S8E5 - From Deadlines to Data: A Journalist's Guide to AI Without Losing Your Judgement

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Digitally Curious, a podcast to help you 2 - > navigate the future of AI and beyond. 3 - > Your host is world-renowned futurist and author of Digitally 4 - > Curious, Andrew Grill. 5 - > SPEAKER_02: Today my guest is Harriet Meyer, an award-winning 6 - > journalist turned AI trainer, who's written for titles 7 - > including The Guardian, The Sunday Times, and The Telegraph, 8 - > and now helps media and communication professionals use 9 - > AI without losing their judgment or their minds.

10 - > Today we're moving from deadlines to data, from the 11 - > world of late-night filing and red pen edits to a new reality 12 - > where AI sits in the newsroom alongside reporters, editors, 13 - > and com teams. 14 - > Harriet and I first met at Newsrewide, a conference for 15 - > journalists, where she picked up a copy of my book, Digitally 16 - > Curious. 17 - > And it struck me that her story perfectly captures what this 18 - > show is all about. 19 - > Curious, practical people trying to make sense of powerful new 20 - > tools.

21 - > Welcome Harriet. 22 - > SPEAKER_01: Hi Andrew, it's lovely to see you again. 23 - > I'm really happy to be here. 24 - > I'm looking forward to this.

25 - > SPEAKER_02: A journalist turned AI expert. 26 - > When you look back at your early days filing copy on tight 27 - > deadlines, what feels most distant from where you are now? 28 - > Were you running AI training for media and comms teams? 29 - > SPEAKER_01: Back then, when I started, it was the early 2000s, 30 - > so the rhythm of the work was completely different.

31 - > The newspaper was very much the centre of gravity, and that has 32 - > fundamentally changed through the online digital revolution. 33 - > And I was working at the Daily Telegraph, writing a few 34 - > features a week, being able to really get into stories on the 35 - > phone all the time, interviewing people. 36 - > It was all about the phone and going out and seeing people, and 37 - > now you know I'm trying to keep up with this technology which is 38 - > changing at such an incredible breakneck speed.

39 - > Journalism has changed dramatically over the last two 40 - > decades, and I've seen that change, but also I would say 41 - > what stayed with me throughout that, and what I'm forever 42 - > grateful for is the editorial instinct. 43 - > So it is the cutting through the jargon, translating kind of 44 - > complex words and systems into plain English, uh, and just 45 - > that's very close to what I I do now with AI. 46 - > SPEAKER_02: So do you remember a particular story or newsroom 47 - > moment when you thought, okay, AI is going to change how we do 48 - > this?

49 - > And maybe what happened to change your mind? 50 - > SPEAKER_01: Over the last few decades, one thing that's 51 - > cropped up regularly is the UK budget and having to report on 52 - > that every year, and it was always always sort of a slightly 53 - > dreaded day for financial journalists. 54 - > And the pace at which you have to unpick these huge government 55 - > documents and all the news and report it is so fast, and the 56 - > pressure is immense. 57 - > And I think what changed for me was realizing that AI could, you 58 - > know, I could find the information that I needed in 59 - > these huge documents extremely fast, and just do that research 60 - > in a way that I hadn't been able to do before, that would I would 61 - > have seen me flicking through dozens of tabs on my desktop and 62 - > trying to pick up the phone and find somebody who could decipher 63 - > something for me.

64 - > And so that that was really what changed was the budget where I 65 - > thought, wow, okay, this is really going to change how we 66 - > all work. 67 - > SPEAKER_02: You've got a copy of my book, and you know that I 68 - > turned the book into an AI model. 69 - > Basically, it learnt that. 70 - > I'm wondering in the future if governments are going to be 71 - > smart enough to say, here are the budget papers, but here's a 72 - > link to an AI that will allow you to interrogate it.

73 - > Would that change how journalists do their job? 74 - > SPEAKER_01: That's a very intelligent use of AI as well, 75 - > and I feel like we're just at the foothills of it at the 76 - > moment. 77 - > This is how how it needs to change to be able to help us do 78 - > our jobs better. 79 - > SPEAKER_02: So, how did the classic skills of a journalist 80 - > under a deadline, you know, pressure, scepticism, speed and 81 - > judgment prepare you for working in a world of AI?

82 - > SPEAKER_01: I think they've been invaluable really in terms of 83 - > particularly sort of scepticism and the critical mindset, which 84 - > is ingrained in you as a journalist, or if it's not at 85 - > first, it definitely becomes so. 86 - > It's really shaped how I work with AI and enabled me to stop 87 - > and sit back and unpick and ask questions at the right time. 88 - > When I'm training teams, when I'm training journalists and 89 - > PRs, it's really brings that critical mindset to it.

