a pleasure. And look, you know, I. I love having you on our events and our shows, Jake, because I think, you know, you've got a lot of great stuff to talk about and It's a product error I think that everyone is maybe still a little bit intrigued about. So really, really glad to have you back. And, um, yeah, we've got, we've got quite a few questions that I want to ask you today. Um, and we're going to kind of go all over the place, if that's all right, because there's lots of different elements, I guess, that you're thinking from a personal level that are interesting about you and your business. And then we're going to get into more of the nook and crannies of the business, where that's all right with you.

Speaker E: Absolutely. And I love the intro, by the way, and it made it sound like that we're actually all made it. We're actually such a successful business. So I'm sure there, you know, the truth is far from that, but, uh, but I'm sure every single detail and nooks and cranny.

Speaker C: Well, yeah, we've, I think, look, you know, we've. We've all got things going to work, haven't we? And I think, you know, that that's one of the interesting things that I found in Ecom, and I don't know if you found the same as well, is that there is a lot of talk and there's a lot of chat, um, but maybe the realities of what we put out there on LinkedIn are not always the true realities. And I'm not saying, look, present company included, but I definitely have experienced that in my own career.

Speaker E: Yeah, absolutely, for sure. I mean, actually, I love to share the challenges more than sharing the wins because, you know, we'll all have, um, the wins, they all have the celebration moments, but, um, it's the challenges that actually really resonate and connect us from, uh, you know, from one another. And actually those, those kind of moments and those kind of sharings are quite therapeutic to me at least. So I'd love to share those with others as well.

Speaker C: No, absolutely, that'd be great. I mean, look, talking of challenges, and this might be a challenge or not I mentioned at the start there, look, you and Shane are twins. You, uh, live next door to each other. Uh, you built two business together. On the one hand, you might say, well, look, is that an entrepreneurial dream, or have you essentially found a way to never be able to escape your brother?

Speaker E: I mean, you know, we are twins and we think very much alike. We're on the same wavelength on most of the stuff. Ah. Um, and to be honest with you, having a co founder that you can completely trust Knowing that he'll always have you back. You don't have to ever play any mind game and in fact you don't have to spend any unnecessary time and effort to be courteous to each other. We're horrible to each other. Like we reserve the courtesy for other people. We just don't need that anymore. And we know each other inside out. I think that is very valuable in a co founder. Um, and I think we have found that since we started our first business back in 2006. Uh, and actually prior to that we know went to the same school, uh, we came to the UK together so we always have done things together. I understand that working with a siblings or family might not be for everyone, but for us it really seems to have worked out. Um, and also because of our twins, whether that's sixth sense or whatever that you want to call it, uh, most of the time that we are in agreement with certain things, whether that is, um, you know, business decisions or anything else. So our founders meetings are very, um, efficient. Um, you know, that we don't have to spend a lot of time debating about things and actually a lot of times that we come to the same conclusion quite quickly. We don't always agree, but uh, again being so close to each other, we can be very honest and open with each other without having to tiptoe around each other's feelings and feel like, you know, whether I can say something, I don't want it to be taken the wrong way or anything. You know, it is none of that. And actually that really takes a lot of the hassle off of uh, a

Speaker C: founder's shoulder really because I can resonate that to a certain extent because my business partner is my brother in law and I think, you know, one of again, if our relationship probably isn't the same as being brothers, I agree. I think it sort of, it can make those meetings a lot more efficient like you say. I think one thing I found though is do you find that on the other hand when you get used to operating in that kind of no nonsense manner, uh, does it make it more difficult dealing with other employees or dealing with external people in that maybe they don't move as fast as, as you move together?

Speaker E: Yeah, I mean he does come with his own frustrations and you get so used to the speed. Um, but I would say everything has got the pros and cons.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker E: It's got the different, um, two sides to everything. Um, and also I would say the efficiency and the speed of action is something that me and Shane have always Shared, um, ever since we were younger and to be honest with you, dealing with Asian, uh, partners working with the Chinese market, which we will go into later. You know, everything moves at light, you know, at light speed and everything needs to be done yesterday. So used to things done quickly, decisions made quickly and not to drag it on too much. So when you do deal with like people who move slower or more bureaucratically, it does create a bit of a, um, problem. But like I said, two sides to everything. And for us, uh, we are learning and we are trying to do better, that we are trying not to make any knee jerk reactions or decisions because when you are so, um, when you're so used to making decisions so fast, sometimes it could be the wrong decision. You know, sometimes it's better to leave a little bit longer to sit on it for a little longer to think about it a little longer before you, before you act, before you react. So we're learning that, um, so I think, yeah, there's definitely, you know, pros and cons to, to, to, to this dynamic.

