324: FROM THE TRENCHES / One identity, many channels: Multi-Platform personal branding - with Courtney Kocak

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: My name is Trevor Young and welcome to Earn the Right. This is the audio platform for reputation based authority and all that entails. And we're here to help you turn your hard earned credibility into recognition and that recognition into opportunity for your brand. Today's track is from the trenches. This is where I chat with experienced operators, is about what's working in pr, uh, content marketing, communications. It's a big landscape. And my guest in the virtual studio today, her name is Courtney Kosak and she is an author, a podcaster, a comedian, a screenwriter and a teacher. All the things she's written for Amazon's Emmy winning award, Danger and Eggs, uh, Netflix's Know it all, and outlets including New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, Business Insider, Cosmopolitan, and a host of more. But speaking of hosts, she also hosts podcast Private Parts Unknown, which has over 2 million downloads to date. Courtney. But you also got a lot of other podcasts as well. Yeah, but I'll let you explain it because what I want today to be about is, you know, a lot of people have been told to pick a lane, stay in your lane, have one idea, you know, be known for one thing. And, and you are definitely the antithesis of that. And there are a lot of people who've got ideas and projects and they want to be. How do I cohesively work them all together? So can you tell us your story first? Cause you've also just released a book which we'll get into. Can you just give us a bit of a thumbnail sketch that we can dovetail from the things that you're doing currently, the projects?

Speaker A: Yeah, I started as an actor and then I pivoted to writing like when I was 27. And so I tried a lot of things. You know, I started writing to create opportunities for myself as an actor and that meant screenwriting, that meant writing sketches. I started a, uh, comedy podcast soon after I had made the pivot. I started writing essays, which ultimately is what led to the book. And I hated that pick a lane advice. It just didn't feel natural. I didn't know, I didn't know yet exactly what I wanted to be. And ultimately, you know, I am, um, multi, passionate, creative. And so, you know, I do think there is a little bit of wisdom to like, you know, if you double down on something, you can probably get where you're trying to go faster. But I don't think that is everyone's path. And in today's kind of creator economy type entertainment industry and media landscape, having multiple revenue streams just makes a Lot of sense. So today I, you know, I write articles on a freelance basis. I just wrote a book. Girl Gone Wild is my debut memoir. I hope to write a number of other books over the next decade or so. I host three podcasts. I still always have my hands on some kind of screenwriting project at all times. And I do stand up comedy. And yeah, I teach people how to do all of it. In fact, I just taught a class, I just taught a class called the Multi Passionate Writer's Life. So I'm so ready to talk about this topic.

Speaker B: Fantastic. And I guess when, you know, there's so much noise around personal branding and as I mentioned earlier, they, you know, they do talk about that. Pick a lane and, you know, so that you could focus and everything. So we're going to go veer right off that path. Yeah, but a lot of very few creators, even those that are probably are doing a lot of things. What they don't pull off, I think is this, I'm going to call it a, uh, it's a very marketing speak, a multi channel ecosystem where all your various formats seem to do a specific job. You know, your podcasts run through, you know, you've got substack for newsletters, you've got your writing, but everything seems to stack into the other. But you're not known. If, if I asked you what were you known for, what would you, what would you say?

Speaker A: I don't know. I would like to say, you know, soon. I would like it to be, you know, as my work as an author, but I don't want to be solely known for my work as an author. And I've worked really hard to not, you know, I used to kind of try to silo my Personas a little bit more. Like this is stand up, um, me, and this is podcast producer me, and this is screenwriter me. And that's a lot of extra headspace that is kind of a waste of time. And I just. The brand is me. The brand is me. And you'll, however you find me, through whatever channel I want you to find my other work. And so I make it all, you know, on my Instagram, I'm promoting everything on there because there's no reason for me to, to silo the, the different. Like I want it to be an ecosystem.

Speaker B: Did that happen organically? I mean, did you. And, and I know quite a few people who are, they run their own business, but they're also creators to a large degree and they, they stack this onto this and they evolve and they became known for this, but, you know, they don't want to become a blogger forever, so they go into podcasting. And, yeah, you know that when you look in the rear view mirror, you can kind of see the path. But it was probably more of an organic evolution with you. Did you get to a point where I've got all of these things? I'm probably confusing people. Uh, like you said, having a. In. In air quotes, a Persona for. For. For each medium, I guess that can be quite, you know, can wear you down a little bit. So did it take time to get to that point? And you just said, oh, my Lord, all this is unraveling. How do I bring it together? Was there a strategic play there?