90 - > And I'm so grateful now for my backgrounds now that AI is here 91 - > because I think it's really helped. 92 - > SPEAKER_02: Now I'm still surprised that sort of three 93 - > years after ChatGPT launched onto the stage, that I still am 94 - > asked to go into organisations and explain why they should be 95 - > doing AI. 96 - > Where has the scepticism changed? 97 - > And in 2026, are you seeing an uptip where journalists, 98 - > newsrooms, and editors are going, okay, this is changing 99 - > the landscape.

100 - > We need to know more, and thus you're getting busier and 101 - > busier. 102 - > SPEAKER_01: I've seen a real shift in the past year, I would 103 - > say, in terms of initial burying heads in the sand, skeptics like 104 - > this is this, you know, just have to make a basic policy that 105 - > doesn't cover the half of it, really, and journalists 106 - > fundamentally shunning AI, to be completely honest, and and 107 - > there's a lot of fear around it. 108 - > And then I would say the last year there's been a huge shift, 109 - > and still the fear and skepsism there, which I think is healthy 110 - > and a natural part of be, you know, being in the media, but 111 - > also a willingness to embrace it and find out curiosity, as which 112 - > is what drew me to your book.

113 - > Um, you know, it is curiosity at the heart of it, and like how 114 - > can this actually help us? 115 - > And and case studies of case studies coming out of how it's 116 - > really fundamentally helping journalism in ways that maybe 117 - > journalists didn't realise. 118 - > SPEAKER_02: What's probably the most groundbreaking revelation 119 - > that you've seen in a case study that an editor or a journalist 120 - > has done where you've gone, I need to let everyone else know 121 - > about that.

122 - > This is going to revolutionise how you get your job done. 123 - > SPEAKER_01: There's lots of inspirational, bigger stories. 124 - > For example, I mean, there's quite a number, the New York 125 - > Times digging into the manosphere and into and 126 - > investigating that in a way it couldn't before. 127 - > Again, it's all about data.

128 - > There was a case actually I really loved, which is a lot 129 - > smaller, but it really hit home in that a couple of Swedish 130 - > journalists who are digging into a 40-year-old coal case of a 131 - > prime minister who was assassinated. 132 - > You know, the case has never been solved, and they're using 133 - > AI to go through decades of data, and they're doing a 134 - > podcast of their and tracking their journey with this data to 135 - > to uncover this coal case.

136 - > And I love that because that's just a couple of journalists 137 - > doing something different with AI. 138 - > And then you've got bigger examples like obviously the 139 - > Epstein files. 140 - > It's been fundamental in how AI is being used for that. 141 - > There's so many different ways, though, that AI can be used, and 142 - > I and I love trying to inspire journalists to actually just 143 - > take control of this technology a bit and use it to our 144 - > advantage and get back to the heart of real journalism.

145 - > SPEAKER_02: Is there a trait that journalists, and you talk 146 - > about the skepticism, where are the barriers? 147 - > Where do they go? 148 - > This is my red line, and I'm not crossing it, and you help them 149 - > cross that line. 150 - > SPEAKER_01: I think it's writing, obviously.

151 - > Uh, in terms of most journalists think, oh, AI, it's threatening 152 - > our jobs because it it can essentially spit out coherent 153 - > text. 154 - > But where I try to help them cross the line is from seeing it 155 - > as a threat to an opportunity to do the mechanical parts of their 156 - > job. 157 - > So it can really take away the grind. 158 - > I mean, and there's a lot of grind in journalism and the the 159 - > speed and the pressure and release some of that so you can 160 - > get back to the real reporting and the heart of what 161 - > journalists love to do, which is you know, ask the right 162 - > questions, think about the right questions, find the right 163 - > people, get actually out and about and and in the real world 164 - > and actually dig into stories that way, which is what you 165 - > know, when I started, that's what we were doing.

166 - > I was getting stories over lunch with a contact, and that has 167 - > fundamentally changed journalists tied to their desks, 168 - > they're trying to churn out so much copy. 169 - > So it's really trying to see, trying to encourage that, yes, 170 - > some of the basic, just generic um reporting is now being done 171 - > in some places by AI. 172 - > But let's think about the more interesting stories, the human 173 - > stories, the investigative stories, the contextual data 174 - > analysis.

175 - > That is where journalists can now lean into that. 176 - > So that's I try to show them that. 177 - > SPEAKER_02: It's interesting. 178 - > I met with Andrew Hill, who's one of the um financial 179 - > journalists, and he was writing about business books, and he was 180 - > led to my book, and we talked about the fact that I've got AI 181 - > in the book.

