327: FROM THE TRENCHES / Turn your expertise into frameworks that build authority - with Susanna Reay

Speaker A: G'. Day. My name is Trevor Young and you're listening to Earn, uh, the Right. This is your audio platform for reputation based authority building, turning credibility into recognition and recognition into opportunity. Now, if you're a, uh, founder, an expert, a solo practice owner, someone who has earned their stripes and you're ready to amplify your voice with integrity, you're in the right place. And today's episode will be particularly relevant because it's all about turning your expertise into frameworks that build authority. So my guest today has spent years working with coaches and consultants and experts who know their work creates real transformation, but struggle to communicate it in a way that sticks. She has a new book out called Framework Thinking, which recently hit Amazon best seller status in the marketing and sales category. I'm genuine, genuinely excited about this one. Susannah Rae, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here and share with your audience.

Speaker A: Thanks for your time. You're coming to us from the uk, Susanna, if people haven't picked up on the accent thus far, but why don't you tell us, give us a little bit of a thumbnail sketch of what you're doing today and bit of your background so we've got a bit of context moving forward.

Speaker B: Yeah. As, uh, you say, I am British, I am living in the UK right now, but my background has actually been working around the world and living in multiple places. So I've lived in Switzerland and France and America and the uk. So working all along that way as a kid, I actually did also live in Sydney in Australia. So occasionally people go, oh, do I hear a bit of Australian in your accent? And that's normally my subconscious reflection. So apologies if sometimes that comes out because people say, oh, are you copying? I'm not. But this is where since 2002, because I was living and working around the world, I was connecting with lots of different service based business owners who were starting up, they're working online. So this is, you know, since 2002 and there was so much expertise I was coming across and, um, people were just feeling stuck. It's like that old analogy of you're stuck in your own jar and you can't read the label. And I'm like, no, I know I can help that. And something I've been doing ever since I was a kid is you don't get me without a pen and a paper in my hand. I'm always when someone starts talking, I'm, um, sketching out ideas, I'm exploring opportunities. How can they clarify what they do? And what they can bring out there into the world. So that sort of brought me into the online business support and entrepreneurial space because I was moving around and my Net network is very international as a result of being all over the place and then coming together, which has drawn me to my work's focus now on

Speaker C: the framework thinking piece.

Speaker B: But it is very much about helping

Speaker C: anyone who's in this business of transformation in some way, whether they're practitioners, trainers, coaches, consultants, designers, creatives.

Speaker B: Anyone who's like, doing a service for someone is so much harder, I think,

Speaker C: to sell than a product.

Speaker B: A product, you can hold it up and go, look, here it is, isn't it beautiful?

Speaker C: It does this.

Speaker B: A service is far more intangible. And I realized what I really love doing is making the intangible tangible and visible. And that's how I sort of stepped

Speaker C: into doing what I'm doing today.

Speaker A: Well, we've, we've got a fair bit to unpack now before we get into frameworks and framework thinking. Let's just talk about authority. Because I look at authority from my angle, you look at from your angle, so we'll probably meet in the middle. But why is building authority important today for expert founders and solo practice owners?

Speaker B: One of the biggest reasons I see here as well, and we're coming off the end of what I would probably call a 10 year love affair, uh, with a personal brand. And what I see authority means is building an authority brand, which is the layer on top of, of being a personal brand. So it's great to be the person people love to connect you. I'm, um, not dissing personal brands, but the reality of it is, is if all your authority is based around who you are just as a person and your personality and how much you're showing up and your visibility, that is really quite exhausting. So for me, authority comes when you bring in your proven experience, your case studies, and this is where I look at, well, what's your methodology? What's your proof behind you? Because I feel as well in the online business space there's a lot of charlatans out, um, there, uh, who claim like they've done one course by someone else and then they pretty much copy it and they go, yes, no, I'm great at this. Whereas for me, authority is proving your expertise and making it concrete and having foundations in that lived experience. And I see more people really wanting to see that. So authority is about. It's not just your personality, it's what can you do? What's your proof behind You. And if you've got genuine authority, it's not about being noisy, it's about just

Speaker C: holding your space and owning it. And people go, yeah, I'm going to listen to them because they've got experience behind them. And that's what authority means to me.