Speaker C: Look, I love that because I think, you know, a lot of the time, I think when, when people talk about that kind of persp. Business and their mentality, a lot of the time it is sort of like, you know, this is the way that I do it and you know, this is the right way. And I, um, like what you said there because I think sometimes we do need to kind of start from and go actually, you know what we can learn from other people. There are things that we can do better and we maybe haven't got all the answers that we, we maybe think that we've got. So I respect you for saying that and I think, you know, it's a good point. I think we can all definitely learn from.

Speaker E: Yeah. And I would, I'll just add another layer actually. You know, being brothers because we're so close, I don't know whether you relate to this. Sometimes we could be um, kind of spark, like helping each other to spiral a little bit. You know, because we're, we share the same traits. If there's a stress or there's a challenge that we both feel quite stressed about something we tend to kind of feel each other's stress a little bit. And I think, you know, yes, when you're celebrating, perfect is, you know, like the celebrations and excitement is doubled. But when there's challenges and there always is challenge, but you tend to kind of like a few each other, um, uh, stress level as well. So we're trying not to do that. We're trying to lift each other up a bit, you know, trying to talk each other out of a certain ah, situation. We're out of a funk. Um, otherwise, you know, you could, you could potentially, you know, really get into this rabbit hole and actually sort of, you know, really egg each other on. Um, so that, that is something we're also learning on the job as well. Trying to do better.

Speaker C: No, sure. I mean look, you mentioned the term stress there and, and I'm going to sort of uh, take you back against your previous career. So you spent quite a few years running a creative agency before Shake Up. Yeah, when obviously you were uh, sort of working for other brands rather than your own. Which part of it made you go, do you know what? Actually they do a really good job agencies at doing this thing, but actually they don't know what they're doing and actually let's build our own. And I feel a bit like I shouldn't be saying this because I run an agency myself, but I'm interested to kind of hear what, what differences you saw within the reality of the doing rather than an agency telling about the doing.

Speaker E: I mean, you know, you don't need me to tell you this because you run the agency. Like you said earlier, um, when we were running an agency and when other people say that, great, you're your own boss, you can do whatever you like, you don't have anyone to report to. I say that actually every single client is my boss. You know, I've got everyone's to report to. You know, I work for all of these clients. I need to deliver because they're paying us for, for, for results. Um, so you know, actually the stress level was pretty, pretty darn high I would say. And, and, and, and unfortunately some of the marketeers that we were working with and you know, most of them have like a really strong opinions about certain things. It will, will do. You know, that's just human nature. So trying to convince certain people to change their ways is quite difficult. And the end of the day is their job on the line. If they do try something that's really out there, out of the box, you know, it's their neck on the block. You know, the agencies were kind of like protected a little bit because they are executing it internally. So if the things don't work, you know, they will have to, you know, they've got their own management to report to. So that part was quite, quite difficult. But the biggest challenge that we had as an agency, uh, I don't know whether you also relate to this is to scale the business like that is quite hard for us at least because all we had to sell was the headcount, really the manpower and the hours that we have got. So it's the time that we're selling that was our commodity, that was our product. So in order to double our size for example or triple our size, we would have to look at double tripling our headcounts or team in order to fulfill that type of revenue. But you know, manpower, M and headcounts, they're the biggest, most expensive assets um, for a business to hire, to manage and all of that. So we found it quite difficult to scale our business um, as a service based business, uh, even though we were serving really high profile, really good clients, doing great work, um, but in order to scale that business, unless we went down the acquisition route like what WPP had done as an agency, to really kind of grow exponentially in terms of size was quite difficult. Um, but of course there are other ways you can do it. You can productize your services, you can create packages and you really can generate that value um, rather than relying on the time that you are selling. But unfortunately that just wasn't our um, model at the time. So that's the reason, one of the reasons why we thought actually we wanted to do a product type of business, one is because you know, we can actually run a 1 million pound business or 10 million pounds business with pretty much the same kind of skeleton crew. You know, especially have the products made elsewhere so you don't have to 10 times your headcount in order to go from 1 million to 10 million. So this type of scalability was really quite attractive to me after running the agency for 10 years, 12 years actually. Uh, but of course you know with this type of business comes with its own challenges. They're no easy business in the world. You know every type of business has got its own challenges as well of course. Which

Speaker C: yeah, because I think it's, it's funny, you know, I get asked a lot of the time though, um, have you ever thought about starting your own brand or would blend start a brand, you know, alongside. And I think the thing for me is like I, I find it very difficult to hyper focused on one particular thing and I think this is what I will maybe struggle on with having a brand is that uh, I think you've got to be so invested within that product, everything around it, I don't know if I'll be able to do it. Whereas I think with an agency, yeah, I think look, in both models, you're spinning plates to an extent, but I think it feels more condensed. Did you find that a weird or a difficult transition when you initially started shake up? Uh, or was it kind of like actually you were craving more for that, like, intensity into the one product?