Speaker A: I think I got tired of, you know, I would say. I would say this was happening maybe around 2020, 2021, when I was like, I don't want to pretend to be one kind of person for the people that I produce podcasts for and hide these other elements, whatever. So I. It was just. It was just born out of exhaustion. And then, you know, as I started teaching 2020, 2021 as well, and teaching, it really makes sense, you know, that I think really nudged me in the ecosystem direct direction more than I had been before. Because, you know, a lot of people that like my art, you know, also are creative souls and they want to find, you know, they have aspirations as well, and I want them to find my classes. And so it just, I guess it was, you know, a little bit more of a business decision at that point. You know, the reason that I started Podcast Bestie, which is my biggest substack, is that I was teaching, uh, podcasting. I started teaching podcasting even before I started teaching writing, and I felt like I don't have a way to stay in touch with my students after the class is over. Like, I have more that I want to teach them, and I also have more that I want to learn from other people about the craft of podcasting. And so I started that newsletter to learn from other people and to stay in touch with my students. And then it wound up turning into its own whole thing. And that really informed how I approached the Bleeders, which is about book writing and publishing and also feeds into my writing classes. And so I would say that experience of starting Podcast Bestie really helped click, like, oh, how I want the ecosystem to work.

Speaker B: So just for people's background, you've got three podcasts. You've just mentioned a couple of them. Can you give us a rundown on each one?

Speaker A: Yeah. So I had a podcast called Reality Bites that I started in 2016, which evolved into what is now called Private Parts Unknown. And that's my longest running podcast. It's been going for a decade now, and it's my largest audience in terms of a, uh, podcast. And I, you know, because I have this dedicated audience and because I have ad obligations, I show up there every single week. Like, I do not miss a week. I also have.

Speaker B: That covers. That covers sort of sex and culture and.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's gender and. Yeah, uh, I. I allowed it to evolve. And so the scope is. Is broader, but it's. You know, it started I was a frustrated dater, and so we were talking about kind of dating issues. And then I met my now husband right after starting the podcast. And so I kept having conversations about relationships, about reproductive rights, about feminism. So it's all related to love and sexuality. But I, uh, take that interpr. Pretty broadly.

Speaker B: Yep. Okay. And then you've got the Bleeders.

Speaker A: Yeah. Actually, what came next was Podcast Bestie, which is on Substack, is where I host both the newsletter and the podcast. And I just want to say, as a tip to people, it was really smart. Even though it's a little bit counterintuitive that I launched the newsletter about podcasting before I launched the podcast. The podcast. It was very smart that I did that because I had this warm email list of people that I could launch the podcast to. So I. I did the newsletter for a year, then I went paid, and then six months later, I launched the podcast part of it. And so that allowed it to. To grow really nicely. And, you know, the newsletter aspect is. Takes less production time. And so it was nice that I, I kind of grew. Grew before I added that next element. And then, yes, I have the Bleeders, which is about book writing and publishing and just kind of the writer's life more broadly. And that is on Substack. I also have podcast part of it that I host on Spreaker, and that very much feeds into my, you know, the writing classes that I teach as well. Yeah.

Speaker B: And of course, you know, you are a, um, you've probably prior to that, you're and still are screenwriter and. And write for freelance for pretty. Some pretty major titles. Yeah, that was. That was some of the earlier stuff, and that set the scene for other things.

Speaker A: Sorry, say that again.

Speaker B: Oh, was that. Were you. You were. I. I think you said before you. You. You were writing first, and then you started podcasting and everything.

Speaker A: So I started my writing journey with screenwriting, probably started like 2010 fall of 2010 and then March of 2011 is when I wrote that first non academic essay of my adulthood. So, like, you know, I was screenwriting around at the beginning and then moved into essay writing and then was kind of doing both of them all the. As much as I could and have been ever since.

Speaker B: Yeah. So the stuff you write for magazines, etc. You'd call that essay writing?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, typically, some of it is a little bit more journalistic and I occasionally do reported stuff, but a lot of my work is essayistic. Yeah.

Speaker B: And you said that you had one viral one with Cosmopolitan walk through that essay. How, how viral did it go? And was that what led to your book deal?

Speaker A: No, you know, it's just a, uh, sentence in my book. Actually, I have another book project that I hope to sell that's related to that. It. How viral. I. Last I checked, which was maybe three years ago when I was working on a book proposal, it was hundreds of thousands. And so, yeah, it had a. It had a good audience and I'm sure it's probably close to doubled since then. So. Yeah.