Speaker A: Yeah. And m. You know, authority, being an authority brand really is also a perception thing. You know, people either perceive you're either an expert, but if you're perceived as an authority and, and if you're not out there and, you know, uh, uh, we've spoken over the journey together, we know each other and, you know, the whole notion of, you know, there are so many really smart, savvy people with, you know, two, three decades of, you know, in the trenches experience, and they're the people we should be listening to and hearing from, but we don't. We hear from the charlatans and the hucksters and the wannabes and the opportunists, the loud ones who are happy to frame themselves as authorities and also say, we teach you to become an authority in 90 days. It's usually 90 days. I don't know. Wow, where did that come from? But it's perception, isn't it? I mean, but you've got to have the weight behind you. And I think we're getting very, I think the public people, particularly in B2B and business, when you, you know, you're after people and getting a consultant or a coach, you do your homework and now we've got AI to do extra homework and they can dig a little deeper. So, you know, don't just call yourself. It's the same as thought leadership really isn't. Don't call yourself a thought leader or, you know, an authority. I mean, that's. It's a perception thing. So this theme will come through today. But it was just good to unpack that and, you know, become an authority brand, I think, is a really good. What would you call it, an aspiration. But it does take work. So, and we're about to get into it, some of the types of work, the frameworks that you talk about. So I'll hold up the book, I'll hold up the book here. Just so for people on the podcast, you won't see this, but in, uh, on, um, when you go onto YouTube, you'll see this. It's Framework Thinking. The proper title is Framework Thinking Sketch scale. Bsought turn your expertise into frameworks that build authority by Susanna Ray. Now tell us, before we get too deep into the weeds on this, before we get into framework thinking. What is a framework? Can you unpack that for us, please?

Speaker B: Yeah, great, great question. And a framework for me is a method of connecting ideas to, together to make them easy to understand. And most importantly, I don't see a framework as necessarily a rigid structure. I always love to use the analogy more of an umbrella, that an umbrella has a central spine, it's got its spokes, it's got the fabric, it has the framework that holds it together. But then how you use it depends. Is it raining, is it sunshine? It is a beach umbrella. There's lots of different ways you can use it. So the framework is very much about how can you connect your ideas all together so others can make sense of them easily. And it can take many shapes and forms. There is no one fixed structure for a framework.

Speaker A: And so you're a visual person, so we'll get into breaking that down. Visual frameworks. But it's really, it's kind of people's ip, isn't it? But package articulated and packaged in such a way that others can understand it a lot easier than, you know, doing a white paper on it. You know, like it's, it's. Would you call, I guess it's not really a, uh, framework, but would you call a Venn diagram kind of like a framework? I mean it's a, it's a, it's kind of a basic framework of sorts.

Speaker B: It totally is if you're using it for ideas. You know, we all go back to primary school and go, how many red cars, blue cars, green cars and what's the intersection? And a lot of us was, was introduced to Venn diagrams in the maths sense. But if you use a Venn diagram for your ideas and say, well, actually it's a combination of impact and influence and another eye, I'm making this one up on Stop. And you're intelligent. Maybe it's not one that I generally use. I've got lots in my book that I do, but I'm always like coming

Speaker A: up with new ideas.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm always riffing and coming up with new ideas on this. So yes, a Venn diagram can be a framework for your intellectual property if your intellectual property is about pulling two or more ideas together. Though I do say that when it comes to vens, you don't really want more than four circles because otherwise it becomes a bit crazy. Yes. Trevor is now holding up, if you are on YouTube, my book open and I have one exercise that's uh, to try and discover who you are as a person and this is my three P's in a Venn diagram. And we look at your personality, your passion and your prowess. But for me, when we're looking at IP and it comes into frameworks, it's the intersections that are the most important elements.

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: And I see many people in the business space just seeing vens, uh, as the outer, like, more like pillars rather than the intersection. But it's where it all comes together that the magic happens. And if you've got a three circle ven, then it's what happens in the center. And it's really important to understand what happens when you're missing one of those elements.

Speaker A: Yep. Yeah. And. And what I found with. With frameworks, or even just brainstorming, and you put it into a more of a visual diagram and take people through a methodology on a whiteboard. It's so much so easier. So much easier. So, so much easy. Um, it's easier to explain complex, often complex pathways, ideas, concepts.

Speaker B: Very much so. And one of the things that we're doing there is we're spreading the cognitive load. And, um, I think today, when we're all bombarded with so many words and images and everything happening, the ability to simplify those complex ideas into a visual that then sticks in the brain is so important. And this sort of leads to the space that anyone who's a speaker, uh, is on stage or you've attended a conference and you've listened to experts, to authorities on stage. I am sure you'll recognize that moment now that the time that speaker, they bring a visual framework on stage, which is like the summary of the points they've been sharing. People have been kind of trained now, and they'll look at and go, oh, these are the main points. That's what I need to take away an outcome that cameras click. I'm going to capture that. And what you've done there as a speaker is just popped your business card into their back pocket because they're now remembering your key ip, like, what do you want them to take away? And it is that piece of them going, how can I simply remember this? So you're doing your audience a massive favor if you create a visual framework about your ideas.

