Eyes in the Sky: Scaling Drone Programs Without Losing Public Trust

It could actually look at our video feed and start picking out where they are, which starts getting in that sci fi realm. David, what are some of the most critical areas of improvement for current SWAT tactical operations? The tactics are the same as if you are a normal officer going into the building and clearing it. You fly in, you can punch straight into the center of the room, do a quick 360. How do you assess the trade offs between cost and quality in these products? Reliability is kind of the biggest thing. What's going to keep us safe and what's going to help us get the mission done. A lot of people are fearful of AI and how it's being used. Some citizens might not want some of that AI coming out, trying to be on the front foot of all that. David, what are some of the most critical areas of improvement for current SWAT tactical operations? And based on your experiences, how can these improvements be integrated into existing training programs? Yeah, so I think some of the big areas improvement, so I believe other agencies, but the way we have it, we have a drone team, our UAS team, and then our SWAT team that are two, two separate entities. We don't combine them all in one. I know some SWAT teams might have their own drone operator, but having them separate, I see the need for it when we have our call outs because we kind of have different sets and working together. But at times, the way schedules work out, training dates, we tend to have separate trainings. So SWAT kind of goes through their training specifically. We do our trainings on our own and I think integrating them is a huge piece we do. It just could always be done more. I think it's just them seeing the capabilities as drones change as we get new drones in our fleet, testing our capabilities and just sharing those ideas with your SWAT team because it really is a collaborative effort where we can be like, hey, this is one of our new drones. These are some of the capabilities. What are things that you guys want to see from the drones? Because we're there to support them. They're the ones running the scene. How do they want it handled? So just being able to work with them in a training environment, because a lot of times it ends up being separate. And I think the biggest improvements we can do is just bringing both programs together at times to be able to have one full training. So then they can see it, we can run scenarios together and then they get a better idea of just what we can do instead of just, hey, drones, go, go ahead and do it. And then it, it works out plenty of times. But I Think a lot of moments need to be inspired by you guys too, in a way. Right? Like be like there is so many cap abilities here. The drones are multifaceted, which is something I bring up often. But yeah, we just gotta put them together. Nice. Well, as your role as a UAS instructor, how do you address the need for specialized training in drone operations for SWAT teams? Are there any particular techniques or scenarios that you focus on to enhance operational effectiveness? Yeah. So flying a drone, it's not much different. In a sense, you have the way of flying it, but it really comes down. The tactics are the same as if you are a normal officer going into the building and clearing it. So especially if you have enough drones, we always want to do two drone clearing. So you never want to have one drone going into a house by itself. We've done plenty of trainings where you can kind of outrun the drone. You can go into a room, they don't clear it, you could hop back out where if you have someone that holds long hallways while one drone goes into a room, clears that. So then you can pick up people that might be moving through the house. So minimum two drones clearing. If you can throw more than that, even better. But it does take communication amongst your operators where just like if you would clearing a house, you could still pie doorways with a drone. Instead of just flying straight in, you go in, you run the walls. So kind of like when you come in, you're on the wall, push in so many feet you have your working walls. So kind of same concepts in a lot of ways. It's really fast processing at times. So you go in, you see it's clear, move on. And then there are some techniques. So say you come up to a t kind of intersection or hallway, or it's a center fed room, you can fly the drone in. We call it a 360 degree clear. So some drones are faster than others. So if you fly in, you can punch straight into the center of the room, do a quick360 so you can check both sides. Because if you go in and check one hard corner, if they're on the other side, they can jump out of it. If it's a fast 360, sometimes it can still catch them if they're trying to run out. But that's where having multiple drones comes in handy, where they can start holding different hallways and just kind of break apart the problem just as if you're actually a person inside. So it's just kind of bringing that into training. And then the communication And I think that's a big part for clearing houses and any interior flights, especially for SWAT missions. Nice. Now, speaking of kind of like unique scenarios or particular training methods and so