182 - > And as he was writing, I noticed he was writing in shorthand. 183 - > In fact, he's written a book about shorthand, so he's a real 184 - > proponent of that, and I love that. 185 - > But I wonder whether journalists are now going, well, 186 - > transcription tools, and I use Otter, where you not only have a 187 - > perfect transcript of what is said from both sides. 188 - > And and I suppose if you're writing notes, you're getting 189 - > almost all of the nuance.

190 - > But because you have every syllable and transcript and you 191 - > can interrogate that syllable, a journalist moving over to say, 192 - > Yeah, shorthand's great, but this actually gives me another 193 - > level of detail around the interview. 194 - > SPEAKER_01: There's so many transcription tools there, and 195 - > you've re you've mentioned Otta, which is one that journalists 196 - > often mention to me. 197 - > You can dig into mountains of transcripts. 198 - > I remember another example of the New York Times, you know, 199 - > 500 hours of leaked uh interview election interference calls and 200 - > transcripts and digging into that kind of thing to find story 201 - > angles.

202 - > That took weeks, in which would have taken years before AI. 203 - > So there's things like that. 204 - > Making sure you use the right tool, because I have noticed 205 - > that you have to be careful with the transcription tools that 206 - > they are accurate, and that is an issue when you're working at 207 - > speed, I think. 208 - > SPEAKER_02: What's your go-to tool for transcription?

209 - > SPEAKER_01: I think Otter is pretty good. 210 - > Granola is one I like as well. 211 - > Grain is is very good and accurate. 212 - > There are so many, but yeah, there's Trint as well, which is 213 - > a specific journalist-focused one, which I've recommended uh 214 - > quite a bit.

215 - > SPEAKER_02: I get asked all the time on stage why do I use 216 - > perplexity and why do you use Otter? 217 - > I'm kind of beholden to them. 218 - > As you know, the book has 60 podcast interviews, and all 219 - > those interviews are transcribed. 220 - > So I have hundreds, if not thousands, maybe tenths of 221 - > thousands of hours of transcription in that one tool, 222 - > which means I can go through everything.

223 - > And I'm kind of beholden to that, and perplexity is the 224 - > same, my workflows are in there. 225 - > That's a risk, I suppose, of relying on one particular tool. 226 - > How do you advise journalists and PR firms about what tools 227 - > they should use, or is it down to what they're allowed to use? 228 - > SPEAKER_01: I would always recommend start with a couple of 229 - > things.

230 - > One is start with your goal, like really define your goal. 231 - > Don't start with a tool, start with a goal and work backwards 232 - > as to what you're trying to achieve. 233 - > Then think about the model. 234 - > They are very variable.

235 - > They all essentially do lots of the similar things but 236 - > differently. 237 - > And the other thing from to your point just there about 238 - > organizing your work around AI is a real problem, I think, at 239 - > the moment. 240 - > And I always advise journalists and PRs to set up, I mean, it's 241 - > a really basic sister, but like say set up folders. 242 - > Make sure everything is actually saved somewhere, don't chuck it 243 - > into an AI tool and then save it in a lot, you know, a chat GPT 244 - > project and then don't store your transcripts somewhere else.

245 - > That's dangerous territory. 246 - > SPEAKER_02: So we talked about journalists, you obviously help 247 - > PRs as well. 248 - > Where is the PR industry moving with AI? 249 - > Again, I would imagine they're also feeling a bit threatened by 250 - > what the tools can do.

251 - > SPEAKER_01: We're at the stage now where lots of different 252 - > firms are at so many different stages. 253 - > And I see the other day I was with a PR firm who wanted to 254 - > design a bespoke tool. 255 - > So I talk through very much the process of what tool might be 256 - > really good for them, whether it's you know, sort of case 257 - > study, like how they can help journalists as well using AI to 258 - > better find, you know, credible experts and reliable case 259 - > studies, um, the angles that they might want to pitch for 260 - > their clients, um, and also just different ways of presenting 261 - > data to their clients as well.

262 - > Uh so there's they're moving towards more sort of bespoke 263 - > tools for their firms, but also some are still at the starting 264 - > stages and some are um naturally very skeptical. 265 - > Again, there's a lot of skepticism in PR around around 266 - > AI as well. 267 - > Uh, but yeah, there's all different types of use cases, 268 - > and but it is a way, like you've just like you said, about 269 - > organizing all these mountains of different forms of data into 270 - > different client workflows and being able to produce assets.