Speaker A: Yeah. And another one, a simple one, can be a pyramid. You know, it's. It's a very similar one, but you've got ones. You've given them names, of course. Mary, the Mary Poppins, the Sweeping change method. You got a whole stack. Santa's Magical Delivery Framework, which is a pyramid. But this is not working for A podcast. So, um, I'll. I'll put that to one side.

Speaker B: I was gonna say Trevor's delved into. I've had a bit of fun in the book, and I've got some central. The book is full color and the central yellow pages. I had a, uh, bit of fun because I always have lots of people ask, like, well, can you share your examples you've done for your clients? Now, I'm dealing with intellectual property. And as much as I've got case studies within the book, I purposely don't show what their frameworks look like.1m. Because a great framework, even when they work with me, that's the start. It will be organic, it will evolve, it will change. So what I did in the center of the book, which. The ones you were just quoting, and people can go and hunt, um, these out, is I looked at fictional characters and thought, well, what would their frameworks look like? What is Santa's magical delivery method? And I go through the steps and Mary Poppins sweeping change, and I've got Robin Hood. So it was having fun with some fictional characters, stories that everyone knows, so they can see how you can translate that. But when clients come to me, I don't like them to have too many preconceived ideas, because for me, it's really, really important that your framework is grounded in your lived experience, the work you're already doing with your clients. Because we're not inventing them, we're uncovering the work you're already doing. And everyone has a framework inside of them. We just need to, like, dig it out. It's like the archaeologist going in and going, well, what are, uh, the patterns happening inside of this?

Speaker A: And hand in hand with that is particularly alliteration. I'm an alliteration fan. You are, too. Where all the words, you know, you might have four pillars or five pillars or five steps or whatever this method is. And it's, you know, it spells out something, so it's an acronym. You've got one called spark. Uh, or it's alliteration, where it's, you know, the five V's, or there's always a lot of six C frameworks that I see out there. But, uh.

Speaker B: And again, that's because it helps people remember.

Speaker A: It does. It's all about articulation. It's all about articulation and communication. So packaging. Sorry, I always say articulating, packaging, and communicating your ideas. So that's. That. That's frameworks, you know, in a broad, uh, broad nutshell. What about then Framework thinking, which is, you know the verb. How do you describe that? Is that one? Is that. Is that your IP framework?

Speaker B: It. It is indeed. I've registered framework thinking, so that's officially protected as a term for me and for my use and what I mean by framework thinking. And obviously I've got another visual here. This one's easier to describe for people listening is it's a triangle and we've got four triangles inside of it. Three, the what you might call the right way up and the one in the center fills the hole in the middle. Because for me framework thinking is about always thinking about four elements when you're looking at your work. And the first, which is at the top of this triangle is visual recognition. And that is because there is so much neuroscience research now behind how the importance of, of seeing visuals and we recognize visuals like 65,000 times faster than words, colors as well. If we can bring in the branding and make people instantly know this is yours, that is really important. And to do with the structure, the second element I talk about inside of framework thinking, which is the bottom left in the triangle, this one is impact detection. Because as I've already mentioned, inferred, we want to see where is the impact happening in your work? What are the shifts that are happening with your clients? And that is what we want to extract. It's not a simple, well, I tell you to do 1, 2, 3. It's more, well if you do action 1, 2, 3, what's the impact that is now happening as a result of doing that? And maybe after seven steps there's a real shift that happens inside the person. So impact detection is the second crucial element of framework thinking. The third bottom right, if anyone's watching on video, you'll see like my hands are floating all over the screen at this point. So the bottom right is about boundary setting. So many experts can struggle and this can lead to burnout when they try and do too many things and feel like, well, just because they can doesn't mean they should. So again, it's really important to decide what do you really want to be known for, for your intellectual property. So I can do many, many things, but I've honed down and gone. Framework thinking is that central element that I naturally do and pull together. So can I help people with their, ah, marketing, Can I help them write a book, can I help them design? I can do all that, but that's not where my gold is.

Speaker C: So I set the boundary inside of framework, uh, thinking.