Speaker B: So what led. Led to. So you've recently released your memoir. So you're a memoirist. Is that, is that a term memoir?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Girl Gone Wild. Walk us through that. How did that come about? And who. How did you get that book out if you got. You got a publisher for that?

Speaker A: Yes, I do. I'm, um. I published with Trio House Press, which is a small press out of Minnesota, which is my home state where I grew up, and so kind of felt faded that it worked out like that. Yeah, the dream to write memoir started kind of when I wrote that first essay. I was immediately hooked. I was like, I love this. I started reading a bunch of, you know, other memoirs. Cheryl Strayed's Wild, Lydia Yukonovich's Chronology of Water. And I was like, these are amazing. I want to write my own memoir someday. But I really had to take the time. You know, like I wished at that point, you know, I could write a book within five years. But I. The book wasn't. The book wasn't coming on that schedule. I was publishing essays. You know, I started placing those essays kind of right away, but there's so much to learn from each of the editors that I published with. And I'm so grateful for those experiences because writing an essay is a small part, a little piece of writing the book. And, you know, my book contains 43 essays or whatever, so I really allowed myself and. And sometimes despite myself, I took the time to develop my craft. And then I really started in earnest working on my book in 2020. And that's where I started to think about it a little holistically and really seriously about how this would come together. And, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's out.

Speaker B: And it's out.

Speaker A: It's out. It worked.

Speaker B: In terms of the book, was a lot of repurposed essay work that you'd already done, um, or you wrote it from scratch?

Speaker A: No, I didn't write it from scratch. I think the memoir and essays format, like structure, is the best first book format for a memoirist because you can kind of collect these pieces that you've been working on along the way. But nothing was published in the same way that it was originally. You know, you have extra perspective. That's another thing. With publishing the book, I really had to grow into my wisdom as a person and, like, have enough life experiences that it made sense to finish the book or that the book could, say, say more than it would have said 10 years ago. And so, yeah, I started that first year that I worked on it. I. I collected kind of everything that I had up to that point. And I was searching for what is the thematic spine of this book, what is, you know, and what is the. The plot of it. And so I did some trial and error. I quickly kind of landed on this Girl's Gone Wild experience as the title essay. I loved Girl Gone Wild, and I felt like it kind of exemplified some other experiences that I'd had. And then I got some feedback from a writing instructor and some classmates, and they were like, all of your work is so feminist, which I did not even realize was happening. And then there were a bunch of, uh, different stories that I was writing at the time that were about trying to make it in Hollywood. And so I really kind of landed on yes, that Girls Gone Wild experience was part of my quest to make it in Hollywood. I think of the book thematically as an unwitting feminist coming of age. It's all these experiences that taught me what society thinks about women and what I wanted to do with that information. And so as soon as I kind of landed on what is the book About? It was a lot easier for me to decide this doesn't go in the book anymore. You know, like, I can rip out all this whole extra theme. This thing about a best friend breakup. Doesn't make sense in here. And then I could really make a lot more strategic decisions about what should actually go in the book.

Speaker B: Yeah. And. And it's a good tip. There Also for, for people who probably aren't writing a memoir, they might be writing a non fiction book, but if you're out there writing a newsletter or a blog or even, you know, you've got a regular podcast, you, you're creating content along the way that content can be used. I remember one of Australia's biggest bloggers many years ago and he had an incredibly successful blog about teaching people how to blog. But everyone kept saying to him, oh, you should do a course, you should do a course. And he's saying, it's all in my blog for free. And they said, you still should do a course. So he spent 15 minutes sort of every day over coffee putting all the content together, which was already there. And I think if I recall, he made 70 grand in his first week by selling it. So good for him, which was already available. And that's, you know, you know, no one's, very few people are going to go and search for absolutely every essay, all your work you've done, and by curating it and rewriting it and pulling it together, that's, that's an absolute game changer, I think, because you put it, you've got an artifact now which is a book which, you know, kicks along everything else that you do.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally. And that is valuable to do for people because, you know, you feel like if you're doing all these interviews, you've absorbed, you know, you've absorbed everything that you've heard, but everybody hasn't been on that same journey with you and they do kind of need you to walk them through what are the big lessons here.

Speaker B: And so, yeah, and so going back to earlier, you saying you've built sort of your personal brand, people follow you. Do you have people who cross over from the podcast world to the writing world to the, you know, they follow you across 1, 2, 3, 4, the super fans that follow you across every format. Yeah. Do you, do you obviously find that is the case and that they pop up across multiple channels?