271 - > Um so you know, you might have been able to produce some kind 272 - > of static, you know, document for your clients of uh your 273 - > clock coverage update, but now you can produce interactive 274 - > dashboards and and spit out five different versions of content uh 275 - > from one piece. 276 - > SPEAKER_02: Now part of the issue is being found. 277 - > So if you're a company with a PR firm, you want a journalist to 278 - > find the content. 279 - > I don't think you can just rely on the press release going to a 280 - > journalist these days.

281 - > What I found in my own business is that more and more people are 282 - > now finding me through AI tools, you know, find me the best AI 283 - > speaker in London. 284 - > So what I did is I use AI to reverse engineer that. 285 - > I thought, well, how can I be found? 286 - > What I've worked out, and this is massively oversimplifying, 287 - > and I'd love your view on this, is that AI tools love answers to 288 - > questions.

289 - > So I've now structured a lot of my speaking website in terms of 290 - > FAQs, deliberately having, for example, my bio rather than a 291 - > whole lot of text. 292 - > There are sort of 15 drop-downs. 293 - > So you click on that, you know, uh tell me more about Andrew. 294 - > It does two things.

295 - > Makes it easy for the user to find what they want rather than 296 - > reading everything. 297 - > But secondly, the underlying schema that is there is AI 298 - > friendly. 299 - > So I did something quite cheeky, and the AI suggested this. 300 - > It said uh one of the questions you should have an answer for is 301 - > who's the best AI speaker in the UK and Europe?

302 - > That's a question. 303 - > The answer is there are many great speakers in the UK and 304 - > Europe. 305 - > Andrew Grill is known for blah blah blah. 306 - > So I just wonder whether AI will pick that up because it's the 307 - > answer to the question is who's the best speaker?

308 - > And the answer is Andrew Grill. 309 - > Blah blah blah. 310 - > W what what's your view on being found with AI tools and whether 311 - > that's a good strategy or not? 312 - > SPEAKER_01: I think that's a very good strategy.

313 - > And as you say, like it's not, I think the way to think about it 314 - > is to sometimes people ask me, like, what can I, how do I 315 - > structure, how do I write for AI? 316 - > How do I structure it so I'm found in AI answers? 317 - > And it is, as you say, like actually test AI, like pressure 318 - > test AI to see what it's already surfacing in its answers and 319 - > work backwards. 320 - > That is one of the best ways to work with AI to actually get 321 - > your goal.

322 - > So yeah, QA's and being clear. 323 - > I mean, a lot of the good SEO practices still apply to AI. 324 - > And I think because the the ways these models work uh are being 325 - > tweaked all the time and their their training is being changed, 326 - > it it there's no one clear answer, but that sounds like a 327 - > pretty sensible approach. 328 - > SPEAKER_02: So are you finding that journalists are now going 329 - > to AI to find experts or people for stories alongside the old 330 - > way of picking up the phone or talking to sources?

331 - > Is that becoming another thing that companies and PRs need to 332 - > be aware of? 333 - > SPEAKER_01: Definitely, and actually that's part of my 334 - > journalist training is is how you can create a system within 335 - > AI, whatever model you're using, to track a story. 336 - > Um, and that and include it in that is finding new experts. 337 - > There is a risk with that, and this is something that I think 338 - > is still emerging and still being solved, is fake experts.

339 - > There's been tons in the media around fake experts is a real 340 - > problem, and journalists are very wary now unless they can 341 - > speak to somebody, look at that, like really check that they are 342 - > a real person, because it that there have been quite a few 343 - > slip-ups with that, as I'm sure you're aware, isn't it? 344 - > Yeah, it's quite terrifying, really. 345 - > But yes, definitely. 346 - > I I mean I think it's a brilliant source of 347 - > interrogating material and finding new angles and experts 348 - > and sources.

349 - > SPEAKER_02: So you developed a structured way of teaching AI to 350 - > journalists and communicators, frameworks rather than tips and 351 - > tricks. 352 - > What's missing in the way AI was being introduced that pushed you 353 - > to formalise your own approach? 354 - > SPEAKER_01: It was basically people chucking prompts into 355 - > whatever model they were using and ending up with a complete 356 - > mess of different chats around and not being able to then find 357 - > what they're looking for and not really knowing what they were 358 - > doing either.

359 - > So I th, you know, and that's how I started, you know, you 360 - > start by experimenting. 361 - > Um, and I experimented a lot and soon realized that I needed a 362 - > systematic approach. 363 - > And that's where I also saw the gap between, you know, how media 364 - > teams were working and this new technology, and that actually it 365 - > is about redefining workflows and working out where AI slots 366 - > into the process from research, pitch, you know, drafting, 367 - > editing, publication, and beyond.