Speaker B: And this brings me to the central upside down triangle in the middle, which is transfer integrity. And this is actually at, uh, the heart of framework thinking, which is why it sits very much in the center of the triangle. And even by describing this, I'm hoping listeners can see the importance of the structure as well, because the structure needs to reflect your values and how it all comes together. And transfer integrity is about how can your ideas, your ip, travel beyond you, beyond the room, and particularly in large organizations. And I did a training inside a internal comms team, because you've got a point. You might have strategic communications. You need to pass to the global manager, to the regional manager, to the manager on the shop floor, and then to the worker. Uh, and each time it's like the child's game of telephone. You know, when you whisper in someone's ear and you go down the line without having a visual, that message changes at, uh, every single step on the way. Whereas if we have it visualized, it becomes more like a printed business card that you're passing on. And people are still understanding. These are the key ideas. And yes, they can change the colors. The shades might sort of vary on how someone applies it, but you want that strong transfer integrity. And so when I'm helping people do framework thinking, we've got to think about how does that work outside the room. So this is where it steps beyond the personal brand, into the authority brand. Because then you can license your ip, you can franchise it, it can travel beyond you.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. And I guess if you saw. I, uh, I'm just thinking about a book that's big, that was sort of a framework, I guess was story brand. You may have heard of story brand. And that when you just said licensed, I think that that's licensed out as well. So Donald Miller, I think, is, uh, the author of that story brand. So yeah, there's, there's plenty of, um, examples of that. And look, frameworks don't have to be visual, but of course it's going to be a lot easier. And you're a visual person. I prefer to read and as I said, play on whiteboards with visuals, albeit no one can understand what I'm writing or drawing. You're more design focused than me, but it really is important. So even if you're not a visual person, what about if someone said, well, I'm not a visual person, I. How do I do this? You know, what's your rebuttal to that?

Speaker B: The joy of framework thinking. And I do go in depth in my book. I do have some actual exercises, but it's all based on really simple geometric shapes. We're not talking about extremely detailed illustrations here. Like we've spoken about the Venn diagram. You can have a pyramid with steps stepping up. Everyone can do this, every PowerPoint, you know, keynote, whatever you use, you can create this. You don't need to be an artist, you don't need to be a designer.

Speaker A: Canva. Use canva.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, you can use canva, you can use AI. Uh, but sometimes that makes it more complex than it needs to be because what we want to do is keep the shapes as simple as possible. And again, this is another neuroscience piece, um, of research. I'm a bit of a, you know, I read about lots of psychology. In fact, back way back when I was 18, I did my, um, A levels in the UK and one was psychology. So I've always had that interest. But again, there's a psychological concept about when you're bringing out new ideas, you need to base it on a safe construct. So it's this combination of something being new with safe. And this is why I recommend that when you're developing your IP into visual frameworks, we want to use recognizable shapes and structures. So if someone sees that, then they go, I know that piece. But the new piece is, what are you putting inside of it? Uh, what's your ideas? So you've got that existing structure to then hang the hat on. And this is why they work really well. Yes, you can expand and create new shapes and that's more advanced framework thinking. But for getting started, particularly if people go, oh, I'm not visual, I can't do this. Yes, you can. I've, um, got simple two by two matrices, you've got circular frameworks. If you're more iterative in terms of how you work, simple is best when it comes to this.

Speaker C: I don't want people to make things complex.

Speaker A: The back of a napkin in a cafe while you're having coffee.

Speaker B: Yes. And in fact, through my book, I've sort of updated it a little. I'm not sure how many napkins are around so much these days, but, ah, in fact, on your desk, uh, most people have sticky notes. They've like got an idea. And I do say your framework should be something simple enough to draw on a small sticky note. You know, the ones that are like 3 inch 10cm square if you can't draw it on that. And I'm not talking about making your writing super teeny weeny either. I'm like, really? You want under five steps? Seven. Absolutely maximum. Again, this is about your Cognitive load of your audience. Yes, between three and seven is ideal because that's all people can remember and you're doing yourself a favor. It's easy for you to remember as well, to take people through. So I've got the four elements of framework thinking and my spark process which is based on S, P, A, R, K, which is five steps. But that again it's easy for people to go, okay, I'm ah, at this place in time, we don't want to overload people.

Speaker A: And it's really about transformation, isn't it? What we're saying is this is my method of getting you from here to here and anyone in this service based or expert based, expertise based businesses, people come to them for a result, for a uh, transformation. And really is it fair to say that your framework is, this is how we will help you get the transformation you're after? Would that be fair?