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. You know, substack's like built in infrastructure, makes that pretty easy. You know, I can see when people subscribe to, you know, all my newsletters recommend each other and so I can see when people subscribe to one of them, two of them, three of them, you know, all of them, them. And so, you know, there are a number of people that want it all and I love that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Just for people who haven't been on Substack, it's, it's, well, it's becoming a multimedia platform really, where you can do it. As Courtney says, a, um, podcast, you can do live streams, you can add video in, but it's. It's. Initially, it was done for writers, and that's still its mainstay. I'm starting to see people have got a couple of different. You know, I saw some of the other had four sub stacks, which is a pretty fair effort. How many of you got three, two?

Speaker A: I know I have four. I would not recommend that. One is. One is my. One is like my personal one. And then I have one for each of my podcasts. I always tell my students, like, if I were starting over today, you know, it makes sense for me because the podcasts are individually branded, it makes sense to have the related substack, so it's not confusing for people. But if I were just starting and I was architecting with everything, I knew today I would start one substack. The beauty of substack is you can host multiple podcasts under one account, and you can separate but keep your email list together. That would be ideal. And I think there's so many great things that you can experiment with on substack. So, like, if you don't even want to start a podcast, but you want to have conversations with people, do a substack live series and, like, see where that takes you.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's. And it's. That's the exploration now. I mean, writers now are becoming podcasters. Podcasts becoming writers are becoming live streamers, people doing video and YouTube and across. Was that when you started branching out into different formats? Was that just experimentation? I mean, you're clearly a very curious person. I think even in the book, you. You talk about that curiosity and. And that side of things. How. How. I think you call it rabid curiosity, if I recall.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is that the driver for you?

Speaker A: Yes, I am a curious person, but I just think, you know, I started podcasting as a vehicle for comedy. Like, it wasn't. I wasn't trying to find podcasting. I was just looking for a cheaper way to make a show that wasn't a web series. And so I just got really lucky with podcasting that I sort of found it. It wasn't the very first wave, but it was like, right around cereal. So, like, podcasting was still really growing. It was like 2013. And, you, uh, know, once I realized, like, what I could do with that medium, I wanted to explore a lot of different things. I still. There's so many podcasts that I have not yet produced that I want to, and I think it's incredible. I also think, you know, it's kind of underrated as, you know. Yes. I have been able to monetize my co. My podcast to a certain extent, and that's great, but it's underrated as just like a networking tool.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: You know, the reason that I started the Bleeders was because I was like, I want to figure out how to write and publish this book. I cannot ask people to pick their brain for free. But I can start a podcast and I can talk to them and I can make it a public thing and, you know, share this information with other people and then they will be happy to let me, uh, pick their brain for free. And so, and, and, you know, those relationships have been a huge part of my book launch. The blurbs that I got are from mostly from people that have been on my podcast. The book events that I'm doing are in large part people that have been on my podcast. Uh, you know, like, there have been so many collaborations that have come out of it. People that have reviewed, that are reviewing my book, that have been on my podcast. And so I just think, you know, and you don't, like I said, you don't have to go all the way in. You could do a Q A series on your sub stack. You could do a sub stack live. But like, starting relationships in that way, it's just, they're so fruitful and it's like the gift that keeps on giving.

Speaker B: And that's, you know, very few people who write about podcasts will say that, you know, like, it's. They'll say, oh, you know, you build it and you become as an authority. And yeah, I get into that as well. But, uh, I 100% agree. I mean, it's such a great way to build relationships broadly and to add value to the world. And then you can take that content and use it in other ways, which obviously you are doing constantly. It's like a spin cycle of all your ideas are, uh, spinning out in various formats for you. But that's a really good point. And you mentioned collaborations, and I see that you do a lot of collaborations on podcasting and YouTube as well. Or. Ah, that's probably the same. It's a YouTube podcast or a podcast that ends up on YouTube as we see. We see today.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do you do collaborations from a, uh, is it more from a. Just a keep things fresh or as a networking thing or, you know, is there a monetary reason behind it? How do collaborations come about? Or are they just pretty much, hey, this is a cool idea, let's do it.