Speaker E: Yeah, I think it was a natural progression, I think towards. After running it for 12 years, we stopped the learning. Really the challenges were you're doing the same thing that you know how to do. You know, you, you come, you've already created this system, you can serve your clients well. Um, I wasn't learning anything new anymore, so I was not really, you know, the interest wasn't there. The passion wore off. Um, and as an entrepreneur as you, as you probably will also relate, is that you always have these different ideas, you want to try different things, you want to try something new. And the new exciting challenges and learning stuff, you know, I stopped learning and learning stuff is actually one of the key driver for me to run an own agency. Always wants to learn new things. And that was what's really interesting, was really driving me forward. So at the time when we were thinking about creating, um, the brand, I was already getting, you know, a little bit tired of running the previous agency. Even though it was a good business, it was profitable, but it was just, I was just not enjoying it as much as I used to anymore. Um, but the plan wasn't going to be set up a brand and then digital agency. That wasn't going to be the plan. It was supposed to be running two businesses side by side, and I thought we could. And, um, we were developing the business, we're developing the products, working with the lab and all of that. Now, thinking back, that was the easy part. You know, that was the exciting part. You know, you're. I didn't have to formulate it myself. They formulated it, send the samples and we, we try it. And that was the part that I love the most. You know, trying a new product, creating something completely from scratch. And that was the easy part because it didn't really involve you much in terms of, um, uh, effort and stress level was, was not, you know, you're not selling yet. You know, you're not trying to hit certain target, you're trying to hit a timeline. But that was also, you know, you're working with a partner to do that. But, um, towards later part, when we were ready to launch the product, um, that was when everything sort of, you know, um, came to a head. And then we, we were actually, I still remember we were in Shanghai attending the China Beauty Expo. And during the day, um, given the time difference we would walk the show for the whole day. It was a massive show. And then each, you know, you felt like your legs were about to fall off and it was just you know, talking all day or exhausted by the time we got to the hotel. Quickly, eat something. 5, 6pm is like around like 10am over here. We started working remotely with our team on the agency side until about maybe 3am and that's when you know, everybody kind of, you know, everything died down a little bit. Go to sleep for like a couple hours, get up again at 6 and we did that for a week, um, you know for the whole, whole show. And, and then towards the end of that, by the end of that trip, me and Shane, we just looked at each other to thinking we are about to burn out and if we really get to that stage and don't do anything about it, we're going to lose both business because you're just going, you're just not going to be able to um, sustain it. So we had to make a choice which one we want to focus on. And that was quite a hard decision but that was really, you know, it wasn't the plan to choose one and move on from the other. That wasn't the plan but in the end that was the decision I had to make.

Speaker C: Yeah, sure. And I think you know again it's, it's one of those things that when it comes to making those kind of decisions I think they probably become quite pivotable in the future because you, you know, maybe you could have done that, you know, you could have pushed on for another six months but what would the long term effects would have been? Um, and I think you know sometimes it, maybe it's not even you know, when we talk about two businesses but sometimes we've seen it where there is an emotional attachment to a product or a set of products that are uh, maybe sourced differently, made differently and then actually the brand keeps wanting to push those as well as something else. You kind of just have to sort of, you know, get rid of the emotions connected with it and say okay, from a psychological, mental well being point of view and future happiness point of view, what, what do I need to do? Um, so look, I've, I've been in a situation myself where we've tried to kind of think, you know, try and explore too many avenues. Um, but it, you know, it makes sense to me. Um, and I want to go back because like you said it hasn't, hasn't obviously all been plain sailing and I think you 20, 19, you get into Harvey Nicks thinking look great, fantastic and bang. World shuts down. Yeah, within that kind of COVID period that uh, you know again has been talked about a lot. But how close did it come to it sort of ending it before it really started.

Speaker E: Uh, by the way I, I go on you to cough. I'm trying to get over this flu so don't be alarmed by that. But I don't even know whether you can hear me or not. But if I can, if you can. Sorry about that. I um, it was, it was a bit of a shock obviously. You know, nobody could foresee that. And in fact it was quite a um, once in a lifetime event. And to be honest, you know we for our generation we lived through peacetime and we didn't know about you know um, anything that's that turbulent before, that disruptive before. And for a business it really is detrimental, it really is um, catastrophic. Um, we were three months old, you know, as a business and the plan was to go into harmonicals, really support, launch, build this brand, this bonafide British made British brand and then go international. International expansion had always been part of our business plan. You know that was always been from day one. Um, because it is a niche category. Rely on UK only is not going to give us the growth space for us to get to the level that we wanted to get to within the time that we wanted to get there. So exporting had always been part of our plan. It just wasn't that. Earlier on it was supposed to be building the home market, really go deep and then take the, take the brand elsewhere. But of course co changed all of that and I think it was, it was um, detrimental. You know we were. Harmony Co was our only retailer. They were shut because they were not essential stores and I think they were shot for 16 months altogether. And let's be honest, people actually go to Harmony coast to shop because of the physical experience. You don't tend to shop online with Harvey Nicole. At least back then it wasn't the case. Uh, so when the shops are shut you're not selling. And as a new brand we couldn't just sit down and wait. We didn't know how long this thing was going to last so we had to pivot. Um, so in the end we decided, okay, let's bring forward the export part of the business. And our strategy at the time was that we, we go everywhere that covet wasn't. So we, you know that, that's, that's the whole reason. So we launched in China by July 2020. And actually that launch saved the business in the first couple years.