on, government agencies like NIST and say the Department of Commerce are establishing testing methods for drones. How do you perceive these testing methods impacting the development and deployment of drones and public safety? Are there any particular testing techniques that you find particular beneficial? Yeah, so they pretty much NIST has come up with that standardized method for kind of testing drone capabilities. So I know we've found that there are pilot proficiency things that you can take from it. You can kind of test different drones. It's a very simplified concept. But being able to fly a drone, seeing how the gimbal moves, how the camera apertures can change quickly, changing your EVs. It's so funny, man. Like I've had this conversation. Like I've been, I've been getting close with the NIST guys lately, like always have been. But when I, I was training teams, I come from an oil gas background and I was training North Dakotans how to fly drones. And I'm like, yeah, it's kind of like you got to look at it like you're playing chess, you know, it's not just a. Well, we should dive into this here in a second. It's kind of fun. Government agencies like NIST and the Department of Commerce are establishing testing methods for drones. How do you perceive these testing methods impacting the development and deployment of drones in public safety? Now, are there any testing techniques that you find particularly beneficial or lacking? Yeah. So I know the good thing with NIST is they've come up with this standardized method that helps test different drone capabilities. So there's a couple different lanes, each of them, you can kind of fly different drones and you're going to get different scorings on them depending on the camera quality, how quick the gimbal moves. And it is a good way to get familiar with your drone. So as a team, it's kind of helped develop. I know you can decide on what drones you might want or if you do have drones, you can kind of see how they compare to different ones. Some of the testing techniques that we've seen, even with public safety, is that you can get pilot proficiency out of it. So there are flying it under certain time constraints, hitting certain acuities. It does lend to building up a pilot's proficiency. So we've seen that come up as a positive for us. The NIST method in like starting to, to really train to not Just fly to a point but also yaw and then move the gimbal and have it kind of flow. Right. And like it's these, all these like pre existing thoughts that you, it's like kind of like playing chess. Right. You have to look at like not the immediate move ahead like checkers, but three or four and you're starting to flow and position yourself. I, yeah, I just, I, I, I actually love flying this force. They're fun. Yeah. I think with a lot of our newer officers too, putting them through it because it really does hone a lot of those basic skills. It's not as dynamic, but them being able to learn how to adjust the yaw, zoom it, change your EVs in different ways, it kind of just helps build them up better. And I think it's a good kind of starting point of encompassing a lot of things to kind of build their foundation for their training. Well, great. So how do you think the efforts of those organizations like NIST are shaping the future of drone certification and professional pilot training and what additional steps would be taken to advance these efforts? So I think HAL is talking about the pilot proficiency side of it, how we've seen how it can be used and there is no blanket certification. NIST isn't a certifying body. So I also work with the Regional Training center or the rtc. So we've built a NIST course where we'll train proctors so we can get them certified and then we'll start issuing proctor or pilot certifications for each kind of lane. So 3, 4, 5. And it's not everyone can kind of make their own standards, but we kind of created one where you got to do it within a certain time constraint, certain acuity, certain alignment. And they're on the stricter side. Normal pilot's not going to be able to pick up a drone and just fly it and hit those constraints unless you're a seasoned pilot or you've been doing NIST for a while. So we kind of made a certification for it where it's still a pretty high number, where if most people see it, they're gonna be like, oh, that's pretty good. And then shows that they are proficient in that platform that they're flying. So then we'll issue our RTC like certified pilots under those different lanes. And we've been working with NIST with that. So we have our partners, they come out, they help teach the course with us. So it is a collaborative effort with them and I think it's a way of providing agencies and their pilots, another certification showing that they're able to fly these type of test methods and just know their proficiency on their platforms. So it's it. I could see it growing more as we go and have a standardized one, but we're kind of trying to lead the way with that and kind of start some certification method within nist. Nice. Well, let me know. I'll start running the test course in my backyard. I love it. See if we can get me certified. Yeah. And I know I was talking to some of our NIST colleagues lately, and I know they're saying, I guess