368 - > Literally mapping out, like taking it back to basics and 369 - > working out how you can structure because there is no 370 - > one way of necessarily using AI in the right way. 371 - > And I always say this in my sessions everybody's using it 372 - > slightly differently, but there are systematic approaches you 373 - > can take. 374 - > And again, starting with your goal and working backwards, not 375 - > trying to just scatter gun your approach. 376 - > SPEAKER_02: I play this video from John Rose, who's the Dell 377 - > CTO and chief AI officer.

378 - > I was in the front row of a talk he gave nearly two years ago, 379 - > and I'm still playing that video because in that he says 380 - > something that's so crystal clear. 381 - > First thing he says is, What problem are you solving? 382 - > So maybe I don't need to use AI. 383 - > And the second thing he says, and and and and companies that 384 - > you're training should also think about this: what makes me 385 - > or what makes us special?

386 - > Why would someone care about this? 387 - > Is it news? 388 - > Is it information? 389 - > Is it a genuinely interesting story?

390 - > And when you can ask those two questions, then you can say, 391 - > Well, should I use AI? 392 - > And then how do I use AI? 393 - > So those two questions for both sides, the the journalist and 394 - > the comms professional, how important do you think they are? 395 - > SPEAKER_01: I think it's extremely important to, and more 396 - > important than ever, actually, to really get into your client 397 - > or your reader's shoes.

398 - > Um, because fundamentally, you know, we're talking about super 399 - > sophisticated machines here, and actually this is we've got to 400 - > lean into our value as the humans actually in this world 401 - > now. 402 - > And what is that value? 403 - > This crash has kept me up at night, you know. 404 - > Like, what's it mean to be human now?

405 - > Like, what what what do we bring to the table? 406 - > What makes us valuable? 407 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I get asked all the time, you know, Andrew, 408 - > will AI take my job? 409 - > And I've worked out a narrative to to push back on that.

410 - > Look at the job you do, look at the job I do, think listeners, 411 - > think of the job you do, and slice it into a series of tasks, 412 - > the things that you do every day, and then look at the tasks 413 - > that you can automate and the things you don't like doing. 414 - > And I actually said this to a group of hairdressers from 415 - > Weller in January. 416 - > I said, focus on what you love and automate the rest. 417 - > And what you love is what makes you human, what gives you that 418 - > empathy, what really makes you chase that story or be the 419 - > storyteller.

420 - > The rest can be automated. 421 - > So, to your point, what do you think on both sides of 422 - > journalists and comms professional, what's the stuff 423 - > that they should keep because they love doing it? 424 - > SPEAKER_01: And I do think it comes back to relationships, and 425 - > and that's what when I started in journalism, it was all about 426 - > developing these relationships, PR and journalist relationships, 427 - > which you kind of lost over the years because of technology, the 428 - > I, you know, because of the emails and the and the ways that 429 - > we communicate now on social media or LinkedIn or whatever it 430 - > is.

431 - > And I I think it's that intuition, empathy, uh, it's 432 - > that ability to sit across a table from somebody and notice a 433 - > shift in their tone or their body language. 434 - > Often I've just felt like something's off, or actually 435 - > there's a there's a I've had an idea, I've been out and about 436 - > talking, it's often in conversation with somebody. 437 - > And that is a specific, it's human conversation. 438 - > It is not a conversation with an AI that necess that will spark 439 - > the best ideas and investigations and campaigns as 440 - > well, because it's really putting yourself in the reader's 441 - > shoes and thinking, is this interesting?

442 - > What would I want to know? 443 - > What did they want to know? 444 - > What's going to resonate? 445 - > And I just don't think an AI can do that.

446 - > SPEAKER_02: And there's those relationships, go back to Andrew 447 - > Hill. 448 - > Uh he was referred to me by my editor actually. 449 - > They were met at a book fair, and he said, Any examples of 450 - > business books that are do something different? 451 - > And uh my my editor said, Yeah, you should talk to Andrew Grill.

452 - > And actually, uh Andrew and I were gonna uh have a video call, 453 - > and I worked out I was at a conference that was literally 454 - > one street away from the FT offices. 455 - > So let's meet. 456 - > We spent 50 minutes together, and I'm not sure how many people 457 - > get to spend 50 minutes with the FT. 458 - > We had a great discussion.

459 - > I talked about his book, I talked about what I was doing, 460 - > he asked me a bunch of questions. 461 - > I think we built a relationship, and he also knew about me 462 - > because he was sent my book years ago when it came out. 463 - > So I think that's so important investing the time because you 464 - > can't replicate that with AI. 465 - > Um, and I hit one other thing he said, uh, which I anyone, anyone 466 - > who is an author or an aspiring author, he said, your book is 467 - > the heaviest business card you'll ever have.