Speaker C: Oh, wow. So, and, and I suppose, look, on the, on the econ side, when you were obviously thinking about the business initially, did, did your plans change? Was it always an intention to push with Ecom eventually or were you still at that stage, obviously, sort of when he got in time and it's thinking, look, it's going to be mainly kind of a, uh, you know, a, uh, retailer play or what sort of. Did the, did the plans change in effect, off the back of that?

Speaker E: Uh, yes and no. But I mean, our plan was that the brand was going to Omnichannel. We were, it was never planned to only have like a decent D2C only brand, um, for a few reasons. One is that we, we believe that actually D2C, you shouldn't rely on just one platform for, for your business. Um, and secondly, for our category for men's skincare, men's beauty, the reason why it remained a niche category, the reason why the stigma was so hard to break down was because these brands were only online. They were not being seen on the high street. They're not being shot about, they're not being supported by the, um, um, retailers. Therefore, they remain a taboo. They remain, um, a niche category. They're not normalized, they're not democratized. How can they be? You know, we are actually not even seeing the retailers on the high street carry the brand. You naturally feel like this is not something that you're supposed to be doing. So we want it to be seen. We wanted to have the exposure and we wanted to be carried by the high street shops so that we can tell the guys to say it's okay to buy these products, to use these products to make yourself feel better. So that was another reason why we wanted to be Omnichannel. Um, so it was. I don't want to say that we had this plan, this market. We're going to do D2C. This market. It was never that, um, um, specific. It was never that well planned out or well thought out. We didn't switch on the website when we first launched it. Just you feel like a natural thing to do. Um, but going after Her, Nichols and other retailers, that sort of outreach never stopped. It was not supposed, it was not planned to only stay on D2C. But of course Kobe hit and then stores shut. So that kind of made us rethink, okay, UK. The only place we can play in the UK is online. So therefore let's focus more on the G2C and Amazon business. But in reality, because we launched in China and it required every single penny that we had, um, because it's expensive market to develop and it requires a lot of the resources and effort. So we actually decided to focus on that market first to make that work because we're, we're seeing traction quite quickly, quite earlier on because within three months we were doing 100,000 pound monthly run rate in the UK in the Chinese market. So we thought actually let's just keep UK in hibernation because the market is kind of in a hibernation mode and focus on China where it needs our focus, needs our time, needs our attention. So we spent the following couple of years developing that part of the business. It wasn't until 2022, 2023 that we shifted our focus back into, back into the UK to develop our DTC and Amazon business here.

Speaker C: Interesting. I mean I want to come back to China actually in a second because I want to pick your brains a bit on that. Um, but I want to go back to something else you mentioned there about, I suppose sort of the uh, like you said and I like that. So that the idea of democratizing men's makeup and you know, if you look around them at the moment we've got a lot of people happily buying beard oil. There are hair loss tablets literally seem to be coming out areas. I mean I cannot go on Instagram without being targeted for them. You know, gym supplements literally to tranquilize a horse. There's still though this kind of like, I think with some out there of like the word makeup gets banned around and people start getting a bit sort of sweaty palms.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker C: What would you say have you learned as a result of the way that you, or I guess avoid triggering that sort of fear of the category?