Speaker A: You know, a lot of it is just organic. I'll meet someone and I learn about some story that they have. Some, you know, some traumatic thing happened when they were giving birth. And I'm doing a motherhood series and I'm like, I gotta interview this person about it or, you know, whatever the case might be. And. And I don't care if they have an audience or not in those cases, you know, like, I just want to have the conversation and hear the story. And I think my audience appreciates that too. And then, you know, there's other people that are a little bit more strategic. Like, we both write about the same thing, and so that could be a great. You know, I want to know this person. I don't necessarily have, like, a goal that I want out of it. I just kind of want to start the relationship. I want to learn from them. I mean, a lot of it is driven by m. My curiosity, as you said at the beginning. Like, I just. I just want to keep learning about writing and podcasting and want to have these conversations about feminism and whatever. And so I just kind of follow my own passions. I'm all. I'm always aware of, like, if someone, you know, there is put a future for us to maybe do something else together or whatever. Like, I'm always keeping my feelers out, but that's not driving the bulk of my decision.

Speaker B: So organic. And. And I think it was on YouTube. You were with. You were with one guy for a number of interviews. Was that a short run, mini podcast or just a series on his. I can't remember what the name of it was because I know you've been on. I'm sorry to put you on the spot there.

Speaker A: Maybe it was somebody who interviewed someone who interviewed me for the book. Did post a number of videos, but it was based on one conversation.

Speaker B: Oh, okay. It looked like it was a whole series. And I thought, oh, there's another collaboration.

Speaker A: You did a good job of promoting it.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker A: One thing about. Sorry, I sound like I work for Substack. I absolutely do not. But one of the beautiful things about, uh, their integration right now, which you're pointing out with, you know, you found some of my YouTube content, is that you. They make it really easy to publish direct to. They. They. First of all, YouTube will pick up things from your podcast feed and publish it audio only. And then substack makes it really easy to publish any video of, like, a Substack live or whatever and shoot that over to YouTube. So yes, I have YouTube channels for all of my podcasts as well. It's not necessarily like the first and foremost thing that I'm focused on, but like, why not? It's a great discovery platform.

Speaker B: It is a discovery platform for sure. And in terms of. I, uh, just want to touch on the stand up comedy. And where is that. That's your performance thing these days. I mean, do you, you did want to do acting, but you've moved away from that by the soundtrack and. But are you still doing stand up comedy? Do you do a show once a year? Or how does, how does comedy fit in?

Speaker A: Yeah, I would love to do, you know, even more than I do right now. I, I really have to like, carve it in. You know, I have to seek the opportunities because this book has taken over my life and so I have to make sure that I have an outlet for stand up. And so what I've done over the past like year and a half just to like, give myself accountability and like a regular place to show up is there's this comedian, Ahmed Borussia. He's awesome. I used to date one of his friends a long time ago and I saw that he was starting to teach stand up comedy class and I was like, oh, this is per. Uh, like I need, I need the regular, you know, because I could easily go weeks without going to an open mic or, you know, doing a show or whatever. And I don't want to get that far away from my material. And so I actually was just in my stand up class prior to this conversation. But you know, every week I go to that class for three hours. I have to write some new jokes and it just keeps me very much like in, in my material. So I'm not stepping away for too long. And then it's hard to come back to it. You know, I have a show at a comedy club coming up in mid June and whenever I have a show coming up, especially like a taped show, which this is, I spend, you know, several weeks in preparation, like hitting two, three, four mics every day. And so I really kind of binge. That's something we haven't actually talked about. Some people are like, how do you do all these things? Like, how do you keep all the balls in the air? And that's a good question because it looks like I might be doing them m all the time.

Speaker B: And that's very interested in that. And that was on my list. I wanted to get the stuff. Scope of things. But let's get into that because you. Because it looks that Way. There are lots of things. And. And this was interesting because with comedy, you just got to, you know, I've known a few comedians back here in Melbourne, and, you know, it's a craft and it's hard and, you know, takes a long time to write a show, you know, and then you. You know, if you're getting filmed, you've burned that material often. So walk us through that. Let's. Let's finish up on the. On the. On the. On the comedy side. Because then I want to get into Balls in the Air when you say, where's the comedy show, your next one being held?

Speaker A: It's at the Ice House in la. In Pasadena, actually.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, yep. And when you say it's taped, is that for a streaming service or.

Speaker A: Oh, no, no, no, no. It's not. It's straight. It's taped for me. I won't be burning the comedy except for that. I will be putting it on my social media. But it's just, I think, an occasion to get a really good set. And so, like, I'm not trying to experiment during. I mean, there's a little bit that happens, but I'm really just trying to, like, put my best foot forward because those sets are what you submit to comedy festivals and to get booked on other shows. And so you really want to have a good tape.