moving forward, they're even looking at making a DFR form of nist. So probably have a place out at our location out in Texas, I think is where they're talking about, where we can have it set up. So now we can start testing DFR solutions with it as well. So I could be here in Chula Vista, take off from the drone over there, run the course, and then we can also start doing certification with that. And I think that's a huge benefit because a lot of times I've had to train on a lot of our new pilots on dfr, and a lot of it's throwing them right into the fire where they got to start working a call, learn how to control it. We use a keyboard and mouse to fly ours. So if we can log into a NIST lane and they can fly it, they can already get the controls down and that takes away half the battle. So I know that's something they're working on. They've shared that with me. So that's definitely something I'm looking forward to. And I think that's going to be huge just for proficiency and testing latency, different applications, because there's a lot of teleoperations. Software is coming out now, totally now. And it's like the power of DFR and showing these remote capabilities too. I know with us at Drone Sense, we always do multiple flights if we're shipping people at one in Michigan, one over here in Chicago, one over here in Texas. And it's such a compelling thing to do remotely, correct? Yep, it is. And now are you. Are you always a keyboard and mouse guy or do you like. You like controllers, too? I like controllers too, but keyboard and mouse, I actually prefer it for dfr. It just, it's simple. But I have played computer games, so keyboard and mouse ain't too bad. It's kind of like Counter Strike guy, I assume. No, I'm kidding. No, no, never Counter Strike. Nice. Well, it's just so funny. I always, I'm like, so what video games did you play? And then I go, okay, here's the keyboard or no, here's a PlayStation controller. It just ma matches up, but love that. Now with all these training courses and so on, there's a lot of data that's collected. What do you think the influencing of this data can go to? Design and functionality of drones used in public safety. Can you share any examples of where maybe this data could lead to improvements in drone technology or training in the future? Yeah, I think just I know NIST has worked with a lot of our stateside partners and companies that are trying to build drones so they can see how their drones perform. Each of the pretty much companies here, they have their own NIST lanes so they can test their platforms as they're building them, see how they're performing. You can see numbers on how some of our other drones that are currently out in the market are performing. So you can kind of start seeing the pros and cons of each. And since each of them have access to NIST lanes, they can actually test them as they go, see what needs to be improved, what makes things faster. And hopefully that will kind of lead to the companies making something that will be competitive against some of the other drones throughout the world. So yeah, I think that's just hopefully the improvements they'll see, hopefully they can compare data which will help whether gimbal speeds, having gimbals that move, how controllers work, how the interface works. Just all that stuff kind of plays into how well we can fly the drone, how well we can do our missions. So the NIST lanes do help with that. And I think our stateside partners, hopefully they're utilizing them. I know they have access to them so they can use them. Quick break to highlight whether you're flying, sharing or managing your drone program, DroneSense has everything you need. It's hardware agnostic, so it works with a variety of drones, sensors and other hardware, giving you ultimate flexibility and with the ability to collaborate across agencies securely, DroneSense helps you scale from one drone to 100, supporting you in everything from routine calls to disaster response. To learn more and get started, check out the link in the description. So when evaluating the reliability and affordability of different drone products, what are the key factors that influence your decision making process for public safety applications and how do you balance the cost and performance and reliability? So I always tell a lot of people a lot of newer agencies or new pilots that don't have established programs and they want to get into the having a UAS team, I make sure, sit down. As an agency, whoever the stakeholders are, what are our specific mission sets that we're looking to do with the drone? I know drones are the hot topic, so it's like we need to have a drone team. But every agency is different, every city has different needs, counties. So what are our specific mission sets? Do we want it for interior flight, do we want dfr? Kind of looking at those first so that you have your goals that you need and then you can start looking at the drones that fit what those mission sets are that you have because then you can start looking at cost and what's going to best hit those certain scenarios. So I, I know those. One agency I talked to, I think they wanted to start a team. They're like, let's get the best thing out there. They went, bought an M300 and they were deploying it from a