Speaker E: Um, I think the social zeitgeist and actually the whole environment um, that we live in is doing part of the job already. Um, we're seeing more and more that in the mainstream media, you know, the pop TV culture, TV shows are promoting more of these kind of self expression, higher tolerance acceptance when it comes to men's beauty and how we look after ourselves from the outside and then in turn, um, looking after our inside, our um, mental health, all of that sort of stuff is moving forward. I think we're definitely seeing that shift and the stigma being broken down just quite naturally by people's um, uh, perception and also their ideas and all of these things are moving forward, which is great to see. Um, But I think for us, uh, yes, it's when certain words are mentioned, they're still triggering. And then to some people, they're very much triggering because of the upbringing, the background, the culture, the religion, what have you. You know, there's many, many reasons. So what we tend to do is that we always say that actually you don't have to use it. Not every guy needs to use our product. If using just a, uh, face wash makes you cringe, maybe don't do it. You know, it's not good for. If it's not good for your mental health, then don't do it. It's like women as well, you know, not every woman have to wear makeup. You do it for yourself. If you empower yourself, it makes you feel better about yourself, then by all means, you know, do whatever you like. But don't do it just because other people think that you should. Um, so, you know, we say the same thing to, to men as well. We're simply here to provide that choice and option for those people who do want to do it, including myself. You know, I've got rosacea. I've, uh, always suffered from skin issues and breakouts, and we dabbled with concealers and foundations, but just couldn't find the products that, that agreed around our skin were. Give me the finish that I was looking for. And when you go into the stores, you know, as a guy, you're shy to ask for help, you know, from the lady behind the counter. You're a little bit timid about certain things. You know, we've lived through all of that. So I just wanted to. We wanted to create something for other guys who are just like us because we have seen that, um, and, you know, Caucasian guys were slightly fairer skinned guys or Asian guys. When we have rosacea, the redness is a big issue. You know, if you do a survey, a lot of guys do have that problem. Insecurities about the red patches, uh, on their face, the blemishes, maybe acne, scar. Those kind of things do bother us just as much as they bother women. But as a guys, we have been told to bear it and put it behind your mind. If it's not something that you can do, you just basically have to cope with it. Um, if that knocks on your confidence, you know, toughen up those, those are the kind of blueprint that we had to live by. And we just simply want to challenge that because we don't believe that should be the case anymore. Um, and actually, in reality, it proved that we were right because we've got this like you say, let's face it is our BB tinted moisturizer, uh, is called a BB cream tinted moisturizer. Ah. Um, it works just like a light foundation, uh, slash concealer. You put it on. You know, I'm wearing that every single day to cover my rosacea. And I'd like to think that I don't look like I'm completely made up like a, you know, women's makeup, you know, that is kind of finish we're looking for. We that's our best selling product globally in China as well as here in the uk. We have a service where if the guy is not so sure about which color they should go for, they can email us their picture or selfie. And then our team will be able to recommend the best shade that, uh, best match their natural skin tone. And these photos that we receive on a daily basis, you will be surprised at the kind of guys who will ask for help. You know, they're not your know, you might expect them to be younger LGBTQ community, uh, community members. Of course, you know, they're, they're a big part of our, um, audience. But, but most of them are the traders, carpenters, Laura drivers and you know, they're 50, 60, you've got all walks of life, everyday men, everyday guys, um, that, that if I walk down the street and see them, I would never guess that they were, they would be our customers, but they are, and they reach out to us and then, and you see they're struggling with their issues, different level of, um, skin issues or rosaceas or blemishes. But clearly it's a problem that has been bothering them in the back of their mind for the longest time. But so far they haven't really had a choice that they haven't had the education that they could do something about it. And all of a sudden they see our ad thinking, ah, finally I can do something about it. They reach out to us and they buy an artist products and then they come back to us to say how happy they are. And those are, ah, you know, these are the validations that even we didn't expect when we first launched it, um, in, in this market. So that's really, that's really interesting and great to see. I think that's a great, that's the biggest validation we have received since we launched the brand.

Speaker B: So no, I haven't just gone and done a quick outfit change, which much so I'd like to. But this is an ad now, as many of you know, when I am not interviewing E commerce legends like on this very show today I, I am running blend commerce, the CRO Shopify agency and really over the past 10 or

Speaker C: so years we have been working with

Speaker B: over 350 Shopify brands and helping them get customers to buy more, Buy now and buy again. So if you are a brand that is looking at how to make real impact on your Shopify store by increasing your revenue per session. Well we're the guys of talk to and recently we've just been crowned the global CRO agents of the year, uh 2026. Now if you want to know exactly where you guys are from perspective of Buy now, buy more, buy again, all you need to do is go ahead to blend commerce.com and click on the top right hand corner where you will see a link to CRO benchmarks in there, uh, you can enter some details and we'll tell you exactly where you

Speaker C: are and what you need to do. J, you mentioned early on about China. Um, and I think you know there is still this sort of perception in the UK that it's you know, this faraway land and things happen very, very differently which obviously of course they do. But what I wanted to learn from you is you mentioned obviously with China they sort of got the proposition more quickly maybe than the uk. What, what do you think there is a reason behind that as to why that happened? Um, and I suppose, was there anything that you think that you learned from that experience that, that you've carried forward into the uk?