Speaker B: It's like your sizzle reel. Yeah, would have a sizzle reel. All right, so balls in the Air. What does a day in the life of Courtney look like?

Speaker A: Yeah, So I used to think, you know, 10 years ago, like, how do I make all this work? I would think, okay, I have to record a podcast interview on this day. I also have to edit a little bit, you know, for 20 minutes, and then I have to write a little bit of my essay, and then, oh, my gosh, can I touch my script? And, you know, I thought I had to do everything in the same day, and that is crazy making. So I have learned that that is actually not the way to go. I also try not to get sucked into my emails for too m. Much of the day. That's a trap. I'm trying to get to the point where I don't read my emails first thing in the morning. I'm not that evolved yet, but hope to get there. But I do a really good job of prioritization. So, like, right now, the most important thing, you know, I have, like, three things. I have to finish my MFA critical paper. I have to, you know, finish the pitches before this book tour and do this book tour. I have to finish my audiobook for Girl Gone Wild. You know, like, I have, but. But the standup's not on that list right now, which is why it's so good that I have this class. You know, there are a bunch of things that aren't on the list that are super important to me, but they're just not the top priority right now. And so just knowing, like, what are my top priorities now? And then checking in with myself from time to time as to how those, uh, are evolving, you know, I cannot wait. I have another memoir, my second memoir that is like half done. I cannot wait to get back to writing that again. But it's not at the top of the priorities right now, so I can't do it. And when I do it, I want to be fully there. I want my whole headspace to be there. And so I just, I can't do it right now. And so the, the how of this prioritization comes down to batching. So I batch as much of my stuff as possible. So that means when I'm revising. When I revised Girl Gone Wild, I took everything off my schedule as much as possible for July. August had to take an extra month because I wasn't done so into September, but three months where I, you know, someone wants to record a podcast interview, I can't do it unless it's super important. You know, if I'm, I'm cutting down on how many newsletters I'm sending out, I'm really. The prioritization is this revision, because that is the task at hand right now. And then, you know, when I need to fill up my coffers for podcasts, I'll record two weeks of interviews, you know, and then I'll have interviews kind of for six months, you know, or whatever, however many I need. And I, so I just try to do that batching as much as possible. And that is how I stay sane.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, but obviously you know your channels very well and the, the publishing rhythm and, you know, you clearly probably change that publishing rhythm every now and then when, uh, required. But basically, you know how to top it up and to, uh, you know, if you're batch producing podcasts, they can be dropped out and scheduled and you know, apart from the distribute the promotion of each one, you probably all works like a machine. Do you do all the back end stuff as well, or have you got a virtual assistant helping you on stuff?

Speaker A: I don't have a virtual assistant. I, I had an assistant like 20, 20, 21. And that was glorious. I miss Those days she's gone on to better things. But no, I do all of that myself. I do the cut downs for all of my podcasts myself. So I do like the first ed. Uh, I do a pretty detailed edit. I do pass on my podcast for Private Parts Unknown and the Bleeders to Mike, who's I've been working with forever and he does my mixing and mastering. So he does that final pass, which is very helpful. I think I would go crazy if I did literally all of it. But yeah, I mean I really am, um, aside from a little bit of help from Mike. Solopreneur.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's um. Are you using AI at all to help in any way?

Speaker A: It's so funny. My, my MFA critical paper is about AI. You know, for me, where I've really landed is like, it's on whether I want AI to help me is on an art to admin spectrum. Do I want it to help me with some administrative tasks? Making sure my pitch email is good and I have one for like I'm doing all these events. Do I, uh, you know, I'll let it check my typos for the pitch email or you know, I need one just like this but for this other place, I'll let it help me with that. Sometimes for my classes I have to take a caption I've already written and optimize it for all the different social media platforms. I'm not usually ever satisfied with the first thing that AI gives me. It still requires some editing, but for administrative and like promotional tasks, I will use it to optimize a podcast title. I will use it. What I don't want to use it for is for my book, for my stand up for anything like that, my screenwriting and so really that's my spectrum. You know, I, I don't, you know, I will go online though and I see people just like blanket anti AI and I'm like, that doesn't make sense. We should want to use it to buy ourselves more time for the actual precious art that we make.