patrol car. And we know 30,000 plus where you could have bought maybe 6, 7 drones depending on which drones you're getting to build your fleet out. So now you're stuck with a big drone that is limited in some, it's an overwatch drone is all it is. But if that's what your mission sets are. So I think the big thing is just establishing those first so that you can start gearing your fleet around that instead of just buying everything that's out there. And then now you're trying to figure out how do we use these and that will kind of help you with your performance, reliability, your cost because you can start outweighing or weighing out your pros, cons. How do we get these kind of goals we want to have done with the drone, what do we use for them? So I think that's the biggest thing that will help you kind of in that decision making process. Now speaking about drones being the hot topic, let's talk about American made drones. American, they're often noted as their for their high performance and so on and, but they're more on the pricey side of things. How do you assess trade offs between cost and quality in these products? Are there any affordable alternatives that you found to be effective in public safety operations and how do they compare to other high end models? Yeah, each agency is different but I know cost does play a role in a lot of them and that kind of hinders a lot of us because I know if we can buy one drone that has kind of a specific purpose, but we're spending quite a bit of money where we can buy four drones for the Same price that can kind of do a variety of different things that kind of tends to be at least what we would move forward with. So it does make it tough. I know materials, kind of all the different political side that goes into that. But it's a tough challenge right now. And it's, it's unfortunately put in your guys shoes and it's, it's. I'm. Yeah, yeah. And just as officers in the field, I know reliability is kind of huge. So if a drone's reliable and it is more expensive, we would probably go with it because reliability is kind of the biggest thing. What's going to keep us safe and what's going to help us get the mission done. But also if we can have something that's just as reliable, that's cheaper and we can have multiple of those, it's kind of hard to say no to that. So that's where the price does come in. But I think if it's reliable and we can get the price more competitive, I think it will definitely be a first kind of go to with that. But I think we look at if it's cheap and it's reliable, that's kind of usually the first kind of choice sometimes especially with budgets and all that. Goodness. I know I totally sync up with you when it comes to reliability. Even if it is a pricier drone and so on or just really just paying for the American made or NDAA compliant blue stuff, if you are putting a little bit more money towards it, it needs to have that reliability and redundancy and always kind of coming back. Right? Yeah. And I've many conversations, I don't think I've heard anyone that says we would be opposed to American made drones if they were competitive. So if they're, if it's quality we're getting there. Right. Like it's on its way and I hate to see the political lobbyists being part of it. I just really just the product starting to get there too. And I, I really think we are, we're in some level past, some levels under. I mean it's, it's still, we're almost there and it's, it's really, it's really exciting in its own way too. But yeah, I know if, if, if it shows up and it's the best drones I know people are all for going American made drones. It's just as once we can kind of have the trade offs being good, I don't see it being a problem moving forward and it looks promising so. Nice. Well, I've got A couple closing questions here for you, David. So looking ahead, what emerging trends or technologies in drone operations do you believe will have the most significant impact on public safety missions in the next five to 10 years? And then how should agencies prepare to integrate these advancements into their current practices? Yeah, so as we've seen, even just starting now are the drone docks that are coming up. So even on a DFR side of it, we're still using people on the roofs. We have certain launch sites through the city, but I know there's been talks say we have a dock that goes on every fire station because there's fire stations already strategically placed through the city. You can have so many of them where there's enough coverage. So implementing all of those, I see that becoming more of a thing. I know I've seen some companies where you can deploy from a car that might be huge, where a lot of company or a lot of agencies might not be able to afford having people on the roof or having stationary sites where I remember seeing it, it was crazy. Where you can have a DFR pilot, certain drones in the field, they can just launch from the cars and now you have mobile dfr, which is great concept if it works. And I could see that kind of growing and getting better as it goes. I know I've heard talks on some of the teleoperation software that's going to kind of integrate AI possibly where if it's suspect wearing a red shirt this. And we all know how AI is exploding right now, but it could