Speaker E: Um, yeah, I think China and Asia has a wider area um, influenced by K beauty, J Beauty Japan, beauty guys, um, are much more advanced when it comes to skincare and taking better care of their skin and they have um, education and, and experiences and things like that as you know when they're growing up. I, I was born in Beijing and, and I remember even when I was little before I moved to the uk, you know we were told to wash our face and use skincare, use face, face wash. Those kind of things are actually ingrained in our DNA. Uh, you know as a guy you, it's, you feel it's very common thing. You know you got to use skincare products to look after your skin. It's, it's not a taboo. Using makeup is still very much, you know the older generation probably, you know be harder for them to accept. But for the younger generation it's you know using BB cream is everyday occurrence. Um, in Korea, in China for guys and in fact actually taking care of your, your appearance or um, have a great skin is seen as a good trait in, in a guy and, and when they're looking for girlfriends or, you know, mate, whatever. Actually, girls like, um, guys who um, take better care of themselves because that means that they are, um, you know, they pay attention to small details and they will take care of the family in the future. They'll take care of them in turn as well. So, you know, it's seen as a good trade. It's not, you know, they don't have the stigma thinking, oh God, you know, that's a little bit, you know, feminine. Uh, it's not, it's not a concept. So I think when we first moved to the uk, we, we actually kind of struggled because we were quite shocked by the, the lack of choices when it comes to skincare products that are targeting men when we moved here. And actually I would still argue now, it's still the case that when it comes to men's skincare, you either go for the mass mainstream products that you finding the supermarket and you pick up with your Sainsbury's meal deal, or you shut out for Chanel, Tom Ford of the world in department stores. There's really not that much in between. It's a big vacuum for women. Skincare, however, they've got the different brands, trends, technology, um, you know, all sorts. Um, why, why is that not available to men? You know, our skin needs just as much, you know, um, care and attention as well. So why, why is that not the case? And in men's skincare, you can probably count the number of men's skincare brands with like two hands in less than two hands. And it's the same case for the last decade perhaps, you know, nothing's really changed much in that space. So this kind of comparison when moved here and actually constantly comparing it to K Beauty and China Beauty, how it's kind of moving forward for men. We just constantly felt quite frustrated that we could not have the same access to, to, to similar kind of product range and brand propositions. So I, I would say that's, that's the reason. And also when we first launched, um, when we decided to pivot to international, China became the obvious choice because we're Chinese, British, we speak the language, we understand the consumer behavior. You are right, it's very unconventional for a British brand. You know, usually China is the last market you tackle because it's scary, you don't understand it, language barrier, all sorts of. But for us, it's almost like second nature. So that became our second home market in a way, or the first market depends on which way you look at it. So I would say we definitely have a bit of an unfair advantage when it comes to launching to China. For, for those, for those reasons.

Speaker C: Um, this is really interesting to hear and I think, you know, it's, I uh, completely agree with you about the men's skincare market. I mean you need to walk into your local, you know, high street chemist that might rhyme with the word roots, uh, that maybe got a blue, blue logo. And it always still amazes me, Jake. Like I walk past obviously the women's section, like you said, there's three or four, you know, rows and there is literally, you know, one rack and you're like it's. Yeah, it's, it's pretty poor. But I think. Yeah, one thing I was going to ask you about on that note is when, when you market in China versus market in the uk, does the focus on the terminology change from skin care to makeup? Um, like do you use them in different contexts? Like is that like the, I guess the, the terminology around it? Is it, is it quite different in terms of what you do?

Speaker E: Yes, um, because the demographic is different. In China our demographic is much younger. They're 18, 25 to 30 over here in the UK they're 32, 35 plus. You know we've got second largest audience being 55 plus. Um, and that's almost kind of like no one 55 plus in China would buy our products. That's how much difference there is between the two markets. And, and it's not just the Chinese market. Since then we have also launched in um, Australia, Norway and we just recently launched in Spain thing. Every market you see some kind of commonality, some sort of like, you know, they do share some of their demographic but each market's got their unique um, um, audience, um, profile. So we do believe very strongly in localization of our brand message. Everything needs to be translating the message that is speaking more directly to that audience in that particular market. So localization is very important. We never try to shoehorn our market, our content from one market into the other. It just doesn't work. It just wouldn't work. It would never work. Um, that's why we like to work with the distributor in the different international markets because they understand the market, they understand the retailer, they understand what sort of messages make them tick. They can take our existing branded assets, um, with license that they can use completely but they need to re edit, they need to basically pick and choose, um, and create something that is more relevant for their market. We don't dictate in terms of, okay, you have to use this, you have to use that. We give them the full creative freedom for that. You know, how can you, you know, like a British guy here is completely different to someone in China buying the same, same product. So we just have to basically trust them, um, that they know what they're doing and give them the support from the brand as much as we can, but let them, let them, um, lead.

Speaker C: Is, is that quite difficult for you to do personally? Because, I mean, on two levels. The reason I asked this question is one is from the perspective, look, it's your, you know, it's your brand, it's your baby, your thing, you created. But equally after having run a creative agency, you know, I guess, look, you want to part of you guys, look, I've got the skills to be able to do this, but I, you know, I, I take your heart for being, to go, look, actually I'm going to give you the trust to go and do this. And I completely agree that this is where brands do up a lot of the time when they go into the markets. But was that, was that tricky to give that control or is it still tricky to do that?