Speaker B: Very much so. I see it as the map that you're placing in front of your prospects. And I, uh, equally. Another great analogy, I love analogies because again they stick in people's heads, is you think of a tourist map over an OS map. An OS map has absolutely all the details and that's what you would know behind the scenes on how you facilitate the transformation. Whereas a tourist map goes here, the top five sites you need to see in the city, here's where you should totally avoid. So you just want to know like I've got one day in the city, what should I visit? That is what your tourism app does. That is what your framework, your authority framework, which for me is your overriding framework of the steps you take people through. Now once people get into framework thinking they can have loads of little sub frameworks that will go below that. So inside the self center stage, which is the first stage of my spark process, yes, there's an overriding. But in that, uh, I've got multiple exercises and me being me, I've got subframeworks that sit below that because that is why people come to me, they love the visual thinking, they like to have those uh, templates. So I always go, there's this difference between what's your overarching framework that captures your ip, the one you would talk about on stages, the one you would write your book about. But I'm not saying you need to put everything in there because we can all get hit by the complexity curse. And that's where you have these crazy flow diagrams with million and one things in there and it blows everyone's brains.

Speaker A: It's what you Leave out is um often more important than what you put in which is strategy. Which is strategy. And to a degree a framework is a strategic framework. Isn't is a strategy. Would it be fair to say too and this is for people that have got a lot of experience, expertise as you can do lots of different things and that tends to be an issue for them because they become not known for any one thing. This actually is a Trojan horse doing a framework to improve your marketing. And mark by marketing I say you know what's your, what's the one thing you're known for? Or you become niche in a well known or built in authority positioning in one one idea or one thing. Would that be fair?

Speaker B: Very very accurate in the essence that and this is why in the self and the Venn we mentioned about the passion, prowess and personality and looking at bringing together that what I do see is when people are polymaths and multi passionate and do many things there's normally an underlying red thread thread that connects everything together. And it's more how do you approach that in your marketing? Like why are people coming to you for that reason? Because everyone is so unique. But again as you say for your marketing people want to hear just one thing simply and all the names who are very well known they normally got there because I mean you've already mentioned Donald Miller and story brand because he spoke so Story brand, Story brand, Story Brand. Like he went around the world. That is all he talked about. It's not the only thing he can do. I um, absolutely can guarantee that. But that is what he's known for. So he wrote his book on that and then that gives you the opening into other opportunities.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah that's that and that's from a position point of view. So that's macro. Now you, you've I think I read somewhere you talk about your position is framework first, visibility second. Which is kind of, I guess it's a counter argument to a lot of authority building advice out there. Some of it not so great which is be visible, be everywhere. You're saying hang on, pump the brakes, get your framework right and then, and then hit the visibility accelerator. But that is. Did I have I read that right?

Speaker B: You have read that, right? I'm slightly contrarian in this because yes, a lot of people go oh yeah, you've got to get out there, you've got to get visible. But I have come across far too many business owners that I can count who've been burnt out and overwhelmed by thinking they've got to do all the things and then when you talk to them, they're not really sure what their thing actually is. Yeah, and this is where I absolutely say foundational level for any business, that owner do the one to one work because what I see with a lot of people, they go, oh, passive income, I just want to run courses or I want to do this magical thing that means I don't need to be anywhere. But there's that grounded one to one work when you get started. There is nothing like being face to face with your client, understanding their real issues, what's going on and facilitating real transformation. So for me that is the ground level everyone should do first. And yes, you need a little bit

Speaker C: of visibility based around that obviously to get those clients. But absolutely, I'm then after that point, don't think about courses, speaking, books, any of this memberships until you've worked out your framework because otherwise it's a lot of wasted effort.

Speaker B: And I see people just rolling around

Speaker C: in this visibility trap that they just go, oh, I've got to get out there. And the moment they stop, then everything disappears and they go, well my sales have run dry because I got really busy and therefore I stopped marketing because they didn't know what their thing was. And um, they can go around that for absolutely years. So this is why I say framework first, visibility second. In terms of when you want to go, I want to be known for your authority. Back to the, the start of our conversation. To get known for an authority, you've got to know what your IP is, what is special about you and a framework helps you define that.

Speaker A: That's a very good point. And, and you know, we're talking about really anyone. I mean, I guess there's some businesses out there where it doesn't apply to. But you know, when you stop and think about, you know, whether it's management consulting or I don't know, accounting or law or something like that, even law, where there's such processes already in place. Do you think, uh, framework thinking works in, in those types of vocations? Uh,

Speaker B: absolutely. I have actually worked with some accountants, crypto investors, financial advisors, when you get into very structured like law obviously has its own very fixed structure that every lawyer has to work within. So it's harder in that space. But there's a lot of professional spaces again that they need to share, well, why am I going to accountant A over accountant B? What do they do that's different? And having frameworks to show what that sequence is because, and in fact I know a family lawyer quite well, and she was going to like, no frameworks can really help me even just to explain. And this is going, to your marketing point, explain what is the process that we go through. So it's like drawing that map. So as much as the expert, uh, they know, yes, I do this, this,

Speaker A: this and this, that's how they do it. And the process, it's a, everyone wants to know, if I engage you, what's the process we will go through? And really this is a great way of articulating and, and visually showing a process.