Speaker B: Correct. Yeah, I can't agree more. That's, that's the way I look at it too. And it's, and that's experimentation and, and, and look, ah, the AI tools will get better as they get to know your voice but you know, they're not going to be able to write your memoir and you know, and, and stand up. I'm not so sure AI is very funny. I've never laughed at it. Well, actually once Claude did come back to me and say you were Right. To slap me. And I didn't think I slept. I didn't think I slapped Claude, but that made me laugh. But that's, that's about it. Um, you mentioned a critical paper. Mfa. What's. What's. What. What is that?

Speaker A: Yeah. So I am, um, heading into my final semester for my MFA and Creative Writing. I would just say for anybody thinking about getting their mfa.

Speaker B: I don't know what that MFA is.

Speaker A: Oh, a Master of Fine Arts.

Speaker B: Oh, okay.

Speaker A: It's like a grad program.

Speaker B: Yep. Yep.

Speaker A: I don't think it's necessary. I started mine when I was kind of frustrated that I didn't have my book deal yet. And I thought, is this going to help me? And the, uh, reality is I had already set everything in motion for my book deal prior to starting the program. And so it's a very expensive of extra thing that I didn't necessarily need. But I'm trying to take it as seriously as possible and, you know, do the best work I can.

Speaker B: So we can add academic to your list.

Speaker A: You know, I wouldn't mind doing a little bit of grad level teaching, but we'll see.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Well, there you go. It's. And so you've mentioned the word classes and programs quite a lot. Do you. You're just a continual learner, obviously, and that, that shoots you off in different directions. How does that work? I mean, do you, do you say, look, I'm a bit light in this space, I need to up my game and you'll go to a class to do it? Or is that a way to shortcut your knowledge? How do you approach external learning?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, as soon as I kind of made the pivot into writing, I just wanted to learn as much as I could. I could. And what's amazing about writing is there are so many working writers that teach classes. And so you can learn from all these different perspectives. And so for a long time I was just a student and just soaking up as much as I could. I couldn't, um, even afford all the class. Sometimes I would put one on my credit card as a treat, you know. But really I got so much out of those classes that that's what turned, you know, I wanted to then pass my knowledge on when I got to a certain point in my career. And so I can justify a lot of classes these days because a lot of it really helps my art. And then I. It helps what I can teach other people. And so I'm constantly, you know, have my feelers out and if I See something that's interesting, uh, for a skill that I haven't mastered or somebody that I want to study with. You, uh, know, I'm always interested in doing that. And yeah, I really like. I'm about to teach a year, um, long incubator for writing memoir that I'm starting in June. And it's because I took an incubator that really helped me on my book journey. And now I'm like, gosh, I've learned so much. Like I really want to create that structure for other people.

Speaker B: And at the end of the day, you are a solopreneur. Uh, you said that a minute ago. And, and so the, the business of Courtney. What does that look like? I mean, clearly, you know, you've got products out there that is a book, but you know, unless you've got a multi, multi bestseller, you know, books might pay the rent. Hopefully. Hopefully yours not yet a bestseller. Well, it's only just out. Um, in terms of sort of income streams.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Can you walk us generally through that, how that works?

Speaker A: Yeah, so there's a bunch of different, you know, I write a freelance article or essay. That's one kind of bucket. I make money from private parts unknown from ad revenue and I have a sponsor that also, you know, does social media deals with me sometimes. So that is kind of one bucket for private parts unknown. I monetize podcast Bestie and the Bleeders through Substack as well. I. Yeah, the book itself, which I think I've. My advance was very small, but I think I have already out earned my advance even though I won't see that money for like nine months. Uh, the audiobook which is not quite done, but it will be soon and that will be a separate revenue stream that should be fairly ongoing. I have some classes that I just teach and sell off my website that are. That is hosted on Squarespace. I also teach for a lot of different people and you know, we, we uh, have different deals and splits and whatever and that's, you know, its own kind of bucket. I'm sure there's some other stuff that I'm forgetting right now. A little bit of affiliate income.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's great. I mean it's. You've kind of also, uh, you know, to my mind, there's two types of. Generally there's two types of content creators. There's the. I call the reputation creators who already running a business and they create content to support that business, build their authority and their thought leadership, etc. And they, they run content in a different way. And then you've got the independent creator who is really essentially a little indie media operation and they want to grow an audience and then monetize that audience. And that's a different way of thinking. You're kind of sitting in between. I mean.