Speaker E: Um, not really. I think once you've got like a really good brand guidelines that they have, you know, you've got the tone of voice, right, you've got your colorways, you've got your typography and you've got the really kind of like the visual system that you share with your distributor and usually they will, you know, the output will look quite consistent around the world. If anything, some of them might be better than what we can actually create here in the uk. I'm, um, constantly being surprised by how great some of the content that they create in the world local market. I actually enjoy seeing how, uh, how many different ways our brand can, can, um, can be seen or can be translated in a different market. It doesn't have to be, I don't hide, I don't have to love it, I don't have to like it personally. But if you deliver the results, I'm actually quite happy to see them. And, and I'm not, I'm not that precious about. Of course you've got to set boundaries. You know, you can't have different colors completely look like a different brand. Um, and, and then speaking a completely different tone of voice. That is a. No, no, but, but once that's all set and they have sort of followed that through and if they're a professional distributor, they should know how to do that if they don't switch a distributor because, you know, they're not clearly not capable. Those are basics. But once that's been done, the output is actually quite interesting. You know, let yourself open yourself up to, to these kind of different possibilities and, and actually I quite enjoy seeing. Seeing them in different parts of the world.

Speaker C: M. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, and I think, I hope people listen to because I think sometimes I always find it quite odd, you know, and you probably had this, you know, so your agency time is people are coming to you for support or you're being contacted, you know, as an expert in a field. But then there are so many guardrails up to actually prevent you from doing a good job. It's quite difficult. And I think that that's something that is still quite prevalent, I think within the econ world in particular. Um, I think. Look, you know, I want to. A couple more questions for you before, um, we go our separate ways. But I heard a story about you sort of telling that you had a guy who had his son's wedding, he had a rosation. Then basically he kind of realized that, look, when he was using your products, he looked like himself again. And that it must be amazing feeling, um, to know that you've created and did that when obviously that happened. Was that kind of a switch on moment in your brain that it was kind of like you were selling, you were selling an outcome rather than a product. Or have you always had that in your mind that that was what you were there to do with Shakeup, I

Speaker E: would say it's a reminder. Uh, right. Because you could so easily get bogged down by this kind of different challenges and stress. And running a business is not just about the setting the products and getting the feedback. And that's just only a very small part of it. You're so, uh, inundated and overwhelmed by the fire that have to put out, you sometimes lose sight on your big why. I know these kind of words and terminology is being thrown around by everyone and it almost sounds like a bit of a cliche, but actually when those kind of moments do happen, it really kind of bring you back to why, why you actually created this brand. And it's, it's a great reminder and validation and, and you're right. And you, you mentioned about this earlier. Um, the story goes, there's this guy, I think he's in his 60s and at this trade show. And if anyone who knows who he is, please do help me connect with him. Because I didn't take his number. I really wish I had. I'd love to talk to him just to see how, how he all went. Um, he's a secure, he's a part of the security team at the Barber Connect. Ah, show this is a couple of years ago and um, I saw him walking around and checking us out when we were demonstrating our tinted moisturizer on other people, our other participants. And then towards the end of the show he came over and finally worked up the courage to ask me to try the BB tint moisturizer on him as well. I could see that he's got rosacea on his face. So I tried the light shade on him. I think that was the right shade for him. He looked in the mirror and he just, he was really emotional actually. He said, I have not looked like this in 20 odd years. And then I was like, great, I'm really glad that you like the result. But he went on to say that actually, do you know what? Uh, I, my, my son is getting married next Monday and I've been um, I really have been stressing myself out because I don't want my red face to be the focus of that wedding photo and ruined it, ruin the day for him. And now he can actually feel like he can go in, go to that wedding to celebrate and actually looking his best, you know, for his son. Uh, that is really heartwarming. And that's a 60 plus year old straight man here in the UK and working a normal job and it just, you know, like, but you know, without, without this incident, without coming across our products, what would happen, how he would feel on his, on his Sun Speak day. And I just feel like I was really proud that actually we could create something that has such a big impact, um, on people's lives. But really it's not surprising because we created it because I'm that person and I feel how he felt. I mean there's so many big moments in my life that I felt like I could have looked better for those big moments, but I couldn't. I didn't have anything to cover the rosacea. I had a flare of that that I couldn't do anything about. So I knew, I knew that feeling and I just love the fact that we can now share that feeling with other people as well.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And look, it's, it's fantastic. And, and I think, you know, this is the thing that I guess the more, the more situations we have like this where people start looking at it like a part of a routine or part of their overall health and well, being the better it's going to be for them um, ultimately and obviously the better it's going to be for the industry too. And I think that's, I imagine that there is still a lot of the challenge still to go. Um, but I think definitely the more time goes on that the more people will science. And I think what I find interesting at the moment is particularly the um, Gen Z generation is there seems to be a lot more focus upon health and well being and prioritizing that. Um, and I do think that that will obviously be something that there's an obviously I guess filter down in terms of the way that we think about these products too because I guess it's the same kind of food and drink and alcohol and junk food. Like the perception around it is very much changing to maybe what it was in the sort of 80s and 90s and the early 2000s when I was growing up as a young guy. So uh, it'll be interesting to see. Um, but I think you know you're at a stage now where you've got, you've got retailers, we've got the sort of the international distribution, you've got your B court certification is fantastic to see. Um, and I did read that you, you guys sell a product every five minutes which I think is absolutely incredible. And what I wanted to know now is is what sort of the um, ambition for the business. Is it about kind of saying look, we want to dominate men's skin care? Uh, is it about making cosmetics completely normal or is it something different to like what's, you mentioned the why earlier? What is the why going forward from, from this point on?