Speaker B: It's about managing the expectations in a simple way. Because anyone who is an expert, their client, like experts, get really hung up on the how, like this is how I do it and let me share everything. And then it's like they're fire hosing their prospect because the prospect doesn't actually care about that. As you've said, it's the result, the transformation at the end. And all they want to know is, well, if I'm so say if I'm working with a family lawyer and I'm going through a divorce, but we've got kids and it's more complex and how do we deal with that? They just want to know what are the key milestone moments along this journey? Working with you that I can go, yes, I've got here, I'm now moving to the next step. They want to know when are those shifts and transformations happening so they can feel that they're moving forwards. And ultimately any service business owner, whether it's a lawyer, an accountant, a life coach, it's about moving people smoothly to the result. And they don't care about your, how you do it. So I come across like practitioners who always talk about the modalities, like, uh, it's eft or you know, tapping. And they're really into their modality. And I'm like, that's not what your clients. They just want the result. If your tool gives them the result.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I guess the other, the thing is with, in terms of, you know, uh, giving people showing, you know, unveiling your ip, you know, a lot there was times gone by where, oh, you don't show anyone your ip, you don't talk about anything but you know, they're not going to go off and do it. But if, you know, if they can see that you've got structure there and you know, they can see it visually or you can walk them through the process really simply and this is how we get your transformation. Okay, Tick. I don't know the rest of It, I'm not going anywhere else and try and do it myself. You've got the structure. Fantastic tick. That's public, that's fine, fantastic. But, uh, you're going to do it for me.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's that piece about the IP that some people do. They go, oh, you know, I can't put it out in the world. And this is where I talk about your authority framework being that overarching umbrella, which absolutely you want to put out in the world. You want to own that, like Donald Miller's story brand. You want to know my framework thinking. That is Susanna Ray's thing. Someone can look at that. And even in my book, I take you through an exercise for each of those five steps. But there's another 10 exercises I go through with my clients to get the real depth. And it's the difference between showing people the possibility and where impact happens. And I've got key high impact exercises in the book purposely because I know if people then do that and then they get stuck and go, right, I need your help. You can, but if they're, uh, free thinkers, action takers can take that and run with it. I'm like, brilliant. If that is all you needed to make an impact in your business, that makes me very happy. And the point about IP is as much as like, framework thinking is my registered trademark, but it's the process I go through is unique to me. And people might go, oh yeah, I can do bits of that, but they're

Speaker C: never going to do it in the same depth. And the ultimate protection for your IP is actually then getting visible, owning it, sharing it, talking about it lots, because that is what protects it. And then you end up, um, actually having fans that I've had people then say to me like, oh, I saw someone else talk about exactly your thing. And I've had to send them like a subtle little email going a cease and desist, please. And then they do, because you then

Speaker B: have your sort of fans and followers being those eyes to help protect your ip. Because going through court and doing it that way, incredibly expensive, long winded, is far better. Just owning it and getting known for it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And let's be fair, in all of these topics, there's a million people all talking about, in and around the same stuff. But the moment you put it into a framework and make that out there, then you're right, that does make it yours. It doesn't mean that the words you use, other, uh, people can't use those words. But maybe accept framework thinking. But in terms of you know, it does have that layer of protection because you've, you've taken it another step further and really, I mean all copyright is, it really is, is you've added value to your idea. And to my mind, a framework is, or a method is and, or a process that you've articulated and packaged and communicated is value, added value. Just before we drop off that sort of thread that we had, what are some other people that you've worked with? Just to give people a feel. We talked, you know, about a family lawyer and you know, accountants can do it and stuff like that. What are some other people you've worked, worked with and how they've sort of come out of the process. Don't have to give names or anything. I just want to get a flavor for the, the broad spread of people who could really get value out of creating a framework around their expertise.

Speaker B: So I have worked with a real wide range of industry based professionals because to be honest, that really excites me. I don't go into one niche. So I've worked with leadership trainers, people who go in and talk into corporates and they help them with leadership teams or mindset management. They all have a framework. I've worked with interior designers who are trying to stand out and say, well, what is unique about how they work or their style, what they're bringing into the home. I've worked with business coaches and marketeers as well, trying to stand out from the crowd. Okay, how is that different? I've worked with a travel consultant who helps in the travel industry and this is one of the case studies that goes through the book is she does life coaching and corporate training very specifically for the travel industry because there's unique, there's a unique lexicon even in that industry. So pulling the various elements together. I've even worked with an animal communication expert, a voice healer. I mean honestly, this is why I say if you're in the business of transformation and service, a framework can help you. They really are for everyone in that space.