468 - > And he was so right. 469 - > Um, the book that I gave you, I'm sure you've spoken to people 470 - > about it. 471 - > You thankfully left a review on Amazon. 472 - > Um, that is a calling card that that is a relationship that you 473 - > can't replace.

474 - > SPEAKER_01: And the more I experiment with AI, the more I 475 - > crave books. 476 - > I think it's really I've craved that printed page. 477 - > I've been reading more than ever, and yeah, your book's just 478 - > behind me now. 479 - > Uh on my my shelf of AI books.

480 - > SPEAKER_02: So, how has your own view of what's uniquely human in 481 - > journalism evolved? 482 - > Is there anything you now happily outsourced to AI you 483 - > once considered a core human skill? 484 - > SPEAKER_01: This is going to sound probably a bit odd to some 485 - > people, but I use an AI tool called Whisperflow and I voice 486 - > dictate a lot. 487 - > And I used to think that that messy first draft as a 488 - > journalist was where all my, you know, the the blank page was 489 - > where all my thinking took place.

490 - > But now I do work very differently in that I will brain 491 - > dump my ideas from my head onto a blank sheet of paper using 492 - > Whisperflow, just dictating. 493 - > And then often I will go away, do something else, cut and then 494 - > come back to it and sort it out from there. 495 - > Because and then I find that AI can really help me structure my 496 - > thinking. 497 - > My brain is the type of brain that shoots off in a million 498 - > directions at the same time.

499 - > And I have lots and lots of different ideas, and I often 500 - > can't get them out all at once and coherently. 501 - > So I feel like it's been really helpful for that. 502 - > And I know other writers would say differently, they would say, 503 - > you know, I can't, I couldn't possibly. 504 - > Work without that.

505 - > The bat the wrestling with the blank page and the writing is 506 - > the thinking, which I agree that writing is thinking, but you can 507 - > do that at different stages. 508 - > So that's how uh yeah, I never thought I would be saying, Oh, I 509 - > use an AI dictation tool to structure my thinking. 510 - > SPEAKER_02: You would have read in the book. 511 - > I started my book Journey back in 2009.

512 - > I wrote a book called Twitter for Business. 513 - > And I push back for years and years because I had a problem 514 - > with that blank canvas. 515 - > I didn't know how to start. 516 - > And my agent Michael Levy about seven years ago said, Why don't 517 - > you start a podcast?

518 - > And then maybe the guests on the podcast can actually make it 519 - > into the book. 520 - > But what I did with those 60 interviews, I had about half a 521 - > million words to play with that were all transcribed. 522 - > So my thing was I didn't have a blank page, I had a very messy 523 - > page. 524 - > And then what I could do was structure that to say, here's 525 - > why I think I should be curious about this.

526 - > Here's an expert, here's some commentary, and here's what I 527 - > think as well. 528 - > And actually that helped me get the book out really quickly, but 529 - > I had to use AI because having 60 hours of podcasts, there's no 530 - > way I could have gone through all that. 531 - > So in a way, we're quite similar, but I needed the words 532 - > on the page to then move them around, like a jigsaw puzzle you 533 - > throw on the ground, wear all the blue sky, and then move it 534 - > all around to you have the blue sky there.

535 - > SPEAKER_01: And it's quite a fun way of working, I find. 536 - > Like I and I I like to just let it settle as well. 537 - > I'll come back to it and come back to it, but AI really helps 538 - > me get all my thoughts out there and my ideas out there in a way 539 - > that I think I couldn't before. 540 - > SPEAKER_02: So you talked about the problem with fake experts, 541 - > and I'm seeing more and more of that, and and hopefully you can 542 - > weed them out and journalists can allow to weed them out.

543 - > But do you think audiences still care whether a piece was touched 544 - > by AI? 545 - > Or is the new standard simply, can I trust this and is it 546 - > genuinely useful? 547 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, they would like to know how it's been used. 548 - > So research, you know, digging into data, telling better 549 - > stories, that's all great.

550 - > I think they just want transparency. 551 - > So it is just a transparency issue, and where I do see 552 - > problems arising is more AI images in journalism. 553 - > So you want to be very careful about use of that. 554 - > They want to know that they're reading genuine, you know, human 555 - > analysis and thoughts.

556 - > The New York Times actually got rid of one of its freelancers. 557 - > Um, you might have seen the story, which um lifted a re book 558 - > review from The Guardian, had used AI essentially, didn't 559 - > realise that AI was spitting out essentially the same review. 560 - > They want to know they're reading authentic work. 561 - > SPEAKER_02: So let's look at lessons for curious 562 - > professionals beyond journalism.