Speaker E: I think this might be controversial. Um, we don't, I don't like the three year, five year plan and actually you know we have a goal, you know, for the purpose of the board and also as a business we need to have a goal, a dream that we need to. But to be honest with you, who knows, I mean like right now, especially with geopolitical instability and things that's happening around us as a business person, as an entrepreneur, there's probably never been in my lifetime, um, a more turbulent time and, and as many factors that could affect you and your business without, you can, without, without the control that you, you can't control anything, uh, right now. Um, so I think for us it's more about stabilizing the business for now, making sure that our cash flow is healthy and really watch um, the bottom line and making sure that we're not doing anything silly. Don't get Carried away, don't overgrow Outbreak ourselves. And those are the fundamental and basics that we need to, we need to watch rather than just like, you know, ambitious growth and then go chase after those kind of rainbows and actually sort of losing sight on, on, um, on the fundamental metrics. Uh, but at the same time, while maintaining that base, we want to get as m, as many people into the port as possible. You know, for example, that, that gentleman from the, from the traditional security team. We want more and more men to feel that, to really understand what we're trying to sell here. We're trying to really, uh, spread. It's not a vanity project, is not sink deep ironically. Uh, it's, it's more about how we feel, uh, our inner self, how, how we gain our confidence and how we can live life, um, you know, feel more, much more, much more confidently. Those are the kind of things that we want to really spread and want to educate and making people feel that, experience it, Once they have experienced it, they understand what we're trying to say here. But unfortunately in this category, the education cost is quite high. You know, trying to break down that barrier, the threshold is still takes a lot longer to convince the guys to really give this a try to come into this beauty conversation. So that is something we're struggling with. We find it challenging. Um, those kind of things takes time, resources, money. And when it comes to dtc, you know, this fast, you know, trying to get this point across at a different touch point, convince someone to break through the noise, you know, with all those different, kind of like different ads and noises and messages, that we are actually being on data every day, trying to get that message across, um, accurately, um, to the target audience is quite difficult if you ask me. The goal is of course to be synonymous with, with men's beauty. When people think about men's skin care, to think of shakeup, you know, we are basically the word for that category. That would be our dream, that would be our goal. Um, I don't know how long it's going to take us to get there, but you know, we will get there. I, I, I think you know what, doesn't matter how long, how long it's going to take, um, in the meantime, there's still fire to fight, there's still challenges that have to overcome. And somebody told me once before saying that running a brand, running a business is basically a strings of disasters until you die or business die where you exit. I mean it is constant, it's nonstop.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker E: So I think, you know, we Just basically focus on the task today and then knowing that as long as we're actually sort of going towards that North Star, hopefully one day that will happen.

Speaker C: Brilliant. Jake. Look, uh, as I said at the start of the podcast, I love talking to you. I think, you know, you, you give us a dose of reality. Um, but I think equally you're a very positive person and I just want to say thank you for uh, obviously being part of our community and thank you for being on the show.

Speaker E: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Speaker C: No, absolutely. And if obviously people want to find out more, maybe sort of, you know, again starting their own, um, journey with obviously looking at skincare and men's makeup, uh, where should they go, what should they do?

Speaker E: So check out our website. You know, we've got lots of information in the blog. We also have a self diagnostic tool pool. If you ask, if you answer six simple questions, you will recommend a skincare routine, a basic skincare routine for you. Um, but if you want some, you know, conversations with our team that we can actually make more of a personalized recommendations, you can always email us. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm active on LinkedIn, so always happy to discuss, always happy to talk skincare, top the industry and talk about business and our challenges. So yeah, my door is wide open.

Speaker C: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Jake. And guys, thank you for listening. If you've liked what you listened to today, do give us a like or review on the listening platform with Joyce and we'll be here again same time next week with the Econ Collab Club podcast. Cheers.

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