Speaker A: In that space.

Speaker B: So yeah, it really is broad and I actually, if someone thinks and they're listening, it's like, ah, I bet Susanna couldn't help me like connect with me on LinkedIn, send me a message and go, do you think it's possible for framework thinking in this space? And I'm always up for a challenge. And that's why I love exploring different industries. And it's something. A long time ago I worked with a company in the States and they were very much, it was about a new Technology and it was moving things in real time online. And the guy who had started this startup said to me, it's like, I can't believe how fast you understand what I'm trying to do and then bring it together in a logical way so we can market it. And that was kind of the start of this journey because people like money, mindset coaches, psychologists, I've worked with so many variety of people that I don't believe, long as you help people facilitate a transformation, I believe framework thinking can benefit your business.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's your superpower, being able to take all that and just spit it out into a, you know, a process or something. Framework. A framework. I just wanted to. I read you. You talked about hiding the Mona Lisa in the basement. Not literally. Or maybe it was literally.

Speaker B: No, it wasn't literal.

Speaker A: You're a very rich woman. You have got a. An artwork in the basement.

Speaker B: A very good burglar.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or maybe I'm just in the Louvre like those guys the other year who just put a ladder up the outside, walked in, took the stuff and exited.

Speaker A: Like, how hard could it be? Have they ever been. Have they ever been caught? I'm not so sure they were.

Speaker B: I'm not sure. But that was the most hilarious article ever that I read.

Speaker A: As an aside, as a real aside, I did love the. Because they did have a, uh, like an extendable ladder, like off a. Off a back of a truck. Wasn't it the company that they use, like the brand name of the ladder, the Extendable Ladder or whatever, they did an ad the next day or a couple of days later promoting the fact it was classic.

Speaker B: That is good marketing.

Speaker A: That is very tactical, very quick, very nimble. I, uh, had to. And very shareable. People were sharing it all over the place. That went viral. Hiding the Mona Lisa in the basement. Now, this is about people that you've seen a lot of brilliant experts. They've got real depth, they've got, you know, best practice thinking. But their ideas and all of this is that that side of things they're thinking is invisible. It's in the basement.

Speaker B: Very much so. In the sense that. And I think this is the protectionism piece that we mentioned about ip that people feel. I can't share that because that, that's my thing. That's what's special. And if I share it, people are going to steal it. And this is what happened to me and why I call it my Mona Lisa moment is this happened to me back in 2022 and I was running my mastermind with my clients, and it was all about helping them so set up and sell their things online. And it was one of those sessions that, again, and I think this is a great story to people to lean into, stop doing what you think you should be doing and start just sharing what you are doing. Because in this session, I was like, oh, but I've learned that you're just meant to have, like, Q and A, and your clients come and ask you questions, and then you go through, you give advice and bring it out. But then in this particular session, one of my clients came to me. Oh, I'm doing all the things, but it's like I'm speaking a foreign language and people just say thank you very much and goodbye. And, um, it suddenly clicked in my head, like, oh, I've never shared my client archetype framework that I do all the time to segment and acknowledge and understand who my clients are, uh, for me. And I'd never shared this with my clients, but I had lots of examples over the years. So in that session, I then went, hey, do you want me to mix this up? I can show you this technique that I use for myself. At the end of that session, there was, like, grins all around the room. The energy was off the charts, and people were like, susanna, why have you not told us this before?

Speaker C: There was literally, I was being berated by my own clients for not sharing that. And that's where I say it was like I was hiding the Mona Lisa in the basement and not telling anyone she was there. Uh, and it was from my clients that I then brought that, uh, forward and started talking far more about frameworks. They were hidden in various trainings. I still use them, but I hadn't named them. And I think it's that aspect of. Of naming it that really shows the importance. And so that is why I now do that for the experts who come to me, because they've got their own Mona Lisa hidden in the basement.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And we need to just bring that

Speaker C: forward and understand what it is. And in fact, one of my other

Speaker B: recent clients is a widow coach. And she came into this because she went through the process of widowhood and then was like, there's got to be a better way. She didn't like the traditional way of the grief process that everyone knows. And she was like, there's got to be a different way. And then when she came to me and we were talking through, I realized that there was a huge element and it was around the language that changes and adapts as you go through the grieving process. And that has now become the foundation for her framework, which is the Sunflower M Method framework. And at the end of the session, she was like, no, this is way better. This is like the 2026 version of grief, and this works. But we only came to that because it was through understanding, well, what is the process you've gone through, the process you've helped widows through in the last three years, what do you see is changing? And this is why I talk about. You need to look at where is the impact and the shifts happening in your work. And inside the book, I've got one exercise called the Architecture Map that's under, um, P for Premise, to help people see where are those impacts?