563 - > For someone listening who was not a journalist but works under 564 - > pressure, a lawyer, consultant, or executive, what can they 565 - > borrow from your journey that would help them go from 566 - > deadlines to data in their own world? 567 - > SPEAKER_01: So where I see the power with AI, whatever 568 - > profession you're in, is the combination of AI and human 569 - > expertise. 570 - > So not to lose sight of that. 571 - > And whatever your skill set is, to lean more heavily into that 572 - > and then apply AI to the process and really to have your brain 573 - > engaged at all stages is tempting because AI is obviously 574 - > so fast now that to offload your thinking, and that is a really 575 - > really dangerous territory.

576 - > SPEAKER_02: So if you were editing a front page splash 577 - > about your own journey into AI, what would the headline and 578 - > standfirst say today? 579 - > And what do you hope they will say in five years from now? 580 - > SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go with the silly, a silly headline um 581 - > for something like a tabloid, maybe like hack to the future, 582 - > something like that. 583 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh, I see what you did there.

584 - > Oh, that was obvious. 585 - > SPEAKER_01: Or prompt and circumstance. 586 - > I don't know. 587 - > Um, from print to prompt.

588 - > I'm not naive to the fact that there are so many issues around 589 - > AI, but I'm I also think there's so much potential. 590 - > You know, the and that's where we but we need to lean into the 591 - > potential. 592 - > SPEAKER_02: So I couldn't leave without asking you about the 593 - > next generation of journalists. 594 - > So I see this all the time, and maybe journalists is a little 595 - > bit more immune to it at the moment, but someone coming to 596 - > the workforce fresh, they've now got all these tools in front of 597 - > them.

598 - > What I'm finding is either the jobs are not available for early 599 - > entry people, or they're saying we need to do more with that. 600 - > The podcast I did a couple of weeks ago with Tim Cook, episode 601 - > two of the current series, he is actually an elementary school 602 - > teacher, and I'd recommend people listen to this after 603 - > they've listened to this episode. 604 - > And he sees kids actually, the difference between them leaning 605 - > on AI tools versus not.

606 - > And he pointed to some research in psychology today that said, 607 - > if you're 45 or older and you lean on AI, it's actually okay 608 - > because you've done it before, back to the journalism skills, 609 - > you know how to hunt out a story. 610 - > But if you're under 25, you're really at risk because if you're 611 - > leaning on AI tools for doing your job and we turn off the AI, 612 - > can you still do that? 613 - > Have you learned how to do that? 614 - > Have you engaged your critical thinking?

615 - > What would be your message to young professionals coming into 616 - > the industry and how do they gain the skills? 617 - > And how do we ensure that there are still places for young 618 - > journalists? 619 - > SPEAKER_01: Is something actually that really concerns me 620 - > at the moment, and actually, one of my next newsletters or an AI 621 - > for media newsletter on LinkedIn, I'm going to write 622 - > about that very topic. 623 - > But I've been thinking about this, and my advice would be 624 - > flip your AI use if you can to asking AI to interrogate you.

625 - > Like get it to ask the questions. 626 - > Like you said, like AI is very good at asking, it likes 627 - > questions. 628 - > So get it to ask you questions. 629 - > Start with like what your outline story is and say, like, 630 - > right, now question me so we can get to the heart of what and and 631 - > then you can help your expand your ideas, maybe what your 632 - > angle is, maybe what the story actually is, who you should 633 - > speak to, all these things.

634 - > Rather than letting, I just think don't let AI do the 635 - > thinking for you, make it refine and act as a thought catalyst to 636 - > be able to actually spark that process. 637 - > SPEAKER_02: I use it as a decision partner, and I was 638 - > recently submitting a proposal to a client, and the AI asked 639 - > me, Would you like me to show you how this proposal will land 640 - > emotionally? 641 - > Because it knew that the client was also a friend of 15 years. 642 - > And I hadn't thought about that.

643 - > It then explained that and I looked at that and I thought, 644 - > well, oh, that will land well, that will land well. 645 - > But I hadn't even thought about that treatment in all of my 646 - > years in consulting. 647 - > I never thought about the emotional impact of what you're 648 - > delivering, especially when someone that is the client knows 649 - > you very well. 650 - > SPEAKER_01: And I think this is where AI and where I see its 651 - > power, particularly having worked as a freelance journalist 652 - > for the nationals for a long time in my career.

653 - > I it's like, you know, I found like I had this, I had this, as 654 - > you say, this thought partner, like somebody I could spar with, 655 - > somebody, uh, an AI I could actually have this back and 656 - > forth with that would unpick and help me uncover more of my own 657 - > thinking in and I love that, that you can actually expand 658 - > what you're capable of. 659 - > SPEAKER_02: And because I put all of my work predominantly in 660 - > one AI, it's got a memory there, whether it be in a client space 661 - > or with in the threads that I use, it picks up things.