Speaker A: Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker B: Private parts are known, uh, the podcast with, you know, such a big audience, you know, you're monetizing that through sponsorship, ads, sort of stuff and advertising and then, but then, you know, if you're doing something on substack and you're building an audience and then you're selling them writing courses, I mean, that's a different way of doing it. So it's, it's, this is the opportunity for people today. It's just that you do it at scale. That's, that's, that's pretty broad, Courtney. That's, this is fantastic. I've really enjoyed this. And um, you know, again, I'm, I was very keen for people to understand, you know, how, how you can manage, uh, um, I think you call it a multi. Passionate. That would be the, my term as well. Operation, Personal brand based operation. At the end of the day, what are. You know, you do teach this as well, but you teach it for writers, but as a more generally people who uh, you know, want to juggle different projects and content based, you know, a lot of these are content based projects as well. What, what's some looking back in the rear view mirror and the lessons you've learned and that sort of stuff and you, you're clearly very strategic about it now and, and by looking from the outside, you know, a lot of these channels or platforms feed into each other. What's some sort of ideas or insights or tips that you can share with us that uh, to help people get over the overwhelm or not get into the overwhelm in the first place.

Speaker A: Yeah, I do think, you know, the PR piece of it is important, but you don't need to hire someone you, uh, know, I am most successful with. I did hire someone for my book, but that wasn't necessarily how the, you know, real opportunities came. Like a lot of it was self generated. It was me pitching newspapers, it was m. Me pitching places. So really taking control of that aspect of your business. You know, they say for every podcast, you know, however much time you put into producing your podcast, you should spend the same amount of time marketing your podcast. I don't necessarily do that, but I have taken that advice a lot more seriously over the years. And so, you know, I did try to put in you know, a similar amount of time to promoting my book as I put into revising my book, because, you know, connecting with readers helps pave the way for the next book. And then, yeah, just thinking of how all your tributaries feed each other, you know, when I was putting the book together, like, I wanted to make sure I mentioned the podcast so that people that had a great experience reading the book could go back and find the show. You know, they could find me on Instagram. And, like, don't make it hard for people to find you. It's crazy how many. And for my podcast producer days, too, like, when I was making shows for other people, it kind of doesn't matter how big your audience is, but it's a red flag if you're not findable.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Like, you should have the same kind of handle and the same profile picture. Like, it should be really easy, especially in this weird bot AI world, make it really easy for people to know that it's you, that you're a human, you know, and just showing up sometimes, too, you know, like, yes, I'm constantly putting out my stuff, and I'm constantly promoting my stuff, and I also occasionally just try to show up and, like, here's a photo of my dogs or, like, here's some regular human thing about me that, you know, is not about something I'm trying to sell you or something that I want you to consume or whatever.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you've used the word pitch a lot because you're doing proposals and things like that. How much is coming into you in inbound because of the brand you've built and. Oh, that's an opportunity. Oh, yeah, I wouldn't mind doing that or whatever. And how much is. This is a very specific thing I need to pitch into this. Whether. Whether it's media coverage, that's one thing, but it's more. It sounds like, you know, pitch for a comedy show or pitch for a. Yeah, I've got an essay here. I want to pitch you as a freelancer. What's. What's the inbound, outbound, um, scenario like with you? And is it getting easier to do that more inbound?

Speaker A: You know, I. I get inbound. I get a lot of inbound for guests that want to come on my show. I sometimes will get inbound for PR stuff because they heard me on something else or because it'll be like a media opportunity that led to another media opportunity. But I'm doing a ton of, you know, mostly when I say pitch or, like, when I was talking about the pitches before I'm not even really pitching articles right now. I'm kind of on hiatus from that because I don't really have the brain space to write something at the moment. I'm pitching events, I'm pitching people to be conversation partners. I'm pitching people to cover, you know, me in their newspaper or whatever. And so that's really what I'm focused on these days. But I cannot wait for when, uh, I'm, you know, back to my book writing and trying to place essays related to that as well.

Speaker B: You're certainly not invisible. And the thing with pitching, when you've got a very strong brand and you're findable and discoverable everywhere, that they'll, they can find you easily. And you know, you've got a website which is basically the hub of everything as well, which I, uh, encourage people to go and look at. And you've got the book details on the website. Is that the best place to send people?

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, and I, I'm active on Instagram and also I love, I, I, uh, clearly I've, I haven't shut up about Substack, but I love just like Substack notes the social media aspect of it. And that's where all my sub stacks are like, you know, combined, where I'm just Courtney Kosak on there. And that's another great way to connect.

Speaker B: Terrific. Thank you very much. Good luck with the, the book tour, uh, and, and hopefully we get to see the Second Girl Gone Wild as the book, but we might see Girls Gone Wild too sometime soon.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. Great conversation.