actually look at our video feed and start picking out kind of where they are which starts getting in that sci fi realm. Oh man. But that is stuff that's I've heard is on the horizon that people are working on or saying like a white sedan going this direction. There so many possibilities but I've, I've heard kind of some of that stuff being in the works. So I'm sure that's stuff that's going to kind of keep growing. And, and I think just as agencies have to prepare for that is just policies. I know a lot of people are fearful of AI in a lot of different ways and how it's being used. I know even with body cams there's AI software to kind of write the reports and just making sure that your policies, working with your citizens, that's a big thing. When we started our program, we went to our city and how did they want the drones to be used instead of just throwing a program out and then they have all their negatives about it. So it was really collaborative effort with our citizens on how they wanted our drones to be used within public safety. So I think that's just something, as technology advances, it's keeping those community partnerships policies and just that some, some citizens might not want some of that AI or different, different softwares that are coming out. So I think it's just trying to be on the front foot of all that. What was the premise of Terminator? Wasn't it when they put AI in Skynet drone capabilities and then just took over the world and killed everyone? No. So we gotta be a little careful here. And there are moments where I'm like, are we building Skynet? But it's still, it's a collective group of this. There's gotta be a good answer. There's gotta be a good path. It's not just a simple solution. But yeah, yeah. Now, David, if you could offer one piece of advice to public safety departments looking to enhance their use of drones for tactical operations, what would it be and how would they ensure they're maximizing the potential of this technology while addressing the challenges that you have discussed today? So I'll kind of go back to the mission sets part. So the big thing is just not going out, buying the bright, shiny new item or the most expensive, thinking it's the best drone out there. It's just as an agency. Sit down. Do you want an Overwatch drone? If you want an Overwatch drone, great. If you want to have it for swap missions, if you want to be able to talk to the person in the building, there are drones for that. So it's just kind of establishing what you want to be done with the drones. And I think that's the biggest first step too, of just knowing how you're going to apply it within those tactical operations. Because there's so many different ways it can be used. So you want to be able to build your program around your goals as an agency. So that's kind of the biggest piece is just sit down. What do you want done? How can we meet these goals? And then what drones do we have that can actually help us finish these or complete them efficiently? So that's kind of the best advice, especially when starting out a program. Because last thing we want is you to spend money on a big drone and get stuck with one when you can maybe have eight drones for the same price and maybe hit a couple different mission sets. So don't be so quick to buy the best item that some people might say just no, totally. And it's I speaking to individuals like yourself and kind of jumping into these, these areas of community that I believe a lot of us have created here in this industry. And a lot of us have learned from examples, experiences and mistakes as well. There's a big aspect that I keep tying in in the podcast here is very much community. And I know like Drone Responders has a good group. You know, we have a working group every Friday at Drone Sense that we, you know, it's just all about bringing everyone in one room and all discussing everything about it. So just a. Yeah, it's a reach out to all of us. We're here to kind of talk through a lot of this. Yep, definitely. I always tell everyone I meet, even when we do our trainings, just feel free to reach out. I'm always willing to learn. There's so much to learn. No one knows everything and I'm just sharing ideas. I still talk to other officers from different states and how they do things and how can we make this better just with public safety as a whole. Nice. Well, David, thank you so much for taking the time to visit with us today and share your insights. And thanks again to everyone on the Internet listening here to dronecast. We'll see you next time. And that's a wrap for today's episode of dronecast Rethinking Public Safety One Drone at a Time. I hope you found today's conversation insightful and thought provoking. As always, we want to hear from you. What do you think of today's topics? Do you have any questions or suggestions for future episodes? Don't forget, you can reach out to us on LinkedIn @D dronecast rethinking public safety One Drone at a Time. Or head over to dronesense.com dronecast to share your thoughts and get more content from the show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, rating and sharing it with others who are passionate about the future of drones and public safety. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time.