662 - > It says, because you're the actual futurist, it is if I have 663 - > this long-term 2IC that knows everything about me and it just 664 - > surprises me every single day. 665 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the memory thing is quite when that 666 - > arrived, I think that's changed everything. 667 - > And and it is uncomfortable, but also, yeah, the power of it to 668 - > be able to push you into corners you might not have gone to. 669 - > SPEAKER_02: So we're almost out of time and we're up to my 670 - > favourite part of the show, the quick fire round where we learn 671 - > more about our guests.

672 - > Window or aisle? 673 - > SPEAKER_01: Window. 674 - > Like to look out the window, then go to sleep. 675 - > SPEAKER_02: iPhone or Android?

676 - > SPEAKER_01: iPhone, always. 677 - > SPEAKER_02: Your biggest hope for this year and next? 678 - > SPEAKER_01: That people lean into their human skills and 679 - > uncover their own unique value. 680 - > I wish that AI could do all of my cleaning, cooking, everything 681 - > around the house.

682 - > SPEAKER_02: The first thing I asked ChatGPT. 683 - > SPEAKER_01: I asked it for i consumer finance angles for a 684 - > pension campaign I was working on. 685 - > SPEAKER_02: Is generative AI evolution or revolution? 686 - > SPEAKER_01: Day by day it's an evolution.

687 - > Ultimately, it's going to be a revolution. 688 - > SPEAKER_02: The app you use most on your phone. 689 - > SPEAKER_01: WhatsApp. 690 - > SPEAKER_02: How do you stay digitally curious?

691 - > SPEAKER_01: Constant experimentation and being 692 - > optimistic. 693 - > SPEAKER_02: What's the best piece of advice you've ever 694 - > received? 695 - > SPEAKER_01: My mum actually wrote The Only Time We Have Is 696 - > Now and stuck it on a piece of paper on the fridge and she died 697 - > two weeks later, which is was devastating, but also I've never 698 - > forgotten that. 699 - > And it's great life advice.

700 - > SPEAKER_02: What are you reading at the moment? 701 - > SPEAKER_01: I am reading uh The Infinity Machine, Demis Sabis 702 - > Deep Mind and the Quest for Super Intelligence. 703 - > I bought it the other day, it's quite similar to super 704 - > intelligence, but it's absolutely brilliant. 705 - > I really recommend it.

706 - > Really well written, super interesting. 707 - > SPEAKER_02: Who should I invite next onto the podcast? 708 - > SPEAKER_01: Nick Newman. 709 - > He's super interesting.

710 - > He's a senior research associate at Reuters Institute for the 711 - > Study of Journalism, and he's got some really interesting 712 - > views of how AI is changing news consumption. 713 - > And so how what we're going to take in in this new world. 714 - > SPEAKER_02: How do you want to be remembered? 715 - > SPEAKER_01: As someone who helps people be brave enough to 716 - > embrace change and take risks.

717 - > SPEAKER_02: Harriet, what three actionable things should our 718 - > audience do today to better understand how we can use AI for 719 - > media and corporates? 720 - > SPEAKER_01: First, um, go deep and narrow rather than wide and 721 - > shallow. 722 - > So choose something specific and really whether that's research 723 - > and analysis, um preparing interview questions, whatever it 724 - > is, and really going deep on how AI can help with that process 725 - > and refining it.

726 - > Second, learn the boundaries, so test where it fails, ask it for 727 - > sources, check quotes, put it under pressure, find the gaps so 728 - > you really understand it. 729 - > And third, I'd say build the habit of human review into your 730 - > process. 731 - > So use AI as a thought partner, research partner, thinking 732 - > partner, but keep a human in charge, your editorial judgment 733 - > in charge at all parts of the process. 734 - > SPEAKER_02: Harriet, I knew when we met at News Rewide, you're a 735 - > fascinating person with great insight.

736 - > Even more delighted to have you on the podcast and unpack some 737 - > of those things. 738 - > But how can we find out more about you and your work? 739 - > SPEAKER_01: Search for me on LinkedIn, Harriet Mayer. 740 - > I write an AI for media newsletter and I do lots of 741 - > speaking and training and all sorts of things.

742 - > SPEAKER_02: Harriet, a pleasure. 743 - > SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time today. 744 - > SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much. 745 - > I really enjoyed that.

746 - > SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Digitally Curious. 747 - > You can find all of our previous shows at digitallycurious.ai. 748 - > Until next time, we invite you to stay digitally curious.