Speaker C: Because it's not as straightforward. What are the actions?

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker B: What is. Where's that change happening?

Speaker C: And that is going to be linked to your Mona Lisa, uh, in the basement, like, what are you hiding? That is really shifting people? Because you'll be doing something unique and different that makes a huge difference to your clients. And that's the thing we need to uncover.

Speaker A: Yeah, and you've mentioned it a couple of times. And something that's incredibly important, the fact you naming it gives it, makes it tangible, you know, yes, there's a visual, but without the visual, without the name, is only half done. And the other important part of it, and we haven't actually even touched on it, and we won't go too deep into it, it's a story. It's a story because it's around transformation and it's a process. And you walk people from A to B, it's a story. And, you know, you can imbue your story with examples and your own experiences. And the moment you've got a story, you've got a narrative, it becomes so much easier. Whether you're, uh, talking to someone at a barbecue or you're talking to people at a conference or on a podcast or doing a presentation, that story becomes your signature story.

Speaker B: Very much so. And I would say the elements inside your framework are those story beats.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, absolutely.

Speaker B: Core elements that you're dancing from. And therefore, when you are speaking, you've got a natural structure. You don't need to memorize a script. You've got those story beats. You internalize what you're based upon. So there's no fear about, like, oh, what am I going to say?

Speaker A: Say it's authentic. It's authentic. And it compounds as. As you, you know, you get better at it. You, as you tell it a lot of different ways. But it's still the spirit of the, the spirit of the same story. Um, just going back to that, you know, you're hiding your Mona Lisa in the basement and, and your ideas that are not out there and stuff like that. And a lot of it is, yes, there's the hiding of the ip, but a lot of it is also the, the curse of knowledge people have. And a friend of the podcast, Tom Schwab from Interview Valet, he was on a few episodes ago, he's got a saying where what's, you know, what's not important or what's boring to you is really interesting to someone else. And, and which means that, you know, we live with these ideas and concepts and stuff and we probably think there's nothing to them, but to someone else who's never heard it before, it's a. Aha moment. And I really love that, you know, that concept and uh, but maybe hiding the Mona Lisa in the basement's a better way to tell that story.

Speaker B: Well, I had to turn it into the art world because I went to art school before business school. So a lot of my analogies in the book, even I referenced theatre and drama. I'm a very creative soul. So I think we all pick up on our own phrases that connect with us.

Speaker C: It's that authenticity piece that you mentioned.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Yes, indeed. Okay, so the book is framework thinking. Turn your expertise into frameworks that build authority. And there is a hard back like we haven't got time today. But Susanna, you know, has published this as all good entrepreneurs do. She's uh, the publisher of it. But it's, it's an amazingly, you know, like, it's not like most self published books. It's really high quality, high quality visuals and uh, a hard copy as well. So really good stock. I'm getting very visual on a podcast. But you know, there's, you've, there's a lot of effort having, you know, produced books before, but not to this scale. It's, it's very well worth having on your bookshelf, albeit it's a square, it's a square book.

Speaker B: It is a square, square book. And that was purposely chosen. Everything in my world is designed purposely. And one of these reasons, whether it's the paperback or the hardback, I'm holding up the hardback, but by being square, it can m. Sit flat and open on your desk because as I mentioned and for Those on the YouTube, they'll see me holding up that there's exercises and I wanted the width of the book on the pages, but when you have a normal book shape, you kind of have to hold it open. Whereas I don't want this to sit on your bookshelf, I want it to sit on your desk and actually be actioned and bring it forward. So it's very much an action orientated book. There's an online book resource hub as well. So the architecture map, which is such an important exercise, I've actually got a video walkthrough of that inside the hub that you can access access through the QR code in the book as well. Because if there's one exercise I want people to do from reading the book is to do that, to understand where are those impacts you create and where are the shifts in your work. If you don't understand those, it's hard to create a framework.

Speaker A: Yep. Awesome speaking with you, Susanna. Uh, your Susanna Ray. R E A Y. If you, if people want to follow you and connect with you on LinkedIn and challenge you in the DMs, and if you like, go to. What is it? Susannaray.com yes, is my main website.

Speaker B: Or if you're struggling with the spelling of my name, frameworkthinking.uk will take you to my M book page as well. So that's an easier one sometimes for people to spell.

Speaker A: Terrific. Thank you very much. Uh, appreciate your time.

Speaker B: Thanks. It.